Newbie 2095 | Game over

[Roden]

Let's start this off.

VOTE: Whiskey

[Roden]

How long has everyone been playing? Outta curiosity

I used to play a lot but it’s probably been about ~3 years since I did last. My home website went the way of the dodo sadly

A little over a year, but the last time I played in the newbie queue was back in September.

[Roden]

How long has everyone been playing? Outta curiosity

I used to play a lot but it’s probably been about ~3 years since I did last. My home website went the way of the dodo sadly

A little over a year, but the last time I played in the newbie queue was back in September.

Did I see you fakeclaim Tracker in a game?

I did actually, in Newbie 2070.

[Roden]

A little over a year, but the last time I played in the newbie queue was back in September.

Is the newbie queue that different from the rest of the forum?

It's a bit more serious and formal over here, for the most part, but a little less stressful imo.

[Roden]

How long has everyone been playing? Outta curiosity

I used to play a lot but it’s probably been about ~3 years since I did last. My home website went the way of the dodo sadly

A little over a year, but the last time I played in the newbie queue was back in September.

Did I see you fakeclaim Tracker in a game?

I did actually, in Newbie 2070.

Postgame got a bit heated in that one, LOL.

A bit yeah haha, it was a rough spot for town.

[Roden]

I guess since this is Day 1, all the current votes are senseless.

My notes:

Alianna
- was informed that furtiveglance is Town?? (Mason or Friendly Neighbor?)
- asks who wants to be nightkilled (sus)

Well this is just a disgusting post to start off the game.

Disgusting? Sure. But is it scummy? Ehhh...I think newbscum tries harder to look townie. Pretty sure it was just meant to be a joke post since it was during RVS.

Then again, they disappeared afterward. I understand that not much is going on right now, but it's been almost three days since their last post. Let's get some pressure going, maybe?

VOTE: Hutmeil

[Roden]

hutmeil seems Elim Bait ish to me but I am bothered by how they assumed Alianna meant a Town role in her post 11. Can you talk about that

@hutmeil

?

Dislike Roden hedging on that wagon more though

VOTE: Roden

Hedging how? I voted there.

[Roden]

Hutmeil, what's your experience with Mafia?

[Roden]

I saw that, I mean what was their actual experience playing the game.

[Roden]

I saw that, I mean what was their actual experience playing the game.

Hmmm not sure exactly what you're asking but I played via email as I've said and that was like more than a decade ago. I guess I have 10-15 games under my belt.

Not quite the answer that I was expecting, but it's interesting to know nonetheless.

I guess since this is Day 1, all the current votes are senseless.

My notes:

Alianna
- was informed that furtiveglance is Town?? (Mason or Friendly Neighbor?)
- asks who wants to be nightkilled (sus)

Originally, I thought this was just a joke, but then you made this post:

hutmeil seems Elim Bait ish to me but I am bothered by how they assumed Alianna meant a Town role in her post 11. Can you talk about that

@hutmeil

?

Dislike Roden hedging on that wagon more though

VOTE: Roden

Well, according to Alianna, she was "informed" that furtiveglance is Town. That could mean several things:
- Alianna is a Mason, so it was the mod that "informed" her
- Alianna is FN, which is not likely since we started with Day 1 and not Night 1. She can only be informed after Night 1 (if I'm right).

Based on above, she's likely Mason (assuming she's Town). So that means, we're either setup Col A Row 3 or Col C Row 3.

Right now, I'm not inclined to vote either of them because if both of them are Town, then the other will die on Night 1. So that's 2 Towns in a row. I'd rather vote someone who like to bandwagon like:

UNVOTE: takotsubo syndrome

VOTE: Roden

If Roden, turns out scum, then I'd say takotsubo is scum too since they're the ones who started the bandwagon on me.

On another note, sorry about my late replies. I'm from GMT +8 so most probably not same timezone as you guys.

You double down on discussing PRs even though you've been told it's an anti-town thing to do. I could understand making this kind of mistake if you were just new, but you're claiming to have a pretty decent amount of experience under your belt. For comparison, it only takes five games to be considered SE (Semi-Experienced) on this site.

So considering your experience with the game, and your general tone that gives me the feeling that you know what you're doing, it makes me think that you openly discussing PRs is just feigned ignorance.

[Roden]

hutmeil, I think you're probably town, but this discussion is anti-town, so I'll clarify these and we'll leave it at that.

You do realize how anti-town this conversation is right now?

I just really hope you are scum thats fishing for reactions right now, but at least if you are town you will be learning a good experience for the future to never really point out stuff like this and drag it on because it helps scum aid in finding who the PR's are based on reactions.

I respectfully disagree. Town is at a disadvantage because of lack of information. One of the most logical ways to counter this is to bring information to the forefront. Sometimes this means role revealing if it has to come to that. But right now since it's still Day 1 we don't have to do so.

Has everyone sounded off already?

Role revealing is generally only a good idea if you're at E-1 with intent to hammer, there's a massclaim, or you have crucial information (like a cop guilty). Otherwise, it's anti-town to discuss roles.

hutmeil seems Elim Bait ish to me but I am bothered by how they assumed Alianna meant a Town role in her post 11. Can you talk about that

@hutmeil

?

Dislike Roden hedging on that wagon more though

VOTE: Roden

Well, according to Alianna, she was "informed" that furtiveglance is Town. That could mean several things:
- Alianna is a Mason, so it was the mod that "informed" her
- Alianna is FN, which is not likely since we started with Day 1 and not Night 1. She can only be informed after Night 1 (if I'm right).

Based on above, she's likely Mason (assuming she's Town). So that means, we're either setup Col A Row 3 or Col C Row 3.

Right now, I'm not inclined to vote either of them because if both of them are Town, then the other will die on Night 1. So that's 2 Towns in a row. I'd rather vote someone who like to bandwagon like:

UNVOTE: takotsubo syndrome

VOTE: Roden

If Roden, turns out scum, then I'd say takotsubo is scum too since they're the ones who started the bandwagon on me.

On another note, sorry about my late replies. I'm from GMT +8 so most probably not same timezone as you guys.

Neither Mason nor FN work in this way. Alianna was joking that she is mafia. I like your notes though

Please enlighten me on how these roles work.

Masons - are confirmed as town to each other and share a PT.
FN - targets one player each night, the targeted player is informed that the FN is town.

If it still isn't clear, you can read the sample role PMs in 2.
And now I would like to cease the role discussion.

Interesting.

Thanks for the role infos, that's exactly how I understood them.

My vote stays.

Additionally, this implies that you're only voting me because I voted you, and that you did so because I had more momentum on my wagon than the other person who suspects you, which makes it an opportunistic vote.

[Roden]

I think it's safe to assume that giving scum info about town PRs was considered anti-town play even a decade ago.

[Roden]

I think it's safe to assume that giving scum info about town PRs was considered anti-town play even a decade ago.

Is this the part where you double down on your pressure vote and turn it into a scum case?

I’d be curious to your thoughts on the reasons hutmeil is being TR by others and where you stand on that

I'll have further things to say on Hutmeil when they respond and offer more content.

Hutmeil is getting town read because no one really wants to rock the boat in newbie games. It's easier to defend someone than attack them, it typically gets you town read and lessens attention on yourself compared to those who go on the offensive. People are going to criticize Hut's play but hesitate to vote there, since they're giving off the appearance of a clueless townie.

Regardless of Hutmeil's alignment, scum won't be pushing there and will almost certainly white knight the slot. If Hut is scum, their play is just there to obfuscate the game state and make it a slog to solve people. If they're town, they will get white knight'd extra hard, and scum will let them lead the charge on OMGUS counter wagons so that Hut will take the heat every time town gets flipped.

[Roden]

I say this having done that as scum. It's a consistently solid strategy to just play passively and town read volatile townies while town cannablizes itself for you.

[Roden]

I also am going out on a limb and stating that I have never seen roden go out guns blazing like he is right now.

I have really soft townreads and not a lot of scum reads, but I wish my soft townreads I was more confident in bc I’m not

Hmmm...

No offense Tidus. I’m ok with some pressure votes on you. I forgot your slot even exsisted until FG brought your name up.

Yeah, I’m the alt. I was trying out a new account for an experiment.
That lasted not that long…

Ah, that explains it lol.

[Roden]

I think it's safe to assume that giving scum info about town PRs was considered anti-town play even a decade ago.

