Newbie 2117 | Postgame

[Black]

VOTE: Malakittens

:3

[Black]

hahaha nah, but on a real note I'd love to get to know a bit about yall! I'm just kinda curious how long yall have been playing mafia, your favorite role or alignment to be, and pronouns to call you by, cause I don't think many of you have pronouns listed on the site (and I'd like to refer to you correctly!)

Hi Andante! It's nice to meet you. I'm Black and I use she/her pronouns. I'm 27 and I haven't played mafia since I was a kid so I was really happy to stumble upon this site a couple months ago. I think my favorite role is wolf because I suck at wolf hunting lol

[Black]

Yo Black, been a while. You break your streak of rolling scum in newbie games yet?

Hey python! Sadly the streak was already broken before this game but I'm excited to play with you again

[Black]

My favourite alignment is mafia tho things have changed and I now prefer to be town

If lying is hard for you then why do you still consider mafia your favorite alignment? Is it still your favorite despite you not liking it that much anymore?

[Black]

In my previous games votes would be hidden, so that's why I haven't voted for you.

I see you as a scum now, I'll observe you and see if you greenify yourself.

Hidden votes seems crazy

This feels a little "you think I'm scum so I think you're scum" to me

What can we call you brzeczyszczykiewicz? My mind wants to call you breeze for some reason

[Black]

No, it's not mafia anymore plus I don't see discussing this is beneficial...lol

I guess I'm just confused why you said mafia is your favorite if it's not anymore

And re: hidden votes, I wasn't really saying it was impossible. I just don't think I would enjoy playing that way tbh

[Black]

VOTE: chaodck

I get weird vibes from people that use the word "interesting" too much in mafia. Why not vote for breeze if you are already scumreading him?

[Black]

Yes but your Python vote was a joke. Changing your vote to someone you actually consider scummy isn't sus imo

But I think I misunderstood your post #38. I didn't realize you were saying python was sketchy too. I think I read it wrong

[Black]

Still, I think that changing votes quickly, is scummy.

Do you think it's scummy that I've changed my vote already?

[Black]

What's OMGUS? Is it an overreacting to a vote?

Yeah

[Black]

Ok that's fair but I am curious if you consider me scummy for already changing mine

[Black]

@Wiz, ok, I can get on board with that explanation. It's funny how you are so worried about being caught lying already. This game does that to us huh

[Black]

@chao - you mentioned people thought you were scum for changing your votes so much. Were they right about you or were you displaying this type of voting behavior as town?

[Black]

*waves hand*

I am not the wolf you are looking for

[Black]

I've got some stuff to do and then I'll respond to you Andante

[Black]

there is 0 reason to SR ANYONE RIGHT NOW.

I thought you scumread me?

[Black]

Andante you're a bit chaotic. Not sure how to read you. What do you think about her, Black and Wiz?

I'm not really a fan of the contradictions. She said she doesn't TR python even though she said they are town and then she said there's no reason to sr anyone even though she SRs me

[Black]

@chao - you mentioned people thought you were scum for changing your votes so much. Were they right about you or were you displaying this type of voting behavior as town?

I find it interesting you want to bring this up, like maybe just cause I've been SRed for flipping my vote so many times so like, I know EXACTLY what's being talked about but like, wht would your opinion be on someone flipping their vote 50 million times?

hmmm
VOTE: Black

I can explain why I brought it up. Chao was saying he doesn't want to get scumread for switching votes around so in my mind that tells me he thinks switching votes around is scummy. I asked the question above because I wanted to know if people scumread his vote switching when he was town, because that implies that vote switching can be done by either alignment and is therefore NAI

I'm not even sure why you scumread this from me?

[Black]

Yeah, Black, that confuses me too. But I already suspected usesPython. One of them would be clean, they wouldn't have this weird convo otherwise. I think we could check them both, if one's green, the other's red and vice versa. Let's wait for other players to elaborate.

I think it could be tvt... why do you rule this out?

[Black]

Actually breezy it seems like you're setting up multiple flips with that comment and I'm not vibing with that

[Black]

What are flips?

When a player dies and they "flip" showing what their role and alignment is. You are saying one of these two is scum and if we flip one green then we should flip the other one the next day

[Black]

But even if Aldente is green, I don't think she's helping the town with erratic behavior. Wrongdoing and chaotic town is a worse enemy than scum.

Are you saying you'd be ok voting Andante even if they are town here?

[Black]

VOTE: brzeczyszczykiewicz

Voting for people you think are town is crazy

[Black]

That's three vote switches in 5 pages if anyone is counting

[Black]

Wrongdoing and chaotic town is a worse enemy than scum.

Idk python...this feels like breezy knows Andante is townie and is justifying voting for her anyway. I don't like it

[Black]

Also I disagree that chaotic town is a worse enemy than scum. We play to get rid of wolves, period

[Black]

I've heard that a vig shot is a good method to get rid of those types of slots, or a policy lim later in the game which we already discussed isn't happening here with only 9 players. And clearly the vig shot isn't happening in a newbie game either so we just have to let the chaotic player figure it out themselves

[Black]

mala where are you my sweet kitty?

[Black]

I don't like #96 and #97 from Andante. It feels like she is getting really defensive here and trying really hard to point out all the townie stuff she is doing. This is more likely to come from wolf I think

[Black]

I think Mr. Skies entrance is just...ok. I disagree on Python/breeze...it's reverse for me. I think python is probably town and I'm scumreading breeze atm

Also I'm not sure why there is a "decent chance" mala is scum here. Can you elaborate?

[Black]

Ok, that's fair. Tbh I didn't even notice one confirmed and the other didn't

I don't think mala's absence is AI but I can see where you're coming from with your read at least

[Black]

I think you're partners with mala lol, so uhh mala as scum, most of the time does not do much

this post is like "how did you catch my partner who hasn't posted yet"

That's cool if you want to view it that way but I think you convinced yourself I'm scum and now you're reading everything I say with a red tint

I'm not familiar with mala's scum game, and it pinged me as weird that Brian thought she was more likely to be scum than the other inactive player. He explained it was because she confirmed and the other player didn't which I hasn't realized

[Black]

I'm not a fan of how Andante ignored other questions and quotes toward her just to tunnel more on me. I tunnel when I'm town but I always respond to stuff. The only time I start to avoid questions and accusations is when I'm a wolf

VOTE: Andante

Why did you say we have 0 reason to SR people after you dropped an SR on me? Also what was with your Python TR contradiction?

