Newbie 2043: Cherfnul - Game Over

[Chumbo]

1. Is this your first game or do you have past games? Can you link me your best scum and town games if you do have past games? In other words, what games do you want me to metadive you?

2. Favorite role? Favorite alignment?

3. How good are you at scumhunting (self-evaluation), from 1-10?

1. This is my first game.
2. I'm not sure, but I think a power role would be fun to have. I also think it would be fun to play as mafia, because you'd have to be sneaky with intentions.
3. Probably not very good.

VOTE: Trendall

[Chumbo]

So what I have noticed most in this game is that Ben talks a lot, but in a lot of what he says there doesn't seem to be much substance. There was a post where he explained why he doesn't like to do RVS because it takes energy, but that caused him to expend much more energy in an self-envoked explanation. Another thing I've noticed about him is that he likes to use the words townie and conservative. I also think that his asking for reads this early on is strange, when only 3 people have more than 3 posts, while not giving his own reads in the post. I also thought his pressure of clidd, on not immediately posting his meta and then harping about clidd's language he used was strange. I did not feel this way about clidd's use of words. I thought that, for the most part, that what he said about not immediately posting the meta was a joke.

That being said, I don't really like how clidd eventually caved under pressure about the meta. Nothing else he has said has really stood out though.

I'll comment on Trendall later, right now I need to get some sleep.

Everyone else hasn't posted very much, myself included.

If someone was one vote away from being lynched, and there were people who wanted to continue discussion but you were convinced they were scum, would you hammer them?

I wouldn't, especially if it was after day 1. There might be someone who has a good reason not to want the hammer to happen like maybe they know the person is not scum because they are a power role that has the result of proving it. I think discussion should have a decent chance before a quick hammer. I think this was a very good question to ask.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: ben dover123

[Chumbo]

Oh god, I just realised, I thought ben dover123 was an SE for some reason. Apparently he's not. I'm going to have to bloody reread all of that now.

What about being an SE makes it different how you read them?

[Chumbo]

What's your take on afk slots, Chumbo ?

I think scum is likely to lurk, but there are so many afk slots right now that I don't have an opinion about any of them in particular. Hopefully people start posting more.

3. Hm. The weird part of his post for me is 1. his "definition on meta and 2. his wording. I know he should be capable of being much more competent over writing, and I'd expect that he would know meta by now.

My understanding is that meta refers to "the way someone plays mafia" and you can use meta by looking at other games to see how a person generally acts to see if they are acting differently. Correct me if I'm wrong about this.
The main reason I have this stance on you is that you are

trying

to look like town.

[Chumbo]

The way that you post gives me the feeling that you are trying to look town. The difference between being town and trying to look town, IMO, is that scum will try harder to look town. That is the main thing that makes me suspect you a little.

[Chumbo]

@clidd: What exactly gives you a town read on Trendall? Most of the content he has posted is just arguing with Ben about "opinion vs turn of phrase" and SE elimination on Day 1. No reads, not many questions.
I see him as null right now.

@Trendall: Do you have any reads right now?

I'm going to be working on Ben's question at the top of this page now.

[Chumbo]

But, the energy part isn't nearly as important. Point 1 is why I do not want to participate in RVS voting and reaction fishing. For example, I know some people would argue that since I don't want to participate in RVS I want to prolong it and therefore I am scum, which is an argument, but it is moving the ball in the wrong direction, especially since the reasoning behind the argument is baseless. I believe natural reactions are the best ones to get the ball rolling in the right direction, especially tonereading early on is a way to create some good reads.

Anyways, being too proactive isn't good for anyone, especially me, because I start to lose focus on my reads and who I'm scumreading if I try and be extremely townie. That is the reason why I may look like I'm being conservative D1, and as Battle Mage said, I look a bit passive.

This is a decent example of what makes gives me scum vibes, explaining every action of what you're doing even though no one asked. Posting your meta for us to just accept "yep that's what he's doing must be town". This is what I was talking about when I said trying to look townie.

This is an awkward sentence. Scum has more motivation to not post their meta then town does. Additionally, you have got the idea of meta wrong, which is surprising noting the fact that you started playing almost a year ago.

Another thing I've realized by this post is you have not only accused me of not having the right idea of meta, but also clidd. You also never actually posted any of your own games.

I will say my reading on Ben is mostly gut-based on how he handled the early game. I haven't really seen much recently to make me think he's scum, other than posts seeming kind of fluffed. But with so many people being afk, I'm not really surprised.

