Newbie 2085 - Game Over

[frogsfrogs]

Howdy everyone!!
VOTE: Binatog13

[frogsfrogs]

Hmm. I think Prism's lurking argument is interesting!! Maybe I'm taking more +town Prism than -town Meteor Tome from it for now though

[frogsfrogs]

Hmm. I think Prism's lurking argument is interesting!! Maybe I'm taking more +town Prism than -town Meteor Tome from it for now though

who else is giving you vibes?

Why, pretty hard to say at this stage, isn't it? ;P Positive on Prism so far, I think WINfried looks good, the

most

minor of not postive vibes off Dragons for only meming, but it's too early for anyone else. Except.. hmmm...

SE can be scum too

Is that so..?

[frogsfrogs]

dragons can do what he likes ig

i do what i want

does that include a vote?

Taly: What's your reason for holding back on a vote right now, do you always play like that?

Sometimes, I just don't feel a vote is the best instinctual way to help me sort at the moment

Why prod at Save The Dragons to RVS but feel that, for you, "a vote is [not] the best instinctual way to help you sort at the moment"? I feel like some of your questioning so far looks more like it's for filling space than getting useful answers and starting points for play.

[frogsfrogs]

What exactly is wrong with filling space at this point in the game, it’s how you create a situation that we actually can evaluate alignment in? Unless of course, maybe your alignment would prefer that doesn’t happen.VOTE: frogsfrogs

I was talking about "filling space" in a TMI sort of way, as opposed to saying and asking things that gave better results. You can disagree with that being your read of Taly's posts! But trying to stop conversation is definitely not what I was trying to do. I like his response to this now, anyways. Do yoooou have a reason you needed to leap to his defense?

[frogsfrogs]

No wait, sorry, TMI

is

a term that is used and is a valid thing to read on. Scum have incentive to create content, too, because they have to look townie. It's the quality of the information as well as the quantity that's important, and posting game relevant but empty content is potentially scum indicative. Again, not something I even think about Taly anymore, and I'm certainly a newbie here too, but you're misunderstanding me or

something

.

[frogsfrogs]

UNVOTE: Binatog
In which situation of those three does town benefit from pressuring him now, Laplacian? What's the best we can get from it? 1. A real PR claim, where Mafia now get to know the setup + who to kill tonight; very bad! 2. An admission that it was a fake soft claim, where mafia now know not to kill Bin because he isn't a PR, and then we just have to go back to reading him anyways to decide if he's now telling the truth or not. Or 3. Scum!Binatog now fakeclaiming one of the previous two. If he fakeclaims a PR, in almost all setups at least one real PR knows he's lying, and they can decide to out themselves or not. If he fakeclaims VT, then, again, we have to read him like anyone else, right?
The situations you've set up being annoying doesn't mean that voting Binatog helps. I think it's bad for town for there to be any PR claims as early as this and that soft claims like this are best ignored, though factored in. I don't see enough from Binatog otherwise to read him yet.

[frogsfrogs]

I'm looking through 2048 but am not seeing anything similar to what Binatog did here. Can someone link to the softing PR as scum receipts??

I don't think Binatog should say anything more at all about his role claim tbh. Don't give the mafia the info.

[frogsfrogs]

I think this game is already a small improvement from frogs' first (scum-aligned) game onsite, where it took them a second to get into gear and were more reticent to give reads.

I was hoping this would be an easy read but the depth of reads when given was honestly quite striking. frogs-how did you feel that scumgame went for you, and what do you think led to you being caught out? I saw you believed the nightkills were mistakes, but I'm curious more about dayplay.

Yeah, I was pretty happy with that game as my first ever in forum mafia and first as scum!! Lots of weirdly intricate mechanical stuff happened, we got two blocked nightkills and had no chance anymore. In the day, I was probably too focused on seeming townie and appealing to everyone, especially when I wasn't good enough at that to fully convince people lol. Day 2 I got tunnelled for a bit and then the player let it go, but they'd absolutely been right in their assessment of why my reads didn't seem to be coming from a townie. My apprehension at making moves was also probably a scumtell-- I would have been nervous as town then too, but probably not acting the same way lol.

[frogsfrogs]

Post #900 in that game he spelt "T R A C K E R" with the first letters in the words of his comment.

OK, thank you for showing me! I completely disagree that this is analogous or means anything for his play now lol. That was him fully fakeclaiming a PR on day 2 after being put at E-1. That's a situation in which a lot of scum will fakeclaim and is totally different to a soft on page 2 of a game. It's possible to do as scum but less likely and it isn't backed up by any meta of his.

[frogsfrogs]

...Did you read the part where they softed PR as scum previously?

I don't think this is true anymore but even assuming it was, do you think that Binatog having previously softed PR as scum would make voting him in this case a good / the right move, Prism? Asking both for the sake of my read on you and for a SE perspective lol

[frogsfrogs]

I actually did waffle for a bit on whether to vote or not. That's mainly why I added that footnote of "if we get close to elim before Binatog's defense and without everyone having posted, I'll unvote". Right now I want info, not an elimination. Vote pressure imo says "explain yourself or else", and even if he doesn't full claim he at least needs to say

why

he chose to softclaim so early

Ok, yeah, we disagree there. I specifically do not think we gain anything from an explanation in this situation and are, in fact, more likely to be hindered by it. Info is power and scum inherently have more of it right now.

[frogsfrogs]

I actually did waffle for a bit on whether to vote or not. That's mainly why I added that footnote of "if we get close to elim before Binatog's defense and without everyone having posted, I'll unvote". Right now I want info, not an elimination. Vote pressure imo says "explain yourself or else", and even if he doesn't full claim he at least needs to say

why

he chose to softclaim so early

OK, reading through this again it is not a response I like to my question, which was "What do we gain from voting Binatog / forcing him to explain?" I get that Laplacian

does

want an explanation, but his answer here is basically, like, "Don't worry, I don't want to lim Binatog before he says anything!", which.. is something I certainly

would be suspicious of

if he wanted! But it isn't something I was worried about nor was asking. Makes me feel less positive, for now, about Laplacian for this one,

but,

I think

Lap

waffling on

Bin

suggests their initial vote had no ulterior motives despite it being encouraged by

Win's

first vote.

My reading of the above post, the one Taly is referring to here, means that I see this as pretty dang odd to say! Taly only goes on to make an association of players they don't think are scum/scum because of the Binatog situation, so he doesn't say anything specific about reading Lap, but this seems pretty townread-y on him to say his vote was pure. The kind of "waffling" I'm seeing Laplacian doing is unsubstantial, not him actually hemming and hawing or something, and is totally reasonable for scum to do. This reads to me as actually TMI now

(Y'all were right, I was definitely mixing my words earlier and really meant fluff posting lol)

, or, less likely but maybe, something you'd say about a scum partner. I definitely think scum have incentive to push for Binatog explaining more about his role right now, too, which Taly is doing.

VOTE: Taly

[frogsfrogs]

Ok, noted!! This kind of explanation helps clear you up to me Laplacian, I see where you're coming from. Not to repeat myself but like I said in 61, my warning is that if Bin is town, pushing him has *negative* utility, because even implying that he's actually a VT or is really a PR gives too much away. That makes it difficult for him to give a true answer about his goals, I'd assume. If Binatog wants to comment, he's gotta do it in a way that continues to be ambiguous, and that's a direct plea to him, heh.

Also I do wish he'd have some more to say about who he's reading right now, but I think his complete disinterest in addressing anyone talking about him is a townie move actually, lol. Deflecting is a scum thing, yes, but he seems to fully not care what we think about him. I think he'd feel more obligated to respond as Mafia. I only baaarely skimmed through that other newbie game but what I did see he didn't seem like he was flippant or faking confidence as scum there.

[frogsfrogs]

lmao. dragons is town imo

[frogsfrogs]

frogfrog i'm curious what makes you believe STD is town?

Scum have to give us something to blend in, Dragons outright refuses LOL. I doubt it's a triple psychology situation. He's given us a few reasonable

seeming

reads, albeit without context? I expect he'll give us more later on, or if he doesn't I'd definitely vote him.

