Newbie 2064 - (GG)

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: Orctin

Gotta vote the legend

[JacksonVirgo]

Not a lot of info to go on. From the brief look around the forum, it seems like most people aren't a fan of RQS and I get the feeling no vote is a good way to be the first elimination lol I guess if I have to pick, I'll go for the first voter (sorry, but I agree with your guess at least)

VOTE: Micc

Are you from another mafia site/game/server? If so can you post which one

[JacksonVirgo]

Not a lot of info to go on. From the brief look around the forum, it seems like most people aren't a fan of RQS and I get the feeling no vote is a good way to be the first elimination lol I guess if I have to pick, I'll go for the first voter (sorry, but I agree with your guess at least)

VOTE: Micc

This reads pretty awkward.

If you find RQS useful, then give it a try. Even if people ignore it that’s something you can read into.
More significant imo: you imply that not putting a vote down would you look suspicious, but you ignore another player who did that and instead vote for me. Is my vote coming down first even more suspicious than orctin not voting in their first post?

I completely agree, but I wanted to check their home-site, if any, as that may explain it.

[JacksonVirgo]

We are not no-eliminating, that is counter-intuitive to our goals.

[JacksonVirgo]

I've been busy today so I'll catch up tomorrow.
Also...

[JacksonVirgo]

Sheeesh

[JacksonVirgo]

No Elim depends where your from and played before, here they put a lot into the opening day trying to read everyone and making guesses based off what you say and whom you voted for - they like to have people make reads. I to am from other places where day 1 is typically a no elim - you can get into debates with others on the whole "well the odds are better..." thing

MS focuses more on day-play than night-play, at least more than my home-site (which has since died). Ignoring or half-assing day-play will make us lose, it's as simple as that.

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: orctin He's being suspiciously helpful...

From memory, they tend to be like that

[JacksonVirgo]

Hello! First time playing mafia (on this site) so if i mess up, im sorry in advance.

VOTE: navigatorv

Gotta learn somehow

[JacksonVirgo]

RE: no elimination
The majority of setups played on this site are balanced such that Town does not have enough power to sit on their hands and wait for PR’s to solve the game. We must make reads and eliminate starting Day 1. I can run through the numbers if any newbies want a detailed breakdown. The good news is this balance makes an interesting and fun game as opposed to just being a logic puzzle.

Couldn't have said it better myself,

[JacksonVirgo]

Seems pretty weak logic there.

No, I see where they are coming from, regardless of that I think it's wrong. Also early reads are mainly always "weak"

[JacksonVirgo]

What are you talking about? Didn't you vote for me?

Awkard moment incoming: i forgot to change my vote

sorry

VOTE: dsjstr

This tickles my soul a small bit and can't tell why

[JacksonVirgo]

I just find it odd that you're suddenly taking issue with the people who did RVS when you did it yourself and were advocating it until that post

+ town point to

navigatorv

for this post.

You don't have anythign else to post about other than those which is "backing up" your own vote in a sense?

[JacksonVirgo]

I wouldn't mind a Dum or Salsabil wagon tbf

VOTE: Salsabil

[JacksonVirgo]

I wouldn't mind a Dum or Salsabil wagon tbf

VOTE: Salsabil

I can somewhat understand Salsabil given they have been pretty brief when it comes to explaining their reasoning and you did notice a potentially suspicious comment, but do you mind if I ask why Dum? I'm curious if you've picked up on something or if you're just trying to spark a reaction from them?

I am voting Salsa since the read on Dum isn't super strong but they've been overly apologetic which I am thinking may be them doing so to "protect" themselves from any slips they make, which I also think is a subconscious act since they're new to the site.

[JacksonVirgo]

I just find it odd that you're suddenly taking issue with the people who did RVS when you did it yourself and were advocating it until that post

+ town point to

navigatorv

for this post.

You don't have anythign else to post about other than those which is "backing up" your own vote in a sense?

Cause I'm scum (you caught me! )

I'm pretty busy recently, final exam is knocking at the door and I've 0 prep lol! So, I'll post less and engage if I think I've to.

And about the post you quoted, if I'm agreeing someone's pov on someone, what is wrong with that? For the reason I think

Micc

is scummy, if the reason matches with someone's else thought and I think they are town for that, why it’s suspicious to you? I don’t understand your though process here.

That sarcasm doesn't help your case, in fact it makes me more confident. I am not sussing you because you responded/town-read someone that has the same thoughts, I am just saying that's ALL you're responding to.

Good luck with exams though.

[JacksonVirgo]

Seems pretty weak logic there.

No, I see where they are coming from, regardless of that I think it's wrong. Also early reads are mainly always "weak"

what's the point of this post

What's the point of

this

post. Why shade me from this.

[JacksonVirgo]

What's the point of this post. Why shade me from this.

It's interesting that you think that's shading. Do you think it could be inherently shady? I wanted to know what's on your head when you made that post.

What do you mean regarding asking me if it's inherently shading. I don't want people to go down false rabbit holes like my previous game so I am clarifying to them that their logic being weak is not AI like it seemed they were pushing.

[JacksonVirgo]

Salsabil Faria - seems knowledgeable on the game

Can you justify this one for me? I’m not seeing it at all.

Post 36 and 54 (dont know that "link to post shortcut") - demonstrated knowledge of the game and understanding overall reading of players and their town/scum position

There's post tags, if you put a post number it auto-generates the relevant post link for you.
23, links to post 23 and is done like the following.

Code: Select all

[post]23[/post]

When you preview you should see something similar to the following (the new number there is the post ID)

Code: Select all

[post=#12771706]23[/post]

[JacksonVirgo]

I don't want people to go down false rabbit holes like my previous game so I am clarifying to them that their logic being weak is not AI like it seemed they were pushing.

How did you decide that it's a false rabbit hole

It's in what I said. They seemed to be pushing what I read as NAI

[JacksonVirgo]

What do you think about orctin vs Micc

I think both sides voted each other for reasons that are NAI. iirc orctin isn't an aggressive player so Micc's push against them being "hypocritical" in a sense seems valid in a vacuum but not in reality considering what I know about Orc, although I am not a huge fan of how they said about Micc being at E-1.

Regarding Orc, I also think they have a read on Micc that's also NAI, I've already said this but I'll repeat it again. Scum-reading Micc for weak reads (which is all I remember their read being) is completely NAI since at this point in ANY game is rarely even a small bit strong.

Personally I think they're TvT, or at least I have no reason to think otherwise at this point in time.

[JacksonVirgo]

Jackson on the other hand has me feeling wary. They spent most of the first two days lurking and then suddenly began posting a ton. This in and of itself isn't necessarily a scum move, they could simply be focusing on getting a read on people, however if you combine that with the fact that they're very quick to defend Micc who's been the primary suspect thus far and them seemingly trying to make us turn on each other, it does read as somewhat concerning. Not outright scummy in my eyes, bit definitely someone to keep an eye on.

Hey fam, check my signature.
Also I am not going to *not* defend someone that I think is wrongfully pushed just because they're a wagon, that's insane. Please do quote where you think I am trying to make you turn on each other, I literally am saying that Orc/Micc is TvT, trying to *stop* that conflict because I feel they're both Town.

[JacksonVirgo]

If I had to pick, I'd say my top 3 suspects are, from most to least suspicious, Salsabil, Jackson, and Micc. However, there's still enough doubt that I can't pick a specific person to point the finger at rn. That said

It's early on day 1, it does not matter where your vote is as long as you're voting someone you think is scummy. I have no idea why you seem to think it holds a lot of weight in who you specifically vote.

[JacksonVirgo]

Responses in red

Hey fam, check my signature.
Also I am not going to *not* defend someone that I think is wrongfully pushed just because they're a wagon, that's insane. Please do quote where you think I am trying to make you turn on each other, I literally am saying that Orc/Micc is TvT, trying to *stop* that conflict because I feel they're both Town.

The lurking isn't what gets me, it's that you went from lurking to dominating the conversation. Just seems a bit odd.
As for quotes, aside from the more active hostility that started right around the time you started posting, there's the vehement refusal to even consider a no-elimination over just voting someone that seems sus with no real evidence.

