Last Will Mafia II (Over)

[Battousai]

Wow, someone else picking up on the fact that Ythan is not confirmed as USING his power nor is town because he HAS a power... Now I haven't read far enough in to get a sense of whether Ythan and/or Richard are scummy from their posts (I've skimmed the thread and I am focusing on vote analysis for D1-D2 right now), but assuming that one of them is lieing is just wrong and then using past read to justify it is wrong. Hell, all of today has been focused on these two players. What about SSBF? IIRC, someone said we can lynch him tomorrow, when the Richard-Ythan votes started coming. There is plenty more to discuss here and waiting for the replacements to respond is the only reason why someone didn't hammer makes me believe that Richard may be town. Votes typically don't come flying in that easily unless it is backed by scum.

[Kmd4390]

Batt, Smash Bras is town.

(and because you just replaced in, you get the benefit of me telling you that that hasn't been confirmed in thread in any way and is just a statement coming from me)

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

RichardGHP (10) - Ythan, Locke Lamora, Super Smash Bros. Fan, Xite91, jahudo, Chronopie
Super Smash Bros. Fan (2) - Amished, rhinox
animorpherv1 (1) - Magua

Not Voting (10) - RichardGHP, holycon, Plum, Charlie, kmd4390, Battosuai, nachomamma8, MichelSableheart, animorpherv1

[Battousai]

Since I don't like telling people to discuss something without giving any of my own input first, I went back to ISO someone who seemed scummy D1- Raider

As town, Raider seems to scumhunt early, which goes against his entire gameplay. However, I can't find him a game where he was scum (and not replaced in), so I can't honestly say this is a scumtell for him or him just deciding to act differently

Raider iso
6) Continues to vote hop, plus saying someone is scum for trying to make a case (seems like a joke, but still)
10) Doesn't believe a claim because it wasn't in the original Last Will.
12) Doesn't want to get reads on people early. Seems like his playstyle so far is to coast and probably hop on a wagon someone else creates
13) Complains about serious posting by Amished. Wants to extend RVS
17) Doesn't want votes passed around (null, as I think some townies may think that would be smart. However, he played in the first last will, so I would think he would know that that wasn't the case)
25) Just noticed he wasn't talking to someone in the game. He really still isn't all too serious about the game here
44) Is ok with lynching an empty slot, but not pressure voting a slot

FOS: Raider (currently Plum)

[Ythan]

If Ythan was blocked, wouldn't he be told that he still has his kill? Ythan, can you clarify whether or not you get to keep your kill if your action is blocked?

I have not received any indication that I still have it.

I can claim if that will help get Richard lynched and is necessary.

[Kmd4390]

Batt, Raider was scum in this game.

Can you link a town game where he scumhunts early?

----------------

Ythan, ask the Mod if you still have the kill. And if you have role related info that shows Richard is scum, share it. If not, no reason to claim.

[Ythan]

PMed the mod.

[Xite91]

Unvote

Just realized something.
Yesterday him and Ythan were speaking cryptically all day yesterday.
If you paid attention, you would notice that Ythan did claim to have a one shot kill.
Multiple people did tell Richard to kill Millar.
Ythan did hint that he was going to kill Millar.
This would have confirmed at least richard as town.
Okay that's the recap.
But hey, scum can be pretty crafty.
For instance, they killed twomz last night, proving that he was an inventor.
Therefore proving Ythan's one-shot.
Next, if they block Richard, they get rid of Ythan's one shot, kill a townie, and line up a lynch for the next day.
I'm going to believe Richard's claim for now.
That being said,

Vote:SSBF

[Battousai]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 21&start=0

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 95&start=0

Both of these are him as town, from the beginning. The scumhunting is much better in those games as compared to here. Also, that scum game you linked to is too different to count, IMO. People play differently when the IC in a newbie game.

Xite- How does

"Multiple people did tell Richard to kill Millar.
Ythan did hint that he was going to kill Millar.
This would have confirmed at least richard as town."

equal

"This would have confirmed at least richard as town."?

