8:4 Vanilla Nightless [TM2015] - GAME OVER

[GreyICE]

vote : sotty7

Serious vote.

[GreyICE]

Hmmm,

Nacho

, why did interject regarding Grey's vote on Sotty before she'd posted?

Like you. You're interesting. You think.

Get metal sonic is like 14. And excited. Please chill.

[GreyICE]

You have 32 fucking posts for that

Stop spamming

[GreyICE]

Your ISO is a wasteland

A vast tract of sand and sun, devoid of life

Quantity<Quality, ABR has said more than you have.

[GreyICE]

I'm annoyed that I only have two townreads so far on page 5 (ZZZX and ABR) and it somehow feels like not much is going down. I wonder if this is the result of rust or the fact that half this thread is two guys or my general antsiness. Or a combination of all three.

(Bigger post coming up next after I finish rereading and thinking.)

We are missing EddieFenix, Hoopla, Sotty7, and Seraphim's post was such a non-entry that it actually might have removed information from the thread. He's my vote for coasting scum by the by.

But two of those were names I twigged as likely to token scum, alongside you and Nacho. Especially Hoopla, as tokening scum in this setup fits her profile.

[GreyICE]

Your "townhunting" theory and townblock are so incredibly bad that one cannot believe you came up with them unbiased.

Nightless games inevitably snowball. See Camden, or my setup I designed with Hito. At the moment we have 4 mislynches to town loss, but after a single scum lynch we get a spare mislynch. 5 mislynches is nice. Two scum die, and we get 6. That's really nice. 3, and we get 7 fucking mislynches, and if we manage that we should all quit the site.

So the scum are going to be looking to vote as a block. I smell protectionist scum who wish to work together.

[GreyICE]

None. We're actually all flying solo at the moment. Our QT is 3 pages long, and two of them are chatting with Zoraster.

[GreyICE]

Interesting.

Why would you say "tokens" is bullshit? They give you an enormous ability to influence your role PM. The idea that we should simply ignore this seems ludicrous.

But even more than that, you've won today's lottery!

Because "tokens" is bullshit and voting me over Hoopla in that respect is even worse.

So my reason is shitty, but even if it wasn't, I should have voted Hoopla rather than you based on it?

Congratulations! You win a noose!

Sorry I'm lynching you for the wrong reasons, scumbag.

[GreyICE]

You claimed to be voting me because I was likely to use tokens to make myself scum. That is untrue, it is pretty well known I favor town if any tokens were to be spent on me it would be in that direction as Nacho hinted at. Not only that but you said that Hoopla was more likely to push a token scum draw than myself yet your vote is on me. Why me over her? You're going after the weaker of the two options you listed for yourself and that's not the GreyICE I remember at all.

You remember me? Interesting. What game was that, to give you such a strong impression?

As for recent play experience, I'll save your team the digging - I've been semi-retired for ages. I think the last game I played with Hoopla was like a year ago. My work schedule, moving, and a whole lot of shit has fucked my ability to commit to mafia.

[GreyICE]

Wow, I had forgotten that tiger eaten abortion of a game.

Why do I think you would spend tokens on your scum play? It's literally legendary. Believe it or not, I don't think that the tokens were spent "counterintuitively" very often. You'd hardly be the first returning player to take scum (mith himself did it in the first one).

Why you? I wanted to see how you'd respond. Hoopla just complains that everyone always finds her scummy, she'll pop up with some theory blather in a few days. I was hoping you'd be more interesting. And you were.

[GreyICE]

I think GreyICE is really stretching my scum game and is choosing to ignore my actual preferences to make his vote fit.

I apologize that I caught you for the wrong reasons. It was quite terrible of me. In my defense, you hadn't posted yet. Since you started posting, you've given me so many better reasons for voting you.

You're totally fucking scum. You seriously want me to vote Hoopla rather than you over a reason you think is "bullshit"? You talk about remembering me not "going after the weaker of the two options" and the only game we played together was that hideous abortion where me and Reck ended up yelling at each other for most of day 1 and then the site crashed?

[GreyICE]

Mod: Prods on EddieFenix and Hoopla please

[GreyICE]

Words from the peanut gallery are, to paraphrase: Empire likes playing as town and this looks like town empire, and:

You claimed to be voting me because I was likely to use tokens to make myself scum. That is untrue, it is pretty well known I favor town if any tokens were to be spent on me it would be in that direction as Nacho hinted at. Not only that but you said that Hoopla was more likely to push a token scum draw than myself yet your vote is on me.

Why me over her?

You're going after the weaker of the two options you listed for yourself and that's not the GreyICE I remember at all.

Well, "why me..." (finishing the quote should be left as an exercise to the reader) Nacho, I know you subscribe, what do you think now?

This wgeurts/Metal Sonic shit is rubbing me super duper wrong.

[GreyICE]

Mod: Prods on EddieFenix and Hoopla please

The game started 26 hours ago. I will not be prodding anyone just yet.

And that's terrible.

Nacho is probably town. Although wordy. I think Team Mafia is bringing out the wordy, and not sure I'm loving it.

Metal Sonic:

You can't just ignore a player because you frequently clash with them. Other than that, I don't see too many points.

[GreyICE]

Sotty, you lying sack of scum, you are PATHETIC at this.

My opening vote was to get a read on you. And it fucking worked. You came in here and you launched this pathetic whine where you claimed my vote was illegitimate and tried to get me to lynch Hoopla.

A hundred posts later? Same fucking tune. Same. Fucking. Tune.

Why? You're not trying to sense my alignment. You're looking for weakness. I? I was trying to sense your alignment. And now I know. Now I know every. Little. Detail.

You are scum, and you will be lynched today. This is the end of the line, Sotty, the death tunnel, the white void. Fucking prepare yourself, because if you think MGS was me getting you killed, you ain't seen NOTHING yet.

[GreyICE]

(Well that was interesting)

Now why have I done what I've done town? Let me tell you.

See, it all started when LLD got her role PM for the theme game. She spent two tokens for scum, and got it. Alongside Katsuki and Who. Now, if you look at the player list for the game, and said it was a "choose your side", you'd probably guess 2 of the scum, maybe 3. All before the game started. Five tokens, four players. What's the ratio of people who like town to people who like scum? 3:1? Around there? Sounds right. And what's the ratio of town to scum? 3:1? And Zoraster. Zoraster wants his mechanics to matter, far beyond what's sane, sensible, logical or balanced.

What if, I wondered, what if half or more of the scumteam were people who spent tokens on scum? What if the people who you would expect to spend tokens on scum mostly did, and the people you would expect to spend tokens on town mostly did, and the people who didn't care didn't spend tokens? What if half or more of the scum were people who spent tokens on scum?

So, who would those people be? Hoopla? Maybe. She's damn good at it. Sotty? A legendary scum player, back for a swan song? Possibly. (I also had Empire down for some reason, which my team assures me was wrong - he prefers town) This seems like an interesting spot to begin poking. Oh, and what a fun time it was.

my goal right now is to build a town bloc of any size. if we get that in a nightless its basically impossible to lose

I like this thinking. There are several players I am more than willing to bloc up with. (Hoopla, ABR, Nacho, Empire)

...

Because "tokens" is bullshit and voting me over Hoopla in that respect is even worse.

Look at this post friends. She's willing to town bloc with the mystery lady who hasn't posted yet - and then says Hoopla is more likely than her to token scum? Town-Sotty would have only bad information regarding Hoopla's alignment. Yet here she is, ready to ally up. This is BEYOND strange. Does this look like scumhunting? Townhunting? Well, you draw your own conclusions, but didn't look that way to me. Looked like good old fashioned blending in.

You claimed to be voting me because I was likely to use tokens to make myself scum. That is untrue, it is pretty well known I favor town if any tokens were to be spent on me it would be in that direction as Nacho hinted at. Not only that but you said that Hoopla was more likely to push a token scum draw than myself yet your vote is on me. Why me over her? You're going after the weaker of the two options you listed for yourself and that's not the GreyICE I remember at all.

This post? This post was fucking weird too. The only game we played together was a train wreck that got eaten by tigers. It's not "like me" to push someone to see how they react? What would lead her to think that? In fact, I still don't know. She didn't have a good answer for it.

So what was that line? It's not scumhunting, because it's false. It's a total lie. The game I played with her I was certainly no paragon of scumhunters, and I have never been shy with pushing people to see how I react. What is it? It's an attempt to make me look scummy because I'm "not playing like the GreyICE she knows".

ICE has made a weak vote and despite points to the contrary he has continued to sow his opening vote as legit. None of his points have any merit and instead of adjusting his attack or pushing in a different way he just continues to repeat that I'm caught scum event though his theroy works better for Hoopla who is actually known for gambiting. I could believe she spent tokens on either alignment in this game. At this point I'm just worried I'm letting myself get pulled in by GreyICE and I would really like to see Hoopla post.

My opening vote was legit. And now you're "worried" I'm pulling you past Hoopla, the woman you wanted to town-bloc with back in your first post of the game?


See friends, none of this comes off as particularly genuine to me.

[GreyICE]

umm dude I don't actually think you can talk about the theMe game

Given it's public information, not going to ignore it. There's no tokens in the current version, so it's not like it gives away anything about current alignments.

Has anyone played with Eddie before? Is he always this lazy?

[GreyICE]

Holy hell.

[GreyICE]

You didn't bother to read past the first line of the post dude. That's just sad. That's just completely and utterly sad.

It's like bargain basement benmage.

[GreyICE]

You didn't bother to read past the first line of the post dude. That's just sad. That's just completely and utterly sad.

It's like bargain basement benmage.

I read that entire post, and you're assuming things. That's what's sad. Completely and utterly sad.

You read the entire post, and decided the most important thing was the question at the fronf, and that tokens were worth ignoring despite

hard evidence

they weren't?

What did you think of Sotty's inconsistencies? Anything? Do you have any thoughts at all on it? Because as far as I can tell all you're doing is revving a giant chainsaw.

[GreyICE]

Well for one I wrote up an entire nice post about why Sotty's rubbed me wrong far beyond tokens.

For two, wqierts, ABR, nacho, you are town.

Hoopla's entrance was super notinteresting. Like almost deliberately so.

Eddie is either not reading what I'm saying or pretending not to. He's used that to ignore the rest of the game.

Wolf wagon is weak, but people on it are town. That's enough for a vote in a setup like this, but I have more axes to grind on people Before the day is out.

Oh zar likes scum more than empire. His non posting is making me sad. Empire was townish thoigh, so that gets some cred. Think the switch wasn't about this game, but WHO switched might be.

[GreyICE]

Oh yeah, you're town. That was super obvious.

[GreyICE]

So "mediating" this town means, and I quote:

i abstain from the greyice and sotty argument.

Such mediate.

I wouldn't mind either juicy analysis or just plain old scumhunting. Or you just claiming scum, it would help the cohesion of the town, and is always a solid option. But the only thing I can think of your entrance is you sat down with the biggest bowl I ever saw and had some personal time right before posting.

[GreyICE]

Actually no wait, Hoopla knows what I know, she's town.

Fuck you hoopla.

[GreyICE]

Okay, but seriously, Silverwolf? I'm not in love with the wagon, Hoopla. If we look at the wagons:

Sotty7 (3)

- GreyICE, Metal Sonic, Albert B. Rampage

Metal Sonic (3)

- Zar, Seraphim, wgeurts

Kagami (3)

- Nachomamma8, Hoopla, ZZZX

GreyICE (2)

- Sotty7, EddieFenix

wgeurts (1)

- Kagami

Sotty wagon is all town, Kagami/Silver wagon is all town, MS wagon is... okay, why is that actually still a fucking thing? Remove my wgeurts town read, that wagon is a dumpster fire.

[GreyICE]

Yeah, I'm fine with that, because I know why. Come on here, this ain't either of our first rodeos, and I actually have a track record of figuring out your logic, even if I got lynched for it (for some truly terrible play as well, to be fair) in the first team mafia.

But if our house lands on someone who isn't the wicked witch, it may be a very nice house, but it's not very effective. You really sure Silver is the choice of the day? Because let me tell you, I am not.

[GreyICE]

Oh god don't TELL them optimal play.

[GreyICE]

Also I consider this game lost if it hits 6:4 or 5:4 with 90% certainty. My goal here is a day 1 scum lynch, with day 2 as backup (6 of 7 is slightly easier than 7 of 8).

