Newbie 2114: Life Imitates Art...in Memes! -- End

[Elpis]

Sorry for the late reply! I think my email settings might be not working properly, so I just saw the start--

I guess I'd agree with Dragon about Aero being very buddy, but it's also a newbie game, so I understand the desire to be friendly

VOTE: Aeronaut

[Elpis]

I don't feel confident about it, but it's RVS, yeah? It's my first game so I'm still trying to pick up on just how low reason the first round votes should be

[Elpis]

Is there a way to unvote and change your vote, actually? I don't love the silent swap to voting against Aero the moment they were asked to be involved in discussion

[Elpis]

Honestly, it feels like Ircher did express a lot of his views on past posts in at least simple form; enough to show that he's involved. In addition, despite your criticisms, he doesn't seem to be taking an easy route to put another vote against you, Aero, despite I *think* you having quite a few currently, which to me seems like a pretty definitive show of confidence that he isn't just trying to get kill votes happening against anyone who they think is suspicious of them.

This is assuming my knowledge on first night voting **does** lead to someone being killed, which I would appreciate being corrected on if that's not the case

[Elpis]

i think my trs are
dragon as top town - lining up with meta, they do feel a bit awkward in his first post i agree but that's mirroring his play in our other newbie and they feel very towny
aero - i like him and his play SO FUCKING MUCH he has good takes on play etc etc maybe this might just be personal bias but oh well
elpis - not sure why they're so high, but mostly just because of the vibes. i like the way they post, it seems like it's coming from a towny perspective. i also can't tell if their profile picture is undertale or just pixel art elpis if you see this please clarify because i'm like,, going insane of it istg
maestro - lower than aero and elpis because i haven't seen much of their play yet, but i like the way they post too. maybe i'll come back on this later

It's undertale inspired pixel art

As for TRs (Town reads, I am assuming)
I feel pretty null about dragon? I don't quite know the meta, but they did have a somewhat odd post?
Aero I feel mildly suspicious of, but I also think that might just be a sense of paranoia, I don't honestly think they've done anything to deserve those feelings.
patchwork feels very towny, I feel like it'd surprise me if they were scum, maybe also just vibes though.
maestro originally was my top scum thought, but after doing some rereading, I feel decidedly neutral.
Ircher, while not the most polite in their responses, was relatively succinct in their thoughts, and didn't lend towards action that could've gotten someone killed, I think. maybe slightly above null.


bewolkt and kawaii are also null for me, hoping they post some more

[Elpis]

i think my trs are
dragon as top town - lining up with meta, they do feel a bit awkward in his first post i agree but that's mirroring his play in our other newbie and they feel very towny
aero - i like him and his play SO FUCKING MUCH he has good takes on play etc etc maybe this might just be personal bias but oh well
elpis - not sure why they're so high, but mostly just because of the vibes. i like the way they post, it seems like it's coming from a towny perspective. i also can't tell if their profile picture is undertale or just pixel art elpis if you see this please clarify because i'm like,, going insane of it istg
maestro - lower than aero and elpis because i haven't seen much of their play yet, but i like the way they post too. maybe i'll come back on this later

It's undertale inspired pixel art

As for TRs (Town reads, I am assuming)
I feel pretty null about dragon? I don't quite know the meta, but they did have a somewhat odd post?
Aero I feel mildly suspicious of, but I also think that might just be a sense of paranoia, I don't honestly think they've done anything to deserve those feelings.
patchwork feels very towny, I feel like it'd surprise me if they were scum, maybe also just vibes though.
maestro originally was my top scum thought, but after doing some rereading, I feel decidedly neutral.
Ircher, while not the most polite in their responses, was relatively succinct in their thoughts, and didn't lend towards action that could've gotten someone killed, I think. maybe slightly above null.


bewolkt and kawaii are also null for me, hoping they post some more

Reagrding my odd post: I was making an intentionally odd post to get reactions, because I like getting good content out of people early rather than having to wait for it.

As to the rest of your readlist: so if I'm understanding you correctly, everyone is neutral in your eyes right now except Patch? Or I guess you suspect Aero but think it's an invalid suspicion?

I would say Aero is actually a little more suspicious after what Aureal has said, and Maestro and Ircher are folks I want to give more time to talk, otherwise yes, accurate.

[Elpis]

whew, just opened the site for today, give me some time to catch up and read and respond where I can/should

[Elpis]

The only one that has changed slightly for me is Elpis. I went back to take a read, and I do feel like they are fence sitting a bit more than I'd like. I guess now that I'm saying it though, I get being nervous as a newbie and not wanting to make too big of an impact right away. I just would like to see more hard stances from them.

I tend to be pretty neutral a lot when it comes to mafia games, because as a person in the real world, I typically give benefit of the doubt a little too often, and I also sometimes tend to focus more on people being arrogant and brash with their tone, as opposed to the content of it sometimes--

for example, if I was going just off of my feelings alone, I would want to vote Maestro immediately, because his general sardonic candor came off terribly and made me want him to be scum. HOWEVER, I don't think tone alone should be what I'm making judgements on, and so it's taking me some time to form assessments that feel valid. Also, I'm trying to make an extra effort to not just bandwagon, as I know I tend to be swayed easily by the assessments of others. It's all a learning process for me, especially in this forum environment where there's a lot more time, and a lot less of the in-person social pressure of people inexperienced going, "THIS GUY SAID SOMETHING MILDLY OFF TONE, EVERYONE PILE ON AND GET EM OUTTA HERE", you know?

Still reading down the missed posts, but this is a start

[Elpis]

When scum are called out, is it easier to stay quiet or to risk coming back and making it worse? Inactivity is NAI, but inactivity while being wagoned does not help his case to me.

