Newbie 2073: Parfait (Over)

[catboi]

Here's hoping this game goes better than the last one lol Nice to see Catboi's in here, I didn't get the chance to play much with him last time

I

may

have joined to snipe the game you were in, hope you're town again~

VOTE: Save The Dragons

[catboi]

I'll follow Meg's vote.

VOTE: GeneralWu

VOTE: catboi

That a for real vote, or just RVS playing around?

[catboi]

But it's still that stage of the game where most people haven't made more than like one or two posts.
And besides most other people are making a bunch of semi-relevant posts, too.

While this is technically true, it feels as though your content is aimed at discussing anything other than the game itself, and for page 2, that's fine enough for my vote.

Tbh the RVS stage seems practically designed to throw people off-track, so imma reserve judgement for when there's more to go on.

I don't want to meander too much into mafia theory, but the basic idea is it's just a way to get the ball rolling at the start of the game when you have to make something out of nothing. A lot of the time it produces noise and misunderstandings, occasionally it produces good results, regardless it's just a way of getting things started.

[catboi]

While this is technically true, it feels as though your content is aimed at discussing anything other than the game itself, and for page 2, that's fine enough for my vote.

I like going off topic during RVS.
It's sort of like the breakout rooms in Zoom school. Whenever you're in a breakout room with your friends, you never discuss the topic you're supposed to discuss.

I'm too old to understand this reference. *mumbles something about getting off my lawn*

That being said, while I have nothing against some early game friendliness, given that you have expressed yourself that "the faster you move out of the joke votes stage, the better.", I am skeptical of this defense from you.

[catboi]

Fair warning: this post is pure filler with no game-advancing content whatsoever.

I have had a lot of experience with mafia, but mostly in real-time formats. A lot of what applies to there doesn't apply here. (the games are played in a much different way.)
Although I do have some experience with the rolelists used on this site from another site that used some of the same rolelists, this kind of forum game is new.
Conclusion: I am going to mess up everything rather than be confused.
It's the perfect storm of thinking I know what I am doing and getting everything wrong.

Played on chat-based sites, then? I started off the same way, played a few years on the aforementioned Epicmafia (RIP) before trying forum games. There's a bit of a learning curve when it comes to analyzing posts but if you're familiar with the general gameplay it's not too tough. (although I still haven't learned how to scumhunt, Lmao)

This has nothing to do with the game; but for the people with anime avatars, what are the names of the characters in your avatars? I'm really curious.

This is where I get exposed as a fraud - it's a character from a visual novel that hasn't been translated to English. I just like the way he looks!

This has nothing to do with the game; but for the people with anime avatars, what are the names of the characters in your avatars? I'm really curious.

For mine, their name is Raqio. They're from a game called Gnosia, which is basically half visual novel and half single player Mafia in space. Mafia vs AI sounds like it wouldn't work, but all characters have legitimate tells while still being programmed to try to trick you. It's honestly really fun and intriguing, and I highly recommend it to anyone who enjoys Mafia style games.

I saw that streamed once before, interesting concept but felt like it being mostly procedural would get old when I'm used to the dynamism of playing with real people.

why am i getting called STG? STD is fine been called that since my first newbie years and years ago

Sexually Transmitted Disease [STD]
is worse than Save the Goats [STG]

I mean, what do you think his user title is referencing?

[catboi]

As an aside, I know we're still early in the game but I want to hear more from Catboi and StG. StG just isn't saying much, and Catboi is a really strong town player from what I've seen so I'm surprised he hasn't been more active. 2061 was a very impressive and entertaining town win and I've been hoping to get in a game with him ever since reading it.

Oh gosh, didn't realize I had a fan. ｡(*^▽^*)ゞ

For real though, for most of that game I felt like I was a huge mess, and only barely recovered at the end, in part because I was in a position where the two other town players were likely clear to me and so I was best positioned to figure out the truth. In the newbie games I've played since returning to the site, the early game has not been a strength for me - I'm still trying to work out the best way to provoke discussion and move things forward without dominating the conversation or causing misunderstandings. I work better when there's more evidence to analyze, which is why I like replacing in. My approach to this game is still undecided, in an ideal world I'd hang back from an ivory tower and watch things play out before passing judgments, but if the game isn't moving enough I'll have to nudge things things along

(as for why I was inactive, though, I didn't feel like posting on friday night)


For you, anyway, I feel like most of your posts have been giving off something of a 'neutral' vibe - you've been avoiding ruffling any feathers with the stuff you've been saying and that won't do for me. I want to hit me with your strongest opinion right now - if you absolutely HAD to guess someone as scum right now, who would it be?

[catboi]

GeneralWu just seems to be trying to pocket people, i'll hold off on voting though as it looks like they're E-2

Hmm, where do you see him as trying to "pocket" anyone? I don't really get that feeling from his play at all.

[catboi]

Wu is probably the scummiest of the people that have posted so far, but I don't know if that's just me being easily influenced. One thing I will say is the assumption that scum won't bus day 1 is false, that's actually a somewhat effective strategy in certain games, especially on this forum (at least that's what I was told by one of the SE players in my last game). All it takes for a mafia victory is one tricky and charismatic scum player, so having a partner isn't technically necessary, especially since that'd make it easier for you to have more influence on who dies since you'd have complete control over NK

Hmm, do you think he's the scummiest because you agree with what others have been saying about him? Go into a little more detail about this.

(Also sorry for writing paragraphs all the time, I like to go into detail woth my thoughts and can go overboard sometimes ^^')

No need to apologize, your posts aren't that long at all and it's always better to make yourself clear with what you're saying. d=(´▽｀)=b I prefer that to someone who spams a bunch of one-liners (although I will sometimse double-post if I feel the things I'm posting are separate thoughts that don't really go together)

What's pocket again?
I remember hearing this word before but I haven't played mafia in so long that I've forgotten what it means.

"pocketing" generally refers to scum trying to get a town player on their side by doing things like agreeing with them, defending them, complimenting them, anything to get someone to view them favorably. It's a curious accusation to me because most newbie scum players don't particularly aim to pocket people, and, well, if your aim right now were pocketing people you'd be doing a very poor job of it seeing as you're the leading wagon on page 5.

[catboi]

Can you explain those vibes?

[catboi]

Also, do you mind if I ask what your home forum is and what games are like there?

[catboi]

Well, my thoughts on you have gone from probably town to scummy to confused in a very short period of time.

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

Meh, not really ready to have someone at E-1 just yet. Read hasn't moved significantly on GeneralWu but I have some reservations.

[catboi]

My feeling on shwinnebago's first read was newbie jumping in with an underexplained scumread on a player who wasn't discussed much is +town. That was undercut by him then accusing a bunch of people in short succession, but I'm fairly sure those accusations aren't really serious, given it was on 4 people for basically nothing. I think I have a tendency to read that sort of trollish playing as town, although that isn't inherently true, that kind of play

can

come from scum that simply doesn't care. My lean right now is toward town but that's a very slight guess.

Roden's vote on shwinnebago pinged me in the same way it did save the dragons - "opportunistic" isn't quite the words I'd use to describe it, but it felt

off

- more like it was a jump on someone who is playing "weird" rather than scummy, the kind of square peg/round hole that makes for easy misyeet fodder in newbie games. I don't find the reasoning about them being inactive particularly compelling - in particular, if someone is not used to checking the site regularly because they're not an obsessive like me, they can easily forget to post. I've been in enough newbie games to know that people from sites with higher activity often simply get bored. So, to me Roden's vote felt like a bit of a "gotcha" that I'd expect to see from scum here. I wasn't particularly a fan of the quick pivot to generalwu, who happens to be the leading wagon, either.

That

felt opportunistic.

[catboi]

I do think at this point I'm pretty comfortable with calling MegAzumarill town, they're doing the things I expect of a newer player who is legitimately scumhunting and trying to move the game forward.

[catboi]

Cold meta skim suggests there's a decent chance Roden is scum here~

[catboi]

Sigh. I can sense you're going to be a lot of fun to deal with.

[catboi]

If my playstyle is interfering with your having fun, or if you are town-aligned and think my playstyle is unhelpful for town, then you can certainly quorum me to solve the problem! It won't help you quorum a wolf though.

That said, I do think that quoruming me would provide a decent amount of information right now, given that I have managed to elicit reactions from at least catboi, GeneralWu, navigatorv, and maybe someone else who I've forgotten about (can't really be bothered to go back and read carefully).

