Newbie 2100 | Town wins

[NJAC]

Greetings @Greeting.

Can you please explain why exactly did you change your mind on D1, from being against Callum's slot Lim to supporting it?

[NJAC]

I think keeping alive a player like kitty too long in the game is bad. There's a lot of promises to improve activity but he again comes and say that he forgot about the game. So:

VOTE: Kitty

[NJAC]

@ NJAC I'd leave discussion about that until closer to the end of the Day.

I'll be on in about 4ish hours.

Okay, what about discussing Kitty's alignment? Do you think he is town?


BTW, forum Mafia is expected to be played asynchronously, so it's not necessary to wait for others to be online to have interactions.

[NJAC]

I actually have free time now, I was just busy before and now I simply forgot.

Okay. It's good to know that you have free time. So, who are the scum and why?

[NJAC]

@NJAC

, you caught up from the D1 I suppose, who do you think is likely to be scums? And does your

Kitty

scumread only based on low activity?

1) I'm still working on it. Some of my initial reads while catching up were wrong, so I'm reconsidering my reads on everyone. I shared most of the reads and thoughts from Greeting on D1, except that I would probably have insisted more on not limming Calum/T3 slot. Greeting is probably town, same with Wayward though I'm still undecided. You and Kitty are harder to read. And the others, I need more input from them.

2) Nope. I'm not convinced that Kitty's only suspect during the whole D1 was Calum/T3 slot, and he didn't even considered that Calum was just a newbie who wasn't sure how to play and handle the suspicions on him. Also Kitty didn't seem interested in solving the game.

[NJAC]

I've read games where Kitty was both Town and Scum, and I'm not ready to lim LHF.

Also, you were a Town read of mine (before replacement), thoughts on that?

1) Yep, I know that you said you had done some meta research, but that doesn't answer my question. I asked if you think Kitty is town or not.

2) My thoughts on that is that you were right. I think my predecessor was doing a good job. If you want me to comment anything else about it let me know.

[NJAC]

[quote="In post 384
Greetings,

NJAC

. Welcome back!

I have already spoken about this, but here’s a tl;dr version:

I have nullread Calum and firmly wanted to believe that the slot was just lost, misguided town. Reason for this being the fact that I have player many Newbie games here and most of them had players like that. I am more lenient towards actual newbies than SEs, because these games are supposed to be providing a good learning experience for those who may not have it.

Then,

T3

subbed in, and started catching up. His catchup was extremely long, the post content felt chaotic and inconsistent, the catchup, also, in my opinion, lacked definition conclusions about the gamestate. I decided that his push on me must be motivated by something else rather than „scumreading” me as the basis of his argument was one post I made, 23.

T3

’s miselimination was unfortunate, but likely inevitable.

Thanks for the welcome.

And, fair enough, I think I understand your reasons. Just a couple of questions more about this:

1) Did you consider that T3 was a good replacement and beneficial to the game, given that he was being active and seemed to be putting some work to solve the game? Did you consider that he was also still a newbie?

2) Why did you say you were tired of D1 and kind of wanted to end it soon, when there were replacements taking place, and considering that the deadline was frozen it could be beneficial to have more input from the replaced in players, before taking a final decision?

[NJAC]

I just saw that T3 wasn't newbie, so disregard that part.

[NJAC]

Greeting is manipulative from first post in game, i don't really see how Greeting can be town.

Please elaborate

[NJAC]

I forgor about this game, will catch up and respond tomorrow morning.

I forgot to mention about Kitty, and it was another reason to vote him, that this first post on D2 in which he says he "forgot" about the game, looks to me like an excuse in advance so he can prove that he didn't do anything in the game during the night phase. But if he really forgot it, why bothering mentioning this instead of just catching up (supposing he was not fully caught up at that moment, which I don't see why, because it's not like a lot happened since his last post)?

[NJAC]

I just feel Greeting!Town doesh't post "Hello newbies if you are green we are in same team".