That's why I need decent wagons, not this half baked "lets lynch silverwolf" bullshit.

[GreyICE]

Oh god don't TELL them optimal play.

you're underestimating the collective knowledge of the scumteam. four people in this team and then a crew of teammates with eyes on the game. scum already know how to play optimally.

But not from a graphic discussion. You can have all the discussions you want in your little caves, but when it becomes gestalt wisdom then it's much easier to internalize. People still panic and follow the flow, I've watched scum bus when they actually had equal numbers to the town because of the force of panic.

Regardless, is what is. I'd have preferred to find scum and THEN trust in my ability to direct the house, but here we are. Terms have changed. We can play by your rules. Although I still like my vote.

[GreyICE]

Sotty wagon is all town, Kagami/Silver wagon is all town, MS wagon is... okay, why is that actually still a fucking thing? Remove my wgeurts town read, that wagon is a dumpster fire.

Do you believe someone alignment is different because his voting was not what you agree on?? I find that mostly a town point as scum doesnt like to stand out on those kind of stuff.

It's not about "disagreeing" it's about how they're voting.

For instance, Silver is a wagon I don't agree with, but the people on it are town. Look at their reasoning.

Look at the votes on MS please:

Vote: Metal Sonic

i looked at this playerlist and i decided to not put any tokens lol

Playerlists were revealed after token submissions and alignments were assigned. So how did you come to assign your tokens after the fact?

(Nacho, you better be town here and make this way easier for me.)

I'm here.

Vote: Metal Sonic

If I can make this happen, it will save me me so many headaches.

This bugged me so much I've decided to respond to it:

1. GreyICE and ABR performed exactly the same actions, apart from voting different people and having a different name. Why exactly did wgeurts phrase his post in such a manner: "We're in a nightless and all info is relevant, hiding it is anti-town. I'm going to vote you until you say it was a joke or explain why it's serious." a general sweeping statement "all info is relevant" while not addressing the personal aspects of why he voted ABR.

If you didn't pick this up from the posts I made I'll explain this again:
I don't know ICE however I've played 4+ games with ABR as scum and town. We've had a tendancy to clash in nearly all of these games which led eventually to the mis-lynch of him or me. I wanted to avoid this again so I decided to provoke him into playing out of his usual style. I'm hoping that doing so will lead to play that will reveal his alignment clearly to me. It was a reaction test you can say and two: GreyICE seemed to be making a joke, knowing ABR I however wasn't sure. If you read I also stated it was fine if he just explained it was joke RVS reasoning. In a nightless all info counts, I'm also wanting an explanation for Nacho's vote.

...

Now:
VOTE: MetalSonic
I do believe I also stated to ZZZX scum would pounce on the stuff you've pounced on as a sort of slayers gambit. You've attempted to falsely frame me, as expected from scum.

That's a fucking dumpster fire, ZZZX. Like, actual fucking dumpster fire.

[GreyICE]

Essentially turn the game into a vengeful? I'm down with that. It's got to be better than trying to put together an all-town wagon.

Fine, if there's 3 or more scum alive and we need every single townie on a wagon to get a scum lynch, I will vote for whoever the last lynched player said, no matter how stupid I believe it is, unless it involves self-voting in LyLo.

Lets just not go there though.

[GreyICE]

Essentially turn the game into a vengeful? I'm down with that. It's got to be better than trying to put together an all-town wagon.

The skillset of all townies required to orchestrate a lynch against scum playing optimally on D3/4 is just way too unrealistic for them to all have. Turning it into a vengeful after D2 is surely better odds, because there is guaranteed no scum manipulation. We're gonna sacrifice accuracy compared to a good scumhunter's choices, but there is too high a chance that they're scum to blind trust a good player. Let the guaranteed innocent person choose, even if it seems stupid.

That actually was me seriously agreeing with you. If we whiff on day 1 AND day 2 then it'll be impossible for day 3/4 to be scum lynches without a plan like this.

Of course my real plan is not to whiff on day 1+2, but as a backup, I like your plan.

[GreyICE]

Ok, so I've got the gist of it.

GI, what happened in 272?

Hoopla was blatantly aware that the best town strategy was to form a block because otherwise it would be nearly impossible to get solid scum lynches.

That was her analysis, and she started out playing it as town.

[GreyICE]

Don't explain my vote? "It's all about tokens". Do explain my vote? "It's just salesmanship!"

I see a person who appears intelligent yet seems incapable of responding to analysis or reasoning. Despite being asked to.

BAAAAAAAA

Vote: Eddie

Unvote
Vote: Kagami

My vote should be here, it didn't registered for whatever reason.

This is your warning bell, townies.

[GreyICE]

I'm not entertaining any lynch set up, plan, or letting any mislynchee dictate to me who to vote. Hoopla can advise whatever she wants when I'm not there, but this is my game. Did you know that this setup was my first choice pick? There's no outguessing the mod, setup speculation, NK WIFOM. This is pure scumhunting, an area where I have the upper hand. I can't be killed or silenced. The scum aren't even coming after me yet, they will essentially town confirm me before long. Then their hope will be to endgame me. That's marvellous. The chances of that happening are low like the Canadian Dollar. Welcome to Albert B. Rampage's class in Scumhunting, you will find your syllabus on the left hand side of your desk. Sharpen your pencils, class.

'kay, we're still on the lets lynch scum plan.

Rethink this on day 3 if day 1 and 2 of ABR's class go poorly.

[GreyICE]

Good. I want more people on the Eddie train. Seven of them would be very, very nice.

I explain my exact reasoning, and you accuse me of "salesmanship" without responding to a single fucking thing I'm saying?

Burn.

[GreyICE]

Conjuring with speculation on the flips of still living players is a stretch even for me.

Agree that Sotty scum would mean Hoopla town certainly, but I prefer reads without conditionals - they loop the conditional back on the original player (Hoopla town makes Sotty look worse)

[GreyICE]

Yo Nacho get back and help us lynch scumfuck McGee please

[GreyICE]

By the by friends, my case on Sotty is now terrible. A page ago?

I think Sotty's "inconsistencies," as you so put them, are under my microscope and I'm keeping a very keen eye on them as we move forward. If you're going to say I'm "chainsaw defending" them, you better bring a case to the table then that.

Yeah.

This is why pressure is fun, it's interesting to watch players crack under it.

Who isn't voting Eddie and why?

[GreyICE]

I'm not trying to convince you your role PM is red. You know it is, it's a waste of time.

I just need five more townies to see the light.

[GreyICE]

Sorry for being contrary guys!

I still think wolf slot is a fine vote, although a bit less so.
Sotty, unfortunately, is forming up to be an ok vote at this stage.
Seraphim is a great vote.

I'd like to bring Sotty into the game at this point because I find I do best when I have a couple of sounding boards in thread to work with and now that Empire's gone, Sotty is probably the player I feel the most comfortable with, but I'd like her in the game and talking about things instead of letting Grey dictate interactions and her just sitting on the peripheral.

I also love Hoopla's entrance in a "good player" sort of way, although the Eddie vote doesn't seem like the strongest direction we can take at this stage.

I'm not okay with wolf votes.
I'm fine with Seraphim votes, those are awesome.
I hate the timing here with a fiery passion. This is all sorts of badwrong.

If we lynched (Eddie, Seraphim, Sotty) I seriously wonder how many scum would be alive. I doubt the total would be higher than 2.

One of my town reads is scum.

[GreyICE]

GreyICE, don't lose sight of your wgeurts town read.

Vote: Sotty

Fine, he's town.

I'm still wrong about someone. I can smell it.

[GreyICE]

G Ice, actually, I'd like you to tell me why Hoopla isn't a great lynch right now. It seems to me that she is.

Mmm, I had some points. But then I thought about it. I will answer your question by Friday.

I am obviously being intentionally cryptic, but I also need to think. And preferably chat with my team here.

Vote: Sotty

[GreyICE]

There are other little things too. I don't believe town greyICE would ever utter "scum caught for the wrong reasons." He's just too smart to believe that.

Ooh, this is juicy.

That's one of my trademark phrases, Kagami. I use that all the time, because one of the best scum tells in the whole wide world is when someone starts bitching that you're wagoning them for the "wrong reasons". "Why me, fry me" is one of the strictest rules in Mafia, and the best. And anyone who says otherwise is a shitter or scum.

You were Silverwolf? I am starting to LOVE the people showing up to this party with chainsaws.

[GreyICE]

There are other little things too. I don't believe town greyICE would ever utter "scum caught for the wrong reasons." He's just too smart to believe that.

Ooh, this is juicy.

That's one of my trademark phrases, Kagami. I use that all the time, because one of the best scum tells in the whole wide world is when someone starts bitching that you're wagoning them for the "wrong reasons". "Why me, fry me" is one of the strictest rules in Mafia, and the best. And anyone who says otherwise is a shitter or scum.

You were Silverwolf? I am starting to LOVE the people showing up to this party with chainsaws.

You're serious? This makes me sad.

Well then, pay attention and you will learn something. I'll start GreyICE's school of how to fucking play mafia, except mine won't be nice and gentle like ABR's.

One of the cardinal rules of mafia is the cardinal rules of any situation where you have a guilty party. Barring utter psychopaths, guilty people know they are "supposed" to get caught. And there's very little way scum can honestly defend themselves from charges of being scum. Of course they were acting scummy, they were scum.When they start grabbing someone else and yelling "well this person was doing it too!" or "you should be going after them if you think that, not me!",

especially when they couple that with "And X wasn't really scummy at all"

then you can very safely hang them.

If you think this is wrong, you haven't been paying attention.

[GreyICE]

G Ice, read my posts on this page, are you and I of the same mind regarding this game?

Yes. You're my strongest town read, followed by ZZZX, then Empire/Zar (WHO COULD BOTHER TO SHOW UP), then MS. It's too few for the length of the game and how it's going, but it is 5, and 5 is kind of what I want here. I'd be very happy to 5 block there. I don't share your passion on wguerts, but c'est la vie. Something is tickling me there, and not in the best of ways.

As a related note, Shadoweh states that Eddie is probably town, because this level of passion and dedication is unlikely to come from scum. I'm okay with it, but I don't think he's amiable to town blocking. And frankly if he gets boxed, so be it.

Pedit: You're arguing with Silverwolf spot over Sotty cold feet. Le who gives a fuck. Nacho backs out and...

[GreyICE]

ABR, the activity around this wagon is getting serious red flag territory. I don't like it. LLD thinks it's shit. Nacho's vote was fine for him to ride out the day or pull to explain it's "pressure". People are setting up day 1, not day 2.

Gimme something new. Literally pick a vote, I will sheep. Something is wrong here. I'm not saying lets not revisit it on a later day, but day 1 this is seriously off. Just please lets not do wgeurts, my team thinks he looks like he's legit trying to figure out the game, and I agree.

[GreyICE]

But it's a game of stupid chicken if Sotty is scum. Seraphim has had his vote parked on Silverwolf/Kagami all day, with the reasoning "I believe ABR". Kagami is suddenly absolutely convinced I'm scum, but willing to hang Sotty first, because he likes my points on tokens.

Now they BOTH absolutely agree, without ever acknowledging the other, like some sort of coordinated waltz?

If Sotty is scum then I have town cred for fucking days. It's already been like 4 years since someone mislynched me (THANK YOU FAKECLAIMING FATE) and after a Sotty lynch? You and me would be fucking untouchable. SO WHY ARE MY SCUM READS SUDDENLY JUMPING ON BOARD

I MIGHT BE FLINCHING BUT SOMETHING IS WRONG IN THE STATE OF DENMARK

PEDIT: I WANT DEAD SCUM. FUCK CONSISTENCY, CONSISTENCY IS FOR LAZY ASSHOLES AND SCUM WHO DON'T WANT TO EXPLAIN WHY THEIR "READS" CHANGED

[GreyICE]

Fucking fine. If we can't get a town block, we're already screwed.

ZZZX, Metal Sonic, and Zar/Empire are all town, we're 100% there, right?

[GreyICE]

Kagami is suddenly absolutely convinced I'm scum, but willing to hang Sotty first, because he likes my points on tokens.

Nope, but nice try. Sotty is town, you are not. The reason I'm ok with lynching sotty is that there's otherwise zero chance in this gamestate of lynching you, the actual scum. For strange cosmic reasons, a lot of people think you're town and they simply can't all be partners. Once you're lynched, your team has no prayer. As you correctly stated, this setup is a snowball-fest.