If that's your issue, why did you say that lurking was the issue. I hardly ever post much in early-game unless someone twists my soul (mainly in a bad way), just the way I play. Also as Micc has said, no-eliminating forces the Town to rely on PRs more than what is needed, and that throws the odds into the Mafia's hands which I do not want. I am assuming that you come from role-madness like games (such as Town of Salem) where there is a lot of PR roles and it's focused on night-play.

We are not no-eliminating, that is counter-intuitive to our goals.

Then the defense of Micc in and of itself isn't an issue, but the fact that you seem to view aggressive and borderline antagonistic behavior as not something to worry about

Aggressive or antagonistic does not equal scummy, that could very well just be their playstyle similar to how someone like DkKoba plays

It's in what I said. They seemed to be pushing what I read as NAI

Yet seem to find Dum apologizing suspicious enough to warrant a potential wagon

Firstly I already said it was mainly gut so I won't be pushing them, so you're misrepresenting my case here. There's also a large difference between why I think that read was NAI and why I think Dum's actions were scummy, which you seemed to ignore.

I am voting Salsa since the read on Dum isn't super strong but they've been overly apologetic which I am thinking may be them doing so to "protect" themselves from any slips they make, which I also think is a subconscious act since they're new to the site.

Combine that with the fact that claiming both orctin and Micc are TvT is actually a very good way to protect a potential scum (or at least disruptive player), without attracting suspicion, it has me wary. Not enough to warrant a vote, but enough to keep an eye out.

If you read them as SvT go for it, I don't and I am not going to push what I don't believe just because I may be read as partners.

If I had to pick, I'd say my top 3 suspects are, from most to least suspicious, Salsabil, Jackson, and Micc. However, there's still enough doubt that I can't pick a specific person to point the finger at rn. That said

It's early on day 1, it does not matter where your vote is as long as you're voting someone you think is scummy. I have no idea why you seem to think it holds a lot of weight in who you specifically vote.

As for this, I'll let you answer your own question.

Ignoring or

half-assing

day-play will make us lose, it's as simple as that.

Again you're misrepresenting. You clearly have scum-reads that are ranked in order, yet choose to not vote at all. Is that because you may be scared of the backlash possibly

[JacksonVirgo]

Dum at #104 and #114 doesn't feel right. It feels fake.

Agreed, #115 is the kicker imo.

[JacksonVirgo]

You also seem to have it in your head that I'm from another server and I'm not sure why. I've said multiple times both in this thread and in my introduction that this is my first time playing Mafia, I've simply had a large enough interest to know a number of rules and roles. The reason for me considering No-Elimination has nothing to do with PRs, it's simply based on the fact that with 7 town and 2 scum, unless someone slips up bad, our day one guesses are more likely to hit a townie than accomplish anything. I've basically stopped advocating for that anyway, you were just asking for instances of you trying to force confrontation and that was one thing that bugged me.

My bad, I thought it was you that replied saying you were from Mafia.gg or something. No-elimination has everything to do with PRs, the setup is balanced for having daily eliminations, including day 1. I can link you to a game where no-elim happened d1 and Town would have been utterly screwed if scum didn't scum-slip. An elimination is a kill that the Town controls, any other kill will 100% not be scum. Also would you rather wait for a scummy person to live in LyLo (2v3 or 1v2 where an elimination causes a loss) or would you rather clear them early-game when the stakes are less strong. I cannot word this well enough but trust that I am SE, and I know that no-elimination is bad practice.

Also I do not understand that last bit, I did ask for you to quote where I was forcing town to turn on each other or however you worded it, I am going to assume you're going to say so later in this post but if not I need that or I am going to consider you're pulling that out of your ass.

On the topic of aggressive and antagonistic not indicating scum necessarily, I actually agree. What I don't agree on is the idea that that means someone should be exempt from being voted. In my eyes, a townie that mostly causes problems and makes everyone go on wild goose chases isn't a help to the town cause and is unintentionally aiding the scum. As far as I'm concerned, Micc has done little to help in finding the scum and made us waste a good portion of time by making himself suspicious to several people, myself included, so if we can't get a good enough scumread to figure out one of the two mafia members, I don't think eliminating him would hurt us too much.

By all means vote them if you think that's scum for them, I respectfully disagree that it's scummy but if you make a case on them that convinces me I will obviously have no qualms about voting there. But as it stands right now, I think both them and Orc are Town and I would rather focus on Dum or Salsa. If you see them as anti-town, that's a fair reason to want to eliminate them but what exactly makes them scum over anti-town. I personally do not read them as being anti-town either but you do so I am asking this not because I agree with you but I want to understand.

As for the post where you found Dum scummy, the reason I didn't include your reasoning in the quote is I thought it was fairly arbitrary and seemed more like the first thing that popped into your head because I asked than an actual valid read, I never intended to misrepresent your case. I mostly quoted that because while the circumstances were different, yes, it struck me as odd what you consider a valid AI and was one of the things that made me start suspecting that you might be trying to spark unnecessary infighting.

If I really wanted to spark fighting I would be aiding in the push of Orc or Micc not try and start a new wagon as that would put attention more on myself which would be counter-intuitive.

With the orctin v Micc situation, it wasn't that I read it as SvT, it's just what I already stated: it's a very good way to protect a potential scum, without attracting suspicion and wouldn't have been an issue if not for the oddities that I'd noticed at that point.

I am not saying your logic is wrong by saying it could be scum protecting, but saying it won't attract suspicion is wrong, going against the Town's overall conscious does attract suspicion so it wouldn't be something I'd do. If you wanted to check my scum games, I am very strategic/methodic with how I play but I'm going to stop self-meta right now since I don't like doing so.

I fail to see how me using your words against you is misrepresenting. Even if my way of playing cautiously doesn't align with your sense of how to play well, it doesn't change the fact that that's why I have been so focused on being careful even with an early day 1 vote. In my mind, since hammering could come at any time for someone with high votes, voting carelessly early on is a mistake which is why I've been such a stickler for needing a good reason to change my vote.

It's misrepresenting because they have nothing to do with each other if you added context. Voting itself does not hold much weight at all without intent, for example saying you're voting for a reaction will hold no actual weight since the votee will know it's not valid heat. You say you don't know who to vote, but you obviously do considering you have three tiered scums so not voting is the reverse. Your intent does not hold weight if you do not vote, at least to me. Also you should not worry about voting, as if somebody hammers prior to when is needed, they should be eliminated the day after and/or will give us more leads going into the night.

As for why I haven't voted anyone else despite being able to rank my suspicions, I don't particularly care about backlash. Even if I get eliminated for a view I wouldn't have a problem as long as it helped town win later. The reason I haven't voted for someone new is for the same reason I said in my last post:

there's just too many possibilities with little to weigh things in anyone's favor.

While I can rank my suspicions, the difference is only by about 5% maybe 10% between each one max, which isn't significant enough to warrant voting yet.

I have no real comment on this at this time.

On the topic of Dum's recent behavior, I have to agree, something's very off compared to how he was at the start. He's been jumping up my scumlist pretty significantly with each post, but I agree with orctin that until he has time to defend himself, a vote isn't warranted; though once he does so, if it isn't satisfactory and no one's jumped up in suspicion, I'm most likely going to vote for him.

Yeah, the post I quoted before was the first of a string of weird tonal posts and their apologetic/backlash-protective posts make my read on them stronger. Also I disagree with Orc, they will not defend themselves properly and we won't get any pressure reads until they get pushed on. Again not voting but throwing intent is meaningless.

[JacksonVirgo]

JacksonVirgo:
I suppose I should probably establish my stance on Micc to avoid further confusion. I don't think he's scum, but his playstyle has thus far only hindered our investigations, not helped, which is why I said unintentionally helping the mafia.

Is this saying you're retracting a portion of your older post where you said myself, Micc and Salsa are who you think is suspicious, because here you seem like you assume Micc is Town here when before you thought they were scum.

Again, I've more found it odd that you seemed to get a bigger scum reading from Dum's initial posts which really didn't have much of substance to read from.