So, you have played with him several times, and have never seen him posting anything like that before as town, but only as scum, right?

[NJAC]

2) I'm not convinced that Kitty's only suspect during the whole D1 was Calum/T3 slot, and he didn't even considered that Calum was just a newbie who wasn't sure how to play and handle the suspicions on him. Also Kitty didn't seem interested in solving the game.

@

Kitty

you commented about my 412, but can you please also comment about my 404, specifically what I quoted above?

[NJAC]

Greeting
Wayward
Salsa
Moonshot
Kitty/Enchant

But still evaluating my reads...

[NJAC]

We should start forming a serious wagon, right? Those not voting should vote.

[NJAC]

@

Wayward

: your town read on Moonshot is based mainly on 26, or you have seen something else?

[NJAC]

Greeting+NJAC are mafia team.

Please explain your theory, as detailed as you can.

[NJAC]

Yeah, very convincing. And why aren't you voting?

[NJAC]

But, if you are sure Greeting is scum, shouldn't you vote him?

[NJAC]

We only have less than 4 days left to make a decision. We need to form a wagon, make our biggest suspect claim, and if necessary form a new wagon. Many players are posting once a day or less, so I'm worried we end up short on time and deciding bad.

[NJAC]

More than 11 hours without a post. I'm worried about the activity in the game.

@Town: we need to increase activity. We only have 3 days to make a decision on who to Lim.

Last time I played on this site (several years ago) day phase used to last two weeks, but now I see a shorter time, which, together with the low activity, could be detrimental for the town.

[NJAC]

BTW, @All: do you use to read the game and post from your phones? If not, why not?

[NJAC]

@ NJAC what's your opinion on Enchant's solve?

While I can see why some players might see Greeting scummy, I think Enchant's case on him is very weak. According to Enchant, Greeting posting: "if you're green you are on my team" can only come from scum!Greeting, but I don't really see why it can't come from town!Greeting.

Then Enchant says that I'm white knighting Greeting, and that it makes me his partner, but according to my experience scum can either defend their partners, keep distance or even bus each other, so without a flip looking for associations can hardly lead to the scum pair, and even with a red flip it's important to read each player's thoughts, motivations, interactions, votes and behavior, before deciding on the scum pair.

[NJAC]

Now seeking for a replacement for Moonshot.

@Mod: will the deadline be frozen until a replacement is found?

[NJAC]

@All: if any of you got the message from Bloodshot on N1, please say. I want to know who was Bloodshot trusting in the end.

[NJAC]

Gun to head Kitty and NJAC?

Why?

Please explain both reads in detail.

[NJAC]

On NJAC i agree.
We can elim him first instead if you insist, though Greeting probably will get away and decimate you if i die.

But why me first? According to you I'm scum for white knighting Greeting, so I'm scum IF Greeting is scum, right?

Or, am I scum for another reasons? If so, what are those reasons?

[NJAC]

Well. It's kinda hard to find support on Greeting.
Why you are not maf?

This is not how it works, if you're voting me and willing to Lim me you should explain your reasons about why you think I'm scum.

What do you expect me to answer? I know I'm not maf.

But okay, I suppose that's your approach to the game, you expect others to do the job for you. So, to give an answer to you, consider this:

I'm trying to solve the game, I'm active and contributing, I'm playing with a town mindset trying to read intentions and generating interactions and reactions. Add to that what my predecessor did and you'll have your answer.

[NJAC]

Yea it's cool words. But i don't feel you heart.

From first post to last, you talk like lawyer, talking about importance interactions, and other things. I certainly love law language, but your case is eeeeeeeeh.

Idk maybe it's YOUR style, but fuck it.

So, your "case" on me is you don't feel my heart and I talk like a lawyer, right?

Well, if you're town, let me tell you that you are not one of the best townies I've played with.