And please point me to when I "suddenly" became convinced, because I had you as scum on my first read through.

You were trying to sell me on Hoopla town right here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6727800

So don't give me that.

[GreyICE]

ZZZX, Metal Sonic, and Zar/Empire are all town, we're 100% there, right?

Yes, they are town. I don't want to get to a town block, I don't believe in them. I want a decisive town victory. When the player survey comes up and you see my name, I want that number high baby.

It's not about a block in the traditional sense, some entity easily manipulated through night kills. It's nightless. We need all but one town voting to get a lynch if the scum are going to cold feet us. And without that majority, a townie can never be removed, only endgamed. Four can't endgame five.

MS, ZZZX, Zar, chat with your teams. I want you on board here. MS, I know you are, ZZZX same, Zar, just chat with Regfan. He's the best fucking player on this site, bar none.

[GreyICE]

You mean if one of the five is scum, then when we've lynched 3 of the scumteam and 4 townies (a GREAT ratio in this setup) and it's 4:1, the scum will magically gain the supermajority and "work wonders"? Would they perhaps gain a fucking night kill or something to get them out of that mess?

LLD and Shadoweh assure me that you're town. I am over here banging a hole in my wall if that's true.

[GreyICE]

Really? Who in your peanut gallary? Mala? Iec? ActionDan? Why?

This is the first information you've shared from your peanut gallary. Do tell.

[GreyICE]

Vote: Seraphim

[GreyICE]

Wait, why are we on a wagon with Sotty

Why is Sotty even on this wagon? The reasoning isn't even paper thin, unless you're buying tissue paper.

I have the sort of lack of understanding of this game that is preferably solved by corpses. A pile of very specific corpses.

[GreyICE]

Actually you know what?

It wasn't that thin. I'm fine with this.

[GreyICE]

1) Unless ABR goes off the reservation, I'm sheeping him. You may consider him a doublevoter, minus certain fetishes of his I do not share (wguerts, who is a miserable day 1 lynch, and not a great lynch in general). I'd prefer we get it to a quintavoter, because that makes this game so very much more possible, but that will come in time.
2) It's a good vote anyway.

[GreyICE]

If someone wants an example of "Why me, fry me" it's directly above this post

[GreyICE]

Yes, yes, come dance. This is a good dance.

[GreyICE]

Zar, I'd settle for you playing period.

[GreyICE]

The post I owe ABR

So why the Hoopla read? Well initially I was trying to figure out what the hell she was doing. Then what she was doing made sense. It is impossible to win if the town splinters off into a thousand different directions. All you need is two players like Eddie or Wguerts on the town's side, noble crusaders for the banner of Quixote, and the town can't get a lynch together without bussing. Town reads aren't ultra important compared to getting together a block of people who vote together. That lightbulb moment? That's when I switched my read.

The vigging plan is immensely pro-town. If we have two town lynches in a row, it means we can't block effectively enough to get a scum lynch. At that point literal random chance is better than what the town can do. And airing it on day 1 is immensely pro-town. Trying it on day 3/4 when the scum can effectively choose whether to "agree" or "disagree" based on selection is awful. If someone says "great plan!" on day 1 and then on day 3 is like "How awful I'd never do that" then at least we'd have a shot.

That's strong, town analysis.

So why hold off on explaining?

Because it's town

analysis

. Shit you could do before you even got your role PM. She knows that I'd be all over shitty analysis from her like white on rice. So if Hoopla pushed the plan and made everyone either agree or disagree (not this weak-sauce shit from Kagami, actual yes/no up/down on it) then we'd get scads of information. Do scum sign on to a pro-town plan? How do they or do they not?

Similarly, if she's building consensus, she'd look to establish a block. 5 or so town votes that work together is immensely powerful in this setup. These are great things. But I don't want to say "Hoopla would do X if she's town" because then Hoopla gets to either agree/disagree and her actions are meaningless WIFOM. I wanted to see what she would do with a few days of free time.

The answer?

LURK LIKE A MOTHERFUCKER.

Don't consider that spot one of my town reads. Still like my current vote, mind you.

[GreyICE]

Hoopla Mar 31, 10:47pm Apr 01, 10:37am

2 days 6 hours

17

Prod?

[GreyICE]

Yo metal sonic, you're town and all, but try reading 100% of my posts before responding. It stops posts like the above.

[GreyICE]

By the by, I'd say Eddie would be pretty funny ball-less, but what's the difference?

[GreyICE]

Vote:Sotty

Literally none of the resistance to this wagon comes from town reads.

Although Seraphim was still a good vote.

[GreyICE]

It's more how I actually try to outline my thought processes: thus it's easier to learn by reading to the end and answering, rather than responding to paragraph 1.

[GreyICE]

...

[GreyICE]

How the fuck is Sotty part of any town block?

The fuck is this

[GreyICE]

You actually think that my role in this game

Is to try and avoid confrontation.

Eddie, you and your fuckwit teammates are the dumbest piles of shit to ever grace this site. You could take the entire population of the short bus, send them on a tour of a glue huffing factory, and get a more intelligent and well-thought out opinion out of them.

[GreyICE]

Yeah, maybe the truth is inflammatory. His town read on Sotty is one of the fucking worst things I've ever seen. He hasn't even interacted with Sotty! In any fucking way. And if he calls that a lie, he can check his ISO to confirm it.

Eddie's town read on Sotty came out of nowhere, and when she flips scum I am hanging him

. Claiming I am trying to avoid confrontation isn't just a lie, it's a lie so blatant that it's hard to understand how stupid you would have to be to make that sort of lie.

He is a lying motherfucker whose opposition to the Sotty lynch has literally come out of nowhere, and selling ABR as a lone wolf when he has very obviously been trying to build a consensus is awful.

Oh and I'm town, so I'm taking Eddie's own posts as permission to refer to him as the ball-less wonder.

[GreyICE]

Who's replacing out. Sotty is town and apart of our ideal town block

(MS, Kagami, ZZZX, Zar, and Myself).

This is an attempt to build a "town block" with enough scum to win the game in it. Kagami? Sotty? Eddie? Why is Silverwolf/Kagami suddenly town? No explanation from Eddie. Sotty? No explanation from Eddie.

And if you think he and his team has done anything to try and push either Kagami or Sotty to get these town reads, I invite you to read his ISO.

They are not there.

The questions are not there. The inquisition is not there. He marginalizes ABR as "lone wolf town" when I can quote a dozen examples of ABR trying to build a consensus.

Eddie, I invite you. Do you stand behind your read, Eddie? Do you think that you were correct?

Do you stand behind your read of ABR as lone wolf town, Eddie? Are you willing to say that you are actually reading the game?

Eddie, nothing you are saying is honest. Nothing you are saying is coming from a player who is reading the game. Do you stand behind your statements or disown them, scum.

[GreyICE]

I was about to slam your point of "fuckwit teammates" so deep into the ground where it would never see light again,

Then I saw that only Bulbazak was the only teammate that was not bad

So actually surprisingly it was remotely true.

Yeah, MS, read this. Where did Eddie interact with Silverwolf/Kagami sllot enough to conclude that the slot

should be part of the townblock?

Can you locate where that brilliant read came from?

[GreyICE]

At this stage, Hoopla, you have to earn that.

[GreyICE]

I thought it was pretty clear. She herself summarized it in a single sentence:

Vote: GreyICE

Because "tokens" is bullshit and voting me over Hoopla in that respect is even worse.

Tokens are bullshit

and

it's not fair I voted her for tokens when I should be voting Hoopla.

This was then compounded by the idea that I was "not the GreyICE she remembered at all" here:

You claimed to be voting me because I was likely to use tokens to make myself scum. That is untrue, it is pretty well known I favor town if any tokens were to be spent on me it would be in that direction as Nacho hinted at. Not only that but you said that Hoopla was more likely to push a token scum draw than myself yet your vote is on me. Why me over her? You're going after the weaker of the two options you listed for yourself and that's not the GreyICE I remember at all.

The thing is, our only game together (that I had honestly forgotten) was 4 years ago, died on day 2 to the 2 month site crash, and was pretty shit because me and Reckoner spent most of the time bitching at each other because we were both a lot less mature back then (yes, I take a part of the blame, but I claim only a part). So what's this about not being the GreyICE I remember? Especially when we have this:

I don't remember the exact games but I have played with you a long time ago and didn't really enjoy it. Our styles back then clashed way too much so I did my best to avoid you after that for my own sanity. Faraday's Metal gear I think the big one was, you had a blow up with Reck and I was hydring with Zach. The pair of you flooded the thread and I think we got vigg'ed as a result.

Liiiiike, basically? Lets review. I pushed her consistently as well as other people. Her take away was that I would... tunnel one read without pushing anyone else?

I mean in no way does the statement "that's not the GreyICE I remember" make sense. It makes negative sense. I've had plenty of good games, and quite a few bad games, and I honestly don't know what that one was because of Tigers (site crash) but seriously where the hell did that statement come from.

Aaanyway yeah, that's the fucking issues I had and some context. Feel like I've said it all before but w/e

[GreyICE]

Kagaku is town reading Sotty, for magic.

Sotty is town reading Silverwolf/Kagami for reasons so terrible that it's literally hard to imagine. The slot has done less than nothing.

Nacho is town reading Sotty for having a town read on

the person he's voting

. And Seraphim.

Fuck this. Nacho, this wagon is righteous. Look how fucking hard it is to put it together.

[GreyICE]

Why is my vote a bad one?

Kagami? It's not bad at all. If ABR goes that way, I will too. Town reading Seraphim is terrible, but overall I like your vote.

Frankly, I'm somewhat inclined to say you're town. Moving this Sotty wagon is like trying to bench press a dump truck though. It's seriously fucking annoying.

[GreyICE]

And the thing is, she knows it. You don't want to lynch her because friendship (as you said before she even posted - seriously, if she's a friend chat on AIM, this is Mafia), Eddie is roleclaimed brick, Wguerts is AFK/VLA/MIA or whatever. We don't have the town votes to lynch her, and all of the scum are busy being cheeky scumfucks and avoiding the wagon for shit reasons. She gets to just sit in the thread with a free pass because she knows right now she's fucking invincible. AND IT'S ANNOYING.

[GreyICE]

She's not BECOMING a bigger wagon:

i abstain from the greyice and sotty argument.

who else would like to have a chat?

Because sotty is going to flip town, and it will make this game infinitely simply when day 2 begins with a theory discussion between greyICE and hoopla about why it's important to follow our hearts and how we shouldn't let dead townies tell us what to do.

This: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
Then there's Eddie. Eddie. We could write songs about Eddie.

IT'S THE MAGICAL WAGON THAT NEVER MOVES FORWARD DUE TO MAGICAL UNVOTES

[GreyICE]

I see you're here to antagonize me

and

promote Yet Another Counterwagon to Sotty.

Who you don't really have a town read on.

But you're quite happy pushing

Not Sotty

and

Not Seraphim

as hard as you can.

How fucking interesting. How very fucking interesting.

[GreyICE]

By the by, Eddie, do you stand by your read of ABR as lone-wolf town? I asked, you dodged.

Were you just tossing shit on ABR's pushes? Or do you stand by your read? Which is it, oh ball-less vunderkind?

[GreyICE]

Sorry, easter has been busier than I thought. Just got a prod.

Anyway, I challenge anyone to read greyICE's iso and find a post that both has content and is not contradicted by another of his posts.


Also, think about 364, which he probably thought was a nice clean fluff post. It indicates that he believes scum inherently react to accusations in an alignment indicative fashion.

Now look at his reactions to accusation. Oh wait, there are none. None at all. He goes to painstaking efforts to pretend they don't exist.

Even 364 itself he cuts out the entirety of my argument. In 654, my belief that sotty is town is "magic," because he's deliberately establishing a mindset of "attacks on me don't exist."

It's intentional, it's obviously so, and it's a scum strategy.

This is called lying, by the by.

[GreyICE]

Like even Eddie isn't stupid enough to say I've had no reaction to the shitty "accusations" leveled at me.

I mean he's really fucking stupid. But not that stupid.

[GreyICE]

So I ask you, Kagami, do you stand by that piece of shit argument? Will that be your hill to die on? Or are you going to realize what you said, and run like a coward?

[GreyICE]

shiow me. use quotes.

Ooooh, the liar is choosing to stand by his post! And accusing me of running away, because of course no piece of flailing is complete without the raw panic portion of tonight's entertainment!

