Newbie 647 - Over!!!

[SecretAgentOrange]

And it is a fine, fine, beautiful morning!

Looking forward to a game with all y'alls.

Vote: Katie

I know a girl named Katie, and she's a total snob. RAR KATIES.

[SecretAgentOrange]

Reactions to a second vote seem potentially a lot more interesting than another random 1-vote.

/in before "Alurin is scum for trying to start a bandwagon"

Maybe it's because I'm the target, but this seems scummy to me. There were two other people who had 1-votes on them who hadn't posted yet. If Alurin was looking for reactions to a second vote, they would have been better choices.

I'm not sure what to make of calling himself scum. I don't see why town would ever want to do that.

Well, it's still the random stage, so I'm not so sure I'd jump to any conclusions about things being scummy at this stage in the game. And I'm not so sure I agree with you there. A townie wanting to start discussion would put a 2nd vote on an active player, one who would be likely to respond. I kind of feel like putting a 2nd vote on an inactive player would be a much easier scum move. That is, if this weren't in the random phase. And since it is, I don't really think it means much.

I mean, you seem to be a little overly defensive here, but I think I'd prefer to chalk that up as in line with your initial reluctance to random vote in the beginning and not as a scumtell.

[SecretAgentOrange]

I mean, you seem to be a little overly defensive here, but I think I'd prefer to chalk that up as in line with your initial reluctance to random vote in the beginning and not as a scumtell.

Or you can chalk it up to my first forum game. There's no "Random Stage" on IRC.

Yep. That works too. I wasn't going to straight up assume it was your first forum game. Either way, not scummy IMO, on either count.

[SecretAgentOrange]

Yeah, start posting, folks!

Wow. It took me this long to realize that your avatar is Winslow. I'm so smart.

[SecretAgentOrange]

As something to get folks talking, I'd like to pose a question to everyone.

How new are you to mafia?

I think that there's something to be said for evaluating players based on how familiar they are with the game, and how aware they are about what actions are pro town and what actions are pro scum. I mean, there are some things that if an experienced player did them would be scummy, but that a newbie could honestly plead ignorant to. In order to really accurately gauge scumminess, I think we have to know who we're dealing with here. Do you guys agree?

Personally, this is my second game of mafia, both on this site and anywhere else. My first game I was NKed on night 1. So I don't have a ton of practical game experience. But, I have read through something like 10 games, both here and on Something Awful, and I've read through the wiki pretty thoroughly, so I'd say that I know the general way the game works pretty well.

[SecretAgentOrange]

Sorry for the lack of posting.

In the games I'd read, someone's either made a noob mistake or some kind of gambit by now, so I honestly have no idea how to continue a random phase vote.

Malyss, what options are you reconsidering?

[SecretAgentOrange]

I was totally going to go find a picture of my dog to stick up here, but got too lazy.

I'm going to have to agree with you there, Lord Gurgi.

Unvote Katie; Vote: OGML

IC's shouldn't be lurking, and with so little to go on at this point in the game, I don't think there's a better place I could put my vote right now.

Also, Malyss, I'm not so sure I really get you there. "Various voting options" seems to be a vague statement. Care to go into it in a little more depth? If only to spark more conversation.

[SecretAgentOrange]

Oh come on. I wouldn't really call this a bandwagon. You're at two votes, and there are two users who have already been at three. I'd be worried about a third person on you, but two isn't really that big of a deal at any point in time, especially on page 2. Is it? I could be making wrong assumptions as a relative newbie here. At this point there's nothing much to say other than "what he said", and a potentially lurking IC was the best I could have gone on. I have a feeling that Gurgi was grasping at basically nothing to go on in this thread but wanted to start discussion. I felt that it would be helpful to him and the town to vote, rather than to just sit by and go "Oh no, I don't know what to do. How do we start talking on day one?" I feel like since you're posting, my vote has served its purpose. Hopefully others will comment on this and we'll get discussion going.

Unvote

[SecretAgentOrange]

What, is it impossible to disagree with someone without thinking they're scum now? I said that two votes wasn't as serious as you were making it out to be, and clarified my reasons for voting you. And like I said before I did so, the reason that I took my vote off you was because my main reason for voting you in the first place was to both get you posting, and to start discussion. As both have happened, I saw no more reason for keeping my vote there.

To further explain, there was no real valid strong reason to suspect ANYONE in this thread as scum. Discussion helps the town. Moving out of the random phase helps the town. I want to do both of those things. Lord Gurgi had a vote on Vir, who had three votes on him. He then urged the town to be more active, and put a third vote on Katie, "just because". It was incredibly obvious to me that he was trying to get people to start posting by doing something that could be called into question as scummy. No one took the bait. He called you out on a minor offense. I felt that if no one had the balls to make a move that might appear scummy for the sake of sparking discussion, discussion would never happen. I put my vote there. As scummy as that may look, how could it possibly be an anti-town move? Any quicklynch that would result from having my vote there on such little evidence would CERTAINLY call me into question on the next day. I'm astounded that you'd think I'd be that stupid as scum.

But I notice that you've never once either attempted to defend yourself as to your lurking behavior, or respond to any of the points that I have made in my defense. You prefer to just attack me. That I think is a serious enough reason to put my vote back on you.

Vote: OhGodMyLife

[SecretAgentOrange]

Just posting to say that I've got a really busy weekend coming up, so I'll try as hard as I can to post actively, but I might not be able to post until Sunday. My apologies!

