Newbie 655: Zeroville. (Game Over!)

[Yuu]

Hello! I got it.

[Yuu]

I'm wondering where Yuu is. Yuu, if you see this, don’t be shy, say hi!

Hi there! I'm unsure of what to do myself, being first game and all. So I wonder if it's okay just to watch people discuss a little more before deciding on who to vote, or is this an action frowned upon?

[Yuu]

I see, thank you all for the clarification! I've seen some friends playing offline in a variant of this game, but generally they voted based on the previous knowledge they had from the person. As this is pretty much impossible in a newbie's game, where the people don't know each other, I was wondering how you'd do that in the first day.

You wouldn't want to vote off a cop, would you? I mean, we don't know what anyone is, and my user name is p. cool.

Pope's, you seem pretty much desperate to defend yourself, uh? This argument is really low. What about you giving a good reason?

Sorry for being nervous in my first game.

I'm sure pretty much everyone new is at least a bit nervous here. Claiming it like it's any excuse for your words make you look even more suspicious.

[Yuu]

Unvote, Vote:JonMW

Why voting for him, M4yhem? He did look very anxious and all, placing a third vote on Pope before letting him explain himself, was it because of that?

[Yuu]

Also, lynching someone today raises the chances of finding mafia next, statistically, no? With no lynch today, next day, we have 8 people left, but if someone is killed today, it's 7 people. And what is easier, finding scum between more people, or less?

[Yuu]

Pope's actions look a bit contradictory for me. He jumped at Hohum - one who wasn't able to deffend himself because he just wasn't here - but never said one thing about Syphen, who, at that point, had shown up only to vote one people off. By Pope's logic, he was voting Hohum because he wasn't active, but the only activity Syphen showed was voting someone. Yeah, better than not showing in the game at all, but if the activity or lack of it was such a concern for you, Pope, enough reason to lynch someone, why not even mentioning Syphen? Is he a buddy of yours?

[Yuu]

Evaluating all players is looking pretty much important. It seems a good way to put some order on your thoughts.


WhereIsTony - I didn't notice him before, really. I knew he posted because of I saw his avatar floating around, but now I went back to check and noticed the majority os his posts were one line or so. I agree with Michel that this action looks more suspicious than Syphen right now, yet, I can't guess his character. It's only the beginning of the game, though. If he continues on like that, I'll bet scum.

J_Sir - He participates a lot and points out important things. For now, I believe in town also.

MichelSableHeart and M4yhem - My feeling about both of them is the same, both are very good and helpful ICs. Both look town for me.

Syphen - Posts right after being point out that his actions are scummy, and the only information brought by his posts is that he likes motorcicles. My thoughts on him are the same I have on Tony. Looks scummy, but it's not a strong feeling.

The Pope's Tiara - He cleared himself of some suspicion when he decided to explain a bit more of his actions, but still, I can't forget his previous words (mainly because this is a forum and everytime I check the previous posts his cop excuse glares at me).

Somedamnkid - I haven't seen much of him, but I already like his posts. Townie, for now.

JonMW - Hurried to place a third vote for Pope before letting him explain his actions, changed his vote just because there was some suspicion on him, and as soon as people started to get onto him he pointed out Syphen (Can't help but think he was trying to divert attention).

Vote: JonMW

[Yuu]

@ Yuu
Do you worry that IC's being helpful is making them seem more pro town to you than they may be.

When you say that, I assume you thought that by 'helpful' I meant the guidance they offer us inexperienced players, but it's not that, I meant they really look like helping town. By inquiring people further, and suggesting lots of things we wouldn't have thought about (aka making us talk), they are preventing us to make misjudgements and avoid a rushed lynch - or at least it's the way it seems to me. For example, M4yhem posed us questions, and Michel got us evaluating everyone. I think that it helped us not only to develop the game, but to get to know everybody a little better. [/quote]

[Yuu]

I find the idea of the list most interesting! M4yhem, you sure come up with some great ideas (also, congratulations, happy scumday!).