And I don't even know what's wrong with my style, according to you. I'm playing according to what I learned from this site several years ago, I don't know if the general meta of the site has changed, but if so please enlighten me and tell me how a good townie should play.

[NJAC]

Well. It's kinda hard to find support on Greeting.
Why you are not maf?

This is not how it works, if you're voting me and willing to Lim me you should explain your reasons about why you think I'm scum.

What do you expect me to answer? I know I'm not maf.

But okay, I suppose that's your approach to the game, you expect others to do the job for you. So, to give an answer to you, consider this:

I'm trying to solve the game, I'm active and contributing, I'm playing with a town mindset trying to read intentions and generating interactions and reactions. Add to that what my predecessor did and you'll have your answer.

Why do you keep thinking that your predecessor was the obvtown lol....
And "

I know I'm not maf.

" doesn't help the rest of us to read you because guess what, we don't know your role!

As I said before I think my predecessor was doing a good job, not sure if he was obvtown in your eyes, but I think he was contributing to solving the game.

And I obviously know you don't know my role, that's why I asked Enchant what he expected me to answer. Did you even read my post in context or not?

[NJAC]

I am casual gamer

Is this addressed to me? I'm not following you, please explain.

[NJAC]

The thing is any case you make on a player should be at least coherent and if possible convincing.

Your case on me is one of the silliest I've seen, I mean, in what booki is posting like a lawyer a scummy treat? (I don't even think I write like a lawyer, but whatever).

Your case on Greeting is that town!him wouldn't post "if you're green you're on my team", but in many newbie games I played on this site I saw IC players (and probably SE too) posting in similar fashion, and I think that's not alignment indicative.

So what I'm saying is that your cases are weak, and that if you're actually town you should make a better effort.

[NJAC]

You realize I not only mentioned your "case" on me, but I also mentioned your weak (call it silly too) case on Greeting, right?

So no, I don't call it silly just because is on me, if you had a better case on me, then we would probably have a more constructive debate.

And with regards to a case on you, I'm still figuring out if your jump on my wagon is scum!you being opportunistic and maybe encouraged by your partner, or if it's town!you actually finding me scummy (that's why I insist on your motivations, reasons and arguments), but at the moment I'm leaning the former.

[NJAC]

You prefer limming Greeting, or you prefer keeping Greeting alive in the game?

[NJAC]

21 pages.

Oh boy.

Someone give me a quick run down of what has happened?

The main thing on D1 was the miselimination of Callum/T3 slot. Callum was scummy but also newbie so it was kind of understandable that he wasn't aware of how his actions were perceived and his erratic posts put him in a difficult situation which he apparently didn't handle very well. Then he replaced out and T3 got in, and while I think he was showing some effort to quickly catch up and get involved in the game, he started to make a case against Greeting that was not very convincing. It's also important to mention that it was precisely Greeting the main defender of Callum, so T3 almost digged his own grave by attacking the main defender of his slot. In the end Greeting ended up voting T3, together with several others. As a side note, recently on D2, Greeting was making a case of Salsabil jumping off T3 wagon apparently without a convincing reason.

Also on D1 Bloodshot, who was scum read by several players (specially Greeting) soft claimed, I think like an attempt to get rid of the suspects on him, which ended up being a big mistake because as expected he was NKed.

Of course other things happened on D1, like a lot of replacements, Kitty contributing essentially nothing to the game despite being an SE, your slot being town read, etc., so I highly encourage you to read it all.

Then on D2 things have been very slow, very low activity overall, me trying to generate some interactions and reactions, and trying to read everyone (I replaced in when T3 was already eliminated), Enchant being a bad townie (according to my criterion, and assuming he's town, which I'm still deciding), some pushes on my slot and Greeting, and a lot of resistance to form a wagon on Kitty, even though I made a decent case on him.

Again, my advice is to go and read, but those are some quick things that come to my mind while phone posting.

