Newbie 621 (Game Over!)

[mercdaemon]

/confirm

[mercdaemon]

Also, my vote was not random.

Explain your logic, please?

Vote: Silencio

(random)

[mercdaemon]

Malex, Merc what kind of logic are you looking for?

Malex, explain the rest of your comment please?

TSQ said his vote isn't random. If it's not, then there must be some reason behind pointing to you. As I see it, there's very little evidence, maybe TSQ has picked up on some little thing that I haven't? Maybe you've both played before and he thinks you're dangerous? I don't know, but I'd like to.

[mercdaemon]

As I see it, there's very little evidence, maybe TSQ has picked up on some little thing that I haven't?

You mean before I even posted anything? What are you suggesting he picked up on? Thin air?

I'm not suggesting he picked up on anything in particular. I'm asking, as this is my first online game. Maybe TSQ decided that the time you posted or the order in which you posted in regards to other people are significant. I don't know, which is why I ask.

[mercdaemon]

Nahraza coming in and not commenting on the previous 2.5 pages of finger pointing at all, over multiple posts, does seem suspicious. Okay, you may not have played on this particular board before and you may not have read up on other games, but surely you would have read the contents of

this

game.

For now, that's an IGMEOY/FoS/whatever from me. Would like to hear what you have to say, my opinion may changed based on that.

[mercdaemon]

Anything else to say that isn't just echoing what was already mentioned on Nahraza?

On the topic of Nahraza, I think you covered the high spots with your last post.

However, I'd like to revisit the topic of TSQ:

Wrong. TSQ is obviously voting me because he's played with me before. (Which is the real reason I'm voting him. I would still be voting him regardless of whether or not he was voting me)

Nah, I'm betting its because before this game is out TSQ and I will end up having given each other huge headaches (if 509 is any indication).

[quote="thestatusquo]
You are making a poor assumption here. I am not voting mirth because I've played with her before. I don't even recall having played with her before. I may have, but I dont remember.

The vote has nothing to do with any past game. It has to do with this game, but not the play within this game, if that makes any sense. [/quote]

This is a bit of a contradiction. If someone gave me headaches in a previous game and mentioned the game number, then it'd certainly jog my memory. TSQ hinted that going hammer and tongs for Mirth was pro-town and it seems the most likely idea behind that would be to get some sort of useful reaction out of Mirth. Well, we've got one (reaction, "useful", who knows?), and TSQ's response to that seems a bit sus. Do you still want Mirth dead? How about something to go on?

Also, TSQ hasn't touched on the topic of Nahraza at all. Why not throw in your opinion, TSQ?

[mercdaemon]

TSQ- I don't care what your reasons are for voting Mirth, it's not a vote based on meta, a pressure vote, reaction vote, or anything. All it is doing is distracting the town somewhat, and keeping you from actually playing the game mostly (I believe you only posted like 2 questions in one post to stimulate discussion)

So TSQ contradicts himself and you're willing to pass it off as banter?

[mercdaemon]

All it is doing is distracting the town somewhat, and keeping you from actually playing the game mostly (I believe you only posted like 2 questions in one post to stimulate discussion)

So TSQ contradicts himself and you're willing to pass it off as banter?

Where do you get the impression that Batto is willing to pass it off as anything?

I've retained the bit above that I was specifically referring to. Battousai is suggesting that TSQ is mostly just keeping himself from actually playing the game.

If TSQ is pointing the finger at you just to get a response, that's fine. But when it goes further than that and TSQ posts contradictory statements, that's a bit less than fine to me, because it starts to suggest something else.

And just a bit more on what Battousai wrote, why would someone who isn't scum want to "distract the town"?

[mercdaemon]

Except we don't know if he *is* distracting the town. He can answer what he's doing for himself when he responds.

You're right, but I'm more responding to what Batt said than commenting on TSQ's posts (which I've already done).

[mercdaemon]

Merc: Why would someone who isn't scum want to distract the town? Most of the time, distracting the town is unintentional. If he's town then I just pointed it out to get him to stop.

I can't really see how telling us to lynch someone without having any apparent reason can be unintentionally distracting the town.

Nor can I. Nor can I really see why Battousai is defending TSQ. Malex and I brought up some stuff, I think it's up to TSQ to explain what he's doing rather than anyone else.

[mercdaemon]

Merc: I wasn't defending TSQ on purpose, I just answered your question. You asked why a townie would want to distract town and I told you why A TOWNIE would distract town, not protown TSQ or scum TSQ.

That's fine. At first it was looking like you were trying to explain away his actions on his behalf and that was a bit sus to me. I'd most definitely like to see what TSQ has to say on the subject as well though.

[mercdaemon]

That would be nice, yes. I have a feeling that everyone is waiting on TSQ though...

I'm thinking of putting in the L-2 vote myself, but as Mirth currectly surmised I'm waiting to see what TSQ has to say. It doesn't matter if TSQ is "helpful" or "playing the game" (as defined by the rest of us), if he's Town, that's really all that matters.

Battousai seems to think that the stuff brought up by Malex and myself regarding TSQ is (at least potentially) a nulltell, and Mirth was throwing all the tough questions at me when I tried to pick Batt up on it. That's fine. If it's a nulltell then TSQ should definitely explain himself before enough people vote for him.