[Black]

VOTE: Black

of the people posting, she's who I sr the most, nut at least 1 of Mala/nothingNew are very likely scum

I don't think you have even explained your SR on me? From what I can tell you misinterpreted my question to Wiz regarding vote switching and ran with it

[Black]

EBWOP: it was chao, not Wiz

[Black]

I don't agree with the Andante read at all and the Brian read just feels like "no u" to me

Even so I think this is a good post by Wiz and the first real attempt at solving I've seen from him

[Black]

Regarding your question, I think Andante is more of a chaotic townie than a Mafia. That's my (albeit unskilled) read on her.

It feels like you sheeped this read from brz

[Black]

Hello Blue! The person you replaced claimed scum...is this true?

I like the argument against chao. My first game as wolf on this site I was sheeping people left and right without even realizing it until someone scumread me for it. It was kind of an "aha" moment for me and I'm wondering if chao could be experiencing this same feeling if he's a wolf rn

Still hoping to hear more from Andante when she gets time. This is probably my top SR atm

I'm not feeling brz as town, even considering the large games he plays in I don't like him saying a chaotic townie is a worse enemy than scum. It feels like a pre-justification if Andante does end up flipping town

Quick ISO on Wiz and I like this slot so far. The vote on brz in #149/#151 feels good. I don't agree with his Andante read in #172 but the rest of these reads seem ok

Need to hear more from Brian and mala obviously

[Black]

oh hi mala, you heard my request and came running, how sweet!

[Black]

I’d vote but we are out of the RVS window.

Yeahhhhh but you're not so go for it. We can't deprive you of RVS fun

[Black]

VOTE: black

<3~

I deserve this

[Black]

Hear more of what?

Well for starters I asked you some questions and you just passed over them. Let me go find them

[Black]

there is 0 reason to SR ANYONE RIGHT NOW.

I thought you scumread me?

--

@chao - you mentioned people thought you were scum for changing your votes so much. Were they right about you or were you displaying this type of voting behavior as town?

I find it interesting you want to bring this up, like maybe just cause I've been SRed for flipping my vote so many times so like, I know EXACTLY what's being talked about but like, wht would your opinion be on someone flipping their vote 50 million times?

hmmm
VOTE: Black

I can explain why I brought it up. Chao was saying he doesn't want to get scumread for switching votes around so in my mind that tells me he thinks switching votes around is scummy. I asked the question above because I wanted to know if people scumread his vote switching when he was town, because that implies that vote switching can be done by either alignment and is therefore NAI

I'm not even sure why you scumread this from me?

--

I'm not a fan of how Andante ignored other questions and quotes toward her just to tunnel more on me. I tunnel when I'm town but I always respond to stuff. The only time I start to avoid questions and accusations is when I'm a wolf

VOTE: Andante

Why did you say we have 0 reason to SR people after you dropped an SR on me? Also what was with your Python TR contradiction?

--

VOTE: Black

of the people posting, she's who I sr the most, nut at least 1 of Mala/nothingNew are very likely scum

I don't think you have even explained your SR on me? From what I can tell you misinterpreted my question to Wiz regarding vote switching and ran with it

[Black]

if I felt solid about the black sr I'd have been voting there?

You were voting there

[Black]

if I felt solid about the black sr I'd have been voting there?

You were voting there

yeah, rvs, then left my vote off anyone when I was over rvs

64 and 81 do not seem like random votes at all

[Black]

yeah, seemed odd that isntead of start talking game you just wanted to stick to "hmmm maybe people actually caught you as scum for flipping votes!!"

You didn't read my explanation of this comment to chao. Please scroll up a little and read it. I was not implying chao was wolf at all with this comment

[Black]

VOTE: Black

of the people posting, she's who I sr the most, nut at least 1 of Mala/nothingNew are very likely scum

yeah cause I needed an rvs vote and I was previously sheeping the person on python, then didn't feel like pressuring there

You had already placed an RVS vote on mala though. This didn't feel like a random vote. You put meaning behind it

[Black]

I don't think this particular conversation about rvs votes is AI for you. We are viewing it different and I think there is a disconnect here

[Black]

yeah, seemed odd that isntead of start talking game you just wanted to stick to "hmmm maybe people actually caught you as scum for flipping votes!!"

You didn't read my explanation of this comment to chao. Please scroll up a little and read it. I was not implying chao was wolf at all with this comment

Please read 106

[Black]

"like oh, they scumread you cause you were scum THAT game"

No, I still don't think you get what I was asking. I was trying to see if chao was town in the game he got sussed for vote switching. If he was then it would make sense for chao so consider vote switching NAI since he did it as town

[Black]

To*

[Black]

I might need to read other games of Andante's because she keeps pinging me and I'm not sure if it's a playstyle thing or not

205 has WIFOM - I think wolf would ask everyone their background and mafia experience to a) seem townie (I've done this as wolf) and b) gauge who the easiest targets will be

218 is OMGUS

@Andante can you link me a town game and a scum game of yours? If not no worries, I can probably pick through your posts to find them later

[Black]

I think I need to give my Andante read more time and research but I'm not opposed to voting here today

For now I want to move my vote though

VOTE: brz

This does not feel like a town ISO. I'll try to elaborate more later today when I have the time

[Black]

Andante likes to engage and she gets very upset when you ignore her or there's no engagement.

Huh. If this is true then I find it weird that she ignored me when I tried to engage

[Black]

@mala

Re: vig shot - I wasn't trying to confuse the new players but I see now how that post could have done so. I expect even the new players to read the setup chart but I guess that doesn't always happen

Re: Andante - I'm willing to take your word for it but I also want to do my own research when I get to a desktop later

Re: Brian's entrance - I didn't like it, I thought it was just "ok". And yeah I agree with you on the meta thing and that's partially why I questioned Brian's read

[Black]

Also maybe you missed this where I said it was NAI for you?

Ok, that's fair. Tbh I didn't even notice one confirmed and the other didn't

I don't think mala's absence is AI but I can see where you're coming from with your read at least

[Black]

Alright here's the brz iso that I couldn't get around to last night. Putting it in tags for the sake of everyone's eyes

Spoiler: brz iso

Hey, why would you vote for me? Because I'm Polish? Kinda disappointed, since I use Python too

Wiz, why is mafia your favorite alignment? You enjoy manipulating?