From most scummy to less:

1 - JonMW
2 - WhereIsTony
3 - Syphen
4 - The Pope's Tiara
5 - J_Sir
6 - M4yhem
7 - MichelSableHeart
8 - SomeDamnKid

I have only an eye set on the first four, but who knows. I think geral opinion on them was made know, but the reason behind the order I picked was that

1 - I still can't get over my suspicions on JonMW. He claims Pope's excuses were flimsy, and that it took them to less M4yhem's suspicion, but his excuses could be just as flimsy. For some reason I don't like the summary he did of his posts, for me, it looked like no new information was added and he was just trying to appear less scummy by posting something huge and apparently helpful.

2&3 - Tony and Syphen. Yeah, I see reason when believing lurkers to be mafia, but Tony posts more than Syphen and manages to say less. That sounds more suspicious to me, so I'm puting him first on the list.

4 - Pope. He sounded really scummy at first, but now, my suspects on him are almost gone (though some people managed to post pretty good reasons on why he's still looking bad in their opinions)


On the rest, well, I had to order them from less scummy to more. SomeDamnKid makes good points and is one to give me town vibes. Then come the mods, which seem to play on town's side, and who are definitely avoiding a hushed lynch, and then J_Sir. I don't get town or mafia vibes from him, so he looks more neutral on my eyes.

[Yuu]

Not your last posts, Tony, that's why I'm not voting for you. But look at your first ones, you wrote lot of one line only posts - that struck me as odd. Now you seem like you're finally giving away more information, writing more, but it could be just because people pointed out your behavior and started to vote for you.

[Yuu]

Yuu- If we all suddenly started voting you, how would you defend yourself? What would you say to change our minds?

I can't defend myself if there's no acusations for me to defend myself of, right? While claiming that someone might be scum is easy, and it isn't hard to come with something that might be an evidence (because we're all pretty much paranoid, since everyone could be scum - and at that point anything is a reason to doubt anyone), I guess that I only would be able to reply to your question if that really happens. I think the responses of people really depend on the context - what people suspect them for, or how the game is going. And while I think I'd be reasonable and try to free myself of any suspicions that might exist (what I think it's pretty hard on the beginning of the game, since I believe we all doubt everyone at least a bit - well, I do lol), I might also freak out. Meh, that's a hard question to answer!

Also, on the Syphen case, I believe in number 3, give him a free pass for today and try to lynch his partner. RL looks pretty hard on him (but if that goes on, asking for a replacement looks good).

[Yuu]

Hi there!
I by myself thought the game was going pretty slow, with Syphen getting away for a few days and Pope being replaced - I felt like I had nothing else to add than general opinion, and I feel a post that adds something is better than just a 'hi, I'm there, and I agree with everybody else' - the sort of thing that made me look down on Tony's first posts.

Besides that, I admit I felt a little angry, I mean, the reading you made of someone is worthless, since there comes another one who plays in an entirely different way- no offenses, Tumescence! If Pope couldn't play, that's okay, life happens, but I feel somehow cheated on, since we already had our opinion on everyone - and the role of Pope and Tumescence now is all... blurry. Pope acted suspicious (I believe for being so impulsive), and now Tumescence doesn't. It makes his case way more difficult.

I guess thanks to J_Slr now is the time to M4yhem have his question answered, then.

I'll try and post more, and be more useful to the town - if I understand right, people are doubting me for not getting a reading (which is totally understandable - if I'm not making myself clear, it's better for the mafia) and, well, the traditional Agatha Christie rule that the one people don't think that is the murder is the murder? Lol I'll just assume you're kidding in that one, Jon.

[Yuu]

A question for the ICs (MichelSableHeart, M4yhem):
I think JonMW's logic above is patently flawed. Is this reasonable grounds to suspect him as scum? What do you think of JonMW and his reasoning?

I know you're directing this particular questions to the mod, but-

I think everyone is prone to mistakes and, eventually, have a flaw in our logic. We aren't perfect ,and that's no indication someone is scum - except if this flaw somehow works out as hinting obviously at the poster. But voting at someone just because their logical deduction is flawed looks really hushed.