In post 214 I clearly and succinctly respond to Sotty's "accusations" even though they're thinly disguised OMGUS.
In 308 I respond to Eddie's claim that my vote and case were "just salesmanship" (because apparently it's townier to just naked vote and not try to convince other townies?).
In 539 I respond to the questions about my Hoopla read, and how it progressed.
In 364 AND 373 I respond to your RIDICULOUS accusation that I would never say "scum caught for the wrong reasons" as town. Your only response was to ignore that and then CIRCLE AROUND AND CALL IT WEAK BECAUSE IT WAS A DIRECT RESPONSE TO YOU.

That's five different posts, ENTIRE POSTS that are direct responses to three different people.

You are a liar Kagami. You know what we do with liars?

Vote: Kagami

[GreyICE]

You respond to posts. You do not address accusations in any of those. Not one.

In your list you even include 364, wherein you deliberately dodge the vast majority of 354, you only "respond" to the most minor of points.

You believe that you will be "caught for the wrong reasons" if you actually defend yourself.

Well then, you lying little dog turd, please feel free to enumerate those points.

[GreyICE]

... And accusing me of running away, because of course no piece of flailing is complete without the raw panic portion of tonight's entertainment!
...

And yes. I guess it's not actually running away, since you've decided to post, but that's indicative enough.

There are minutes between our exchange. 2 minutes per post. You were there and watching.

It doesn't take town a full hour to respond to a post.

Also, you hilarious piece of shit, I've been chatting with my girlfriend. About things that had nothing to do with the game, because I don't fucking care to stalk this thread.

You are using the fact I was away from this thread for ONE FUCKING HOUR to attack me? Because I wanted to chat with LLD?

You are HORRIBLE. You are fucking blacklist worthy. That sort of attack alone would put you on my blacklist for being an awful human being.

Enumerate the points against me shithead. You have two fucking minutes.

[GreyICE]

One minute, asshole

[GreyICE]

Hmmm, no response. Maybe I'll give you three minutes! That's 50% more time than you wanted from me, you liar.

[GreyICE]

Ooh look, three minutes without posting!

That goes with the

three day

hole in your ISO between the 2nd and the 5th where you posted exactly nothing.

By your own arguments you're now confirmed scum for not responding to me. Self-vote, you shitter.

[GreyICE]

Oooh, look, confirmed scum stalking the thread.

Hello, little scum.

[GreyICE]

Sorry, how do you explain the six minute gap in your posting, Kagami? Where are the missing six minutes?

[GreyICE]

Also the missing three days. Those would be nice to explain too. Along with the list of "arguments" you made that you feel I didn't respond to.

[GreyICE]

Oh look, you went two minutes without posting, Kagami. I know you're watching the thread. How did you go 2 minutes without posting, Kagami? Are you scum Kagami? According to your own arguments that makes you scum, Kagami.

[GreyICE]

How did that response take you four minutes to make, Kagami? Are you saying that's a four minute response? Town wouldn't take four minutes to make a shitty response like that, Kagami. Why aren't you self-voting?

[GreyICE]

Oh good, the liar is going to drop that point. Which is nice to see, because it was

the worst argument I've seen in four years on this site

. I was going to crucify you, fucking biblical style we're talking three nails and no fucking hammer to break the legs.

Now it will just be a lynch.

Thanks for the summary of your shitty arguments by the by.

[GreyICE]

Oh and speaking of lurking,

What about the enormous hole in your ISO, Kagami?

[GreyICE]

Do you have any thoughts that happened during your enormous lurk-fest?

You are using this "wagon" on me as an excuse to avoid everything else that happens in this game. You get to be a

Tabula Rasa

by tunneling. Is your plan to hope to get out of it on day 2? Or just salvage the SilverWolf slot by pushing one town lynch before you go down, and leave the least information possible in your ISO?

Who is town, Kagami? Who is scum? Do you have a town read on Seraphim? I know you have one on Sotty because "I voted for her" which is hilarious in and of itself.

[GreyICE]

That's not reads, kagami. That's a reorganized player list from the OP. That took you 15 minutes, did it? I am currently chatting with someone about a trip to my apartment, I can do that in two.

Town

ABR
ZZZX
MS
Empire/Zar

Probably town
Nacho
wgeurts

No idea
Hoopla
Eddie

Scum
You
Sotty
Seraphim


Look at that.

Now is there actual reasoning, Kagami? Because I've given reasons for each and every one of these, interacted with them, tried to do things. You've... reorganized the player list. So, Kagami, question time.

WHY THE FUCK ARE SERAPHIM AND SOTTY AND EDDIE TOWN. IS THIS JUST A LIST OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE VOTED FOR ME WITH ABR TACKED ON?

[GreyICE]

Oh, really? No scum, you first. I have nearly 100 posts in this thread, a constant, unbroken train of thought from beginning to end. You have motherfucking

Silverwolf

who made two shitposts then replaced out. We then get you, who has used your shit tunnel as an excuse to give nothing. And now

you

want

me

to provide reads?

Does anyone think this is town, class?

[GreyICE]

Oh and by the by for those who are paying attention,

Silverwolf is currently posting in other games that she did not replace out of. Since replacing out, SilverWolf has made dozens of posts in other threads. Here is the link: http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 3&sr=posts

[GreyICE]

Oh and by the by for those who are paying attention,

Silverwolf is currently posting in other games that she did not replace out of. Since replacing out, SilverWolf has made dozens of posts in other threads. Here is the link: http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 3&sr=posts

She replaced out from the entire game. Non alignment indicative. It's a dick move to accuse her of scum replacing out and you know it.

She replaced out of one single game. She's still active in two others. This is perfectly fair information to use.

And it's not like that's the ONLY reason SilverWolf's posts were scummy, or why I think Kagami is scum. But when you have a player who is known uncomfortable playing scum replacing out of one single game while remaining in others, that is alignment-relevant information.

[GreyICE]

Metal Sonic, there is one defining rule of mafia here. It is "play to win". Not "play to be chivalrous". For fucks sake, if every scum play was chivalrous and upstanding, we wouldn't even have a game of mafia.

Now, if a player who hates to play scum replaces out of this particular game, but remains very active in other games, that influences my read on them. Period. And I will say so.

I have had scum use funerals, work, deaths in the family, romantic relationships, and other "tragedies" to justify their lurking, their play, or other things. I used to give those chivalry and respect, until they were repeatedly used to manipulate me. And that was fair, because this is not a game of honor, it is a game of mafia. Read my signature.

[GreyICE]

As for who played unethically, SilverWolf was receiving heat for her posts not being townie, and for being uncomfortable and being a player known to be uncomfortable as scum. SilverWolf chose to respond to those allegations by replacing out of this game while remaining in others. Not across-the-board flaking, not generally lower inactivity, just flaking from one specific game. And now the questions about her play will never be answered. In point of fact her replacement completely derailed the wagon on her, and gave Kagami a grace period. Was that ethical? I would say if any "unethical" things occurred here it was that, and we are left only to interpret what that action means.

But, if you don't care about that, what do you think of Kagami's "reads list" and his justification he gave above?

[GreyICE]

For what? For his "everything and the kitchen sink" case on me where he attacks me for everything from contradicting myself to "trying to get a lynch" to fucking SPENDING AN HOUR WITH MY GIRLFRIEND WHEN I SHOULD BE HANGING AROUND LIKE A FUCKING SLAVE WAITING FOR MASSA TO GIVE ORDERS?

Or maybe for his read list from the black lagoon which indicates he isn't even close to fucking paying attention?

Or maybe for the silverwolf "replace out of one game, by the by I don't like playing scum"

Oh, nope, none of those. Because of a shitty piece of meta. HOLY FUCK CHRIST.

Smash your stupid team on their stupid heads and come vote scum.

[GreyICE]

Fine, they're not stupid. Meta is still a terrible thing to base arguments on.

[GreyICE]

"How to dodge scumreads from people who play by meta 101, a short guide by GreyICE"

- Open your most recent two scumgames. Look at what you did. Do something different.

This is team mafia, his team probably said something like "well you normally sit back and relax, just go agro and make a case on someone." I mean

outside

of his case on me, everything else has been terrible and non-existent. And he went missing for a nice few day gap.

[GreyICE]

I have some experience with Kagami in MTG mafia. He was consistent, streamlined, didn't make glaring mistakes. Completely under the radar, reasoned and justified reads lists. Titus reports the same thing from Inuyasha.

Kagami isn't going to re-invent the wheel.

It's a high risk lynch. It won't blow the game wide open either. Our safest bets are Seraphim and Sotty.

Oh my god. The argument is literally "he's playing so bad he has to be town, he'd be better if he were scum".

Excuse me, I'm going to go put my forehead through sheet rock.

[GreyICE]

Why not? Why does his terrible entrance benefit him as scum? What does aggravating you do for him? You and Nacho are starting with the premise that Kagami's whole team is cornered and as good as caught, so his only play is to force a mislynch on you, the most aggressive, emotional and active player in the game, apparently the only loose screw in our impenetrable town block. I mean...really? Is that what you think? We just line up the scum pool and sequentially vote them out until we win, no second thoughts?

He didn't. His entrance was "hey guys, reading up". His first major post is:

I read that, serephim. It's not compelling. I agree that sotty's play isn't amazing, but I've seen far worse from town being tunneled into the ground.

GI's posting is bizarrely inconsistent, which is ironic given he says the same of sotty. The best point he makes is the token thing.

He complains that sotty is willing to town block with players who haven't even posted against, pointing to a list that is probably just people sotty likes/has played with before. Later hoopla shows up later saying she'll sheep GI and ABR and just gamble that they're town. Hoopla gets a solid town for that because hoopla understands the need to town-block.

He should have had hoopla as town at 114, given his suspicion of sotty. Instead, there are sprinkles of "hoopla might be scum" in the token conversation and hoopla's opening is "deliberately uninteresting." He decides hoopla is town at 272 for whatever reason. I asked him about it, and apparently GI doesn't do pre-flip associations. Meanwhile, Eddie is revving a chainsaw in 258.

sotty is apparently pathetic and the worst liar ever. And is a legendary scum player in the next post.

There are other little things too. I don't believe town greyICE would ever utter "scum caught for the wrong reasons." He's just too smart to believe that. 277 is another ridiculous thing I don't think town-GI would say. "One of my townreads is scum" reads as "I'll have to 180 on one of my townreads once my scumreads are all dead."

And yes, a lot of this oddly revolves around a greyice-hoopla interaction. I think they're scum together. The early hoopla-scum sprinkles might indicate town-hoopla, but it looks like it was just distancing that grey decided not to bother with since he inexplicably has a townread from everyone.

So on to that townread. Why is greyICE town, seraphim?

He was willing to lynch Sotty for a while to get a mislynch on me, which is warning bells level of play for basically anyone. Both Shadoweh and LLD commented on how bad it was, LLD wanted me off the Sotty wagon then and there (I'm not so sold on it as her, but it was bad juju).

But you know what? Lets ignore Kagami for a second. His team is

TSO, cabd, and Aeronaut

. I have no idea who Aeronaut is, but Cabd and TSO are both active players. Moreover, Kagami's slot is under extreme fire.

They left him with THIS as a reads list?

Scum

GreyICE (TBD)
Hoopla (Confectionery Animals)

Zar Empire (The Westeros Circlejerk)
wgeurts (Young and Beautiful)
Metal Sonic (team nocaps)
Nachomamma8 (Gestalt)
ZZZX (TEAM WITH NO NAME)

EddieFenix (The Leftovers)
Seraphim (The Unviggable Vegetables)
Sotty7 (The Kliq)
Albert B. Rampage (Blue, Meth, Blade and Associates)

Town


Now it's your turn.

What, do they just hate him? Is that it?

[GreyICE]

Kagami's strategy to align himself with Sotty, Seraphim and Eddie is a tactical blunder that is unconscionable for scum.

No, this is back to "he's so bad he must be town"

My head is literally exploding.

[GreyICE]

Why would Kagami, a person who has been away from mafia for quite some time and only replaced into the deadweight SilverWolf slot as a favor, play optimally?

It might be an unconscionable blunder for scum. But it's a NONSENSICAL STATEMENT from town.

[GreyICE]

Who will help me lynch Nacho if Kagami flips town?