[Chumbo]

I'm VLA for weekend

You have been afk long enough to get prodded (about 37 hours), and now you go VLA without offering anything? I don't like this at all.

[Chumbo]

Trendall: are you going to answer my question or do you have to be coached? You've played plenty of games here already.

[Chumbo]

I don't find these reasons very secure in any way, and Chumbo added a couple of extra details that never happened, as if to increase the effect of his attack intentionally. This is Chumbo's first game after all, so it is
understandable if his attacks are weak, but adding fake details? Something is off here.

I didn't add any fake details.
You have been posting your meta and you did call both clidd and I out for our understanding of meta.
Since meta means 1. how a person plays mafia and 2. using past games to look into a persons playstyle, I am using the first definition to say you've been telling us your meta (or how you like to play). Right there in the posts I quoted you said that you try to be extremely townie and may seem conservative.
As for the other "fake detail".

3. Hm. The weird part of his post for me is 1. his "definition on meta and 2. his wording. I know he should be capable of being much more competent over writing, and I'd expect that he would know meta by now.

That's where you called me out

This is an awkward sentence. Scum has more motivation to not post their meta then town does. Additionally, you have got the idea of meta wrong, which is surprising noting the fact that you started playing almost a

and here's clidd. You did call us both out.

[Chumbo]

Just wanted to post a quick question about the term "obvious town". What exactly does it mean? Because it doesn't seem like anything can be that obvious and it seems like it would be a hard thing to turn on. Why couldn't scum be obvtown if it's something you can turn on?

[Chumbo]

What is scummy about this? For the most part, I think your argument against ben could also be an argument that he is an awkward townie. I'm leaning towards him being an awkward townie, and I think he is an easy target for mafia.

My thought process here was that him using those words often was him trying to associate him with town, which scum would try to do. It's probably not exactly a good argument of mine, but early on that's what I was thinking.

Unfortunately I don't have much to say at the moment, other than I don't think Ben is actually scum anymore. I also have a decent townread on Pragdoid/LavarManos slot.
I had a townread for the most part on clidd, but with the contradiction and the point I brought up earlier about hesitating to provide meta, then changing his mind and posting it anyway is making me rethink it.
Trendall I'm not sure about, I'd like to know what he has to say about clidd or Ben, because they have definitely posted enough to have some type of read on them but Trendall doesn't seem to want to give that information up.

UNVOTE:

[Chumbo]

Alright, I'm taking off Trendall from the foreseeable interaction list.

What do you mean by this?

It's also pretty scummy to automatically equate contradictions to scumminess. The same argument holds true for a major portion of RVS votes, so if the SR did stem from here, it reinforces my read.

I disagree with you on this. I think that contradictions, in general, are scum behavior. Scum has to lie and if they don't keep track of their lies, they contradict themselves. clidd did explain himself later, which you can take it or leave it, but I don't think it's scummy to call out a contradiction.

[Chumbo]

So RVS votes with poor reasoning are inherently scummy?

No, I said contradictions are scummy. Never said anything about RVS reasoning.

[Chumbo]

While I'm looking at the new posts,
@ben: he only has newbie 2037 to look at, but rock does have 1 town game under his belt.
originally I thought his meta seemed about the same, but I'm not so sure looking at his new posts. What do you think about this?

[Chumbo]

@above: Never mind, just got caught up and I see you made a reference to it already. Just skimmed the thread before.

[Chumbo]

Also I missed the other game he was in.

Interesting. You are now a scum lean.

This definitely comes off as a weird reason to develop a scumlean on Ben.

Sure, bad reads != scummy in a vacuum, but my readlist in the previous page should appear to be obv!scum to any towny reading it. I state my opinion on how I think it's scummy to go along with the consensus, and immediately proceed to make a polarizing readlist with the most unsubstantiated garbage reads. That should look like maf trying not to contradict themselves while failing to give good reasoning in this context, and the fact that you didn't notice this points to you being scum more often than not due to TMI.

Why would you go out of your way to try to make something against consensus? And why would we care if you changed your mind about Pragdoid reads if you later realized that they were good reads? I get that you're trying not to contradict yourself, but yeah it really does make you look like mafia.

Also why the actual f*** would you purposely make bad reads. That makes absolutely no sense from a towny perspective.

Why not? And how does that matter as a response to my read?

I can't think of a intention why town would purposely do something like this.

Your AtE is definitely a contributing factor. You seem way to concerned with your image.

Haha! Brutal.

I find it fascinating that clidd and Rockhopper both are just going along with "yeah I look like scum, what about it"

I'm going to VOTE: Rockhopper I think thats E-2

PEdit: @LoneMarkhor: I don't think it looks good.