Also, reasoning for the SSBF vote?

[Xite91]

Xite- How does

"Multiple people did tell Richard to kill Millar.
Ythan did hint that he was going to kill Millar.
This would have confirmed at least richard as town."

equal

"This would have confirmed at least richard as town."?

Also, reasoning for the SSBF vote?

First question answer;
He would have killed millar without a CC for the kill
Or Millar would have lived and there would be a CC to the kill, proving his role.
I'm just saying this does look a bit like an elaborate plan to get another townie killed, which is why he's cleared in my book for now, though if anyone's looking for a policy lynch, I'm pretty sure who to suggest.

Read my ISO, I already made a case on him.

[Battousai]

1) Thinking back, if Ythan did hint that he would kill millar, why would Richard-town try to protect millar?

2) "Does look a bit like..." is good enough for you to call someone confirmed town? Isn't there also a decent chance that Richard lied about his role and is fakeclaiming to have killed millar?

If richard is scum, then I speculate that Xite is also scum.

[MichelSableheart]

Read a couple more pages, but still am not caught up.

#769 and #847 are good examples of Ythan announcing intent to vig millar, given that Twomz announced he had given one shot vig to Ythan during the beginning of day 2.

Hopefully I'll be able to better catch up tomorrow.

[Xite91]

1) Thinking back, if Ythan did hint that he would kill millar, why would Richard-town try to protect millar?

2) "Does look a bit like..." is good enough for you to call someone confirmed town? Isn't there also a decent chance that Richard lied about his role and is fakeclaiming to have killed millar?

If richard is scum, then I speculate that Xite is also scum.

1) Because he was told to? Also, if Millar ended up alive, then we would have confirmed Richard as town.
2) It's a good chance, but I'd like to give it one more night to see, instead of a PR mislynch, besides, the way that night happenings went down, it just looks like the whole thing is a big set up

[Plum]

Reread. I'm going to be taking notes here and rolling with it.

Nacho's first post is good, feels slightly Town over null.

Kmd, are you scum? I don't trust myself to read you, and irrational as it is I feel better asking this question than not.

EGL's post here gives me meh vibes. It seems pokey and proddy suggesting scumtells on people Kmd had scumvibes on without committing an opinion to it either way.

Kmd why the scum vibe on Twomz and Nacho? Is it because they voted for each other during RVS? I once read that scum will sometimes do that as an early form of distancing. Is this what you're seeing or is it something else?

SSBF stating that his vote was applying pressure as he added it feels off. I'm under the impression (and this is colored by a recent Marathon game in which SSBF flipped scum, so I think theer's at least a distant behavioral relationship between both) that SSBF is over-explainy about his votes as scum, feeling the need to justfy his votes and overcompensating, and I'm getting that feeling about his post here:

Unvote, Vote: Raider

You didn't even explain this vote at all.

FoS: Charlie

Oh schnap.

I think we're already out of RVS, so I'm going to take this as an OMGUS reply.

I'm starting to dislike Diacria. Will be willing to apply some pressure.

Unvote, Vote: Diacria

Then again Xite is a bit late still doing RVS shenanigans, wondering "if Dia will hammer his own wagon" and voting him. I'm confused - if Dia actually got on Xite's scumlist for saying he'd hammer any wagon that got to L-1, then it ought to have been mentioned before; if Dia got on by contadicting that, saying he wouldn't selfhammer, the explanation that Dia won't hammer someone he knows to be Town (which Xite said was "all [her] needed to hear) ought to have taken Dia off the scumlist. here's to Xite toying around with a popularish early wagon and seeing how hard it will be to get on, stay on, or slither into a position where she can say she had prior suspicion on Dia. Suspicion which makes no sense. VOTE: Xite. This vote subject to change as reading continues.

I don't blame anyone for finding my predecessor annoying at this point in my read. Or Shattered Viewpoint - man, I never remembered him playing like this, even early in a game - ut then he's flipped Town, so.