Substance isn't all you should be looking at, there are many different things that can be scum-tells. I believe humaneatingmonkey quoted a post explaining all this I recommend you give a read. Their overall

tone

is what I am reading them as scum for. Their tone is filled with self-preservation and as I said, filled with posts that are seemingly attempting to minimise backlash. Also the reason you do not always just scum-read due to content/substance is that many good scum are great at producing the right content and thus will make it near impossible for you to solve if you do not look at other angles.

Reflecting on what I said about you seemingly turning us against each other, I think I might've been jumping the gun slightly. I noticed a few odd things and the more hostile environment after you began posting which likely influenced my statement. You can consider it me pulling it out of my ass if you want, I don't because there were reasons that I've already outlined, but it was definitely a bit of a stretch (I'll admit I'm not a very trusting person even irl so there's a good chance that a lot of my speculation might just be me jumping at shadows. I'll try to avoid unintentional accusations in the future as I never expected it to take up so much valuable time for so little payoff).

The change in environment may be put down to my playstyle, I learned to speak my mind instead of holding things back, unless something makes me do otherwise. If that turned the game more hostile I apologize but that's just how I do fam. I do understand when you "feel" something and cannot explain it well enough.

One thing I disagree with is this:

Also you should not worry about voting, as if somebody hammers prior to when is needed, they should be eliminated the day after and/or will give us more leads going into the night.[/b][/color]

I feel that the time lost by an early day end isn't equal to the potential payoff. Since hammering prior to time is a move that I only imagine scum would do if they were desperate, I can't imagine eliminating that person has a high likelihood of helping us. Not to say that it's impossible for it to be beneficial, it just seems unlikely to be so when thinking about it logically.
As for what you said about voting and intentions meaning nothing by themselves, I'll take it into consideration. I still feel like voting without much to go on is a bad idea, but you raise some valid points I hadn't thought of.

An early day will not happen if Town does not vote until they catch up. I will say this in a seperate post after this to make it more clear. We will force policy eliminate anybody that hammers early, this is without fail we will do this. Enforcing it like this will make sure nobody, not even scum will hammer and if a hammer does happen it will be from scum. It's early days so we can easily afford a 1 for 1 (a town death for a scum death). I hope this helps explain why an early hammer is unlikely to happen, and without votes nobody will be given the pressure needed for us to solve with.

Also if you haven't got much to work with, make them by voting other's you think is likely scum, communicate between other perspectives and get responses from those you are pushing. This will create the necessary content. We can't just sit around idle waiting for scum to out themselves.

Playing this game in a vacuum of thought leads to a lot of recursive thinking, so I appreciate you countering my arguments. Even if I don't necessarily agree with everything you've said, it's definitely helped me consider things from some new angles.
With all that said, I agree that Dum is one of the most suspicious and while I'd like to give him time to defend, I also don't want him to use that time to think up an excuse.
VOTE: Dum

It's rare everyone agrees with a specific case, and it's not a bad thing if you disagree. It's bad if you fall into a tunnel and push Town into a worse spot.

May I ask what you're current reads are, no matter how "weak".

[JacksonVirgo]

I've been busy sorry, it's 3:30 and I just realised the time so I am off to sleep.

[JacksonVirgo]

I don't understand why their vote didn't move to navigatorv pre post 130. On the note of post 130:
Also I disagree with Orc, they will not defend themselves properly and we won't get any pressure reads until they get pushed on. Again not voting but throwing intent is meaningless.

Why didn't you move your vote onto Dum? You considered him to be "scummy" along with the player I replaced, they do something, overall seen as scummy, yet you sit back and don't vote? Instead the vote hovers around a player who wasn't around. As of this very moment I think you are the scum duo.

Are you assuming I am scum-reading navi? I believe I have clearly stated who I think the scum is, and I do not believe I have ever said that I scum-read navi. If you actually checked who I scum-read, and then check my vote. And then ask this again.

Also, trying to solve through associations without a flip is a really bad idea and will majority of the time be wrong.

[JacksonVirgo]

Wait a fuckin' second. You are the salsa slot. Why are you refusing to acknowledge I am voting your slot

[JacksonVirgo]

I will try my best to win though.

so weird from the get go

I'll take this a compliment. Thank you.

Take the following with a pinch of salt,

gut-feels

Scummiest in no particular order:
JacksonVirgo, Fizz Raab, Orctin, Penguin_Alien
Meh in no particular order:
Dum, NinjaStore, Humaneatingmonkey (I like this name), Navigator
Towniest in no particular order:
Micc, Cabd

This was my first read over of all the messages, I'll read them again, try to link things/unlink things. Fingers crossed it goes well. There are many mehs because it is based off of vibe not anything particularly concrete, this will be fixed.

Explain these reads

[JacksonVirgo]

Wait a fuckin' second. You are the salsa slot. Why are you refusing to acknowledge I am voting your slot

All of the pressure from a vote with no sustanence or logic forces me to respond to it. You don't have to scum read someone to vote for them. You could just go down the route of "oh that seems suspicious", "oh that could apply some nice pressure", "I keep pushing very aggressively against somebody, and my push is focused on someone not wanting to be voted, maybe I should vote them and test the hypothesis."
Mainly the last one.

I have no clue what you're saying. I have already said I scum-read your slot and Dums and I have made it obviously so, yet you're saying that you thought it was a pressure vote or something? That is the strangest thing I've heard so far.

You then appear in the thread, completely ignoring the fact that I am voting you, then you go and ask why I am not voting Dum when it's quite obvious if you read the game (which by your wording I am assuming you have) why I am not, as I've already said why. Then you say you have the strongest scum-read on myself, without explaining it at all and then in a later post you say how your read on me is not from me as an individual but as an associative read with me and dum. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is insane.

[JacksonVirgo]

I will try my best to win though.

so weird from the get go

I'll take this a compliment. Thank you.

Take the following with a pinch of salt,

gut-feels

Scummiest in no particular order:
JacksonVirgo, Fizz Raab, Orctin, Penguin_Alien
Meh in no particular order:
Dum, NinjaStore, Humaneatingmonkey (I like this name), Navigator
Towniest in no particular order:
Micc, Cabd

This was my first read over of all the messages, I'll read them again, try to link things/unlink things. Fingers crossed it goes well. There are many mehs because it is based off of vibe not anything particularly concrete, this will be fixed.

Explain these reads

Penguin_Alien posted once and disappeared, absolutely lurking.
As for the rest: No.

Thank you for strengthening my read on you.

[JacksonVirgo]

Wait a fuckin' second. You are the salsa slot. Why are you refusing to acknowledge I am voting your slot

All of the pressure from a vote with no sustanence or logic forces me to respond to it. You don't have to scum read someone to vote for them. You could just go down the route of "oh that seems suspicious", "oh that could apply some nice pressure", "I keep pushing very aggressively against somebody, and my push is focused on someone not wanting to be voted, maybe I should vote them and test the hypothesis."
Mainly the last one.

I have no clue what you're saying. I have already said I scum-read your slot and Dums and I have made it obviously so, yet you're saying that you thought it was a pressure vote or something? That is the strangest thing I've heard so far.

You then appear in the thread, completely ignoring the fact that I am voting you, then you go and ask why I am not voting Dum when it's quite obvious if you read the game (which by your wording I am assuming you have) why I am not, as I've already said why. Then you say you have the strongest scum-read on myself, without explaining it at all and then in a later post you say how your read on me is not from me as an individual but as an associative read with me and dum. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is insane.

This was me being foolish and getting navigatorv and Dum mixed up in my head, I do apologise.
Your whole issue with Salsa was they apologised.

You're misrepresenting.

[JacksonVirgo]

You're still misrepresenting me dude

[JacksonVirgo]

You're still misrepresenting me dude

[JacksonVirgo]

For fuck sake you can't be this dense. I am voting because of the intentions/tone behind their content not the content itself. Now stop fucking misrepresenting me I swear to fucking god

[JacksonVirgo]

Wait, I'm a bit confused, whe did Jackson think that I was scared of being voted? I remember HEM thought that but can't remember Jackson ever saying anything like that?