So preemptively, you're welcome!

That said the day doesn't end for like 10 more years so a lot is likely to transpire in the intervening period.

I think the playstyle you seem to be using can be incredibly frustrating to deal with, as the overconfident, underexplained reads type of play is very difficult to work with. (This is kind of how T3 was in my previous game with him). However, I don't plan on voting someone out day 1 for being unorthodox/difficult, those tend to be mis-elims more often than not.

I do think, finally, that this post is the one that moves you out of null territory and into >rand town.

[catboi]

This is wild lol. You just called me out because you said I was being too neutral. But now that I'm actually trying to take a stance and move the game forward, that's pinging you? What do you suggest we do if we're not allowed to pressure people or even ask questions?

Little bit defensive here? Yes, okay, you did make votes to move the game forward, but my feeling was that those votes, and the reasoning for them, were votes I could see coming from scum here. I'm hardly suggesting you shouldn't be allowed to pressure people or ask questions, and to say that in response seems fairly hyperbolic. By the same token, I'm just pressuring you right now. I'm not married to the read or anything.

[catboi]

Here is my primary motivation for voting catboi: catboi is positioning himself as town leader.

I find town leaders to be suspicious.

I hope this is a more satisfying reason than previously!

Oh my goodness, you're one of

those

. I get why you think that sort of thing is suspicious, and yet, I don't think I've been all that leader-y this game? I'm certainly not really

trying

to do that, though that is a role I try to take sometimes as both alignments.

[catboi]

I mean, you could point out where you see me as trying to act like a town leader?

[catboi]

@Roden:

What's your read on me?

[catboi]

My problem here is that, yes, this is a newbie game, but you've played Mafia long enough that you should know that one vote =/= execution, only a hammer does. My vote on Shwinnebego was the only vote on him and I was the only person trying to apply pressure. He wasn't in any danger of getting flash wagon'd, let alone eliminated. Not only that, but Wu clearly already had a wagon going, and T3 had two votes on him and was within wagon range. If I'm scum they're the more clear choice here, since Wu already has suspicion on him and I already said I had suspicions on T3.

It's not like I'm just bullshitting either. You have a read on Shwinnebego now that you didn't have before. I don't see how you can genuinely scum read me while also benefiting from the pressure I applied which you scum read me for.

Well, I'm not really sure your vote was what provoked the response from shwinn that lead me to read him as town, and even if it

were

, that doesn't make you inherently town, you know? I know Shwinn wasn't in danger of getting executed, that wasn't my problem with your vote - my problem was more along the line that your vote felt like one scum would make, going after someone on a technicality like them being inactive when they're used to shorter games, which, as I said, felt like a "gotcha", when in reality it's very likely he just wasn't that interested in the game regardless of alignment.

After that last post, it's not looking good. Scum reading somebody for applying pressure on a non-presence doesnt feel like a town thought process at all. However, I think it's bad for town if I OMGUS tunnel you for that, and I don't want to counter argument further while I'm still in a defensive mind set since that screwed me over in my last town game. I'm just gonna stand back for now.

*Shrug* As I've said, wasn't about you applying pressure necessarily, but the way an reason you did it.


I don't scum read you any more, though.


VOTE: GeneralWu

[catboi]

Catboi, I am still in the process of reading though what I've missed, but you've been in the game long enough to know you should be calling attention to the fact that vote puts GeneralWu at E-1, and the next vote will be hammer, right?

I'm paying so much attention to the game that I know the mod's VC at the top of the page is incorrect, because T3 changed his vote to Roden. (I have contacted the mod to correct this)

[catboi]

My problem here is that, yes, this is a newbie game, but you've played Mafia long enough that you should know that one vote =/= execution, only a hammer does. My vote on Shwinnebego was the only vote on him and I was the only person trying to apply pressure. He wasn't in any danger of getting flash wagon'd, let alone eliminated. Not only that, but Wu clearly already had a wagon going, and T3 had two votes on him and was within wagon range. If I'm scum they're the more clear choice here, since Wu already has suspicion on him and I already said I had suspicions on T3.

It's not like I'm just bullshitting either. You have a read on Shwinnebego now that you didn't have before. I don't see how you can genuinely scum read me while also benefiting from the pressure I applied which you scum read me for.

Well, I'm not really sure your vote was what provoked the response from shwinn that lead me to read him as town, and even if it

were

, that doesn't make you inherently town, you know? I know Shwinn wasn't in danger of getting executed, that wasn't my problem with your vote - my problem was more along the line that your vote felt like one scum would make, going after someone on a technicality like them being inactive when they're used to shorter games, which, as I said, felt like a "gotcha", when in reality it's very likely he just wasn't that interested in the game regardless of alignment.

I think there's a misunderstanding here or maybe I wasn't clear enough with my intentions. Considering T3 and Wu also reacted similarly as you, it's probably the latter. I wasn't trying to get Shwinn elim'd or even really get a wagon going, I was basically just pointing an empty gun at him and telling him to explain. I wasn't trying to provoke an inactive player to post more, but just get him to clear up the situation. What bugged me is that nobody seemed to want to let him and kept trying to speak for him.

After that last post, it's not looking good. Scum reading somebody for applying pressure on a non-presence doesnt feel like a town thought process at all. However, I think it's bad for town if I OMGUS tunnel you for that, and I don't want to counter argument further while I'm still in a defensive mind set since that screwed me over in my last town game. I'm just gonna stand back for now.

*Shrug* As I've said, wasn't about you applying pressure necessarily, but the way an reason you did it.


I don't scum read you any more, though.


VOTE: GeneralWu

Are you getting bad vibes from Wu? Or do you think he just hasn't really done much to get a town read yet?

It certainly didn't look like you were just pressuring shwinn to post more - you specifically called him out on his absence in 115, saying it "doesn't really add up". Looked like a serious suspicion to me.

Having decided my suspicion on you might be misplaced, I moved back to my original read, because I feel like despite the game kicking into a higher gear, a mjaority of GeneralWu's posts still aren't really scumhunting or saying anything useful.

[catboi]

I like how Val has started off. Need to see T3's response here.

[catboi]

It certainly didn't look like you were just pressuring shwinn to post more - you specifically called him out on his absence in 115, saying it "doesn't really add up". Looked like a serious suspicion to me.

That's what I'm saying though. It

was

a serious suspicion. It doesn't mean I want him gone ASAP.

Right, I think I'm going to just chalk this up to misunderstanding how you were approaching things/reading too much into a vote at this point.

[catboi]

I feel like you're avoiding actually addressing val's accusation toward you.

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

[catboi]

Because

1. It is still early enough in the day that I feel there is productive discussion to be had still.
2. I don't want anyone hammered without a claim, that's just bad form in newbie games.
3. I am hardly confident enough in my read of GeneralWu that I want him to be hammered right now.

[catboi]

That’s a highly suspicious move. Putting vote pressure on Wu and then hopping off after I threatened a hammer?

I’m struggling to read that behavior through a town lens.

...are you kidding me right now?

[catboi]

Explain what my motivation as scum is to vote someone up and then unvote when you threaten to hammer out of boredom. I would have gladly pretended to be inactive and let you lolhammer, then pin the blame on you day 2 after a townflip. (－‸ლ)

[catboi]

Well obviously You are scum and so is General Wu

Can’t be hammering your evil buddy just when you were starting to create a plausible rift between the two of you before the discussion organically shifted towards sussing other posters without too much blatant pressure from you, as you remain townread by most of the thread for your ostensibly earnest hunting, now can we?

I was under the impression you were townreading generalwu. Do you believe that to not be the case anymore?

[catboi]

shwinn, are you trolling? （；¬＿¬)

[catboi]

Cold meta skim suggests there's a decent chance Roden is scum here~

"Cold" meta skim?

Perhaps it is because I don't understand what that term means, but I've had a quick look-see at Roden's previous games myself (and I have just lost a game to scum!Roden) and I'm not seeing anything obvious.

Can you give us a breif outline of what you thought you might be seeing when you posted this, and if you've changed your mind since?

Cold as in I haven't played with him before, I'm just looking at past games. I was also not doing a detailed dive of any sort like I'd do in late-game, just looking quickly for any characteristic patterns I thought I might see. Since that point I decided his response to pressure was more likely town-indicative. I don't really care to elaborate on a read I no longer hold at this point in time.