[SecretAgentOrange]

This is ridiculous. Of course he was lurking. Or at least, there was no way for me to assume anything but that he was lurking. He hadn't posted since Sunday. It was Wednesday. The mod was threatening to prod everyone. My general experience (which I can't specifically reference since it was exclusively in a game that is still going on) was in a much slower-paced game, I felt bad about my unintended lurking, and immediately posted. In this thread, not posting for a few days had been deemed inappropriate. Then, an IC points that one of the lurkers was an IC,

which to me had been supported by the mod's post

. My general experience (which I again can't specifically reference) also says that lurking IC's utterly destroys newbie games. Pardon me for listening to the mods and the IC's and doing what, at the time, I though was the best move to get this goddamned town talking. If I might have been overeager here, it's entirely because I'm sensitive on the topic. I hate inactivity. I felt horrible at the time about having to be threatened into posting. I feel that IC's shouldn't lurk. I did what I thought was necessary to make sure that wasn't happening. And it was page 2. There was literally nothing else to go on. Isn't that what you do at the beginning of the game? You vote for the first person you think is even mildly scummy just to get discussion going. Then, once there's actual discussion going on, you get to start actually looking for real scum.

The first post you have from me which you are calling a contradiction is taken entirely out of context, but I guess my wording there might have been unclear. I guess that might be my fault.

What I meant was that, if you're just randomly putting some player at a higher number of votes to start discussion, it's better to do it on an active player who is more likely to respond to you. Doing otherwise would be easier, and draw less flack, since the person wouldn't respond. I called it a "scum move" because he was accusing you of being scum, not because I thought that anyone who voted for a lurker was scummy. But since it was the random phase, neither is a big deal. I can understand how that might have been misconstrued as saying that it's always scummy to put a second vote on a lurker. That I don't agree with. Do you? Would any rational person?

Anyway, sorry if this post is garbled and unclear in any way. About to leave for work and don't have time to proofread, and I don't want to leave you guys waiting on me should I be unable to post for a day or two. I'll clarify when I get back should it be necessary.

[SecretAgentOrange]

OK, in retrospect, my last post looks a little overdramatic.

I woke up from my pre-night-shift nap, checked mafia, and was entirely taken aback by Gurgi's post. Felt I needed to reply before I went away for the weekend, typed up a hasty response, and went to work. Now that I've had five hours of moving boxes and a good hour of driving to think about it when I'm not all sleepified and flabbergasted, everything makes a lot more sense to me.

I was originally pissed off because OGML was not defending himself, ignoring my points, and just attacking me. Now, knowing that that's not a reasonable time to be considered "lurking" (which in retrospect should have been obvious to me) I can understand how I just looked to him like a stupid scummy noob that was beneath a serious response. I'll

Unvote OGML

and downgrade it to an FOS. While my original vote may have looked scummy and been a little ignorant, I support that the reasons that I gave in my defense in that post and others have been reasonable. I think it's mildly scummy that you would totally ignore all of that and not tell me that that wasn't a reasonable amount of time to consider lurking. It could be construed as trying to make a noob out into scum.

I maintain that, while I may have some idea of how mafia works, I have little to no idea how I can reasonably expect the timeframe to work. If a mod is saying people need to post more and an IC tells me someone is lurking, I'm likely to believe them.

Right now, I feel like you've all decided that I look scummy, and anything I say will just look like "Oh, well that's just what scum would say!" It's the very beginning of the game. I'd urge you to take a good close look at what's going on before voting me. At least, please don't lynch me this early in the game. If you lynch me now, you go into day 2 with next to no information or discussion with which to base your later votes. There are plenty of people still not posting.

To everyone: If you think I'm scummy, respond to the defenses I have provided. Do you believe these specific points or don't you? Just saying something like "haha your post looks scummy!" or "you're being defensive!" seems like hopping on a bandwagon to me. I've taken a step back from the situation to reevaluate it, and it's certainly helped my sense of perspective. Perhaps it will do the same for you. And if you still think I'm scum, I'd request that you not lynch me until we've had enough time to discuss multiple options, so that the town has enough information going into day 2 to make an intelligent lynch choice.

Now I'm going to sleep.

[SecretAgentOrange]

OK, I'd like to apologize again for the temporary leave of absence there. Crazy weekend. Checkin' in so's you all know I'm here and going to do a reread right now. Expect another post within the hour.

[SecretAgentOrange]

OK, first, I'm just going to say that I'm going to stop defending myself now and move on to scumhunting. If you have any unanswered questions for me, feel free to ask, and I'll do my best to answer.

1) LordGurgi, or Alurin? Both players as of now are both looking pretty pro-town to me as both are very involved in starting discussion. I'm going to say that at the moment, Gurgi looks more pro-town, as I really don't think a scum player would do a gambit like he did.

2) Malyss, or Vir4030? Both new players. Malyss has a bit of a funny way about her posting. She doesn't post much, with short, sometimes vague posts, but she posts often. She doesn't have very strong reasons for her votes (like with Vir's 'trying too hard to be town' first post), but it's not like she's bandwagoning, so I can't see how that would be harmful. I'll have to wait a bit to get a good read on her. Vir is interesting in that he is both experienced with mafia in general, and new to forum mafia, which will be important to take into account when figuring out if something is a tell or not. He's had no anti-town behavior that I can spot. He's been posting frequently, posting original opinions, getting involved in discussion but keeping back and analyzing. I'm getting a bit of a town read now, as he was able to go between calling out my scummy behavior, calling out the behavior of those attacking me, calling out my behavior, and perhaps understanding my behavior. That's the actions of a person who is honestly trying to puzzle something out, not mafia looking for a quick lynch. So if I have to pick, Malyss is more scummy than Vir to me.

3) Kairio, or Avangor? I really can't say. Both have been very lurky.

4) Katie, or OhGodMyLife? It's hard to judge here. I don't have much to go on with Katie, as most of her posts have been something along the lines of "I don't know". And it's always hard to compare an experienced player to a newbie, as if OhGodMyLife were scum, he'd be much better at hiding it. I've already voiced my opinion on OhGodMyLife earlier. Mild scum read, as he really didn't attempt to correct me on the whole lurking thing or address my arguments directly. At this point in the game, any reads I have on anyone are pretty mild. So yeah, both have non-serious, mild scummy points.

That's all for now. For those of you who haven't been posting too much, get some stuff out there so we can get a read offa you. Peace!

[SecretAgentOrange]

I guess it got missed last time I did it because it was in the middle of a paragraph (won't do that again), but

Unvote OGML

This is looking like a flake rather than an intentional lurk, because I severely doubt that an IC would lurk after an accusation of lurking (no matter how dumb it may be.) I'll hold out on voting until I can see what's up.