It's really too early to be calling anyone out for 'inactivity' too. There's official prod timers to deal with inactivity, it seems reasonably effective. If someone's just making low content posts to duck prods, that's something to evaluate as a trend over time, not one day.

The only one that has changed slightly for me is Elpis. I went back to take a read, and I do feel like they are fence sitting a bit more than I'd like. I guess now that I'm saying it though, I get being nervous as a newbie and not wanting to make too big of an impact right away. I just would like to see more hard stances from them.

I did think her first post was a bit awkward and thought about saying something to that effect before, then noticed that the vote on you there was the third and wondered if Elpis was trying to do something with that.

Elpis, did you realize that you were putting a third vote on Aeronaut with that post?

I did realize I was doing this, but at the time, I was actually totally unaware that the vote limit was 5 and then things would immediately end. If I'm completely honest, the vote was moreso intended to be an expression of current suspicion, and not actually a definitive, "I want this person dead and gone" thing. I'm recognizing now that it shouldn't be used in that manner, and I will revoke it for now, especially with how close things have gotten to hammering.

UNVOTE:

[Elpis]

I also do want to update--

Aureal feels exceptionally towny, I don't think there would be so much criticism or assessment of people's actions leading to possible early hammers if there wasn't a desire to make absolute certain when people are voted out, that they are scum. I appreciate that.

[Elpis]

Busy couple nights, sorry for not posting too much--

I see that folks have been asking me to be more open with my thoughts, which is strange to me because I feel like I've expressed them as they've come to me. I think Aureal is very towny, I have mixed messages about Aero, but currently feel more of a null/mild town lean. There's a lot of discussion going on and attacking of minutia, but like-- there are SO few actual points to really call out on as being incredibly scummy, I feel. I have absolutely no strong feelings to really go off of.

I assume the vote against me by Bewolkt was just to push me to talk more, but truly my thoughts are not much to really post on as things currently stand. I don't have strong scum feelings towards anyone, and my only confident vibe is that Aureal is not scum.

[Elpis]

I would also agree about the assessment that kawaii and bewolkt have been moderately lurky, but I would understand that because, again, there's very little to actually go off of aside from aero acknowledging a hammer and not fixing it, maestro being a bit prickly to deal with, and ircher having an opinion that at this point seems to be relatively understood.

[Elpis]

If anyone would like my thoughts of anything, do feel free to ask and I'll try to consolidate, but as it currently stands, I am unsure how to comment further on the current lineup we've got, and I can't say I've got the experience yet to truly understand a good way to uhh, I think the term was "scumhunt" or something?

[Elpis]

If anyone would like my thoughts of anything, do feel free to ask and I'll try to consolidate, but as it currently stands, I am unsure how to comment further on the current lineup we've got, and I can't say I've got the experience yet to truly understand a good way to uhh, I think the term was "scumhunt" or something?

IDK guys, this post kinda feels like Elpis is trying to overplay how newbie they are. Like the thing about not knowing what scumhunting is called? For real?
But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Elpis, how much experience do you have with Mafia and with similar games?
And have you read the explanation of what the RVS is good for? Because voting and wagoning are designed to generate reads. Doing them and observing others' reactions is a good way to find out who is scum and who is town. Would you like to give it a go?
Until you do, I will VOTE: Elpis

I was just too lazy to look up the specific terminology, I couldn't recall if it was directly labeled scumhunting

I have experience with in person werewolf games, but not mafia specifically as often, and I've never been in a mafia game where they were called "scum". I do realize now though reading my original post that what I said sounded *painfully* fake and acting, when in reality I just didn't want to open up the glossary again. I certainly understand what the concept of scumhunting is.

I just read up a bit more on RVS, and I think I understand a bit more about it now. It seems like it'd be a good idea to toss a vote on Kawaii for the sake of having them express a bit more about their thoughts on the game. VOTE: Kawaii

[Elpis]

That's 3 votes on Kawaii I think, so preferrably let's not add a fourth.

[Elpis]

Ah, just kidding, it's two, my browser hadn't updated

[Elpis]

Wait, no. Patchwork, Dragon, and I. That's 3, right?

[Elpis]

Okay people, let's do some thinking and talking about it!

Ircher link me a relatively-recent scum game of yours please - if you don’t or if you’re all “conservative” in your next post I’ll just go find one myself and consider it a scumclaim

For any Newbies wondering, the post somebody made about it being proTown to post more and not be “conservative” with one’s thoughts is 100% apt and while I’m not ever advocating for “forcing” others to play like me… as Aero said it makes you seem like scum (and kinda a butthead) so I feel no qualms voting you for

those

reasons and encourage you to be like… an asset to us all instead of an impediment?

That’s what it comes down to

If you think you can solve the game all by yourself, or just by giving Town the bear minimum amt of insight into your thoughts or motivations… yeah you can eat a hammer vote today for that if nothin changes, I think lol it’s as good a reason as any

Can I vote you too? I want to vote you too. This is so lazy. Is that really what you want to teach newbies, to just eliminate people who play a way you don't like dealing with? Great way to lose games you didn't need to.

Okay great, I'm being agreed with that it's too early to be putting people at E-1 and also we're putting Aeronaut at E-1???? Sigh.

UNVOTE:

In the first post, Aureal says that she wants to vote Maestro as well as Aeronaut. Half a day later, Aureal unvotes Aeronaut. Aureal has not put a vote on Maestro, or anyone, since then. What does this tell you?

I think I considered responding with this, but I feel a little dumb because I can't exactly tell what you're trying to say here aside from you don't want to vote people, which I think is incorrect. If you could spell it out for me, I'd appreciate it. I definitely meant to respond something to this effect when it was posted, but I just completely spaced it and I apologize for that.