[catboi]

The "something feels off" read on me from navigator is probably town-indicative, in general a townie playing a game with someone they have mild familiarity with is going to be skeptical and cautious, I expect as scum they'd probably just try to stay out of my crosshairs, call me town and move on. Just intuition based on general patterns people tend to have.

[catboi]

T3: Probably the most constantly changing read for me this game. He's been somewhat hard to pin down due to his posts seeming to switch from genuine to weird and random with no real rhyme or reason, but between Val's posts and the ISO, he's currently a scum-lean in my book. There's a somewhat decent chance that his post pattern (or lack thereof) might be an attempt to intentionally make him hard to read without coming off as a complete troll or active lurker.

From brief experience with town T3, underexplained reads are the norm from him, which is why I was a little skeptical of Val's case on him, but I haven't liked his response to that pressure at all. The way he's only offering short one-liners that only barely sort of address what val was saying make him look flustered, and added to that I just feel like other people have been...more town, at this point. I think I'm due for taking a look at his ISO in full, I've not been paying him much attention as most of his posts felt

fine

in the moment but he's maybe the one uncertain point in my reads to this point.

Shwin: Pretty sure at this point he's just a troll. None of his posts have had anything of value barring maybe his reads list (which is questionable at best), his votes are for the most asinine reasons, and he's all but stated that he doesn't really have an interest in the actual game itself. Tbh he's made the game super un-fun to play which is partly why I've been so quiet and I think from now on, unless he starts taking things seriously or subs out, I'm just going to ignore what he says just because the chances of it actually being worth the attention are astronomically low.

my brief hopes that he was simply an aggressive and unorthodox player were dashed to pieces last night as he just becomes more irrational and anti-town. while i would concur that his antics have become annoying, there's seven other players in the game, don't worry so much about him and just talk to the rest of us ((≡^⚲͜^≡))

I wish I had more to talk to you about at this point, but it feels like we're relatively close-ish in terms of reads, which leaves me unsure of what to actually say to you.

[catboi]

I don't really care to elaborate on a read I no longer hold at this point in time.

Perhaps so, but I'm asking because I think it would help me sort your slot if I knew there was

something

in this, rather than just something you threw out into the wind with literally nothing to back it up. That is a reasonable assumption I could be tempted to make, given I couldn't see anything and you aren't wanting to answer.

I'm not asking for details, just a one line summary of what the characteristic pattern you thought you might have saw, in general terms, will do the job for me.

My feeling was in his town games his analysis came a lot more freely, his opinions were unfettered, there was more aggression where in his scum games he was more cautious in his play, more hesitant to give opinions, he'd dispute people's reads but was lacking in his own conclusions, there just wasn't as much drive. But, this was just a limited sample and this game started fairly slow, it's possible that was why things looked different to me and I jumped to a conclusion too quickly. As I said I think his response to pressure is more likely to come from town though and was similar to how he acted in another game, doubt he's purposefully replicating that to get townread as he seemed...very tilted by 2069 and replaced out so it's not like he'd expect that acting the same way would help him here.

[catboi]

Yeah, T3 is scummy. I think stuff like the overconfidence behind that navigatorv read doesn't feel wholly authentic, and he feels less tuned to the big picture stuff, too many of his comments are theoretical interjections that don't add anything, there's a lack of attention to most of the game being given, feels mostly like talking just to talk. The fake crumbing thing doesn't mean much to me but I feel like val's on to something.

{MegAzumarill}
{Val, nav, Roden}
{Save the Dragons} (Gut vibe that the Roden vote was from a town mindset because I had a similar reaction to the post he disliked)
{shwinn?} (not even really sure where to place him at this point)
{GeneralWu, T3}

[catboi]

I've done things like that before, Lol. Sometimes I'll hold back a read because it's not fully developed, or I want to see how that person interacts with others before outing a read on them, or see if anyone else comes to the same read as me. I actually got heat in a previous newbie game for going "I'm not going to out my reads right away", Lmao. I just hadn't wanted to dominate the conversation and let people do their own thing. Now I try to be more open and swinn accuse me of "trying to be a leader".

That statement in and of itself is null to me, it's more his overall presence in the game and his response to your case that are scummy to me.

speaking of which...

VOTE: T3

[catboi]

You could...not selfvote for no reason? That's just playing against win condition regardless of what side you're on.

My issue with you is that not that you disagree with me or think differently, but that you don't seem to have any consistency or sense to what you're doing, you claimed generalwu was a townread, then threatened to hammer him, and when I unvoted, suggested we were partners. I question you on this and you can't even be bothered to give an explanation.

The overall impression you give off is that you're bored and screwing around because you don't want to play anymore.

[catboi]

Have you any opinion on his 'I won't disclose my read on catboi', catboi?

I'm struggling to think of a town justifaction for both withholding a read, and saying you are withholding a read without prompting, and I can't think of one.

I can see some occasions when you might feel it would be +town to withold the reasons for a read, in niche circumstances, but the actual read on a specific player?

Maybe there is something in your wider experience on the site that gives some idea as to what is behind that.

Honestly I'm just not very smart and don't know how to articulate reasons for my actions very well lol, there's not a lot more to it!

I hope it's still okay for me to play this game even if I don't know what I'm doing!

...that was a question meant for T3. Why did you answer it?

[catboi]

Well, not meant for T3, but about T3 specifically and a post he made. Which was clear from the context of our surrounding discussion. I have no idea why you read that post and assumed it was about you >_>

[catboi]

I don't think shwinniebego/roden is w/w. If they're both scum, I don't think they're very coordinated.
A few of Roden's posts seem off (like 115, which sounds suspicious), but shwinniebego is probably the scummiest as of right now, though.

catboi is acting very towny right now because he could've just kept his vote on me and let shwinniebego hammer me for no reason, but he chose not to.

Also, save the dragons has posted mostly only one-liners as of right now. It doesn't seem like he's joining the discussion, and that's a bit suspicious.

Would you mind summarizing your reads in a list for me?

[catboi]

I don't think shwinn is especially likely to flip scum at this point but I would not be

stunned

if he did. All else being equal I don't think killing an overtly antitown player day 1 is the worst thing (and I hate using that label in a newbie game but there is really no other way to describe shwinn). However, I think T3 is more likely to actually flip scum at this moment.

[catboi]

I feel that T3 is town because he's trying to solve the game.

Where do you feel he has actually done this?

[catboi]

@catboi these posts make T3 seem towny. He's trying to scumhunt, though I don't necessarily agree with his reasons for his reads.

Three posts? The most recent of which came on page 5? I mean, the nav read doesn't even make sense, honestly, and the one on Roden is fairly shallow - making an offhand comment joking about being policy eliminated on a day 1 scumflip isn't hard for someone of either alignment to make.

[catboi]

Instead I feel like StD is a better vote, they overall don't provide much to town.

This is a really thin reason for a vote this far into the day. He has stated reads on a number of players, even if they didn't have much elaboration on them. Do you think his actual content is scummy?

[catboi]

From observation that feels like it's largely his playstyle. I don't think it's town/scum-indicative either way. I don't mind asking him to explain things you want clarified, of course, I just think that "lack of evidence" is, in and of itself, not really scummy from him, odd as it may seem.

[catboi]

General Wu plays confidently, and attracted a quick pileup of votes, many of which melted away. My sense is genuinely that a quick pile-on followed by a quick melt-away is indeed suspicious, as it speaks to some coordinated action behind the scenes. While my specific sus on catboi for unvoting when I threatened to hammer was largely sneered at as irrational, trollish, and inattentive to the longer-term dynamics of a game like this (namely, that we lose information by truncating Day 1 prematurely), I maintain that the overall dynamic that I pointed out - whether or not we agree that catboi in particular ought to be the target of suspicion that emerges from said dynamic - is valid, and merits attention. Moreover, I also maintain that without the legitimate threat of a hammer on a player, vote pressure relatively early on during Day 1 becomes meaningless, and so I do not apologize for my jocular hammer threat, nor do I concede that it was unambiguously a silly thing to proffer. I do not see tremendous value in debating this exact matter further, but I hope this makes sense to at least some of you!