Ps: The one you talk about is his Jon's claims Pope claimed to be a cop, no? I somehow agree with him, actually. Even if Pope was only mentioning the probability, it sounded awfully like he was hinting at something to me.

[Yuu]

I won't say I'm fine voting Syphen, he said he was coming back, so I think it'd be at least ok wait for him - but it seems the scores have changed?
I'd like to see Tumescence reaction to that after he comes back. I think the ideal would be having both of them here? But then, that might be hard or impossible.

Also, the delay on getting some votes isn't all helpful... Does anyone know if Michel is being IC in other games? That could be delaying him.

[Yuu]

Yuu, M4yhem, and everyone else: do you still think that Pope's purpose was to make others think of him as a cop, or do you acknowledge that alternative purposes are possible?

If you think alternative purposes are possible, why do you still forge ahead to vote for Pope on such absolutely circumstantial evidence? Can you find noone more suspicious? (i.e. if you're voting for me, or greatly suspect me).

For me, it seemed more like a very desperate act. He could've been pointing the dangers of random voting - but why? I think the ICs had clearly stated that, in the beginning of the game, it was a good move. The only way I could've seen him then pointing out the 'dangers' of random voting was to save himself, not to warn people. For me, it was a move that, no matter wether Pope truly was a cop, mafia or townie, put the town at risk. (And it totally proved the ICs point - this random vote made Pope overreact so much it generated a discussion that goes even when he's out of the game)

Well, I can't say on that, I didn't vote for Pope. Pope's actions, though fishy, could make me think he was just someone without experience or short tempered. What calls my attention is that, for example, you spent some time arguing with people about Pope when they now aknowledged other suspects, like Syphen or Tony, etc. (J_Slr even had removed his vote on Pope, Tony said you didn't look scummy, though Pope did). I see how, by deffending Pope, you're trying to deffend yourself, but I also saw that people weren't relating you two, or were confused. And instead of trying to offer a good reason why Pope/You/Your Role should be innocent (I don't see that - for me, your logic seems based solely in a sentence, and that doesn't do much for me: people suspected Pope for other reasons than his infamous Cop argument) and moving on to hunt scum, you're stuck deffending him.

Questions:

**Tumescence**, based on the game before you came in and people started to vote you, and also based in all of your readings of people, in who would you have voted? I saw what you thought of people, but I didn't saw you pointing out/voting someone before people started to vote you desperately, and I'd like to see an argument that is not 'he tried to quicklynch me' or something like that (I recognize this one is a strong argument, but I'd like to see something more).

**Tony**, why this forth vote for Tumescence without even explaining your reasons?

[Yuu]

Welcome, guys. I'm glad you're in. Wow, 1/3 of the people have been replaced - is that usual in games?


Well, I'd like to

Unvote, vote: WhereIsTony

.

Jon doesn't sit in my first place anymore - though he still looks suspect for me. I'd say for me now my 'rank' stays:
1 - Tony
2 - Jon
3 - Tume

Tume talks a lot and his explanations gave me a new look on him - his explanations make sense to me, and he's trying hard to prove his case against others now, too, instead of just being defensive. That doesn't mean I'm about to forget his previous actions (the whole arguing if Pope did or did not roleclaim as a mean of defense of his role really made me think for a moment he might be scum), but it lessened my suspicions on him.

Jon still sticks out to me, but I'm going to have to go with Tony. He says he already explained himself but actually provided no further information, he gives a fourth vote with no comments, and his short posts still bugg me. He doesn't defend himself with the (repeated all the times someone asks) claim that "the innocent don't need to defend themselves" and that... It might be another point of view, sure, but if you don't show how exactly you're innocent, how am I supposed to believe in you? Anything you say can be used as information about you. Ok, you might find more important to scumhunt, but when you defend yourself, we can see more of your behavior, and that helps town, too. For me, it looks like you think that defend is an act of the mafia, and attack, an act of the town. But don't forget the mafia is attacking, too, and the innocent have to protect themselves against a mislynch.
"I see no problem with short posts if you post frequently" - I don't get that, either. I thought it was about quality, and not quantity.