MiniKold, welcome. Good to have ya. I'm wondering, are you actually voting Alurin for an honest-to-goodness OMGUS, or is that just a random vote? If it's random, why can't you find anything scummy to go on in the amount of discussion we've had going on so far? You need to read this stuff. We've all been out of the random phase for a while. You should be able to find something to go off of here. Either way, an OMGUS or a refusal to scum hunt, that looks scummier than anything else I'm seeing at this moment. Until you start seriously scumhunting, I'm going to:

Vote: MiniKold

Malyss right now is also looking pretty scummy. I originally thought you were random voting when you mentioned "moniker prejudice". Vir was obviously random-voting to me. I don't think it makes sense to say that if a person says that someone looks scummy while keeping their random vote on another player it means that they still suspect the player their random vote is on. A lot of players don't IMMEDIATELY unvote when they notice serious discussion is starting, as most people don't think of random votes as really mattering. Now, if two other players were seriously voting for you and Vir didn't remove his random vote on you, then that would be scummy. What it looks like you're doing is noticing that Vir voted for you, then taking every excuse you can to find a reason for him to look scummy to you. Psychologically, I can't really think of a reason a scum would do that other than simple defensiveness, and I know personally how that sometimes can't be a great tell. But either way, you're not really helping the town right now. You seem to have been looking very closely at Vir's actions and letting other players' actions slide. I think it would be a good idea to take a closer look there.

[SecretAgentOrange]

SAO, your original thought that my “moniker prejudice” vote was random is correct.

So, wow, an OMGUS vote on a player with votes on him is enough to qualify me as scum and not as a cautious, novice player who was jabbing back for moniker prejudice? Yes, my name rhymes with "malice." OMG, I must be scum. Wink

I don't really understand how you supporting that it was random fits with this post here. Was it a random vote or was it the "jabbing back" of a "cautious, novice player"? If you're responding to his action with any kind of emotion, that's not random. This post is what made me think that your vote wasn't random.

I am not helping the town right now? I’ve queried another player regarding his vote to find out more about what was behind it after the game started to move away from the RVS as we started to learn more about the various players.

I didn't mean that you weren't helping the town at all. For one thing, you've been actively posting and discussing, and that's helpful. What I meant is that your almost single-minded pursuit of Vir on next to nothing is not helpful. You've noticed that Katie didn't post much, and you had a discussion about the nature of OMGUS. Neither of those things involves careful reading of a player's posts. But you have gone through pretty much every post Vir has made looking for something to find scummy about them. There is a time where you have to mark something up in the back of your head as scummy and then move on to see what you can find on other people. I mean, even if Vir is scum, he would have a partner.

Perhaps “flat out [asking]” is a scum tell or Vir is unaccustomed to direct questioning, or is made uncomfortable by it. If I want to know something, I will endeavor to question people so that I may have more information so that I can better understand things.

I don't think it's that you asked him why he's voting you. I think it's that you sounded like you said "I wonder why he's voting me" and then "Hey Vir, why are you voting me?" and then, after he explained why he was voting you "Hey, if you think THIS person is so scummy why don't you go vote for them instead of me since your vote on me is random?"

SAO, you told MiniKold that he needs to read the thread, but did you read my last post before you posted? In it, I touched upon Katie’s quietness since the 18th, OGML’s absence, and tried to look a bit at OMGUS voting and what it means. I am bringing this up because you made it sound as though I’ve not looked at any other players and their actions.

I did read it carefully. But again, noting that someone doesn't post often and having a game strategy discussion doesn't require the careful scrutiny of another person's post that you've been giving to Vir. Now don't get me wrong. Careful scrutiny is awesome. You just need to use it on more than one person for it to be at all useful.

I am not completely unsuspicious of Vir, but it seems plausible that he is an overeager pro-town paladin. He has come across as having a sincere desire to ferret out the scum, or maybe it’s a strong front from a scum.

This is the sentiment that worries me. It seems that the sum of your suspicions of Vir are that he's too town and that he's voting for you. Before, I couldn't really see a reason why scum would act the way you're acting, but now I can. Scum would have a vested interest in getting rid of the most helpful players. Now I'm not assuming Vir is town. There are definitely ways that he could be scum. But, if he is, then he'd probably be best caught later in the game, when you can analyze posts carefully, analyze previous voting patterns, and things like that, instead of just lynching a player who looks "too townie" right up at the front, because scum or not, those are the players who make things easier, and not to mention more fun, in a lynch or lose situation.

For the moment, I am starting to feel more suspicious of Katie. She has been absent for some time now. Is she lurking because she still is unsure of what to offer, because she is scum and isn’t sure how to approach the game, or something else?

Agreed. Get to posting, Katie!

[SecretAgentOrange]

Another busy weekend, though not quite as busy as the last, so I apologize if I'm not very active until Monday. Hopefully, I'll come back to lots of fun posts to read.

[SecretAgentOrange]

Not lurking Vir, thinking. At this point this back and forth has cleared SAO in my eyes.

Unvote

. I am a little concerned that Malyss is defending herself in so much of her posts, rather than scum hunting.

SAO, why do you vote for Mini-Kold over Malyss? It would seem to me that it's a better idea to vote the person who's given more reason for you to vote, than a

vote that was obviously in jest

.

I guess this makes me fall to my second suspect.

Vote: Malyss

.

My tendency early in the game, when I don't have enough good logical evidence to have a firm belief that someone is scum, is to use my vote to apply pressure. In the post where I voted MiniKold, I said that while Malyss was looking scummy, I didn't think she was scum because I couldn't think of a reason why scum would act the way she was acting. Since, I have changed that opinion. She looks scummier now than she did before to me. But, MiniKold also hasn't started scumhunting, and the longer this is the case, the more scummy he looks as well. Also, I'd like to point out that, while his vote was most probably in jest, it was a vote in jest in a thread where a good deal of serious discussion has already taken place. My vote was more about the refusal to start scumhunting than the chance that it was a serious OMGUS. I don't think that Malyss looks so much scummier to me that I want to switch my vote to her, especially since now that would put her at L-1. She also hasn't really responded to my post yet, and I'd like to give her a chance to do that. If Malyss is scum, we have plenty of time to lynch her, AFTER more discussion has taken place. I don't think I have nearly a good enough read on most of the players here to be comfortable with a lynch just yet.

