Newbie 2045: A Midwinter Night's Dream - End!

[safebet222]

VOTE: petapan

That avatar is gonna give me nightmares... Scary.

Seriously, looking forward to a fun game.

[safebet222]

unwnd's opening post is kinda yikes, might be their personality though

Yeah... I'm kind of put off by the following quotes...

Hello newcomers. I'm unwnd. I'm a wordy individual who enjoys looking at the inner complexities of the game.

I will try to keep my thoughts a bit more simple

but I am very excited to help/eliminate the scum

VOTE: Mr Turtle

Illwei, why did you squint your eyes? Do you think that I'm trying to get on your good side?

I'm going to play this a game a bit more from the armchair because IC behavior (before it was abolished) in these type of games is embedded in me. I don't gain much out of being right on newbies or simply solving the game for them

I mean it's kind of condescending, is that what you were getting at?

@unwnd- I'm guessing you weren't intending to come into the game like, "Eh... I think I'll play my 'B' game here so all you noobs can learn something..."

[safebet222]

VOTE: Petapan

That avatar is terrifying and I don't see myself changing my vote before the avatar is changed and therapy is complete. It might be a few years.

Why are you stealing my RVS line? I didn't think it was clever enough to copy.

[safebet222]

I didn't steal it because it was clever. I stole it because it's how I felt. In fact, you stole it from me pre-emptively.

I suppose I just don't like getting copied like that, even in RVS. I mean, especially when it was as awkward as your post was. Is being awkward in RVS common for newbie games? I have 3 games in my career in, 2 of them more than 2 years ago, and I subbed in to 2 of them. I don't remember the other being so awkward as this has been.

[safebet222]

do the different responses make one of them more suspicious to you?

I know this wasn't aimed at me but, gonna answer anyways...

It's been an awkward RVS in general, quiet's awkwardness and defensiveness doesn't raise any suspicions at all. In fact, I think a lot of what is commonly seen as townie behavior in mafia is pretty counter-intuitive to complete neophytes, including myself. So, I'm gonna lean newb town.

I'm not sure what to think about unwnd... (Not sure on the pronoun to use for you, unwnd) He/She/They seem to jump from wanting to teach newbs to scum hunt to low-key sussing quiet for considering an RVS vote on him/her/them. Raises some suspicions.

[safebet222]

UNVOTE: bbmolla
VOTE: quiet

This is obvious newb town or nervous scum.

To properly roleplay my naïveté, it feels only right and natrual to sheep for unwnd. @unwnd, please be my guiding hand, teach me the ways of killing scum

This bothers me because it comes off as a half ass buddying attempt. It's also meant to install humor or emotion into his opening post. Maybe it's because he's new and trying to break in with a good intro or maybe to try and get empathy which is a typical scum tactic.

It's day 1, I'm not sure anything will have too much meaning

This post is the acknowledgement that he has played enough to know what RVS is. That most of the votes and wagons on dp1 are typically just to build pressure and to try and form reads. Also that implies that more often than not, it's hard to get anything of value. He would especially carry this ideas as a new player because dp1 can often yield nothing. The framing of that implies a basic understanding of how DP1 is suppose to function

Everything after that post is really defensive and nervous. Again this could be newb town or nervous scum. Then intro comes off as fake to me and a way to try and connect with the players for empathy and the follow up is very defensive, especially after unwnd brought up valid questions regarding to him trying to justify a rvs which he acknowledged he understood the point of (by saying DP1 typically yields nothing)

I disagree. You are premising quiet's supposed scummy appeal for empathy based on knowledge he easily could have gleaned from the wiki or the Mod's opening posts. He comes off to me more like someone who is trying his best to learn. Is that why you're hedging with the either/or statement?

[safebet222]

Part of me wants to sus petapan for just asking questions, but It's early D1 and there's also...not much...else...to do...

Why? Isn't RQS an alternative to RVS? It's plenty valid way to get this game started. In fact...

UNVOTE: petapan

I'm not keeping my vote on someone I think asked the best question so far this game.

[safebet222]

I think understand your point now, Mikul. I still think its a natural reaction from newbtown to getting questioned by two experienced players by page 2. Defensive and awkwardly over explanatory.

[safebet222]

would claiming an alignment matter to you?

No, but the way that unwnd opened with something specifically not declaring a side, and then followed that up with basically "woot let's do some scumhunting" is-

idk.

Then again (I, fun fact, did not notice page two for a bit) quiet is quite performative too, so- idk.

unwnd was performative in a calm...something else...sorta way, and quiet was performative in a "this is a fun little bit here imma do it" sorta way.

do the different responses make one of them more suspicious to you?

@petapan... This one

[safebet222]

It was the question that best asked someone to consider an interaction and make a read based on what happened. I think its the best way to move the game along.

I'd really like you to share your thoughts on the interaction between unwnd and quiet.

[safebet222]

Oh but you're keepimg your reads to yourself... Forgot.

[safebet222]

I'm here everyone... really busy day between work and kids... will post later. In the meantime...

@BBMolla... is this vote cause I've been gone for almost 24 hours? I kind of feel that you're voting whoever has been away the longest.

[safebet222]

I'm here everyone... really busy day between work and kids... will post later. In the meantime...

@BBMolla... is this vote cause I've been gone for almost 24 hours? I kind of feel that you're voting whoever has been away the longest.

I'd be voting Turtle then

What have you done this game?

I was being serious BB... you surely aren't ever voting for a person who hasn't posted once and has been prodded and I believe I was the player that had been missing the longest at the time of your vote besides Turtle, as was Lunar. Nonetheless, it's a fair question. I have town read quiet and petapan and slightly sussed unwnd... besides that, not much. I've been busy.

[safebet222]

This might be the only post I'm gonna be able to get out for another 24, so this is where I'm at...

Town - In no particular order...

quiet - I thought his nervous and erratic reaction to getting questioned about his behavior so early leans newbtown.
petapan - I read peta's efforts as both attempting to move the game along and attempting to instill confidence in the newer players to follow their reads to their logical conclusions and act. +Town
BBmolla - I think BB just has a different way to get the game moving... I haven't done any meta dives on anyone, but if I'm to believe the thread, it seems to serve him well. I also think his question to me was fair... I haven't done much... lean town for now.
Illwei - I think they have been thoughtful and genuine in their responses so far, I also agree with the statement behind their recent vote, I just don't think there's anything necessarily scummy about reacting adversely to the way BB is playing.
Lunar - Lunar has been pretty awkward and I tend to see that as newbtown...