[mercdaemon]

Because as unhelpful and for all intents and purposes useless TSQ is being right now, lurky =/= scum, so there's no actual reason to wagon him but pressure to make him talk.

Isn't it a bit much to try and classify TSQ's posting as merely "lurky"? We've pretty much all been asking for some input from him for quite a while now, and he has posted since then, just without any semblance of substance.

His strategy is starting to look more and more fishy, but for the life of me I can't work out why he'd be playing like this.

[mercdaemon]

I say lurky because he's posting in GD at least. Why do you think it's a bit much to try and classify him as lurky? What kind of connotations does the word have for you?

I'll admit, after I posted I jumped on the wiki and had a look at the definition of lurking there, and it seems that TSQ conforms to that at least. Lurking for me would have been not posting in this at all. To me, whether he posts in GD or not (had to look that one up ) doesn't mean a great deal, given that he's basically dropped in here to ignore the discussion completely.

Anyway, it seems that it may be the best we get out of TSQ at this stage. I agree with Batt that TSQ being town, alive and lurking is better than TSQ being dead and town. However, his actions don't really make sense for him being either town or scum.

unvote

since it was just the random I made at the start and it doesn't really have a purpose. (As it turned out, it never did )[/b]

[mercdaemon]

If you had to pick someone to lynch now, who would you pick and why. (If your first choice is TSQ please give a second choice also, because I'm really very not fond of lurker lynches)

TSQ would have been first. Second I'd lean towards Gremwell. Batto is also on the radar, but a lynch on TSQ would give me a better idea on that.

[mercdaemon]

TSQ really is weird. Lurking like that.. It's hard to say why he does that, but he have his own reasons, I think. But I wouldn't lynch him for that, only hope that he would come and say something.

Okay then, who would you lynch?

I'm assuming you mean that if Status isn't scum then there's a higher chance that Battousai is?

That remains to be seen. At this stage if TSQ is "off-limits" because of the whole "lurking != scum" thing then we're not really close to a lynch at all.

[mercdaemon]

Merc: You still haven't answered my question from post 203.

That's because 203 was posted at 4am my local time. That's when all good townies are asleep

I didn't say you were more likely to be scum based on the result of a possible lynch on TSQ. I was saying that my opinion of you would change based on what TSQ turned out to be if lynched. That may shift towards town or scum. But, hey, pardon me for stating the obvious.

[mercdaemon]

You're going to have to correct me if I'm wrong here.

And while I guess I am currently a prime suspect no doubt that would draw some scum to set themselves up on this last question for a quick D2, obviously not everyone FOSing me can be scum being only 2 in the game but I think a good look at Malex wouldn't hurt

He seemed eager to "Me too" his way on the wagon, and his other choice Nazahar seems like an easy target too. but I'd put dollars to donuts that its one of you three.

I think whoever is scum in this game is playing well and has yet to out themselves to I'm going to have to reread and see if something doesn't grab me

So on one hand you're saying that you'd bet on one or more of TSQ, Nahraza and Malex being scum (I think that's who you refer to in the "dollars to donuts" bit, as you aren't explicit on the 3rd person, but going on context the unnamed player seems to be TSQ) and on the other hand you're saying that whoever is scum is playing well and you're looking for something to grab you?

I don't like where you're heading here. Battousai picked you up on something earlier, maybe that was just a poor choice of phrase or impatience on your part, but this sounds a lot more suspicious.

[mercdaemon]

Merc:

What makes you think that in one comment and no night action that TSQ found something? Post 41 is really reaching for a way to answer that question. Why worry about a second vote on someone? Post 76 repeat of what everyone else said. the whole FOS/IGMEOY is that a threat. I mean come on. Post 84 seems to want to just skip over nahraza uselessness to bring back TSQ in the picture. Post 101 how was TSQ contradictory? Post 194 how would a TSQ lynch tell you anything about Grem and Batto when they both think TSQ is the top list?

TSQ said in post 18 that his vote was not random. I wanted to know what his reasoning was. 76 was me posting without reading the previous 3 or 4 posts, which I should have at least done before hitting submit. After that Mirth actually asked me if I had anything to say which wasn't repeating stuff that other people hadn't said. I read the thread again, and it turned out I did.

Mirth and Malex had already picked apart Nahraza's posts, and anything I said on that topic would have just been going over things they did. I already did and Mirth had called me on it. So I had a look at something I could contribute to the game and found that TSQ seemed to be changing his story. If you want it in B&W, check out post 87 by Malex.

Isn't Scum pointing at each other early game considered to be a fairly standard tactic? I was specifically referring to Batto in 194. My gut feeling at the time was that Batto seemed to be more active when we started talking about TSQ. Since you're replacing, I think a lot of that is going out the window.

Batto: Np, I thought I'd listed my location but obviously I hadn't.

[mercdaemon]

Merc: Distancing is as common a scum tell as, defending, attacking accusers, WIFOM.... the last part is what you started to do, but since you didn't go into much detail I personally see it as ok. Also, this is just my personal preference, but could you add an avatar to your profile? I usually don't pay attention to names, but instead to avatars (in which I've memorized avy to name). You don't have to but it would be nice.