Is this the part where you double down on your pressure vote and turn it into a scum case?

I’d be curious to your thoughts on the reasons hutmeil is being TR by others and where you stand on that

I'll have further things to say on Hutmeil when they respond and offer more content.

Hutmeil is getting town read because no one really wants to rock the boat in newbie games. It's easier to defend someone than attack them, it typically gets you town read and lessens attention on yourself compared to those who go on the offensive. People are going to criticize Hut's play but hesitate to vote there, since they're giving off the appearance of a clueless townie.

Regardless of Hutmeil's alignment, scum won't be pushing there and will almost certainly white knight the slot. If Hut is scum, their play is just there to obfuscate the game state and make it a slog to solve people. If they're town, they will get white knight'd extra hard, and scum will let them lead the charge on OMGUS counter wagons so that Hut will take the heat every time town gets flipped.

This is an interesting point. My initial response is that you earlier scumread Hutmeil and backed it up, but now seem to be acknowledging that they're townread. Do you now think they're town, or am I wrongly inferring that?

You say regardless of Hutmeil's alignment, but scum can only 'white knight' a town player, surely?

I don't think that they're town, I just understand why they're getting town read. No matter Hutmeil's actual alignment, I think the reason they're getting town read is a poor reason, since it comes from self-preservation rather than any attempts to actually analyze the player.

Also, scum can white knight each other, because unless the town knows who the exact scum team is, no one can tell the difference between white knighting and defending a partner.

[Roden]

79 is just mech talk and speculation, why does Alianna get a townread?

This is unfair. Townread ME even though I don't deserve it. D:<

hutmeil, I think you're probably town, but this discussion is anti-town, so I'll clarify these and we'll leave it at that.

You do realize how anti-town this conversation is right now?

I just really hope you are scum thats fishing for reactions right now, but at least if you are town you will be learning a good experience for the future to never really point out stuff like this and drag it on because it helps scum aid in finding who the PR's are based on reactions.

I respectfully disagree. Town is at a disadvantage because of lack of information. One of the most logical ways to counter this is to bring information to the forefront. Sometimes this means role revealing if it has to come to that. But right now since it's still Day 1 we don't have to do so.

Has everyone sounded off already?

Role revealing is generally only a good idea if you're at E-1 with intent to hammer, there's a massclaim, or you have crucial information (like a cop guilty). Otherwise, it's anti-town to discuss roles.

hutmeil seems Elim Bait ish to me but I am bothered by how they assumed Alianna meant a Town role in her post 11. Can you talk about that

@hutmeil

?

Dislike Roden hedging on that wagon more though

VOTE: Roden

Well, according to Alianna, she was "informed" that furtiveglance is Town. That could mean several things:
- Alianna is a Mason, so it was the mod that "informed" her
- Alianna is FN, which is not likely since we started with Day 1 and not Night 1. She can only be informed after Night 1 (if I'm right).

Based on above, she's likely Mason (assuming she's Town). So that means, we're either setup Col A Row 3 or Col C Row 3.

Right now, I'm not inclined to vote either of them because if both of them are Town, then the other will die on Night 1. So that's 2 Towns in a row. I'd rather vote someone who like to bandwagon like:

UNVOTE: takotsubo syndrome

VOTE: Roden

If Roden, turns out scum, then I'd say takotsubo is scum too since they're the ones who started the bandwagon on me.

On another note, sorry about my late replies. I'm from GMT +8 so most probably not same timezone as you guys.

Neither Mason nor FN work in this way. Alianna was joking that she is mafia. I like your notes though

Please enlighten me on how these roles work.

Masons - are confirmed as town to each other and share a PT.
FN - targets one player each night, the targeted player is informed that the FN is town.

If it still isn't clear, you can read the sample role PMs in 2.
And now I would like to cease the role discussion.

Interesting.

Thanks for the role infos, that's exactly how I understood them.

My vote stays.

Additionally, this implies that you're only voting me because I voted you, and that you did so because I had more momentum on my wagon than the other person who suspects you, which makes it an opportunistic vote.

@Roden what made you feel your wagon had more momentum?

Because I had a vote and Syndrome didn't.

[Roden]

I also am going out on a limb and stating that I have never seen roden go out guns blazing like he is right now.

That is true to be fair.

The

hutmeil

scumread sounds like it's in bad faith too. I questioned him and this went down a townie route.

Roden

's vote is still parked there.

VOTE: Roden

This is E-2.

You agree that it isn't in my scum meta to go "guns blazing", yet you still voted me?

What makes the Hutmeil scum read bad faith? Can you explain that?

[Roden]

Uh, what? Was that not supposed to be about my scum play vs town play? Did you think that I'm not aggressive as town?

We just played this game pretty recently, I definitely wasn't passive there.

[Roden]

Whiskey, how exactly does that make me scum? It sounds more like you just don't like the way I'm wording things than anything.

[Roden]

Friendly reminder that you're supposed to vote for mafia, not people who sound bad.

[Roden]

There isn't much else going on, Hutmeil answered the prod then disappeared again. There are several people defending them, but they aren't really doing anything to defend themself. If it gives you pause that I'm "going against the grain", then you should be questioning why Hutmeil simply isn't playing and is staying silent as you all attack me.

Also, how exactly am I discrediting the town reads on Hutmeil? What did I say that was incorrect?

[Roden]

If hutmeil is Town then you appear to be scum fabricating a case against them.

?

Why is this the only possible outcome?

[Roden]

I have early townreads on Alianna, Greeting, hutmeil, whiskey delta, 72offsuit. Is that too many townreads?

Can u elaborate on these reads, even if it's just one line each?

It's probably time for me to do the old 'readslist'.

Greeting

: My biggest townread (congrats!). Something about the tone, it's wary, and guarded, but it in a towny way. As if they're constantly on the lookout for mafia.

Malakittens

: Seems town to me, 177 is a good response with some interesting thoughts. Thanks for calling me a strong player, I'm gonna be very remorseful when you die!

hutmeil

: I kind of get newbtown vibes, as had been said by others. I'm enjoying the notes, long may they continue.

whiskey delta

: So far their reads are Alianna/72offsuit/Greeting town, and voting Roden. I understand why, and I think whiskey delta is town for now.

Alianna

: I don't think Alianna warrants a townread yet. I give townreads for analysis, not being bored by a slow game or talking mechanics.

72offsuit

: Hasn't said much, in the null range for me. I'm aware others townread them.

Tidus of the X

: Hasn't said that much, seems pretty low-key. I'd love to hear more thoughts, any posts that take his eye, or players he susses.

Roden

: Seems to be the consensus scumread early on, and I actually want to put the boot in even more (!). Roden is always banging on about what scum would do, what he's done as scum, his own scum 'meta' etc... what he said about hutmeil was suspicious in the extreme. It was just the constant 'regardless of hutmeil's alignment'.....I don't think speculation is as useful as direct opinion.

Any thoughts appreciated.

I only just recently said anything about meta...after someone else brought it up. This is a blatant misrep, but I'll give you time to correct yourself in case you were just mistaken.

[Roden]

hutmeil seems Elim Bait ish to me but I am bothered by how they assumed Alianna meant a Town role in her post 11. Can you talk about that

@hutmeil

?

Dislike Roden hedging on that wagon more though

VOTE: Roden

I don’t know when hutmeil plans on responding or if it matters, so I’m just going to say what I was going to say.
It could be sus that they assumed I was talking about a town role, but the two possibilities were that furtive and I were masons and that furtive is FN who somehow informed me pregame.
FN can only exist in column B and masons can only exist in A and C, so this might be an indication that they don’t know what column we’re in (therefore town).
Sure, they could have fabricated that, but I think if they were approaching it strategically they’d realize I could be claiming scum.

Do you mean this post?

[Roden]

I have early townreads on Alianna, Greeting, hutmeil, whiskey delta, 72offsuit. Is that too many townreads?

Can u elaborate on these reads, even if it's just one line each?

It's probably time for me to do the old 'readslist'.

Greeting

: My biggest townread (congrats!). Something about the tone, it's wary, and guarded, but it in a towny way. As if they're constantly on the lookout for mafia.

Malakittens

: Seems town to me, 177 is a good response with some interesting thoughts. Thanks for calling me a strong player, I'm gonna be very remorseful when you die!

hutmeil

: I kind of get newbtown vibes, as had been said by others. I'm enjoying the notes, long may they continue.

whiskey delta

: So far their reads are Alianna/72offsuit/Greeting town, and voting Roden. I understand why, and I think whiskey delta is town for now.