I don't think I've said that either

[JacksonVirgo]

Ah I see, I said it in a non-direct way. My bad

[JacksonVirgo]

[quote="In post 211I think Jackson only votes for what they think are scum moves. Even if I was scared of backlash, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm scum[/quote]
This is actually Town, I am fairly confident in this from this post. And to comment on this, that is indeed how I play. Just because an action may seem scummy or anti-town from the surface, does not mean that it comes from scum. Look deeper or you'll fall for false rabbit holes

[JacksonVirgo]

Anyway, ignoring the mess, the point stands, it is really suspicious that they didn't vote Dum. The whole game they said they were suspicious of Dum, admittedly alongside me/Salsa, but they were suspicious of Dum all game. Dum starts to be in the spotlight, JacksonVirgo decides, you know what, I was suspicious of Dum all the game, there's a wagon forming on Dum, there's no point in voting someone I think is scummy. All of JacksonVirgo's repsonses in Post 130, would completely justify voting Dum.

Why should I vote Dum, who I only scum-read mainly from gut over someone I have logic against. Why should I vote Dum, when I have a stronger read on someone else. You're assuming my read on Dum is stronger, when it's not. You keep assuming my logic on Salsa is "just them apologizing" when that's not the case at all. And I am the one that actually started throwing suspicion onto Dum before everybody else so your logic here is completely wrong. Your logic only stands if my only scum-read is Dum, which is completely not the case.

"If I really wanted to spark fighting I would be aiding in the push of Orc or Micc not try and start a new wagon as that would put attention more on myself which would be counter-intuitive."
By post 130, a wagon was already forming on Dum, and they think Dum is scummy or warranting of suspicion.

I started the fucking wagon dude, if I wanted to spark more fighting I wouldn't have done that as if I were scum, I would have no idea that it would take weight so fast.

"Also I disagree with Orc, they will not defend themselves properly and we won't get any pressure reads until they get pushed on. Again not voting but throwing intent is meaningless."
This is referring to the Dum wagon, once again, they find Dum to be suspicious or scummy, so why don't they vote.

This is starting to get hilariously insane. I keep saying I have more suspicion on your slot, so why would I vote elsewhere.

I also present to you: Post 139
"Also if you haven't got much to work with, make them by voting other's you think is likely scum, communicate between other perspectives and get responses from those you are pushing. This will create the necessary content. We can't just sit around idle waiting for scum to out themselves."
How does pushing someone, essentially afk, "get responses from those you are pushing". How is not jumping on a wagon you find suspicious not "sit around idle waiting for scum to out themselves"?

Check my last response. It's not hard dude

I'm convinced completely, it is to feign suspicions of Dum, correct me if I'm mistaken, but Dum hasn't been a strong town read this game, and a fair few of us have been suspicious at at least one point, so why else would they pretend to be suspicious of Dum, if not because they are scum buddies, wanting to subtly distance themselves?

What are you saying here? Null-read does not mean they're a scum-read what is your point.

The slot I replaced into, barely posted, fair enough. They were never as big of a focus as Micc was. They say they don't want to start a wagon because they don't want attention. Why wouldn't they want attention? Town loves attention, they know they're Town, they don't have to worry about making mistakes like Scum do. They are trying to get everybody else to vote. They are trying to fly under the radar, to distance themselves from their scum duo (Dum).

It does not matter how much they've posted. Their overall tone and the way they've been speaking is hugely filled with self-preservation. What the fuck are you even saying about attention, it is clear Salsa didn't want to be in the middle of it all and then you say Town loves attention, you're essentially saying that your slot

is

scum.

@JacksonVirgo, what would it take for you to actually vote Dum? Do you need a cop to reveal Dum as scum? Do you want to wait until there is less attention on him? You're suspicious of him, other people are suspcious or wary of him, you have a prime time to apply pressure.

When I feel the time is right, if you flip Town Dum is who I would next bet is scum it's not this hard to get in your head is it? Jesus.

I apologisse for the lack of organisation and neatness in the last few posts.
I am 99% these are the duo, entirely based on JacksonVirgo.

[JacksonVirgo]

[quote="In post 211]I think Jackson only votes for what they think are scum moves. Even if I was scared of backlash, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm scum

This is actually Town, I am fairly confident in this from this post. And to comment on this, that is indeed how I play. Just because an action may seem scummy or anti-town from the surface, does not mean that it comes from scum. Look deeper or you'll fall for false rabbit holes

why is this town? to be honest I'm reading navigator as scum here

Jackson thinks it is town indicative because it supports them.[/quote]
Incorrect, but if you wanna go for this. You think I am scum because it does not support you

I think it's Town because they're actively trying to understand my suggestions to them, trying to understand my playstyle not just at the surface but at it's core in an attempt to coordinate. It could be them pocketing me but at the moment I have no reason to believe so.

[JacksonVirgo]

It could be them pocketing me but at the moment I have no reason to believe so.

You have no reason to believe that nav could be scum?

They can be, I just don't think they are, at least for right now. That could be bias towards my scum-reads since one is really in the heat at the moment. My confidence in this read has dwindled since the revelation shot into my head but it's still up there.

[JacksonVirgo]

Responses in red

Hey fam, check my signature.
Also I am not going to *not* defend someone that I think is wrongfully pushed just because they're a wagon, that's insane. Please do quote where you think I am trying to make you turn on each other, I literally am saying that Orc/Micc is TvT, trying to *stop* that conflict because I feel they're both Town.

The lurking isn't what gets me, it's that you went from lurking to dominating the conversation. Just seems a bit odd.
As for quotes, aside from the more active hostility that started right around the time you started posting, there's the vehement refusal to even consider a no-elimination over just voting someone that seems sus with no real evidence.

If that's your issue, why did you say that lurking was the issue. I hardly ever post much in early-game unless someone twists my soul (mainly in a bad way), just the way I play. Also as Micc has said, no-eliminating forces the Town to rely on PRs more than what is needed, and that throws the odds into the Mafia's hands which I do not want. I am assuming that you come from role-madness like games (such as Town of Salem) where there is a lot of PR roles and it's focused on night-play.

We are not no-eliminating, that is counter-intuitive to our goals.

Then the defense of Micc in and of itself isn't an issue, but the fact that you seem to view aggressive and borderline antagonistic behavior as not something to worry about

Aggressive or antagonistic does not equal scummy, that could very well just be their playstyle similar to how someone like DkKoba plays

It's in what I said. They seemed to be pushing what I read as NAI

Yet seem to find Dum apologizing suspicious enough to warrant a potential wagon

Firstly I already said it was mainly gut so I won't be pushing them, so you're misrepresenting my case here. There's also a large difference between why I think that read was NAI and why I think Dum's actions were scummy, which you seemed to ignore.

I am voting Salsa since the read on Dum isn't super strong but they've been overly apologetic which I am thinking may be them doing so to "protect" themselves from any slips they make, which I also think is a subconscious act since they're new to the site.

Combine that with the fact that claiming both orctin and Micc are TvT is actually a very good way to protect a potential scum (or at least disruptive player), without attracting suspicion, it has me wary. Not enough to warrant a vote, but enough to keep an eye out.

If you read them as SvT go for it, I don't and I am not going to push what I don't believe just because I may be read as partners.

If I had to pick, I'd say my top 3 suspects are, from most to least suspicious, Salsabil, Jackson, and Micc. However, there's still enough doubt that I can't pick a specific person to point the finger at rn. That said

It's early on day 1, it does not matter where your vote is as long as you're voting someone you think is scummy. I have no idea why you seem to think it holds a lot of weight in who you specifically vote.

As for this, I'll let you answer your own question.

Ignoring or

half-assing

day-play will make us lose, it's as simple as that.

Again you're misrepresenting. You clearly have scum-reads that are ranked in order, yet choose to not vote at all. Is that because you may be scared of the backlash possibly

Jackson, how has your read on nav developed?

They were a scum-lean of mine right before I had that revelation, not as strong as my top two but I was leaning towards replacing Dum with them if they didn't turn around, which they started to which pushed to a null and then they drop that line which makes me town-read/lean them, I am not entirely sure if it's a confident read just yet.

[JacksonVirgo]

one last thing JV, your sig says you're a tactical lurker. what does it mean?