Avatar uploaded, I had to find it first (wasn't even sure I had an offline copy to upload). Now you get to pester Mirth about it :p

And now for something completly different:

Which scum tell are you saying I'm exhibiting? WIFOM? Where? It may seem like a stupid question, but this is a newbie game and either I'm reading the wiki on WIFOM incorrectly or maybe I'm bad at saying what's on my mind and it's coming out wrong.

It's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you...

[mercdaemon]

Thanks for that Batt, clears things up.

[mercdaemon]

Isn't Scum pointing at each other early game considered to be a fairly standard tactic? I was specifically referring to Batto in 194. My gut feeling at the time was that Batto seemed to be more active when we started talking about TSQ. Since you're replacing, I think a lot of that is going out the window.

Not necessarily. Depends on the scum. Some will ignore each other, some will bus to distance, some will be friendly with each other. Depends on playstyle and how well they can fake being town. Depends on what metas they do or do not believe in. RVS is RVS. No necessary pattern in it.

Avatar uploaded, I had to find it first (wasn't even sure I had an offline copy to upload). Now you get to pester Mirth about it :p

I don't do avatars. I had one for half of 541, but that was never meant to last.

When I said "standard tactic" I didn't mean in every game, but scum pointing to each other certainly isn't anything new and OMG ground breaking.

Re: Avatars, my comment there was tongue firmly in cheek. I guess your lack of avatar there must count as something for Battousai, as he called me on it and not you.

[mercdaemon]

(Sorry for the absence, exam in 24 hours, be back after that.)

[mercdaemon]

TSQ/Farside: Was inactive for most of the game, when came on only posted "Mirth is scum." Then when prodded posts Hi and leaves. Farside comes and participates. Hasn't done anything suspicious yet. 50

Somehow, I'm not sure I think

both

Farside and Gremwell would be scum. The way the play has gone, I'm fairly sure in by belief that one of them is, but I'd have doubts on two.

No read on Nahraza? Mirth said Nahraza made her head hurt, but Nahr's consistent refusal to even give an opinion on who might be scum is getting to be a but sus to me.

[mercdaemon]

For me, it's Grem, Mega or farside22. I doubt I'd be able to bully people into the last one at this late hour, so I guess it'd be Grem or Mega and see what happens "tomorrow" (as in Day 2).

Like zeal, I'm also starting to lean towards Mega. The reasoning for voting Mirth at this late stage is flimsier than the tape holding the PSU to the case in my avatar

[mercdaemon]

For me, it's Grem, Mega or farside22. I doubt I'd be able to bully people into the last one at this late hour, so I guess it'd be Grem or Mega and see what happens "tomorrow" (as in Day 2).

Like zeal, I'm also starting to lean towards Mega. The reasoning for voting Mirth at this late stage is flimsier than the tape holding the PSU to the case in my avatar

Why are you still suspicious of farside? Why do you think farside might be the best lynch?

What is nagging me about farside22 is that he was quick to pick up on contradictions from other people, but when asked about what he felt about TSQ's play he doesn't refer to TSQ's contradictions at all. Granted, it's not up to us to ask farside22 to read TSQ's mind, but that doesn't mean it doesn't nag at me in the back of my head.

I don't think farside22 would be the

best

lynch, he's just on the list of people I would lynch at this stage. It'd take some major fast-talking for me to vote someone not on that list today.

[mercdaemon]

Mirth: Because you asked.

(Oops, sorry, farside22!)

[mercdaemon]

mercdaemon wrote:

I don't think farside22 would be the best lynch, he's just on the list of people I would lynch at this stage.



Who else is on your list, and why?

Gremwell and Megamieuwsel.

Mega's vote on Mirth doesn't make any sense to me. With a looming deadline it really does stand out to vote for Mirth when nobody else has been doing so.

Gremwell seemed to be looking for people just jumping on the Bandwagon earlier. His logic is also full of holes.

[mercdaemon]

I don't think there's much harm in voting straight off the bat. It's a bit like RVS on day 1 - cases will need to be made before you're going to get significant votage going one way or the other.

Why are you asking Malex and myself specifically, Mirth? Are you looking to gather support for a quick lynch on Batt, do not pass day 2, do not collect 200 posts? Frankly I'm a bit surprised that you weren't killed in the night yourself.

[mercdaemon]

Congratulations, I've found scum? Awesome!

Vote: Mirth

[mercdaemon]

Nice OMGUS vote there.

Thanks.

And now for something completely different.

Let's see what we have here. Day 2 arrives and Mirth votes. Apparently that's to catch me or Malex out on.... something.

I'll stand by what I wrote, for better or worse. Mirth, you appeared to be the most honest scumhunter in day 1. To me, that makes you a target for Mafia in the night. You didn't die? That means something to my opinion of the game. If it makes me scummy to say it then so be it.

With regards to what I wrote about voting off the bat, I still stand by that. You've got a habit of "I'll do this and explain later". Personally, I don't have a problem with that. And that's what I said. You voted Batt. Fine. It's not like that's his death sentence. I didn't think Batt was scum at the time, and I still don't. To me, the vote said something about you.

Maybe you could/should be looking at the play in the last day, but claiming that you've somehow trapped me into revealing myself as scum is ludicrous. To me, it looks like you're reaching for other people to pin things on.