Scum -

Mikul - Slight scum read on Mikul as I think his interaction with me about the quiet/unwnd interactions was hedging his bets, as peta pointed out. And that is pretty much all its done during the game.

unwnd - He's obviously pinging me with what I perceive as a condescending attitude... it strikes me as interesting that he only has one scum read and 3 town reads with a fistfull of nulls (as BB pointed out), the BB scum read is disingenuous... In my little experience, BB's method is common around this site, I would imagine that unwnd knows this too, and unwnd's play overall pings me as an attempt at being a powerwolf.

VOTE: unwnd

I am usually able to read the thread throughout the day and may be able to sneak in a response here and there... but definitely will be able to post around this same time tomorrow.

[safebet222]

Lunar - Lunar has been pretty awkward and I tend to see that as newbtown...

why's awkwardness a newbie town-tell for you, exactly? why can't it come from scum as well?

I don't think it can come exclusively from newbtown, I think it tends to... I think newbscum tend to be reluctant to show awkwardness in an over-abundance of caution. Like everything else in Mafia, its player dependent and Lunar has been a bit lurky so I revert to default.

[safebet222]

I think those three are town because I can walk through their thought process and follow it. It makes sense and it feels like its coming from the same perspective as me. Is that wrong?

For me, it is a false tell, or at least it hasn't served me very well in the games I've played. Scum are just as capable of producing logical arguments.

[safebet222]

Still catching up... Give me a little bit.

[safebet222]

This, combined with my metadive from before, and this gem of a post

UNVOTE:
lunar vote was just for reactions and I'm relatively satisfied

makes me no longer want to vote BB
UNVOTE: BBmolla[\unvote]

I don't understand what was so great about this take... I thought it is pretty typical of players who play like this and should be expected by someone doing a meta dive of any kind.

[safebet222]

I..disagree? I don't really feel like Lunar gave much of a reaction at all. I'm tracking backwards here, but nothing to me stood out in terms of what BBMolla was supposedly looking for.

When I voted on them originally, I thought the reason (lack thereof) BBmola put a vote on Lunar was scummy, and generally was suspicious of their posting style. The post I made a note of + my metaskim + peta's testimonial + more recent interactions indicated to me that my reasons for voting didn't hold anymore. Maybe there are other reasons to vote on BB, but when I see them, I'll vote then.

Thinking about it, I realize that I don't read BB as town, just not scummy anymore. Given that I do read some other people towny (hi, Illwei), maybe keeping a vote on someone I read as null is better than unvoting.

Quiet is moving down in my town read list for this... The waffling and reconsideration seem fabricated.

[safebet222]

unwnd - He's obviously pinging me with what I perceive as a condescending attitude... it strikes me as interesting that he only has one scum read and 3 town reads with a

fistfull of nulls (as BB pointed out)

, the BB scum read is disingenuous... In my little experience,

BB's method is common around this site

, I would imagine that unwnd knows this too, and unwnd's play overall pings me as an attempt at being a powerwolf.

First bolded: I admit my read-list had a bit of nulls, but I don't understand where you see discrepancy? I normally wouldn't post something like that this early, but I wanted others to engage my thoughts directly.

Second bolded: I refer to the argument I presented before in that..what's stopping BBMolla from just faking it? You're saying that his method is common but so too is that method being scum. You've referred to my own behavior being powerwolf but I think that term can be stretched out pretty far. I could make the argument that BBMolla is playing powerwolf by the way he is interacting with newbies, but I don't want to make this into circular logic.

1st: Your BB read is disingenuous, I think you understand exactly what BB's style is and that its effective regardless of alignment. Also, its interesting that you're scum hunting but null read half the field...

2nd: By your own admission, this is wifom. So why is BB not also worthy of status in your null pile?

This is the discrepancy.

[safebet222]

what do you think of mikul's massive string of posts, safebet?

This piqued my interest because it seems like he back pedaling a bit after you pushed back on his reactions to your posts... not sure that its AI or anything, just interesting and may be important later...

Okay caught up. Peta also just did a 180 after a little pressure. That also sticks out to me

pardon? i don't believe i've been pressured at all, let alone reversed on a read because of it.

Pressure is a lose term. I believe molla pointed out that you hadn't been offering reads

I noticed this as well. And even said please give your reads.

I think your response was. Give me a damn minute or something.

Directly after that you started going in pretty hard where as before you were being very passive. As I mentioned. It could be go probe new players or it could be because you didn't want to keep not offering reads and get called on it harder

Also to confess the 2 scum reads are pretty weak. It is dp1. Lunar in his revote pegged me as noob but something about his responses and posting patterns seems like he's trying to copy how a townie should act

Read quiet as scum for much the same.

Posts like this one...

@peta. It depends. Not giving reads could look bad to experienced players or people that are familiar with mafia. If you hedge doing that with "I want to ask players and show them how to develop reads" , it doesn't look scummy. It looks like your playing to the goal of a begginer game (to noobs at least). You are being townread for this by some of them if I recall.

That

1) can be genuine and you are town wanting to help
2) can be malicious and scum distancing himself from being committal. The less you commit, the less there is to look back on as flips happen.

---

Re: the second part

I generally like this response as I agree with it. The more you interact with and play with people, the harder it is to read them for a variety of reasons. Specifically because (as you said) you start to realize layers of personality and playstyle

They just smack of WIFOM that confuses newbtown toward a wagon that is a miselim... That isn't to say that mentioning it is bad, you should be cognizant that many of these reads may go either way, but repeating this fact over and over is more hedging his bets to stay safe in case there is a flip...

Post 191 is more of the same... as soon as he's asked to defend his read he slides back into this hedging so he can say if quiet happens to flip green, "I did say it was a 60/40 shot".

So, in short, it isn't changing my read so far of him... still leaning scum.

[safebet222]

a totally unrelated question
unwnd, found your thread on town meta/hyperposting. Thought it was interesting, and seems to inform maybe the reason you joined this game?

Has my posting been hyperposting? I’ve been super jazzed to play, so I’ve been jumping in a lot, but reading over your thread plus some of the responses (safebet, lunar, mr turtle) talking about the challenges of catching up, maybe you are on to something.

I’m curious if you think I should be sitting back more. Open to anyone else’s thoughts on that too, just found it interesting.

I also recognize the irony of posting to ask if I’m posting too much.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me its been a result of RL. The last several days have been simply busy so less Mafia for me. That's why I've been posting in mini bursts. I have read parts of that same thread, too. It's been an interesting read

[safebet222]

I don't understand what was so great about this take... I thought it is pretty typical of players who play like this and should be expected by someone doing a meta dive of any kind.

That's my whole point. I didn't know he played like this before the metadive. I didn't understand and thought his pattern of posting and his vote on Lunar was scummy before I did the metadive, before he posted explaining it, and before other people confirmed this was his playstyle. How am I supposed to know what's typical of players who play like this....before I play with them and before I dive on them, which is when I voted?