Sometimes I don't post and just read the thread for a small while in a tactical way. For example, if I feel like I am tunneling someone too hard I step back and just watch for a while to see what happens without my intervention etc. More reasons too but that's the way I feel is the best explanation. I also do it as scum so it's not anything to read me on

[JacksonVirgo]

so now that you're active, what could it mean for you?

What do you mean? If you're saying I'm contradicting it, I'm really not. I don't do it as my sole playstyle, I do so when I feel is needed.

[JacksonVirgo]

why are you so on edge lol
i'm asking because you're the most active poster here (besides me, but I spam one-liners), yet you carry "tactical lurker" in your sig. It's just curious, and I do wonder if you would say it's AI.

I'm not? It may seem like I am because some shit happened irl didn't mean to take it out here. And as I've said, it's not AI as far as I am aware but an external pov may think otherwise. Dunno

[JacksonVirgo]

Prodging, am busy

[JacksonVirgo]

(there are a few points that still make me raise an eyebrow at too),

Before I comment on anything else, can I ask what these points are

[JacksonVirgo]

I think navigatorv is town.

I did say this earlier aha

[JacksonVirgo]

It's evident that he's putting an active effort to make reads and sort people. My only issue is his reads don't progress as naturally as I want it to be because he constantly flip-flops his reads according to who in the gamestate is the hottest viable wagon. This does not look good to me. But then, being caught changing your reads and still making an effort into committing reads points towards town. It could also be the anxiety he's talking about. He is also obviously scared of elimination, which does not look good to me. But it could also be the anxiety he's talking about. I think the vulnerability and self-awareness might be influencing my reads here, but that's where I'll put him now.

See I think you're falling for a "fallacy", not sure if that's what you call it. Town would overall be more likely than scum to switch between wagons so much (especially newbie players). This read no longer works now that I've said this, obviously but scum in my experience stays put as much as they can do to AVOID being read as flip-flopping their reads. Scum want to have as valid looking perspective/progress as possible and this is counter that. I know that this does not apply 100% of the time but for now I think that logic is worth not being super suspicious of that specific portion of their content as of right now. Town can also be afraid of an elimination, except there's a fine difference between the way Town and scum both generally have their "tells". The key is being able to tell which is which.

[JacksonVirgo]

We lynch between Dum, JamesTheNames, and Fizz Raab today. Everything one else could stay to Day 2.

I do not like setting up eliminations. But I do agree this is likely where we lie

[JacksonVirgo]

Bruh this dude still has to bring up something which isn't hidden, and what I've already explained just to shade me

[JacksonVirgo]

JV, what do you feel about these people?

Don't exactly know what you mean here.

[JacksonVirgo]

You said that you agree that this is where we will lie, so I'm interested in who you'd prefer to elim (obviously it's JamesTheNames but I wanna hear what you think about the other people)

I don't really have a read on Fizz, I was mainly talking about Dum/James as those are my scum-reads and I don't see myself moving as of right now.

As I have said before, Dum's posts have been pinging me, similar to Salsa, like they're scared of being scum going against the Town and are making posts to give themselves the footing to stand on if they get pushed. I believe I worded it like backlash-preventative posts etc.

[JacksonVirgo]

Sorry it's 2am and I wanna watch some demon slayer before sleeping so talk tomorrow

[JacksonVirgo]

Jacko is also getting heated in a way that I've not seen in my few games with them? I'll check their alignment in those games again

Check my latest games.

[JacksonVirgo]

Should be a relatively quick catchup post.

Hi I'm Johnny I'm an SE (which stands for sexy endividual) and I'm here to just play like regular. If I come off a preachy or condescending please know I mean no offense, I love this game and wanna help you enjoy it.

Hi JV!

Howdy

[JacksonVirgo]

Holy fuck there are huge posts

[JacksonVirgo]

Was it rationalmadman in your other game?

Indeed it was, that game had me heated so bad I almost replaced out

[JacksonVirgo]

I disagree with JV and Monkey about Dum looking fake.

Mind clarifying further?

[JacksonVirgo]

Unlike JacksonVirgo trying to hide under the radar by just focusing on myself, I'm trying to get content from other people, admittedly I've not done a great job at it.

Are you actually serious? How could you ever call what I am doing under the radar

[JacksonVirgo]

Have commented on how they normally play many a time already.

I do this all the time. I am actually sick of you at this point

[JacksonVirgo]

Actually elim me, I wanna see James reaction.

[JacksonVirgo]

Actually elim me, I wanna see James reaction.

Then throw them in bad play Jail

[JacksonVirgo]

Real fuckin' sick of them. I am sick of having to deal with people like them every. single. fucking. game

[JacksonVirgo]

Have commented on how they normally play many a time already.

I do this all the time. I am actually sick of you at this point

Ignore the context and try to insult me more go for it. You ignored the context, you say you hate self meta yet you do it yourself. Stop trying to be edgy and rude.

Yes, I still fuckin' hate it dude. I am not even going to try with you why would I read your context. Also I can't be assed reading any of the large posts so don't expect me to read it

[JacksonVirgo]

I just ctrl fd "fuck" In 2062 and got 14 results. Saw some.... choice things

Yeah they got me mad aha

[JacksonVirgo]

Actually elim me, I wanna see James reaction.

...do you townread James?

Hell no. I am just done trying with someone that's just gonna tunnel me and not actually listen.

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: JacksonVirgo

"Elim me, let's see James reaction" is a perspective slip. JV has been pursuing James as scum throughout the whole thread and this proposition seems like he thinks James is "bad town". Plus, I think it's emulating navigatorv's proposition to gain some towncred.

Like fuck. Alright, I finally give up on you all.

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm not replacing out for some poor bastard to be put in this situation. Can't wait to see James needing to seriously have a hard look at themselves

[JacksonVirgo]

Actually reading that post where you vote me. And what I was talking about is their reaction to my flip going into day 2.

[JacksonVirgo]

Either way, Fuck you all. Except orc <3

[JacksonVirgo]

Actually reading that post where you vote me. And what I was talking about is their reaction to my flip going into day 2.

Yes, and you seem to think that it will give him some sort of stop, but if he's scum, he already knows you're town anyway?

Except I've found that scum that tunnels the elim finds it hard to make an elegant transition going into the next day.

[JacksonVirgo]

not actually listen

it feels here that you're actually trying to convince them that you're town, instead of catching him as scum, and that's where the frustration is coming from

Your 'feeling' is wrong.

[JacksonVirgo]

Except I've found that scum that tunnels the elim finds it hard to make an elegant transition going into the next day.

Is this really it? Do you really believe this? You think he, as scum, is making a bad play right now tunneling you, and that by elim-ing yourself, you're actually going to win this game for yourself?

Nah I just don't really care anymore

[JacksonVirgo]

Your 'feeling' is wrong.

Please explain then

To be honest, I don't really know why I said stuff like that but it's definitely not for the reasons that you're reading it as.

-

pedit: Don't believe it, I couldn't care less.

[JacksonVirgo]

I've had a small distance session from MS and this is off-topic so I'll keep this brief, and I've come to realize I'm ashamed of myself of how I've been acting on this site as of late. I'm gonna take a small break after this game, thanks for sticking with me until now fam.

[JacksonVirgo]

I've had a small distance session from MS and this is off-topic so I'll keep this brief, and I've come to realize I'm ashamed of myself of how I've been acting on this site as of late. I'm gonna take a small break after this game, thanks for sticking with me until now fam.

Jackson, I know we haven't got a long much this game, but I just want to say you are still fun to play with even if some moments aren't the nicest.

Yeah apologies.

Also quick question, are you the James I know? I assume not as you've been acting as you don't know me

[JacksonVirgo]

I've had a small distance session from MS and this is off-topic so I'll keep this brief, and I've come to realize I'm ashamed of myself of how I've been acting on this site as of late. I'm gonna take a small break after this game, thanks for sticking with me until now fam.

Jackson, I know we haven't got a long much this game, but I just want to say you are still fun to play with even if some moments aren't the nicest.

Yeah apologies.

Also quick question, are you the James I know? I assume not as you've been acting as you don't know me

If you live in the United Kingdom there is a chance, I don't know any Aussies. Although I must say, Ten from NCT isn't Jackson.