[Elpis]

This Kawaii wagon is really bad

I agree that it's not good, but I feel a bit like I was pushed to vote on people I didn't think were scum for the sake of "pushing things along" so I did so. I will undo that now since Kawaii has been posting more

UNVOTE:

[Elpis]

Ok, other general thoughts from all that:

- Bewolk/Cloudy | Slight townread on 185 for me. I like his take on Dragon specifically. He is unsure of dragon's motivations or why he's scumreading people.
- Dragon's push on Bewolk just seems really strange to me. It feels more defensive than anything.
- Kawaii wagon is really bad.
- Elpis' posting about how there's nothing to talk about is pinging me.
-

I'd say the most organic wagon that's grown is Maestro's. It's taken some real fight to get people to get on, and I don't feel like Maestro has done a whole lot to warrant him being town. Like I said though, I really can't tell if he's just disinterested or not. The comment about Aureal and Inactives felt... completely out of place. I also like this Maestro wagon quite a bit because I'm decently sure 2 of those 3 are town.

If I'm looking at how wagons have formed, Ircher's grew incredibly quickly, mine grew decently quickly, Kawaii's grew very quickly. I'd say that the odds of scum being on those wagons is pretty high.

I don't fully understand what makes you so confident that you would fully label me as scum, but I do actually mostly agree with everything else here. I'd like to hear your thoughts on why

[Elpis]

For most of this game I've been trying to just deal with things in a general demeanor, and to form judgements lightly where possible, as in my general day to day, I am extremely non-judgemental, and give a lot of benefit of the doubt, "what if x was happening", etc. I'm realizing based on the feedback of that, that it doesn't work in this environment, and I'll try to do as you all are and try to analyze every response I can into a genuine assertion I can make on people. However, I would also add that it's still day 1, and as a couple people have said at this point, trying to "solve" and conclude what people are at this point feels a little ridiculous, and I really would like to have more information on folks before I make judgements that are so definitive on them. I also feel like it's worth expressing that, as someone with ADH-tism, I may think and view things a bit differently than others might. I do NOT want this to be seen as some form of pity-me expression, moreso I want it to show that if my expressions seem a little odd, I want you to ask me why I feel that way, so I can clarify.

If we're going based on vibes alone, I was very bothered by the large aggressive backlash of Maestro, even if he was criticized for scum lurking, it felt like a lot, and maybe it's my own personal response to loudly expressed tone, but it was flagging to me as someone that was so mad over something like that would be trying to use personal experience as a coverup, with a layer of sardonic anger. I would put them at the top of my list for

scum

suspicion. I do also want to add here, that I am very emotionally motivated in most areas of my life, so this analysis is largely oriented by feelings, and doesn't have a large logical basis, which is why I haven't been pushing it as hard as I want to.

I'm still deeply confused by Aero's #291, where he definitively outlines me as scum, but does very little outline the significance of it aside from my posts about being unsure what to say, which I suppose I can recognize why people read that as being idle, but it was an attempt to express I was unsure where to continue-- I genuinely am new to this, and it's gotten a lot more in depth than I ever anticipated would become necessary. I'm learning with every post. Aside from this, I can't say I feel Aero is incredibly scummy, and I'd put them on

null town

if I had to. They were very friendly at the beginning, which with my experience with in-person werewolf games, made me feel like it was an attempt to create a bond with folks and draw away suspicion later, a term which I think in this meta is used as pocketing (I didn't see it in the glossary, but it's been used a few times here and I'm just assuming.). However, as the game has drawn on, they've become more analytical, and everyone recognizes at this point that their expression of Ircher at E-1 and not unvoting was terribly suspicious. HOWEVER, they expressed directly in the post that it was E-1, and followed it with the significance of pressure on someone motivating them to express thoughts. This post I am currently making is proof alone in that being a valid statement, and I feel that what would be even more scummy would be

the person to actually cause the hammer to fall

. Even after Aero expressing that. I can't say I personally find them scummy.

Dragon I originally read as town, and perhaps their constant judgement of my attempts at adapting to this medium are clouding my judgement when it comes to viewing them. I'm trying not to be bothered by their criticisms, since I recognize that's necessary for this game, but it's been upsetting to see my natural demeanor of benefit of the doubt characterized as fence sitting time and time over, especially on day 1. I just did an ISO on them to try to get clear thoughts on them, and they seem to be primarily analyzing responses, and providing critical feedback on those things. I can't really classify that behavior as scummy, but I think they've done a lot of throwing suspicion in ways that are perhaps not always the most helpful. I will be classifying them as

Null

currently, though if I was following my feelings moreso, I would tend them towards null-scum.

[ As an aside, I do want to say that he expressed that I didn't seem anxious about this with my posts, and I will clarify that I actually feel very anxious about this, it feels like every post I make has some sort of unintended expression to it that wasn't intended, I think mostly because I don't understand the meta]

Ircher's posting has been almost exclusively reactionary, but the reactions he has made have been succinctly bulletpointed often, quoted to show relevance, and just generally expressive of game knowledge in a way that makes me respect them. I feel that if they were town, or scum, they would be acting the same way right now, and I'm a bit intimidated by that information. Regardless, I think their views have been largely things I agree with, and I would classify them as

town

, especially through #294 where they directly asked patch to analyze them. I guess I couldn't see a scum doing that so freely.

Kawaii doesn't have many posts to go off of, and many of them are largely positive. I appreciate that they agree with my stance on taking the time to figure things out over time, and they do share my suspicions about Dragon, but they haven't made very many posts that say a lot of things, and I really would like to see more from them. It does feel like they could be trying to pocket me, but at the same time, I can't say it's not working. I appreciate their support in making me feel like not all of my perspectives are wrong by being tentative with convictions. I would put them at

Null-Town

for now, but if they don't participate more, that could change.