Before I knew that, I was suspicious of him for it.

Now I know it, which means my reasons for voting him originally were provably wrong. He went from scum to null for me.

Is it better to keep vote on a null, given that I have some town reads? Or better to unvote after your original reason for voting is provably wrong? That's my waffling question.

You change of heart about BB isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how you inflated the importance of that post by calling it a "gem." Just struck me as strange. And it was the tone of the other post that I read as scummy, it wasn't necessarily the action itself. I felt it was fabricated.

[safebet222]

They just smack of WIFOM that confuses newbtown toward a wagon that is a miselim... That isn't to say that mentioning it is bad, you should be cognizant that many of these reads may go either way, but repeating this fact over and over is more hedging his bets to stay safe in case there is a flip...

Post 191 is more of the same... as soon as he's asked to defend his read he slides back into this hedging so he can say if quiet happens to flip green, "I did say it was a 60/40 shot".

So, in short, it isn't changing my read so far of him... still leaning scum.

hedging just seems to be a part of his posting style. but on a gut level, i feel like he is town. i don't have the words or the patience to go into detail right now, though. i feel that you are town, as well.

Understood.

[safebet222]

Spoiler:

Quiet

28 - 31 - These are the posts that bothered me before

To properly roleplay my naïveté,

it feels only right and natrual to sheep for unwnd. @unwnd, please be my guiding hand, teach me the ways of killing scum.

In the end, I decided that I would commit to the role, and really embrace my inner sheep. @unwnd, I need you to come back and teach me fast, so I can make sure to vote for the right person today.

What's the GTO strategy here? We talkin mixed equilibriums? What's the vibe?

This entire post pings me as fake and forced


------

going to stop for a second to drive home this fishing for sympathy point, i was making. Here are ones that stick out to me

in fact, a total newbie. There's not much I can do on my first post to be town indicative, afaik, so why not pick the most fun thing and go with it.

I think I'm having a good amount of fun, but there's also the sad reality that I'm decently awkward as a person.

Quick Newbie Reads:

but I could be getting pocketed over that, and y'all experienced people make me paranoid.

Also hi Mr. Turtle, what is going on in your life? Am very excited for a (sort of kind of) 3rd party opinion on everything that's gone down so far. I'll be eagerly and patiently waiting .

The posting pattern that he starts with is trying to say he is a newb, and that he wants to be led to victory. Or that he has "newbie" reads and he makes sure to point this out. Reading back on this I think he has more experience that he is letting on. I actually think the "new player" thing is almost either for sure a reaction test or way to garner town cred. He may have not played mafia, but I'm sure he's familiar with it. He's to familiar with how the game functions and the intricacies of it.


------

37 - This read seems forced af. Like he's looking for a reason to offer a read. The reasoning behind the read is even more weird
44 - Pointing out that he is new and nervous. This in iso makes me really question this. He is really quick to point out how new he is. Mentioned this above, and I think he has more experience or is more familiar with this than he is letting on. The more I read this the more I think it's more scummy than town. I def do not read this as "noob town" as much in iso
68 - This is playing up other peoples mafia experience and downplaying himself yet again. This is habitual at this point
82 - offers read and again, says his "newbie list"

to point out who he is not interacting with up to this point.

He voted Molla
Went straight into cuddling with unwnd
Has engaged with peta
has engaged with safe bet
has engaged with il


There has almost been a complete separation from lunar , even reading past this. There is like no interaction there. He has asked about lunar and engaged in conversation about him, and said he could put his vote there at a point but never really engaged with him directly about why he is scum reading him.

Pedit : he did put a vote on him but still limited engagement with him directly




got to here and was going to post more but just got lost in cyberpunk. I think after this, he stopped doing a lot of what was bothering me and toned it down. Will glance over the rest tomorrow morning at work and see if its worth mentioning but most of the stuff i noticed ended there

I don't know mikul... People do this all the time IRL... "I'm not an expert but..." or "I don't know what I'm doing but I'll try..." or "I'm new so forgive me if I'm doing this wrong..." "There are more experienced people here so tell me if I'm wrong." It's really very common. It denotes a lack of confidence not an intention to mislead.

You are also premising your case on the fact you believe he is more experienced than he says he is. So what makes it likely that he is lying about his experience level? Is there some proof or is it because it confirms what you'd like us to believe about him?

[safebet222]

Sure...

1st: Your BB read is disingenuous, I think you understand exactly what BB's style is and that its

effective regardless of alignment.

Also, its interesting that you're scum hunting but null read half the field...

Doesn't that mean it could come from scum? I've given my reasons as to why I believe this.

Of course it could... Almost everything in this game

could

come from scum. That's not my point, my point is your case is disingenuous... it doesn't make sense with everything else you've posted. And I made my reasoning clear.

I'm off to sleep. The kiddos get up early. Good night!

[safebet222]

Sure...

1st: Your BB read is disingenuous, I think you understand exactly what BB's style is and that its

effective regardless of alignment.

Also, its interesting that you're scum hunting but null read half the field...

Doesn't that mean it could come from scum? I've given my reasons as to why I believe this.

Of course it could... Almost everything in this game

could

come from scum. That's not my point, my point is your case is disingenuous... it doesn't make sense with everything else you've posted. And I made my reasoning clear.

I'm off to sleep. The kiddos get up early. Good night!

I've refuted your stance actually and given counter-evidence as to why it isn't. Did you read what I've been saying up until this point?

You're gonna have to spell that out for me... I read but I don't see where I've been refuted..

[safebet222]

Actually, trying to say 'read my old posts' is kinda a self-defeating argument in itself. I will say however that proceeding to call my stance disingenuous due to what I would deem to be prior behavior is a bit lazy on your end. Where does scummy and disagreement overlap? Right now I don't necessarily see your full perspective, and I don't know if you're willing to give it.

We could go on and on about 'what if's' but eventually people will have to pick a side which in turn gives me a broader read on everyone else so I welcome this.

It's kind of ironic that you say the underlined yet you're still null reading half the field... And you're scum read is based on a what if.

[safebet222]

I agree with BB here... we have 8 days and we need to sort Turtle. This is more important that pushing unwnd...

UNVOTE: unwnd

VOTE: Turtle

[safebet222]

You have no idea how long that took me to post.

[safebet222]

mikul, can you explain to me exactly why you think quiet is not being forthcoming about his experience? You said my arguments about you are bull, but I really just don't understand what makes you think that about quiet.

[safebet222]

Oh... ok. Can you still explain? It'd help me quite a bit.

[safebet222]

Thanks. I'm kinda laughing cause bull fits pretty well as well... null is the mafia version of BS most of the time, isn't it?