[NJAC]

Wait! What? Why are you scum reading Moonshot?

I'm also interested in your town read on Enchant.

[NJAC]

BTW, @Greeting, are you fully caught up at this moment?

Also, why exactly you were so absent during this D2?

[NJAC]

@Town: we need to increase activity. We only have 3 days to make a decision on who to Lim.

LESS THAN TWO DAYS NOW

Where is everybody?

Some townies should join me on Kitty, BTW.

[NJAC]

Okay Greeting. In that case you should seriously consider voting Kitty.

Let me restate my case:

1) I really doubt his only scum read during the whole D1 was Calum and only Calum. He didn't even make an effort to try to understand Calum's motivations and what you were saying about him being a newbie. So Kitty simply decided to keep his vote on a likely mislim the whole D1.

2) Kitty is not trying to solve the game and his contribution has been null. He can rely on meta to avoid being eliminated, because apparently many of you have played with him and know that he is anti town, no matter his alignment.

3) He insists that he forgot about the game, and make empty promises to improve activity, but that hasn't happened. What calls my attention the most is that his first post on D2 is again: "I forgot about this game", which looks to me like an attempt to "prove" that he did nothing during the night phase. But why bothering mentioning that when D2 has just begun? Also he said that he was going to catch up, but at that point not much really happened since his last post (347). If he wasn't indeed fully caught up at that moment he could easily just read the posts after his 347, and I think he at least did read the mod post with the revelation of Calum's role, i.e. post 375, and probably also the NK result, post 378. So, I'm saying that Kitty stating that he wasn't fully caught up at that moment is FAKE.

4) I find a lot of resistance to form a wagon on Kitty. If Kitty were town I would expect at least one scum to consider joining that wagon, but that hasn't happened. So I think Kitty is indeed scum and his partner is either explicitly excusing Kitty, maybe talking about not supporting a policy Lim or anything like that, or simply ignoring my attempt to form a wagon on Kitty.

[NJAC]

I think I need to reread and maybe consider a Kitty/Salsa scumpair.

@All: feel free to comment on my case on Kitty, and tell me if I am wrong.

[NJAC]

@Kitty: can you please state your case on me as clear and detailed as possible?

[NJAC]

I tend to hyperfocus on one scummy person.

Then, if you are actually town, stop that nonsense approach and focus on the whole game instead.

2) Kitty is not trying to solve the game and his contribution has been null. He can rely on meta to avoid being eliminated, because apparently many of you have played with him and know that he is anti town, no matter his alignment.

How?

How what? I think is pretty obvious that you have no initiative, you barely post when someone calls you, so your contribution is minimal and you don't make a sincere attempt to solve the game.

And "which looks to me like an attempt to "prove" that he did nothing during the night phase" stinks like a contrived attempt at shading me.

But why can't this come from a town mindset who genuinely thinks you were stating something pointless, unnecessary and hard to believe (that you forgot about the game)?

It's because I am playing like town me and you're scum trying to miselim me.

You at least have to admit that YOU ARE NOT PLAYING LIKE TOWN, you yourself even say that you're scummy, so this is not believable at all. And how exactly does town!you play different from scum!you?

[NJAC]

I find it really hard to read Kitty, so I would appreciate if someone else addresses my case on him and show me whether it has fails or not.

[NJAC]

Yeah. Scum are doing a good job. And Town is playing suboptimal. This low activity will probably make us lose.

Less than 24 hours and we don't even have a decent wagon.

:sigh:

[NJAC]

Nice. I think at this point I'm fine with limming Kitty, Enchant and probably Salsa.

[NJAC]

All of this is 100% true, but are you aware of

KittyTacky

's meta? He just... plays like that every time. That's why I am so reluctant to place a vote there.

Well, I see some of you have played with Kitty before, but for me it's the first time I play with all of you, except BBT, I played with him before.