Not I. Kagami is terrible, his play is trash, his reads are inconsistent, and he seems to have zero awareness of what's a good argument, what's a bad argument, whatever. It's sheer throwing shit at the wall to see if it sticks. I swear unto fucking god there is zero evidence that he has read this game. He vanished after his initial replace in just to show up yesterday saying the same bullshit he did on day 1. Silverwolf posted two terrible posts and is in two other games that she didn't replace out of. These are all GREAT REASONS to lynch someone. Hell, SilverWolf alone would be a great reason to lynch that slot!

Seraphim and Sotty are good votes, but if you want me to lynch Nacho based on that, hells no.

Now if Sotty flips scum, you've had my support since this post, it's saved in our team topic. Because that was some wonderful misdirection. But without that flip, fuck no.

Oh fine fuck it.

Vote: Sotty

I'm sure I'll get ANOTHER call for inconsistency from Kagami, but the number of fucks I give is actually literally zero.

[GreyICE]

Nacho, all I want for Christmas is a scum lynch. Give me a gun with 4 bullets, I will shoot Sotty, Kagami, Seraphim, and Hoopla. This will result in a minimum of two scum flips, I swear to you. Like quit mafia for being a shitter levels of swear here.

If you think I didn't notice you undercutting my pressure you forget that I really do actually give a fuck about the game.

I FUCKING WANT DEAD SCUM

Also the "what choice did Kagami have" post was shitty. Like, Kagami could have done many things. What he actually did was so amazingly fucking poor that it baffles the imagination, that's why he has an enormous wagon on him. I'm aware the philosophy of spaghetti logic when you're trying to get a lynch on scum, but that one was WIFOM as fuck. It looked like he tossed together a reads list in 15 seconds to appease me (his fucking first choice for scum, apparently) which would have been a much BETTER thing for you to highlight. Why you are painting Kagami as having a plan? That reads list was the most checked out of the game thing I've ever seen.

[GreyICE]

Like, go back and look at the reads list. It has the team names in it! He browsed to the front page and reordered the list!

Team Mafia 2015: Vanilla Nightless

1. Albert B. Rampage (Blue, Meth, Blade and Associates)
   
2. EddieFenix (The Leftovers)
   
3. GreyICE (TBD)
   
4. Hoopla (Confectionery Animals)
   
5. Kagami
   Silverwolf
   (The Hitmen)
   
6. Metal Sonic (team nocaps)
   
7. Nachomamma8 (Gestalt)
   
8. Seraphim (The Unviggable Vegetables)
   
9. Sotty7 (The Kliq)
   
10. wgeurts (Young and Beautiful)
    
11. Zar
    Empire
    (The Westeros Circlejerk)
    
12. ZZZX (TEAM WITH NO NAME)

Scum

GreyICE (TBD)
Hoopla (Confectionery Animals)

Zar Empire (The Westeros Circlejerk)
wgeurts (Young and Beautiful)
Metal Sonic (team nocaps)
Nachomamma8 (Gestalt)
ZZZX (TEAM WITH NO NAME)

EddieFenix (The Leftovers)
Seraphim (The Unviggable Vegetables)
Sotty7 (The Kliq)
Albert B. Rampage (Blue, Meth, Blade and Associates)

Town

He didn't even bother to remove Empire's name next to Zar's.

That's not the post of some mastermind. There ain't one ounce of shit given anywhere in that post. Were you just playing rabble rouser for ABR?

[GreyICE]

Fine.

Vote: Kagami

[GreyICE]

If Seraphim is town, I am just sad at the universe.

[GreyICE]

Dude, he just posted "I think this person who has a wagon on them and this other person who currently has one person voting them and doesn't have a wagon on them are both scum. Lemme go join the wagon of the person

WHO I PREVIOUSLY DECLINED TO JOIN WHEN SHE WAS ACTUALLY UNDER PRESSURE

"

I will actually shed a tear or two if that came from town.

[GreyICE]

If Seraphim is town, I am just sad at the universe.

When this game is done, I'll think I'll add this quote to my signature of "Seraphim sucks" quotes.

Also, suck my dick. If you want to simplify my vote to your own narrative and avoid the actual content of my posts (which, as Kagami has pointed out, is what most of your play consists of), feel free to continue doing so.

Are you actually proud of having a signature full of them?

To do this Metal Sonic style:

Unvote
Vote: sotty

I've mulled things over. All things considered, I still want a Hoopla lynch; her being scum is a sure thing for me at this point. But I figure that's something we can do in the future, I think.

Here's my concise rationale for my vote. No way are GreyICE and Kagami scum together; same with GreyICE and sotty. A scumflip from either of them means a cleared GreyICE. The reason I want sotty over Kagami is that sotty-scum almost certainly implicates Kagami but vice versa does not hold up as well. Sotty is actually distancing away from Kagami's defense and the subsequent smackdown with GreyICE in some of her posts, as she does not respond to them at all. (Take a look back thru ISO) I could imagine Kagami as scum trying to start noise to defend her scumbuddy and push the wagon onto GreyICE. Frankly, this is not something I would expect Kagami to do unless they were scum together or Kagami was town. I can explain this more if people want but I don't have time now.

I also resent being told that I'm lurking when I have a perfectly respectable post count thank you.

This is bizarre. First, you say this:

Meaning that the scumteam is within:Kagami, sotty, Eddie, Hoopla, Nacho

The only thing that seems to have evolved is that Sotty was town for a while. Okay, fine. There's some progression there. But you're always a day late and a dollar short to the wagon. Me and ABR need some votes to push Sotty, and you jumped ship. You literally actually jumped ship, to move to Hoopla. A Hoopla vote is a null thing. There are certain facts in a game of mafia. In this one, it is that Hoopla will not be alive when the game ends. The sun will rise, the sun will set, Hoopla will be lynched. Her copious, unbelievable lack of play has destined it. How you can get "certainly scum" from a slot that has posted less game-related content than SilverWolf (not SilverWolf's slot, the actual player) is a mystery. If anything, it looks to me to be building town cred from the lynch, because Hoopla being lynched is such an enormous inevitability that it's hard to contemplate any future where she is not lynched. She would need her post to be accompanied by a chorus of angels and a declaration from Jesus that she was pure, and even then it's 50/50. You just don't leave player slots that produce nothing at all alive in Vanilla nightless. It has nothing to do with them being "100% scum" and everything to do with the impossibility of working with a slot that doesn't exist (plus, yeah, not exactly town tell that).

When the wagon pressure on Sotty dissipates, literally, you show up again and state that the current wagon isn't as good as the Sotty wagon. And vote Sotty. When it was your own vote change that helped remove momentum on the Sotty wagon. With the reasoning that I am not scum with Kagami or Sotty, and that Sotty being scum is incredibly likely to imply Kagami being scum, while Kagami being scum is... what, they don't look good in any pairing frankly.

You are like the voting hipster of this game, refusing to vote a scum read if it seems likely that everyone else will vote them.

PEdit: I'm fine with Kagami burning. Do as you wish, you need no permission from me.

PEdit: I typed all this up you shitters stop spamming ARGH

[GreyICE]

I'm surprised that there was such a large disagreement to my D3/4 vengeful plan. It seems pretty logical to me when you look at how this setup is being played. The town is already splintering and shifting its energy in a way where it will be hard for us to lynch scum. I am not going to propose a new direction -- instead I am giving my vote to someone doing good things: GreyICE. I think his interaction with me was protown and he's going to be a great asset for the town deeper in the game. I believe he can this way as scum, but like I said earlier, if he is scum, I think this game is a write-off.

Grey, are we lynching Kagami? I want to know how serious your current vote is...

Yes, I would love to be a double voter.

No, I would not like for you to be alive.

This presents a conundrum.

[GreyICE]

Vote: Hoopla

This has to happen. This just fucking has to happen. I've scumread you as town, and once townread you as scum, but this has to happen.

[GreyICE]

A week. A goddamn week. And this is what we get.

I wash my hands of it. I don't care. I don't want any credit, I don't want any praise, I don't want any criticism, I just don't want your slot alive anymore. I'm actually quite sure lurkaherp, Cheery and Gamma aren't reading this game. I know Lurkaherp doesn't even read his own games, and the other two are hardly high content. But Hoopla, this is just terrible. It's miserable. It's the nadir of gameplay.

Pedit: ABR, this will be a town flip, look at the fucking velocity, like 60-70%. I don't even fucking care, this is an inevitability, and I'm tired of it. I am aware I am lynching one of my supporters, I am aware I am lynching an offer to be a doublevoter, but I can't take it. Literally every person in this game is putting in more effort, even fragging Kagami.

[GreyICE]

no problem.

i'm aware my play has been poor and i don't feel connected to the game yet -- that is the reason i'm offloading my vote to someone who will do something with it. i feel like my sheeping of a town player has more value than playing on my own.

of all the people suspicious of me, seraphim's scumread on me seems particularly arbitrary, and looks like he is currently taking advantage of this situation.

Y'know, I even get "not connected to the game". Sometimes the game is such an enormous group of mediocre lurking that you can't bring yourself to care.

This game? This game has all sorts of interesting things. There is not one player who I could say is actually fucking null in the game - except you. You're a black hole, your posts suck stuff out of the thread. Your plan is pro-town, what of it? A pro-town plan that is never implemented is not worth a pig fart, and you happily could have thought of it prior to role PM. What do you think of people's reactions? Who is town, who is scum?

This is so fucking arbitrary and sad. I expect you to be low content day 1, but this is literal no content. Literal none. I mean your entire reason I'm town is even "the game is lost if I'm scum". Really? You have the closest thing you'll ever get to a wagon on me, if you thought I was scum, maybe you could even swing it. You'll never get another shot, ever. Do you even try to read me? Nope, you offer me appeasement.

Do. Not. Want.

[GreyICE]

See, look. I don't think Sotty's town. But she's trying! See trying? That's the feeling I don't get from your posts.

[GreyICE]

See, look. I don't think Sotty's town. But she's trying! See trying? That's the feeling I don't get from your posts.

i try harder as scum. that isn't a valuable metric to read me by.

and i think this wagon on me is for punitive reasons as opposed to people actually thinking i'm scum.

My vote is. But the thing is, it's not like I'm voting for a 100% town read here. Maybe 50%.

Truly, do you think there's the least little chance of you living to the end of the game?

[GreyICE]

Is this like the political version of the word transparent, where everyone is for transparent government which means that no one learns what's happening?

Because I can't even fucking imagine why you would think anyone would think you were town from your posts.

[GreyICE]

You were willing to sheep me with your vote and you have no ideas on my alignment? O.O

[GreyICE]

Great, but you have a stronger town read on ABR apparently. You just said you trust me more in late game scenarios, and this is early game.

So why sheep me on Kagami, and not ABR on Sotty? Especially since you're suspicious of Sotty "buddying" you.

[GreyICE]

That's not a read on either Sotty or Kagami.

[GreyICE]

Please just hammer. This isn't a good lynch, it's a necessary one.

ABR, I will sheep you to fuck and back tomorrow if she's scum, but if she's town this is a blatant distraction from the Kagami wagon, which was a fucking justice wagon.

[GreyICE]

unvote

Vote Hoopla

Alright ABR, based on the flip here, where next? Hoopla-Town flip gets us?? Hoopla scum flip gets us??

Like this. Flies in from fucking nowhere. Says nothing about Kagami except his sad soft defense. Has said nothing about the big ugly turd that is Kagami's reads list, because the only fucking way scum can deal with that list is ignore it, because it is a giant middle finger to the entire game.

Or Seraphim. Just Seraphim.

[GreyICE]

Hoopla. She's done literally nothing to deserve to be alive in this game.

[GreyICE]

ISO her and cry.

[GreyICE]

If me and ABR aren't town reads, you are reading a different game.

It's possible, although somewhat unlikely, that the wagon is entirely town. Speed is not necessarily a reason to dismiss it either - there's literally no basis from her play to say that she's town, outside of "wagon speed"

[GreyICE]

GOD

FUCKING

DAMN

IT

Hoopla, I'm sorry, if you'd given me one iota of an indication that you were town, I'd have joined backed you 100%. Theory discussion is not it.

Damn this is going to suck.

[GreyICE]

A good place.

[GreyICE]

You are shitting me.

Unvote

No way. No fucking way. There is no way I am lynching town today.

Vote: Kagami

This is the right fucking play.