There's a James from my old FM site which died (ToSFM) and also a Discord Mafia server I was just wondering if you were them. As I tend to find them all over the place online aha. I am also fairly sure Ten isn't Jackson either

[JacksonVirgo]

If end up being the elim, monkey is almost definitely Town here as is Navi.

[JacksonVirgo]

If end up being the elim, monkey is almost definitely Town here as is Navi.

I second this, but I'm not as certain on HumanEatingMonkey

From my perspective, or everyones when I flip Town. HEM actively caught a "slip", albeit wrong but that's beyond the point that can be read as a perspective slip and I don't think scum would be that observant at that point, where they had actively town-read me prior (as far as I recall). I am confident on my life that they're Town, at least for now.

[JacksonVirgo]

Admittedly I should stop being really stubborn I'm not helping the game and I don't want to ruin it for Jackson any more than I have.
Jackson and Dum are my priorities, I can't not see them as a duo, at least not right now, I'm also okay with going for a Fizz Raab Elim, but I'm not confident in this.

No no, you didn't ruin anything. I did so myself.
I'm willing to back off from my tunnel on you and do a compromise wagon on Dum if that can be swung, I still scum-read you by far but I also think continuing down that hole will make the game too toxic, at least for now. Assuming I even live which is unlikely.

[JacksonVirgo]

Also may I ask a question. If Dum/Myself get eliminated and flip Town, would that affect your read on the other considering you're reading us both as a pair.

[JacksonVirgo]

One thing I am a small bit concerned about with HEM is that when I appear with a "contraversial" read such as Dum (at the time) and Nav, they seem to switch their reads not immediately but a small bit afterwards. Either I am good at reading early queues more than other's or something else.

[JacksonVirgo]

Also may I ask a question. If Dum/Myself get eliminated and flip Town, would that affect your read on the other considering you're reading us both as a pair.

It would yes. There'd still be suspicions on whichever stays, but my whole issue is I really can't see any other explanation for why you didn't vote Dum. For pressure reasons and such from earlier.

Alright now that I have a clearer head and we're more civil I will try and explain this. From the very start of my read on Dum, the read was heavily in gut and I've learned to announce my gut reads but not tunnel them like I used to. Salsa/yourself was acting scummy in a sense that I could narrow down with actual logical thinking, salsa did not post/quote/respond to anything that was not directly backing up their own agenda, from memory their tone was also filled with self-preservation so that combined with not posting about anything that went against them made me think it's newb!scum pushing an agenda and trying not to stand out in the spotlight as best as possible. You then appeared with a similar agenda, focused mainly on scum-reading me which pinged me to the fact that 1. I was scum-reading you and it feels like OMGUS and 2. Your predecessor rejected everything that went against them. Both of which I feel are attempting to push the exact same agenda, self-preservation.

Now all I have on Dum is speculation based on their tone, which is stronger now that the game has progressed but not as strong as the read on your slot. Their tone seems overly apologetic and like they're trying to minimise backlash from their posts. That logic is much weaker than the one I had on you and thus I was never going to vote them over yourself, you then appeared essentially throwing an attack on me stating that I should have voted Dum if I were Town but that's entirely not the case at all, but either you're scum needing to throw a case at me or you're Town that's blind/biased to the fact that my logic on you was stronger to me, which other's also called out which I can only assume you didn't fully absorb because of your read.

--

I am also here to explain that associations read are kinda wack. Try, even for a second, removing that association read in your head (aka try to not think Dum and I are partners for a second) and think what your reads would be in that case, because you following this path by assuming we're both partners (which in a vacuum, chances are incredibly slim regardless) is making yourself tunnel-visioned. This is assuming that you're Town that's tunneling here and not scum.

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm sorry JV but I don't read this as genuine.

Again, don't be sorry because I couldn't care less. I completely understand my position here, but if possible give me a chance because I was heated and wasn't in the right mind. If you cannot that's fine too, I am just glad I didn't slip in end-game again

[JacksonVirgo]

Or if you cannot give me a chance, at least hear my words so that you still have my perspective when I flip.

[JacksonVirgo]

To those scum-reading Fizz, can you please compare them to this game and tell me what you get from comparing the two
viewtopic.php?t=86184&f=11&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

[JacksonVirgo]

So explain to me you guys as someone who's never played mafia and want to get better at playing the game; how do you do reads? I want to help, but I don't know how to do this.

he wants to help, but he doesn't know how to do this. he has the self-awareness to understand that he's not helping at all.

here, he seems to think he's more helpful than me.

Can you back this up with quotes?

[JacksonVirgo]

navigatorv is reading more townish at this point.

This is the general town conscience at this point, is there a reason you're saying this now?

[JacksonVirgo]

I was heated and wasn't in the right mind

I don't doubt that you were heated, but I think you were heated because I think you felt like caught scum there.

It's hard to convince you that you're wrong when I completely agree with the logic, but as a shot in the dark I was heated because I had to deal with a seeming brick wall twice in a row which is spitting ridiculous accusations. It's honestly the most frustrating thing, I also don't like to bring real life into things but I had a bad few days (I did get the BTS meal at maccas today though which was great) which could have also rocketed that further than was needed.

[JacksonVirgo]

And you are wrong if you think I'm scum when I've been way more helpful than HumanEatingMonkey has.

Oh shit. That's a complete contrast to their end in the game I linked. I can see what you're on now. Fizz in the other game admitted that they made a bad newbie mistake (claiming PR too early) and I agree that it doesn't match that.

[JacksonVirgo]

I had to deal with a seeming brick wall twice in a row which is spitting ridiculous accusations

Accusations that seem to come from a person you think is scum, not from someone you think is town. Why would you get heated with those?

Man, is this a new meta? Going for vulnerability and self-awareness when caught? It's very hard to engage you when you're agreeing with me and chalking it up as a simple mistake. It's very effective.

In my last game, I got heated when I thought they were scum too. It's not just this game where I am doing it so the slip you saw was not.

[JacksonVirgo]

I had to deal with a seeming brick wall twice in a row which is spitting ridiculous accusations

Accusations that seem to come from a person you think is scum, not from someone you think is town. Why would you get heated with those?

Man, is this a new meta? Going for vulnerability and self-awareness when caught? It's very hard to engage you when you're agreeing with me and chalking it up as a simple mistake. It's very effective.

In my last game, I got heated when I thought they were scum too. It's not just this game where I am doing it so the slip you saw was not.

Given I came to the realization afterwards that they were Town but I was dead set on them and Orc being scum.

[JacksonVirgo]

HEM check my last game with RationalMadman for me would ya. Hopefully that convinces you that that wasn't a slip.

[JacksonVirgo]

can you link? I'm really lazy

here

[JacksonVirgo]

Spoiler: Contents of this spoiler is all from another game.

But I am willing to vote this through to elimination without Rathe outing if everyone agrees Rathe is strobgly implying something here.

This is the scummiest thing I have ever heard in my life. Actually think about what you say before you say it.

If we do what you're wanting, if Andante is Doctor they will get eliminated without a counterclaim which wastes an elimination completely. If Andante is mafia fake-claiming, Rathe would die tonight out of policy just for keeping their vote on a PR claimant. What you're suggesting benefits only the Mafia and not the Town at all.

Also, Andante is already almost confirmed Town here, unless they're gamethrowing, as why would scum ever claim a PR when not even at E-1.

I believe that is where I started scum-reading them.

That post is where I start scum-reading them, after that I get incredibly heated and spoke as if they were stupid rather than had an agenda even though I had them as a SR.

[JacksonVirgo]

Just wondering if you are going to check that relatively soon, if not I'm going to sleep.

[JacksonVirgo]

You gave this as proof that it wasn't a slip.

But what I saw here was 1. you didn't have them as your scumreads before being frustrated with them 2. you weren't actively pushing them as scum before them 3. you only scumread them for disagreeing with you 4. it didn't end in any way similar to what you have right now.

please tell me what i'm missing

You don't think that if I started scum-reading that whose logic frustrated me, I would chalk it up to them being scum? And no game is the same, what I wanted to show you is that I still can level with someone I scum-read, or make posts that is taking an assumption that they are Town even if I think they're scum.