Alianna

: I don't think Alianna warrants a townread yet. I give townreads for analysis, not being bored by a slow game or talking mechanics.

72offsuit

: Hasn't said much, in the null range for me. I'm aware others townread them.

Tidus of the X

: Hasn't said that much, seems pretty low-key. I'd love to hear more thoughts, any posts that take his eye, or players he susses.

Roden

: Seems to be the consensus scumread early on, and I actually want to put the boot in even more (!). Roden is always banging on about what scum would do, what he's done as scum, his own scum 'meta' etc... what he said about hutmeil was suspicious in the extreme. It was just the constant 'regardless of hutmeil's alignment'.....I don't think speculation is as useful as direct opinion.

Any thoughts appreciated.

I only just recently said anything about meta...after someone else brought it up. This is a blatant misrep, but I'll give you time to correct yourself in case you were just mistaken.

Disgusting? Sure. But is it scummy? Ehhh...I think newbscum tries harder to look townie.

Regardless of Hutmeil's alignment, scum won't be pushing there and will almost certainly white knight the slot. If Hut is scum, their play is just there to obfuscate the game state and make it a slog to solve people. If they're town, they will get white knight'd extra hard, and scum will let them lead the charge on OMGUS counter wagons so that Hut will take the heat every time town gets flipped.

I say this having done that as scum. It's a consistently solid strategy to just play passively and town read volatile townies while town cannablizes itself for you.

Also, scum can white knight each other, because unless the town knows who the exact scum team is, no one can tell the difference between white knighting and defending a partner.

You agree that it isn't in my scum meta to go "guns blazing", yet you still voted me?

This is what I'm talking about Roden.

You're bringing up recent posts, like I said.

What is post 55 supposed to be?

[Roden]

Furtive is likely scum, if Hutmeil is town then they're white knighting them. They never really gave a reason for why they town read them, at most just saying they like Hut's notes (which are notably anti-town). Early posts also pinged me since it felt like they were trying too hard to be pleasant and approachable. I also just think it's strange in general that they implied they know me and how I play, but then tried to chastise me for talking about my playstyle and general scum strategies. Additionally also just bad form to shut down discussion about how scum will try to play the game, especially in a newbie game where it's probably the most pertinent to discuss.

VOTE: furtiveglance

[Roden]

I have early townleans on whiskey delta and hutmeil. I don't think anyone else has earned one yet.

These are pocket attempts. No explanations for the town reads.

I have early townreads on Alianna, Greeting, hutmeil, whiskey delta, 72offsuit. Is that too many townreads?

This is even worse, and is legitimately a scum tell. Scum like to town read multiple slots early on since it makes people not want to vote them. Another bonus is that you can just change your mind later on with the excuse that your reads would naturally develop as the game progressed.

Some players love dismissing others as limbait town and really labouring the point as scum. I'm not accusing Alianna of doing this, it's just something I've seen before.

This heavily contradicts their current viewpoint and their argument against me.

[Roden]

I have early townreads on Alianna, Greeting, hutmeil, whiskey delta, 72offsuit. Is that too many townreads?

Can u elaborate on these reads, even if it's just one line each?

It's probably time for me to do the old 'readslist'.

Greeting

: My biggest townread (congrats!). Something about the tone, it's wary, and guarded, but it in a towny way. As if they're constantly on the lookout for mafia.

Malakittens

: Seems town to me, 177 is a good response with some interesting thoughts. Thanks for calling me a strong player, I'm gonna be very remorseful when you die!

hutmeil

: I kind of get newbtown vibes, as had been said by others. I'm enjoying the notes, long may they continue.

whiskey delta

: So far their reads are Alianna/72offsuit/Greeting town, and voting Roden. I understand why, and I think whiskey delta is town for now.

Alianna

: I don't think Alianna warrants a townread yet. I give townreads for analysis, not being bored by a slow game or talking mechanics.

72offsuit

: Hasn't said much, in the null range for me. I'm aware others townread them.

Tidus of the X

: Hasn't said that much, seems pretty low-key. I'd love to hear more thoughts, any posts that take his eye, or players he susses.

Roden

: Seems to be the consensus scumread early on, and I actually want to put the boot in even more (!). Roden is always banging on about what scum would do, what he's done as scum, his own scum 'meta' etc... what he said about hutmeil was suspicious in the extreme. It was just the constant 'regardless of hutmeil's alignment'.....I don't think speculation is as useful as direct opinion.

Any thoughts appreciated.

I only just recently said anything about meta...after someone else brought it up. This is a blatant misrep, but I'll give you time to correct yourself in case you were just mistaken.

Disgusting? Sure. But is it scummy? Ehhh...I think newbscum tries harder to look townie.

Regardless of Hutmeil's alignment, scum won't be pushing there and will almost certainly white knight the slot. If Hut is scum, their play is just there to obfuscate the game state and make it a slog to solve people. If they're town, they will get white knight'd extra hard, and scum will let them lead the charge on OMGUS counter wagons so that Hut will take the heat every time town gets flipped.

I say this having done that as scum. It's a consistently solid strategy to just play passively and town read volatile townies while town cannablizes itself for you.

Also, scum can white knight each other, because unless the town knows who the exact scum team is, no one can tell the difference between white knighting and defending a partner.

You agree that it isn't in my scum meta to go "guns blazing", yet you still voted me?

This is what I'm talking about Roden.

You're bringing up recent posts, like I said.

What is post 55 supposed to be?

It's all you looking at the game from mafia's POV, what scum would do etc.

Yes, and? Are you claiming that scum will publicly tell everyone that they're scum and what their current POV of the game is?

[Roden]

Furtive is likely scum, if Hutmeil is town then they're white knighting them. They never really gave a reason for why they town read them, at most just saying they like Hut's notes (which are notably anti-town). Early posts also pinged me since it felt like they were trying too hard to be pleasant and approachable. I also just think it's strange in general that they implied they know me and how I play, but then tried to chastise me for talking about my playstyle and general scum strategies. Additionally also just bad form to shut down discussion about how scum will try to play the game, especially in a newbie game where it's probably the most pertinent to discuss.

VOTE: furtiveglance

This seems sudden to say the least.

No luck pushing hutmeil?

Less shade, more content, please.

[Roden]

Ok, but do you still scumread hutmeil? Why unvote them?

More of a scum lean. They're not doing anything and they're avoiding the game, so I'd rather look elsewhere for now. I can always come back to Hut if their responses are scummy.

Why are you so interested in Hutmeil? Do you have anything to say about my previous posts directed towards you?

[Roden]

Yes, I 'townread too many people' earlier. Sorry if my generosity offended you. I refined my thoughts in my readslist.

If I had to divide people into townread/not townread right now, I'd say Greeting, Malakittens, hutmeil and whiskey delta are all my townreads. Is 4 fine, or is that over the limit?

There's no need to be passive aggressive.

What happened that knocked Alianna and 72 out of your town reads? What raised Mala into being a top town read after you had her in your PoE earlier?

[Roden]

Some players love dismissing others as limbait town and really labouring the point as scum. I'm not accusing Alianna of doing this, it's just something I've seen before.

This heavily contradicts their current viewpoint and their argument against me.

What changed your stance here?

[Roden]

Yes, I 'townread too many people' earlier. Sorry if my generosity offended you. I refined my thoughts in my readslist.

If I had to divide people into townread/not townread right now, I'd say Greeting, Malakittens, hutmeil and whiskey delta are all my townreads. Is 4 fine, or is that over the limit?

There's no need to be passive aggressive.

What happened that knocked Alianna and 72 out of your town reads? What raised Mala into being a top town read after you had her in your PoE earlier?

I realised I only townread Alianna and 72offsuit for not being scummy, when I now have them in null for not being towny. The onus should be on someone to earn my townread, not start with a townread until you lose it.

I hadn't looked at Malakittens before, so I didn't mention them. But when I did look at their ISO, it's towny.

If true, you were very self conscious of the fact you town read them. And when asked to explain your reads, you couldn't, and instead dropped them from your town reads altogether, also without explanation.

You didn't look at Mala? You know they're Syndrome, right?

I guess since this is Day 1, all the current votes are senseless.