[mercdaemon]

Killing off the ICs could also be a strategy in use here. I just noticed I spelled throw incorrectly in my last post. I feel bad now.

Which of course begs the obvious question of why you and me are both still alive.

Because there's only been one night? In D1 there were more conspicuous topics of conversation.

[mercdaemon]

Fair enough. I'd like to hear what Merc and Malex think of my claim.

I haven't really made up my mind on the truth of your claim. If it's true, then I've got nothing to worry about. If it's false then you're scum. It could go either way. At this moment, I'm reading what other people have had to say about it to give me a better idea. You've thrown all your cards on the table, some face up, some face down.

The issue I have with the claim is that if it's correct, you've basically zeroed out the usefulness for the doc. I can't see anything to say that a roleblocker would know that they've hit a power role. If you're telling the truth, you've basically told them.

[mercdaemon]

Except that there is no chance of that and you gain scum points for even suggesting it. If I am scum, then there is no doctor, thus there is also no roleblocker, thus you could not have been roleblocked. And you should know that.

If you are scum, you could be partnered with a roleblocker and would know that you are. I haven't seen anything in the play that would remove that possibility.

The "strategy" of "killing off ICs" was suggested by Batt back in post 410. If we're to go with your version of events do you believe that scum-Batt would have brought this up?

[mercdaemon]

Actually Merc, I believe Mirth was the first one to bring up killing the ICs as what the scum are doing (I was focused on why Farside was picked over other people, revenge, setup, etc.), and I went on to say that is a possibility.

I stand corrected.

[mercdaemon]

In all honesty, I was only going to FOS Malex, then I noticed Grem didn't vote since then either. Must have missed Merc as well.

FOS: Merc

I find it amusing that you FOS me only after Mirth tells you to do so. Can you give the court your reasoning why you think I'm suspicious? I've already stated my opinion that Mirth's reasoning behind thinking I'm scum is flimsy approaching non-existent, but all she wants to do is keep going with the "I think Merc is scum line". Got anything else yourself?

and while I was doing the same thing Malex and merc have a tendency to disappear from time to time, surfacing once and a while. I don't think that merc is scummy enough to lynch right now...

If you notice my location, you'll find that I'm on the other side of the world. That means that I tend to be asleep when there are lots of posts. While my job also requires me to be in front of a computer with general internet access, I do like to get out some as well

[mercdaemon]

EBWOP: should read: the "Merc is scum" line.

[mercdaemon]

Batto, then why not frame you with Grem?

Why I think Merc is scummy:
post 2 he says that maybe TSQ picked up on something with me. Game barely started. Nothing to pick up on. This rings false. (as does the thinking I'm dangerous part)
6: starting the TSQ attack
11: sounds like trying to sit on both sides of the fence in regards to TSQ
12: suggests TSQ has a strategy
14, 16: tries to connect Batto to TSQ (this connection doesn't really exist as I was defending him a lot more)
18: afraid id call him on parroting again
23: continues to think Farside is scum without any real reason
28: suggests i'm scum in a very subtle manner. (the subtlety here is what bothers me, because it appears to leave room for backtracking.)

Mirth, I have no idea what your post numbers refer to (unless you're referring to the number of the post I made specifically), but I'm still happy to address each point. It's nice to see something other than "Look people, merc is scum!"

w.r.t. TSQ's play, at the start of the game TSQ said his vote for you was non-random. I wanted to know what basis he had for that. Later on, I found that he was basically contradicting himself. Why wouldn't I want to pick him up on that?

The reason I hounded Battousai over TSQ was that at the time, I felt like his dismissal of TSQ's play as a nulltell bothered me. It sounded like he was giving TSQ an easy out to come back and say "Yeah, sorry, was just talking crap". However, Batto did come back and explain himself, and I see that now.

I'm not afraid you'll call me out for parroting. What I do realise is that just saying stuff which had been said before (as I did back on page 3 or 4 when I posted without reading the last 2 posts before me) is fairly pointless.

I brought up farside22 at the end because TSQ's play still bothered me, and did up until farside22 died. Obviously they are different people with the same role. If you want a reason why TSQ's play bothered me, then have a look at http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... _a_good_IC (If you don't see what I see here, I'll be happy to point it out, and I promise not to backtrack.)

Batt: I didn't want farside22 dead. Someone put the question out who people would vote to lynch and I answered the question honestly.

Okay, I was wrong on TSQ/farside. But so were the 5 people who voted for Megamiewsel.

RE: Being subtle, I don't see any difference in coming out with what I did or just throwing "Vote: Mirth". Maybe I should have voted in the same post, but what I did gave me some info on you.

[mercdaemon]

Mirth, what do the numbers next to your reasoning on Merc represent?

I

think

they're the numbers of my posts. As in #2 was the 2nd post of mine, etc.

[mercdaemon]

Mirth: That's a nice story, and I know you've all been saying lurking isn't scummy and etc. But are you also telling me that you've never seen a lurker turn out to be scum? What bothered me about TSQ's play was that he seemed to clam up when attention was drawn back to him. Maybe that's just coincidental with whatever kept him away from the game, but the one word post at the end (his last one) seemed to me like he was ignoring the town's questions directed at him, and that bothered me. If I ignored questions you directed at me, would that bother you?