[safebet222]

.
what i'm thinking now is that mr turtle looks unlikely to have a partner, and him being lost looks more symptomatic of a

clueless townie

who's on their own. at the least, he doesn't have an experienced partner, and given the way he accumulated votes so quickly for not a whole lot i'd say not many people make sense as a partner for him.

Have you ever played discord chat mafia?

If he's talking about the mafia.gg site, they are far from clueless. He needs to learn the meta at this site but if he can hang there he's not clueless.

At any rate.. Turtle is just always a policy elim, right? Almost always flipping town.

[safebet222]

I have no clue how to evaluate the first idea you have... I tend to agree with the second idea.

I have been trying to keep up with everything that has gone down in the last 24 hours or so, but it has been difficult.

[safebet222]

Quiet has gone down in my opinion... But not enough to want to push him.

I don't feel like pushing unwnd anymore. It just doesn't feel right anymore.

I don't understand why illwei is not getting questioned for his low activity and his vote that hasn't moved once, but pushing there also feels gross.

We're always just pushing Lunar here, right?

VOTE: Lunar

That is E-1.

[safebet222]

BBMolla, was Lunar's (lack) of reaction a reaction to you? He seemed to completely ignore your pressure here.

Am trying to answer BBMola’s question about scum partners in a world where Lunar flips scum.

Would scum unwnd ever defend like this?

There is a theory called the chainsaw defense... I am unsure how much of a tell it is. If I had to guess, figuring out whether it comes from scum or not is player dependent... Maybe someone else can attest to whether or not its a reliable tell. We had a discussion on it in the previous game I played byt I don't think any good insight came from it.

[safebet222]

My reason for coming off unwnd is more personal. Last game I did my best to try to convince folks of my 2 scum reads D2, D3 and D4 (the damn game went 5 days) and both reads were wrong... Finally when I had a great read on the eventual scum in F3, my other townie scum read me too hard to get her to vote the other guy. So, I simply have cold feet about unwnd, I just think I need to let others lead right now... plus his tone changed... It's just all wrong.

[safebet222]

Not to single the newbies out, but it's very interesting in the way you guys have been having discourse right now. A lot of wordy analysis but I also remain a bit unsettled about it. Mr. Turtle's #385 highlights this opinion, where I feel like a majority of the content is made with uncertainty. A lot of "I don't know" or "It could be this way" or

even posing two possible scenarios and highlighting them both in your posts.

I know this is likely coming from inexperience but you don't have to tell everyone what you're thinking, especially if you don't know.

If you don't know something: Ask. Ask your other players if you can't understand their intentions. Or..make a statement that asserts a position.

You don't always need to be shamefully honest and say things like "Well I don't know" and "Mostly gut". I would attribute that behavior as a waffling scum who is just exaggerating a townie mindset.

This is kind of ironic coming from you, man. I don't disagree with it, but you've got on my case for not considering the possibilities of scum!BB in my posts.

[safebet222]

Spoiler:

Not to single the newbies out, but it's very interesting in the way you guys have been having discourse right now. A lot of wordy analysis but I also remain a bit unsettled about it. Mr. Turtle's #385 highlights this opinion, where I feel like a majority of the content is made with uncertainty. A lot of "I don't know" or "It could be this way" or

even posing two possible scenarios and highlighting them both in your posts.

I know this is likely coming from inexperience but you don't have to tell everyone what you're thinking, especially if you don't know.

If you don't know something: Ask. Ask your other players if you can't understand their intentions. Or..make a statement that asserts a position.

You don't always need to be shamefully honest and say things like "Well I don't know" and "Mostly gut". I would attribute that behavior as a waffling scum who is just exaggerating a townie mindset.

This is kind of ironic coming from you, man. I don't disagree with it, but you've got on my case for not considering the possibilities of scum!BB in my posts.

I wanted more out of you, so I maintained my original position to see how you (and others) would react

That's a convenient answer but fine... I can play nice for now.

[safebet222]

So mikul, you're saying that their opening salvo was scum theater? IDK about that.

[safebet222]

I'd be lying if I told you I understood the first part of what you said...lol

[safebet222]

I can post more thorough thoughts when I am off of mobile but unless something with Lunar changes dramatically today, I still want to flip them and sort out everything else tomorrow.

[safebet222]

Ok.. so my 5-yr old finished watching Ryan's Toy Review sooner than I thought.

I understand the desire to go after Illwei for his 3-scum post, but I just think its too likely to be a simple mistake. The argument unwnd made in post 495 makes more sense to me as a scum!illwei argument, together with the fact that he has been on one vote the entire day... I just think it might be easier to sort him after we have more information from a flip.

I think I mentioned that Quiet has gone down in my list as a townread. There is plenty I don't like about his tone and some of his line of questioning and word phrasing that I haven't liked at all, especially since the BB claim. But my mind just goes back to post 258:

a totally unrelated question
unwnd, found your thread on town meta/hyperposting.

Thought it was interesting, and seems to inform maybe the reason you joined this game?

Has my posting been hyperposting?

I’ve been super jazzed to play, so I’ve been jumping in a lot, but reading over your thread plus some of the responses (safebet, lunar, mr turtle) talking about the challenges of catching up, maybe you are on to something.

I’m curious if you think I should be sitting back more. Open to anyone else’s thoughts on that too, just found it interesting.

I also recognize the irony of posting to ask if I’m posting too much.

Deosn't a scum!quiet just keep that to himself and test the site meta to get townread? I think so...

Turtle, like I said before is just a policy elim in my mind,

Lunar, on the other hand, is almost like all the bad parts put together, low poster, only a singular vote outside RVS, which he is still pushing and like 3 town reads... almost like he's placed his vote on one guy and is going to ride it to avoid reading the other half of the field. Perhaps he null reads half the field, too.

@Lunar... What are your thoughts on peta, turtle, mikul and myself? Why have you not given your reads on us?

[safebet222]

Hard for me to speculate next steps. I'd have been focusing a lot more today on making sure my voting patterns/suses/etc looked correct for tomorrow

; that's something that right now I havn't thought about whatsoever, but day2 I'm sure I'll be doing a lot of research on to try and determine what info we got from day1's votes and the flip.

I don't like this at all... This is pretty scummy imo.

[safebet222]

Otherwise i'll give my thoughts next day cycle which also works for me, unless you're the one who thinks something bad will happen off of Lunar's death.

Something i think is off about quiet, is they talk about their intent to hammer Lunar, but tag me in a way that makes me feel like they know Lunar is going to flip village, and are trying to push the blame off of them once the flip happens.

@peta what about me feels unnatural?

specifically the bit quiet quoted where with two different wagons you made a post that was to the effect of "it's...so tempting...to put it at E-1..."