Dislike Richard trying to say that RVS should last longer than 5 pages, esp. in a Large Theme. Uh, no. No and no again as well. However long the random stage lasts, deal with it while trying to move swiftly but unhurridly into the main phase of the game. Don't try to stall it or wish it lasted longer. WHY?

He could still have a post restriction.

An RVS quickhammer happens once in a blue moon.

We can't scumhunt without a decent RVS. For the record, 5 pages does not a decent RVS make. Especially in a LTG.

So basically...some of your scum partners are currently be voted for, so if we go random long enough they will get out the cross fire.
SCUM!

unvote Vote:RichardGHP!

This might actually be true. I'm not sure, but this is the best millar stuff I've seen yet.

Charlie seems slip-underthe-radar-ish. Will attempt to keep tabs on that as the game progresses. In other news, Richard nudges the sleeping beast that mentioning the word Jester - I don't especially like it. Little things on Richard, then, maybe; that last bit is hard to read. Chrono's late entrance is underwhelming in a slightly scummy way - little in the way of attempting real comments or analysis. EGL uis hung up on the thing he was talking about with Kmd discussed in my quote from him above. How long, I wonder, will he continue to beat this dead horse while pretending it counts as actual content? And then switch back to RVS mode when that's what some of the other players who are actually posting are doing? Big bad suspicions at EGL, then. I kinda get good vibes off Reverse Simplicity's first post plus Millar vote, though; the tone is of uninformed majority still digesting eight pages full of much random crud and not enough immediately useful content - just seems honest, the first post or two of his. Chevre's first post slightly scummish, noncommital. I like Amished, but unsure what he saw in Richard's reactions to Kmd's fake daykill.

@Amished

, what bugged you about Richard's reaction to Kmd's fake daykill?

Twomz' play as Inventor coming out early is verily not such a great idea. But. Let's see who sees te Town motivation thar first and who tries to exploit it and argue further for a Twomz lynch, and who's too scared to question and goes along with it without sharing critical thinking?

Pittbunny ... rolefishes? Hard to say. Amished seems clean. Shatterd either misses it or ignores it or doesn't ave time to touch it at first.

In other news, Richard is HELLA DEFENSIVE on Amished's early vote on him, ignores Twomz's semi-claim.

Charlie uses RVS jokes to avoid answering legit questions. BAD.

Yeah, since we can't find out whether kmd lied or not until the end of the day,

unvote vote: ShatteredViewpoint

until he quits his antics or confirms that he has a Post Restriction.

This is about the only noteworthy post in the whole thread. danakillsu wants to find out whether kmd lied about his pretend daykill ability, but he's voting to lynch the target of the alleged daykill, thus making it impossible to figure out if KMD lied.

vote: danakillsu

Clever Rhinox. AND it's a vote on a lurker, too. Put dana on the scummish list then.

SSBF advocates possibly policy lynching Millar, doesn't vote him. Gauging reaction to the idea, see if Town will go along with it at all or not. Disliking that on his part. Also disliking the continued explanations on votes - I'm not against explaining votes, obviously, but again I'm getting overtones of scum-SSBF's need to justify his votes - the list form here in particular reminds me again of the Marathon game where he was scum -

Conclusion: I like my vote on Diacria. He doesn't explain his suspicions or votes, frequently changes votes which gives me the feeling that he's bandwagoning, and is active lurking to death. Very few of his posts can even be considered acceptable. From this, I think he's a good Day 1 lynch and my vote will stay on him.

You're just listing tons of the "stereotypical" or "classic" or whateveryou call it scumtells (wagonning/no explanations, etc.) that aren't scumtells. I'm guessing the same deal for the rest of the peoples you listed.

That too - the scumtells SSBF lists seem slightly canned, as if they're not coming from actual consideration of whether the actions are coming from a Townie or not.

EGL remains noncommital.

You know, again I'm going to use the term throwing spaghetti cuz i really like it. Youre putting out all sorts of information about all sorts of people without saying much about any of it and seeing what sticks.