[mercdaemon]

Malex: It seemed to me that Batto's use of FoS is more of a play style thing. The only thing that really matters to the game is a vote, whereas Batto (IMO) uses FoS almost like a summary. Not the way I (plan to) play the game, but I don't really have too much of a problem with it.

AK47x2: Boo!

[mercdaemon]

(P.S. That's a boo to hard drives not working. I have one on the way out myself )

[mercdaemon]

Because I'm more convinced about Merc. My case on Batto is mostly WIFOM and I realize this.

At this stage, with regards to my status as pro/anti-town, you're either misguided or scum.

If the former, then I'm sorry I gave you that impression. You've stated what you've got on me and I feel I've answered the bits you've brought up. It seems that most of what you have is that I kept going after TSQ/farside22 and he/she turned out to be the cop.

If your case on Batt is "mostly WIFOM", then do you have suspicions on other players at this stage?

Also, Batt asked you what you think about the recent interaction between Malex and himself.

as foe Batto's FoS'ing I guess I could see it as a tactic to draw attention away from himself, but I don't think thats the case here.

So what do you think is the case?

[mercdaemon]

Batto: I'm not really happy to lynch AK based on virtually nothing. Fingers crossed we get a replacement who would give us a better idea. Zeal I would have to look at a bit more closely tomorrow (just got home from a LAN, no sleep and lots of driving makes merc a tired boy). I agree there was quite a bit of "me too" in her play on D2 but I'd have to go back to D1 and see what I can turn up there.

[mercdaemon]

Hi Clock!

I see the possibility of Mirth's claim being true, but from a pro-town view I believe that it isn't useful at all. In fact it could very well be the opposite and that's why I'm starting to believe it to be false.

28: Why subtly say it? [See below after the influx of posts]

Sorry, what was I supposed to be looking at below? I agree that I should have just voted first and argued later, but at the time I was expecting to have some more discussion on the topic rather than Mirth going all-out for me.

[mercdaemon]

(Clock, I just lost the reply I was writing to answer your question twice, I'll wait until I'm at home later tonight before writing it out again. Stupid work computers )

[mercdaemon]

Merc, what reasoning do you have to believe Mirth's claim and what reasons do you have against Mirth's claim?

My first instinct was to believe the claim. Mirth was the most active scumhunter on D1, and while she has played fairly aggressively, she has appeared to be pretty much straight up (on that day anyway). Her being the doc is in line with that.

My arguments against the claim are that it is hardly pro-town and the timing appears to be way off. Mirth was probably the person least likely to be lynched judging by D1 and was in little to no danger of being lynched today. Okay, I've got a vote on her, but for the majority of the day she and I have been in some (seemingly) private war over which of us (if any) are scum. So we've gone from nobody voting for Mirth ...to nobody voting for Mirth and having the usefulness of the doc (if the claim is true) zeroed out. In short, I don't see how the claim has helped the town at all.

To answer Batt's question, if the deadline was rolling around I would be voting Gremwell or Mirth.

Gremwell, I feel has had his moments in D1 where he was quite close to being lynched. Day 2 I don't feel like he's played a lot differently, but there have been other plays that have overshadowed his.

Mirth has come out on D2 with what was ostensibly a "trap" for Malex and/or myself, which apparently I walked into. Okay, if Mirth really wanted to play "follow the cop" and had that game wrecked by the scum hitting farside22, then I can see non-zero value in trying for force a slip from someone. But if it was an honest trap for real scum, why on earth would Mirth have to wait something like 100 posts before actually putting a case forward? Instead all we got for the longest time was "Merc is scum".

Who would you vote for in the scenario you are talking about, Batt?

[mercdaemon]

What has Grem done that was scummy D2? I haven't seen him really do anything all too suspicious today.

Grem's last post is a case in point. He seems fixed on this whole concept of "active lurking", after yourself and Mirth basically had to nail it into me that lurking isn't necessarily scummy. Then when Clock pins the same tag on Grem, his defensiveness seems out of proportion.

zeal

I can see scenarios where zeal is town, and I can also see scenarios where zeal is scum. zeal's plays have been mostly of the "me too" variety. When Mirth pointed the finger and I posted my (meaningful) reply, zeal said Mirth was overreacting. Then zeal was fairly quick to say that she believed Mirth's claim. At first it seemed that these two opinions are pretty much mutually exclusive, not if zeal is town.

Battousai

The plays between Batt and Mirth after the roleclaim at first led me to believe that it was as case of "either Batt or Mirth is scum". In my mind, Batt has been fairly straight up the line, that's probably the major difference between him and Mirth to date. Oh yes, and he hasn't claimed to be anything.

ClockworkRuse

Clock is obviously still pretty new and he's pretty much kicked off in the same way as farside22.

Malex McJokeus

I don't know whether he's "actively lurking" or not, but right now it looks like he's AWOL. It seems he's probably been the biggest "Mirth follower" in the game so far, especially in D1. His last comments, about Batt "FoSing the town", strike me as being pretty defensive, bordering on "too defensive". It's just a FoS, it has no bearing on the game state.

Merc- I see Mirth's point now, and I guess I find Merc being scummy for pushing Mirth for being scummy and at the same time not taking a definative stance

Yes, I've already admitted that I should have voted first and then stated what I thought. However, I have since corrected my mistake and my case is fairly clear, yes?