[SecretAgentOrange]

Malyss, I appreciate your post.

I hope you understand that I am taking into account the fact that you are a new player. I basically wanted to say that being so critical to Vir to the point where you're ignoring other players is not helpful to the town. I was hoping that by calling you out on it, it would get you to say "Oh. OK. I'll try to do that" and then go and do some player analysis. I didn't want to get you lynched. I agree, your posts have been getting more and more helpful. By posting a lot, we can get a good read on you.

Just to make this perfectly clear: The fact that you are not analyzing other players as closely as you are analyzing Vir is not helpful to the town. That doesn't mean that you aren't doing anything at all that is helpful to the town. And that alone doesn't mean that I think you are scum.

I do think, though, that you are acting scummy. Your repeated refusal to go and do further analysis on other players doesn't sit right with me, as does your general tone of your posts and the fact that your main reason for voting Vir is that he's trying too hard to be townie. But, I am willing to chalk that up in the back of my mind and see what else we can find today. As it is now, there are some players that I don't feel we've heard enough from to get a good, accurate reading. Alurin, Kairio, Katie, MiniKold, and OGML are all players that I don't feel like I have a good read on just because they aren't posting enough. Once I do, if you still look this scummy and there isn't someone who looks more scummy, then I'd be willing to lynch you. But I don't think we're at that point yet.

[SecretAgentOrange]

I agree with Jahudo that now MiniKold is now inactive. My vote is not useful.

Unvote

To address Malyss. Right now, you look like you're making a good honest effort to be helpful. Awesome. I just feel that there are some things that you are saying that don't seem to be matching up. I agree that right now, if you were to be lynched now and you flip town, it wouldn't give us much information, because everyone could list valid reasons to think you're scum. I agree that now we shouldn't lynch you. But come end of the day, I honestly think that not lynching a scummy looking player because they look too scummy is bad logic. I don't think you're looking very scummy right now. I think that once this game gets more active, someone will come out looking more scummy than you. You're just something to talk about right now But I do want to state that, as much as it sucks when you lynch a scummy towny, you can't just not lynch people because of how scummy they look.

Right now, the thing that frustruates me, Malyss, is that you aren't really stopping the scummy looking behavior. It's your first game. It's ok. But I do want to continue pointing it out.

The first thing that I want to point out is that you keep contradicting yourself. The first was the deal about the random/not random thing. Now, you're saying that you don't have anyone to scumhunt on due to lack of activity, while your vote on Vir had been because of his

first post

, and there are still plenty of posts in the earlier half of the game to go on. I agree that right now there's not a lot to go on currently, but there's still stuff there and you haven't been trying to go for it. Contradictions are a sign of defensiveness, and not the good kind. The "oh no, I'm under fire, what can I do to make them not look at me" kind. If you're a townie, you need to trust your instincts better. You've been very uncomfortable with Vir's vote on you, or anyone's suspicions of you. If you are town, then you need to realize that everything you've done, you've done to help the town and under an investigation, that will come out if you just honestly say what you were thinking at the time. Not getting defensive is hard. I friggin know But I think that in mafia, that's what you need to work on the most. (And probably me too.) Step back and be honest with yourself in your defense, and step back and use your logic in your accusations.

I want to thank you for going over your opinions on all the players. That's helpful. I also want to point out in this current run-down-of-the-players post how it differs from your attack on Vir. When you attacked Vir, you looked at EVERY ONE of his posts to find out whether it was scummy or not. Here it really seemed you scanned. I don't expect you to do a post-by-post analysis of every player right now. I do agree with you that right now, there isn't a lot to go on. But once people do start posting, I'd really like to see what you would do with a post-by-post analysis of another player. Examine someone else as closely as you examined Vir. That would be REALLY helpful. I plan on doing that once activity picks up, even if the person I choose to do a PBPA on is totally random.

The last thing that I want you to do to make your play less scummy looking is, as you admitted, not keep your scumhunting so close to home. You assume that it doesn't look good to vote for someone who's voted for you. That isn't 100% true. It doesn't look good to attack someone BECAUSE they voted for you. And you did a lot of that. Like even when you said "SAO [is] more [suspicious] than Alurin, even if Alurin thinks that I seem 'vaguely disquieting.'" You actually stated that someone having suspicions of you was a strike against them. It's not. Everyone has to have suspicions of someone. Don't take it personally. If they're voting for you, it could be because you're doing something to make yourself look scummy, not because they're scummy scum scum trying to lynch you on trumped up charges.

That being said, of all the players right now, I think you're one of the most helpful. Regardless of town/scum status. We're getting a read on you, and you're getting discussion moving. If you're town and you could eliminate these false-positives on the scum-reader, then we'd be rockin' good.

Now on to Jahudo.

Welcome

I appreciate your coming in here with a nice big long player analysis. As is obvious, I like big long posts.

I agree that we can't get a good read on Katie, and as previously stated, that MiniKold is inactive. On the OGML/me incident, to clear it up, my vote wasn't random. But it was, as stated in my post there, for pretty weak reasons, as we didn't have much of anything to go on, with the added bonus of making the IC be more active. I did address the whole contradiction somewhere in one of my gigantic walls of text. What I was saying there was in a discussion about the specific instance when someone is picking a player at random to vote for to spark discussion in the random phase. If you're just picking someone at random to prod at, you should do it to someone who will respond to you and get discussion going, not someone who won't. I did not mean that you should never vote a potentially inactive player. I mean, once you know that they're inactive and not lurking you shouldn't have your vote on them, but I don't think there's a mafia player anywhere who thinks you should never vote a non-participating player.