[GreyICE]

Go dunk your head in the fucking toilet and come back when you have some perspective. We labored with blood, sweat, and tears to build the fucking Sotty wagon. It was uphill both ways in the snow. The wagon on Silverwolf has been building since Silverwolf's second post, and getting votes on it is like carrying water in a sieve. We get six votes on a wagon in a handful of hours? FUCK THAT

PEdit: Oh fuck yeah, that is EXACTLY what people said about me in the first team mafia game. When I thought I'd been hammered. As town. IT FUCKING HAPPENS. I have seen it multiple times. I modded a game where it happened TWICE that people thought they had been hammered when they weren't.

You want me back, ABR? Prove it. Nacho challenge style. She flips scum, my vote is yours tomorrow. Vote me, vote wguerts (please don't), vote whoever. She flips town, your vote is mine, and we use it to get some ACTUAL FUCKING SCUMBAGS.

[GreyICE]

Come on ABR, I know you're still on. Prove to me that you mean this, that it isn't going to be "hurr durr, that needed to happen, I have some shitty meta read that Kagami is town from my team". I will fucking self vote if you win and want to lynch me. You got the balls to back your read?

[GreyICE]

Come on ABR. You said I was a coward, that I get cold feet. Show me this isn't all bluster. Because right now I've got an obvious scumbag versus an obvious lurker with a wagon that materializes IN SECONDS on the latter.

[GreyICE]

A blanket "I don't want to lynch Hoopla today, but that only applies to day 1" read on Hoopla. That negated any possibility of discussing lynching Hoopla day 1, and left every opportunity to turn that around on any later day. That's a scum post, through and through, but it doesn't mean Hoopla is scum. It just means Sotty is.

Fine, no insults. Is your money where your mouth is? We both know that the ability to hit submit on some post is worth very little. The ability to attach a vote to it is everything. I give you my vote, and I give you my identity in the town. I am a ghost for day 2. You give me your vote, and you are the same. My word of honor it will happen, has nothing to do with my alignment. Your word of honor, the same.

What say you? Because without that, my vote stays where it is.

[GreyICE]

I rather like the idea of Kagami today and Sotty tomorrow. LLD has a town read on Nacho. We are currently talking on Skype.

[GreyICE]

Okay, LLD's thoughts mostly mirror mine. She has a townier read on Sotty, which I don't have to agree with. Her best point was, and I summarize:

- Zar has provided a reads list without a vote. A reads list without a vote is air. He's now skated by for ages on Empire "not picking scum", Empire has apparently donated no reads to the game he was once a part of.

She likes the Kagami lynch, for the same reasons I do. She also thinks my play is crap, but she always thinks my play is crap. Love ya too, because I know you'll read this~

[GreyICE]

But of course, greyICE didn't do that! In 699, he totally wrote those off the top of his head. Including correctly capitalizing everyone's name but wgeurts's, all while chatting to people in his apartment. He also reorganized the OP, because that's the sensible thing to do, he just formatted it differently so he could have another rubbish argument to throw at me.

Note for those following:

699 is my reads list

, which he asked for. Kagami is criticizing my reads list, friends. Including the fact that it was incorrectly capitalized. You want to know why it had such bad grammar? Because I wrote it off the top of my head because I remember ALL ELEVEN PLAYERS IN THIS GAME. ((Well okay, LLD pointed out I was giving Zar a free pass for bad reasons, but you know what I mean ))

Explanation for his? La de da. La. De. Dah.

[GreyICE]

But of course, greyICE didn't do that! In 699, he totally wrote those off the top of his head. Including correctly capitalizing everyone's name but wgeurts's, all while chatting to people in his apartment. He also reorganized the OP, because that's the sensible thing to do, he just formatted it differently so he could have another rubbish argument to throw at me.

Note for those following:

699 is my reads list

, which he asked for. Kagami is criticizing my reads list, friends. Including the fact that it was incorrectly capitalized. You want to know why it had such bad grammar? Because I wrote it off the top of my head because I remember ALL ELEVEN PLAYERS IN THIS GAME. ((Well okay, LLD pointed out I was giving Zar a free pass for bad reasons, but you know what I mean ))

Explanation for his? La de da. La. De. Dah.

You don't actually read anything, do you?

Explanations for reads list?

According to you, not answering the main thrust of people's posts is a certain scum tell. Would you say you're scum, since like everyone actually paying attention has asked you to explain that absurd post?

[GreyICE]

According to you, ... is a certain scum tell.

You keep saying rubbish like this and are never able to back it up.

I quote:

You respond to posts. You do not address accusations in any of those. Not one.

In your list you even include 364, wherein you deliberately dodge the vast majority of 354, you only "respond" to the most minor of points.

You believe that you will be "caught for the wrong reasons" if you actually defend yourself.

You see, secretly I am reading you. Do my eyes glaze on MS walls? Sure. I didn't always read all of MOI walls either, and I avoid reading mastin's walls like they're plague (they make you less informed about the gamestate, so they kinda are). Do I read the posts my scumreads make. Fuck yes.

[GreyICE]

I want to address this too.

Switching votes is not inconsistent. Changing your mind is not inconsistent (in the context of scum motivation). Even voting a player you believe to be town is often not inconsistent. There is nothing wrong with the above post, and trying to say that I would have an issue with it is an attempt to discredit.


Here's a lesson for everyone from kagami's school of mafia. It's much nicer and gentler than ABR's.

Inconsistency as a scumtell is not about vote-hopping or being flexible. It's about betraying an underlying belief that shouldn't be mutable, typically as tool to falsify town or scumreads.

For example, saying that someone is an amazing scum player just after saying they're the worst scum player in the universe is not consistent with a town frame. Believing that the key to victory is a solid townblock which decides lynches together is not consistent with believing that the correct strategy is to let lynched players decide the lynch. Insisting that the townblock needs 5 players in not consistent with certainty that the player being lynched today is scum. Townreading one player for wanting to form a townblock with players for whom there is no belief that they are town is not consistent with scumreading another player for the same, independent of a future change of heart.

Are you actually reading, or pretending to? I said Sotty is a

Legendary

scum player. This is unequivocally true. She had a title for it. She's famous for it. Her scum play is some of the most complimented on this site. If Sotty returned for a last hurrah, it's very easy to think that she would select scum for it. Mith did it in the first team mafia, and he's the site's founder! That gives me a very good reason to believe that she would token scum, and LLD's game (pre-remake) gives me a very good reason to believe those who token scum would get it.

I also said her general play and OMGUS vote on me where she said that "Tokens are a terrible reason to vote" and "you should have voted Hoopla for tokens!" were terrible scum play, and her push on me was terrible in general. In fact if you think that Sotty's play this game has even approached good, I would please ask you to review her ISO. It is NOT easy to get back into the swing of things after long absence, and in general scum is very much harder than town.

There is literally zero contradiction here. Nacho knew this. ABR knew this. People paying attention knew that the two points were entirely separate. Your point isn't even a minor point, it's so bad it's like complaining I didn't capitalize people's names correctly! Oh wait...

[GreyICE]

Y'know, I'm fine letting you do your own thing, ABR, but you have no faith in that wagon. If you did, you'd rejoice in getting an extra vote tomorrow. You've got the same doubts as me that she's scum, you're just holding back a stronger scum read because this "has to happen". But it doesn't have to happen. We lynch 2 scum, even 1 scum, then sure. But a day 1 scum lynch blows this game wide open.

[GreyICE]

I don't want a 30%. BECAUSE THERES A FOUR VOTE BLOCK TO SAY WHICH 30% HAPPENS.

Sotty shows up irregularly to bring us regular heartbreaking stories of how she labors for 12 hours each day in the coal mines, splitting rocks with her bare hands, only to collapse exhausted into the chair and laboriously read the game. Strangely her own team must be in the coal mines next to her, because they ain't helping.

Kagami is sitting there busily hoping you'll give him enough time to backfill a reads list that was utterly insane.

Seraphim flat out admits his own posts were shit.

Zar posts a lame reads list WITH NO VOTE as one of his only two posts in the thread. The thread which Empire used to be a part of, has no insight on, and... Nothing.

Wguerts produced more content on VLA than some of these people. But only one "30%" wagon has exploded upwards.

[GreyICE]

If Sotty returned for a last hurrah, it's very easy to think that she would select scum for it. Mith did it in the first team mafia, and he's the site's founder! That gives me a very good reason to believe that she would token scum, and LLD's game (pre-remake) gives me a very good reason to believe those who token scum would get it.

Whoa whoa whoa stop here son. Just because somebody did something doesn't mean that another specific person would do the same thing. Slippery slope argument. Logic gap. Nonsense. Bad argument.

And even if you "think" that she would token scum (P.S: nobody in their right mind tokens scum in this setup),

"LLD's game (pre-remake) gives me a very good reason to believe those who token scum would get it."

is a terrible fallacy. This shit won't hold up in a debate argument. Even if the conclusion is true (I do not know), it is an objectively terrible argument. Objectively.

Mafia ain't a debate, son. If it's a debate, then the same players will always be lynched, because debating ability is utterly independent of any sort of objective truth. I've watched a creationist demolish a guy with a PhD in biology in a stand-up, on-camera, lots of prep time debate, trust me, debating is good only for the entertainment of people who enjoy watching debates.

Fact is, tokens are a damn good reason to look at someone hard. Replacing out from one specific game is a damn good reason to look at a slot hard.

Oh and debates? Debates are useless here. You should know that if you know anything about debates - you debate philosophy, not facts. You debate "what should abortion policy be" or "what's a good tax rate" not "Is water in fact wet" or "Can you burn a piece of wood in a normal atmosphere". Role PMs are facts. You get them at the start of the game. You'll never win over scum to the idea that their role PM is red, they know for a fact it is long before you start "debating" them. Wagons good, debates bad.

Speaking of wagons, Nacho. It's a scooter. One of those put put electric scooters. I feel like I'd need a mall cop uniform to get on it.

[GreyICE]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: kagami

hehe

You're going to ask after this game "why was I lynched?"

And I'm just going to reply

You talk about bringing people together. The only thing this entire town is united in is the hatred of your posts.

Vote: Hoopla

You chose this. You fucking chose this. If you're town, you chose to waste a lynch. If you're scum you chose to fuck your team over.

My suspicion is you're town, but the number of fucks I give is literally zero. You are a jester, and I'll fucking yell when you green flip, but we're literally never going to get a wagon around here without you dead.

[GreyICE]

And no. You don't get another chance. You had a chance when you came in late. You had another when I gave you two days to post something. You had a third when I actually derailed your lynch after the wrong hammer.

Well guess what, ABR isn't wrong. You could fake that. Three fucking strikes. Get out.

[GreyICE]

Vote: Kagami

[GreyICE]

No.

[GreyICE]

No.

may i ask:

why not?

Nacho is town.

Fucking dithered in my reads yesterday, this is what I get.

Kagami is scum, he dies.

[GreyICE]

Oh good god.

ZZZX, this is the reasoning you're getting?

You know why Kagami is a good vote. Nacho wants Kagami dead. Nothing suddenly changed. Just because someone is town, doesn't make them right. Stop listening to ABR's ridiculous crusades, and get on a good wagon. I'm done with the rabbit hole of following the guy who very much earned the title "Illogical Rampage"

[GreyICE]

Cool. Then let us in on your little democratic discussions.

You know what else is a democracy? This town. And my vote is on Kagami. And it shall not go on Nacho today. And however much yelling you do, I have a role PM from Quadz that tells me I'm town, and you don't get one single vote on that. So you're either going to have to recruit every single other townie, or get Nacho with scum votes. And if you get scum votes, I don't need to tell you how that flip is going.

[GreyICE]

Your town read on Kagami is that strong? For the love of god, why? That one piece of meta?

I've been scumbuddies with Nacho, he lurked and was disinterested so much that I threw him under the bus and won solo. There's my meta piece, he's town.

Give me more than that.

[GreyICE]

Zar? Sotty? Seraphim? Kagami?

That's off the top of my head people that Nacho has pushed and prodded at. And those are all good people to prod at.

Nope. I'm not even considering it. Not even a little bit. Even if you were 110% convinced, divine ordinance from God, that Nacho was scum, there's still three others.

[GreyICE]

Y'know, one of my favorite players is UncertainKitten. And she had a famous saying, "Voting for me when I'm town is a scumtell". And it is oh so true. Why not go Quitoxe and spend all day pushing me? If people are gonna give him town reads for it, it's good for days.