When you only make short posts, attack and don't defend yourself, I think you're mafia with no knowledge on how to cover your lies and attacks townies to put blame on them. That's what you look to me. On the other hands, your actions made me think. While I've been suspecting Tume for being extremely defensive (and, supposedly, having something to hide - but now he's showing a more balanced game), I'm suspecting you for the exact opposite reason. You said Michel came out as an agressive player, but you seem much more agressive, at least to me. While a defensive game alerts me, and agressive one just screams mafia - town has no reason to be as rushed as you were (still using the example of the fourth vote: you didn't even let Tume, a new player who had only been in the game for a page or so, explain himself before putting him into an extremely dangerous position. If he's actually mafia, it's great, but if he's town and dies, it's just what the mafia wants).

[Yuu]

I'm as lost as ou as why J_Slr was killed. I think it's better if we, after thinking about some possible reasons, go discarding what could't be first. The problem in finding the reason why J_Slr was killed is that if we find the wrong reason, the logic beyond the thought will lead us to wrong people (at least I think - you experienced players could help here, I have no way to confirm if that really happens, but for me it seems it would).

J_Slr hadn't been particularly attacking anyone, he changed votes many times. Only if mafia felt really threatened by some of those posts I think there'd be a reason for they killing him, so I agree we should watch who J_Slr was after. But he wasn't the only one thinking about Tony and/or Jon - SDK and me, for example, were too (and even the latest Tume, as everyone can see by the votation). So while they might be mafia (heck, I'm not changing my opinion until I see them again) who felt threatened by a particular post, I think we should look at other probabilities.

[Yuu]

I don't see why a 5th vote is anti-town. Scum has to be lynched some way, if no one does the last vote, how we're going to lynch it? Nobody could be for sure if Tume was or wasn't scum, and it will be like that with everyone - we can only be sure once the person is dead. In the same way he wasn't, he could've been.

I think it's highly improbable (but not impossible, of course) for scum to give the last vote. It attracts attention (I mean, who didn't take a second look at Populartajo when he announced his vote and Erg0 said Tume was dead? First I had assumed he had counted the unvote in his calculations, but now he said he didn't) so it seems to me they wouldn't do that.

[Yuu]

**Jon**
Why wold Populartajo try and 'make peace' with you if he was scum, what advantage do you think he could gain with that? Look better in town's eyes? But you said yourself you were on people's black lists yourself, why would he try to be friendly with someone like that? Of course we haven't had many posts til now, but the last comments about you have been some full of suspicions (M4yhem and SDK) . Populartajo was the only one to aid you - and I can assure you that counted as suspicion against him too.
But of course I see no reason to keep on thinking that now with our posts, obviously. I just wanted to know why you overreacted.

**M4yhem**, don't you think this game is dangerous too? If there's a cop and he ends up lynched today, that mafia could kill the innocent he named. And as people will name each other only on chance, they might up endind naming mafia as innocents - and that will prove to them who isn't cop. And knowing who isn't cop is just a step to knowing who, in fact, is. If that happens, your 'trap' will function perfectly, but do you think it's worth the risk? I mean, the cop is a town weapon. Revealing him to the mafia doesn't look like a good prospect.

[Yuu]

Oh, wait.
Yeah, that's a pretty decent reason why Jon overreacted.

If Jon is scum, why would he point Populartajo as guilty? You claim doctor, but you (and Michel) were on the game for so little. How could we believe he guessed the doctor - a lucky strike, perhaps? And if you die and is revealed to be town, he's going to get it so hard the third day won't even last one hour before he is lynched. And honestly, mafia could try and get the doctor (or who they think he's) killed without resorting to drastic measures as sacrificing one of themselves in the second page of the second day. You'd believe they'd at least try a little before if they thought your death was so necesary.

I'm going to hold my vote for now - we still haven't enough to get who your buddy is, and I suppose the day shouldn't end before we at last got us some information.

Tony, don't hold back from posting you opinion. You don't need to vote as soon as you post, so let us hear about what you think.