Bewolkt has some notes that I can appreciate, namely their expression that number of posts doesn't equate to interaction or full involvement. I also appreciate their #210 in response to Dragon, clarifying thoughts and responding politely about what they had said. They've been succinct in their expression and actively participated in querying folks about their thoughts on matters. It's feel very town leaning, and I think they pass into the threshold of

Null-Town

for me. I think they're probably still gathering information, and forming thoughts, and will have more to say at later times likely.

Patch was someone that I felt pretty neutrally or towny about at the beginning, but I have come to significantly disagree with a lot of their views. I don't understand how they can see Maestro's responses and actions as town, I don't understand how they can tell me to involve myself more, while doing a marginal amount of participation themselves, and I don't appreciate the very minor amount of information they seem to express with each post. I feel like we not only need to see more from them, but more descriptions of why they feel the way they do about their views. For the moment, I would classify Patch as

Null-Scum

.

Lastly, Aureal feels like they're pushing Maestro pretty hard with their views, but I can't help but really agree with them, and that could very well be a vulnerability of my emotion oriented mindset. Aside from that, they've made efforts to have people interact more, and their thoughts have been relatively open the entire time. I don't really feel like I need to clarify more than that to express that I feel she's

Town

.

I apologize for the length of this post, I just wanted to have all my thoughts on the table. I'm also noticing that Maestro has posted more, so I'll put a little followup on my thoughts there.

[Elpis]

Followup, Mastro's posts, while not entirely invalid, are frustrating to process due to aggressive tone as usual. I don't feel that I can make a logically sound assessment at this moment.

[Elpis]

feel like we not only need to see more from them, but more descriptions of why they feel the way they do about their views.

also, i kind of have? i posted a readlist a little while ago of my views on all the players minus maestro, ircher, and you, and then i elaborated on you and maestro later on.

You have done what I feel is the bare minimum at times, I think you could stand to express a lot more.

Also, your interactions with Maestro above just further prove that, your responses are "town" and "vibe" as opposed to expressing your rationale behind it

[Elpis]

tbh towniest post so far from elpis but aureal/elpis is a possible pairing

imo maestro comes off as towny because of the sheer indignancy radiating off his posts. scum tends to just give up, but in town, they will fight, and you can see that in maestro's posts. it's not overly defensive given they've been being pushed a ton, and it's very towny, at least in my eyes.

I feel like it'd be the opposite, but I'm not really experienced enough to speak on that.

I appreciate you expressing this, though

[Elpis]

Also, your interactions with Maestro above just further prove that, your responses are "town" and "vibe" as opposed to expressing your rationale behind it

didn't i literally just explain why i though ti was towny

we posted the messages simultaneously

[Elpis]

welcome in, Kanna

[Elpis]

My sleep schedule is wack rn, just updating for the moment that I may not get replies in until late, in case something drastic happens with the posting. However, I'm looking forward to seeing what Kanna's views are of the rest of the folks, and I also honestly am in support of a hammer occurring against Maestro at this moment. I'll withhold my vote until I wake up, but I would be surprised if my thoughts are swayed. I just don't want to disrespect Dragon's wishes by creating an ability for someone to cause a hammer despite what he's expressed.

[Elpis]

If this post above seems odd in any respect, it's because I'm very sleep deprived and may be typing nonsense, will probably make more sense tonight

[Elpis]

I'm here, sorry, I woke up and had a totally head empty no thoughts day, and to some extent I blame my sleep schedule. I'm trying to catch up currently--

I saw a few posts remarking that my expression of trying to let folks know that I might be feeling off was, in general terms, "suspicious because it was trying to cast judgement off myself rather than cast it on others" which seems silly. Why would I not clarify why something could be perceived as wrong, and why would I not want to make sure people understand my rationale? Being town isn't JUST about scumhunting, it's about communicating and making sure people know what you're saying and doing. If I exclusively targeted others and never backed up or answered thoughts about myself, I would probably be cast out, and then town would have one less person in their favor. I just want that to be out there, because I feel that anyone with that line of thought should really recognize why it doesn't work.

As for you, Dragon, let me rephrase that aspect of my analysis. Their views, largely, have been views that I agree with, when it comes to doubts on other players, and general perspectives. If I didn't agree, I at least understood, and I respected that about them. However, that sense of flat expression about their views on things felt like something that either town or scum would provide, and so it ended up being useful, as well as possibly suspicious. I think that if their views on things had run contrary to mine, I may have considered them scum, but because they ran parallel, I felt they were more towny. Does that make sense?

[Elpis]

I also want to add, I have no clue what PR means. I'm going to the glossary at the moment to look, but a lot of these posts I've missed seem a little hard to understand without that proper context

[Elpis]

Okay, I'm assuming that it's being used for power role, and not post restriction. I'll read again and comment if anything stands out

[Elpis]

TOWN:

patchwork: they're playing exactly how i expect casual/relaxed town to play. they're not trying too hard and sort of just saying whatever, including controversial opinions and little comments that may seem unnecessary/could've been organised into a more concise post. this suggests to me that they're unafraid of the game and don't care how they're perceived which is +town. i've liked numerous posts from them including:

Spoiler:

i think the dragon vote is a little dumb
last newbie we wagoned him for sucking a ton in RVS, i don't think it's inherently AI to say he's bad at rvs because it reminds me of his play last game and he feels like he's coming into this game with an "oh boy please don't wagon me for being goofy in RVS" view because that happened last time

also on aeronaut: i think he's fine

VOTE: Ircher

i think my trs are
dragon as top town - lining up with meta, they do feel a bit awkward in his first post i agree but that's mirroring his play in our other newbie and they feel very towny
aero - i like him and his play SO FUCKING MUCH he has good takes on play etc etc maybe this might just be personal bias but oh well
elpis - not sure why they're so high, but mostly just because of the vibes. i like the way they post, it seems like it's coming from a towny perspective. i also can't tell if their profile picture is undertale or just pixel art elpis if you see this please clarify because i'm like,, going insane of it istg
maestro - lower than aero and elpis because i haven't seen much of their play yet, but i like the way they post too. maybe i'll come back on this later

gut takes/vibe reads are towny when they make sense, which imo does at the time

I don't plan on doing that if I believe he's scum.

so do you believe if he's scum?