[frogsfrogs]

Like, my townreading him based on this isn't the strongest logic, but at the least I'd rather vote someone who's talkative but suspicious out today since we

have

content from them, and imo scum are more likely to be in the talkative group. More time creates more content from quiet players.

[frogsfrogs]

Yeah uhhhh reviewing 2048 I really do not like this, after the reveal of the tracker soft I figured the context differed but yikes. The post I quoted earlier looks like Enchant was telling Binatog to keep it.

I don't understand what you're saying about the screenshotted posts here. I saw the posts where scum Binatog claimed tracker in this game, and I'm gathering that he went back on that and claimed VT afterwards, but what earlier quoted post & Enchant do you mean?
Was Binatog successful in this game in getting an actual tracker to claim or in wiggling out of his lim? I do think that getting more context here, Binatog being willing to make the crazy play of trying to convince everyone it was just bait in that game, makes me more suspicious. But the soft here was also done so instantly + Binatog

lost

as scum there. I don't think it's the same thing and might not be something he tries again as Maf. He might just be a really wild player, either alignment

[frogsfrogs]

About that response itself? Nothing. But the fact that he simply ignored my own question to him and just picked one by another player strikes me as him genuinely not giving a fuck if he dies or lives. He won't make it very long into the game no matter what. Also half of the town appears to be protecting the guy more than their newborn baby so I don't think that bus was going anywhere anyway.

Ehhhh this post is kind of bad. "The wagon was going nowhere" is a scum concern. I do agree that Binatog's soft will resolve itself over time, though.

[frogsfrogs]

I don't think any of this past game relates to understanding how disastrous the idea could be as town, but it definitely does relate to him understanding how possibly disastrous it can be as scum. Again, it's the situation in which he actually is a PR that's the worst for us right now. If you and others see a need for him to explain, as long as he isn't giving his real role away I can be for that.

[frogsfrogs]

Scum do like to avoid being implicated in mislims but they also have to try and push for mislims, lest the town zero in on them, the actual scum lol. I definitely consider being concerned with what's a viable vote rather than who's most likely Mafia (and thus pushing that case anyways) is scummy. Interesting to hear your perspective though, and I agree that I'd prefer not to no-lim today

[frogsfrogs]

My reads right now go something like:

hunterr - absolute neutral, no info yet

Laplacian

WINfried

Binatog13
Prism

Save The Dragons

Meteor Tome

Taly

Spoiler: colorblind explanation

that's groups of:

(Laplacian - Town),
(WINfried - less confident town)
(Binatog, Prism - townlean)
(Save The Dragons - neutral, slight townlean)
(Meteor Tome - neutral, slight scumlean?)
(Taly - scumlean)

I wish I had more of a mix of scumreads / townreads right now but this is where I'm at. I'm currently voting Taly and maaaybe willing to go Meteor Tome. I just need to see more, overall.

[frogsfrogs]

if the scum team is Taly / Dragons @_@

[frogsfrogs]

Because Dragons isn't in the scum thread?

[frogsfrogs]

[frogsfrogs]

You figuring me for scum now, Taly?

[frogsfrogs]

give me a 2 sentence summary of your vote/scumread

My case for you? I don't have experience with you as a player to go off of, so room for error obviously, but I feel like I see you commenting on the game quite a bit without seeing you really interacting with anyone/the situations at hand. Explanations on your reads have felt thin or even wrong to me so far.

[frogsfrogs]

Oh, fair point! WINfried, what

do

you think about Taly?

[frogsfrogs]

tbf hunterr is reading through things for the first time, that's basically his RVS vote, but yeah I don't see the logic in saying an SE seemingly (but not really) not helping Binatog out is scum indicative. Give me a more full case on what you think of Prism when you've caught up, hunterr.

[frogsfrogs]

Hmmm, can you expand on what "line of thinking" from Prism on me you mean? Just the initiative to scope out my meta? And unfortunately this is only my second game, so no, they haven't played with a town-aligned me before now and I've got no history to show haha.

[frogsfrogs]

Above post is to hunterr's 149*

[frogsfrogs]

WINfried, is the game you're referring to one in which Taly was town aligned or scum aligned? Shouldn't the discrepancy make you feel like they're being suspiciously different here? Or is your explanation that they seem too laid back to be scum? What makes, say, Dragons or Binatog not fit for this profile?

[frogsfrogs]

Yeah, I super feel like MT's stance on Binatog could be scum seeing the opportunity for town cred by standing up for the soft AND getting to make some easy, fairly genuine posts discussing strategy. The confirmation weirdness, the willingness to jump on me for at the start of the day, and the lack of posts that'd be difficult for scum to make makes me definitely sus Meteor Tome.

[frogsfrogs]

That was mostly a joke, based on Prism commenting on their contributions so far as the two other SEs lol

[frogsfrogs]

Only having one townread / how open his options are is a little scummy but agreed, I'm townreading hunterr for now lol

[frogsfrogs]

Not sure I appreciate those words, Dragons, if I'm drowning at the bottom of the pool not sure who pushed me, but tough love, right

[frogsfrogs]

I've wavered my opinion on Prism a little bit but I've arrived at a town read at this point and I don't think this is a good push. I... do not know why the posts hunterr has an issue with are scum indicative at all. He's only talked about the two early ones and then said 146 is "concerning". Given that Dragons is playing his game how he is, this is the only argument for scum prism that I'm seeing. I think Prism's posts have been of fine quality so far-- she's engaging with others and the game, both asking questions and sharing reads-- and some of the angles she's taken to try and read people are novel and/or effortful enough to look really townie to me. I don't think Dragons / hunterr could be a scum team, with how Dragons hopped on this vote but like, maybe one of them could be. Not really scumreading either of 'em currently.

[frogsfrogs]

hunterr, could you explain why you think Prism is scum? Especially why you think the comments you think are contradicting are scum indicative?

[frogsfrogs]

And again, I ask,

why is that scum indicative

. You argue that this is bad form / bad advice / hypocritical of her to say and, fine ok, I get that you think that, but all you're talking about is if she was addressing Binatog properly. You're voting her because you want her to be elimmed. Why do you think she is scum? Or is this, as I'm suspecting now, just a flimsy post hoc argument because

you're

scum.

[frogsfrogs]

I think you're misunderstanding what she's saying in 146. When she says "retroactive justification", to my understanding, she is saying that she thinks

your

justification for sussing her is retroactive.

I think encouraging someone to take risks does not assume they are completely incapable. I find it hard to believe this is in good faith and that you did not skip ahead, see I had your slot as likely scum by default, and are finding retroactive justification.

"I find it hard to believe your argument (about what I said to Binatog) is in good faith. I think you saw me saying your slot was likely scum on the previous page and are now pushing me because I said that, because you are scum" is what I'm reading. Prism can correct me if I'm way off or something.

[frogsfrogs]

Two separate ideas there. I put my RVS on Prism because her contradiction gave off enough of a ping that I thought it needed to be addressed. It is a disagreement in how she approached "helping" Bina which I can see, but since 146 I've been getting a stronger scum read. She's resorted to "retroactive justification" on my slot which I can only assume to be a scum read on an afk that got replaced out for reasons unbeknownst to her. She has chosen to ignore when I addressed it in 159. She's also ignored 161 for some reason and only focused her engagement with me on the contradiction. Her vote on me is just repeating the same stuff again without adding any new substance.

Ehhh unfortunately I think "repeating the same stuff again without adding any new substance" is describes your push on Prism too. This confrontation only happened a few hours ago and Prism logged off, there's only so much evolution reads can go through in that time.
I have already said I think your understanding of her read on you is faulty, plus I don't blame her for not responding to 161, it's not the most substantial post.

I think 197 and 198 are just super scummy looking & this second explanation doesn't make up for it to me. This is uhhh, E-2. The third vote on hunterr.

VOTE: hunterr

[frogsfrogs]

hunterr, could you explain why you think Prism is scum? Especially why you think the comments you think are contradicting are scum indicative?

Do you have a read on Taly, Dragons? Or on Meteor Tome?