My notes:

Alianna
- was informed that furtiveglance is Town?? (Mason or Friendly Neighbor?)
- asks who wants to be nightkilled (sus)

Well this is just a disgusting post to start off the game.

I don't like this....

[Roden]

Some players love dismissing others as limbait town and really labouring the point as scum. I'm not accusing Alianna of doing this, it's just something I've seen before.

This heavily contradicts their current viewpoint and their argument against me.

What changed your stance here?

My stance was always that hutmeil is town, regardless of how people are treating them. My problem with what you said was that you implied hutmeil was being white knighted (or could be white knighted in future) by mafia, but voted hutmeil nonetheless. And you seem right now to be operating in Schrodinger's box by saying that hutmeil is scummy, and also town being white knighted by mafia. Which is it?

First off, interesting take considering you said this earlier:

These notes from hutmeil are very entertaining.

I'm gonna start beef with 72offsuit so you other people have something to talk about.

You like to rhyme, and commit crime (?).

VOTE: 72offsuit

Is this like a late stage RVS vote? Cause your phrasing doesn’t make it seem like you think 72 is scum. Offhand but it is funny they voted you for not RVS voting originally

I don't really think they're scum or not think they're scum. Just doing something for the sake of it.

Second, somebody can be scummy, but still ultimately town. That's how they get white knighted. I don't know Hutmeil's alignment, so I'm not going to have a definitive answer. Voting Hutmeil was always going to generate content though. If they're scum, then cool. If not, then it draws out scum who want to white knight the slot.

[Roden]

vote count 1.08

Many duck fans believe that most ducks dive, but that isn't the case! Rather than diving, most ducks (like the pictured) just dabble! That's because their food sources are generally pretty close to the surface.

---

Roden (3): whiskey delta, hutmeil, Greeting
furtiveglance (2): 72offsuit, Roden
hutmeil (1): Tidus of the X

Not Voting (3): Malakittens, Alianna, furtiveglance

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to reach an elimination.

Day one will end in (expired on 2022-06-04 10:00:00)

---

Mod notes:

• quack.

Wait, you haven't voted me, Furtive? Aren't I your top scum read?

[Roden]

At first I was apprehensive of both you and Malakittens for scumreading/shading hutmeil, but then they expressed some concern over your alignment and I read it as town/mafia.

Why town/mafia? Why not town/town or mafia/mafia?

As for my vote, I think E-1 would be a bit hasty. If you currently had 2 votes, I'd vote you.

What are you waiting for? There's only three days left until the Day ends and you hard scum read me.

[Roden]

I'm a Cop.

Now kill Furtive.

[Roden]

I planned to check Greeting tonight btw. Way too many people town read that slot.

[Roden]

I don't know if it's a good idea to kill a claimed power

Generally speaking it’s not without a counter claim or compelling evidence to suggest the claimed person is lying. You have to look at the entirety of their play and see if things make sense. Does Roden - as Cop - play against his own ideas of self preservation by playing highly aggressive D1? Does it make sense that they would want to view Greeting based on the game state?

You’ve now commented on both lead wagons as if they could be Town. Do you have an alternative person you’d like to see eliminated?

Hi.

PRs get caught early by making it obvious they don't want attention when they usually play the game in every other game.

It might be a good idea to not blindly scum read anyone who tries to have independent thought.

Thank you.

[Roden]

Hopefully Roden comes back soon and addresses the questions myself and others have. I don’t feel good by how they dropped the claim and left

Yeah I don't really care tbh, I'm mentally checked out at this point. It's been pretty clear that I'm town simply for the fact I'm actually scum hunting and not playing with self preservation in mind. Consider it a lesson about how people play the game I guess.

Btw why are we considering anyone other than Furtive if he was one of your top scum reads? Or were you just distancing from your partner?

[Roden]

PRs get caught early by making it obvious they don't want attention when they usually play the game in every other game.

It might be a good idea to not blindly scum read anyone who tries to have independent thought.

Thank you.

Yeah I don't really care tbh, I'm mentally checked out at this point.

It's been pretty clear that I'm town simply for the fact I'm actually scum hunting and not playing with self preservation in mind.

Consider it a lesson about how people play the game I guess.

Btw why are we considering anyone other than Furtive if he was one of your top scum reads? Or were you just distancing from your partner?

I'll be honest - you're not really in a position to sit here and condescend after getting E-1'd on D1 as the Cop. For the better part of a week you parked your vote on a player and ignored/handwaved/mischaracterized analysis around them that said you were most likely wrong with your approach. You

still

have yet to answer questions that have been asked irt your case/read on hutmeil. I typed out a paragraph with post numbers included pointing out exactly why I was bothered by you and your response was "you just don't like how I say things" lol like what, dude? I'll take my share of the blame if we really did out the Cop on D1 but let's not pretend it was unwarranted. You'd be hammered by now if not for your claim, so there's that. What made you think playing so far outside of your typical range (according to others) AS THE COP was a good idea? Only now when I squint really hard does it make sense that you were so quick to jump on the PR discussion and sus Greeting for agreeing that your play was off.

Likewise, you say the bold & underlined about your own play but apparently cannot see that I have a similar "bull in China shop" approach. I haven't played in years and knocking the rust off will take time. You all are new to me and I have no idea how the site meta goes, but I'll learn and get better as we go. If you really are Town, then I suggest you step back and clear your head, do whatever you need to do, and look at everything with fresh eyes.

It's not really my problem if you can't read people. Instead of putting it off on me that my play got me E-1'd, maybe look at how the game state and your own play encouraged the player list to scum read anyone who speaks up and actively tries to play, then complaining that people aren't making posts and aren't playing. You actively discouraged people from posting and scum hunting, and if Furtive flips town then you also played a major part in setting up the town PR and a fellow townie into being forced into a 1v1/chain mis-elim.

So if I'll be honest, either your reads are bad or you're scum. Which is it?

[Roden]

Your play absolutely has not been "bull in a china shop" by any measure btw. You pressured Furtive, dipped out, then blamed me for your own bad reads.

[Roden]

Spoiler:

hutmeil seems Elim Bait ish to me but I am bothered by how they assumed Alianna meant a Town role in her post 11. Can you talk about that

@hutmeil

?

Dislike Roden hedging on that wagon more though

VOTE: Roden

Hedging how? I voted there.

For pressure. After stating you don’t think hutmeil would react that way as newbscum

Fwiw I had it in my head that your vote was E-2 but now I see that tako syndrome didn’t vote

Because in the greater context of the game Town clearing a possible MisElim early on as scum doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Could be faked, of course, yadda yadda but the post shows some depth I’m not sure scum go to just to TR someone they didn’t have to. lolme if wrong but I kinda like that read for where we are currently.

I think it's safe to assume that giving scum info about town PRs was considered anti-town play even a decade ago.

Is this the part where you double down on your pressure vote and turn it into a scum case?

I’d be curious to your thoughts on the reasons hutmeil is being TR by others and where you stand on that

It really has nothing to do with your phrasing and everything to do with the arguments you are making to SR hutmeil. If hutmeil is Town then you appear to be scum fabricating a case against them. Your reasons justifying your vote while discrediting the TRs on hutmeil don’t make sense to me. The fact it’s so against the grain does give me some measure of pause, however.

If I am just mixed up because my comprehension sucks that is something I can accept but if that is the case, maybe help me out and present your case against hutmeil again in a few sentences that detail everything? And any other things that have stood out to you so far

My two SRs suddenly turning on each other is an interesting twist that I'm gonna have to sleep on

I don't really get why I was a scumread initially, but that aside, this comment looks like you thought you had solved the game with me/Roden. Which is a terrible solve.

VOTE: Roden

LMAO perhaps so… I would be lying if I said I hadn’t entertained the idea already, but then again I figured your vote could end up here going back to 165 so I suppose it’s not all that surprising after all. I have been wondering when or if it would ever come which is also part of why I forced the issue.

What I really mean is you and Roden cross voting and being tied at E-2 is good info for now and later on. I don’t expect to be 2/2 but I also don’t think I’m 0/2. It’s a toss up until I’ve had more time process and see others weigh in.

“switching from Roden to me makes it look like you don’t care which of us goes”

I would say pushing both of my D1 SRs is exactly what I should be doing here. Not having a definitive answer because it’s page 10 of D1 doesn’t mean I don’t care. More wagons equal more info and if swapping between two players I can see either being scum generates more then that is a good thing.