Yes. Especially since he has not come back to the game since that interaction.

is that an activity read?

The only one that has changed slightly for me is Elpis. I went back to take a read, and I do feel like they are fence sitting a bit more than I'd like. I guess now that I'm saying it though, I get being nervous as a newbie and not wanting to make too big of an impact right away. I just would like to see more hard stances from them.

also yeah i was gonna comment on the scumlean, but this makes sense
i feel like it's not really deserving of a +scum take imo, their anxiety feels very towny to me because that was basically exactly how i played in 2112 and their posts seem like they come from town, at least to me

they haven't done any notable pushes, but i don't think that's necessarily scummy, it's more of a effort thing which is nai/personality. i kinda hate how they townread maestro cause he threw a fit in 305 (in a non alignment related way) but i do think that it comes from a good place. the reasoning in this post, to quote one of my favourite people on the site, is very heartsong.

imo maestro comes off as towny because of the sheer indignancy radiating off his posts. scum tends to just give up, but in town, they will fight, and you can see that in maestro's posts. it's not overly defensive given they've been being pushed a ton, and it's very towny, at least in my eyes.

is a good post

TOWN (LESS SO)

Elpis: my first impression of this slot wasn't the best. i get a lot of timid energy from their posts, like they're afraid of stepping on people's toes. for example this post where there is a lot of 'maybe'/'neutral' type language

As for TRs (Town reads, I am assuming)
I feel pretty null about dragon? I don't quite know the meta, but they did have a somewhat odd post?
Aero I feel mildly suspicious of, but I also think that might just be a sense of paranoia, I don't honestly think they've done anything to deserve those feelings.
patchwork feels very towny, I feel like it'd surprise me if they were scum, maybe also just vibes though.
maestro originally was my top scum thought, but after doing some rereading, I feel decidedly neutral.
Ircher, while not the most polite in their responses, was relatively succinct in their thoughts, and didn't lend towards action that could've gotten someone killed, I think. maybe slightly above null.


bewolkt and kawaii are also null for me, hoping they post some more

there is also this post where i'm not sure what the purpose of the second sentence is and the vote confuses me even more. this makes me think they want to join the wagon, but also don't really agree with the reasoning but also kind of do...? i'm also not sure. i generally think this type of energy comes from nervousness due to getting a red pm

Sorry for the late reply! I think my email settings might be not working properly, so I just saw the start--

I guess I'd agree with Dragon about Aero being very buddy, but it's also a newbie game, so I understand the desire to be friendly

VOTE: Aeronaut

i think their posting does get better the more i read though and i am aware they are a newbie so that could explain their earlier hesitance. i liked their marked improvement in confidence with 370. to conclude, i want to give them the benefit of the doubt and say they are more town than scum. i hope you keep gaining confidence!

The expressions of "maybe/neutral" language defines the entirety of my normal day to day life, and it's so routine for me that breaking it for this has been something I've had to be very conscious of. You definitely nailed that expression on the head.

"this makes me think they want to join the wagon, but also don't really agree with the reasoning but also kind of do...?"
Definitely pretty much exactly what was going through my head at the time. I wasn't sure how the site games usually ran, or if wagoning like that was common for day 1 stuff. It was a mix of confusion and also like, "euhhh maybe?".

Your accurate analysis of my early posting's demeanor makes me want to trust your analysis of patch, but I just still feel very conflicted about them. It feels a bit like they could just be a town that doesn't have the energy to respond about much, but it also feels like they could be abusing that idea in order to just lounge and lurk, especially with the lack of scumhunting there. In addition, even if the former of this statement is true, I can in no way at all support that they saw maestro being as explosive as he was, and go, "mmh, yeah, definitely town.". Plus, the post you quoted about their remark on Maestro is still one I actively disagree with. Maestro was being overly defensive by being aggressively offensive, violently so at times. Perhaps I just can't understand how someone could see that as town-like, to attack everyone else's perceptions of you rather than clarify them.

[Elpis]

I mean, if yall prefer bewolkt first, I don't care, both of them are scum, I'm CERTAIN of it tbh, but am happy to hear the points of anyone who thinks otherwise, but at the bottom if you go "Isolate Users" check bewolkt, and patchwork, then read/skim their posts together, I'm certain of it, like, I have people outside them I'm like "you are certainly town" that narrows it down, and then their interactions (or lack of) seal the deal.


hi yall, nice to meet yall happy to be here! I am Maestro slot,

who did in fact claim pr, so um we will not be voting me out today, we let scum kill me

(cause they kinda have to lol) and instead we vote out patchwork or bewolkt today, and the other tomorrow, and the game is over. since those are the two scum.

(disregard my 428 as trying to bigbrain in a newbie probably isn't the smartest idea.) @everyone: like andante said, if they're town they're already dead so i think the best choice here is for her is to claim exactly what pr she is now there's nothing to lose. if she's scum, the real town pr will counterclaim and we can get 1 confscum out of 2 people. i don't think it's ever right for her to skirt by with a vague pr claim. what do you guys think?