First post of the game. I have no issues here and I don't think the manipulating comment is AI


-----

Wiz, I don't like your answer at all, sounds sketchy, you stopped enjoying lying overnight?

And usesPython: your answer just let me realize that you're a scum and want to put me into queue to get lynched, while you can keep manipulating the town

brz disappeared after people started to sus him. Not really AI since he could just be busy. I would be expecting a brz prod today if he doesn't contribute
Python pointed out that this feels a little OMGUS and I agree. This post was early on in RVS but it doesn't read as a joke to me


-----

also: why I would vote already, if the day lasts ten days?

wiz, you don't make sense at all, you say I'm scared of getting into a fight while SIMULTANEOUSLY accusing me of casting shade on others?

Nothing here really. There's a difference in voting meta where brz comes from. Not really a big fan of this comment to Wiz because it's easy to cast shade while avoiding fights


-----

Why would I already vote for you if I have 10 days for that? You sound kinda anxious regarding the votes. As a town I'm an open-minded person. Will observe you, though.

I don't like "As a town I'm an open-minded person" ...doesn't feel genuine


-----

In my previous games votes would be hidden, so that's why I haven't voted for you.

I see you as a scum now, I'll observe you and see if you greenify yourself.

Echoing his python SR


-----

VOTE: usesPython

Since the meta here is immediate voting for current suspect, then I'll adhere to it.

I'll comment on what's going on here later, after work.

Finally puts the vote on python here


-----

From a quick overview: Black good points about Wiz.

I meant Black making good point regarding Wiz's explanations. They got me confused for a while too regarding their favorite faction. Now Wiz's explanations sounds reasonable to me to.

Kinda following the thread consensus here and backing off of his Wiz stance


-----

Andante you're a bit chaotic. Not sure how to read you. What do you think about her, Black and Wiz?

I don't like brz invoking me/Wiz here. This pings me hard. This is something I did a lot in my first wolf game on the site and I didn't even realize it was scummy until someone else called me out for it


-----

Yeah, Black, that confuses me too. But I already suspected usesPython. One of them would be clean, they wouldn't have this weird convo otherwise. I think we could check them both, if one's green, the other's red and vice versa. Let's wait for other players to elaborate.

Really don't like this post. brz is saying python vs. Andante is town vs. scum and is posturing to lim the other if the first one flips green. Setting up a lim chain like this is more likely to come from wolf, especially so early in the game


-----

But even if Aldente is green, I don't think she's helping the town with erratic behavior. Wrongdoing and chaotic town is a worse enemy than scum.

Already talked about this post but yeah, there is no enemy worse than scum, I don't care how chaotic town is being. This feels like brz trying to justify pushing Andante even though he doesn't necessarily SR her. It also just feels a little informed like he knows Andante is town or something


-----

I need to see how many eliminations we have in this setup (what accuracy rate we need to win) to win. I'm used to bigger sessions, where we could 'spare' an elimination to get rid of chaotic townie + see who attacked said townie. So if I check the setup and we can "afford" eliminating a townie to get answers, then I'd go forward with it. So the answer is yes, Black.

I like the honesty here but I still don't like the base opinion on policy limming a townie D1


-----

You're annoyed by being pressured? You don't like answering uncomfortable questions, Wiz?

I actually don't mind this post


-----

Every interaction helps, especially when one of us flips. You should make as many interactions as possible. Not frown and claim you're UNCOMFORTABLE.

I agree here but it feels like brz is picking little things to SR Wiz for after feeling a little bit better about Wiz earlier


-----

Brian good posts during the night, rather green than red.

Not sure what is green from Brian here, would like an elaboration at some point


-----

Green vibes:
Brian Skies
Black

Red vibes:
usesPython
Wiz

Unsure, chaotic townies?:
Andante
chaodck

Algae:

Malakittens

No real issues with this list other than I disagree with almost all of it. The Wiz SR is kinda weird since brz admitted that the early game alignment talk made more sense after I pointed some things out

brz has ghosted the past couple of days so I would expect a prod today if he doesn't contribute something soon

[Black]

I think my list looks something like this after 12 pages

TOWN

python
Wiz
Blue
mala
Brian
chao
Andante
brz

SCUM

python and Wiz seem the towniest atm. Blue and mala have less content but I am also getting town vibes from them. Brian is nullish leaning slightly red I think, and then the bottom 3 are people I would be comfortable voting today

[Black]

Deltabreedy replaces WizKvothe.

Hi Delta! I would expect you to stick with your personal policy of pushing me D1 after last game so... bring it on!

[Black]

Disclaimer though: I finally rolled town in a newbie game

[Black]

The trick is to never reassess a Black scumread once you finally have one

LMAO

[Black]

Chao, do you think python and brz is a viable scum team?

[Black]

I actually like this post by Chao

[Black]

Ninja'd by a whole game (some things never change).

I lol'd

[Black]

That said, I can appreciate the frustration from the manner in which Brian placed the vote and then dipped for a bit.

Eh...it seemed like an overreaction to the vote to me. And then accusing Brian of ignoring her when he said he was going to bed

I can't figure out Andante rn

[Black]

I have an opinion on the Blue thing but I don't want to interfere with your line of questioning, so I'll hold onto it for now

[Black]

Unless you want me to share of course. It's basically just answering for Blue and what I think his motives are

[Black]

That's what I was thinking but I also wanted to be transparent. I can wait

[Black]

I don't think this is scummy from Blue

If Blue's thoughts on Brian involve chao then wouldn't it make sense to have chao respond first? Otherwise chao's response might be tainted

[Black]

So yeah, with the slot having gone 4 days without saying anything of note, I think it's pretty reasonable to insist that they offer something.

I can agree with this, but maybe forcing the Brian opinion out of him isn't the play here. I would love to hear what Blue thinks about all of the other slots not named Brian and chao

[Black]

What a VC. 7 out of the 9 players are being voted for

[Black]

chao needs to vote Delta and one of python/Brian need to vote mala

(yes this is fluff so what? What're you gonna do...scum read me for it? HAH)

[Black]

VOTE: Brian

That's e-2

[Black]

This is not a good post. Brz's post doesnt read as OMGUS and this just feels like Python is stretching to pick a fight.

Can you elaborate here? I thought brz calling python scum was pretty "no u" to me. Do you agree with brz that python was acting scummy on page 1?

[Black]

I feel comfortable townreading this slot. Their posts feel genuine to me and I can vibe with their analysis.