In a game with only 2 scum, the idea of behind the scenes coordination doesn't really hold much weight - that kind of thing rarely happens in my experience, most scum teams don't plan that much but are generally more cautious to not appear as though they're working together. That kind of thing might be more common if you're used to fast-paced, chaotic games with larger mafia teams, I'm just saying I do not think that is what happened here. I also maintain my reasons for unvoting are soundly protown.

I disagree heavily with the notion that the threat of a hammer is the only pressure that provoke a useful response from a player but that's fine if you don't want to debate it further. I feel like the vote movement and wagons have been plenty useful in getting reactions already.

Generally as scum you have an agenda, you decide when to push who and for what reason in advance. You don't usually call out half the town as likely evil. It's not that scum never scumreads a lot of people early on (it can be pretty effective at instilling disruption), but in my experience it happens more to townies.
I also recognize that my playstyle may indeed come across as suspicious to someone looking in.

Meh, it's always beneficial as scum to keep your options open, I've had times where I wanted to do nothing but attack people but remembered you actually need to not look like you're okay with killing absolutely everyone. Of course, someone can be paranoid town as well, I'm just not sure having a lot of scumreads is a tell either way to me. It's dependent on the playstyle and attitude of the person with the reads.

Something about shwinn's approach shifting toward being serious and verbose after being illogical and terse actually has me a bit on edge but still probably going to defer to my instincts and not vote there.

[catboi]

i'm not big on long posts but every once in a while i'll pull something out of my butt

You're the best poster in this thread as far as I'm concerned, regardless of your alignment! I commend your playstyle, keep it up.

Now this post seems like an attempt at pocketing.

Do you think shwinn is scummy? You didn't actually give any suspects in your reads list earlier.

[catboi]

what's v/la

vacation/limited access, when a player lets the mod and other players in the game know they will be inactive for a period of time.

[catboi]

You're doing that thing where you fake unnatural confidence on a townread beyond what you could reasonably have.

[catboi]

Don't love generalwu's readslist as it felt very soft and the logic for his read on T3 isn't good but I actually strongly prefer a T3 vote to a Wu vote at this moment in time, think T3's posts have been incredibly scummy.

It's a combination of too many empty theory-based posts, deflecting with his defense to Val, and the bizarre, overconfident reads I don't believe are natural. 315 in particular is bad, the argument that Wu is "trying to pocket" is just repeating what STD said earlier, while his reads being based on who SRs him aren't even true - me, nav, and meg expressed scumreads on him, but he's not scumreading us in return, his attention was specifically focused on Roden/shwinn, and his read on Roden changed in response to an identifiable moment in the thread, not just Roden scumreading Wu. Could GeneralWu-scum be using that as a pretext to scumread Roden? Maybe, but to claim his reads are just based on how people are reading him like T3 does is an overt lie.

Who do I have to beg for some help here?

?(ﾉ)・´ω・(ヾ)

[catboi]

This is not a criticism directed at you in particular, as you're not the only one who has done it, but you should avoid openly speculating on who is/is not a power role in-thread. Doing so, in and of itself, is giving information away to the mafia, because you have effectively just outed yourself as vanilla town. I don't think it's a good idea, in general, to hold off a vote on someone who is being scummy because you think they might be a power role - doing so is basically giving someone a free pass for scummy play, and val has already pointed out T3 abuses this sort of thing by fake crumbing power roles as scum. If they are in fact a town power role, it's better to have the confirmation of a claim so you can then reset your reads and look elsewhere with new information in hand. Scum will often claim a power role under pressure, anyway, but outing it at least brings up the possibility of a counter claim.

Granted, I have mistakenly scumread PRs before, including masons, but I would never let a potential PR read stop me from pushing on someone in a game if I scumread them. (I would try to defend a PR read if I thought they were town regardless, but I wouldn't speculate on it inthread).

I also would assume shwinn would not out a read of "now seeming increasingly evil" on T3 in 172 were they actually teamed as masons.

This rids me of basically any doubt that you're town this game, though, so that's nice. （=´∇｀=）


(that came out way longer than I expected it to)

[catboi]

Think T3/shwinn is almost never a thing either but don't have time to go into it right now + would only be relevant if one flips red.

[catboi]

I had a longer post written out, but after re-reading it I realized it wasn't really that helpful and could end up being anti-town. I'll just cut it short and say that I only openly speculated about PRs because the alternative would likely make my intentions look off. If I pushed either of them without clarifying why I really was doing so, or why I was also hesitant to do so, my intentions would rightfully be questioned. I wouldn't blame anyone for scum reading me in that scenario.

Sometimes you just have to be vague or ambiguous about your thinking if part of your read involves a PR guess. Of course, ultimately I'm glad you explained it here because it let me dispute it and gave me a better read on you, where if you'd been more vague I might not have picked up on this. But to provide an example, in my past game where I did realize two players acting in obvious coordination were masons (because they teamed up to quickhammer scum), I came up with explanations to townread them that didn't involve outright saying "they're obviously masons".It managed to work, because although we missed on day 2, the mafia NKed a VT instead of a mason. o(^・x・^)o

In addition, I don't think Shwinn scum reading T3 means much since neither are truly pushing for the other to be an elim, so it reads more like distancing to me.

Would agree with that assessment, but T3 strongly asserting that shwinn is town looks like a TMI read to me.

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

If that is actually true I am rather annoyed at him bluffing a scumread on you but it means things make a lot more sense to me and I have an opportunity to fully reset my reads.

[catboi]

GeneralWu (4): Roden, MegAzumarill, catboi, T3

stray thought, but was looking back at votecounts because I wasn't sure if who had/hadn't been pushing generalwu, and that wagon feels pure? I don't think that's a fool-proof metric as I've seen and been part of an all-town wagon on town, but that was partly motivated by deadline pressure and this decidedly wasn't. Will think more tomorrow.

[catboi]

What a shock.

You heard it here first, folks - I'm pretty sure catboi is T3s scumbuddy.

Details to follow, but I'm on my phone right now.

Oh boy - I would absolutely love to go on a big self-righteous rant on how all of day 1 *never* happens like this if I'm scum with T3. You have some things to learn, still, if you think that could be the case.

[catboi]

I'm still thinking StD may be scum, you guys keep saying that him posting one liners and such is normal, that doesn't really make him seem townie in my eyes. At best it is NAI.
I would really like them to share reads, especially since if they get Nked we will lose that input forever.

We aren't hammering yet because we can still get meaningful discussion done before the hammer falls.

First line is a very good point, and it was what I was

trying

to get at woth my posting earlier - I don't think STD having mostly underexplained reads is a scumtell, but writing him off as town because he always plays like that would be a mistake.

Second line is a bit puzzling - do you really think he's at risk of getting NKed based on how he's playing? Why are his reads important if he may be scum?

[catboi]

I am starting to think Val might be T3’s partner.

I find their engagement around T3, and also with respect to me, to be disingenuous.

This is probably town if only because I don't expect scum to go barreling after val here, they'd have more awareness that calling him scum him is suicide.


Also because T3 was TMIing him as town earlier, but yeah.

[catboi]

As far as T3's partner goes, it wouldn't be a plot twist if it turned out to be Catboi. I'll have to reread his ISO but I did mention having reservations about him earlier.

Like I said to Val, would love for one of you to go into this, because I very much enjoy being able to talk about ~*^my scum game^*~ and how this isn't it.

[catboi]

Hammer me. Go for it.

Sorry fella, you fake self-hammer, you have to pay the penalty of an extended twilight where all the town gets to talk about who they think your teammate is. Good lesson for a newbie game!

[catboi]

Well, frankly, I am confused by it. If you aren't sure, and want to consult with teammates, why not do it BEFORE dropping the vote?

I think its your asking of the question "why does a Town!T3 claim mason with me" was perfomative given how quick the vote came after the 'not-mason' claim. Others can make thier own judgements on the matter.

The meta on this site is genuinely a bit baffling.

I’ve been told that (1) we put votes on people to pressure them but wouldn’t seriously hammer them prematurely and (2) by the time you vote you are so committed to your decision that you are signaling that you are not even interested in discussion any more.

Which is it, people?

(Extremely stoned philosophy bro voice) but like, what IS a vote, man?

Well, Val's not me, I don't have the same thoughts on the matter. I think val sees a disconnect between you voting and then questioning others about T3's motivation for doing this. I don't have a problem with it, myself.