[mercdaemon]

Yes, but who are your top 3 suspects?

I only have a top two list. That is Mirth and yourself. Mirth asked me what I felt about the other players, that's what I was talking about in my previous post.

merc I was on the fence for a while and this last post kind of does it for me, he seems to have gotten a little braver since the replacement has started. To me his above post says nothing, and of course now you can look back and say, I should have done this, but that doesn't change how you reacted at the time, thats why its called a slip.

Welcome aboard the bandwagon (which shall be known as the Mirth-train from here on in). Keep your arms and legs inside until this ride has come to a full and complete stop.

As to me being braver, would you prefer it if you said "ah well, you got me"? I could say it, but I can't change what I'm going to flip if/when I die. Sorry 'bout that. It's my job not to get lynched, I'm not going to roll over and take it just because somebody is trying to frame me.

[mercdaemon]

Noooooo you don't seem to get it. It doesn't matter if they think I'm the doctor to roleblock me, only that I'm town enough to be a threat. Which is what happened last night. I'm rendered useless by either a roleblock or a kill. They, if they didn't know who the doctor was, would simply target the two most protown players in the night. Since I was blocked once I know what they think me pro-town enough to target. Therefore if they didn't think I was the doctor and targeted someone else to kill (like they did last night), they would still roleblock me just in case I was to be on the safeside. This is what would render me useless.

In this context I can actually see some logic behind your claim, though I still disagree with the timing and value.

[mercdaemon]

Good to see you back! zeal's sig also seems to indicate she'll be back soon as well.

I'm going to

unvote

, because no matter now scummy I think Mirth is (which has diminished a bit I might add), with the claim I don't think there's any great chance of her being the lynch today.

[mercdaemon]

IIRC, Mega was barely given anytime to explain her vote and this says to me that Merc voted Mega with little reasoning other then 'Mirth is in danger!' And if that isn't his reasoning, it's a very opportunistic vote all the same.

I never voted for Mega.

[mercdaemon]

Re-read of Merc, as I feel it is necessary.

Mega's vote on Mirth doesn't make any sense to me. With a looming deadline it really does stand out to vote for Mirth when nobody else has been doing so.

IIRC, Mega was barely given anytime to explain her vote and this says to me that Merc voted Mega with little reasoning other then 'Mirth is in danger!' And if that isn't his reasoning, it's a very opportunistic vote all the same.

Is that because you feel it is necessary or because other players told you it was necessary?

Aside from the fact that you are incorrect here as I didn't vote for Mega, how do you figure that I would base my opinion on "Mirth is in danger"? Mirth

wasn't

in any danger, and that's what I was pointing out - Mega's play seemed extremely clumsy. Your comment here seems to imply that you are trying to insert the idea of Mirth and myself as a scum pair.

haven't really made up my mind on the truth of your claim. If it's true, then I've got nothing to worry about. If it's false then you're scum. It could go either way. At this moment, I'm reading what other people have had to say about it to give me a better idea. You've thrown all your cards on the table, some face up, some face down.

This says to me, I don't know what to think about your post and I'm waiting to be told what to think Definately something I don't like.

Why should I be obliged to immediately form an impression on a play as important as someone claiming a role? At that stage, with Mirth voting for me and vice versa. You also neglect to comment on the latter part of the post from which you have extracted the above quote. You know, the bit where I actually put forward an opinion on the claim.

Snip my post

I feel like this is really bad reasoning. 'There was the chance that TSQ was scum, so I am going to vote him and hope for the best!' Once again, I feel that this kind of bad logic played a part in Mega's lynch. And I just don't like it. If Merc was scum, it'd be way to easy for him to say 'Well, TSQ is obv. lurker! SCUM!'

Er, once again, I didn't vote for TSQ. If you would like to read a more legitimate (which here means "not full of bad logic") argument as to why my harassment of TSQ is scummy, see Mirth's post-by-post on the same subject. Also see what I had to say about it, and for that matter, what you had to say about it.

Snip two of my posts

Contradictory posts.

Battousai has already answered this one.

Clock, it seems that your levels of honesty and logic when you defend me are far higher than those when you actually try to build a case against me. Why is this, do you know I'm town?

Sigh. I'm getting sick of asking for deadline extensions in all my games, so someone else can beg just this once.

I am not going to vote just yet. Nor am I going to ask the mod for a deadline extension. I am interested in seeing what Clock has to say so I hesitate to put him at L-1, but if there's no other persuasive argument I

will

vote for Clock before the deadline is up.

[mercdaemon]

I think it is contradictory but not in the sense of 'This is scum based on these two posts!' level. It's more that at first he didn't care where you placed your FoS, but once it lands on him he tries to shrug it off and call you on appeasement. It's contradictory in the sense that while he says it's your play style, as soon as it turns to him he doesn't necessarily panic, but tries to turn the town on you.

But that appeasement actually is a pretty good catch. Unvote.

No. You are quoting the posts out of order, which has already been pointed out.

First

I ask why he only FoSed me when Mirth asked him about it.

Then

when Malex asks about Battousai's FoSing I say that I think he uses it as a summary. By this I mean that it's like a substitute for "I find (insert name here) scummy".