[JacksonVirgo]

Not to the point that you will make "gambits" where you would want to lynch yourself to see what the reaction of someone you think is scum. Implicitly, I think that's said with the intention that you assume James is town and he would reconsider how bad he's playing if only he saw you flip town.

I said that because I gave up on trying, due to it happening twice in a row and as a final attempt I did that 'gambit'. You're assuming that I said that because I 'knew' they were Town and I want them to reconsider their reads yes? Because even if that was the case, that wouldn't go against my meta as me assuming my scum-read is town is exactly what I was quoting that to prove was at the very least not scum!AI for me

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm going to sleep now, girlfriends mad at me for being awake so late.

[JacksonVirgo]

Intent to hammer*

[JacksonVirgo]

Intent to hammer*

Intent to hammer*

We still have 30 ish hours, no need to rush this we can still get responses. You did beat me to it though.

Also as cool as Daniel is and as much of a bop as 2U is, he isn't Jackson

Aijdowajdaihwduaowiduw
I am liking you more and more (you as a person, not anything to do with the game). You either google search profile pictures or you're a lad of culture.

[JacksonVirgo]

Btw, if Fizz flips red, his partner definitely bussed.

You think so?
If Jackson Hammers
Those who voted for Fizz Raab:
JacksonVirgo, humaneatingmonkey, navigatorv, JohnnyFarrar, orctin
Those who did not:
JamesTheNames, Dum, NinjaStore

If Fizz flips red I'm voting NinjaStore
397, 401, 404 and 405. Based off of these, and the fact at the time these were made Fizz Raab was at E-2. Surely NinjaStore would have voted here? NinjaStore made a claim in 397, which, I personally would consider as something to give scum vibes. 401 and 405 look like NinjaStore is trying to allow Fizz Raab to excuse themselves, then NinjaStore would try to defend them. This is only if Fizz Raab would flip red.

Could you respond to my larger post towards you

[JacksonVirgo]

It would have been nice to hear this earlier. I did explain that you can still temporarily throw sus on a slot then come back to it, so I'm still a bit ehh, but it would have been nice. I probably should have been listening to my own advice and stopped tunneling at least temporarily.

I forgot to click post and went to sleep I apologise.

Apologies again for getting heated earlier and not summarising it like this earlier. What do you mean by temporarily throw suspicion?

Also may I ask you to reword or simplify your read on Dum and myself so I can see if I can it all straight. Also it'll be easier to understand/absorb it when we're not throwing each other's pinky toes in the corner of a coffee table.

[JacksonVirgo]

Also I am Jackson now

[JacksonVirgo]

It would have been nice to hear this earlier. I did explain that you can still temporarily throw sus on a slot then come back to it, so I'm still a bit ehh, but it would have been nice. I probably should have been listening to my own advice and stopped tunneling at least temporarily.

I forgot to click post and went to sleep I apologise.

Apologies again for getting heated earlier and not summarising it like this earlier. What do you mean by temporarily throw suspicion?

Also may I ask you to reword or simplify your read on Dum and myself so I can see if I can it all straight. Also it'll be easier to understand/absorb it when we're not throwing each other's pinky toes in the corner of a coffee table.

I mean it in the lines of, somebody finds 2 people suspicious, 1 can be more suspicious than the other one, but if the game is pathing towards the least suspicious, or rather the one you aren't focusing, you'd start pressuring the other person, as its more efficient at the time. So if I were you, I would have switched to Dum, at least temporarily. When Dum and Salsabil were both in the game, Dum was much much more active, I would have pressured him, strengthened my read of him, then depending on how that goes, I could have gone back to Salsabil.

My issue with Dum was he voted Micc, for being helpful. I don't buy the whole gambit nonsense.

Ah I understand your meaning now, and to throw a counter you have to take into consideration that I am not you. Nobody will always play like you would, and other's may have experience or just a personal playstyle that counters your own way of thinking, just because you disagree with an action does not mean it comes from scum.

To throw in some context, at the point of Dum's wagon gaining traction, they were already being pressured enough for a newbie to give off the "pressure" reads that would be gotten from them, changing my scum-lean to a vote there would not have done anything for the pressure than there already was so I would never have voted there unless I was posting my intent to hammer. I felt more weight in voting your slot, which from memory did not have the votes to match the people agreeing or reciprocating the same read as myself. I am all for compromise wagons, I even posting my consideration of voting for Dum after we lost the overall heat of our interactions as I feel that would have progressed the game further than it would if we kept going down this tunnel together but that does not mean I have to vote for my second scum-read at all.

You have all the right in the world to consider us both a scum-team if one flips scum, but if you utilize the information that you actually have on you. The associative reads that you have are nothing more than a dream to follow through with, if you have no evidence to prove one is scum without the other, try and consider that as a future read and vote accordingly. This is again my own suggestion, which will probably only mean something after I flip, so take that as advice for the future from yours truly.

[JacksonVirgo]

JV what's with this tone change after you got scumread?

I'm trying to read the game with a fresh outlook. It has nothing to do with being scum-read directly.

[JacksonVirgo]

If you're going to call me scummy for it, just say so instead of shading me for it.

[JacksonVirgo]

I think you're scum but I'm getting a confusing tone read.

What's this about a tone read.

[JacksonVirgo]

I would have expected that you'll be pushed to a stronger defensive reaction if I called you out, but you mellowed and even went back to have a calmer conversation with James. I can see that you might just be placating aggression towards you when you saw that what you're doing isn't working, but I just don't really know anymore.

Oh I see, consider your vote kind of like a catalyst that exploded my frustration at the game so much I had to take a step back and reconsider a lot of things. Don't get me wrong, I still scum-read James but I feel if I get an understanding of everyone's individual perspectives without having the "heat" of the moment manipulating my perspective maybe I will be able to identify the flaws in my logic more than I would have before.

[JacksonVirgo]

This is usually the part that I would push your buttons and get emotional reactions, but I'm hesitating to put you into that spot again because you expressed some remorse and made yourself vulnerable. Honestly, I feel manipulated.

You feel manipulated? What do you mean? Are you saying you're having doubts about your read on me, but throw it up to being manipulated over noticing that everything else isn't pointing towards the same outcome as the original proposed slip would suggest.

[JacksonVirgo]

That looks a lot more aggressive than I meant it to be

[JacksonVirgo]

Lol you did a A to my E and now I'm all a tizzy

Who is this directed towards may I ask?

[JacksonVirgo]

What's the point of a question mark, when the words Who, What, When, Where, Why and How all suggest it's a question anyway. That and a question generally has a different verbal tone than other sentences and thus having the punctuation to signal that it is a question at the end is very bad design.

This is literally a 3am thought from Jacko (well 3:30am)

[JacksonVirgo]

What's the point of a question mark, when the words Who, What, When, Where, Why and How all suggest it's a question anyway. That and a question generally has a different verbal tone than other sentences and thus having the punctuation to signal that it is a question at the end is very bad design.

This is literally a 3am thought from Jacko (well 3:30am)

"I don't know how/what/who/when/why/where."
"I have no doubt as to how/what/who/when/why/where."
"What implies a question"

Statements vs Questions as above.
In actual speak a change in tone depicts a question, you can't do this online, so instead you use a ?, the 3rd example is important as you don't know if it is a question, or a statement, without the punctuation at the end or the tone.

I know that saying one of those words mid-sentence doesn't denote it as a question but usually at the very start it does. Except that very last example, which is probably a valid reason to use a question mark maybe I can sleep easy now aha

[JacksonVirgo]

You feel manipulated? What do you mean? Are you saying you're having doubts about your read on me, but throw it up to being manipulated over noticing that everything else isn't pointing towards the same outcome as the original proposed slip would suggest.

I have no idea how you play as scum, nor do I have any idea what kind of emotional range your scumplay has. This might just be good emotional scumplay. What you're doing is enough to make me question my read on you, but I'm not really sure where to proceed from here.

I'm thinking out loud because I can always look back to this moment and remember what I felt like. And maybe others too.

My scum-play is primarily based on making near-perfect mechanical plays where applicable and controlling the Town to push my own agenda. Feel free to look into my games to confirm this yourself instead of needing to trust my word. Check my wiki page for a current list of my games or at least I think it's current.