I don't think I have the game knowledge to understand precisely why this is a bad idea, but it

FEELS

like one. I agree with the ideas you're expressing here, and considering the prior scum-thoughts on maestro's slot, they make sense. I still feel uneasy over it though, because I don't fully grasp what the ramifications of it could mean.

[Elpis]

Im on mobile so it’s not easy to quote/whatnot but 2 things.

1- What was Aureal’s unvote post about me?? I just came from a game where I was scum and Aureal was town, that post? I’m just like really confused about it

2- Why on earth would you want me to claim my pr? “what’s the harm in that?” it literally will tell scum the setup? you can vote me out here before I ever hardclaim it.

I guess the part 2 of this is the "ramifications" spoken of in the previous post

[Elpis]

I'm about to sleep again, abysmal schedule, hoping to fix it soon.

Kanna has views I agree with, and views I'm conflicted over. I want to have a solid basis on their position, but I just honestly don't yet. I think they appeal to me from an emotional perspective, but logically I don't agree with some of their views, namely the confidence of dragon and patch as town. It does feel like a strongly emotionally driven perspective, which I do admire outside of this environment, but inside of it, I'm not quite sure if it functions as well as I would like it to. I want to say Null-Town for now, but I hope to see continued analysis that doesn't fall heavily within an emotional trend, if that's alright? I don't want this to be taken poorly, as I genuinely respect emotional analysis as a trend. However, I would argue that in a purely text based environment, you're losing somewhere in the range of 70% of communication of expression, which makes that style of approach struggle in some respects.

As for Andante, I'm still reeling a bit from your immediate entry into a full solve on your part. I recognize there are 21 pages of forum post to go through alongside it, but it feels like you could be making an extremely over the top confidently bold attempt to shift blame from yourself onto the two generally expressed next highest candidates, and I guess I just don't fully agree with your assessment. Patch I can understand wanting to have heavy suspicion for, I feel similarly, but Bewolkt just hasn't seemed terribly scummy to me thus far? If you could point out the posts that make you feel strongly about your views here, I'd like to see them.

[Elpis]

I'm about to sleep again, abysmal schedule, hoping to fix it soon.

Kanna has views I agree with, and views I'm conflicted over. I want to have a solid basis on their position, but I just honestly don't yet. I think they appeal to me from an emotional perspective, but logically I don't agree with some of their views, namely the confidence of dragon and patch as town. It does feel like a strongly emotionally driven perspective, which I do admire outside of this environment, but inside of it, I'm not quite sure if it functions as well as I would like it to. I want to say Null-Town for now, but I hope to see continued analysis that doesn't fall heavily within an emotional trend, if that's alright? I don't want this to be taken poorly, as I genuinely respect emotional analysis as a trend. However, I would argue that in a purely text based environment, you're losing somewhere in the range of 70% of communication of expression, which makes that style of approach struggle in some respects.

As for Andante, I'm still reeling a bit from your immediate entry into a full solve on your part. I recognize there are 21 pages of forum post to go through alongside it, but it feels like you could be making an extremely over the top confidently bold attempt to shift blame from yourself onto the two generally expressed next highest candidates, and I guess I just don't fully agree with your assessment. Patch I can understand wanting to have heavy suspicion for, I feel similarly, but Bewolkt just hasn't seemed terribly scummy to me thus far? If you could point out the posts that make you feel strongly about your views here, I'd like to see them.

Forgot to mention. I don't feel comfortable making an analysis of Andante yet, but I also don't trust the PR claim.

[Elpis]

I'm about to sleep again, abysmal schedule, hoping to fix it soon.

Kanna has views I agree with, and views I'm conflicted over. I want to have a solid basis on their position, but I just honestly don't yet. I think they appeal to me from an emotional perspective, but logically I don't agree with some of their views, namely the confidence of dragon and patch as town. It does feel like a strongly emotionally driven perspective, which I do admire outside of this environment, but inside of it, I'm not quite sure if it functions as well as I would like it to. I want to say Null-Town for now, but I hope to see continued analysis that doesn't fall heavily within an emotional trend, if that's alright? I don't want this to be taken poorly, as I genuinely respect emotional analysis as a trend. However, I would argue that in a purely text based environment, you're losing somewhere in the range of 70% of communication of expression, which makes that style of approach struggle in some respects.

As for Andante, I'm still reeling a bit from your immediate entry into a full solve on your part. I recognize there are 21 pages of forum post to go through alongside it, but it feels like you could be making an extremely over the top confidently bold attempt to shift blame from yourself onto the two generally expressed next highest candidates, and I guess I just don't fully agree with your assessment. Patch I can understand wanting to have heavy suspicion for, I feel similarly, but Bewolkt just hasn't seemed terribly scummy to me thus far? If you could point out the posts that make you feel strongly about your views here, I'd like to see them.

Forgot to mention. I don't feel comfortable making an analysis of Andante yet, but I also don't trust the PR claim.

It doesn’t matter if you trust it or not? we don’t lim pr claims day 1, plus if I’m scum go find my partner and ask me about them, it’ll give you interactions to read when im dead, but “I’m not comfortable making an andante read yet, and i don’t trust the pr claim”

SO WHAT? I have plenty of content… who cares about the claim? want to say anything about the team read i have?? can you see them being partnered? why/why not?

Valid, taking a look now.

I went through both ISO's, and I can see absolutely negligible evidence that they'd be partnered, I feel like there's almost nothing to go on aside from sparse general interactions from two very reactionary players, I do not feel that "not enough interactions" is reason enough for you to claim a solve on them, much less even a significant case.

[Elpis]

You have a lot more posts, and assumedly a lot more experience so maybe you're seeing things I am not. Please provide more of your rationale.