Anyway, moving on. On OGML, I agree mostly that his past behavior wasn't scummy. A little bit on the not really responding to me thing, as I've stated. But now, he's hurting this game. He's an IC, he needs to be active and helpful. He needs to start posting or, if he's too busy, find another IC to replace him. Lord Gurgi's doing a fine job of answering questions and the like, but he shouldn't have to do that all on his own. It's not scummy, but it's not making the game fun for the newbs.

I've already gone on on Malyss so I'm just going to say that, for the most part, I agree. She's giving off a very new vibe, but also doing potentially scummy things. Once she stops making these tells, we can start examining her more accurately. But honestly, I don't think she'll get a chance to do that if the game doesn't get going more.

I disagree with you on Vir, just because the way he's playing feels a lot to me like the way I play, especially early in the game. Be active, and examine people for scumminess, but don't push hard on anyone until you have clear suspicions. I've never seen my mild wishy-washyness as scummy, and I don't really think that his is either. But I could be wrong. Further on in the game, my opinion could change.

Aaand, no real reason to comment on your opinions of me.

Anyway, welcome, thanks for being all helpful and awesome and crap.

[SecretAgentOrange]

WHOO! People are being awesome and posting! And I'm not! I'm so so sorry!

I got a minor concussion at work the other day, not a big deal, but I'm not in a good thinky thinky place right now, and Imma gonna go sleep now. See yas all later sorry sorry sorry.

[SecretAgentOrange]

Guys, I'm so sorry about the inactivity! I spent a few days recovering from the concussion, then there were issues with my refrigerator which involved my landlord making me stay up till noon for several days in a row waiting for a delivery (overnight shift SUCKS) I'm conscious and unconcussed now and doing a reread Expect a good post either later today or tomorrow! Love to all! Welcome Brandi! Let's get this show on the road!

[SecretAgentOrange]

Alright, I've done my reread of the stuff posted since I went all brain woogly, and I've got some opinions. First of all, I'm liking Brandi's playstyle. I haven't read closely enough to get a town/scum read yet (will do shortly), but she strikes me as a helpful player. And I'll respond to her notes on me first.

My notes so far:

Unvote Katie; Vote: OGML
IC's shouldn't be lurking, and with so little to go on at this point in the game, I don't think there's a better place I could put my vote right now.

This reasoning isn't really substantial enough to warrant a second vote. So he's an IC and he's lurking. So what? This is just as baseless as a random vote. I agree when OGML states that:

Going "what he said!" and dropping a vote, on the other hand, is scummy.

I've gone over my reasoning for why I voted there to death, but I'd just like to ask what the difference for you is between one vote and two? I mean, at this point in the game, two votes isn't anywhere near a lynch. You'd need three more people to pile on. If it's a valid reason for one vote, why isn't it a valid reason for two? I mean, as soon as I realized he wasn't lurking, I did take the vote off. But then again, it's possible that I hopped off because I was facing the great ire of OGML and I was so terrified of him that I had to take off my vote.

SAO goes on in her next post being way too defensive over the matter and goes on to say that the purpose of her vote was to get OGML to talk.

PG3:

OGML is happy with his vote, SAO continues to be over defensive. Completely out of character from how I percieved her on page one.

I feel like I was out of character because I was shocked and angry. I felt like I was being called scared and stupid. In retrospect, this was a stupid thing for me to think, but at the time it was my first week working a nightshift job, I was up all night thinking about the mafia game, and I honestly was kinda crazy. The frustrating thing is that I can't point to my previous play and say "this is how I always am". I'm consistently kind of wishy-washy in my voting, quick to throw a vote and quick to take it off unless I have solid suspicions that someone's scum. I always write a lot. And I really don't like lurking ICs. These are all demonstratable things about me, but I can't really point them out because it's all in one game that's still going on. I guess I just have to say that you'll have to watch my play in this game consistently, and I hope that my later play speaks for itself.

Also, OGML hasn't been lurking at all, I was just hoping to catch someone for being overeager.

Its rarely ever good for townies to lie. =P

How can we know you weren't SCUM trying to pull newbie townies in to make themselves the center of lynchattention?

FOS: Lord Gurgi

I really don't think a scum player would do a gambit like he did.

Scum can use gambits.

I didn't really say that scum wouldn't gambit. I said that scum wouldn't gambit like he did. If he was scum, he would have had to think to himself "Hmm. I think that as an IC, I'll lie to the newbies about the definition of lurking, and then start attacking them if any of them fall for it." I don't trust Gurgi to be a townie, but I do trust him as an IC to not do something like that. I could be wrong though. I don't really know the guy. And it's possible that he forgot he was playing with noobs, and just slipped and did something that's totally normal in a normal game.

But for now, that's the reason I'm a little hesitant to believe Gurgi as scum right now. I believe that some of his later behavior could come off as scummy. He's a little lurky. But I think that, as of now, that could be chalked up to me as him wanting to be a helpful IC but being hesitant to lead the discussion and play the game for the noobs.

Unfortunately, I apologize, but right now I have to go. I'll be back tomorrow to finish my opinions on what has been going on in my absence. Later!

[SecretAgentOrange]

First of all:

Lurk

-intr.v.

lurked, lurk·ing, lurks

1. To lie in wait, as in ambush.
2. To move furtively; sneak.
3. To exist unobserved or unsuspected: danger lurking around every bend.

4. To read but not contribute to the discussion in a newsgroup, chatroom, or other online forum.

If this is in response to my saying "the definition of lurking" what I meant was that Lord Gurgi claimed that OGML was lurking then later came out to say that OGML wasn't really lurking, it wasn't long enough to be considered lurking.

Once you are out of the random stage, a second vote could be scummy depending on the reasoning.