THEN you decide to tunnel Dia in your next obscene wall post which is all i seem to see from you

This seems Town from Xite, and makes a good point. Actually very little SSBF says in his first wallpost about Diacria is related to his conclusion about Diacria . . . well, I'll hold the thought then, I suppose, on Xite's alignment.

Suspicion towards EGL

Any particular reason?

Yes.

I felt that you were trying to at the very least undermine another players town list (why would you care? If you feel somebody is scum you go after them regardless of who else likes or dislikes them. (http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p2344811)

Secondly, the post right after that I feel you're trying to fish for how to look townie to Diacria; which isn't something that I believe a townie would ask.

Good posting; helps consolidate some scumdar stuff I was feeling on EGL in addition to what I've said so far. I suppose he and SSBF are tied for my top suspect slot at this point, give or take. UNVOTE: Xite VOTE: EGL

SSBF: Why did you ask millar to claim?

And this on SSBF as well. Chevre is lurking and then poking his finger trying to stir up trouble . . . I'd be calling out my predecessor heavily, but I know his alignement and such sooooo. I'll just have to apologize for him again, mkay? Also I think Xite's response to SSBF's response cements a Town read there. Rhinox seems Town as well, nice catch on SSBF pushing for a Millar claim after his soft/fakeclaim. Charlie, however, remains useless and skirts around the edges of real conversation and scumhunting. Stll attempts under-the-radar, though Aished (also Towniesh) rightly is poking and prodding him. Good man.

MORE LATER.

Oh wait I didn't notice EGL died and flipped Town.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Given the two claims on the death of millar13, right now I'm leaning toward Ythan. Granted, it doesn't confirm him as town as Kmd4390 pointed out, but given Ythan's more towny play over RichardGHP's very scummy play, plus that I can see more town motivations for Ythan to kill millar13, I'm inclined to believe that Ythan killed millar13 over RichardGHP. Of course one of them being role blocked can be an acceptable explanation, but I feel that RichardGHP killed millar13 for town creds just so he can survive another day.

SSBF, you're an idiot if you don't know/understand why anybody with an ability to kill wouldn't target anybody but millar. You even suggested yesterday that a vig should target millar. Now you question why millar is a target? I don't get it.

If RichardGHP is indeed a vig of some sort, he should have at least given a reason for killing RichardGHP. He deliberately said he did not want to explain why he killed millar13. Most townies would not want to intentionally avoid such question because we could have potentially seen hs own reasons for killing millar13 and we would have gotten more information out of it.

You were clearly just fine with allowing an EGL lynch to happen yesterday. Now, you're quite sure it was scum driven?

You can say that a person can be a decent lynch but that does not mean people jumping into it can't be scums on it. I was fine with an EGL lynch Day 2 because I thought he was scummy, but I do believe there were scums in it trying to find a good place to put their vote in without really commiting much to it.

[Xite91]

Given the two claims on the death of millar13, right now I'm leaning toward Ythan. Granted, it doesn't confirm him as town as Kmd4390 pointed out, but given Ythan's more towny play over RichardGHP's very scummy play, plus that I can see more town motivations for Ythan to kill millar13, I'm inclined to believe that Ythan killed millar13 over RichardGHP. Of course one of them being role blocked can be an acceptable explanation, but I feel that RichardGHP killed millar13 for town creds just so he can survive another day.

Would you like to point out the BLARING contradiction here, or shall I?

[Charlie]

Plum, that was really strange posting at the end bit.

[Plum]

Yeah, sorry, I had only kept track of some of the people who'd flipped Town and missed one or two (which was why I barely commented on Diacria and such). I was kicked off the computer, otherwise I'd at least have put in an UNVOTE: EGL VOTE: SSBF

I know there's Richard-vs.-Ythan-gate; I'll get to it soon.

[Amished]

Shit, lost a post.

@Batt: why would scum-ythan claim to kill millar if he didn't in the first place (and if he got a kill, why would he-scum waste in on millar?

@Plum: I didn't like how Richard decided to obv-fake claim after it was revealed that KMD didn't have a day-kill; especially after ignoring the daykill post twice before the "no scene posted" thing by Llama.