TBH... It pings me more that quiet picked that out than ot did that Illwei repeated that thought in 2 different situations.

[safebet222]

Btw... I'm just going through some of the things that pinged me about quiet that I alluded to in my other post.

[safebet222]

he picked that out as a reason to call him town, though

What's the difference? I think the fact that he's tuned into that is questionable.

[safebet222]

Noted, quiet.

[safebet222]

@mikul... What about quiet's 258 on hyperposting. Don't you think he just keeps that under wraps as scum?

[safebet222]

I'm not defending you, i'm sorting you. Illwei, you are either 100% scum and made a fake forget the setup play, or 100% town and genuinly forgot, and nothing in between. I am saying that I give zero credence to unwnd's theroy that you as scum could have genuenly forgot, and think that you can be sorted on the basis of that decision alone. I'm way more attached to my take on how polarized you now are than my take that you fall on the Innocent side of those two poles. I see no way that forgetting isn't alignment indicative, which simplifies my read on you considerably.

This feels like a poker read to me, when someone makes a massive overbet on the turn. They've just polarized their range. I can eliminate a ton of hands that it would never make sense to make that play with; suddenly, they are either bluffing, or they have a monster, and you get to start going back through the rest of the hand history to figure out which combos are more likely. I strongly disagree that I'm reading too far into this, and honestly, I'm probably more attached to this point than anything else I've posted this entire day.

I'll drop the point, but I guess just hard disagree with un here.

And trying to figure out which way it is, is classic wifom.

[safebet222]

Well, have fun with that, quiet. I think you're better off trying figure out if hes town or scum another way.

[safebet222]

I completely agree with unwnd about the course this gamenhas taken over the last 36-48 hours. Gamesolving on D1 is almost never fruitful.

Unwnd...I hope you figure out whats going on soon. If I could offer some advice, if you can control it, this time around try not to have a lease that ends on Jan. 1. Makes life's curveballs much easier to handle.

As far as where I stand, I am with BB... I thought Lunar was a fine flip. We'll have to see whats up with Turtle but a policy flip would be an okay choice. The three folks I have no interest in flipping are peta, mikul and obviously BB. The rest are up for debate.

@quiet, can we talk about who you'd like to flip as opposed to why illwei is town? That'd help... It gets lost in your wall posts.

With the holiday coming, I'll soon be V/LA as well. I'd like to cut the circular conversations and consolidate so we can get possible cc's out there before deadline looms.

[safebet222]

Spoiler:

I think occam's razor suggests that Illwei, as scum, did not premeditate their post about the setup and instead said something that would look townie. In the instance of them actually being town? Then that nature would actually be true and thus the explanation would still apply.

If you follow occam's razor, the scum thing makes no sense.

two options:

1) I am scum. I felt scared and so made a post purposefully miscounting the W:V ratio to appear like I am a villager who miscounted.
2) I am a villager who miscounted.

Which is the simplest, I ask?

I really dislike this logic. Neither one requires a complex chain of reasoning. Obviously the Town scenario is more likely since most people are Town, but its not like the scenario where Illwei is Mafia requires a lot of assumptions or anything.

How does it change your reads? Care to contribute?

[safebet222]

Id rather turtle get replaced

Lunar I think is scum at this point

Well, you see where my vote is at...

[safebet222]

@mod... I will be V/LA for the next 48 hours.

Have a very Merry Christmas everyone. See you all on Saturday.

[safebet222]

I'm back... I see I didn't miss a whole lot. Looks like we have competing wagons again. Lunar's responses are underwhelming and pushing BB is just bad. Norfolk's responses make no sense... He spends more time making a case for quiet but then sticks his vote on Mikul? His case for Mikul is horrible. Calls him out for TMI??? Ouch.

[safebet222]

@Mikul... I might be jumping the gun a bit but isn't time to choose a viable wagon?

[safebet222]

No CC from me...

UNVOTE: Lunar

I need to reread this...

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Why the Norfolk spot so low priority? Cause of the LHF factor? His reason for voting you was horrible.

[safebet222]

@mikul... What about quiet's 258 on hyperposting. Don't you think he just keeps that under wraps as scum?

Mikul... you missed this before... can you give me some thoughts... I'm between putting Norfolk at E-1 and joining you on quiet... I need this answered. Not sure how to think about that.

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I really don't like Norfolk Boy... but again... the slot is just flipping green isn't it?

VOTE: quiet

I'll compromise on Norfolk if it comes down to it.

I really don't have enough experience to have a gut feeling about the Lunar claim, or the BB claim for that matter, I think I have to take them at face value for now

Not voting Mikul or Peta

Out of the 4 that are left...

Illwei is the VI at this point... I wish it were that easy to catch scum, but I just don't think we're gonna get a slip like that...
I don't really want to vote Unwnd... not that I think you're reasoning is off mikul, just that quiet is a better bet imo.
Norfolk/turtle slot is lhf that flips green most of the time.

[safebet222]

Wow... Waking up to a hammer is strange... Almost anti-climatic. Fell asleep early last night.

I do want to say that I, like quiet, am also having a good deal of fun. Great stuff so far.

[safebet222]

My first thought is that I kind of agree with BB that someone is scum on Norfolk's wagon since he flipped green... post 767 and that Illwei's reasoning for voting Norfolk is weird. That slot is upsetting to me...

@peta: Can you explain why you think it unlikely that scum partners buss D1? Also, is there any positive to flipping Lunar, even if he flips town doc? Cause I think there's a better than 1 in 6 shot FMPOV he flips red.

I have to reconsider my quiet read. At the least, if he is scum, I don't think he is partnered with an experienced player.

Mikul... I think you are just way off on that Occam's Razor thing. I think it's obvious why if we are in a goon/goon setup why they would know exactly what BB was based on what he said. BB just plain f'd up. I was hoping they didn't notice.

Right now looking at illwei slot hard.

[safebet222]

Yeah... that is exactly what I would expect newbscum to feel, afraid to hammer.

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@peta: Can you explain why you think it unlikely that scum partners buss D1? Also, is there any positive to flipping Lunar, even if he flips town doc? Cause I think there's a better than 1 in 6 shot FMPOV he flips red.

depends on the situation, but i wouldn't expect them to if they didn't have to, and none of the people who voted quiet looks like a bus vote, really. why is lunar likely to flip red in your opinion?

Not very likely... just more likely than a random shot. More than 1 in 6 and less than 1 in 2. I ask because one the one hand you say that you say you aren't voting him and then on the other you say his presence complicates things for town. I'm trying to figure out if entertaining a Lunar push is worth it or not and I am not convinced that there is zero value in it.