But tell me, what does your team think of Eddie and Seraphim?

[GreyICE]

I've been scumbuddies with Nacho, he lurked and was disinterested so much that I threw him under the bus and won solo.

I mean, fuck, he just bragged that he won a scumgame solo while bussing nacho.

it just confirms my suspicion that he is capable of all this shit

... it was a newbie game. You can win a newbie game with a scum role PM by just typing random words and posting more than once every four days. "And I think that the pan-galactic gargle blaster shows this is a good vote. Vote: Dave". "Well that made more sense than three other posters in the game, you're probably town"

This Nacho push is heavy in rhetoric and light in anything resembling why I should give a shit. No thanks.

Greyice, do you read the posts of players that you scumread?

Read? Sure. Interact with or give much credence to? Not really. Spending four pages discussing with scum the color of their role PM is a pointless exercise.

[GreyICE]

Interact with or give much credence to? Not really. Spending four pages discussing with scum the color of their role PM is a pointless exercise.

I dont like this.

If you are town you dont know for sure who has a "red" PM. if you dont interact with people you "scum read' then your read is built on nothing.

My scum read is based on how they act with the town and previous interactions with me. Further interactions once a wagon is building are usually just appeasement and trying to make me change my mind. These are not things that particularly interest me.

also I am feeling just a tad better about kagami. Idk about nacho but how about we lynch... a third person?

Because my head hurts with everything going on.

Who would you say then?

[GreyICE]

Sotty is pushing me to vote Seraphim. How do you feel about Sotty?

[GreyICE]

VLA for a day or two. Death in the family

[GreyICE]

Alright, I'm going to try to get back into this. The above made me shit my pants laughing though. Let me highlight it for those who missed it.

Now, point by point so a certain someone can't say I'm ignoring him:

1) His opening in the game is essentially dumping on sotty a lot, and then throwing some townreads out in 261. In addition to wqierts, ABR, nacho, ZZZX for town, there was my wagon, which seemed like a stealthy way of adding Hoopla to the list. A few posts later he explicitly adds hoopla, for evidently a completely different reason. I asked him about the hoopla thing later. He gives a rubbish response, when there were multiple reasonable responses he could have given, and ultimately ditched the townread before the day is over. So yeah, I found that pretty damning.

My opening to the game was indeed to push a player that I thought had a high probability of being scum based on game mechanics. And Kagami approves of that approach.

"The best point [GreyICE] makes is the token thing"

is a direct quote from Kagami. So by all evidence he should approve of this approach. The other point here is that I was apparently stealthily adding

Hoopla

to the town block. I won't even comment on how dead that is, except it comes up later. So lets note it here.

2) Seraphim is the one who intercepts, asks for why, and I oblige. This is where scum-seraphim votes kagami; it's a perfect alternative wagon for divided votes that ensures town lynches stay in the lead. I don't think I had votes at the time, but had plenty of negative sentiment, which is the juciest jump of all. He doesn't, and I see no scum motivation to change direction on GI regardless of grey's alignment. (I didn't really think of it in such depth initially, but it's worth being out there)

Seraphim strongly scum. Interesting given what's coming up in a bit.

3) Rest of the day, you're largely correct that my opinion wasn't getting changed. I don't like any of the rest of GI's behavior.

GI jumping on seraphim was bad.

GI explicitly says that vengeful is pro-town (but not kagami's weak-sauce stuff) was bad. A lot of his argument is in dismissing what I'm saying as "throwing everything at him,"

Catch that? Me jumping on scum-Seraphim is bad. And is more likely to make me scum. With Seraphim.

while accusing me of the silliest things like the reads-list reordering.

Remember the reads list, friends? This reads list? Lets fucking quote it:

Scum

GreyICE (TBD)
Hoopla (Confectionery Animals)

Zar Empire (The Westeros Circlejerk)
wgeurts (Young and Beautiful)
Metal Sonic (team nocaps)
Nachomamma8 (Gestalt)
ZZZX (TEAM WITH NO NAME)

EddieFenix (The Leftovers)
Seraphim (The Unviggable Vegetables)
Sotty7 (The Kliq)
Albert B. Rampage (Blue, Meth, Blade and Associates)

Town

Kagami is literally just dodging this.

But lets be clear, ABR, scum need three mislynches. Wanna see them?

Seraphim is the one who intercepts, asks for why, and I oblige.

This is where scum-seraphim votes kagami; it's a perfect alternative wagon for divided votes that ensures town lynches stay in the lead.

...

GI jumping on seraphim was bad.

Nachomamma8 (3) - Albert B. Rampage, ZZZX, Metal Sonic
Seraphim (1) - Sotty7

And moi.

You really think that Kagami is honestly reading the game and believes that Seraphim is scum and that I am scummy for jumping on Seraphim? Nah. That's not an actual read given by a townie trying to figure out the game. Kagami quickly ISOed me to try and explain all the "scummy" things he did, and forgot his "scumread" on Seraphim.

[GreyICE]

Lets see, lemme review.

- ABR has a scum list with at max two scum on it. Max
- Wguerts making sense. Don't agree on Sotty, but c'est la vie
- Eddie literally waiting like a vulture to be "convinced" due to previous stances, because this is like Christmas.
- Nacho is definitely town
- Zar is making wallposts. Make sense though.

Has anyone noticed the lack of stance Sotty has taken on her good friend Nacho? Which is to say they've played a TON together, and she's literally said nothing.

Seraphim is living up to his name. Which is to say he has to be in heaven, because there's no earthly explanation for his lack of posting. Quadz, mind prodding him again? He hasn't posted since before I started my VLA

[GreyICE]

Hey Kagami:

- Why is Seraphim scum, but I am scummy for jumping on Seraphim?
- How do you explain your reads list?

Can you answer?

[GreyICE]

You know I actually line-by-line responded to you just to cut out the whining that I "only respond to weak points". And here we are.

Why does anyone think Kagami is town? Because "meta" says he'd be playing better than this?

Pedit:

This is where scum-seraphim votes kagami;

Do explain, Kagami. Do explain. Perhaps I have not grasped your genius, what convoluted explanation is there for how Seraphim is actually one of your town reads?

[GreyICE]

Yes.

Unvote
Vote: Kagami

My vote should be here, it didn't registered for whatever reason.

I don't have one fucking clue what you're talking about at this point.

[GreyICE]

I... what?

Is English your first language?

[GreyICE]

No, that doesn't help...

[GreyICE]

Okay, so basically... Seraphim is town for voting Hoopla, and for not trying to lynch you. Even you admit that's a backfill reason that you thought out right now, although apparently it was "in your subconscious" or something like that when you were copy-pasting that reads list.

I suppose that now explains Seraphim and Sotty. Oh and Hoopla was scum because I was scum with Hoopla. Right. Well, that's three names on that list. Great explanations too. Planning to circle around to the rest later?

Oh and I had an odd thought since you reminded me. Cabd's title is "Every Breath You Take" because he reads like... every game on site. He's famous for knowing the metas of even obscure people who have played in only a handful of games. Given that, and given that your entire game revolves around me, how is it that it takes NACHO to tell you basic facts about things I find scummy?

[GreyICE]

So basically... we're not getting a scum lynch today? Lets poll the scum and ask them how they're feeling about this!

Votecount 2.5

Seraphim (1) - Sotty7

Not Voting (3) - EddieFenix, Kagami, Seraphim

Yep, big bowl of popcorn and watching the action in their thread.

[GreyICE]

It's a shame hoopla flipped town as otherwise we could of take the following lynch path: Nacho>ICE>Kagami.
Nacho flipping scum would make the town-bloc recieve a stronger foundation and many have voiced oppinions (or not) so it's a rather informative lynch (though I do doubt wether he's actually scum). Then ICE would also provide a lot of information, him flipping scum would confirm kagami as town (ugh).

The most informative lynches are GreyICE and Nacho (Two of my town reads :\), GreyICE reveals the most if mafia however if she flips town we gain little to nothing except an even more suspicious looking kagami.

We need a structured plan for if Nacho flips town, what information can we still scrape if ABR is wrong?

You're voting a town read? What is this shit.

[GreyICE]

MetalSonic: Hoopla lynch had to happen. Her own actions. I find it fucking hilarious that you are trying to make me out for scum for it. Yesterday you were whining I was trying to protect Hoopla. Maybe I was trying to get a read on her? The rest of your points are that apparently you can twist my words to try and make some sort of contradiction, and lots of posts of

slam

and that apparently I am "intimidating" other players.

If "ignoring the rest of your shitty arguments" is scummy, so be it. I'm town, and everything you're blathering on about was literally me trying to understand the game.

[GreyICE]

Zar / Grey

Actuall Thoughts no nacho?

Is this "on" Nacho?

Nacho has a strong belief in the strength of his own scumhunting. He states he used two tokens to be town this game. While I believe players might lie about how they used their tokens (aka "town" rather than "scum") it's my experience most lies in mafia are fairly close to the truth ("I'm the town jailkeeper" rather than "I'm the scum roleblocker"). Therefore I do believe Nacho used two tokens, and I do believe those two tokens were for town. Right there would be where I initially tagged him as strong town.

Is it just the tokens? No. Nacho is strongly scumhunting. He has repeatedly offered self-sacrifice for his reads getting lynched, something which is of no benefit to the scum (1:1 trading is enormously townsided in this setup). Reference ABR's own "school of scumhunting." Shall I quote it?

1) Is this post biased by an existing conflict or tunnel?
2) Are its assumptions based on known or verifiable quantities?
3) Does it make any sort of sense at all? Throw a wide net on this one. Anything???

Read this list: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6755979

This VCA is also very good: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p6755634

In short, Nacho is making sense, he's making good posts, he's actively engaged with the town, and the self-sacrifice is high. It's the opposite of what I'd expect from scum, especially nacho-scum (who likes to fade into the background).

[GreyICE]

I felt his scum hunting way too weak.

and there is no sacrifice because it ends up with nothing happening with "oh god i was wrong" kind of calling once its done and its gone.

sadly thats how it works out most of the time when scum do it.

I honestly felt his play was subpar. I need to re-read him...

Really? With ABR here? It just gets "let go"?

[GreyICE]

Wait, an Eddie vote?

ABR you are Santa Claus! I <3 you

Vote: Eddie

MetalSonic, I literally loath you and your play. I make a strong effort to post posts that are coherent, logical thoughts. I make a strong effort to clearly and concisely communicate, to not post meandering walls, to try and actually communicate what I am thinking. When you put zero effort into understanding my posts, as you have done, you remove my desire to communicate with you. 550 was an embarrassment. Even you realized how bad it was:

He never actually responded to this.

Well, actually he JUST responded to it. And I accidentally shot it down. Whoops.

I will make one last effort, because I strongly believe you are town. There's the seed of a decent scumhunter in you, but you have no ability to read context or anything beyond a tunnel. This cripples you, because it reduces you to an automaton. "X is scummy! Y is townie!" It's robot logic. If you actually volunteer that you will read, I will explain things to you, again. But if you don't wish to, or I detect

one single

sign that you clicked post reply and started typing BEFORE YOU FINISHED READING MY POST then we are done communicating, and we shall be ships passing in the night. I shall never address you on MafiaScum again, and if you accidentally end up in a game with me, then you shall have to divine my feelings with my vote. If you cannot read my posts, and wish only to parse them to fit your pre-conceived notions, my communication with you can only be with the Vote, a thing so blatant and obvious a six year old child could understand it.

[GreyICE]

I don't want kowtowing. I want to communicate with you like an adult. if you wish to communicate as a child, or some Glenn Beck talking head, then I have no need to speak to you, I believe you are town, but I am long past the point where I wish to coddle children. For that I shall require money.

Do you have the capacity and desire to do so?

[GreyICE]

Capacity, yes. Desire? As a wise man once said: "It's a waste of time to discuss with scum the color of his role PM"

Then are we finished here? If you can't even comprehend why I made a terrible meta argument about Nacho after disliking the Kagami argumebt, you are reading an ISO without context, not the game. If you don't want to discuss it, I'm not wasting my time.

[GreyICE]

I demand a replacement for Seraphim. 5 days, 13 hours. He's done, get him out of here.

[GreyICE]

Nacho, you're made of awesome. Never change.

[GreyICE]

Nacho, you're made of awesome. Never change.

2nd

See GreyICE, we can actually agree with each other! About facts or opinions! Outside of this dirty game agenda!