I throw out these exact same generic TRs when I'm wolf. Like all the time

[Black]

VOTE: Andante

It's late here, so I'm going to sleep.

Putting Andante at e-2 here and then falling asleep feels opportunistic but there could also be town motivation behind this

Not really feeling Brian's ISO after reading it through but I still think brz is scummier. Hopefully brz will respond to the prod

[Black]

I see the wagon.

¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

Cool...then surely you saw the question I asked you in the middle of it?

[Black]

Ok yeah you're right. #14 wasn't OMGUS but #17 was imo

[Black]

That's pretty much what I was expecting from Blue. I think he was making it pretty obvious that he was drawing connections between chao and Brian

I'm still leaving the door open for a chao partner if Brian flips wolf. Chao's posts have definitely gotten better but I'm not liking how he avoided giving a Brian opinion, and when he finally did he had to wait for awhile. I feel like that could have been an opportunity to get advice from Brian in the PT on how to handle the read. It would make sense if chao is pretty new needing advice from his SE wolfmate on how to deal with the pressure. Just a theory and I'm not saying this is reality but I can't rule it out

I think Blue comes out of this looking pretty townie to me. I can tell he's trying to solve with the way he approached the situation and I think 355 is a clarification that a wolf doesn't need to make here. This post almost feels like he's worried that his questioning won't amount to anything so he has to give a disclaimer not to expect much. Just feels like a very green thought process

@python I'm also not really feeling Brian's response to all this

[Black]

Moar pressure on brz? He dipped as the pressure was building on him. I can totally see him coming back to the thread with a couple votes and just noping back out of here

[Black]

VOTE: brz

[Black]

I think my list looks something like this after 12 pages

TOWN

python

Wiz

Delta
Blue
mala
Brian
chao
Andante
brz

SCUM

python and Wiz seem the towniest atm. Blue and mala have less content but I am also getting town vibes from them. Brian is nullish leaning slightly red I think, and then the bottom 3 are people I would be comfortable voting today

Update here: I'm swapping Blue/Delta, and also chao/Brian. I think I'm only interested in a brz/Brian lim but that could change depending on what Andante's catch up looks like today

[Black]

I realize now that I handled it all really poorly. I'm not proud of it anymore.

I disagree fwiw. I think the line of questioning flowed pretty naturally with the thread until Delta made a big deal of it all

[Black]

I think until a new person comes in for that slot, pressure there is perhaps not being applied in the best place.

Probably...but I also just think the slot is scum

[Black]

What would it take for you to rejoin the Brian vote?

Not much since brz is getting replaced

VOTE: Brian

[Black]

I usually unvote a replacement. I think brz is scum but I also think Brian might be and plus you asked me to rejoin the wagon. Kinda rude to scumread me afterward for it, especially since you are so gung-ho about using our votes and whatnot

[Black]

I'm not going to be around much today but I was able to skim the last few pages

Hi kawaii! Are you a wolf?

Brian says there's no scum on his wagon

Mala feels a little different and doesn't like the Brian wagon

Delta is pushing anything and everything. Seems kinda aggro townie to me

Andante said she would catch up yesterday but then said she's not reading the thread and doesn't have any thoughts so I guess that's not happening
(Sorry about your stressful week :/)

I think that's the noteworthy stuff but I might have missed something

[Black]

Back into the flow of things. Going to post a catch up now

[Black]

Kawaii enters with 411 and 412 and basically says nothing. Delta and python are quick to point this out and I agree with them that kawaii's entrance left more to be desired

Kawaii expresses an Andante and Black TR in his next post - no real issues here

Kawaii follows this up with a flurry of posts that seem to align with his usual catch up style: post live reactions to the thread as he reads through. I like his Blue TR

Brian hasn't done anything since he got wagoned. He's just kinda posting one sentence and then leaving for awhile

429 - python, my SR on Andante seems to be a playstyle thing and I mentioned earlier I want to look back at her old games to get a better idea of how she plays as town/scum. I probably should have moved her closer to the middle in that updated reads list you quoted but I was more concerned with moving the people around that were doing stuff (Brian, chao, Blue, Delta)

Kawaii's 430 gives me town feels

432 - I'm sorry mala :\

-----

So after reading I'm pretty happy with kawaii's content since replacing. I was really hoping to get more from Andante this weekend with her promised catch up. I expected more from Brian in general. He doesn't seem like he's trying to solve much at all

@Andante can we get a reads list from you?

[Black]

I don't think scum are on my wagon right now.

Who do you think the wolves are rn?

[Black]

@Delta
@python

Can I get a reads list from you two?

[Black]

Your "everyone else" category is just mala, Blue, and chao. Would you say you SR these players?

(hope your first day goes well!)

[Black]

Ok, gotcha. And then the slots above that (starting with Andante) are your TRs. I'm following now

[Black]

@Delta I'm curious why you TR python and Andante. In python's case you originally said you were unsure about them because you agree with everything they say. That seems like a weird read to me

In Andante's case it seems like you have had several issues with her posts and there have been multiple things you've pointed out that you don't like, but I'm not seeing any TRs, so why is she so high up on your list?

[Black]

In Andante's case it seems like you have had several issues with her posts and there have been multiple things you've pointed out that you don't like, but I'm not seeing any TRs, so why is she so high up on your list?

oooh could this be scum TMIing me town? I might need to revisit my read there... but ehhh brian is a fine lim for today

This is possible but for me to think this I would have to think you are town, which I'm still not sure about

Something feels off about python but I can't quite pin point it. Maybe it's all the emojis? Sounds crazy but they didn't use any emojis when they were town in our other game. This game they have used like six or seven laughing emojis. Could it be a nervous tick as wolf or am I tinfoiling?

[Black]

Like at this point in our other game Python was completely serious and not really cracking jokes at all. They were tunneling and calling people out left and right. I'm not getting those same vibes here. It almost feels like they are playing more loose and are less concerned about who the wolf team might be. That could be AI for him but I'm not sure. I guess I'll throw more work on my pile and read an old scum game of theirs along with Andante's

[Black]

Hmmm. Ok...

[Black]

I don't read into meta, I think it's pointless and as a playstyle decision I'll die on this hill.

Using meta for to make a read tends to be pretty shit yes, but I will die on the hill that using meta to null a read is good

Do you SR my comment about you?