Who/why are you unvoting? According to the mod's last count, you haven't voted for anyone, and I can't see you placing votes anywhere.

[mercdaemon]

Vote: ClockworkRuse

[mercdaemon]

Malex: Killing Mirth to silence her (as the most aggressive scumhunter) is probable here, but I'm not necessarily sure that it would follow from 631 that it's zeal.

Batt: Clock couldn't have thrown me under a tricycle with his reasoning as to how I could possibly be scum. He was groping for scraps when asked to actually find something on me because he knew my alleigance Also, IIRC Grem said he was going away for a few days which is why he voted early and didn't revote. Not sure if he said when he was going to be back.

I'm thinking it's one of Gremwell and zeal. Gremwell has failed to express his own opinions almost as much as zeal has. It looks like he thought I was going to be the lynch on D2 so he hopped on that "wagon" after ignoring the play between Mirth and myself for the entire day.

[mercdaemon]

This is entirely speculation, to say what I "thought" or "ignored" is mighty presumptuous of you. Apparently you think there is some ironclad proof in the play between you and mirth that clears you, which is far from the case. Simply put I was not convinced. I had to cast my vote days before the deadline on whomever I felt best about lynching at the time of my vote. How can it be a "wagon" if there was no one voting?

Wrong. My point regarding Mirth is that Mirth was at me for most of day 2. and all players were given ample time to actually weigh in on the argument. Let's look at the various player reactions.

Battousai

Merc: Like I said before, the reason I didn't was because I was more concerned with Malex at the time. Then I noticed Grem hasn't talked so I added him. Then Mirth pointed out you have done the same so I gave you a FOS as well for the same reason as Malex and Grem.

Snip a bit

fter reading the last pages of D1, I've come up with two contradictory conclusions on why Farside was killed that I feel somewhat confident in:

1) To frame Merc. Merc was really after Farside near the end of D1, and I find it to be a common theme among newbie scum to kill on that angle of Merc WANTING Farside dead.

2) Merc called for Farsides lynch, KNOWING no one would support him. Then he killed Farside in the kitchen with the rope, thinking he could play it off as a setup

Merc- I see Mirth's point now, and I guess I find Merc being scummy for pushing Mirth for being scummy and at the same time not taking a definative stance

I was all willing to lynch Merc if my vote would mean lynch Merc or lynch no one as he is in my top 3.

Also see the bit where he throws the FoS for disappearing. So, yes, Batt says that he sees Mirth's point, and

would

vote for me. However, he has also managed to contribute something to the discussion on whether I'm scum.

zeal

I think Mirth is overreacting towards Merc.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

kristopf/ClockworkRuse

Batto, then why not frame you with Grem?

Why I think Merc is scummy:
post 2 he says that maybe TSQ picked up on something with me. Game barely started. Nothing to pick up on. This rings false. (as does the thinking I'm dangerous part)
6: starting the TSQ attack
11: sounds like trying to sit on both sides of the fence in regards to TSQ
12: suggests TSQ has a strategy
14, 16: tries to connect Batto to TSQ (this connection doesn't really exist as I was defending him a lot more)
18: afraid id call him on parroting again
23: continues to think Farside is scum without any real reason
28: suggests i'm scum in a very subtle manner. (the subtlety here is what bothers me, because it appears to leave room for backtracking.)

2: Easily a Townie mistake. Could be pushing for TSQ to explain his reasoning.
6: TSQ attack was reasonable. No one knew that Status was the cop and the lurking plus more horrible play is reason enough for that wagon.
11: People can often change their minds about a case, I'm sure I could point out instances where you have.
12: Flawed play, I agree.
14,16: See above.
18: Being called on parroting is a scum-tell, for me this reason if fifty-fifty. He could be avoiding that to form his own opinions or he could be scum moving away from your flock.
23: Easy newbie move, that said learn from your mistakes Merc. Null tell for me.
28: Why subtly say it? [See below after the influx of posts]

Now skip down to where Clock actually tries to build a cast

against

me. He knows I'm town which means he's playing off scraps trying to do this. And oh, look, he turns out to be scum.

Malex McJokeus

I'm hard pressed to find Malex even mentioning my name in D2.

Gremwell

I'd like to hear more out of Malex and merc, I'd say it looks like active lurking but the whole thread is dragging right now.

merc I was on the fence for a while and this last post kind of does it for me, he seems to have gotten a little braver since the replacement has started. To me his above post says nothing, and of course now you can look back and say, I should have done this, but that doesn't change how you reacted at the time, thats why its called a slip.

Okay, you have thrown in the bit about "active lurking". I hear that one's a nulltell (and I believe it now after basically having other players beat it into me).

hopefully with malex back and zeal returning soon you won't even need my vote to make 4 for the deadline but in case you do, this is where I currently feel the most comfortable.

However, other than this you've been more interested in Battousai in D2. When the deadline rolls around you seem prepared to vote for me, and it sounds as you expect me to be lynched. It might be presumptuous of me to suggest that you're getting on the bandwagon, but given your play, I don't see how a different conclusion could be drawn.

like you said scum do like to watch townies go after each other

Could it be then, that the scum were quite enjoying Mirth and myself pointing at each other?

zeal: I wrote this post yesterday, but I was trying to hunt down a particular quote in the game to stick in.