So no, I don't really know about Kitty's meta. I find his play scummy, anti town and his contribution is minimal IN THIS GAME, which is the game I'm focused on.

If Kitty always plays like this regardless of alignment, then he could easily be scum this game.

Has it happened before, in other games that you are aware of, that forming a wagon on town!kitty is very hard to accomplish?

[NJAC]

Wait!

NJAC

isn't a newbie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spoiler:

New POE: {

NJAC > Wayward/BlueBloodedToffee > Greeting

}

VOTE: NJAC

Care to explain?

[NJAC]

I'm here if someone declares intent to hammer and want me to claim. But if so, don't forget to include your reasons to eliminating me.

I'm also fine with switching my vote on Salsa.

[NJAC]

@Salsa. If you're actually town go and read my complete case on Kitty, is in 520, and stop saying that my whole case on Kitty is only about him saying that he forgot about the game.

Also with regards to that statement of Kitty is also important to note when he said that, and the possible intents behind it, which I explain in detail in the mentioned post.

In the many games I played I don't remember seeing anyone posting so many times that they forgot about the game, but I agree this alone is NAI, that's why my case doesn't rely exclusively on that.

Finally, last time I played on this site (like five years ago or so), the general consensus was that a player only claims when they are at E-1 AND SOMEONE DECLARES INTENT TO HAMMER. Otherwise we would be outing roles too easily and facilitating things for the scum.

[NJAC]

How do I catch the intent? Well, it's how I read that in that moment. I don't really see the point of posting [383] at the very beginning of D2 when only two players had posted. If Kitty was indeed not fully caught up at that moment, he could just go and read and come with something of substance, but he decided to simply say "I forgot and going to catch up", and as I explained several times, it seems like an attempt to prove that he wasn't active during the night phase.

I'm getting tired of repeating that, BTW. So stop misrepping me.

My last sentence was because I thought you were asking me what I was waiting for to claim. But now that I understand what you were asking, I say that I'm more convinced of Kitty being scum than you, but if a Kitty Lim doesn't happen then I'm fine with eliminating you.

[NJAC]

Mmm that was supposed to be a link to 383

[NJAC]

I am taking into account the case Greeting made on you, which I find plausible. I also didn't like at all your attitude when you were at E-1. And I find your jump on my wagon very suspicious. So you're currently leaning scum for me.

[NJAC]

WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME.

Where is everyone?

[NJAC]

I'm leaning Greeting. Thoughts?

[NJAC]

Yeah. I'm alive probably because I was town reading Greeting.

[NJAC]

Yeah, right. So, who's the scum and why?

[NJAC]

Okay, but gun to your head what's your guess?

[NJAC]

I don't think it's Greeting.

510 makes it unlikely I think?

Why? I think he was defending Kitty there.

[NJAC]

I think we're winning this. It's either Greeting or BBT. I'm almost sure it's Greeting.

[NJAC]

I don't think it's Greeting.

510 makes it unlikely I think?

Why? I think he was defending Kitty there.

I was defending

KittyTacky

. Does that make me scum though?

That alone doesn't make you scum, but it was such a blatant and reiterated defense, which together with other things you've done in this game make you scum.

[NJAC]

It's not MeLo @Salsa. We can still mislimm and have another chance the next day.

[NJAC]

@Salsa, other things that make Greeting scum is him casting shade on BBT's slot and my slot to widen his limpool.

Also he being so stubborn to join Kitty's wagon, despite me insisting, and even when he supposedly agreed with what I was saying, was very scummy, even more when you look at it in hindsight.

[NJAC]

There's more, like Greeting switching from defending Calum's slot on D1 to voting it, and his not so convincing case on Salsa while there was some pressure on his partner Kitty.

[NJAC]

@Salsa, other things that make Greeting scum is him casting shade on BBT's slot and my slot to widen his limpool.

Also he being so stubborn to join Kitty's wagon, despite me insisting, and even when he supposedly agreed with what I was saying, was very scummy, even more when you look at it in hindsight.