[frogsfrogs]

Oops, god

[frogsfrogs]

Hey Laplacian, would you tell me what mafia experience you have? I think this is your first game on site but have you played in forums anywhere else / other mafia games? Just asking to try and contextualize your approach to the game

[frogsfrogs]

Also, a theory that checks a lot of boxes for me: All SE are town, **scumteam is Meteor Tome and Laplacian**.

I think this theory is really interesting!! Scum taking one of each side on the Binatog thing is reasonable for them to do.
I townread Laplacian for 83 because it reads as pretty natural to me & I felt like that explanation made his previous posts make sense-- he sees pushing Binatog as gathering information and doesn't see an issue or doesn't factor in if he's really a PR. He seems to heavily scumread quiet players, which looks to me like a consistent perspective on valuing information. It's hard to point directly at, but this kind of consistency / making sense through all of his posts is something I don't expect from scum, especially potentially newbie scum.
Meteor Tome I have been lightly scumreading so far. I agree with you that their Binatog posts are easy enough for scum to make and I haven't seen all that much from them. I'd really like to get their read on hunterr, now, actually. I think it's pretty easy for their partner to be another player, not nessecarily Laplacian.

[frogsfrogs]

Yeah, first game on this site. I have a decent chunk of experience, but it's usually been in person games or role heavy versions like town of salem. This is the first long-term forum version I've played. I think the slowest I played before this was a discord one with 24 hour days.

Oh neat, thanks!! I'm actually from a super similar situation but +1 game on here

[frogsfrogs]

Taly, now hunterr, Meteor Tome, + dragons, maybe, continues to be my scum pool. I don't think it's worth pushing Binatog until at least d2.

[frogsfrogs]

Taly said he'd reply to 72 & 86 and I'm interested in that, but he really needs to read hunterr too please.

[frogsfrogs]

Oh right. WINfried how do you reconcile your read that the scum team is Laplacian / Meteor Tome with the fact that Meteor is scum reading Laplacian?

[frogsfrogs]

231 above was a misquote, I was talking to Dragons there, but thanks for the update from you too.

[frogsfrogs]

Lol, it's ridiculous to speculate that her read on my slot was what caused me to push her. Am I not making myself clear that the contradiction was my RVS vote, and that her interaction with me after is the reason why I still want her killed? Prism immediately getting defensive and finding credence on her read for my slot based on my RVS is not pinging anyone else as strange?[/post]

Ehhh, no. Firstly, the RVS comment was something I said about you while you were still catching up, so it's funny to see you pick it up. Prism questioned your vote on her and I said, like, "Yeah, whatever, that's basically just an RVS vote. He should tell us what he thinks about you once he's read all the posts." and then your answers to why Prism is scum since then have only been unsatisfactory and unconvincing that you really believe them, to me. :I
I see Prism having a reaction to your push, yes, but it reads to me as 1. real and 2. like a reaction someone of either alignment could legitimately have. I think your reasons for voting her are frankly.. bad? and also so oddly about her as a player / person. I don't buy into the theory that your push on her is because she had been talking about scumreading your slot ("retroactive justification"), but I do not see saying that as alignment indicative. Although she creates this theory in 146, she does not seem desperate, nor even emotional, here to me. :/ The first talks about feeling frustrated with the game is in 181 and it's because of

Dragons

. None of this is necessarily scum reaction and I see so many townie posts from Prism.

Labeling a slot as scum when you don't know the circumstances of the player replacing out is mind-boggling and I can't believe multiple players have this sentiment. A call to action for other players to participate is not at all alignment indicative and I have no idea why you think it would be. Continuing to push for activity from players that have repeatedly refused and have kept their game consistent despite those requests is puzzling.

You're responding to Binatog here, not me and I don't have anything to say to this. I just disagree.

I gave my argument against Prism and have provided reasons why I did so, why do you think nothing new is being added from my end? Any reason why you think 161, where she asks players to change how they play due to being SEs (as if that is some big reason to become more active), is not substantial? Number 1 rule in mafia is to keep your game consistent despite your alignment, is it not?

I

at least feel like I'm going in circles trying to reply to you! 161 is fine. I'm not outraged by it and it doesn't read as scum to me. Your objection to it only seems to be based on its mafia strategy moral righteousness. Because it's a "wrong thing to say" you're trying to scum read it. If you're really a townie, you're focusing on weirdly game irrelevant things and interrogating playstyles instead of reading people based on actual play.

I wanted to make a post about how I think I found the words to explain why the progression in 197 and 198 to 200 read as scummy to me but like, I am sick of this argument lol. Hate feeling like I'm talking for/over Prism. Still think hunterr is most likely scum.

[frogsfrogs]

oh nooooooo shit I messed up that formatting bad. :'D Apologies everyone for not hitting preview this once. Paragraphs #2 and #4 in the quote are me.

[frogsfrogs]

Completely disagree with this and Bina should be pressed more for his reasoning on that post. No reason to take it slow when someone drops a fucking bombshell on the game.

You read Laplacian's 56 and my replies at 61 & 69 at least once before. What do you think is the best/worst case scenarios for forcing Binatog to say more on day 1? Do we really gain more if he's scum than we lose if he's a real PR?

[frogsfrogs]

I gave my scum lean on Taly for RVS posts before but have liked his recent posts.

What recent posts from them have you liked and why?

You tagged WINfried earlier for a post in which he ignored a page or two of discussion, calling it full on sus, but Taly has been around and completely failed to comment on your push on Prism or the push on you. Is that acceptable from him? Why?

[frogsfrogs]

sorry, not to bombard you hunterr, lol. I just post a lot and you've said the most since I was last on.

[frogsfrogs]

Lol, it's ridiculous to speculate that her read on my slot was what caused me to push her. Am I not making myself clear that the contradiction was my RVS vote, and that her interaction with me after is the reason why I still want her killed? Prism immediately getting defensive and finding credence on her read for my slot based on my RVS is not pinging anyone else as strange?

Ehhh, no. Firstly, the RVS comment was something I said about you while you were still catching up, so it's funny to see you pick it up. Prism questioned your vote on her and I said, like, "Yeah, whatever, that's basically just an RVS vote. He should tell us what he thinks about you once he's read all the posts." and then your answers to why Prism is scum since then have only been unsatisfactory and unconvincing that you really believe them, to me. :I
I see Prism having a reaction to your push, yes, but it reads to me as 1. real and 2. like a reaction someone of either alignment could legitimately have. I think your reasons for voting her are frankly.. bad? and also so oddly about her as a player / person. I don't buy into the theory that your push on her is because she had been talking about scumreading your slot ("retroactive justification"), but I do not see saying that as alignment indicative. Although she creates this theory in 146, she does not seem desperate, nor even emotional, here to me. :/ The first talks about feeling frustrated with the game is in 181 and it's because of

Dragons

. None of this is necessarily scum reaction and I see so many townie posts from Prism.

Labeling a slot as scum when you don't know the circumstances of the player replacing out is mind-boggling and I can't believe multiple players have this sentiment. A call to action for other players to participate is not at all alignment indicative and I have no idea why you think it would be. Continuing to push for activity from players that have repeatedly refused and have kept their game consistent despite those requests is puzzling.

You're responding to Binatog here, not me and I don't have anything to say to this. I just disagree.

I gave my argument against Prism and have provided reasons why I did so, why do you think nothing new is being added from my end? Any reason why you think 161, where she asks players to change how they play due to being SEs (as if that is some big reason to become more active), is not substantial? Number 1 rule in mafia is to keep your game consistent despite your alignment, is it not?

I

at least feel like I'm going in circles trying to reply to you! 161 is fine. I'm not outraged by it and it doesn't read as scum to me. Your objection to it only seems to be based on its mafia strategy moral righteousness. Because it's a "wrong thing to say" you're trying to scum read it. If you're really a townie, you're focusing on weirdly game irrelevant things and interrogating playstyles instead of reading people based on actual play.

I wanted to make a post about how I think I found the words to explain why the progression in 197 and 198 to 200 read as scummy to me but like, I am sick of this argument lol. Hate feeling like I'm talking for/over Prism. Still think hunterr is most likely scum.

--

There we go. Edit of 257 for formatting by way of second post.