[Black]

Other way around, I'm trying to null what I see as a townslip

Well I'm not sure if it means anything coming from me but I think I'm capable of making that post as wolf or town. I definitely don't consider it a "townslip"

[Black]

Python, there's something off about you this game but I just can't figure out what it is yet. Maybe it's just a matter of who is fronting. Either way it's not really enough for me to SR you and I can't really do anything about it until I figure out what is giving me this feeling

[Black]

(also if that's not a townslip then Black's really gonna be a pain to sort, ugh)

Nah, I think people are doing a good job at sorting me for once. I seem to be widely TR and even though that happens when I'm wolf, y'all are actually right this time lol

[Black]

I'm used to Python solving, theorizing, breaking the game down mechanically into deductive possibilities, in this Python feels internally focused vs. externally focused

I agree with you here but where are you drawing your past experiences with python from? Have y'all played together?

[Black]

Ongoing game, I'll get back to you when it's done

I see. And really it's Kawaii that should get back to me here. I don't really need to hear your own meta case on yourself

[Black]

Andante is either limbait or scum and either way I think it's a good idea to remove them from the game in D2 before any chance of getting close to a Lim or Lose situation.

This seems like a scum slip to me. Brian was Delta's biggest SR but this post reads like he knew Brian was going to flip town

Also Delta you never answered my questions about your reads list. Let me find them

[Black]

@Delta

@Delta I'm curious why you TR python and Andante. In python's case you originally said you were unsure about them because you agree with everything they say. That seems like a weird read to me

In Andante's case it seems like you have had several issues with her posts and there have been multiple things you've pointed out that you don't like, but I'm not seeing any TRs, so why is she so high up on your list?

[Black]

The python kill was probably because they were the most TR player in the game. Looking back over their posts they were pretty suspect of chao and Andante fwiw

I think one of {Delta; Andante} is scum but I doubt it's both of them

Blue is my highest TR but I've been known to highly TR scum before (see Hollowed Knight)

We're going to have to lock in today

[Black]

VOTE: Delta

I'm hoping you can answer my question above, and while you're at it I think you should elaborate on this list like you said you would

Bear with - I've started my first day at work (that jobberino I got last game with you ey) so will be a few hours before I can get a comprehensive list to you with justifications and the like.

Short-term:

Town

Me
Black (Dangerous!)
Python
Kawaii
Andante
Everyone else
Brian

Scum

[Black]

I think Delta might be a wolf here

Also I get bad vibes from Andante because of the pretty vocal appeal to emotion over the course of D1 so far

It doesn't make any sense for you to TR Andante this game based on everything you've said. You didn't like her AtE originally and there were 2 other posts of hers you didn't like. The only way you TR her is if you know she's town

I also don't find the fact that you only scumread one person (Brian) very characteristic of your town play. Normally by this point in the game you have more than one scumread. It's super easy for wolf to throw out town and null reads and I don't find it a coincidence that your only scumread turned out to be town

Your position on Andante feels like it comes from a wolf and you are clearly posturing yourself and setting up your defense once she flips town

You've been riding the fence on almost every opinion you've had this game. Town!Delta is more definitive in his opinions and stances even when he is wrong. Here...you seem too cautious and afraid to be wrong. That is more likely to come from a wolf

I think if you flip wolf then your buddy is somewhere in the group you lumped together in the "everyone else" category: {mala; Blue; chao}

[Black]

My main case is your weird TR on Andante and your fence riding. My meta points are supporting arguments

If you want to talk about knowing someone is town:

I was speaking in a scenario where you are scum

Your vote really needs to come away from me and go on Andante here.

I like my vote where it is for now

[Black]

I don't think there's any good reason as it stands to keep Andante in the game (nowt personal) - but to run at me?

I don't know why you're acting like you've got this massive solve when your whole argument disregards how horrendous that hammer was.

If Andante is town then I think that's enough reason to keep her around. You thinking otherwise is scummy tbh

Re: hammer - I've seen townies do hammers like that. It's not AI

[Black]

I'm struggling to recall why I settled on my pre-hammer Andante read. I think that it's partially succumbing to a bit of AtE in hindsight which I let throughy guard.

I'll respond to your other comments later tonight when I'm at home but can you explain what you mean by the above quote? I don't think I'm understanding it properly

[Black]

my slight town lean was come from vibes that the AtE was genuine and not forced.

I just don't think I buy this. You scumread her for using AtE all D1 and expressed no townreads on her whatsoever. It doesn't make sense for you to suddenly townread her for the AtE alone

[Black]

To clarify, I am hardclaiming pr. whatup my friends! That's all you get, but I really don't feel like spending half the day fighting SRs so bam! I'm town, go from there, do your solvey stuff

This could definitely be a lie but I'm not willing to believe that atm

[Black]

Black is definitely town. I like her. I sheep her today!

Do you think Delta is a wolf?

[Black]

Oh ignore that last comment, I missed your 512

[Black]

I think Delta is scum who thought I'd be a hella easy push here, basically why he came in with walls going at me. like, his focus seems like it was on going after me "because I was clearly scum who hammered the person I was SRing" rather than finding scum.

Yeah this is what I'm thinking. He clearly postured himself to push you here at the end of D1, and he's justifying his push by saying you should be limmed regardless of your alignment

[Black]

delta +Kawaii?

Could be, but I still kinda TR kawaii. I agree with python though that kawaii is pretty hard to read

I wouldn't rule out mala or chao here. Maybe even Blue but that might be me being paranoid about my townreads usually being scum XD

I'm also not ruling out Delta being town here, or you lying, fwiw

[Black]

Delta, that vote implies you think I'm scum with Andante

I don't believe that you actually believe that

You're cracking under pressure here

[Black]

I want to make it clear that I am in no way interested in limming anyone right now. I have a feeling about Delta but of course I could be wrong. We definitely need to hear from everyone else and if I could choose we wouldn't end day until much closer to the deadline

[Black]

You seemed to know before the claim that Andante was town and I believe I caught a slip in an earlier post which I quoted.

There was no slip. You can read the comment and pretty clearly see I was talking from a POV of you being scum

[Black]

Delta this is all very OMGUS from you. I was your top TR until I shared my suspicion of you. This reaction from you doesn't look good at all imo

[Black]

[invite]Black[/invite]

Ooo where are we going?!

[Black]

Hmmmm. TBD I suppose

I'll be around some tonight but I probably won't have much to add until mala/blue/chao/kawaii get here

[Black]

Where’s my invite

You have to help us win first

[Black]

Need a bit more from you than that, Mala

I feel like chao left more to be desired too. If chao is wolf here then it's super easy to say Andante's hammer was townie

@chao, mala - what are you opinions on me vs. Delta?