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mostly the problem is just i don't know what lunar is doing, and they've aleady been resistant toward any sort of open communication. but yo do the though exercise for me right now: if lunar is scum, who is their partner? that needs to be answered before a vote there can be considered

what's your read on mikul right now?

Mikul could be. He never voted Lunar and despite threatening to, he never really did push him very hard. And then he went back on quiet and used the lunar wagon as a quasi VCA support. Could be construed as a light defense of lunar.

With his opening vote, Mikul has had really only one agenda. Push quiet. That is not a good look.

[safebet222]

But your point is well taken... its hard to find good Lunar partner candidates.

[safebet222]

I think I trust you, Illwei, Mikul, and unwnd. I'd love to see quiet flip today, but I am fine with going safebet first too.

@lunar, can you expand a bit on your reads on safebet, peta, and unwnd?

Yes. Safebet is someone I have as basically blank. I don't think they've done much of anything, nothing that really stands out to me anyway. But I'm fairly confident in thinking everyone else is Town, so that leaves safebet. Peta is going out of his way to interact with people and engage with people and try to understand their thinking. I think that's probably hard to do convincingly as Mafia. Unwnd was a gut feeling I had, but looking back trying to justify it made me question it. More on that in my next post.

Last time I checked there were two scum... how is it possible to see everyone else but me as scum? Something is wrong with your reads, there.

[safebet222]

I think I trust you, Illwei, Mikul, and unwnd. I'd love to see quiet flip today, but I am fine with going safebet first too.

@lunar, can you expand a bit on your reads on safebet, peta, and unwnd?

Yes. Safebet is someone I have as basically blank. I don't think they've done much of anything, nothing that really stands out to me anyway. But I'm fairly confident in thinking everyone else is Town, so that leaves safebet. Peta is going out of his way to interact with people and engage with people and try to understand their thinking. I think that's probably hard to do convincingly as Mafia. Unwnd was a gut feeling I had, but looking back trying to justify it made me question it. More on that in my next post.

Last time I checked there were two scum... how is it possible to see everyone else but me as town? Something is wrong with your reads, there.

Sorry fixed my post.

[safebet222]

If we even go toward lunar, i'm going to quickly become the most uncooperative towny you ever met

For lunar to fake claim all of the following have to be true

1) They were 100 percent sure bb was a pr
2) They were sure he was actually claiming that role, and was not baiting a night kill
3) They were not just sure he was cop, they were sure he was a cop or tracket

The reason we know this is because the fake claim was doctor. Scum could have claimed anything, literally anything in a situation where they were getting lynched if he was going to get lynched anyway. The doctor claims tells us two things (at the point all this happened). He is actually doctor, they correctly identified what colum we were in and made the right call for a role that lined up with a cop claim that they were not even sure was accurate.

It's way more likely lunar is town and the people on his wagon early on, along with the norfolk wagon are scum

I hate the threat... its almost like you're baiting us to go there. Eliminating a perfectly plausible scenario and just throwing up your hands that you'll take the "L" if it is the case is not very town friendly. I get the point of view of not wanting to push there today... but you have to at least consider it at some point if he doesn't die, right?

[safebet222]

I think I trust you, Illwei, Mikul, and unwnd. I'd love to see quiet flip today, but I am fine with going safebet first too.

@lunar, can you expand a bit on your reads on safebet, peta, and unwnd?

Yes. Safebet is someone I have as basically blank. I don't think they've done much of anything, nothing that really stands out to me anyway. But I'm fairly confident in thinking everyone else is Town, so that leaves safebet. Peta is going out of his way to interact with people and engage with people and try to understand their thinking. I think that's probably hard to do convincingly as Mafia. Unwnd was a gut feeling I had, but looking back trying to justify it made me question it. More on that in my next post.

Last time I checked there were two scum... how is it possible to see everyone else but me as town? Something is wrong with your reads, there.

Sorry fixed my post.

I also think quiet is Mafia.

So how do you figure quiet and I are scum together? I wanted him over Norfolk at the end of the day yesterday.

[safebet222]

unwnd + safebet

or

quiet + petapan

my psychic hero pre-read solves.

That means its probably exactly BM and mikul... lol.

[safebet222]

@safebet , it's possible I would consider but very very unlikely. There are no results so the way in which he claimed and everything around it won't change. Barring a scum slip or something extra ordinary I can't see myself changing. Just to much had to happen during that pressure for him to be able to identify and claim doc as scum. It's possible. I just don't see it

Eh... I don't want to argue about this anymore... we'll see how things shake out. But in the unlikely event we end up flipping him and he flips red, you're next on the chopping block.

[safebet222]

@ peta

Okay I feel like this has to be discussed as it is required to explain what I'm thinking.

1) he's vanilla baiting
2) he's claiming a PR to get out of pressure

What is relevant is the fact mafia star the game knowing what collum we start in but not what row. If he's scum he has an idea of what is safe / not safe to claim. By the time town has figured that out , he's bought himself a lot of time and can go 1 on 1 with another pr

Why I think it's relevant to force a claim. He implied thinks there is a doctor. Only can be cop or tracker. I want him to claim because let's say there is a mason. We know he's lying.

I feel like any ringer would pick up on this. So there is no reason not to force a hard claim even if he is town because he's already heavily narrowed down the claim.

I lied. You practically gave scum the play ages before we forced Lunar to claim. The fake claim is definitely in play and you're scummy for changing your reasoning on it. The tunnel on quiet is not good either. I think he town told at the beginning of today.

VOTE: mikul

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@ peta

Okay I feel like this has to be discussed as it is required to explain what I'm thinking.

1) he's vanilla baiting
2) he's claiming a PR to get out of pressure

What is relevant is the fact mafia star the game knowing what collum we start in but not what row.

If he's scum he has an idea of what is safe / not safe to claim.

By the time town has figured that out , he's bought himself a lot of time and can go 1 on 1 with another pr

Why I think it's relevant to force a claim. He implied thinks there is a doctor. Only can be cop or tracker. I want him to claim because let's say there is a mason. We know he's lying.

I feel like any ringer would pick up on this. So there is no reason not to force a hard claim even if he is town

because he's already heavily narrowed down the claim.

With BB as cop. It makes since to me that we are in the first collum. Regardless of my reasoning and posting what I thought bb was. It's just as likely he was fake claiming, or vanilla trying to bait a nk. For lunar to be scum.

He has to be 100 percent sure bb is telling the truth that he is a pr , and what pr he is to be able to safely identify doc as a claim.

The underlined lay out pretty well what the change in your reasoning is. Yesterday you claimed that a scum!BB would be safe to claim or not claim based on his informed position but you're not willing to allow that same possibility for a scum!Lunar today.