[frogsfrogs]

See you Prism, best of luck!

[frogsfrogs]

I don't buy into the theory that your push on her is because she had been talking about scumreading your slot ("retroactive justification"),

This point about me reading ahead is similar to the one Prism was making and it reads like you're just piggybacking her thought process... strange.

I don't subscribe to the reading ahead theory and said so in the above sentence of my post, actually.

[frogsfrogs]

I feel like I'm stuck in a different circle where we keep conversing about this and I keep repeating the same shit over and over again failing to get my read on Prism across to you. I'm starting to think you're intentionally keeping this loop going because I believe I have made myself very clear. What is actual play even referring to?

By "actual play" I mean assessing players based on their votes, quality of reads, activity and demeanor in the thread, etc. I see what Prism said at the beginning of the game to Binatog + her describing her play philosophy as an SE to be so so irrelevant to alignment in this game. Your other arguments about Prism's comment to the SEs and her reaction to your push are more on topic but I disagree totally with what you think they mean.

You point out some posts of mine that read scummy yet you don't expand on them because you're sick of my argument with Prism? Those two lines of thoughts are completely independent from themselves. No one's asked you to voice what Prism was trying to say, you took that upon yourself.

You said yourself, above, that this back and forth is tiring for you too! You're right that I don't have to be defending Prism's slot here, and I don't want to be locking myself into that, it's just that You vs Prism is so integral to this argument that's it's been hard to break away from. The longer this goes on the easier it is to doubt myself into believing nothing. Those two things are what I was trying to say here. "Intentionally trying to keep this loop open" I am not, and, while obviously we're all trying to size each other up here, all the time, I find how eager you are to read ill intent into this as weird (and scummy, honestly, but like, I'm worried I'm confbiasing and am gonna step back from arguing

at

you now because it's nothing.)

[frogsfrogs]

Welcome, Not Known!! Yeah, I hope Meteor hasn't also had to drop out, the odd spread of activity has been hard in this game so far.
I won't be voting for Dragons just for pressure but yeah, I wish we would get some reads explanation. Especially on the Not Known slot.

[frogsfrogs]

I agree that it's worrying how little Taly has had to say about recent discussion. Still scumreading him and I want to move away from hunter so

VOTE: Taly

This is the third Taly vote right now, E-2

[frogsfrogs]

That analysis from dragons looks pretty good to me! I like the amount of town-leaning reads here and that he seems to be actively weighing his options & changing his mind.

[frogsfrogs]

@ahhlo you can look at players' past games by going to their profile and searching through posts! This kind of research and reading of people's metagames happens fairly often on this site. WINfried should respond to your accusation though.

As for my post about Meteor Tome (your slot), 157, I think I was responding to hunterr's 90 where he said he thought Meteor kept repeating himself and that his vote didn't look genuine. This was a concern about Meteor that I shared, and

he

was already talking about reactions to Binatog, so I said a bit more about why I was scumreading Meteor (because their reaction to Binatog's soft looked easily faked)

[frogsfrogs]

We've only got three days left. Are there slots who haven't cast a single vote yet?

[frogsfrogs]

Lol, by the way what is this? Refusing to pressure vote STD for reads but completely fine with pressure voting Taly?

... I scumread Taly far more than I do Dragons??? I'm not just "pressure voting", I like Taly for our lim today but don't want Dragons. I don't think pressure voting Dragons at this point is a good move. What are you driving at.

[frogsfrogs]

Sorry, just catching up right now, I'm gonna reply to some older posts as I do!

[frogsfrogs]

people: post justification for your reads
me: okay i'll do that
people: you're scum

Agreed to the spirit of this take, actually Dragons is an experienced player, I definitely believe that reads post

could

have totally been faked by him, but I see nothing explicitly suspicious in it. Someone

(Not Known, at first? Before making the reasonable argument about whether reads have been asked for before?)

said they thought it was scummy for Dragons to change his play now, but would you have scumread him

less

if he continued to be low content..? I would have scumread him more, over time, for that. I'm not townlocking him or anything but I need something about him to scumping me before making a push, and his reads post and demeanor so far hasn't done that

[frogsfrogs]

"Intentionally trying to keep this loop open" I am not, and, while obviously we're all trying to size each other up here, all the time, I find how eager you are to read ill intent into this as weird (and scummy, honestly, but like, I'm worried I'm confbiasing and am gonna step back from arguing

at

you now because it's nothing.

)

Bold feels like OMGUS so it looks like you're getting frustrated with me which was not my intention.

I don't understand the way you're using OMGUS here. Usually the term describes someone voting for / scumreading someone because they had just voted / scumread them? I've already been scumreading you for a while, so I think you're just describing that I'm talking about

an

emotional state

[frogsfrogs]

Oh I

hate

to be wrong but UNVOTE:

fferyllt's reads of the game do not look constructed at all. Her Not Known stance at this point is a nuanced one that I super mindmeld with. Like, I townread Prism pretty hard, especially for her real seeming emotional stake in the game, but Not Known has confused me a bit. I think the read on Dragons is questionable, but the stubborn consistency of it ? I'm not sure if it's someone who's getting stuck through bias or if it's on purpose.

[frogsfrogs]

Feeling very @_@ at this point.

I think I still scumread the ahhlo slot, though ahhlo's inexperience on this site and his very few posts so far make him hard for me to read with confidence. The premise of 290 and 291 that WINfried and Binatog were doing theater seems wild and baseless, and the lack of engagement since isn't a good sign.

I'm actually pretty willing to vote Not Known, now, despite being unsure of my read. I think flipping that slot gives us a fair amount of information.

WINfried and maybe Dragons I should do an ISO reread of and check myself, soon

[frogsfrogs]

Ok, agreed, WINfried, that the players who were left out was the most objectionable part of Dragon's first reads post.

[frogsfrogs]

You mention 209 as looking bad to you, fferyllt. What makes it so? Just because you thought the Binatog post was townie looking, or is it something in hunterr's approach?

[frogsfrogs]

Like two days left on the timer. I was scum so I didn't pay attention to this in my first game, lol, is the theory / strategy that it's best to lim d1?

[frogsfrogs]

Appreciate that a ton fferyllt! Thanks

[frogsfrogs]

uuaaggghhh I feel bad for this one, tbh, because I can tell you've been overwhelmed, but on the basis of where I was at with Meteor Tome--

VOTE: ahhlo

If we get closer to deadline and there's nothing yet, I'm willing to go Not Known, too, but this is my preferred vote

[frogsfrogs]

Ahh, best of luck hunterr! And Binatog too!

This time of year is rough ^ ^''

[frogsfrogs]

Super agree on the reasons to read WINfried as town. I'm constantly remembering that I don't have enough experience to really know what scum plays like, lol, but the thing I think I struggled with most as a first timer, myself, was creating posts that looked

real

while trying to gain a scumread on someone or change my mind about a scumread. It's become a dimension I've focused a lot on in this game, I think.
The tone and the arguments WINfried have taken throughout this first day have read as so natural to me. I understand where he's coming from and

why

I disagree with him on certain players, when we do. It's something I was kind of taking from Prism, too, but as an SE maybe I should have been considering her with a larger grain of salt, because Not Known's posts now strike me as super unnatural. 399 and avoiding explaining his jump off of STD look really bad. Not Known, was there a reason you didn't explain your reconsideration of STD in the thread, at first?

[frogsfrogs]

Well, so much for the case I was writing up of Bin + Taly scumteam based on Taly's lack of activity. It had precise time stamps and everything -_-. Apparently SE stands for sudden exit. Anyway, hi fferylit, your reads mostly match up with mine so far so I'm provisionally calling you town. Welcome to the game

Pocket.exe initiated... and the case vanishes.

Very suspicious.

Could you explain your use of "pocket" here? It isn't jiving with my understanding of the term right now.
What do you say to Laplacian's 377 where he responded to this question already? Surely you saw it if you did an ISO read through.