It's not that I disagree with you. Hell, my girlfriend has mislynched me twice. If I got torn up over that, I wouldn't be playing mafia. Hell, I've violently disagreed with everyone from Regfan to Glork. Only Llamarble is someone who I will 100% hydra readlock with (another reason I don't want to lynch Nacho, but a shitty one)

My beef is how you've just ISOed me and looked for things. Like, ABR. Let me bullet point it:

- His

only

reason for thinking Kagami=Town that I got was link to a game and the word "meta"
- The only case on Nacho was... uh... basically "This isn't the town Nacho I remember"

Therefore, I made the point "I have meta on Nacho! So you must think he's town. Or we can agree to give each other actual reads and shit rather than saying 'meta' and yelling a lot". Of course it was terrible, it was meant to point out to ABR why I disliked what he was doing.

My actual thoughts on Nacho are here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6760139

It's stuff like this. It's not "inconsistent", it's looking through the literally THOUSANDS of words I've written in this game and taking two bits out of context to say "look, inconsistency". Frankly it's how you build a case as scum, it's why the meme "cases are scummy" started, and I think you're town so the fact that you're doing it is really annoying. I have this weird feeling that whenever you see one of my posts you're opening it up in a quote window and parsing it paragraph by paragraph, not actually reading and thinking about why I'm posting something. Oh, that'd be because you literally did that with one of my posts (you made points that I brought up in the next paragraph, clearly showing you responded to one paragraph before you read the next one).

Scum is in intent, Metal. Intent. It's not found in grammar, or syntax, or by parsing a post six times looking for hidden meaning. It's not even found in passion - as much as Nacho thinks it is, I've known many scum who can go on a good carpet-chewing rant, and quite a few town who are nearly emotionless. You have to read to see the intent, and if you're not doing that, it really kills any desire I have to communicate.

[GreyICE]

My beef is how you've just ISOed me and looked for things. Like, ABR. Let me bullet point it:

- His only reason for thinking Kagami=Town that I got was link to a game and the word "meta"
- The only case on Nacho was... uh... basically "This isn't the town Nacho I remember"

Therefore, I made the point "I have meta on Nacho! So you must think he's town. Or we can agree to give each other actual reads and shit rather than saying 'meta' and yelling a lot". Of course it was terrible, it was meant to point out to ABR why I disliked what he was doing.

I didn't ISO you for the points. I ISO'ed myself and my team thread causee i documented everything there. I forgot to document my eddie townread so I had trouble when ABR asked me the question earlier. bad habits.

I ISO'd you to grab the quotes that were necessary evidence.

It's not "inconsistent", it's looking through the literally THOUSANDS of words I've written in this game and taking two bits out of context to say "look, inconsistency".

I didn't take just "2 bits" out of context sir. You clearly don't read

my posts

, cause I have over 10 examples of valid inconsistencies that you have written, some of which I found agreeable originally from Kagami and/or Sotty.

why the meme "cases are scummy" started

I need to read up on my "history"! I also have the maxim "cases are scummy", but I actually generated it myself independetly! In my definition, it means that caught scum who yell "WHERE'S YOUR CASE ON ME??" or "WRITE A CASE TO SHOW THAT I AM SCUMMY" should be hanged. I came up with it by myself so I'm surprised that the one that chamber has a different meaning!

I have this weird feeling that whenever you see one of my posts you're opening it up in a quote window and parsing it paragraph by paragraph, not actually reading and thinking about why I'm posting something.

Those aren't mutually exclusive things!

Thinking about why you're posting something is a RESULT of parsing your posts paragraph by paragraph!

You can't get B without doing A!

Scum is in intent, Metal. Intent. It's not found in grammar, or syntax, or by parsing a post six times looking for hidden meaning. It's not even found in passion - as much as Nacho thinks it is, I've known many scum who can go on a good carpet-chewing rant, and quite a few town who are nearly emotionless. You have to read to see the intent, and if you're not doing that, it really kills any desire I have to communicate.

That's where

you're wrong

we disagree!

INTENT CAN BE FOUND IN GRAMMAR, SYNTAX, OR (hidden meaning after parsing a post six times). What is a "scumslip"? Often poor players refer to them as "how do you

know

this player is town?" or such. That's stuff found in SYNTAX and HIDDEN MEANING. An extremely simplistic example, I'm admitting this now, but there.

And it's funny how you are insinuating that I am scumreading you for

everything wrong but not intent,

because

Spoiler: Is "motivation" a synonym for intent?

This, dear class, is a textbook example of a self-contradiction. Distressingly, there are possible scum motivations for such a contradiction, which is regretful to hear from GreyICE.

Spoiler: What about "motives"

Point 1: GreyICE has a significant number of self-contradictory posts that show a capability of scum-motivated actions.

Okay, you have a point that a CTRL+F for the word "intent" doesn't show up, but still. Attempting to paint my accusations as lacking analysis into motivations (my synonym for "intent"!) has obvious scum intents!!

Wait, you think that scum intent is found in "contradiction"? Hell, there's nothing easier as scum than diving into a tunnel and watching everyone give you a pass for it, especially if it excuses massive lurking (

time since Kagami last posted: 2 days 11 hours

). What is the motive, as scum, for "contradicting" yourself? And do you admit you're wrong about the "meta" contradiction?

Because if you can answer those, and answer them in a way I find acceptable, we can talk. If not, I'm calling this out as done.


Oh and one last callout:

Thinking about why you're posting something is a RESULT of parsing your posts paragraph by paragraph!

This is fucking bullshit. Paragraphs are not unrelated. Or if they are, you're reading the disjointed rantings of a madman, or an ADD kid who lost his prescription. A leads to B. B leads to C. Analyzing A without B and B without C leads to you just fucking up. It's like reading "out, out damned spot" and assuming Macbeth is about the difficulties of doing laundry in the middle ages.

[GreyICE]

A week? You mean that under this ruleset, a player could post once every six days, and that's fine? This is the site now?

Well this is giving me a number of reasons to quit mafiascum, just period.

[GreyICE]

What.

Nevermind Nacho, if that guy is town, lynch me.

[GreyICE]

Ooh ooh yell yell.

No really, he's claiming that he's fine with getting lynched so that Mollie, his teammate - not him, his teammate - can tell Nacho in later games that he can't read her?

Yeah right

[GreyICE]

The context was that I was making a terrible argument IN DIRECT RESPONSE TO ABR'S ARGUMENT, WHICH WAS A MIRROR OF MINE.

Why was ABR's argument about Kagami = town good, Sonic?

Pedit: I'm attempting to determine if you're worth talking to. If you're just going to tunnel and insist everything you say is gold, then I really don't give a shit. You're not going to make me not town by blathering on, and I have no problem telling you to go fuck yourself.

[GreyICE]

Sure.

Oh and by the way, MetalSonic? Go fuck yourself.

[GreyICE]

Why was ABR's argument about Kagami = town

Quote the post where ABR mentions that Kagami = town.

My team thinks Kagami is town, based on her scum game in Inuyasha: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=58247

They also think wgeurts and Nacho are scum.

I have some experience with Kagami in MTG mafia. He was consistent, streamlined, didn't make glaring mistakes. Completely under the radar, reasoned and justified reads lists. Titus reports the same thing from Inuyasha.

Kagami isn't going to re-invent the wheel.

It's a high risk lynch. It won't blow the game wide open either. Our safest bets are Seraphim and Sotty.

See?

If Abr's meta argument was terrible,

Which is a fair stance to take,

In comparison,

Yours goes way down the deep end.


Relativity. Always good in a closed setting.

See this is what I mean. I gave my actual reasons I thought Nacho was town. Do you pay attention to that? No. You think you stick your hand up your ass and pull out gold nuggets. That's why it's a waste of my fucking time to talk to you.

[GreyICE]

Sorry, I forgot my helmet.

[GreyICE]

I want to sheep Nacho's reads without lynching him. It would be so very much cooler.

That being said, I'll follow confirmed town's plan if ABR is gonna be a ding dong.

[GreyICE]

It's time for our daily three sentences from Eddie. He reads Kagami town because I'm scum. It's funny because all of Kagami's reads are based on me being scum too.

These are not the thoughts of town deducing the game, they are a backfill logic. "X is town because Y is scum". Ya hah.

HEY EDDIE! You know how you claim that the one unshakable fact you know about the game is that I am scum? And you've been saying this since mid yesterday? I want to offer you a simple new strategy. Self-vote! It's blatantly obvious you're ineffective at pushing lynches. You've been whining for mine for two days, and the only person who gives a crap is MetalSonic. You're crap at pushing lynches, Eddie. Or your heart really isn't in it, because you know how my flip will go and you don't want it today.

So Eddie! Lets do it. You and me, Eddie. Throw down. We'll see which way the town swings, and when it's over? You'll be dead, and we'll have a nice red scum flip. But come on, Eddie, come to the show. I'll self-vote tomorrow if you're town, but you're so so not.

[GreyICE]

Wanna see fake passion? That's fake passion.

You ain't so stupid as to not notice that, ABR.

[GreyICE]

He's using the fact he's offensive to hide the fact that he's scum.

He's using the "read" he has on me to hide, ABR. Has been since day 1. Hoopla saw it, I see it, Nacho sees it, and if you would open your eyes for one second, you'd see it. There are a number of players who are active lurking and not contributing, but Eddie is high up there.

He's a roach. A nasty little insect who hides and flies around and is scared of the light. Nacho ain't scared of the light, ABR. Your case is crap, your read is crap, come lynch scum.

[GreyICE]

Come on, ABR. You've been town many times. Have you, as town, ever, ever, ever, ever reacted to a push on you, a push based not on night role claims, but on just dayplay by saying "well lynch me, it'll help contribute to your meta read of me?"

Does that strike you as who Eddie is, ABR? That "I never self vote" combined with the self-sacrifice? You know that don't ring true, ABR. The roach with no testicles dies.

[GreyICE]

Then talk to me. Why fucking Nacho, ABR. Lets go over what I've been given

Titus believes that he's aiming to be the most credible person rather than finding scum. The theory spec, the sudden unnatural confidence in Kagami scum, how he's not harassing anyone like his town self. I was also recently scum with Nacho. He always seems reasonable, and here, I think that I found the chink in the armor.

Except that he's prodded everyone from me, to metalsonic, to sotty, to Kagami, to Empire. You're saying someone aiming to be the most credible person would say "lynch me if Kagami is town?" Fuck that. You didn't even want to give me your blithering vote over Hoopla, and I'm fucking expected to believe that Nacho wants credibility here? Fuck that.

I'm sure that Nacho is scum. He's participating elsewhere and avoiding this game

Really? Because there's actually a function to check that. And it seems to show me a pattern of burst posting in each game, followed by a rotation to another one. I don't see this pattern, ABR.

-------------------------------------------

I want to put a third argument here, but oh wait. That's it. You're saying I should lynch Nacho over this?

That's offensive ABR. That's what I'd call offensive.

[GreyICE]

Unvote

This is interesting. Don't know if it comes from a scum slot. Although Eddie was dead today or tomorrow, whether or not Nacho was lynched.

Do you feel there's been a "rush" to get Eddie lynched?

[GreyICE]

Also, on a personal note, thank you for joining us.

[GreyICE]

yes.

which is something you were a part of.

I am on benadryl right now cos I cldn't breathe but it puts me to sleep. the humidity and the pollen are fucking over the top.

I wld love to have your reads on kagami, nacho, abr and mebbe some1 else was it sotty? tia

So this was a pressure replace, pure and simple. Okay. Well, you want some reads?

Kagami

- Lurky scum who hides enormous content gaps behind one lazy read. All other "reads" just stem back, meaning if I'm ever lynched, he's a blank slate.

Nacho

- blatantly obviously town. No one can even give me a coherent reason why he's being wagoned.

ABR

- I can read ABR very quickly, and he's unfortunately extremely town. I don't even know why you want this read.

Sotty

- mellow scum read. Her lack of engagement is obvious, and she just hasn't reached out to anyone she knows here, including Hoopla yesterday. Didn't really reach out to try and learn anything about Hoopla and let her die with only the mildest of resistance.

[GreyICE]

By the by, Silverwolf is still posting tons of content in other games she's alive in: http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?s ... 3&start=25

[GreyICE]

Kagami, Mollie. You've read enough to "counter" my reads, as if I wasn't sharing information with you, as if this is a duel, but you don't know that?

Vote: Pirate mollie