[safebet222]

Mikul... entertain me for a minute. Assume Lunar is scum in a goon/goon setup. BB claims PR and that he will be protected. Look at column C... what is the only possibility? I don't think its rocket science to figure that out. The only risk is if BB is telling the truth or not. But once Lunar goes to E-1, what does he have to lose?

Also, it is interesting that you pushed for the hard claim D1 and the fact that there wasn't one is the reason you hard defend Lunar.

So, let's ask why you would push for the BB claim D1.

You could be forthcoming and really thought that the hard claim was good for town because of the possibility BB was fakeclaiming. I find that hard to believe because BB wasn't ever really in danger of being elimm'd. Why would scum go through the trouble of fakeclaiming on E-3? Doesn't make sense. Also doesn't make sense that you thought it was good for town if you then argue that the fact there wasn't a hard claim is the reason that you're not considering a Lunar fakeclaim.

It could also be that you could be scum and you were looking for information for the future play for you or your scum partner.

The last possibility is that you are town and you are wrong about this whole thing, but I take you as much better than that at this game.

[safebet222]

i think he's likely a player who gets falsely suspected a lot and he probably just gets killed overnight

I agree with not voting them today, but I don’t think they get killed a lot.

The rb can just rb them every night, and force town to decide. The doc just becomes another vanilla town that can’t do anything-which neatly masks the goon play.

From my perspective, I think I need to scumhunt within peta, safe, unwnd. Illwei maybe, but I think I’d like to focus on the first three. Mikul is clear in my eyes.

@peta oof, my bad, lie more, got it.

The upper emphasis followed by the lower emphasis, from my understanding, just is not coming from scum, ever. Scum would keep that under wraps then never admit that he should lie more.

[safebet222]

Out of game context... I sincerely hope everyone has a wonderful New Year and that all of your goals and wishes come true in 2021.

@mod I will be V/LA until Jan 2nd at this same time, 48 hours...

acknowledged! ~f

[safebet222]

So... I'm on V/LA right now... I'd really appreciate not getting hammered until I have a chance to figure out why all of a sudden I have 3 votes on me and respond. I've been able to read the thread a bit but haven't had the chance to really understand whats going on other than counting the votes. An initial thought is that I find the wagon pretty opportunistic... a few of you mention me as a POE choice and then he waltzes in and says nah, lets get Safebet out of here... I'm surprised mikul hasn't just claimed intent already... At least give me until my V/LA is over to respond.

[safebet222]

He being Battle Mage... it is kind of impressive actually.

[safebet222]

No I don't, tbh. I reread D1 right before I went on V/LA and the 3 scum thing is just not happening as a slip. I think you really think I'm scum. It is impressive the manner at which you walked into the game and basically everyone just fell at your feet.

[safebet222]

I think the quick-wagon probably means if you're scum, you're being bussed for sure. if you're town, there's obviously scum on your wagon (not me though!)

either way, I don't see a great need to drag the day out. it's basically you today and if you flip town, a decision between quiet and petapan tomorrow.

if you do come back and want to live, suggest you make your best case on petapan-scum.

Ok... like I said, give me until my V/LA is over. I'm trying to enjoy family time and this wagon is screwing around with that

[safebet222]

@mod... our plans fell through tomorrow morning so I am no longer on V/LA.

[safebet222]

A run down of the case against me:

BM thinks I'm scum because I am pushing the idea that Lunar is fakeclaiming. Possibly a bit because I am perceived as low effort or perhaps was too willing to let peta get by with not giving his full reads.

Unwnd thinks I've coasted without giving reads and have just pushed elim's. He also threw me in the bucket with Peta for not pushing him on his assumptions.

Mikul and Lunar both have said I am a PoE choice.

I think quiet is willing to vote me because his 2 town reads are on board...

Peta hasn't really said the he intends to vote me but thinks I've been opportunistic D1.

I also think that everyone, except perhaps BM (not really sure), has me pegged as a more experienced player. Or perhaps that I should know or do more than I am doing because I am a "ringer". Well, I'm not very experienced... this is my 4th game of forum mafia... I have some chat mafia experience but no RL mafia experience. If you look at my last game I was accused of the same thing that unwnd accused me of, saying nice things but not really doing anything. IDK. Honestly, having a limited amount of time in my day to dedicate to mafia makes keeping up with the game hard at times. I also don't channel anger that easily and I don't get bent out of shape over games. Mafia is fascinating to me, that's why I play.

I just seems like the argument against me has been that I haven't lived up to some expectation you all have put on me, and that is used to determine the intent of my actions. But in this case, you all have put expectations on me that aren't at the same level as my experience, ability and availability at the moment.

[safebet222]

So I want to take each of the arguments I see against me and respond...

As far as the Lunar fakeclaiming scenario, I think I've done as well as I can to explain why I think its more likely scenario than random chance and why we should consider that. Before it was just mikul claiming that he would never consider it. I took exception to that. The manner in which he expressed his opinion on the matter didn't fit the situation in my opinion. Threats to become uncooperative coupled with his singular agenda of getting quiet elimm'd strike me as scummy. Hence my reaction.

My treatment of Illwei... I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that has been a bit confused and all over the place with him. Unwnd and Peta both went back and forth on voting Illwei. I did go back and look hard at Illwei before voting mikul and I cannot see that slot as scum after the supposed slip.

Unwnd, quite frankly I don't know where you're coming from. I did push back at you for you're day 1 reads, I voted you in the middle of D1, also see post 204 and I came off of you once your tone changed. See post 402.

As far as opportunism, after my initial push against unwnd, I went to turtle in agreement with BB that the slot needed to be sorted. The pressure did nothing and he replaced and Norfolk basically capitulated, the slot is simply lhf for me and I didn't want to go there as it doesn't (and didn't) really tell us anything. Lunar was a combo PoE/behavioral vote I said in post 512. It also put him at E-1, if I was the least bit concerned about not looking opportunistic to draw attention my way, I'm not putting him at E-1. After, lunar claimed, we were coming down to having to choose between norfolk and quiet, and I was not sure which was better. I think I had been asking mikul a bunch of questions about his read of quiet... see post 685 for one. I chose quiet as the better choice for elim. As many of you noted, the norfolk flip did nothing for us apart from get rid of a bad town slot.

Not quite sure how to respond to PoE except to say that maybe you should reexamine mikul's play and ask yourself what his agenda of only pushing quiet save him from having to do.

To sum up my defense, I felt good about my participation when I was here. I thought I made my thoughts clear that I was trying to support and not lead. I thought that I pushed people that I thought were being inconsistent. I compromised when I had to. I am a bit baffled, in awe really, of how fast you all have seemed to consolidate around this push. It took us 10 days to do that around the Lunar push.