Yeah, two days left means we should probably all start stating cases and read lists before we all hop on a wagon. Binatog is still my #1 scumread with his early post and refusal to elaborate/engage. If people make good cases I'm also willing to vote for Meteor/ahhlo, Prism/NK, or Taly/ff. While I feel bad voting replacements out when they haven't had much time in game, all of those slots have pinged me as sus at least once. I'm neutral to slight town for Dragons, hunterr, and Win, and strong town on frogs.

Explanation missing.

Explanation for which part? And why is a lack of explanation on said part of the post scummy? Ask a question of Laplacian first, maybe, if you don't know what he's saying.

Note that my 'willing to vote list' there is basically in order of most to least sus. Both Meteor and ahhlo have pinged me as a bit scummy. Prism was weirdly aggressive and NK feels suspicious. And while I had a decent case against Taly, ff's posts and approach gives me enough town vibes to soften the entire slot

Mostly surface reads. Again.

So, this ISO mainly consists of surface reads, badly explained "reads" and one instance of pocketing where a case just vanishes instead of being brought into light altered, with caveats. Does town write up a big case and then drops all of the work just because a slot has become more towny? Looks like scum lying about having a substantial big case, or not being interested in being helpful.

Explanation needed.

[frogsfrogs]

WINfried's 418 is a theory I really like to see made. I have not done enough reading back to catch stuff like this and I think it outlines something plausible! Do you think this page is theater though, WINfried?

[frogsfrogs]

Hello both of you! Interested to see Meg's catch up too now.

Tejate, you said "some" things stuck out to you as scummy about Laplacian but only talked about how long he stayed on Binatog, is there anything else you're worried about?

[frogsfrogs]

Not Known, would you respond to 408 or Laplacian's 409 about your push?

[frogsfrogs]

I'm caught up and I like winfried/ nk15 for town.
Don't want to eliminate in laplacian/std
Kind of feeling fferylim atm

What about Not Known's slot is striking you as town so far? Dragons has been pretty controversial over time, what are you thinking about him? And why fferyllt lim? Gonna be honest, don't like this reads list.

[frogsfrogs]

Not fully caught up but I'm super not liking MegAzumarill's posts I've seen so far + lack of responding to questions. I super scumread hunterr, I'm not seeing better from Meg yet. I don't want ahhlo hammered now.

VOTE: MegAzumarill

[frogsfrogs]

I still probably scumread ahhlo, but I dislike the speed that this wagon came together at (I REALLY don't like MegAzumarill's speed wagon comment) and I think this lim gives us

very

little info compared to how juicy a Not Known slot or MegAzumarill slot flip will be.

[frogsfrogs]

I asked specific questions about your reads in [post]471/[post], also, Mega, surely those are answerable

[frogsfrogs]

The answer is no because if you flip me today they are the scummiesr player going into tomorrow
Cut out the middleman

If you flip scum I'm not voting ahhlo tomorrow. :/ If either of you were the lim today and flip town I'd be in the same situation I am now.

[frogsfrogs]

Really sorry you're having trouble ahhlo. I don't want to be in thread how it is right now so I'll be back tomorrow!

[frogsfrogs]

I think it's quite bizarre for Meg to vote me and then tell

others

to discuss.

After a sleep I'm thinking a little clearer.
I realized there was some wagon jumping from ffery to ahhlo to me
Which I realize is exactly what scum would want to do.

Is this true though..? Ahhlo was at e-1. That's a widely scumread slot, and unless you mean that scum need to start another wagon to protect him because he's part of the team, scum should be happy to push the mislim through. Do you think that ahhlo and I are scum

together

despite me having scumread that slot as Meteor Tome all game? Do you think fferyllt, who was the first vote on you, is the partner, but you voted me instead?? I don't understand your assessment of the situation. It seems more like you're jumping ship from ahhlo in a scramble to do

something

new and combat the scumreads based on your play so far.

[frogsfrogs]

I'm happy to discuss my votes so far if needed, but I think I've been pretty clear about who I'm willing to lim and why. Are there vote hops of mine that actually seem unexplained or opportunistic?

[frogsfrogs]

What you are doing is the scummy part not why

If you can't analyze the pattern to see / not see scum intent then you're setting yourself up for a mislim, bud. This is nothing.

[frogsfrogs]

The thing that holds me back the most from certainty that Meg's slot is scum is the lack of possible partners. My next most confident scumread would be Not Known, but the two of them are the same slots as hunterr/prism and there's no way that's the scumteam. Fferyllt is probably also excluded for voting Meg now. It'd have to be Meg/Dragons or Meg/ someone I'm strongly townreading, unless ahhlo was nearly bussed.

[frogsfrogs]

I don't know where the "ahhlo claimed VT" case even comes from, unless I missed something in their posts, which is possible because I haven't been really reading them. If that read only comes from the fact that ahhlo didn't claim a PR at e-1, that's pretty flimsy.

[frogsfrogs]

I don't think ahhlo is familiar enough with Mafia conventions for that to be taken as anything at all.

[frogsfrogs]

It would be sick, wish it were true too

[frogsfrogs]

Sounds right to me, Tejate! I don't think I'm interested in voting ahhlo today, myself, anymore on the basis that 1. It gives so little info and 2. Meg was on that train though lol

[frogsfrogs]

Oh I super like this Amished tell theory tbh. Agreed that it's not a hard rule, but it definitely betrays a sort of insecurity with your own slot's alignment.

what pinged you as scum about hunterr while you read the game the first time, Meg? Specific and detailed explanation preferred? Let's talk through it, then

[frogsfrogs]

I'd be willing to compromise on an STD wagon if it's last minute, maybe? I think the vote count is 1 vote - STD, 2 vote - Mega, 3 vote - ahhlo?

[frogsfrogs]

UNVOTE: MegAzumarill

. Welcome, T3.

[frogsfrogs]

Yeah Meg was not at E-1 lol. I think the way I formatted my half-remembered votecount above accidentally tricked Tejate. Oops if that's so D:

[frogsfrogs]

Everyone please be careful in the way you comment on this roleclaim now, btw. Whether you believe it or not is an implication of your role in itself and we don't need to give that to scum. Make your comments on the situation with intent, if not strategy lol.

[frogsfrogs]

lol at 758. Yeah, I'm still townreading fferyllt. Her demeanor and contributions read nothing like scum to me. None of these posts where she refers to alignment ping to me at all. I am keeping the slot's history in mind, but I have to figure that Taly was trying out a playstyle that just did not read well to the rest of us. I'd far prefer Meg, STD, or Not Known for lim.

[frogsfrogs]

Oh jeez, I literally came back to the game and forgot that I unvoted Meg. Apologies, this is game is a real trip lmao

[frogsfrogs]

WINfried, Laplacian : Solid Townreads

Fferyllt, Tejate : Feeling good about them

T3 : Feeling ok about, but they're not caught up yet

Save The Dragons : Do not even know anymore. Scum I GUESS.

Not Known 15 : Scum. Still not super confident about it

MegAzumarill : PR claim, intentionally not ranked

[frogsfrogs]

My mind blanked out the last two pages for a second. It's my bad :')

[frogsfrogs]

VOTE: Save The Dragons

I'll definitely check back in tomorrow and think about moving my vote. A fresh day start in this game will be so nice lol, can't wait.

[frogsfrogs]

This is a really good point!! Laplacian should explain himself on this one. I was going to offer the my assumption about why he's saying this but I'm holding back for him to go first

[frogsfrogs]

...I understand reads and voting being in flux but this is a fast turnaround, WIN. Is my Dragons vote and a tonal change you think you're sensing the basis of your scumread right now? My vote position on wagons that others are mentioning?

[frogsfrogs]

kinda unimpressed with frog's response to sudden pressure. may be the time of night though.

I am super thrown off this evening for a number of reasons including the late hour, yes. @_@

[frogsfrogs]

Worst case you are just another mislim, best case we elim scum and get good info on meg (in my book get them cleared), super best case you are actual mafia roleblocker and we might even get meg become a functional cop again.

If Meg is a real cop, do they not clear themselves?? Why do you need to chase a flip on me to get Mega's alignment? They're the obvious kill tonight in a goon/goon game. In an rber game, they're likely going to get stuck roleblocked every night, but the lack of a CC proves them. If a CC isn't coming today, it needs to happen tomorrow or someone is playing

badly

. If you think that I'm a high information flip, fine, but you need to reconsider what info you're actually getting from me. In fact, with the mostly townreads I've been getting I think I am far

lower

information than a fferyllt or Dragons flip, where they both have made and received some strong scumreads.