The question was asked by

Greeting

himself.
However, I agree with you + with the whole

BloodB0t & Tejate/NJAC

scenario in D1.

Yeah, sorry, I was reading and answering fast. And, as you said, Ockham's razor leads us to Greeting.

[NJAC]

Okay. Let's do it:

VOTE: Greeting

[NJAC]

GGWP Everyone. I'm happy to win my first game after several years of not playing here.

Greeting did a good job as scum. I was town reading him a lot after D1. Unfortunate for him that his partner was Kitty, and that I replaced in, LOL.

[NJAC]

Thanks for modding @lendunistus. Awesome job.

I'm still confused about some of the pictures, though.

[NJAC]

I think the same Greeting: you were doing a good job. Just some minor mistakes as you mentioned, but after Kitty's death it was hard to win.

[NJAC]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts @Greeting. For some moments you and others made me doubt about Kitty, but I was almost sure I had caught a scum, so decided to insist on him.

[NJAC]

Sorry for repping out when there was already a lot of replacements, when I saw that second prod I realized there is no way I was going to be able to keep up with this with everything else going on. I did observe the rest of the game whenever I had a chance to read a couple pages, however. There's a very good chance this would have been different since this is coming from the perspective of someone who no longer had stakes in the game, but I feel based on everything I read for D1, I would have been very likely to shift to a Greeting wagon.

Spoiler: Greeting wall of text

To me, T3's entry posts looked very townie despite the defensiveness. Based on what I have seen of T3's play, defensiveness is not really unusual for him as either alignment. But that is besides the point, I didn't think it was Greeting just because I was starting to come around on a TR on T3's slot. In general Greeting, I felt your D1 play was very unnatural, but I had a hard time placing whether this was chaotic town or chaotic maf. People seemed to feel that way about my own play in this game, so I was a bit hesitant to call it maf play. But the turnaround on D1 felt unnatural to me. The defense of passive slots as "coasting" is not particularly unusual as a play for town, even if I do think it tends to be a bad one and is very easily used by mafia to save their own or keep limbait alive to complicate things later. The way you turned on him felt like you were thinking "oh T3 might actually get townread, may as well use the momentum already on this wagon to prevent that".

It also started to color my view of your previous opinion on Calum, which seemed to be pretty staunchly opposed to voting Calum, despite his terrible and tiny ISO. I get not being eager to lim coasty players, but the way you seemed to shrug off suspicion on him made me feel like he actually WAS town and you knew this. Either intending to buddy him, or use him as limbait later. There was some mention early on of there being "no reason" for mafia halt a town!Calum/T3 wagon's momentum, but I don't feel like that's true. If you delay a suspicious townie's elimination, in favor of a different elim that IS town (which there were clearly several wagons around as we now know), then they become a likely candidate for a later elimination. Which overall increases the likelihood of getting more than one townie eliminated. Suspicious townies surviving to LiLo in particular can often end up being disastrous for town.

Of course, my opinion of your motivations could very well be completely off. It doesn't really matter now anyways, just figured I may as well throw in my 2 cents on Greeting's play. Do keep in mind that all of that comes mostly from the perspective of a spectator, there's a good chance I would not have the same thought process had I stayed in.

NJAC, I think you overall played fine as my replacement. You seemed to trust Greeting a bit too much in the early game, but you did notice KittyTacky where all I saw was an actual coaster. It did end up being difficult for Greeting to win regardless.

It's good to see your perspective as spectator, I think you were doing a great job as town, so it was a pity that you replaced out. I indeed was trusting a bit too much Greeting, because while I was reading D1 I could relate to what he was saying and his reads. The only thing that was off was his sudden change from defending Calum's slot to vote it. That's why my very first post in the game addresses this, trying to understand his motivations for doing that.

Had he decided to bus Kitty, I would probably had been town reading him for the rest of the game.