Let me clarify further so you at least have a better idea of where I am regarding you both. Independently I find you both scummy for reasons I have laid out. Whatever team tells I was seeing could admittedly just be conf bias as I tend to get ahead of myself sometimes and can be pretty confident in my reads once I get going

It is not lost upon me that after I mentioned a willingness to swap to you if necessary that Roden - as lead wagon - pivoted to you shortly after when it was apparent the hutmeil push was getting a lot of static and with no prior mention. I think this looks ~bad but maybe it’s genuine and they are spreading focus elsewhere like they stated. Between the two of you, I think Roden has an upper hand at the moment because of the points they are bringing up. Several of your reads have flopped without much to point to as the reason and other moves seem to lack conviction imo, sort of like you are doing them just for the sake of it. Even now, it feels more like you’re voting Roden because you were called out for it rather than because you actually think they could be a wolf.

Last post until this evening unless someone responds to me directly. I’d like others to start weighing in since I feel you, me, and Roden have been the loudest over the last several pages.

[Roden]

Alianna it might be helpful to do literally anything other than snipe at a specific thing a conftown has said to try to discredit them.

[Roden]

Ok, let me start by asking how you think scum plays. Are they going to come out and say things that stick out and sound shady? Or are they going to be reserved and try to sound helpful/solvey?

[Roden]

Ok, let me start by asking how you think scum plays. Are they going to come out and say things that stick out and sound shady? Or are they going to be reserved and try to sound helpful/solvey?

It's not that simple.
One would expect they'd do the latter, but they could also go for the WIFOM and hope people think it's too scummy to be scum.
A scum player might also lack self-awareness about how shady they're being (I don't think that applies to you, but you asked about scum in general).
Either way, you're basically conftown, so it's not like I still think otherwise.

Too scummy to be scummy (TSTBS) doesn't quite work in a newbie game, people are willing to jump on scummy behavior and generally follow the mindset of "anyone but me". Newbscum players especially don't want to look scummy and will overcompensate to look town, and may be coached by their partner in order to look more townie. They tend to complain when activity is low, try to get low posters to post, and defer to other more aggressive town players in order to stay in their good graces. SE players know this because they've seen it happen many times, and understand that it's just part of the meta for the format. In a more standard game, this doesn't apply quite as much, but the point is that this isn't a standard game.

Besides that, if you truly believe scum will try to go for TSTBS, then Hutmeil would not have been white knighted nearly as hard as they were this game, and the people who actually tried to solve the slot would not have been attacked and scum read for it. WIFOM is certainly a thing that exists, but normally isn't used as someone's entire strategy because it simply isn't consistent, and can get you policy elim'd if it becomes known to be part of your playstyle/meta.

I don't think it's a good idea to operate off of generalizations about what scum do or don't do.

This is a newbie game, the point of playing here is to understand the meta for how town and scum play.

[Roden]

VOTE: 72offsuit

Btw why are we considering anyone other than Furtive if he was one of your top scum reads? Or were you just distancing from your partner?

You never answered this.

[Roden]

1) It's just the way I read the interaction

2) You're talking a lot which is better than some. If you vote Tidus or 72offsuit, I'll consider voting with you. If you stay on me I'll probably end up voting you.

It's a massive problem that 72offsuit and Tidus of the X aren't talking more. They've entered my scumpool by process of elimination.

Out of the more active seven of us, I can only really see Roden and Alianna being mafia.

Easy, it’s just a game after all. I am laughing at you calling my read terrible, to be specific. Like I said, it could be, but before this latest development it seemed you were reluctant to vote Roden despite them being in your POE so maybe it’s not so terrible or I’m just thrown off because you telegraphed this a while ago but only now have come around to it.

I have time to consider you both more. Putting you at E-2 and forcing you to call your own bluff and put my other SR at E-2 is beneficial to me and to the game state. I’d like to see others weigh in before I do anything else, like I already stated. No one has yet. For where we were 5-6 pages ago this is great stuff.

“switching from Roden to me makes it look like you don’t care which of us goes”

I would say pushing both of my D1 SRs is exactly what I should be doing here. Not having a definitive answer because it’s page 10 of D1 doesn’t mean I don’t care. More wagons equal more info and if swapping between two players I can see either being scum generates more then that is a good thing.

I feel like either 72offsuit/Malakittens counterclaims here, or we should vote 72offsuit.

I've played with them in all three of my games thus far, but we were both town in all of those games. I couldn't tell you what scum!furtive looks like, I just haven't noticed anything that strikes me as a deviation from their towngame.

Fair enough. If you had to describe Town!FG in a word or two, what would it be?

VOTE: 72offsuit

This is not a natural progression from either player.

[Roden]

Maybe I'm just a bad player who can't do anything right, but to me it looks like Furtive and Whiskey were hedging their bets on my elimination, and now that they can't have it they want to vote out a low poster slot that won't fight back and nobody wants to defend.

[Roden]

Early town leans on Greetings and 72

page 2 reads lol

Town

Alianna
Greeting
Malakittens
hutmeil

72
Tidus
FG
Roden

Scum

This is how I'm seeing things currently and admittedly a lot hedges on hutmeil being Town and Roden being scum.

I already mentioned 79 from

Alianna

that I liked a lot. It's a good evaluation coming from what it did and just generally not a read I would expect scum to make in that spot. They are being responsive in a way that gives me the impression they are paying attention and prodding others for info. Feels Townie and probability also says they probably just are.

I liked

Greeting

early on for 41. Easy post to make for scum but still ~Townie in purpose. You can see how they are carrying the read they make on hutmeil while branching out in their responses. 182 more or less mirrors my sentiment irt Roden and I would consider this vote clearing if Roden ever flips scum.

Malakittens

is almost pure tone reading. I wasn't the biggest fan of their entrance once they replaced in but their handling of hutmeil has been more dynamic than others and I generally like their response to FG in 177. Again, simple probability means this slot is most likely Town so without any flips to readjust accordingly I feel semi-good.

hutmeil

is admittedly my leap of faith read in this situation. I am more convinced by what others have said than anything hutmeil has done in particular, but again if Roden turns up red then I would take them off the table as well.

72

got an early TL for 20 & 47 because they seem geared to generate reactions. Didn't give much when asked for content but seems to be digging in now and asking pointed questions. Holding pattern until I see more but still >rand Town.

Tidus

hasn't said much which looks ~bad but at the same time I feel like scum would try harder to look productive. 148 isn't much but might be a >Townie reaction.

Furtive

elim would be something I could compromise on. I would describe their play as present enough to avoid suspicion without really making an impact either. 63 & 69 feel a bit contrived. They are asking questions and making comments along the way which aren't overtly troublesome but gut says are off. 120 & 122 make me curious about their reasons for having Alianna as a TR in 165 which sort of reads like cheeky TMI. FG as Town along with those 5 listed means their POE would be down to Tidus, Malalt, and Roden which makes the sequence between 137 & 150 interesting in a world where Roden is scum. The mix up could be genuine but I'm more pointing out the fact that they should be considering Roden a suspect based on their own reads but seem to be voting around the wagon up to this point. Worth coming back to if there is ever a scum reveal between these two.

Roden

55 initially pinged because I didn't like how they were saying hutmeil was more likely Town but still voting them for "pressure". I feel their SR on hutmeil has developed unnaturally like they latched on early and have been backing their way into it. 123 & 124 is where I think this begins. Hutmeil doesn't say anything in 90 or 109 that implies they were voting Roden because they had more votes at the time so calling the vote opportunistic reads like false justification. 167 & 185 don't feel accurate to me irt hutmeil getting TRs. I'm not sure how he came to that conclusion but I disagree that hutmeil hasn't been analyzed or was done for self-preservation. Besides the SR on hutmeil I don't have an idea of where they are on anyone else, which in itself concerns me too. Others have said they don't recognize this play from Roden so I am willing to reconsider if needed but they are my strongest SR at this point and I would be fine eliminating if the deadline was today.

That peek doesn’t sit right with me. Why not someone like 72/Tidus/hutmeil rather than a ~consensus TR?

This is not the progression of a lot that scum reads 72. They clearly town read them, and instead scum read me and Furtive. So why not vote Furtive? Why the sudden shift onto 72, the player that one of their top scum reads wants gone?

[Roden]

I think it's safe to assume that giving scum info about town PRs was considered anti-town play even a decade ago.