[frogsfrogs]

WINfried, Laplacian : Solid Townreads

Fferyllt, Tejate : Feeling good about them

T3 : Feeling ok about, but they're not caught up yet

Save The Dragons : Do not even know anymore. Scum I GUESS.

Not Known 15 : Scum. Still not super confident about it

MegAzumarill : PR claim, intentionally not ranked

VOTE: Save The Dragons

I wonder how this makes you feel.

To this, since you seem to be gesturing to these posts as contradictory: These reads are massively in flux as we approach the end of the day, but I've been waffling a ton on my Not Known read in particular. :I I think his play has been blatantly scummy, but he's an infrequent poster, making reading harder. I am apparently one of few who saw Prism as town and I actually thought that very strongly, so that continues to color my view of the slot. Dragons is a slot I have far less complicated thoughts about and that I think will be meaningful whether he flips red or green, so I picked him as my first choice wagon. That's it. Not Known, Dragons, fferyllt are all the slots I am fine with voting for day 1 (though I don't prefer fferyllt)

[frogsfrogs]

And there is literally only one townping I received on you since the entire game.

Ah... I apparently arrogantly assumed you townread me higher than that, because I didn't realize this was the case. I think this is in-character for you either way and I'm certainly not seeing scum motivation from this, so. There's that.

I can't exactly ask anyone to read through my whole previous game where I was scum but I can assure you this game has been way different for me. And that the difference is because I'm town now :I

[frogsfrogs]

I really like Tejate's argument here (+town) and their response in 854 is correct-- The way that Laplacian is approaching MegAzumarill and their role claim is not the point at all. It's specifically the way that Lap is using the role claim as an opportunity to shade Tejate's slot without consideration for the possibility that they're a real PR. I do think Lap's response is baaad looking here and there's a

chance

it's a scum slip, but I need to see more Lap posts while I mull over my read. Either way, he should respond and then drop this case & place a real vote for end of day.

[frogsfrogs]

Let's

please

not no lim, everybody

[frogsfrogs]

Not Known has zero reason to cc when he does unless he is a real cop or fferyllt is his partner. I will eat my hat at this point if fferyllt is not town, let alone partners with the Not Known slot, but more importantly, it implies that a scum Not Known flip OR a scum ffery flip is a solve. Flipping Meg right now, I think, gives both of these slots alignments.

I super think the scumteam could be Mega / T3. These slots have interacted basically none all game + the way that T3 is arguing hard for a ffery lim (and some of his verbiage about the setup??) strikes me as scummy as hell. Ages ago I thought it might be hunterr/Meteor Tome, and now here we are. This vote is E-2, the third now on Mega.

VOTE: MegAzumarill

[frogsfrogs]

Or no no, right!! Apologies again, of course Not Known has a vote here too. @_@ E-1

[frogsfrogs]

Or no no, right!! Apologies again, of course Not Known has a vote here too. @_@ E-1

I see we are sticking to our ways.

My ways of mucking up a vote count? oh yeah.

[frogsfrogs]

Perhaps this isn't needed, but just to make sure it's out there,

Semi-complete list of moments Prism / Not Known's slot is absolutely not partners with Taly / fferyllt's slot:

How serious is the vote? I've seen this argument be placed on both alignments enough to consider it NAI

Better than random, far from definitive.

Noted

Prism

seems lower temperature than my recent experience with them but this also pretty early and the game I reference was very different in terms of playerlist and mechanics.

I think outing an expectation of more hyperagression/tilt in response to bad pushes on me, on page 2, is counterproductive if you're hoping to read me with it. I had the only vaguely serious vote as a bonus.

I would like to see you place a vote soon.

Taly, I was really hoping for more here on the reads front.

VOTE: Taly

You're expressing skepticism of the votes on Binatog but not actually weighing in on the players. I have other thoughts but they will wait.

I'm not forcing it

Prism

, this game is denser than others in terms of posting rate relative to content.

Plus I've got my hands full with IRL work and other games

Expecting reads from me on various players by now is reasonable, and it's also reasonable to assume this post is some sort of deflection from solving as I've been accused of that before, but that's not what is happening.

[...]

Also,

Prism

, my initial read on you was more of a way to help me read you rather than a definitive statement. You seemed cautious about my townping on you but it doesn't register as a mafia cautious to me.

I am concerned you're expecting me to townread resisting my pressure to vote, and I do not. What do you think of the "gamestate" at the moment, given its high density, low activity, and focus on a PR soft?
[...]

Also,

Prism

, my initial read on you was more of a way to help me read you rather than a definitive statement. You seemed cautious about my townping on you but it doesn't register as a mafia cautious to me.

...Am I supposed to be cautious of a townping on me as mafia?

[...]
I'm voting Taly because I found him to be virtually a free read in Slaughter Hour. The fact that he has not been that way this game concerns me, and I think he would have followed me onto a vote were he town. I also really feel that the resistance to voting in response to my suggestion was performative rather than legitimately contemplative of the pros/cons.

I don't like Taly's posts, think half the game takes time and flips to confidently sort but have as default-town, and the other half aren't really posting.

Okay, Taly, let's try this: Is there a progression or vote from frogs that you don't think makes sense, and would like me to take a look at when I have time?

Nothing specifically because a logical fallacy is not what I'm concerned with regarding what could be scum indicative here.

I'm also just extremely swamped IRL at the moment and might just go VLA for a day or two

(The actual scum motivation here would be placing strategic bets that you and Taly would not take me up on it. You are a safe one, Taly is not, Taly can flip the switch and obvtown on a dime. Even if I can engineer a townread from him the concern will always be getting PoE'd, and the longer he stays sidelined the better it would be FMPOV)

Thanks for the ego stroke <3 ily

Taly has been guilty of the same, so...VOTE: taly

fferyllt's 343 (Responds to some Not Known posts in her read through, sees them as mostly bad)

fferyllt's 357 (Is trying to meta read Not Known, concludes that he might be acting within scum meta but there's not enough data)

Pocket.exe initiated... and the case vanishes. Very suspicious.

You realize your characterization fits your own trajectory on STD? In fact, your trajectory is more extreme.

I've asked you what changed your read of STD. I'd really like an answer.

[frogsfrogs]

Funny that although the only slot you have special information on is Not Known, Meg, you're still trying to associate these slots in the face of evidence against it, rather than even considering a case here in which Not Known is playing a bizarre scum game

[frogsfrogs]

Have a good night phase everyone.

[frogsfrogs]

Yeah, all applause to Prism, assuming Not Known is a scum flip. @_@ damn!

[frogsfrogs]

VOTE: Not Known

This is E-2. @_@ I feel waaaay lost in this game at this point. I don't think fferyllt is scum at all, the cop claim has to have been some misguided scum play. Between Tejate and Laplacian I think Laplacian is slightly more likely to be partner? (From what I remember, only. Haven't read through either of these slots' post together yet like I did fferyllt / Not Known) But I don't like this choice. Both read as so town to me.

Is there a world where Dragons is still the second scum? Where 326 & 327 is some of that aggressive distancing? Prrrobably not, now that I'm reviewing. There was an active wagon on Taly and this looks too real from Dragons to me.

[frogsfrogs]

Incidentally, checking back, guess who were the 3 people on that wagon excluding the dead (Meg)?

Yep. Myself, frogsfrogs, and Laplacian, the exact 3 people I wanted to discuss. Although I believe frogsfrogs pulled out before either of us.

Is this (the ahhlo voters) really indicative of town T3 though? I think it was an easy wagon, yes, but the grouping of us three here is just as easily three townies. We know that Meg was.

[frogsfrogs]

DAMN IT.........
This is my curse. E-.

[frogsfrogs]

1*

Tejate, not really! I think that's the best pool to be looking at right now. I just dread to stick to that and lose to game to like, a T3 who we never even looked at.