I guess this is something that I don't understand. This isn't really my trying to defend myself here, but just as a general question to pose to anyone. Is it necessarily scummy to vote for someone for the same reason as someone else has? I notice this is something that newbies do a lot, town and scum. I mean, does each person have to come up with an individual reason to think someone is scummy? Say Player A admits to trying to quicklynch someone and Players B C and D say "crap that's scummy!" and vote for Player A. Are Players C and D scummy? Or say on page 8 Player 2 says "Whoah! Look at this scummy thing Player 1 did on page 1!" and Player 3 goes "You're right! That is scummy! I didn't notice that!" Is player 3 scummy? I don't mean this in terms of my own instance of a second vote, I'm done there. Just a general Mafia question.

OK, my opinions on the current situation.

First, Gurgi, please don't think that I was trying to attack you back there. I mean to say that I don't buy what I think was the strongest evidence against you, but that I guess, theoretically, some of the more minor stuff might stick if looked at in context later on down the line. Since you are an experienced player, I am more cautious around you than some of the other players. No matter how townie your play (and I think your play is pretty townieful) you'll never get an unqualified "I'm pretty sure he's town" from me.

The lack of internal consistency is a bit, eh, I dunno. Worrisome. It's going on my "possible scummy actions" list, but, grar. I dunno. It's making me wonder what in this game actually IS a scumtell. I mean, I've found some pretty conclusive ones before in not-this-game, but this is making me feel like unless you have a specific instance where someone really slips up and does something stupid, all those things that people call scumtells are really just as easily town mistakes too. We're all paranoid about who's scum and who's not. (Well, except for the ones of us that are scum) It'd be totally possible for a townie to see someone do something, go "whoah scummy" and not realize that it's not that scummy because they've been doing it too. I recognize that I really don't want to think of Gurgi as scum, and I think that's bad. You shouldn't really feel that way about a player ever, especially on day one. But grar. I don't know. That paragraph had lots of "grar's" in it.

Kairio is worrying me a bit. He's been active, but not incredibly so. And his comment to vote ratio leans more to the vote side than other people's. But there's nothing about his actions that looks overtly scummy to me. He could in my mind very easily be either noobtown or noobscum. Neither would suprise me too much. At this point in the game, I wish I had a better feel on him than I do. Kairio, I'd really appreciate it if you could give us a run down of some of your opinions currently, so that we have something to go on on you, and something else to think about with the other players in this thread.

On Brandi, I'm not really sure what I think either. She posts a lot, but I do kind of see what Gurgi was getting at with the noncommital word choice. I don't think that she's avoiding agreeing or disagreeing with someone. She voices strong opinions. But it does make her posts hard to read sometimes. I think I'll have to see her post more to get a good read on her.

I like Jahudo's posting style. Lots of talking, lots of logic. I think I'll need to see more though before I form an opinion.

It frustrates me that I don't have any kind of real clear suspicions yet. I feel like everyone in this game is either playing well or has a good excuse for whatever mistakes they make. When I have time, and more posts from the new players, I think I'll just have to go back to the beginning and look for inconsistencies and whatnot.

[SecretAgentOrange]

Welcome to the game, MarkBG. I always love to see giant posts I really appreciate that you've started your analysis at the beginning. I think this is really helpful.

On your opinions:
Of me: You said that I was being scummy and overdefensive, and then when I stop defending myself it's because I'm covering up my scumminess and "can no longer defend myself". Which one is it? I've made it clear that I'll answer any questions in relation to my behavior in the beginning of the game. If you have any, I'll be happy to do so. But again, I think people are getting sick to death of me continually defending myself on that topic. So I'm not going to go through again and explain all that crap. I'll let time tell

Of Alurin/Jahudo:
You seem to be thoroughly convinced that Alurin is town because he asks people who they think are scummy and because he unvotes someone. I mean, I'll definitely say that there's nothing scummy about that, but does it really deserve an unquestioned town vote?

Of Malyss:
I think I'll talk to you about Malyss when you've gotten through the later part of the thread. A lot of what we talked about in regards to her was the nature of her early voting etc etc. So I'm not going to bother correcting on that stuff. But in general, I'm getting what your saying on a lot of it and it looks good to me.

Of Vir:
What you're saying about Vir has some weight. Early on, he's defensive, but it's easily chalked up to newness. If I remember correctly, Vir did more playing of mafia in real time. In those situations, people seem to take votes a lot more seriously than they do in forum mafia. It's harder to keep track of votes so people are more likely to only vote with firm suspicions, rather than to put pressure on someone. That's a third alternative for why he was stressed out there. But then again, it could be stressing him out because he's scum as much as that it's stressing him out because he's town. I don't really know what to think on the wishy washitude. I do that sometimes. I think it's a nulltell for me. Could be so for Vir. But it might not be. Who knows.

On Xolani/MiniKold/Avangor:
At the time, I thought MiniKold was acting way scummy. But it's hard for any of that to hold up. He became inactive before he could ever defend himself. We really don't know. As much as it sucks, I think we're going to have to ignore everything MiniKold did and just go on what's up with his replacement.

On Battousai/OGML:
The reason I think that IC's shouldn't lurk is not so much because it's scummy, but because they need to be there to answer noob questions and such. And if theoretically one of the IC's was lurking leaving one on their own, and some player gets in an argument with them about game rules/theory, there isn't anyone there to back them up and the noobs get all confused. But yeah. OGML was tough to read, and I think that the most we can get out of him is analyzing his posts in the context of Battousai's behavior.

On Gurgi:
I'm wondering what little things you've found to go on that early in the thread. I didn't mean that to be snarky or anything. I just didn't see any. I interpreted Gurgi's vote on Katie as a gambit, trying to elicit a response by putting someone at a high vote count. It seemed to me in line with his later OGML-is-lurking gambit. I could be totally wrong though. I do see what you mean about Gurgi sometimes having over exaggerated reactions.

Overall, good post I'd like to see more from you.