[catboi]

I think val and shwinn are basically never T3's partner here. I think Roden is very, very unlikely to be as well, because what he did would be one of the most bizarre distancing plays I've seen. Meg and nav are both towny by play, although I need to review them. Remembering T3's read on nav, though, that was likely TMI as well.

I don't really think T3's push on GeneralWu is at all clearing for general, and his defense of T3 remains not good. STD also doesn't have anything to make me read him as town, and he had a not-great read on T3, looking at his ISO. I need to check back in the thread for context.

[catboi]

Roden, T3 and Catboi are my townreads atm. My scumreads are navigatorv, std and Wu.

And T3 appears to be avoiding confronting the accusation made at him by Val89, although the accusation doesn't hold a whole lot of weight imo.

Meg, I'd like to ask you both why you had T3 as a townread early, and why you didn't feel the accusations by Val held much weight.


(Apologies for the spam, but I'm coming to these thoughts as I read along and posting them first thing, I don't think I'd have a good way of composing them in a wall)

[catboi]

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure, and I don't have fluffy ears.

[catboi]

Think T3/shwinn is almost never a thing either but don't have time to go into it right now + would only be relevant if one flips red.

Do you think now would be a good time for this, catboi?

Can I take your 455 to mean you are offering up StD and GeneralWu as your likely candidates for T3's partner?

I don't think the way T3 was overconfidently defending shwinn is likely how he'd treat a teammate who was getting run up and playing so weirdly. Far more likely he was white-knighting a townie he saw as possibly doomed anyway. He's far more likely to bus.

Those two would be me primary guesses as of right now, yes.


Do you want to get into why you think I'm scum with T3?

[catboi]

Nearly posthumous reads:
shwinn, Nav - ocklocklocktown
std - town
Val - lean scum
Wu - scum

everyone else - shit idk

Not sure how I'm unsortable when I caught scum Day 1 without actually outing Masons. I'm most likely the NK tonight unless scum thinks they can convince everyone I went for an extremely awkward bus. But tbh I'm pretty fine with dying tonight, after how I started off today I was expecting to be an easy mis-elim, so I'll take this trade.

As far as T3's partner goes, it wouldn't be a plot twist if it turned out to be Catboi. I'll have to reread his ISO but I did mention having reservations about him earlier.

Like I said to Val, would love for one of you to go into this, because I very much enjoy being able to talk about ~*^my scum game^*~ and how this isn't it.

I'm saving it for Day 2, and I think it would be smart for Val to do the same. If you aren't scum then the true last scum wants to keep one of us alive that has the better case against you for the mis-elim. If you are scum then I don't want to give you any info on who you should kill.

If you think there's a possibility you'll be NKed, you should probably be making your case on who's scum right now, sine you're not going to be able to post it when you're dead!

[catboi]

In other words, you know that outting yourself as VT was bad for town, and yet that's exactly what you did:

UNVOTE:

If that is actually true I am rather annoyed at him bluffing a scumread on you but it means things make a lot more sense to me and I have an opportunity to fully reset my reads.

What makes you sure I wasn't treating the claim credulously to hide my role? I'm not claiming anything.

[catboi]

Val, the big problem with your case against me is that it is entirely based on my reaction to the fakeclaim, and significantly ignores the surrounding game context. You need to look at how the course of the day has gone, and ask yourself: do I

really

play the game this way if T3 is my partner?

For a significant part of the day, you were the only one pushing T3. Most people brushed you aside. I was the first one to take your case seriously. When there was potential for the wagons to be forced between shwinnebego and generalwu, not only did I decide to instead vote T3, I actively tried to rally votes on T3 with 328. Suffice to say, without me I don't think the T3 wagon happens.

Now, of course, you can say bussing happens. I bus a lot. However, one thing I do not do is bus unnecessarily on day 1 in a 9p. I

despise

when people bus for no good reason, as it's strategically poor. In a 9p game, losing a partner early risks putting you in autoloss from getting outed by a power role. Now, you can claim that T3's fakeclaim was designed to fish out people's roles, but the fact is, claiming mason is absolutely idiotic - it leads to a guaranteed elimination on T3, without even possibly forcing a counter claim. I would have instructed him to claim literally anything else, were I teamed with him. That is simply not a play that happens if I am scum, ever.

[catboi]

Catboi, that is a scenario I am considering; although I think if that was the case, i think a) you would have been better served trying to shut down the speculation when it was clear it was inducing others to speculate. b) you should know not to make statements like that today - nobody is going to be pushing your slot to be today's lim, so it can wait for tomorrow and retain maximum ambiguity.

I mean, regardless, in this situation, all you have established is that my reaction to the claim would be bad play. Why does it make me more likely to be scum than town?

[catboi]

I am actively appalled at T3 pulling a stunt like that in a newbie game. I don't have deeper thoughts on the game right now unfortunately, my head is in disarray.

[catboi]

The only likely case in which catboi would unvote me as scum is if shwinnie is also scum.

You are going to have to talk me through your logic on this one, because I don't see how that works.

Assuming catboi and shwinnie are both scum:
Catboi doesn't unvote me when shwinnie threatens to hammer. I get hammered and I flip town. People now get suspicious of shwinnie because he hammered a townie for no reason.

You know, while I think it's a risky strategy, I probably encourage my partner to hammer in a newbie game if there's an opportunity because a free elimination with a shortened day is pro-scum and in a newbie game it can possibly be spun with the excuse of not understanding how the game is played on this site.

[catboi]

i guess it's just T3 here? i don't really see a good reason why town!T3 claims mason tbh.

Actually, here's a take: this is a post coming from someone who knows T3 will flip town.

VOTE: Save the Dragons

[catboi]

Also, question: what do we do about the other mason?

The other mason should not out today. No one should speculate about who the other mason is. If you have an idea of who it is, you should not say so and try to avoid even hinting at it. If we mis-eliminate today, the other mason should claim if they're alive on day 3 as it'll be ELO. If we get scum, they can remain hidden still, in my opinion.

[catboi]

i guess it's just T3 here? i don't really see a good reason why town!T3 claims mason tbh.

Actually, here's a take: this is a post coming from someone who knows T3 will flip town.

VOTE: Save the Dragons

How come?

The language is almost too passive, it doesn't have the feeling I and other people did where we really jumped on T3 for fakeclaiming, it's kind of quizzical in the "oh huh why is he doing this", like he knows T3 isn't scum but has to push him anyway.

[catboi]

(unrelated to anything, but I'm sad nav died n1. I was looking forawrd to playing with them and they got cut off short without ever being able to really get into the game)

[catboi]

catboi - went to some lengths to not vote T3

I would like to clarify that Iwas not going to any lengths to not vote T3, the only reason I did not vote him was because I thought he was confirmed scum who attempted to self-hammer and failed. I refrained from voting in the hopes we could discuss and partner hunt further while all the townies were alive. I suppose that's egg on my face, but I really did believe he was conf-scum at that point in time. I probably hammer soone if I know he's town and think there's any possibility he might escape.

In general, I find on/off wagon reasoning to not be the most valuable - in one of my games there was an all-town elimination wagon on town on day 1. However, I don't, in principle, disagree with your vote here and feel at this point STD hasn't gotten enough heat.

[catboi]

stray thought, but was looking back at votecounts because I wasn't sure if who had/hadn't been pushing generalwu, and that wagon feels pure?

I meant to ask this yesterday, but what did you mean by 'pure', in this context?

In the sense that everyone who voted generalwu yesterday, at least on the initial wagon (Roden, Meg, me, T3) is either a townread or confirmed town to me

And while, yes, I just said the idea of all-town wagon composition meaning the target must be scum is a fallacy...I have to wonder, if GeneralWu is town, why weren't scum pushing on him at all? That is making a lot of assumptions, though. The primary reason for a vote should always be things in-thread and I think dragons is scummier in my view.

[catboi]

By the way, I'm sorry I was mean to you on day 1, shwinnebego.

[catboi]

i guess it's just T3 here? i don't really see a good reason why town!T3 claims mason tbh.

Actually, here's a take: this is a post coming from someone who knows T3 will flip town.

VOTE: Save the Dragons

How come?

The language is almost too passive, it doesn't have the feeling I and other people did where we really jumped on T3 for fakeclaiming, it's kind of quizzical in the "oh huh why is he doing this", like he knows T3 isn't scum but has to push him anyway.

he was at E-1, if he wasn't i would have added a vote

For the record, it's not about the vote or lack thereof, it's about how you reacted to the claim being outed as fake.