[frogsfrogs]

I'm going to try and read through full Tejate and Laplacian ISOs soon, if not overnight, but real life stuff is tough and this game is a wild one.

[frogsfrogs]

Would you mind analyzing what you think these posts mean, then, T3? What are you getting from them?

[frogsfrogs]

There was no reason for Not Known to vote Taly when he did if that slot is his partner :I He was the second vote on them at the time. Is Not Known both so aggressive that he distances by risking bussing but then also CCs to protect fferyllt? Is fferyllt the mafia PR and thus too important to lose or not. And what do you have to say about fferyllt's behavior since..? Not voting meg, constantly insisting they should be limmed first so town can solve correctly?

[frogsfrogs]

..And hi Dwlee :''D

[frogsfrogs]

I think insisting that the second scum is fferyllt instead of considering the other options is only counterproductive at this point. Even if she's your preferred lim tomorrow, we should be thinking about two suspects in case you're wrong.

[frogsfrogs]

Sure has!

[frogsfrogs]

We should be looking at everyone, yes, but I think our numbers dictate that we lim NK, the first scum today, get another lim tomorrow, and then are in ELO. We only mechanically get two chances.

[frogsfrogs]

I think the time to prepare was the most important aspect of waiting to hammer for today. Thinking that you're likely to be the kill tonight but having analysis / info that you really want to be seen is the only reason to post stuff now imo. We want scum to be making a kill fairly blind tonight.

[frogsfrogs]

I didn't expect a Tejate kill. I felt like a ton of our consideration yesterday was placed solely on Meg voters and like Tejate wasn't necessarily more townread than others. Seeing this kill, my first thought that was maybe the second scum has reason to try and not kill the mason..

[frogsfrogs]

I think Prism's odd little confirmation argument on T3's slot is a sign that he's not the partner, but I honestly haven't especially liked his posts for town otherwise. His arguing for fferyllt as the lim day 1 didn't necessarily read as genuine to me and is easily scum motivated because of the situation we were in. If we limmed ffery-- assuming that's a town flip, as I am-- we went into the 1v1 with "proof" of Not Known being the more real cop. Scum wouldn't have known yet that the PRs were really masons.

[frogsfrogs]

Ah, that makes sense to me then, Tejate being the strategic kill in that way. Interesting..

[frogsfrogs]

I'm not sure if the amount of pushing that Not Known did on Lap is actually too far for the slots to be partners? I'm going through posts for prism/not known/laplacian all together right now, though.

Can you explain your overall analysis, Lap? You think that the way that NK pushed for you is visibly too much, but that this likely means someone who was voted for

more often

by the NK slot is likely the partner?

[frogsfrogs]

At this point in the game I feel very in limbo.

[...]

Laplacian/Meteor give a lot of reasoning but I don't feel strongly about them either way. I townlean Meteor's defense of Binatog but am concerned it is TMI. Both are likely town for activity+reasoning by default. I've been over Binatog.

[...]

How is this argument between Prism and hunterr supposed to work anyway; it seems both heated and trivial at the same time? Ultimately, hunterr's initial suspicion on Prism started with a few posts within the first 24 hours. (Now, not to sound like a broken record, but if we want to laser-focus on an early sus posts, how about we come back to Bin's softclaim that they yet again brushed off?)

To me, this whole debate on the last two pages between hunterr and Prism feels like they're both posting so much that there's more and more content to nitpick over and thus find anything you disagree with. Even if Prism is trying to become the town leader as Dragons postulated, I still think that's less suspicious than the relatively low content we've seen from some posters like Taly and Meteor. Really, I feel the same way about the push against hunterr: he's aggressive, but zeroing in on wording isn't sus, and he's thrown out a lot more comments and thoughts then just interrograting Prism.

Reads and their explainations are always good to post and share and I think there's some valid debate here, but I can't help but feel both pushes are distracting us from more important conversations and analyses.

Prism and Laplacian interacted pretty little, which is notable. A lot of Prism's reads at the point of 115 are null, including the bundle of Laplacian with the Meteor / T3 slot, but she makes a specific point about Meteor's behavior re: Binatog's soft and says nothing about Lap's opposite reaction to the situation. She next says that she'd specifically be willing to vote Lap, if it were wanted. It seems like [1. Taly, 2. Laplacian] is the preferred vote order she's offering, but it's very quickly moved away from, as the STD/Dwlee and then hunterr/Meg slot become large focuses, as well as Taly/ffery remaining so. I don't consider 119 to be one that Prism couldn't have made about her partner.

Laplacian makes minor engagements with Prism's posts but doesn't vocalize any specific read on the slot. 224 sticks out to me though, in retrospect. Lap does a

lot

of dismissing arguments against Prism instead of taking stances and then his read on hunterr feels pretty half-hearted. "He's aggressive, but zeroing in on wording isn't sus" seems almost like a TMI, the way he doesn't comment at all on the wording that's being zeroed in on + takes for granted that hunterr's other posts are better. If it's scum!Laplacian, it makes a lot of sense for him to take the opposite side to his partner Prism in this situation too. This isn't to say that I think Lap is for sure the partner, but, looking at just the time with Prism around so far, I'm not seeing reasons he couldn't be, and 224's not a great post.

Lap's inflexibility with reads that's been pointed out before is definitely my biggest concern. It's something I super failed to achieve in my first scumgame. It's been a bit hard to put effort into this game recently and it takes me forever to get my thoughts into words sometimes but I want to be looking for that when I put together his posts with NK, too.

[frogsfrogs]

[...] However, I can't see a world where 24% of his posts in a row accusing me of being scum is that kind of softbus play.

Do you think NK's push really endangered you, though?

[frogsfrogs]

Reading through specifically when Not Known and Laplacian voted each other, I'm seeing Lap's rebuttals as looking pretty genuine. The arguments that he makes back are sound and the emotional quality seems real.

No shit #378 was surface reads. I explicitly said "we should probably all start stating cases and readlists" and I've made my case against Binatog clear. For having my quote right there, you're really good at missing the first sentence. We were running out of time for day 1 vote, and only have a reprieve from this ticking clock because of so many dropouts. I want to know where everyone stands as we start voting. You want an in-depth explanation of any read, how about asking? I've been nothing but forthright with presenting details and clarifications when people either asked, or even just seemed confused about my statements.

The dropped argument thing is also garbage. I briefly summarized my dropped argument in #377 as "...predicated on Taly's lack of activity, but if it's enough to replace out that's a different case entirely." Laying low is not the same as dropping out, and thus my initial argument didn't work. For someone diving into my iso and making cases, seems

really

convenient to miss the post right above the one you tunnel on.

Meanwhile, you've been in for half the time I have and bounced around 5 different votes with the flimsiest of justifications. You're throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.
VOTE: Not Known 15

<massive repost>
This is the case.

Man, NK again reposts their "case" against me while ignoring my rebuttal. This entire schtick against me is based on omissions. Missing a key sentence, missing a post in a 3 post series while quoting the other 2, and now missing entire counter-argument. The first time I was willing to call an accident, but this is just blatant cherry-picking and tunneling on me. Especially when my rebuttal included a vote against them; that's not an easy thing to miss

What I don't like very much is the way that Laplacian unvotes between the two above posts, chalking his reaction up to OMGUS. I think his analysis of why NK's push was bad is a good one, and him being so easily swayed from it does make me raise an eyebrow?

[quote="In [url=viewtopic.php?p=13179063#p13179063]
Laplacian: Your vote is still on a pretty heavy towner. If you've read my last argument for that I hope you gave it some consideration. If you did, it's your vote, that's fine. But if not, please do. Your arguments against him are criticising behavior "throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks" is bad in the real world, but in mafia, on day 1, it's perfectly fine to try as townie and definitely better than nothing.

You're right. I stand by my rebuttal to NK's accusations, but the vote itself was an OMGUS vote combined with some IRL grumpiness from my microwave breaking. I'm not completely sold on NK being town, but you make good points.

UNVOTE: [/quote]

[frogsfrogs]

Ah. Formatting error for 433, the quote box is Laplacian's quote of WINfried and the below is a quote of Laplacian.