Is this the part where you double down on your pressure vote and turn it into a scum case?

I’d be curious to your thoughts on the reasons hutmeil is being TR by others and where you stand on that

I'll have further things to say on Hutmeil when they respond and offer more content.

Hutmeil is getting town read because no one really wants to rock the boat in newbie games. It's easier to defend someone than attack them, it typically gets you town read and lessens attention on yourself compared to those who go on the offensive. People are going to criticize Hut's play but hesitate to vote there, since they're giving off the appearance of a clueless townie.

Regardless of Hutmeil's alignment, scum won't be pushing there and will almost certainly white knight the slot. If Hut is scum, their play is just there to obfuscate the game state and make it a slog to solve people. If they're town, they will get white knight'd extra hard, and scum will let them lead the charge on OMGUS counter wagons so that Hut will take the heat every time town gets flipped.

This is an interesting point. My initial response is that you earlier scumread Hutmeil and backed it up, but now seem to be acknowledging that they're townread. Do you now think they're town, or am I wrongly inferring that?

You say regardless of Hutmeil's alignment, but scum can only 'white knight' a town player, surely?

I don't think that they're town, I just understand why they're getting town read. No matter Hutmeil's actual alignment, I think the reason they're getting town read is a poor reason, since it comes from self-preservation rather than any attempts to actually analyze the player.

Also, scum can white knight each other, because unless the town knows who the exact scum team is, no one can tell the difference between white knighting and defending a partner.

Lunchtime post, only up to 185 sry peeps, will read further tonight, probs in about 6-8 hours

Already dealt with that. But you might want to catch up soon, you have two people pushing for your elim near EoD.

[Roden]

Right on time.

UNVOTE:

@Roden - stuff has happened. Things have changed. My reads are not the same and it seems I need to reevaluate completely. You can vote FG if you want. Vote me if you’d like. I don’t care I’m going to keep trucking and we will both just learn to get along

What did 72 do? What did Furtive do?

[Roden]

VOTE: 72offsuit

Btw why are we considering anyone other than Furtive if he was one of your top scum reads? Or were you just distancing from your partner?

You never answered this.

[Roden]

@Furtive:

What do you think of Whiskey wanting you dead and claiming that you're a top scum read, then changing his mind when I claimed Cop? What do you think of him wanting to vote 72 with you even though he thinks you're scum?

[Roden]

@Furtive:

What do you think of Whiskey wanting you dead and claiming that you're a top scum read, then changing his mind when I claimed Cop? What do you think of him wanting to vote 72 with you even though he thinks you're scum?

It's weird, and I never understood why I was a scumread in the first place; that is to say that I disagreed with his scumcase on me.

That's it? You have no other thoughts?

Whiskey made it clear we were his two top scum reads. If he can't vote me out, it just leaves you. Yet he wants 72. You don't see any red flags there?

[Roden]

I wish I had more to say, this is quite an important period in the game. I have a few points:

1) Roden, I can understand being forced to claim as Cop Day 1 is frustrating, and I too have scumread people for pushing me before (it's only natural and sometimes scum push town). However, your entire view of the game right now seems to be dominated by pushing the people who pushed you (me and whiskey delta). This isn't good for the game.

2) Regardless of reads at this point, the day 1 elimination should move us forward. If we can offload someone who isn't contributing as much, it makes for a healthier gamestate. I've never advocated for this kind of Darwinian thinking in a game before, but Tidus/72 just aren't providing as much as others.

1) I recall pushing and voting you before you did me. I've absolutely pushed others as well, but it got shut down. Please don't try to rewrite history here.

2) Pushing scum > pushing low posters. Your flip will reveal more about the game state then flipping Tidus/72, who people don't have much of an opinion on.

[Roden]

I said, it's weird. By weird I mean scummy.

Go on.

You seem to have much more to say about me, a conftown, instead of someone who isn't conftown and who you admit is scummy.

[Roden]

Actually, why are you worried about voting off a low poster now? I was posting plenty enough, but you preferred to vote me instead. You only seem to care about voting low posters when it suits your agenda.

[Roden]

I think I've been consistent - you were my only real scumread.

We all already know this is a lie.

I have early townreads on Alianna, Greeting, hutmeil, whiskey delta, 72offsuit. Is that too many townreads?

Can u elaborate on these reads, even if it's just one line each?

It's probably time for me to do the old 'readslist'.

Greeting

: My biggest townread (congrats!). Something about the tone, it's wary, and guarded, but it in a towny way. As if they're constantly on the lookout for mafia.

Malakittens

: Seems town to me, 177 is a good response with some interesting thoughts. Thanks for calling me a strong player, I'm gonna be very remorseful when you die!

hutmeil

: I kind of get newbtown vibes, as had been said by others. I'm enjoying the notes, long may they continue.

whiskey delta

: So far their reads are Alianna/72offsuit/Greeting town, and voting Roden. I understand why, and I think whiskey delta is town for now.

Alianna

: I don't think Alianna warrants a townread yet. I give townreads for analysis, not being bored by a slow game or talking mechanics.

72offsuit

: Hasn't said much, in the null range for me. I'm aware others townread them.

Tidus of the X

: Hasn't said that much, seems pretty low-key. I'd love to hear more thoughts, any posts that take his eye, or players he susses.

Roden

: Seems to be the consensus scumread early on, and I actually want to put the boot in even more (!). Roden is always banging on about what scum would do, what he's done as scum, his own scum 'meta' etc... what he said about hutmeil was suspicious in the extreme. It was just the constant 'regardless of hutmeil's alignment'.....I don't think speculation is as useful as direct opinion.

Any thoughts appreciated.

What do you think my flip will reveal?

Your alignment.

[Roden]

Furtive, if you're town then feel free to engage with your scum reads. 72 and Whiskey are both around.

[Roden]

Right on time.

UNVOTE:

@Roden - stuff has happened. Things have changed. My reads are not the same and it seems I need to reevaluate completely. You can vote FG if you want. Vote me if you’d like. I don’t care I’m going to keep trucking and we will both just learn to get along

What did 72 do? What did Furtive do?

Last post of the night

72 was a Hail Mary low poster elim vote - I’ll call it what it is. Timing aside the last two posts they made make me want to see what else they have to say. We are in this spot largely because of consensus so maybe more against the grain reads are warranted.

For FG I think part of it is that they aren’t scum reading me tbh but also because I was so wrong about you I am doubting my scum (and town) reads more generally.

Looking at the wagons at the time of your claim is what is really making me reconsider. My reads can suck but was everyone else just as bad? Counting myself that started your wagon there’s 5 to consider immediately.

Roden - (whiskey) hutmeil, Greeting, FG, Alianna
FG - 72, Roden, whiskey

FG still an option but one I’m way less confident about. I need to review everyone on the wagon again but 6/6 Town is not likely.

Why would being wrong about me make you doubt your other top scum read? Are you saying that if you had successfully voted me our Furtive out, and once of us flipped town, then you'd think the other was town?

And you're right, 6/6 town being wrong isn't likely. the odds of town being wrong are extremely low, in fact. That's because there weren't 6/6 townies voting me or suspecting me. There were only 4.

You just seem to be admitting here that you don't want to vote out your scum reads and prefer to just push out a low poster who isn't defending themself.

[Roden]

I wasn't lying - you were my only scumread. 72offsuit/Tidus are down the list due to poe, but they were basically null/scum.

So if they're null/scum, why do you not want to vote Whiskey, who you just admitted is scummy? Why vote out a low poster you don't actually scum read instead of player you do think is scummy?

[Roden]

For FG I think part of it is that they aren’t scum reading me tbh but also

because I was so wrong about you

I am doubting my scum (and town) reads more generally.

Looking at the wagons at the time of your claim is what is really making me reconsider.

Wait.

Is this TMI?

[Roden]

I think it's safe to assume that giving scum info about town PRs was considered anti-town play even a decade ago.

Is this the part where you double down on your pressure vote and turn it into a scum case?

I’d be curious to your thoughts on the reasons hutmeil is being TR by others and where you stand on that

I'll have further things to say on Hutmeil when they respond and offer more content.

Hutmeil is getting town read because no one really wants to rock the boat in newbie games. It's easier to defend someone than attack them, it typically gets you town read and lessens attention on yourself compared to those who go on the offensive. People are going to criticize Hut's play but hesitate to vote there, since they're giving off the appearance of a clueless townie.