[Black]

we lim one of me, black, delta, they flip town,

Delta, Black, can we PLEASE just assume we're all town for now and deal with the other 4

I don't understand this stance on Delta immediately after you say you think he's scum

[Black]

Blue, I can see reasons for her to roleclaim and not roleclaim. Is clearing her more important than outting what setup we are in and revealing how vulnerable Andante is?

[Black]

If she's telling the truth, her claiming can only be harmful to the town. But we won't know if she's telling the truth unless she role claims...

[Black]

This clears Andante right? We're either in B1 or B2 and she couldn't claim this as scum without potentially being countered. She's right that the other PR needs to stay hush hush

[Black]

what about it? I explained it? there's literally a pool of people hard to read? you don't agree? what happens if your sr on delta is wrong? TOWN!YOU can accurately sort in the others?

Assuming your scumread is town so you can sort the other players is an odd strategy and I'm not following your thought process here. I'm not saying you need to tunnel him but why would you assume he's town?

[Black]

Like if you think Delta might be scum wouldn't it make more sense to try to find associatives to confirm that and also look for a potential partner instead of just assuming he's town?

[Black]

Sorry, Andante. I was out of line.

UNVOTE: Andante

What are your thoughts on Delta, chao, and mala?

[Black]

I don't think his progression Today could have come from scum

Can you elaborate?

[Black]

I don't think his progression Today could have come from scum

Can you elaborate?

I'm talking about the 180º he did from accusing Andante to defending Andante against me, trying to stop Andante from full claiming. I think Scum!Delta would instead let Andante claim, and then go after me. He could make the argument that he was simply not online before that.

What's your reason for thinking scum Delta would do this? Wolves try to act as townie as possible and it's textbook townie to keep the PR from claiming. It wouldn't make sense for scum!Delta to keep pushing Andante after the claim and defending the PR/discouraging them from giving more info is an easy position for a wolf to take. I did it as scum in my last newbie game

[Black]

I don't think this progression from Delta clears him at all

[Black]

@Delta - what are your thoughts on Blue? Is he still null to you?

[Black]

There wasn't too much to gain by stopping Andante's claim

I disagree. It definitely earned him town points in your eyes, to the point where you don't even think he could be a wolf anymore. I'd say he gained a lot from that position if he's a wolf here wouldn't you?

[Black]

I can't think of any reason for Andante's N1 target to confirm

[Black]

Wait I worded that wrong. I can't think of any reason for them

NOT

to confirm

[Black]

who do you think is scum?

This is a good question mala

[Black]

I'm on holidays right now and thus have less time to access the forum.
Currently I'm leaning towards Delta, Andante and Mala to be town aligned as they seem to be active scumhunting and questioning everything. With that said, I still think KawaiiKame to be most surely scum, meanwhile Black and Blue seem swingy to me, yet leaning scum.

You're going to have to do better than that

You really TR Andante and mala for active scumhunting and questioning everything? I need you to explain this read. Provide examples

Why is Kawaii your top SR? Paint me a picture and show me how you reached this conclusion

Why are Blue and I "swingy" leaning scum?

I expect your next post to be longer than a paragraph and I want you to elaborate on all of your reads

[Black]

@Black: Your vote is still on me. Have you read my #607 on Blue and potential teams?

I'd like to hear your and Andante's thoughts on this.

I saw 607 but I haven't read it yet. I logged on and saw Chao's post and it bugged me

I won't be around much this weekend but I'll make sure to read it and comment when I have time

[Black]

I liked chao’s post tbh why are you 2 hating chao/blue’s posts so much, like, it feels like yall are just demanding they’re professional scumhunters

Idk why you think this. I just wanted chao to explain the reasons behind his reads. That's not too much to ask for, and look, he did it. So you're welcome

[Black]

I know I'm not being much of help to the town, but as I said, I tend to get lost on your posts, lads and lasses

As long as you're posting reasons behind your reads and positions then you're doing fine. I appreciate you for elaborating here

[Black]

@Delta, I like your 607 and it feels like you are trying to solve, but I'm not sold on Blue being scum. He's much closer to the middle for me than on D1 but I think he still leans town. I don't mind his response to your questioning following 607

I think one of mala/chao is more likely to be scum than Blue tbh

Happy to see kawaii here finally

[Black]

Kawaii what are your thoughts on Delta?

[Black]

I want to say from python's reads, scum is in delta/black/kawaii, and that's a 2/3.

most were TRing black day 1 right? why did the universal TR not die? and then Black kinda just is lurking now as I'm pushing random silent town...

Python was equally as townread as me if not more imo. And idk what you mean by me lurking? I've been one of the most active people. I'm just not here much on weekends and won't be able to contribute much until Monday

I don't mind your lim pool but if I take myself out then that makes the solve Delta/Kawaii. Definitely possible

[Black]

No one should be rushing to lim anyone rn. Kawaii especially. Remember when you lost by voting too fast in our other Newbie? I feel like you would have learned your lesson but you seem even more eager to rush this. Your voting patterns mixed with intermittent content feels bad

[Black]

No one should be rushing to lim anyone rn. Kawaii especially. Remember when you lost by voting too fast in our other Newbie? I feel like you would have learned your lesson but you seem even more eager to rush this. Your voting patterns mixed with intermittent content feels bad

I havent voted…….?

I wasn't talking about you! That was mainly to Kawaii

[Black]

I actually think kawaii might be scum here

I'm still leaning town on Blue

@Delta would you be interested in voting kawaii today?

[Black]

VOTE: kawaii

[Black]

I've TRed him for most of the game and I don't think your 607 is very convincing. I actually think his response to Andante's claim probably comes from skeptical town because I had a similar reaction at first. I think it's less likely that
a wolf openly asks for a role claim like that. And honestly I think the wolves would handle it more like you and kawaii did where you attack the guy asking about the claim

[Black]

Delta, can you outline why you think kawaii is scummy?

[Black]

I don't really know how I feel about Kawaii.
I don't know if it's a playstyle change or an alignment switch b/c i only have played with town!kawaii, but something is off.

I agree. And the fact that brz felt kinda scummy makes me feel even worse about this slot

[Black]

I think the two wolves are in {Delta; kawaii; mala}

[Black]

I can agree with mala that something feels off about kawaii and still think she could be a wolf XD

[Black]

I can see black+mala team...