[catboi]

stray thought, but was looking back at votecounts because I wasn't sure if who had/hadn't been pushing generalwu, and that wagon feels pure?

I meant to ask this yesterday, but what did you mean by 'pure', in this context?

In the sense that everyone who voted generalwu yesterday, at least on the initial wagon (Roden, Meg, me, T3) is either a townread or confirmed town to me
.

Why? Lotsa folks were voting Wu yesterday, seems like it would be an easy thing for anyone to do. If you would, please enlighten me (in simple language, please, remember, small brain here) as to why the initial Wu voters are townie.

I think Roden's play has been very town, the response to pressure, him suggesting the possibility of a masonry inthread when a scum player would likely keep his thoughts on that confined to the scum PT. I also think your point about his reaction to the fakeclaim is a fair one. I think Meg has faded somewhat as the game has picked up and his contributions have become limited, but I still feel as though he's more likely to be good here, especially if Save the Dragons flips red, since he was the only one willing to press him on day 1.

[catboi]

Come to think of it, yeah that logic "I think std is town; I checked his other games and he usually just doesn't post anything more than one-liners and stuff as town." doesn't pass the sniff test for me.

Making a poor argument isn't inherently scummy in my view (that would be rich coming from a half-baked non-rigorous poster like me), more just saying I strongly disagree with it.

Don't be too hard on yourself - I think your recent analysis has been great, I wish I had more to add on to it.

I have to ask what was going on with your day 1, though. Is it more typical for how you play to mess around on day 1 and get serious on later days?

[catboi]

Dammit. The more I look at StD's original post: "i guess it's just T3 here? i don't really see a good reason why town!T3 claims mason tbh."

The less it actually seems like it's based on knowing something the rest of us don't.

That actually seems like...a pretty normal thing to say at the time. I said something similar myself. I couldn't figure out why a Town T3 would fakeclaim mason, and following from that I presumed that T3 was probably evil. It was clearly a gambit; but I couldn't for the life of me identify an even remotely viable *town* gambit that T3 could be attempting. StD's statement suggests that he was thinking something similar. I'm losing track of why I thought StD was evil in the first place.

I don't think it's a smoking gun, but I feel like the way he phrased it: "

i guess

it's just T3" has a level of uncertainty that almost feels unnatural. I know you were uncertain, but you seemed to be more trying to evaluate why he did it when it didn't make sense from either a town or scum perspective, his wording feels ...unnaturally hesitant? But I think beyond the reaction to the claim STD simply hasn't been very townie. I don't want to act like that's the entire reason I'm voting him.

[catboi]

Come to think of it, yeah that logic "I think std is town; I checked his other games and he usually just doesn't post anything more than one-liners and stuff as town." doesn't pass the sniff test for me.

Making a poor argument isn't inherently scummy in my view (that would be rich coming from a half-baked non-rigorous poster like me), more just saying I strongly disagree with it.

Don't be too hard on yourself - I think your recent analysis has been great, I wish I had more to add on to it.

I have to ask what was going on with your day 1, though. Is it more typical for how you play to mess around on day 1 and get serious on later days?

Indeed pretty much this.

On my home forum we tend to almost exclusively shitpost and joke around until about 30 minutes before deadline on day 1, and I was somewhat surprised at the degree of ire my jocular style garnered from a Very Serious Mafia vibe angle on day 1 (when I don’t personally feel that I generate much value for town by engaging in hard nosed town sleuthery; on the contrary, I find that I get wolves to slip up more precisely in their responses to my jocular all-shitposting manner of engagement)

Fair enough, that's entirely valid, to a degree I think mafia are more likely to slip up when there's some amount of differences and misunderstandings. Plus, it's just boring if everyone plays the same way, I don't want to hammer that out of you. In part because of the lengthy phases on this site, I think games tend to take on an atmosphere more resembling "hard-nosed sleuthing", as you put it. I tend to put my game face on and play more serious in newbie games here in part because I want to lead by example, in part because I feel most of the time newer players tend to be more...literal-minded, in a manner of speaking. More likely to misinterpret posts that don't make things explicitly clear. Of course in doing so I fell into a culture clash with you.

Sorry for the misunderstanding!

[catboi]

I feel like I had stronger reads right after the flip, and as time passes I'm less confident in them and am regressing to a "I don't know anything" gameread. That's not great. Should I just stick to my guns?

There's always uncertainty in games. I think in part though, as it's day 2 and we still have a spare mis-elimination, I'd recommend sticking to your guns unless you find a good reason to believe something else. ELO is the time for re-evaluating and getting paranoid.

[catboi]

Val, can you give me a sense of where your reads are at right now? I thought the way you went after T3 on day 1 was towny even if it ended up being wrong, but your focus to this point has been very narrow-band and I want to see you broaden your view and talk about other players, since the two main ones you had reads on day 1 are now dead.

[catboi]

Are you kidding me?

[catboi]

good feelings on shwinn are gone

[catboi]

I don't think Meg/GeneralWu are scum together but there's likely one in there

[catboi]

You're right, it's not hammer, I just got home, opened the thread, and freaked out.. Okay. Momentary paranoia on shwinn retracted.

[catboi]

I actually think the way STD backed diown on Val is kind of towny, although 579 does not do very much for me at all, the reasoning for the vote on val in the first place feels rather mediocre.

I haven't given proper consideration to generalwu's case on Meg and need to do so at some point

[catboi]

Moving back to the game, and I feel like we really are entering the twilight zone here given that I am about to suggest that people with a correct read are sus - but given that T3 was fakeclaiming mason, as town, in an actual mason game; and doing some of the scummiest stuff you could think possible, I am actually thinking that those who were expressing town reads on T3 in spite of it - and I'm looking at Shwinn, asking about why a town!t3 claims mason, GeneralWu with a townread justified by absolute bullshit (T3 was doing a lot of things, but actively solving the game wasn't one of them), and StD here - feel a little like TMI.

Given the curveball we've been thrown, I don't think we need to rush this one, but in principle, I am also happy starting with StD, for much the same reasons as have come up already. As of this moment, GeneralWu would be my second choice for today.

I don't think I've made much of a secret about where I am at today. My PoE is StD, GeneralWu, Shwinn. I think we will find one, if not both, scum in that trio. In the event the second scum falls outside that trio, I would be looking at Meg and Catboi. Both of those are currently leaning town in my eyes, and I think there is a good chance the game will be if we had time to lim all 3 of my PoE. I'm not seeing a scum Roden, and they are a straight up town read for me right now.

Roden,
Meg, Catboi
Schwin
StD, GeneralWu.

How does your list look today compared to yesterday, Catboi?

Roden. shwinn, and you are town in my view, STD/Wu/meg are suspects, need to give them more consideration as to who I feel strongest about, but it's late right now and I'm tired.

[catboi]

I finally read the case in 549 and I'm not sure it's convincing in its reasoning, mainly it seems to revolve around meg being scum because he is scumcasing generalwu. But I am also not sure it's a case made by scum. I am feeling very hedgey.

[catboi]

The 180 from STD on Wu is...a surprising move that I'm not sure comes from scum. That's him taking away a very viable vote for him, and if it's his partner...why does he reverse like that? Just seems strategically bad.

I think Roden continues to be very town.

I need to think about things more and reread people.

UNVOTE:

[catboi]

look i don't really understand the case against me but i don't think it's val anymore. i think i was just jumping at something i saw when rereading yesterday and i think he's forcing it to match his confirm biased worldview that i'm scum.

i don't think you should lim me today because we've already lost a townie to whatever the hell T3 did and i'd hate to lose another just to my shitty attempt to get back into the game.

Can you explain who you think is scum besides Meg?

[catboi]

Honestly, I might want to vote Meg, although I have no good idea who his partner would be, but on a reread of his ISO I'm less than impressed. Although I liked his start, his reads have been static and mostly based off early impressions of Wu/STD "not doing much", but to me now looking at them, they've actually shown fluidity in their thought processes and a willingness to evaluate new information, I actually get the sense they might be thinking about the game. I realize he's been V/LA for a significant time period but I get the sense Meg is coasting.

Wild that I'm ending up here.

[catboi]

I can try to put words together on it sometimes tomorrow. I'm second guessing my read on STD, mainly.