Not yet having the experience to formulate probable oppinions on who is scum is not much of a tell.

I don't think it's about "formulating" opinions. We're mostly newbies here, and playing a game with perfect memory of what's said is new to me too.

See my point above about Gremwell. It's not that he voted for me, but the fact that he voted for me without really saying anything in the preceding weeks related to Mirth's argument about whether I was scum or not bothers me.

[mercdaemon]

Zeal also brought this up in her post right after this one. I am not fully understanding how that statement can't be used all the time on anything anyone does. If a townie would say something, then a scum may say something too? I guess that is reasonable to say. I just see that as a blanket statement anyone could make at anytime if they see something they feel like reading into.

I think the point here is that the "I have acted in this way, therefore I am town" doesn't really work. You're right, the argument could be applied to anything, but here it is specifically referring to your earlier comment that the way you have acted means that you are town.

[mercdaemon]

Malex: Yes, you are defending yourself, but the point here is the argument which you use. As Battousai pointed out, it's not bad to defend yourself.

Battousai: I can see where your vote came from, but I don't think I'm quite ready to vote that way (see below). However I can't say much for Malex's response either.

I don't like zeal's prediction on what might happen tonight and the ramifications thereof. I don't think that particular play was necessary all at this point in time, I don't like the phrasing and I don't like how it sets me up as scum based on what scum do tonight.

I'm going to do what I never thought I would and

FoS: zeal

. Please explain why you needed to say what you did in your last post.

[mercdaemon]

I don't like zeal's prediction on what might happen tonight and the ramifications thereof. I don't think that particular play was necessary all at this point in time, I don't like the phrasing and I don't like how it sets me up as scum based on what scum do tonight.

Ok, firstly, if it seems like it sets you up as scum based on what happens tonight, this was not my intention at all. I was merely trying to explain why I do not want to rush into voting Malex just yet.

"Merc is scum if he doesn't die tonight. Therefore I don't want to vote Malex just yet." Is that a fair summary of what you wrote? If you don't want to vote Malex because you aren't convinced he's scum (and that's all you want to say), then what does that have to do with me?

[mercdaemon]

Ok, no one has posted since Friday.... I was waiting on Zeal, but I feel we need to move on until zeal desides to post.

UNVOTE, Vote: Grem

, same reasons I voted you D1, plus you seem to be going inactive/lurking.

Does this mean your opinion of Malex has changed at all?

[mercdaemon]

If we don't hit scum today we still have one more chance tomorrow, but 1 scum 2 townies is a hard day and will usually make your head explode.

Was this statement in reference to someone else's post?

[mercdaemon]

I don't really have a scum list at the moment. In the past few posts I've seem bits and pieces that would tend to make sense if there were

two

scum, but there's only one so I'm in a sort of "digest" mode here.

Battousai: With regards to my earlier question for you, I assume the thing you were waiting for hasn't happened yet?

Gremwell/zeal: It's obviously one away from LyLo which is exactly the same as Day 2. Why is this such a problem?

Gremwell: If something scummier than you having to take a break from the game while the 'net got fixed happened recently, do you want to share that with us? (Sounds awkward, but I hope you understand what I'm asking here.)

zeal: I don't think people are going to auto-vote you if the game goes into another day. I understand where you're coming from which may make you hesitant to put down a vote, but that shouldn't stop you from throwing around your opinions on who's scum.

Malex: What do you think of Battousai's play today?

[mercdaemon]

As for your vote on me, you have nothing more than the straws you were grasping at D1 and that I went 3 days without a post in a game that has gone longer with no activity whatsoever? I apologize for not posting a notice but I only expected to be gone for the day but then the servers at school were down so I had to wait until today. You're telling me that nothing scummier has happened since then?

You seem to indicate here that you think there are scummier things going on than you having no 'net access for 3 days. What are these things?

[mercdaemon]

nothing specifically, I was just wondering how my not posting was worthy a vote

Gremwell, on D2 you were the one who was throwing around the "active lurking" idea. Sure, you were off the 'net for 3 days, but there was no way of knowing that at the time.

[mercdaemon]

So, I voted Grem for little reasoning.

If you voted Grem to fish for reactions, does this mean he is not actually top of your list? If he is, do you have anything further on him than "what happened on D1 + lurking"?

[mercdaemon]

Grem: There are some things that have piqued my interest that I'm going to need to chase down and reread bits of previous days before I can answer that question. There are things that seem to make sense to me if there are two scum in the game, but I don't really know what to make of them considering there's only one.

[mercdaemon]

Batt: ?!?!?! Power role? What, is zeal supposed to claim Mafia Roleblocker or something?

[mercdaemon]

(Sorry, hella weekend, back to normal now)

Battousai: Given that most of Mirth's play on D2 revolved around her being the doctor, a claim which came about because the cop died N1, it seems a bit odd that someone might try a false claim. Also, the vote on zeal wasn't L-1.

[mercdaemon]

zeal: Can you give us some insight as to why you think Batt is scum? Mirth had the impression he was, but according to her that was "mostly WIFOM". Anything I'd have on Batto would be the same at this point in time.

[mercdaemon]

Well done zeal! And good game everyone. Hope to play with you guys again, I had a great time in this game.

Thanks for running the game mith!