To the others who posted before, Brandi, gotcha on that. I think just saying what you think is a good thing. The only thing that gets me confused is when someone says "X kind of looks like a scummy thing to do but I see how Y could be seen as a town action." I think they're saying X is scummy but Y is not. When really they mean they're both scummy, but Y is not as scummy. When you use a lot of words like "sort of" or "could be" or "possibly" it's sometimes hard to tell what your opinions are on some things in relationship to other things But I could be kind of possibly guilty of that too

Jahudo, I see what you mean on scum bandwagoning and on Kairio. He was being super lurky. But, as with OGML and MiniKold, he went inactive, which to me could indicate real life issues coming in. It's frustrating and makes it hard to get a read. I mean, I don't know how much Kairio's behavior should be taken into consideration when talking about MarkBG. RAR REPLACEMENTS.

Any suggestions on how we should deal with analysis on replacement players, everyone?

[SecretAgentOrange]

Things are getting serious, it seems. I wish I had more time to do my own thorough readthrough right now. I don't. I'm pretty sure I will tomorrow. As far as my current opinions go, I think that there's something suspicious about the low-posting behavior of Xolani and his predecessors, but I certainly wouldn't throw my vote in now. From what I've read, generally on day one, there's at least one scum in the ranks of the lurkers. And lurkers aren't helpful. Come LyLo, you've got nothing to go on. But I'd like to give Xolani a chance to either start posting and analyzing and stuff or turn up to be inactive rather than lurking before we go and lynch him.

I want to do a reread on Gurgi. I have been getting a town read for a while, mostly based on my not wanting him to be scum (which is bad). But since others are disagreeing with me, I believe it does merit closer scrutiny.

Battousai, I'm looking forward to your more definitive post tomorrow. Right now, I'm not really comfortable with the fact that you did a read through then popped a vote on a player that's been getting a lot of flack from other players for pretty much the same reasons. I mean, granted, if he's suspicious, he's suspicious. But it would be a very easy vote for a mafia member to make. I'd really appreciate hearing more of your general opinions.

Xolani, post more. Battousai, post more. That's it for me for now, but I'll be back tomorrow with more.

[SecretAgentOrange]

OK, just making sure you all know I'm still alive and kicking. This PBPA is taking a lot longer than I expected it to. I'm down to post 99 right now. Shouldn't take too too long. But you know me. I make HUGE posts. So yeah. Big. Rar. Should be up tomorrow.

[SecretAgentOrange]

Bleh. I'm so sorry for this taking so long. Crazy crap going on here, and this thing is friggin gigantic. I apologize for that too. I put a lot of time into this one. I like to not only comment on things, but also rewrite the posts in my own, simplified words so that it's easy to see if I made a misunderstanding there or something. Plus it forces me to read closer.


Lord Gurgi Review:

Post 4: Random votes Vir

Post 7: Asks why Vir doesn't random vote

Post 9: Explains why random votes are cool.

Post 20: Says it's not scummy to place the second vote on a player. Prods activity.

Post 34: Describes game experience. Played a few games. Modded IRL.

Post 37: Votes Katie "Just because."

He was previously on Vir, with 3 votes, and then moved to Katie, putting her at 3 votes. I want to ask, Gurgi. I interpreted this as a play of some kind to get either Katie or others miffed at you for the L-2 to spark some discussion. Others have called it random. What was up?

Post 41: Says usually sticks to random voting unless something comes up.

Post 44: OGML play.

So far, I haven't really spotted any tells on Gurgi. Well, at least, once I figure out what the Katie vote was all about.

Post 56: Describes an apparent contradiction in my posting. Votes me. Says that OGML hadn't been lurking, and he was just trying to catch an overeager person. Then asks others to comment about my posts. (I'm assuming he was talking about me).

OK, so I don't know if I made myself clear before (I think Battousai got the wrong idea about what I was saying), but I'm going to explain my opinion on this gambit.

IC's are supposed to be on their top game. They're also not allowed to lie about game rules, mechanics, or strategy in order to gain the upper hand in a mafia game.

I think that saying that a player is lurking when they really haven't been inactive long enough for it to be considered lurking is coming pretty close to the line. I definitely wouldn't call it a serious offense, but it is on the line.

If he was town, he could have genuinely just been using a play that he would be using in any other game and overlooked the newbie aspect. Being on his top game.

If he was scum, he would have had to think about the aspect of deception. Specifically that newbies would be more likely to fall for it than someone else would, especially considering his position as IC. Gurgi has demonstrated himself to be a helpful IC. I don't think he would do that.

But upon reread, I've also noticed that, for an IC, Gurgi is relatively new. He's played a few games on this site, and modded IRL. I could feasibly see, as scum, that he might have been new to the ICing thing, thus making the newbie factor more easy to overlook.

I dunno. Remembering that Gurgi is relatively new for an IC makes me able to see that it's possible that he could be scum without being malicious. I'm more comfortable with that. I still think that overall, it's a town tell. It looks to me like he was consistantantly spurring activity through the beginning part of the game, and that was just one more thing he tried.

Post 72: Player analysis. I didn't respond well when pressured. Malyss says she has suspicions rather than saying what they are. Vir seems like an eager/crazy townie. Avangor no posts. Kairio no-content posts. Prods OGML and Katie to post more.
Nothing he's said here seems to lean Gurgi in one way or the other for me.

All valid opinions, IMO. But also said would consider voting for Avangor due to no posts. This strikes me as kind of weird. It's like feeling out a bandwagon possibility in a way. I mean, this might just be my play style, but if I vote an inactive player, it's to put pressure on them to become active. Just lurking, for me, isn't enough to want to lynch someone. It has to be persistant lurking, and persistant lurking can't come up by page 4. When you say "well, I could see voting for so-and-so", it generally means that you have actual suspicions of them as scum or a willingness to see them lynched. Maybe this is just me, but it seems scummier this way than had he just gone "Post more! Vote:Avangor".

Post 75: Asks Kairio to clarify on what he said about him.

Post 78: Responds to Vir's question of Avangor fos. If player picks up prod and doesn't post, could be scum. Getting replaced out is null tell.

OK, so it's more about him picking up the prod but not playing. Valid.

Post 99: "Not lurking Vir, thinking." He's cool on me, concerned about Malyss's defensiveness. Questions my vote on Mini-Kold.