[catboi]

I can try to put words together on it sometimes tomorrow. I'm second guessing my read on STD, mainly.

I thought you told me to wait until day 3 to get paranoid and second guess myself

Do as I say, not as I do. Probably.

[catboi]

If I am reading the room wrong, and people really have no idea what my problem with StD and what he posted early with respect to navigator, then I will spell out - but only if I am asked to do so by my town reads - not by you, shwin.

I will be honest here - I think you're overreacting and that his intention in quoting that may not have been sinister, given his followup of voting you. But I'm not entirely confident on that.

[catboi]

VOTE: GeneralWu

I think my general d1 suspicions toward them haven't diminished, and shwinniebego brought up a good point about how the vote on them dissolved yesterday despite them saying nothing at E-1.
Let's get this show on the road.

So, the "general D1 suspicions" that Meg had toward GeneralWu were that he wasn't trying to find scum, but that came very early:

VOTE: GeneralWu

Hadn't finished reading and didn't see catboi unvote.
My thoughts: GeneralWu has generally done nothing to try to find scum this game, the closest to their "scumreads" is questioning why poeple think other people are towny. Now they jump to the defense of another player that realistically would not be voted out nor has done anything worthy of being townread.
Honestly it seems like GeneralWu is either scum that is paired with shwinnebago.

I would ask to not put people to E-1 though, as the longer this day goes on, the more informed decisions we can make.

Here's my problem: looking back at generalwu, he's contributed a ton since then. I haven't always agreed with it but he's been putting opinions and analysis in thread. I look at him now, and you know, what, he does look like he's solving, I just was locked in and being tunneled. Meg has responded to essentially none of it save the case generalwu made on him. I'm not certain he's actually trying to read GeneralWu at all.

[catboi]

Why do you think he flips red? I need more words beyond "not trying to find scum", because I don't think that's at all true anymore.

[catboi]

LAMIST?

"look at me I'm so townie". He's accusing you of trying to look town by talking up how you're acting and saying it's townish

In general I prefer if people say what they mean rather than using buzzwords, because such things are an excuse to turn off critical thinking

[catboi]

I see the announced intent to hammer, let me see if I have anything to add

[catboi]

I feel like Meg's vote is scummy, but I also don't really like save the dragons asking for a case and nothing more even if he's V/LA. I feel blah about the whole game right now.

[catboi]

Just went through a thorough readthrough of Wu's posts, and I feel I am going at them a bit too harshly. Looking at a lot of the reactions that they have seem reason able enough to have come from a town Wu (although I definitely don't think scum Wu is off the table). I have TR val, roden, and catboy for a long while because they appear to be approaching the game with a similar thought process of my own, I believe that it would be good to look through their posts to try to make sure that assumption is correct. I also think StD's flip would be important to help that analysis as well, and I think its close to time for that flip.

I don't think its really any more likely them than Wu, but I think the flip is more telling.

VOTE: SavetheDragons

This is E-1.

This is kind of a big shrug - why is he being voted? "to help that analysis". Of whom? How will it help? He says it will be telling but doesn't elaborate. It's a very empty vote, I feel like any scum could write this.

VOTE: megazumarill

[catboi]

Save The Dragons (3): shwinnbego, Val89, MegAzumarill
MegAzumarill (3): GeneralWu, Save The Dragons, catboi

Not Voting: Roden

[catboi]

Actually I don't like STD's response, either, he's just been asking what the case on him was. There's no actual refocusing, his vote move onto meg is weak.

[catboi]

Did we not have a discusion day 1 about putting someone at an unannounced E-1, catboi?

I guess, sorry. Out of habit and assumed people would know and it was unlikely anyone would switch.

Oh. I really don't like this double E-1 at all.

Er, why?

[catboi]

I think you're town regardless, shrug. I won't hold it against you if you vote StD here and he flips town. I think there's an extremely high likelihood of scum between the two of them no matter what.

[catboi]

That seems like a non-answer to me.

[catboi]

I apologize for my part in that disaster, but I think this can still be salvaged. I'm still baffled as to why Meg put out a scumread on his mason partner in the early game.

I think scum made a misplay by choosing to no-kill last night.

Hey Val, want to try to explain why you were blatantly softclaiming mason yesterday?

[catboi]

Well, both PRs are accounted for, so no kill means both scum AFK.

Yeah, absolutely not.

[catboi]

So, for the benefit of the rest of the thread, lets lock it right down - because I know precisely why you have turned your attention to my slot in particular.

Do you, StD, agree 100% there is scum between me and you?

I'll spell it out for you, once StD answers my question.

Roden has posted enough that I am 100% confident he knows what's up. I'm fairly certainly catboi knows the deal. Meg and Wu haven't given indication they are following, but neither of them have said they are struggling to follow here, either. The only slot who is now going hard at trying to draw me into a conversation that I think basically everyone else knows is anti-town is you. I don't think it's a coindience that is the two slots I am scumreading are the two complaining that I'm being a cagey and avoiding spelling exactly what the issue is (and for the avoidence of doubt, I am doing so because, as StD acknowlegded, to do so otherwise may prove to be anti-town).

These are softclaims, there are probably more I could dig up, but you were blatantly trying to pretend you were nav's partner yesterday in order to force an elimination. I refuse to believe you act this way as a VT.

[catboi]

I'm just giving my current thoughts to the game here.
Catboi and StD really need to post more to give some input
GeneralWu you should probably try to give some scumreads considering you are at E-2, you need to propose an alternative.
Roden, T3 and Catboi are my townreads atm. My scumreads are navigatorv, std and Wu.

SR on navigatorvI have often seen scum waiting to vote until they start seeing where town falls
SR on WU because of the above statement, and what I had already mentioned
SR on StD for generally not providing input

This post is why I didn't think meg was a mason. I thought he was possibly a mason based on nav's reads, but I did not think there was any way a mason would scumread their own partner. Really bad mistake to 'distance' as a mason in this way.

[catboi]

Val + shwinn. I think that's the team.

[catboi]

Go on then, explain what advantage scum gets by

choosing

to no kill?

Absolutely none, they just handed us an extra day. Unless they were throwing, they were AFK.

If everyone is sure there is scum between me and StD, I'm more than happy to use the extra day scum has given us to flip me today, as long as you actually use what you get out of that to flip scum tomorrow.

There is not an extra day, it's MELO. If we vote wrong today we lose. But you're smart enough to know that, this just looks like an attempt to dumbtell.


Save the Dragons? Active during the night phase. Roden? Active. GeneralWu? Active. I was obviously around.

shwinn?
Last visited:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:13 pm

unclear but the fact is he was around to hammer, could easily have submitted during that time, and it only takes 1 partner to submit the kill. Trying to blame it on an AFK team doesn't work.

[catboi]

I do not buy your excuses as towntells whatsoever, I think your pushes have been disingenuous, and you tried to use softing mason as a way to force an elim yesterday. I'm not letting you worm your way out of that.

[catboi]

I'm waiting for others to check in but my full intention is to vote you today.

[catboi]

skimmed the ISOs, I think Val/shwinn fits fairly well.

[catboi]

VC 3.00

Not Voting:

Roden, Val89, GeneralWu, Save The Dragons, catboi, shwinnbego

With

6

players remaining,

4

votes to eliminate

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-08-10 12:14:36)

Val, stop trying to dumbtell. It's completely and obviously phony. I know you know how to count.

[catboi]

I do not believe you thought for a single second there were 7 players alive. You were aware navigator was killed night 1. You were aware we missed on the eliminations twice. You are trying to fake a towntell by acting this way.

[catboi]

I'm not going to auto scum lock you, because Day 1 is proof that town can and will make weird gambits with Mason claims. I just don't understand how the fuck this game had two fake Mason claims and that neither of the real Masons tried to use their role whatsoever

I might've had doubts here but I don't think Val's posting today comes from town.

[catboi]

We're in MELo, we can't vote freely anymore since a mis-elim means we get endgamed

No, we are not. Don't buy the crap catboi is selling here; We WOULD have been in MELO if scum killed last night, but there was no-kill; and so there is an extra player (six, not seven, I give you that) that there would have otherwise been, and thus another chance today.

In any case, even if catboi truely beleived we were in MELO, wouldn't that be an even stronger reason to vote the slot you are suddenly sure is scum, and encourage others to do so?

I'm not going to rush the day. Keep mudslinging though.