[Yuu]

I am seriously torn I am leaning toward jon being a cop, but I would HATE to cost us a doctor.

I listed the two scenario's to try to see which was better.

I think it is a bit of a stretch that Jon as scum picks the doctor.

I am 80 percent toward voting jon.

So wait. I don't understand well. You're leaning towards Jon being a cop, and thinks it's a bit of strech that Jon picked the doctor if he's scum (correct me if I'm wrong, my english failed me this time, but when you say it's a stretch, do you mean you think the possibility is remote?).

So why do you still wants to vote for Jon?

[Yuu]

Tony, yes, it means. There's only a mafia roleblocker if there're no power roles or if there're both. Unless Jon isn't a real cop (and who believes he's scum at this point?), there's a doctor.


(I'm lazy to use the quote tag, and it won't work anyway):
Tony: "Not enough to vote because, simply not believing jon is not enough to vote."

Sorry, I didn't understand what you said. Don't you believe Jon?

FoS SDK

. His disappearance seems suspect to me. Last day he didn't appear, might have something to do with PopularTajo being lynched. If they were partners and SDK didn't know how to act, maybe he thought staying away would be the best option for him. As the day was quick, he might even said he wasn't online, but there's no way to confirm that unless he appears and starts posting.

[Yuu]

Tony, there's a very plausible reason I didn't vote: The day could've lasted longer. Sure, we knew Popular was scum, but we should've let him talk. The more he talked and people argued, the more information we would've had, maybe even enough to find his partner. A rushed lynch only favors scum, because it prevents discussion. Now we don't have PopularTajo, who could have betrayed his friend if he ended up talking more, and neither M4yhem, who was one of the ICs, so theoretically he could've have helped even more, as he already had done. Let's not forget how he was the one who made Jon talk.


Afatchic, your idea looks reasonable, I'm gonna make a table and see how it works - I'm still in doubt because we have to take in account we aren't lynching blindly (so we have a better chance to kill mafia today) and mafia might have a better idea at who is the doctor than we think. I'm pretty sure no lynch is the best option, but let everyone give their two cents before any decision is reached.

[Yuu]

Yeah, if he dies today, even being townie, it's confirmed the town will win. So there's no reason for not hammering him.

Except there is, I'm scum. (And I would've gotten away with it too if it weren't for those meddling kids!)

Anyway, I see no reason to delay the upcome of this game, I'm not exactly the type who wants to take more people to the grave with me. You all played so wonderfully! My only hope was or for you all to kill the doctor today, or for there be no lynch (thanks for the idea, Afatchic!) and for me to kill one of the people Jon investigated

Like, it would be

Jon, Innocent #1, Doctor, Townie, Me.

If I killed or Innocent #1 or Doc/Townie confirmed to be innocent tonight, then there would be left Jon and one innocent to decide who to lynch, and maybe I'd have gotten away with it. But sadly for me Jon is an awesome cop *hails* and I totally FAIL at spotting power roles.

I hope I'll be better scum by the time we meet again, I totally want a revanche now. I'm sorry for not being able to pull an awesome finale. Believe me, I wished I could've killed more of you too X3 I could've let Afatchic die and kill someone else tonight, but there'd be no point, and it would only delay our next game. Sooo..

Vote: Yuu

[Yuu]

Nah, PopularTajo, I guess we should've killed M4yhem first, before he started putting ideas in people's heads lol. I've said it before, but still now I'm in awe with the things he came up with.

Actually, we killed J_Slr because we thought he might've been the doctor. He was more neutral, quiet and all, not attracting much atention.

Tony was the doc, no? If you investigated SDK and Afatchic wasn't... I would've NEVER guessed. After killing M4yhem I was thorn between SDK and Afatchic, you hadn't even crossed my mind. Did you purpuosefully kept saying that about not protecting yourself, or this is the way you'd play even if you weren't the doctor?

[Yuu]

Oh, wait, ok, so Tony *wasn't* the doctor. Sorry, for some reason I thought the cop knew power roles too instead of only guilty or innocent. My bad!