I'd be down to vote mala if you want to go that route

[Black]

This doesn't feel right at all.

I'm now more down for a Black lim than I am a Kawaii one. That interaction feels awful and honestly off the back of vibes it just reeks.

You didn't answer my question. Why do you think kawaii is scummy?

[Black]

Also I don't know what's so bad about my Andante interaction?

[Black]

UNVOTE:

I'm going to spent some time today looking over the game

[Black]

I’m ok with a kawaii elim

VOTE: kawaii

As much as I don’t like blue, i think at least Between both will flip scum somewhere

This vote feels scummy to me. You go from "something feels off about kawaii" to voting for him over your top SR. I think you realized there wasn't enough support for a Blue lim so you repositioned on the wagon more likely to end the day

[Black]

You were hoping for this weren't you:

I'll hammer a Kawaii wagon, but I won't just drop my case on Blue as it stands.

Both Delta and mala have issues with Kawaii's activity but other than that neither of them have expressed many other reasons why Kawaii might be scum. Yet both of them are willing to lim there over Blue who they scumread for more than just activity level and posts that feel off

I think it might Delta/mala here tbh

[Black]

Um I'm not sure what you're confused about. I think you might be a wolf that is voting for kawaii opportunistically

[Black]

I decided to look back at mala/Delta interactions to either strengthen my theorysolve or pick it apart. This pair is very likely imo

There's only one interaction between mala and Wiz (Delta's replacee):

I like this response tho by Wiz. Seems geniue.

Wiz leaves mala out of his readslist in 172. She hadn't posted yet and Wiz prefaced this list by saying he was going through ISOs, but I find it a little weird that he never brought up her inactivity or even responded to Brian's suspicions of her absence. I find it interesting that he scumreads Brian in this list after Brian SRs both Wiz and mala

Delta replaces. I find 299 really weird here in regards to mala/Brian. In this post Delta says that the mala/Brian interaction feels forced and contrived, but he only considers the possibilities of it being SvT or TvT. Wouldn't it make sense to consider SvS here since that's what you were hinting at in the post? Delta leaving out this option feels like he doesn't want to cast shade on mala any more than a sprinkle of distancing.

The next two posts by mala/Delta feel forced and it doesn't go anywhere:

I think in the same aspect that you are pushing Blue you should also be using the same exact thing against me. I don't think I have much more content that blue does. So I don't understand why you are going after Blue, but not at me, as well.

I disagree Mala, I think I have an understanding of who you have SR's on or misgivings about - I don't have any from Blue because they're voting Chao whilst also 'Townreading [his] latest developments' in #313.

To be honest the only critique I could offer is that you aren't using your vote, but I expect that would change over the next day or so as you get acclimated to the game like myself.

Mala makes a good point and Delta brushes it off by saying he doesn't consider Mala's activity sus because he has an understanding of who she SRs. Really? Mala had only SR Brian up to this point. Blue had opinions on chao, Wiz, Brian, and brz. I'm not buying this from Delta at all. And like I said this goes absolutely no where...both mala and Delta drop this like it was all for theatre

Delta drops a reads list in 447 and lumps mala in the "Everyone else" category. Earlier I had the theory that if Delta is wolf then his buddy is in this category

Delta responds

really

poorly to my suspicions of him, even voting for me in 522 despite me being one of his top TRs. It's an OMGUS reaction and is very telling imo

Delta acknowledges mala's inactivity in 558 but still refuses to do anything about it. Delta has no issues with pressure voting people that are way less active than him but for some reason he has danced around mala all game instead of pushing her to contribute

Delta's 607 is a big fence-riding position on mala ("or is mala just lurk!town?") and it should be noted that mala never responds to this at all. This just feels like distancing

I think I want to vote one of these two today

[Black]

I'm going to take some time to look at other possible teams but this is my leading solve atm

[Black]

@Delta whenever you check in today I would like responses to #710 and #711

[Black]

@mod: can we get a chao prod? It's been 3 days

[Black]

Yeah...I just have a feeling Delta is trying to go from wagon to wagon until the other PR claims

You can't say you would rather lim Blue and me over kawaii and then be ok hammering kawaii. That is a position only a wolf would take here

VOTE: Delta

Also it's really odd that Delta saw mala's vote but not my unvote right after. I have a feeling they coordinated this Kawaii lim in the PT. Delta came in knowing mala was going to put kawaii at e-1 and announced his hammer without realizing kawaii is no longer at E-1

[Black]

They didn't say you have failed. They said it appears that you flat-out don't care about finding scum.

This is backed up by the fact that the only person you're questioning at the moment is an unCC'd town PR, and I get the sense that your only instinct is to follow them.

You aren't scum hunting, you're still just kind of wafting through the day, dare I say.

Why does this not apply to mala? She has spent most of D2 questioning Andante and her scum hunting is on the level of Blue's, if not lower

Only your wolfmate would get a pass here

[Black]

That would also in my mind cast doubt on the validity of Andante's claim, but in isolation I'm more comfortable now applying pressure here:

VOTE: Black

What pressure were you even trying to apply with this OMGUS vote?? I was one of the most active players at this time. I guarantee this was pressure to get me to claim, just like you did with Andante, Blue, and now Kawaii...

[Black]

Sounds like someone else I know

[Black]

This doesn't feel right at all.

I'm now more down for a Black lim than I am a Kawaii one. That interaction feels awful and honestly off the back of vibes it just reeks.

Town doesn't take this stance and then declare intent to hammer Kawaii the very next day. If you think Blue and I are scummier than kawaii then town!Delta pushes those two. He doesn't take the opportunistic route and hammer Kawaii. This is wolf behavior

I encourage everyone that is TRing Delta to reconsider. He's doing a great job of pretending to solve but you should take it from someone who has this exact playstyle as wolf: he's fooling you all

[Black]

I'm not calling you a liar, but saying you don't remember posting that isn't going to cut it for me

[Black]

@andante I think you should get out of your Black tunnel for a split second and take a deeper look at Delta. He gave that weird informed TR of you D1 after scumreading you all throughout, and now he's willing to hammer his 3rd lim option

@Blue, @Kawaii I think you both are probably town and I need your support

@mala if you aren't wolves with Delta then I think you should vote here with me

[Black]

VOTE: mala

E-2

Ideally we don't flip this until Blue gets back tomorrow and we get more from kawaii/chao

I'm curious how Delta feels about a mala lim

[Black]

I genuinely hate how Andante is so certain about Kawaii

Wolves are more likely to get really frustrated with this. Wolves need as many people in the lim pool as possible to avoid getting cornered in 5p or 3p. Sure, town has reasons to not like this behavior too, but to "genuinely hate" it? That is more likely a wolf perspective

[Black]

I don't think your scumhunting is all that great tbh. D1 you had one scumread (Brian) and he flipped town. D2 kicked off by you pressuring the PR which forced a claim from her, and then you started tunneling Blue. More recently you said you were ok with my lim over Kawaii and then declared intent to hammer Kawaii (even though you prefer Blue?)