[JacksonVirgo]

@James was your read on Dum only based on me being scum with them?

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm off to sleep now

[JacksonVirgo]

You feel manipulated? What do you mean? Are you saying you're having doubts about your read on me, but throw it up to being manipulated over noticing that everything else isn't pointing towards the same outcome as the original proposed slip would suggest.

I have no idea how you play as scum, nor do I have any idea what kind of emotional range your scumplay has. This might just be good emotional scumplay. What you're doing is enough to make me question my read on you, but I'm not really sure where to proceed from here.

I'm thinking out loud because I can always look back to this moment and remember what I felt like. And maybe others too.

My scum-play is primarily based on making near-perfect mechanical plays where applicable and controlling the Town to push my own agenda. Feel free to look into my games to confirm this yourself instead of needing to trust my word. Check my wiki page for a current list of my games or at least I think it's current.

@HEM

are you going to respond to this

[JacksonVirgo]

Here's hoping Fizz responds. Even if I think this is the best decision, I still don't like the idea of her getting eliminated without offering up something in her defense

You have time to convince us otherwise.

You missed their meaning.

[JacksonVirgo]

What do you think the reasons they're not here at the moment

[JacksonVirgo]

You say I didnt say that I do it as both alignments when I clearly did.

[JacksonVirgo]

You say I didnt say that I do it as both alignments when I clearly did.

The interesting part is how you phrased it.

Oh that's what you meant.

You expect me, if I were Town, to not actively think I am town and post accordingly? If you're saying I am hinting at being Town because I am scum, answer why I would not say that as Town.

[JacksonVirgo]

Also I have small suspicion on HEM from the NK, and then instantly posting to back their own ass up since the top town didn't die.

[JacksonVirgo]

Also I have small suspicion on HEM from the NK, and then instantly posting to back their own ass up since the top town didn't die.

Are you referring to him saying we should assume Mafia is hunting PRs? If that's the case, I can see the potential, but it definitely needs a bit more than that to get me on the wagon since that just seems to be a decent assumption to make since they're the biggest threat to scum and they don't have to worry about sussing out who's town like we do them.
Not to say the possibility isn't there, but it definitely doesn't say anything definitive imo

Yeah exactly why I said small suspicion. It's nothing to push on right now.

[JacksonVirgo]

An early day will not happen if Town does not vote until they catch up. I will say this in a seperate post after this to make it more clear. We will force policy eliminate anybody that hammers early, this is without fail we will do this. Enforcing it like this will make sure nobody, not even scum will hammer and if a hammer does happen it will be from scum. It's early days so we can easily afford a 1 for 1 (a town death for a scum death). I hope this helps explain why an early hammer is unlikely to happen, and without votes nobody will be given the pressure needed for us to solve with.

A question for everyone:

Is it actually normal on MS to have a policy like this?

Regardless, this post doesn't add up.

JacksonVirgo: If such a policy is in place, why do you think an early hammer would necessarily come from scum? I don't see why a scum would willingly suicide that early in the game.

Yes it's policy. Anti-town play should be punished. And that post was specifically to avoid any scum hammers itself, not particularly to scum-read

[JacksonVirgo]

An early day will not happen if Town does not vote until they catch up. I will say this in a seperate post after this to make it more clear. We will force policy eliminate anybody that hammers early, this is without fail we will do this. Enforcing it like this will make sure nobody, not even scum will hammer and if a hammer does happen it will be from scum. It's early days so we can easily afford a 1 for 1 (a town death for a scum death). I hope this helps explain why an early hammer is unlikely to happen, and without votes nobody will be given the pressure needed for us to solve with.

A question for everyone:

Is it actually normal on MS to have a policy like this?

Regardless, this post doesn't add up.

JacksonVirgo: If such a policy is in place, why do you think an early hammer would necessarily come from scum? I don't see why a scum would willingly suicide that early in the game.

Yes it's policy. Anti-town play should be punished. And that post was specifically to avoid any scum hammers itself, not particularly to scum-read

That still doesn't address why you said an early hammer would be from scum.

You should learn to read. By stating that, scum would not hammer if they actively knew they would be eliminated. Scum would not hammer if they knew they would be eliminated the next day, therefore an early hammer D1 would come from Town, this also avoided the chance of an quick-elimination from either alignment as nobody "wants" to die. It was a *gambit* but it is now going to be enforced properly now that I've explained it and can no longer town-read from it.

[JacksonVirgo]

An early day will not happen if Town does not vote until they catch up. I will say this in a seperate post after this to make it more clear. We will force policy eliminate anybody that hammers early, this is without fail we will do this. Enforcing it like this will make sure nobody, not even scum will hammer and if a hammer does happen it will be from scum. It's early days so we can easily afford a 1 for 1 (a town death for a scum death). I hope this helps explain why an early hammer is unlikely to happen, and without votes nobody will be given the pressure needed for us to solve with.

A question for everyone:

Is it actually normal on MS to have a policy like this?

Regardless, this post doesn't add up.

JacksonVirgo: If such a policy is in place, why do you think an early hammer would necessarily come from scum? I don't see why a scum would willingly suicide that early in the game.

Yes it's policy. Anti-town play should be punished. And that post was specifically to avoid any scum hammers itself, not particularly to scum-read

That still doesn't address why you said an early hammer would be from scum.

You should learn to read. By stating that, scum would not hammer if they actively knew they would be eliminated. Scum would not hammer if they knew they would be eliminated the next day, therefore an early hammer D1 would come from Town, this also avoided the chance of an quick-elimination from either alignment as nobody "wants" to die. It was a *gambit* but it is now going to be enforced properly now that I've explained it and can no longer town-read from it.

That's not what you said.

"Enforcing it like this will make sure nobody, not even scum will hammer and if a hammer does happen it will be from scum."

Do you fuckin' read

[JacksonVirgo]

It was a *gambit*

[JacksonVirgo]

What was the gambit?

...
can you read my posts

[JacksonVirgo]

Like actually read them

[JacksonVirgo]

Yes. How is explaining a policy and saying "Enforcing it like this will make sure nobody, not even scum will hammer and if a hammer does happen it will be from scum" a gambit? What were you hoping to accomplish?

Are you fucking serious. If you actually READ MY FUCKIN POSTS you would know.


By saying that we will eliminate anyone that hammers, and I push it as serious, scum would not hammer. Therefore, it is very unlikely a speed-hammer will happen and if it does, I would know with very small doubt that the hammerer is Town.

[JacksonVirgo]

It's not a very effective gambit when you phrase it like that.

It's low effort, so I wouldn't *not* do it.

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: JacksonVirgo

Salty because I am calling you out? ;P

[JacksonVirgo]

Also I have small suspicion on HEM from the NK, and then instantly posting to back their own ass up since the top town didn't die.

what is this?

Exactly what I said. I have small suspicion on you for that.

[JacksonVirgo]

I slightly misread the context but I am still slightly at you. My original read was that I was expecting you to die, I did not think anyone else were to die but then you didn't which was weird to me, you then post about the NK probably being scum-hunting which pinged me as trying to make a reason why you didn't die. Which is still possible even with me re-reading the context mind you.

[JacksonVirgo]

Why me over navigatorv?

The newbies are asking me how to analyze NK and I told them how I analyze NK. What do you think about this with that context?

Right now I'm trying to suss out if you really believe what you're saying here.

I did say that I re-read the context and it doesn't fit that anymore, but I am still

[JacksonVirgo]

I think JV would benefit by this NK but I would imagine JV might be more skilled at hunting PR than this (because I think based on this thread, I can already spot better choices than JohnnyFarrar here) so he might never make this kill.

James on the other hand would also benefit from this NK. I already saw James trying to bait PR yesterday, so maybe they misinterpreted JohnnyFarrar's post as PR-indicative.

Orc would benefit the least because he's on JohnnyFarrar's direct line of sight and a Micc/JohnnyFarrar flip would immediately incriminate him for his "almost hammer".

If you think this, why are you voting me again?

[JacksonVirgo]

Nice

[JacksonVirgo]

Nice

Thank you for playing while you did.

No problem, I had to replace out to focus on personal things.