[Elpis]

Just woke up and got on, it seems like I've missed a LOT, reeling a bit to try and take everything in.

So, Andante claimed tracker-- but is actually a mason with kawaii, and did so to try and bait people who knew the setup? How would people know the setup? Having a little trouble following but I think I understand the general idea. That seems worrisome as information to have out on day 1, because the benefit of masons is mostly later in a game, right?

As for the vote on Kanna, I'm not very comfortable with the idea, especially since they seemed to just be trying to analyze and push Andante for some information, but I also can see that people have set their sights on the latest information rather than past, and intend to try to information gather through Kanna's elimination maybe? If the choice is between Kanna, and Aureal, though, I would be more inclined to vote against Kanna. Aureal has felt really heavily town for me the whole game, and I don't really understand where the suspicions are coming from in that regard. However, I may do another ISO of her soon to see if I've missed something there.

Personally, I am leaning towards a patch/aero scum team, but that's still a work in progress feeling, and I'm not confident.

[Elpis]

Okay, based on this discussion, then, our main vote candidates would be Aero, Aureal, and Kanna? I'd like to see more from Aero, too. Right now, they're in a similar boat with Kanna, as my suspicion of them has tipped up and down consistently

[Elpis]

Okay I'm re-reading the full claim/not claim situation and I'm trying to reassess the situation and make sense of it:

So first there was the initial soft claim. If Andante were scum, that could have already been risky since there was the possibility of being outed by masons if there were in the game. After that, I believe there was no as much pressure on Andante as there was before, so I don't think he was in that much danger anymore. There was still some push for a full claim and he did claim Tracker.

this means if mafia know we are in column c, they have the potential to claim doctor or tracker and *not* be counterclaimed. but mafia also have a risk as they choose the wrong option out of doctor or tracker, they will still be counterclaimed. cop counterclaims tracker and jailkeeper counterclaims doctor. and of course mason counterclaims both because they know if they exist, we must be in a3 or c3.

Kanna kept pushing to out the other PR (I'm using PR here as any role that is not a townie since I've seen some discussion over what is/isn't a PR). I was disagreeing with that reasoning but it is true that if Andante was scum and knew we were in column C, and they were already aware that there were no masons, it would be a 50/50 chance with a false doctor/tracker claim. But for Kanna to think we could be in column C and Andante would have gambled for 1 setting there... That's a big jump imo if you have no information. But given this, if Kanna is scum then we are for sure in column A, because if she knew we were in column C she didn't need any more info because there would be no other roles to protect Andante.

I’m sorry but that wasn’t a good gambit like, from what I’ve seen scum usually claim pr when they’re in trouble so a ~vague pr~ claim certainly wasn’t going to make me townread you, and then tracker is probably also the most scummy pr to claim alongside doctor cause those are the only two fake claims scum can use. actually, tracker *is* the scummiest pr to claim because a cop has to be outed to counterclaim it. so for scum, it’s like you either survive by guessing the right cell or draw out the cop (both of which are good) or you’re just unlucky and there are masons.

Also I kind of disagree here going back to it. If Andante's gambit had been "Either I survive or out the cop" they would have claimed tracker from the beginning. They softclaimed first which was an "only survive" type of claim and then they were pushed into full claiming. It was really the push from the rest that went to draw out the other PR.

a vague cc is perfectly acceptable

bewolkt
Aureal -- no cc
Elpis
DragonEater70 -- no cc? please confirm
patchwork -- no cc? please confirm
KawaiiKame -- no cc? please confirm
Kanna -- no cc
Andante
Aeronaut

That being said, it is also true that she wasn't pushing to really counterclaim but just to get confirmation that there were no one that could counterclaim it, which is more town. But I have the feeling that even if no one had counterclaimed she would still be thinking that was just Andante guessing the setup somehow, so there was not really another out of this than the full claim.

Also wanted to add, I appreciate this analytical breakdown. I recognize suspicion has been cast in Bewolkt's direction a couple times here and there, but posts like these solidify to me that they're usually just analyzing and unpacking for general expression of personal understanding for the town, and that seems hella towny from where I stand.

[Elpis]

my goodness, just hopped on from my post page last night to see like, 4 new pages? 5? I just caught up and if I'm honest, I got deeply lost in the sauce in the middle of this. I am making efforts to understand but some of this analysis is beyond me at the moment. Gonna take some time to try and read again.

Also, I read in the middle of this a dropped message of me and aureal being a pair if she is scum, which I don't think is an unwarranted assessment. I've been pretty supportive of her in every post I've made, and I've always seen her as very towny. Even if that's not the case, (which it isn't), I think Kanna should get recognition for that, because I think in someone else's shoes in would likely point out the same.

[Elpis]

my goodness, just hopped on from my post page last night to see like, 4 new pages? 5? I just caught up and if I'm honest, I got deeply lost in the sauce in the middle of this. I am making efforts to understand but some of this analysis is beyond me at the moment. Gonna take some time to try and read again.

Also, I read in the middle of this a dropped message of me and aureal being a pair if she is scum, which I don't think is an unwarranted assessment. I've been pretty supportive of her in every post I've made, and I've always seen her as very towny. Even if that's not the case, (which it isn't), I think Kanna should get recognition for that, because I think in someone else's shoes I would likely point out the same.

edited some grammar mistakes

[Elpis]

My initial impression before I reread is that Alisae is a dominating presence with a lot of experience, and analysis that others may not always be able to follow, but I will do my best to understand where I can. I find them intimidating because they'd make an excellent scum I bet, though their actions and analyzing obviously point toward the contrary because they're taking a lot of time to genuinely try to figure things out, instead of just saying what people would want to hear. I wouldn't say locktown, but I definitely intend to listen and look at where their sights go.