Regardless of Hutmeil's alignment, scum won't be pushing there and will almost certainly white knight the slot. If Hut is scum, their play is just there to obfuscate the game state and make it a slog to solve people. If they're town, they will get white knight'd extra hard, and scum will let them lead the charge on OMGUS counter wagons so that Hut will take the heat every time town gets flipped.

This is an interesting point. My initial response is that you earlier scumread Hutmeil and backed it up, but now seem to be acknowledging that they're townread. Do you now think they're town, or am I wrongly inferring that?

You say regardless of Hutmeil's alignment, but scum can only 'white knight' a town player, surely?

I don't think that they're town, I just understand why they're getting town read. No matter Hutmeil's actual alignment, I think the reason they're getting town read is a poor reason, since it comes from self-preservation rather than any attempts to actually analyze the player.

Also, scum can white knight each other, because unless the town knows who the exact scum team is, no one can tell the difference between white knighting and defending a partner.

Lunchtime post, only up to 185 sry peeps, will read further tonight, probs in about 6-8 hours

I'm a Cop.

Now kill Furtive.

72 didn't see my Cop claim yet lmao

[Roden]

I wasn't lying - you were my only scumread. 72offsuit/Tidus are down the list due to poe, but they were basically null/scum.

So if they're null/scum, why do you not want to vote Whiskey, who you just admitted is scummy? Why vote out a low poster you don't actually scum read instead of player you do think is scummy?

Whiskey delta is a complex read for me. I'd like to keep them in for a bit.

This statement doesn't mean anything. It's not even an excuse.

It really looks like you two are just scum partners and don't know what to do. By all means, you only appear willing to vote out your scum reads unless it's each other. Otherwise, you prefer to just vote people who aren't talking that much and aren't here to defend themself.

[Roden]

Town needs to vote these two out. There is no legitimate reason for them to not want to vote each other out despite scum reading each other.

[Roden]

When their main wagon failed, they rushed to vote 72 and hoped people just followed suit. Yet they both openly admit that they don't think 72 is scum. There is no town reason to vote out a low poster over your scum reads.

[Roden]

I wasn't lying - you were my only scumread. 72offsuit/Tidus are down the list due to poe, but they were basically null/scum.

So if they're null/scum, why do you not want to vote Whiskey, who you just admitted is scummy? Why vote out a low poster you don't actually scum read instead of player you do think is scummy?

Whiskey delta is a complex read for me. I'd like to keep them in for a bit.

This statement doesn't mean anything. It's not even an excuse.

It really looks like you two are just scum partners and don't know what to do. By all means, you only appear willing to vote out your scum reads unless it's each other. Otherwise, you prefer to just vote people who aren't talking that much and aren't here to defend themself.

I'm sorry, I'm just keeping you updated with my thoughts. I'm becoming increasingly concerned that you're pushing me because I pushed you, and the same with whiskey delta. We're also not paired - or if we are it's one-way, they seemed quite keen to get me out earlier.

Furtive is likely scum, if Hutmeil is town then they're white knighting them. They never really gave a reason for why they town read them, at most just saying they like Hut's notes (which are notably anti-town). Early posts also pinged me since it felt like they were trying too hard to be pleasant and approachable. I also just think it's strange in general that they implied they know me and how I play, but then tried to chastise me for talking about my playstyle and general scum strategies. Additionally also just bad form to shut down discussion about how scum will try to play the game, especially in a newbie game where it's probably the most pertinent to discuss.

VOTE: furtiveglance

My two SRs suddenly turning on each other is an interesting twist that I'm gonna have to sleep on

I don't really get why I was a scumread initially, but that aside, this comment looks like you thought you had solved the game with me/Roden. Which is a terrible solve.

VOTE: Roden

You can stop spinning the fake narrative that I'm pushing you because you pushed me first, now.

[Roden]

And?

[Roden]

You could scum hunt.

[Roden]

Pretty sure I won't be around unless a Doctor exists. I'm actually pushing my scum reads right now, so I think I'm fine. If I somehow survive to tomorrow and one of you flips town, I can reassess then.

Also, back to back miscondemns? You said Whiskey was scummy. Do you town read him now?

[Roden]

In terms of scum hunting, meh. What's the point anymore? There's 1 or 2 Days left before we condemn someone (probably me because town will vote with the Cop), and once I die people will forget what my reads were.

So I need to scum hunt, even though I'm going to be night killed, but you don't need to, even though you expect to be voted out?

[Roden]

Surely the people who town read you early on would remember your reads?

[Roden]

Pretty sure I won't be around unless a Doctor exists. I'm actually pushing my scum reads right now, so I think I'm fine. If I somehow survive to tomorrow and one of you flips town, I can reassess then.

Also, back to back miscondemns? You said Whiskey was scummy. Do you town read him now?

I didn't say miscondemns. I explained my read on whiskey delta already.

Why would I need to generate new reads if we voted you out back to back then? Is Whiskey scum or not?

[Roden]

What I'm basically saying is, you're the Cop. Fine. I can't counter claim that, and town will inevitably vote with you. I can tell you're not going to change your mind, so I'm as good as gone already. There's nothing I can do.

Except I also scum read Whiskey? Even if what you're saying is 100& correct, we share a scum read on Whiskey. Why not push there? Why keep your vote on 72?

[Roden]

I wasn't lying - you were my only scumread. 72offsuit/Tidus are down the list due to poe, but they were basically null/scum.

So if they're null/scum, why do you not want to vote Whiskey, who you just admitted is scummy? Why vote out a low poster you don't actually scum read instead of player you do think is scummy?

Whiskey delta is a complex read for me. I'd like to keep them in for a bit.

Like are you essentially saying here that you would prefer to keep Whiskey in the game over yourself?

[Roden]

72’s reads are so anti consensus I think they’re worth considering. Like I said earlier, consensus nearly led to the Cop getting elimmed and if scum I think 72 just stays parked on FG here instead of starting an entirely new wagon.


I’m crazy enough to follow too

VOTE: Alianna

Time for fire drill

Aliana, what's your take on Whiskey's progression here?

[Roden]

Right on time.

UNVOTE:

@Roden - stuff has happened. Things have changed. My reads are not the same and it seems I need to reevaluate completely. You can vote FG if you want. Vote me if you’d like. I don’t care I’m going to keep trucking and we will both just learn to get along

What did 72 do? What did Furtive do?

Last post of the night

72 was a Hail Mary low poster elim vote - I’ll call it what it is. Timing aside the last two posts they made make me want to see what else they have to say. We are in this spot largely because of consensus so maybe more against the grain reads are warranted.

For FG I think part of it is that they aren’t scum reading me tbh but also because I was so wrong about you I am doubting my scum (and town) reads more generally.

Looking at the wagons at the time of your claim is what is really making me reconsider. My reads can suck but was everyone else just as bad? Counting myself that started your wagon there’s 5 to consider immediately.

Roden - (whiskey) hutmeil, Greeting, FG, Alianna
FG - 72, Roden, whiskey

FG still an option but one I’m way less confident about. I need to review everyone on the wagon again but 6/6 Town is not likely.

Why would being wrong about me make you doubt your other top scum read? Are you saying that if you had successfully voted me our Furtive out, and once of us flipped town, then you'd think the other was town?

And you're right, 6/6 town being wrong isn't likely. the odds of town being wrong are extremely low, in fact. That's because there weren't 6/6 townies voting me or suspecting me. There were only 4.

You just seem to be admitting here that you don't want to vote out your scum reads and prefer to just push out a low poster who isn't defending themself.

Players reevaluate all the time. You aren’t flipped but are as good as, and my reads have already changed so what is the point of your question exactly? Clearly my worldview needs adjustment. If I was wrong about you I could just as easily be wrong about others too. I’m not confident that FG flips either way anymore.

6/6 counts everyone on the wagon (including you) which matters for the odds.

I literally just told you I am less sure about all of my reads. I hard charged on a wagon that got the Cop outted. I know you feel righteous in your conftown status but I don’t care. I am resetting and starting over again. Vote me or move on. You’re doing exactly what I did that got Town into this mess by tunneling incessantly.

It seems that you're only ok with tunneling a scum when you do it to confirmed townies, and that because of your "mistake" that no one else is allowed to pursue their scum reads unless it saves Furtive.