So if I'm scum here I'm not finding you as a threat at all

I do see why town!Delta would be frustrated with Andante's behavior but I think wolf!Delta cares just a little more about that

[Black]

Also I want to make it clear that I don't think kawaii is townie because Andante said so. I don't think kawaii makes sense as a partner to you or mala, my two main scumreads

[Black]

Re: Kawaii - you TR him D1. Also you basically only SR him now based on his activity and lack of scumhunting. You call it "anti-town". Do you not remember having this exact read on Kawaii in our Booza game? You were wrong then too

I get the feeling that Black is suddenly flailing and it's really, really weird. On the one hand, it's really erratic and suggests a lack of conviction in their reads

There is a lack of conviction in my reads. I'm not fully confident in them

(Needs clarification: I don't know if Andante still is lock-town'd on Black)

Of course I'm not lock-town. She was literally just voting for me and agreed with you last night that I could be scum

But I really don't like how suddenly Black turned to theorising and compiling a case against me only to vote for Mala when there was a lack of momentum. It feels too easy.

I think you are both scum and I've said multiple times I want to vote one of you today. If Andante would prefer to go mala first then I'm on board with that

[Black]

I really don't see town!Delta scumreading Kawaii for his activity level/solving, knowing he flakes out as town sometimes, and then turn around and give mala a pass for her's

[Black]

You gave mala a pass in 338 and you're doing it again here D2. Meanwhile you've gone after or called out every other player that isn't doing much. Why not mala? You even said her inactivity could be considered lurk!town but you're not giving that same treatment to the other lurkers. Why would you not assume that for kawaii when you just recently played in a game where he was lurk!town?

[Black]

I'm not flailing at all, but ok

Just promise me you lim Delta after you mislim me D3

[Black]

If Delta/mala is the solve, this is how it should play out:

Lim mala today
Delta NKs either Andante or whoever they think the other PR is
That leaves: Me, PR, chao, Blue, Delta
Lim me D3
Delta NKs someone
That leaves: Delta, Blue, Chao

We can still win with this route but it'll be close. I'm ok with this as long as the thread agrees to lim Delta when I flip town

[Black]

Andante you don't even realize Delta is asking you if I'm locktown because he's trying to decide who he should kill tonight. Why else would you think he'd be so obsessed with you locktowning everyone? He wants to see if he and mala stand a chance here and they have to kill off people you locktown in order to do so

[Black]

Fine.

VOTE: delta

Happy now Black?

Depends. Do you think Delta is scummier than Blue or are you just voting there because I asked?

[Black]

Both

This is the first time you've given a read on Delta unless I'm mistaken

[Black]

Both

This is the first time you've given a read on Delta unless I'm mistaken

How can I fix ur broken heart

Tell me why you think Delta is scummy all of the sudden

[Black]

You just said he was scummier than Blue?

[Black]

It's pretty convenient of you to suddenly SR Delta and say you're not sold on scum!me right as I'm pairing you two together and Andante is pairing me and you together

[Black]

it’s literally black/mala

Are you ok with my plan in 749? I left kawaii out by accident but it still reads the same if we plug him into the spot labeled "PR"

[Black]

I don't think it's a given you die tonight Andante. The wolves could have rolecopped the other PR N1, or they could just avoid hitting you all together since the other PR is more important to kill. I'm not sure but it's definitely not a forgone conclusion that you're not here D3

And if you read my post I said that I want the thread to agree to this plan, not just you

[Black]

I have faith that Blue will return tomorrow IRL because he said he would be back Wednesday. Kawaii will either start to contribute or be replaced. Town still has a strong chance to win here but I need everyone to be on board with limming Delta if I flip town

[Black]

I'm speaking from the POV that my lim tomorrow is not set in stone

[Black]

If I flip scum then obviously no one is voting Delta the next day

[Black]

I'm literally telling you that you can flip me before Delta if you want and you just want to point out my word choice

You are definitely frustrating to play with

Just follow my plan and we win. Unless one of chao, kawaii, or Blue is deepwolfing

[Black]

That's the best vote scum!mala could make rn so that doesn't surprise me. You seem desperate though. Probably because wolves lose if we follow my plan?

[Black]

If I was scum I’d probably wouldn’t let myself get run up as easily

I mean you caved and voted Delta, then voted me. It definitely feels like you aren't going down without a fight

Why is Delta scummier than Blue btw?

[Black]

Sorry for the lack of activity lads and lasses. I'm on a trip to New Orleans until Friday, I thought I could manage, yet I failed miserably today at it. I read the recent pages over, and I think we're kind of running in circles. I'm still comfortable voting Kawaii though.

That's ok...life happens. If you feel like you don't have time though you can always ask to be replaced

Kawaii hasn't been on the site in 3 days and Blue said he'd be back today

We really need more from these slots

[Black]

mala is just scum here

I’m ok with a kawaii elim

VOTE: kawaii

As much as I don’t like blue, i think at least Between both will flip scum somewhere

This was opportunistic. A Blue lim wasn't going to happen with Andante and I townreading him so she switched her vote to kawaii

The thing that bothers me about this post is she later reveals that she thinks Delta is scummier than Blue but she has avoiding talking about the Delta slot for like 90% of the game. The one interaction they had on D1 felt forced and didn't go anywhere

She then votes for Delta after realizing the kawaii lim probably won't go through either. This vote felt survivalistic and distance-y. I asked her about it and that's where she said Delta is scummier than Blue. She can't expand on this read so she brushes it off by saying it's more PoE than anything

Now she's voting me (kinda OMGUS btw) because that's really the only way she survives today. I'm sure her buddy Delta will come along and vote me too, and then we will be in a 2v2 stalemate waiting for Blue/kawaii/chao to break it

[Black]

@Blue - when you get here I encourage you to look over my arguments regarding Delta/mala and vote with me here