[Battousai]

Amished- If he thought Richard was going to kill millar, he could save the vig kill, but still claim credit for the kill (relying on some townie reads on him, having said he would do it, and scum powers that would explain why he and Richard would both be town). If he was scum, I don't think he would kill millar when there are other targets that would go unnoticed. The only reason I see that he would, would be to get the town to focus away from a scum partner.

Xite91- "Because he was told to? Also, if Millar ended up alive, then we would have confirmed Richard as town." Yes, but town would have wasted a vig kill (2 if Richard is town), and millar would have ended up lynched (probably) and then Richard would be NK'd for being "confirmed." Also, isoing you turned up a quote from richard where he said he would not be the town slave and would not have his actions dictated by a random townie.

"It's a good chance, but I'd like to give it one more night to see, instead of a PR mislynch, besides, the way that night happenings went down, it just looks like the whole thing is a big set up"

You go from Richard is a liar, lynch him (4th on a counterclaim wagon)! To a Richard is confirmed town. To a let's give Richard one more night to see.

Now, I'm not even sure if I can that if Richard is scum then you are scum. You are scum, regardless.

vote: Xite91

[Amished]

Amished- If he thought Richard was going to kill millar, he could save the vig kill, but still claim credit for the kill (relying on some townie reads on him, having said he would do it, and scum powers that would explain why he and Richard would both be town). If he was scum, I don't think he would kill millar when there are other targets that would go unnoticed. The only reason I see that he would, would be to get the town to focus away from a scum partner.

Ahh, so you believe that Ythan (if scum) didn't use his one-shot at all?

[Battousai]

If I was Ythan-scum, I'd hold onto it for as long as I could. I don't believe Ythan-scum would not be in any danger of being lynched today or NK'd tomorrow. I would have used it to add confusion nearer to end game.

[Xite91]

Xite91- "Because he was told to? Also,

if Millar ended up alive, then we would have confirmed Richard as town.

" Yes, but town would have wasted a vig kill (2 if Richard is town), and millar would have ended up lynched (probably) and then Richard would be NK'd for being "confirmed." Also, isoing you turned up a quote from richard where he said he would not be the town slave and would not have his actions dictated by a random townie.

"It's a good chance, but I'd like to give it one more night to see, instead of a PR mislynch, besides, the way that night happenings went down, it just looks like the whole thing is a big set up"

You go from Richard is a liar, lynch him (4th on a counterclaim wagon)! To a Richard is confirmed town. To a let's give Richard one more night to see.

Now, I'm not even sure if I can that if Richard is scum then you are scum. You are scum, regardless.

vote: Xite91

I did believe he was until I realized that twomz was also NK'd
I never said I confirmed Richard as town, but that if other circumstances had happened, he would be confirmed town.
My point was that it all looked too... set up, because millar DID die and because so did Twomz, who turned up inventor, proving Ythan's one-shot, and millar died, which means one of a few things;
Ythan is scum and did not use the one shot, let Millar die and CC'd it, while directed the scum NK on twomz
Ythan is not scum and did use his one shot, Richard was Roleblocked by scum, Ythan killed Millar and scum NK'd twomz to set the whole thing up to get Richard lynched today
Richard did not target millar, but then who did he target? Or maybe he's lying altogether.
It just seems more likely to me ATM that Richard is town BECAUSE twomz was the NK

[Jahudo]

I think I understand that argument. Richard-scum wouldn't lie about killing someone he didn't because he would get counter-claimed. And since Twomz was (presumably) killed by scum, there's a good chance that it would come from Richard-scum's faction. The only logical way Richard could be scum is if there are 2 or more killing scum factions. In a large game that's common enough but not guaranteed, so this isn't an open and shut case.

So if Richard is town, then either he was blocked or Ythan was. I could see a fair chance of the latter happening, but why would scum block Richard-town? Whether he proves he can kill or not wouldn't prove he is town.

[animorpherv1]

The way Jahudo expains it mkakes so much more sense.