What do you think of Furtive blindly defending you and trying to save you from elimination last night even though he said you were scummy and that you were his only current scum read?

[Roden]

After quick-reading pages 11-15, I'm inclined to either vote for:

Tidus/72off (lurkers)

or

Furtive (in my scummy list plus being pushed by PR)

Has anyone counter-claimed yet? I haven't checked in detail. Once he's confirmed cop, I'll most probably vote for Furtive since we got more info from him being eliminated than the lurkers.

I find it interesting though that 72off suddenly came to life this past few pages after getting a vote.

Every one has checked in and nobody counter claimed.

However, Whiskey treated me as confirmed Cop before everyone finished checking in.

[Roden]

It seems that you're only ok with tunneling a scum when you do it to confirmed townies, and that because of your "mistake" that no one else is allowed to pursue their scum reads unless it saves Furtive.

What do you think of Furtive blindly defending you and trying to save you from elimination last night even though he said you were scummy and that you were his only current scum read?

For future reference, when you write stuff like you have here in the bold, it's the reason I scum read you. It is a blatant exaggeration and simply not true. Chirp away to your heart's content, I literally cannot stop you, but if you are going to continue asking me questions that are clearly leading and false I will just stop responding to you all together.

Things FG actually said last night:
1) My turn was weird/scummy
2) I am a complex read for him
3) 72 and Tidus were null/scum reads from before
4) He was probably going to eat it anyway

#4 actually has me wanting to TR that slot because of how accepting they seem to be of getting elimmed. Take a step outside your tunnel and consider that for a sec. There is a universe were all three of us are Town and the scum have been under the radar. Think about what you have said regarding scum play vs town play and then reevaluate this D1 - I think you'll find it enlightening.

Cool, you didn't answer a single question and instead defended your scum read again.

[Roden]

Furtive and Whiskey try to wagon me, it fails. They scum read each other but refuse to vote each other, instead choosing to wagon 72 even though neither scum read 72. 72 then town tells, the rest of the player list feels hesitant to vote there, so Furtive and Whiskey both swap to Alianna without even discussing anything with each other. Neither scum read Alianna, and she isn't a low poster. Whiskey claims he wants to vote Alianna because I said she did something anti town, but doesn't want to vote Furtive even though we both scum read them.

They are making it very clear that they are aligned, and we know Masons aren't in play.

[Roden]

I guess I'm the mislim now?
Idk what my reads are at this point. The cop claim changed everything.

I feel that my claim just exposed scum who were banking on a mis-elim that couldn't go through.

Do you not want to vote Furtive?

[Roden]

Well uh you're kinda running out of time, you need to decide quick.

[Roden]

That's not how that works. If Alianna was scum and knew Furtive was town, she would just sheep the Cop and blame my bad reads once they flip town. Instead, she's showing hesitance, since she's afraid of being wrong and feels pressured to get this vote right. This is a town mindset.

All Furtive and Whiskey care about is making sure each other survive. They don't care if they vote correctly or not, as long as they don't die. This is a scum mindset.

[Roden]

Roden, I don't know how many times I can say this, but me/whiskey delta is just not it. You're searching for ghosts, man. I'm worried that you're going to derail this game for us if you keep the blinkers on.

My preferred options for today's elimination are Alianna/hutmeil. If you would rather do hutmeil, I'll switch. Otherwise my vote stays.

You wanted me dead because I scum read Hitmeil, but now you're fine voting there? What happened to that read?

[Roden]

Which reads did you flip?

You and Alianna, as it were. Not directly correlated to each other, but I am leaning more Town on you so your read on her does impact mine to a degree. So does 72's. I would be lying if I said I wasn't sponging their read but I think they could be on the right track with Alianna/Greeting/hutmeil roughly.

The short and dirty:
I think the way you have largely approached the D1 blunder has been Townie. Instead of switching gears onto me after Roden's reveal and him pressuring you to do so - which there was plenty of opportunity to do - you stayed consistent on your other reads. You also hesitated to vote Roden until I forced you by switching and making you the vote leader instead.

Simply put I think I was too quick to TR Alianna and could have been pocketed instead. I am bothered that she had me at the top of her TRs after I did the same with her first. 72's post (idr the number right now) pointing out the odd read Greeting made on that slot that has me really tinfoiling. Both of those players fit the criteria of what I think scum would look like who were largely out of the spotlight on D1. Both helped to wagon the Cop to E-1 while my big mouth did most of the arguing too.

That's not how that works. If Alianna was scum and knew Furtive was town, she would just sheep the Cop and blame my bad reads once they flip town. Instead, she's showing hesitance, since she's afraid of being wrong and feels pressured to get this vote right. This is a town mindset.

All Furtive and Whiskey care about is making sure each other survive. They don't care if they vote correctly or not, as long as they don't die. This is a scum mindset.

Or could be newbscum who in the span of a few hours went from zero pressure to vote leader and aren't sure how to proceed because they know a FG!town flip would make them look worse after also being on the Cop wagon. She can't just eat this elim if she's scum but she also can't just wagon onto one of her TR's without it looking sketchy.

Are you seriously trying to claim scum would rather die than miselim a townie because it's more suspicious to vote than die??

[Roden]

It changed. Reads change. I know you think that's scummy, but I'm trying to keep you updated as best I can. I thought hutmeil was newbtown but no longer think so. They aren't talking like a noob, and it unnerves me.

If that were true, why did you double down on your town read on Hutmeil when I made that exact same argument earlier before my Cop claim?

[Roden]

For FG I think part of it is that they aren’t scum reading me tbh but also

because I was so wrong about you

I am doubting my scum (and town) reads more generally.

Looking at the wagons at the time of your claim is what is really making me reconsider.

Wait.

Is this TMI?

I think it's safe to assume that giving scum info about town PRs was considered anti-town play even a decade ago.

Is this the part where you double down on your pressure vote and turn it into a scum case?

I’d be curious to your thoughts on the reasons hutmeil is being TR by others and where you stand on that

I'll have further things to say on Hutmeil when they respond and offer more content.

Hutmeil is getting town read because no one really wants to rock the boat in newbie games. It's easier to defend someone than attack them, it typically gets you town read and lessens attention on yourself compared to those who go on the offensive. People are going to criticize Hut's play but hesitate to vote there, since they're giving off the appearance of a clueless townie.

Regardless of Hutmeil's alignment, scum won't be pushing there and will almost certainly white knight the slot. If Hut is scum, their play is just there to obfuscate the game state and make it a slog to solve people. If they're town, they will get white knight'd extra hard, and scum will let them lead the charge on OMGUS counter wagons so that Hut will take the heat every time town gets flipped.

This is an interesting point. My initial response is that you earlier scumread Hutmeil and backed it up, but now seem to be acknowledging that they're townread. Do you now think they're town, or am I wrongly inferring that?

You say regardless of Hutmeil's alignment, but scum can only 'white knight' a town player, surely?

I don't think that they're town, I just understand why they're getting town read. No matter Hutmeil's actual alignment, I think the reason they're getting town read is a poor reason, since it comes from self-preservation rather than any attempts to actually analyze the player.

Also, scum can white knight each other, because unless the town knows who the exact scum team is, no one can tell the difference between white knighting and defending a partner.

Lunchtime post, only up to 185 sry peeps, will read further tonight, probs in about 6-8 hours

I'm a Cop.

Now kill Furtive.

72 didn't see my Cop claim yet lmao

Whiskey never denied this.

[Roden]

The Day isn’t over yet, Roden. You’re getting ahead of yourself. Let’s see where the people who aren’t voting actually vote first before declaring them Townie or not.

Conftowns aren't allowed to have town reads now huh

[Roden]

The Day isn’t over yet, Roden. You’re getting ahead of yourself. Let’s see where the people who aren’t voting actually vote first before declaring them Townie or not.

Conftowns aren't allowed to have town reads now huh

This doesn't even make sense because you and Furtive are hard defending each other even though you were supposedly each other's only scum reads

Like you're outright telling me I can't town read people and that only you are Furtive are allowed to do so

[Roden]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... unting_Kit

I recommend town taking a look at this before deciding to townlock Furtive and Whiskey and lose the game.

[Roden]

People need to start voting.

[Roden]

Maybe you understand why I wanted to Cop check him now.

[Roden]

GG, scum played well. I'm sad I didn't get to use my Cop check but oh well.

Thanks the worst for modding, I enjoyed all of the bird facts.