[frogsfrogs]

:/...? Real mason should claim here, yeah? If we're on a 1v1 that's game win.

[frogsfrogs]

If it's not Lap I think it's T3 tbh. Prism went so hard on both Dragons/Dwlee slot and Taly/fferyllt slot.

[frogsfrogs]

It's water long under the bridge, but I wonder what frogs meant by the bolded when this was posted.

If I'm remembering correctly, there were two votes on prism at the time and they were from hunterr and STD. I was just saying that since STD wasn't up for giving any explanation for his reads at the time, all I could respond to for reasons to scumread prism were hunterr's.

[frogsfrogs]

I super believe it's T3 at this point but I'm still terrified of a scum STD/Dwlee slipping through Prism and Not Known both pushed for fferyllt's slot, same as Dwlee's.

[frogsfrogs]

I can say that right now, as a townie, I knew everyone thought T3 was the mason but I was sure it was Dwlee

(Or did Dragons claim?? I don't think he did. Why was everyone so convinced of T3)

and I was really surprised that the kill was inside of our Tejate/Lap/Me elim pool. I think I would have killed T3, if not Dwlee.

[frogsfrogs]

I can see no one's posted since yesterday so uh @_@ We gonna hammer?

[frogsfrogs]

Definitely catching the same distancing vibe from these last two posts.

[frogsfrogs]

LOL

[frogsfrogs]

OK, nothing left to say now. Thanks ffery.

VOTE: fferyllt

[frogsfrogs]

Waiting to see what everyone says now.

[frogsfrogs]

..Nope

[frogsfrogs]

Who and why do you think it is, T3?

[frogsfrogs]

Want to elaborate? @_@

[frogsfrogs]

There's no way it's not T3. He voted me yesterday for, what, OMGUS and making a short comment agreeing that some of his posts looked bad? and now is trying to stick to that position but has done none of the work to actually prove me scum. Let's go for it.

VOTE: T3

[frogsfrogs]

I super believe it's T3 at this point but I'm still terrified of a scum STD/Dwlee slipping through Prism and Not Known both pushed for fferyllt's slot, same as Dwlee's.

Definitely catching the same distancing vibe from these last two posts.

I think I was pretty clear that you were my choice for scum for a while! Definitely before making this offhanded comment. And like, I'll admit I've been disengaged recently but I think I did a fair amount of looking into Laplacian. Once he claimed and it was clear there were only two/three options, I just wanted to pick a PoE and I gave my thoughts about you vs Dwlee.

Your

solving effort, T3, is my main point of scumread.

[frogsfrogs]

NK gave intent to hammer and then about 9 hours later I moved off of ahhlo slot onto Meg. Ahhlo was so dead as a slot at the time that I'd absolutely believe in NK thinking about bussing him.

[frogsfrogs]

Yeah LOL I screwed the hell up there. I don't think I've been comparable to my first scum game either, where I was nervous out of my mind and didn't take too many stances.

[frogsfrogs]

1 day 10 hours ?

[frogsfrogs]

Frogs do you just always roll scum? Do you happen to have have town games off-site I can look at?

Unfortunately no games off site, I'm a true beginner at forum mafia. And I've rolled scum twice so far, but no more, lol

[frogsfrogs]

I am currently entertaining the idea as frogs as scum and prism/nk15 being his potential buddy yes.

both prism and frogs generated early game towntells by going into minute details about binatogs prior games. could have been a case of shared info in PT

Winfried

When WINfried said minute details here he just means that.. I read a page of relevant posts after he linked one of Binatog's games and disagreed with his characterization of it. iirc Prism did some analysis of other binatog games. I absolutely didn't have to share or receive info to make the posts I did about the game WINfried brought up.

[frogsfrogs]

WINfried, Laplacian : Solid Townreads

Fferyllt, Tejate : Feeling good about them

T3 : Feeling ok about, but they're not caught up yet

Save The Dragons : Do not even know anymore. Scum I GUESS.

Not Known 15 : Scum. Still not super confident about it

MegAzumarill : PR claim, intentionally not ranked

VOTE: Save The Dragons

I'll definitely check back in tomorrow and think about moving my vote. A fresh day start in this game will be so nice lol, can't wait.

I wonder how this makes you feel.

Hmm this is a bad look. NK at bottom of reads list, votes me instead.

Not sure if you saw it already but I responded to this post at the time here:

To this, since you seem to be gesturing to these posts as contradictory: These reads are massively in flux as we approach the end of the day, but I've been waffling a ton on my Not Known read in particular. :I I think his play has been blatantly scummy, but he's an infrequent poster, making reading harder. I am apparently one of few who saw Prism as town and I actually thought that very strongly, so that continues to color my view of the slot. Dragons is a slot I have far less complicated thoughts about and that I think will be meaningful whether he flips red or green, so I picked him as my first choice wagon. That's it. Not Known, Dragons, fferyllt are all the slots I am fine with voting for day 1 (though I don't prefer fferyllt)

[frogsfrogs]

Also I'm surprised to say it considering how hard I was pushing their slot but... I feel like T3 is most likely town. In fact, I feel like the original ahhlo wagon likely had at least one scum on it. It would have been a pretty easy mis-elim had it not been stopped.

Incidentally, checking back, guess who were the 3 people on that wagon excluding the dead (Meg)?

Yep. Myself, frogsfrogs, and Laplacian, the exact 3 people I wanted to discuss. Although I believe frogsfrogs pulled out before either of us.

Winfried: suspected frogs, dies

Tejate: prevented frogs lim D1, lives

D2

Tejate: suspects frogs and dies

I think it's important here, though, that Tejate was constructing a pool out of themselves, me, and Laplacian. It seemed perfectly valid at the time to assume that the mason was outside of that pool. If I'm scum and stuck in this group, I want to get rid of the mason before they shrink the suspects further, like Laplacian did D3, & it seems like I have a perfect shot between T3 or you. I don't think it makes airtight sense as T3's kill, but more sense than it does from scum me in this situation.

[frogsfrogs]

Reading back some of my own ISO, if I'm scum with Not Known I absolutely don't think I would have argued for ffery being town / not partners with NK as hard as I did. "But Not Known claimed to save her!" is too easy to fall back on. I was only barely the hammer on her D3 when she decided she wouldn't do it herself & I decided I was fine with ffery -> T3 as the path.

[frogsfrogs]

Agreed! Yeah. You're the one deciding now because you've got the hardest decision lol.

[frogsfrogs]

they have a lot of slick realtime interaction with you that is characteristic of scum pocketing

You have a lot of not posting that is characteristic of scum lurking ..

[frogsfrogs]

Uaghh, yeah I just don't have any real analysis or anything left in me, after skimming some pages again, to case for why it is so T3 here. I think his end of D3 into today was

so

scummy though. I was pretty high on his readslist but I make one offhanded agreement with ffery and he votes me. Today he comes in and starts by briefly shading Dwlee, but obviously I've said that I'm suspecting him, so his pick is me and he's the first to vote, "based on [my] actions today and yesterday"

[frogsfrogs]

if we're going by play alone, then
frogs
ffery
dwlee
counting interactions, then uh
i have no idea :dry:

dwlee has been fairly towny today.

thinking about it, scum you can probably fake this :/

VOTE: frogs

idk man. Maybe I'm ignorant but this just feels so forced.

[frogsfrogs]

the series of posts where he voted me D3, again, just so I'm not omitting the context actually:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... height=896

[frogsfrogs]

wait lol fuck me. 1329

[frogsfrogs]

Oh man, gg everyone !! This was a really cool game despite the ups and downs

[frogsfrogs]

Thank you to everybody in the dead thread, that was a fun read ^ ^ glad we managed to pull this game out for town

[frogsfrogs]

Your scum commentary is super insightful, Prism! I'm really enjoying and I think benefit from seeing these deeper motivations and points of strategy explained hehe. No clue how different the game would have been had you the opportunity to stick around.

pedit: Ooh! Thank you, too, ffery. I really enjoyed playing alongside you in this one! I think you're totally right about your late D3 play having been important lol. I had in fact been pretty demotivated with the length and churn of the game, leading to that drooping activity you note