[Chumbo]

I didn't change my mind about Pragdoid. That wasn't me going out of my way against consensus.

ok, that was just my thinking. You still didn't want to contradict yourself though?

Trendall is my top town read atm

I really don't see why, but ok.

It feels like he is trying to save his scum partner(Clidd).Or(idk) he may have gone out of his way to pressure others but really that was too much so I think its not possible.Was Clidd not defending him because he was waiting for his other partner to take the heat off him.If so then it didn't go well for them.Well if so It would be his first time playing scum.It is most likely he is mafia. I cant think why he would do this as town.He was more likely trying to save half the mafia being caught day 1.Of course all this relies on the hypothesis that Clidd is also mafia.But I think Clidd voted for him too.What could that mean?So there is a chance this might not be true.Unless further analysis
(A bif FOS on rockhopper)
I'd probably voting him.

I don't know. I think it's one or the other. clidd kind of seems like he's trying to save his own ass from being lynched. I may end up changing to clidd if he doesn't provide something better after BM posts.

[Chumbo]

I am really curious what BM is gonna post.I dont think its going to be what I think it will be.

What do you think it will be?

[Chumbo]

Wow, that's not what I expected you to say at all. I guess we'll see.

[Chumbo]

Yeah, I'd say so.

[Chumbo]

I agree with that Rockhopper

[Chumbo]

Wouldn't have thought it makes a difference because it sounds to me as though that's just a wild stab in the dark.

Yeah I guess, I'd kind of like to see what BM has to say before we get too far into it though. He is the most experienced player here.

[Chumbo]

Ruling out {Bend, clidd} and {Lone, Trendall} as the scum teams

If lone and trendall was a scum team, this is a genius move.

[Chumbo]

I mean Chumbo could easily be the mafia.

Based on what?

Hello! I had some issues with permissions and couldn't post. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to answer Mr. Dover, this is my first game so I'm not really sure about any of that. I played a few games of irl mafia with some friends, but haven't played online so I'm really not sure what to expect. So far the people I'm most suspicious of are clidd who seems a bit off and artificial, and ben dover who looks like he's trying to look like hes being helpful without doing much to actually help or solve. On this page for example, Ben attacks Lavar for voting for Rockhopper, while he himself is also voting for Rockhopper and is pushing for more votes there.

VOTE: ben dover123

I really don't think ben is scum. I did before, but with his meta analysis and other newer posts, it doesn't seem like he is anymore. I don't see scum intentions.

A great question. It depends - I am generally a "hammer first, ask questions later" sorta guy.

I'm not really a fan of this answer, would you at least wait for a claim?

VOTE: Chumbo

Why? You have said nothing about me.

Spoiler:

I'm a town PR and my role is Doctor.

I need you to actually burn your scumcase on me and forget every reason that says that I'm scum, so we can work together.

Why would you do this?

Yeah so as mafia you sacrifice yourself to out a pr.

I highly doubt this. I still think this was a bad thing to do, but I don't see why mafia would sacrifice themself when they only have 2 votes on them.

[Chumbo]

I'm thinking about lunar or lone.

Why lone? I don't buy the rolefishing idea at all.

[Chumbo]

I was discussing a possibility why you werent scum.That was NOT rolefishing.

The rolefishing thing relates to the mason post, which is why I would imagine clidd would think you are scum.

[Chumbo]

I think it lacks explanation to place Rock at E-1, but I suppose that may be how they just play. I think that E-1 votes have to be good, because that puts a possible miselim in hammer range, which is bad.

I don't really see E-1 votes as something that has to have an awesome reason, but I do think you should announce when you put someone there.

But I'm really working under the assumption that clidd is maf so we'll see how that pans out.

Why would you work under this assumption? What would change in your eyes if clidd isn't mafia?

Yes, I can.

Did you read your role PM? I don't know what type of move this is.

The last person for the CC check is BM, but I think you are 80% cleared should he not CC you. 20% being somehow you got the odds right and we are in Cop 9. I will cry foul if you actually betted having Cop 9 as setup.

Personally I'd consider BM to have not cc'd by now. If he knows he's at E-2 he's had to have seen the claim or people talking about it. Not sure why he's still voting you though.

I'm getting a little bit worried about Lone now, he seems to just want to coast on by with an elimination joining both the rockhopper and BM wagons without saying much that wasn't just regurgitated from other players.
Also, clidd needs to learn patience.

[Chumbo]

Wait, what?

he still thinks clidd is mafia, look at what I said in my post I just made.