[safebet222]

As far as BM's request to make a case against Peta, as much as I would like to survive, I can't. If you look at his voting pattern D1, he doesn't have to do the Lunar, Illwei, Norfolk flip flopping if he's scum. He'd simply need to have a singular agenda, so he doesn't have to decide. Same for unwnd and quiet to an extent. That's where I get hung up on this game. My last game I focused on looking for who was being anti town and opportunistic and I missed the person that had only one agenda, who coasted to a win. I'm not willing to do that this time. Mikul needs to get pushed here for his quiet tunnel. I'm also not going to be convinced that its stupid nor scummy to think a Lunar fakeclaim is in play here, either.

So, I've said my peace... I will be able to respond tomorrow to any questions but I'm going to bed now. If you all hammer me before I'm awake. I had fun as I always do, thanks for the game.

[safebet222]

I have a hangup about quiet... Especially when it comes to being partners with unwnd. Specifically the opening of D1, let me sheep you schtick and post 258. I also am hung up on the thing I posted before about his town tell. I think its a mistake to go there.

[safebet222]

Damn... BM...why should I consider voting where my two scum reads are?

[safebet222]

I'm here and reading... Just way too busy to post.

@peta and unwnd... I hope you two can stop bickering and see what mikul is trying to do.

[safebet222]

basically, i don't think claiming a PR there is an enormous risk for mafia - if the setup is two goons, they know that 2/3 of the setups have no power roles, and they can try to guess the missing PR that WOULD be in column A. In a worst case scenario, BB counter claims them and they likely lose that battle, but a VT claim would be likely to be eliminated anyway, so it's low risk with a potentially high reward - a correct guess means they survive, because town won't want to eliminate a PR claim on day 1, and on future days they can claim to be roleblocked as an excuse for their survival.

additionally, BB let slip what role he was when he outed:

If I’m right about things a night kill on me is likely to fail but I welcome it and why I’m pretty okay claiming early

this very obviously is hinting that he's expecting doctor protection. say what you will about lunar's terse posts, i don't assume them to be completely unintelligent, and i believe if mafia, they or their partner would be observant enough to notice this and know to claim doctor to try to avoid elimination.

in fact, i think i remember you picking up on this day 1 when you were pressuring him to hardclaim?

This is what I've been saying all along.

[safebet222]

I am convinced we're dealing with a scum mikul and probably teamed with lunar.

Peta, unwnd... Take a reread of your conversation at the beginning of today and look at mikul's comments afterward. It's basically playing into your insecurities over each other, the BM NK and the Lunar claim. It is offering you a convenient solution, a common denominator, me.

But look how mikul was the one who first understood the nature of the BB claim, immediately threw a quick sus lunar's way to then tunnel quiet again. It easily could have been coaching lunar for that claim. It then basically shut out all consideration of a scum!lunar D2 and was townread for it. Now it's conveniently entertaining a scum lunar when stakes are the highest. FMPOV the BB claim fell into its lap like a Christmas gift and its taking advantage of it and telling you exactly what its doing is very unlikely.

I also find each of you to be most likely town. First, because I don't think its coincidence that you started today looking at each other as a possible candidate. Second, although stylistically different, your approaches were very similar, looking to play a casual, toned down game in service to the website. I personally think your D1 votes look quite like you both unexpectedly found yourselves in a much harder game than originally expected. I would expect scum!peta or scum!unwnd to be expecting difficulties and be more methodical than you both have been.

That's the best way I can explain where I am at.

[safebet222]

So I of course would be down to vote either of them, my preference is voting mikul first.

[safebet222]

I am around today and can respond to questions. I'm not a fan of that Peta and unwnd were focusing so much on each other and am a bit more releived that they are starting to branch out.

[safebet222]

As likely that he fakeclaimed than he's telling the truth. Perhaps a bit more likely at this point of the fakeclaim because he wasn't the NK.

My point before was always that, all things being equal, I felt that it was better than random chance FMPOV that Lunar was fake claiming, which at the time was 1 in 6. I was stunned that nobody wanted to really deal with that D2 when:

1. If he was telling the truth, he was worthless because he was always being roleblocked, and

2. We could afford to be wrong.

[safebet222]

At this point, GTMH I want to kill between mikul and lunar and pray I'm right.

[safebet222]

Wow... It got busy. So, we know unwnd and mikul aren't scum together or they would have hammered Lunar...

Mikul/lunar or Mikul/Peta? More likely mikul/lunar....

I really want to go with my gut here and vote mikul but that lunar vote...

Question, so after I check in now... That lunar vote is either made by scum or on scum, or both, right? Or am I missing something? Is it wrong to suppose that scum would have had the time to coordinate on a town on town vote there already?

[safebet222]

Yeah... It's like always lunar now...

VOTE: lunar martian

[safebet222]

E-1

[safebet222]

Mikul... I don't blame you. This was an incredible game.

So long, and thanks for all the fish...

[safebet222]

Dude... I'm busy at work. I'll engage when I'm off work. I was town.

[safebet222]

GG everyone... Despite what mikul said this isliterally my 4 th game pf forum mafia anywhere... The first two being 3 or 4 years ago or so. I was really just trying to not scumslip and give town a run for their money. The win is unexpected in a good way.

[safebet222]

A big thanks to FF... The flavor was really fun.

Also thanks need to go to the vets that played. I know you don't have to but it is great that you do play the newbies. Thanks again.

[safebet222]

@safe you played this extremely well imo. For a 4th game it was a damn near masterpiece.

Thank you Mikul.

[safebet222]

For sure I owe props to safebet. He played super well which enabled me to coast through the remainder of the game.

Thanks Lunar. You kept me sane... There were a couple of times I didn't want to keep pushing and you snapped me out of it. Well done!

[safebet222]

Oh and of course I'm proud of Safebet too so congrats go there too

Thanks unwnd... Thanks for playing the newbie queue.

[safebet222]

I'd love to get advice from any of you as well. I think that D3 was a bad day for me. I didn't understand the full mechanical ramifications of putting my vote down on lunar when I did. I also thought I nearly scum slipped at one point.

[safebet222]

I don't know if you did it intentionally / unintentionally safebet but putting pressure on lunar in the way that you did was really big. Peta basically got poed because of it. There was 2 times were you didn't even have to push lunar and you did, in a way that you were certainly will to lynch him.

It set up a dynamic for iso where it just made no sense for you to push when you did. That was top tier scum play.

Yeah... It was intentional. I knew the meta in the newbies was to not bus your partner D1 so I mentioned it to Lunar as a strat. After the fakeclaim and the way you hard defended your positions D2 on that and quiet, I knew pushing Lunar was the most convincing way of distancing as long as it was yolo push until death.

The only other conscious strategy I used was to never FoS peta, no matter what... I was also prepared to hard defend him, but never really had to.