It was 5 days since Gurgi's last post. That's a lot of time to be thinking, but I could see how sitting back and watching that interchange could provide more useful information than getting involved would. And since nothing we were saying was really implicating him or pushing for a wagon he was on or anything that really affected him, I don't think he had a real incentive to lurk there specifically as scum. I'm getting a null-read on this post.

Post 110: States that he's not lurking, that for lurking OGML is a better choice, IC's aren't lynch drivers, participation != town, Vir's vote hopping is bad, in a game this slow missing 4 days isn't serious, stop backseat modding.

This post sounds very defensive, but he also has a reason to be defensive. He was insulted. Vir said he was doing a horrible job, especially when OGML was doing a worse job. That kinda sucks. But I'm not so keen on the whole "Why not OGML?" thing. More on that later. Here's where Gurgi first accused Vir of vote-hopping, and it was right after Vir voted for him. It really seemed like he was looking for a reason to call Vir scum to get the attention off of himself. That's kinda scummy.

Post 116: Lots of <3's.

Yay!

Post 125: Clarifies that Vir vote-hopping was actually suspicion-hopping. Why vote him for lurking when others are lurking worse.

Post 128: ZOMG BRANDI.

Post 130: The lurkers aren't resurfacing, and don't steal questions, there was a plan, the OGML thing was to get things moving and it worked, Do you agree with Vir's lurking accusation?

The one thing of note in this post is that he was using some kind of loaded question to guage Vir's response. It's now aparent to me that Gurgi's playstyle is more about laying traps than passive observance. He seems to have an idea about how everything should go, if the players involved are town, and gets scummy suspicions if they respond in a different way. Gurgi has been getting a lot of flack for his various gambits. What do you guys think of that? Is it scummy? Personally, I'm not sure it leans me in one direction or the other.

Post 140: Never told people to vote for OGML, mod was threatening a mass prod on day 2.

Gurgi I'm really confused about this statement. First, of course you didn't tell everyone to vote for OGML. I've never seen a post where someone says "I Vote:PlayerA and EVERYONE ELSE SHOULD TOO!" Before you were saying it was a plan to catch overeager players voting for OGML. Doesn't that mean that you DID want other people voting for OGML? And I'm not drawing the connection with what you're trying to get across with mentioning the mass prod.

Post 142: Oops page 2. Do you never lay traps for scum?

Post 145: Don't defend others, cause nothing in this game is for sure.

Post 147: And when you're dead only in open/semi-open games.

Post 150: Oh noz lurkers. Where's Vir?

Post 162: Chatter chatter.

This is kind of strange to me. He was posting a cubic buttload when no one else is posting, but as soon as people come in posting content, he just posts this no-content post. He seems very concerned with making people not think he's lurking, but not really concerned with finding scum. This looks very scummy IMO. Is it appropriate to just wait for certain people to post and not pay any attention to the other things going on around you?

Post 171: Explained lurking to death. Brandi's got wishywashy wording, could be scummy. Ask questions cause people are finding things scummy without asking why.

This is something that I don't get. Aren't people supposed to go "It's scummy when you do X" and then YOU provide the "why"? I don't know what you're getting at here.

Post 173: DIdn't mean to attack Brandi. Off on this game. But every townie should be sure of their convictions, alignment, and the need to lynch.

Whoah whoah whoah. Didn't you say in post 145 "It is generally bad procedure to defend someone else, even at the point of them being confirmed to your knowledge, always be aware that nothing in this game sure." I mean, sure, that's a contradiction that's nitpicking, but you seem to be saying that contradictions are scummy, so I can't just leave that out.

Post 175: If someone doesn't agree that a lynch is necessary then lynch 'em

Post 179: "In retrospect yes, but I've always been bad about disregarding my own actions when going after scum. Sorry about that. "

Post 189: Clarify your scale.

Post 203: Responding to MarkBG's accusations. No real excuse for the lurking but "Thinking, not lurking" People suspicious of Gurgi aren't afraid of his traps so are town. Already covered his wishy-washy-ness in 179. Why do you have a read on Xolani?

This is both heartening and disheartening as a defense. For one thing, Gurgi isn't getting defensive. That's nice. He's also basically saying through this whole thing that the sum total of his defense is "Welp, my bad." No real excuse for his lurking but "thinking". And when he covered his wishywashyness in 179, it was basically "eh, I've always been bad at that. Sorry." And then there's the thing that anyone avoiding him is doing so because they're scared of his traps. This post comes off as scummy to me.

Post 215: Liberally applying votes yet holding back? Not posting enough but the other IC got replaced? "And I have already addressed [the issue of calling out Vir for vote changing], I'm annoyed that people keep bringing it up." Not active enough, but when I vote for people it's scummy? "I don't use FoS's I use votes."

Now this is defensive. I don't like how you seem to think that your posting only has to be compared to OGML. You said it yourself. Lurking for an IC is more serious than it is for a normal player. Are you suddenly supposed to be held to a lower standard because OGML afked out? And you're annoyed that people keep bringing up the vote-hopping issue? You gave next to no defense for that. Are we just supposed to say "Well, I guess that settles it. He's clear, guys." And you don't use FoS's, but you are willing to say "Avangor, Last post 13th. 8 days ago... I would consider voting here. " What would you say is the difference between FoSing and saying "I would consider voting here"?

As of now, Gurgi to me looks the scummiest out of anyone I'm seeing. He was very townie for the first half of the game, but got more scummy looking as the game went on. I want to go through and do more PBPAs, because I know that anyone looks scummier when put under close scrutiny. For now, Gurgi seems my top suspect.

Vote: Lord Gurgi

[SecretAgentOrange]

Shit, guys I'm so SO sorry.

There's been a family emergency. Nothing really awful or anything, no one's dead/dying, but it's going to have me driving an hour and a half back and forth to my parents house every day, and I'm not going to have time for mafia.

I need to request a replacement. I'm so so sorry.

Since it is getting kinda close to crunch time, I don't want anything to happen due to my not being being here and leaving a vote up, so

unvote

Good luck guys.