[catboi]

I think a val scumflip means STD and Roden are basically always town. Would peg the partner as being between shwinn and GeneralWu. I like shwinn's posting more but have no idea of his range and him and Val have been sort of dancing around each other with suspicion the whole game. That's be my guess but not highly confident on it.

If val is town, whatever, this whole game is a travesty start to finish but I was never going to get there

[catboi]

By the way, the best choice is to not eliminate anyone today.

In all likelihood the no-kill was done tactically and mfia will continue to no-kill to force the cycle until we either eliminate or come to a draw (as per the rules, I believe, a certain cycle of no elim/no kill ends the game in a draw). Would be a rather disappointing way to end a newbie game, even one that's been as mismanaged as this one.


However, I actually feel like you're towny just for making this post because I don't see mafia making an intentional no-kill and then immediately suggesting a vote for no elimination.

[catboi]

I don't think there's any reason I intentionally nokill here. It's a much greater advantage to have the game be winnable with 1 townie being wrong, rather than two. But we can cross that bridge if I'm still around on later days.

[catboi]

I have no real guess as to why they no-killed here either. Seems as though it'd be much more advantageous to have someone die. The only think I can think of is conspiracy theorizing around wanting people to vote val. But the fact that Val is going on incoherently about the nokill and acting like there's a spare elimination makes me think this was a move on his part to try to be confusing.


I think barring further input, I'll be voting Val. Even in the event we don't eliminate today, the lack of a hammer provides info on the following day.

[catboi]

I...okay.

[catboi]

I was going to type up a vote here because I don't even want to have someone replace into that slot but I feel as though that's bad form here. So I wait.

[catboi]

Sigh. You know what?

VOTE: no elimination

[catboi]

It's very confusing and frustrating, yes.

[catboi]

val's actions today are completely mystifying to me, as either alignment, really.

[catboi]

Just for anyone keeping track, I think me/roden, me/generalwu, and generalwu/roden are ruled out as teams.

Toying in my mind whether I want to roll with no elim or put val at E-1 to further test roden/wu to see if they hammer. Not sure I'm there yet but feel unexpectedly more confident than I thought.

[catboi]

hmmm. hmm. hhmmmmmmhhhmmm.

i thought it was interesting because i wonder what he was thinking.

VOTE: Meg

If possible, can you explain why you just moved your vote?

Please spell it out plainly if possible, unless you really really think that continuing to post cryptically will benefit town. If you do not do that, then barring someone else explaining to me why your cryptic approach to posting helps town in a sufficiently compelling fashion, I will interpret your actions and cryptic justifications for them as wolfish behavior.

i do not think discussing this benefits the town

Okay, this here seems confusing. Why is not discussing beneficial to town?

He moved his vote because he thought Val was hinting at being a mason but didn't want to out it.

[catboi]

I feel like I'm talking to a flat-earther

Flat is justice.

I'm still going through everything, by the way.

Are you still going through things right now?

[catboi]

damn

what do you think is goin on w this game

i think too many vanilla townies are claiming mason

Is that meant to be implying something about Val

[catboi]

damn

what do you think is goin on w this game

i think too many vanilla townies are claiming mason

Is that meant to be implying something about Val

1 is too many

Good answer, Tbh

[catboi]

I just spent about 3 minutes skimming val's other games and actually feel reasonably good about him being scum here.

[catboi]

Val's not an illogical player and is fully capable of producing fairly strong analysis, his play today is wildly out of character if town.

[catboi]

He doesn't have scum meta. And I'm extremely aware of the dangers of analyzing based on an extremely limited sample. But Val is such a verbose player that the difference is rather striking. I'll get into it tomorrow.

[catboi]

He moved his vote because he thought Val was hinting at being a mason but didn't want to out it.

Wait, I can't seem to find where he said that.

Well, he hasn't confirmed it himself, but that was what I took the meaning to be, you can ask him yourself.

[catboi]

Actually weird to not have addressed that today.

[catboi]

That was what I was getting at, yes.

[catboi]

Catboi, you seen to be town reading Wu, but do you still town read me?

Yes, more confidently than generalwu still. GewneralWu is kind of a shrug guess in that he wouldn't approach this day phase the way he's playing as scum, when I reread his ISO last night there were some parts I liked and some parts I didn't like.

I'm going to do a more thorough examination of Val in his other games so I can be confident here but if my perspective doesn't change, I might hammer test you, because otherwise the game is going to be stuck in a standstill.

[catboi]

I reread val's day 2 this game and I'm less certain. I didn't really like how he seemed to latch on to the STD votes that were mainly being pushed by me and shwinn but I saw some attempt at logic there, his softclaiming mason is still astounding to me. I don't think I'm confident enough to vote.

[catboi]

Yeah, that's...quite the entry.

[catboi]

I feel like taking a chance here to progress things and I'm okay enough with this read.

VOTE: Radical Rat

Roden, if you're town just post once to confirm not hammering. If you're scum then just end it.

[catboi]

ah

well then

[catboi]

Don't think I was ever getting there

[catboi]

STD was the partner?

[catboi]

Rough game all around. I guess I shouldn't have let the early ATE get to me.

I thought maybe something was up with val's frustration at his situation being legitimate but I couldn't figure out what the answer would be otherwise.

[catboi]

Meh, no need to apologize for winning. Lot of mistakes were made.

[catboi]

I'll be having a word with the listmod about T3 after the game officially concludes though, because in my opinion his play was absolutely inexcusable for a SE in a newbie game. The opening post says not to fakeclaim as town, doing what he did was completely antitown.

[catboi]

RR, sorry. For the record my vote was nothing to do with your posting and everything to do with wanting to test my townread. I was just wrong here.

[catboi]

I "mind melded" with you Catboi because going by past town games I knew you'd be a threat, and you proved you had pull with town decisions early on. We did get lucky with town imploding though, I'm not even sure why town kept fake claiming Mason or why Meg never claimed.

Meh. I'm a mediocre town player. I don't really function well on my own.

[catboi]

I "mind melded" with you Catboi because going by past town games I knew you'd be a threat, and you proved you had pull with town decisions early on. We did get lucky with town imploding though, I'm not even sure why town kept fake claiming Mason or why Meg never claimed.

Meh. I'm a mediocre town player. I don't really function well on my own.

I don't want to seem like I'm diminishing your victory, though, which I realized this post could be taken as. I think you played well. I just chafe at undue praise.

[catboi]

I'll be having a word with the listmod about T3 after the game officially concludes though, because in my opinion his play was absolutely inexcusable for a SE in a newbie game. The opening post says not to fakeclaim as town, doing what he did was completely antitown.

:////
I played terribly. I was very sure of my reads and thought people would see what was going on. It didn't help that I was tunneled from page 5 for a joke crumb.

This is on me, I won't do stupid stuff in a newbie again.

It's very hard to believe this is any sort of a sincere apology, given that there's absolutely no reasonable explanation for having made that claim in the first place, and your penchant for similar stunts in other games.

[catboi]

Well, anyway, now that the dust has settled, I hope the newbies from this game stick around even if the game was a bit of a disaster. I did enjoy playing with you all regardless.


Although I feel uncomfortable with giving advice, as I was largely awful this game, if anyone wants feedback, feel free to ask.

[catboi]

Well, anyway, now that the dust has settled, I hope the newbies from this game stick around even if the game was a bit of a disaster. I did enjoy playing with you all regardless.


Although I feel uncomfortable with giving advice, as I was largely awful this game, if anyone wants feedback, feel free to ask.

I think you did pretty well.
I will take some feedback.

Nah, game was really bad even by my usual standards.

As you, hm. You got hit with some early suspicion but had a decent response to it, it just took a while for me to stop being hung up on suspecting you. It wasn't really until I reread you that I said to myself "oh, he's actually doing things." In some sense you get hit for fluffing around to start, but I don't really want to tell you to stop that, it's not like everyone is obligated to be serious business immediately all the time. I think the biggest trap you fell into this game was scumreading Meg just because his read on you was incorrect - I think in the future it's worthwhile to remember that someone can be wrong or have faulty reasoning and still be town. (Of course, I was wrong there too, I think his absence from the game complicated things a lot, as well as a lot of other things going wrong). Other than that, I think you could stand to be a little more assertive with your opinions in games. Pretty minor, I think overall you were fine this game and most of the stuff that went wrong was outside your influence.