[Chumbo]

If that is the case, why not just go for clidd? How is going for his supposed scumbuddy a reasonable move?

[Chumbo]

I understand that, but why use clidd!scum as a basis for your current PoE?

[Chumbo]

But let's just not talk about that, ok?

he also says this in the next post

[Chumbo]

I can't say much, because I'm at work right now, but I think it might be safer to eliminate someone besides clidd. On the off chance we flip a roleblocker, it proves clidds claim

[Chumbo]

Back now, reading and I'll post what I think.

[Chumbo]

I'm caught up now. Most of the last 15 pages weren't much more than clidd, trendall, and ben arguing about whether clidd was scum or not, I don't know how you guys expect us to keep up.

Clidd: after you already were looking really scummy you've basically performed a hat trick in looking scummy over that period (last 15 pages). You've said something along the lines of "might as well eliminate me, I'm done with this", you talked about self-hammering, and also you used the words I'm scum. You say that what you are doing is pro-town, but it's definitely not. Statistically, it's likely that you are a doc, but I would think you could perform better than this easily. Egging on trendall isn't a good look. I'm not going to vote you because I think you might just be having a terrible game and if we manage to eliminate a roleblocker, it proves you are town.

reads coming once I look at some people's iso's

[Chumbo]

Chumbo over Lavar because I expect scum to be a little more cautious about putting someone at E-1.

In what way is saying I think it's a good idea to announce it worse than just putting someone at E-1 without announcing it. I've never been like "oh i better not vote yet, it would put him at E-1"

By your logic Ben should be a scum read since he always freaks out about it.

[Chumbo]

OK I agree we should go with LunarMartian.It was really difficult reading 15 pages took real long
I honestly don't think Clidd is mafia.Though he has been acting scummy.But he is almost confirmed town.So we should go with other scummy people.Most scummy is Lunar martian or at least thats what I think from his ISO.Also sorry Clidd for self protection post.I mean whats scummy in that.Newbie scum might have taken the bait and not targeted you.Right now PRs are as useful as vanilla townies.
UNVOTE: BattleMage
VOTE: LunarMartian

Why do you think is scummy about LunarMartian's ISO?
Hopefully you answer this before I post my reads

[Chumbo]

Being cautious about it doesn't make someone scum.
Putting someone at E-1 without announcing it seems too scummy to be scum. I don't expect scum!Lavar to do that since it only ruins the way people perceive his position and scum don't want that.

If you put someone at E-1 without announcing it, later you could just be like "oh, I didn't realize that was E-1". Which is why I disagree with you, I think scum would be more than willing to do this because if the next person doesn't pay attention to it they hammer.

[Chumbo]

But Lavar didn't say anything like that, did he?

Nobody hammered did they?

[Chumbo]

ok, I'll be on for a while

[Chumbo]

Do you see what I mean though?

[Chumbo]

It seems unnecessary for scum!him to risk it and ruin his image (he was thought to be pretty towny, this would be perceived poorly) for a very unlikely VI hammer.
I would also expect scum!him to come up with some excuse in case he did decide to take this route.

This is all getting off-topic now. I don't see Lavar as scum. I was trying to get you to realize the fault in your logic. Not announcing E-1 isn't too scummy to be scum and announcing it isn't scummy.

[Chumbo]

Chumbo

(that's me )

Trendall

(claimed cop, no reason to not believe him)

Ben

(Meta analysis [that he did] and general behavior makes me think strong-town, even though at one point I thought he was scum :thonk:)

LoneMarkhor

(I'm thinking newb-town, the mason thing was bad, but I can't really say I see any evidence of him realizing this)

LavarManos

(I'm honestly basing this off of pragdoid more than Lavar, his one-liners don't scream town!, but I don't really see anything with scum intention)
BM (not much to go off of and I still need to look closer, since he is experienced)

Clidd

(Suuuuuuper Scummy, but probably doc

)

LunarMartian

(I really hate to say this, but this is mostly gut, something just seems off between Jumble and Lunar)

Rock

(he seems scummy, but I think he may be playing somewhat to town meta, I don't like his AtE [also see previous reasons])

I'm willing to vote LunarMartian or Rock. I don't have stong scum reads right now but I'm confident with my town reads. I'd still like to see BM get caught up though.

VOTE: Lunar for now
E-2

[Chumbo]

LoneMarkhor is so town I'm willing to bet my soul on it

I agree

[Chumbo]

I can't post much right now (work), but BM has to be scum. Potential partners are [rock, lavar] maybe clidd. I feel like BM and lavar are distancing themselves to make it seem like they're not partners. No way does a red BM flip mean lavar is definitely town.
More later.

[Chumbo]

clidd could be scum if BM is scum? I'm doubting theories where clidd is scum...

I have to look into it still.

[Chumbo]

@ben: what is the significance of BM not unvoting clidd? I don't get that part.

[Chumbo]

But yeah, BM hammering like that screams scum to me. He said nothing about his reads or anything.
Then the conversation today makes it obvious. Saying Lone and Lunar has partner equity, when he just hammered lunar. Him saying we should massclaim (what would be the point). I don't think he's bothered catching up.

I think it's likely that rockhopper is his partner.
Lavar is my second choice, based on BM's vote on him.
clidd is very likely actually a doc, but it's not a certainty and I don't get why BM not removing his vote is significant. I'm pretty sure trendall was the only other person on clidd's wagon at the time and no one else was expressing a desire to eliminate clidd d1 after the claim. Ben voted him for a very short period but I think he was just losing his mind at the time.

Ben and Lone are very town.

[Chumbo]

If you go back to D1, you can see that BM found clidd really towny, but then didn't unvote and acted a little weird instead. BM's vote made clidd go to E-1, remember? I think that if the solve was {BM, clidd}, BM would panic unvote, because obviously he wouldn't want to get clidd to hammer range again.

Ok, that makes more sense now. I forgot he put clidd at E-1.

[Chumbo]

My thoughts haven't changed all that much. The vote on me early on could be trying to distract from a BM elim, then changing it to BM when he realizes everyone wants to eliminate BM today.

[Chumbo]

Are you having second thoughts about BM? I still think he's the safest bet right now.

[Chumbo]

I'm ready for a hammer, but let's see if clidd has anything he wants to say.

[Chumbo]

VOTE: Battle Mage

[Chumbo]

Yeah, Rockhopper is what I'm thinking too. Did anyone else take clidds advice and review other people's ISOs? Nothing really changed for me, but I'm curious to see if anything changed for you guys.

[Chumbo]

The plan changed if you haven't noticed. I think Lavar is definitely more towny than Chumbo, because I have seen the "scum quickhammers scum" happen before, but your D2 was just wack.

In what way was that a quickhammer?

[Chumbo]

And I do agree that we need a closer look at the other slots. For instance, all I know about Lavar is that he's going along with consensus yesterday and today without saying much. From his ISO, I have no idea what he thinks about any other slots other than rock.

Pedit: you called for the hammer.

[Chumbo]

I understand, but I didn't realize BM could selfhammer and deprive us of convo until Clidd pointed that out.

What exactly made you revote so quickly after realizing it?


@Lavar: What are your thoughts on the other people?

[Chumbo]

don't hammer please.

Got it

[Chumbo]

I've looked at everyone's ISO multiple times along with some old games of Lavar and Rock. I'm not exactly sure how to use meta like this, but things seem off. It's one or the other, I'm just not sure which.
So basically, nothings changed with my thoughts.
Things have gotten stagnant here.

[Chumbo]

VOTE: Rock
Hopefully this is it.

[Chumbo]

Nice

[Chumbo]

VOTE: LavarManos
Its gotta be Lavar. I've looked through again and I don't believe that Lone is scum.

[Chumbo]

I was the scum, sorry guys

[Chumbo]

No, lol. I tried really hard

[Chumbo]

Thanks everyone! I had a good time and hopefully you guys did too.

Also huge rips for Rock
I literally said chumbo don't hammer and then I was going to towncase rock cause he actually looked good in spots and then chumbo hammered. That's a fat L

I was literally just waiting for a good time to hammer, but I wanted you to say the elimination pool was {rock, lavar} instead of having me in there. That's why I didn't attack rock right away on d3.

[Chumbo]

Another piece of town-bait that I was trying to throw in was still being skeptical of clidd d2, knowing that BM would flip roleblocker. Not sure if that did anything though.

Pedit: Thanks Lone, I hope to play with you again in the future.

[Chumbo]

I would have had a lot harder time if not for the claiming. I actually thought Lavar was the doc because of this post:

You won't die on night 1

[Chumbo]

Chumbo played well too, gg.

Thanks, I appreciate it!

[Chumbo]

Chumbo...you absolute legend!!

I enjoyed watching this game from heaven more than actually being alive in it I think . Chumbo, great teammate, really enjoyed playing with you (and sorry again I sucked). But you did it, as I knew you would!

Thanks man!

Also, Borkjerfkin. I'm fine with the Scum PT being shared.