Kanna, my goodness I felt the "maybe I'm bad at mafia" in my heart, because I felt the same thing reading through a lot of those posts. A lot of this analysis is beyond me, and I certainly feel new reading through them. I definitely felt some town kinship with that, lol. If it's any consolation, I think you've been doing good, and expressive, and I appreciate your candor.

Dragon, I've been pretty suspicious of you for most of this game, but I feel like a lot of your recent posts have been pretty towny, at least in my eyes. I don't feel as suspicious about you as I used to, and I'm looking forward to more discussions as we continue.

Aureal, I feel like some of your posts have been a bit more aggressive and snappier than I would expect, and I'm not incredibly sure how to take it. I'm actually considering getting on the wagon against you, despite my thoughts this game so far. I hope to see a readlist from you soon, so maybe we can diffuse. I do agree that your flip would probably be really useful, though.

[Elpis]

Aureal, I feel like some of your posts have been a bit more aggressive and snappier than I would expect, and I'm not incredibly sure how to take it. I'm actually considering getting on the wagon against you, despite my thoughts this game so far.

why?

Well, there's a lot of suspicion against her despite my own thoughts, from some players that are confirmed town, and others that seem very town, so like, I **must** be missing something, right?

[Elpis]

Why would what others think influence what you're thinking?
Like yes, Mafia is a team game and you want to compromise when you feel like it would be appropriate to do so, but there's a difference between doing this and just going along with suspicion because the people you think are town are saying they're a wolf so it must be true? Like it goes against you're reads no? why do you seem so willing to compromise on it without even fighting back on it?

I'm NOT willing to compromise entirely, otherwise I'd have already joined the wagon. I still feel strongly that Aureal has been very town up until just today.

[Elpis]

I even directly expressed in my previous post that I wanted to see a readlist and gather more information that way. If it were up to me, I'd much prefer to vote for someone who I feel is the most suspicious, and at the moment, that's Patch. I don't really feel like putting a vote on them now will do anything though, because Aureal seems to be the current majority.

[Elpis]

what have they done today that made you feel that way and why do you feel recent events have been so damning compared to what you already had?

When I'm referring to compromising I don't mean I'm getting you to vote with me but rather you seem willing to go there and I'm trying to assess why

I wouldn't consider them damning, just different than what I expected. She's going really hard against dragon, but I didn't really see his posts are very scummy. It's one of the first moments that I think our reads have misaligned, so either Dragon is doing a good job of subduing what I thought made him suspicious originally, or Aureal is trying to just throw suspicion off of herself without much reason. Either way, I feel conflicted.

[Elpis]

try to sell me on Patch

Patch has been lurking significantly for most of the game, and their responses to most posts have been very short, and barely analytical. They haven't made much impact when it comes to discussions, and while their support of Maestro was actually correct, and he was a mason, I didn't feel his actions said that whatsoever, and it led me to feel extremely in disagreement with them. I just don't really see their actions as towny, and I certainly don't feel that they're contributing to town discussions if they are. I'm unsure if they're just a quiet town that's struggling to add input, or a scum that's trying to bide their time and get away with lurking, but either way, it's bad and I don't have any suspicion higher than them right now.

[Elpis]

tbh towniest post so far from elpis but aureal/elpis is a possible pairing

Why do you think this?

idk, it's just a vibe thing

Posts like this mostly, but I just did a full re-ISO, and I'm having my doubts again. They just seem busy and anxious, and some of their posts actually do at least do more analysis than I gave credit for. Perhaps I was wrong in my assessment, and there are better people to be suspicious over.

[Elpis]

I'm actually a bit frustrated, I don't have strong suspicions about anyone here as much as I would like to at this point. I almost want to vote Alisae purely for the Aero slot being the only other that I had felt pretty funky over, but is that really the right thing to do in this sort of situation? I'm trying not to hide behind my inexperience here, but I genuinely feel like I don't know where my concerns lie. I do agree though, an Aureal readlist could really give me something to think more on.

[Elpis]

I noticed all or most of the things you did and came to the same conclusion - it's weird, it could be towny but it could also be scum trying too hard.
since I don't have better scumreads and since you say Aero's replacement is locktown, do you think we should go for the Aureal flip?

How does Dragon not understand that this "Aero slot is locktown now" thing is clearly a joke? It's very weird how he uses that as an excuse to lead into a push on me.

This seems more like Dragon asking about thoughts, not necessarily expressing them himself.

[Elpis]

I'm heading to sleep here momentarily, just caught up again, and goodness Alisae you post SO much, it's a lot to go through;; You've almost singlehandedly added like 8 pages today, it's a little ridiculous. Not bad ridiculous, just a lot.

I've been giving thought to Beo as I read through this, because prior he's been pretty neutral on my list, and I appreciated some of the analysis he did, but I guess he's just been low on my radar? I think I was so attached to criticisms from dragon/patch/aero, as well as big pushes from kanna/andante, that I really never considered him. If we're planning to vote him, I think we should do the same as we have with Aureal, and ask for information beforehand so that we can get as much as we can, and reach a decisive vote.

Though, I also want to add. I'm leaning towards support of Aureal again after a few of these posts from Alisae, I'll quote below the one I'm feeling the most bothered by real quick

[Elpis]

I think anyone can actually refer to the game that Aureal posted, look at my ISO from there, compare it to what I have here, and see literally 2 different things.
A literal night and day difference

I have a really hard time believing that Aureal is approaching my slot in good faith here.
There is no attempt to see eye to eye, there is no attempt to even try to read me or engage me in interactions.
All of your posts about me since I have rep'd in have just been you slandering me with whatever ammunition you can find.

You're the one that yelled at Maestro and Aero that they should "know better"
If you're going to do that and act like you know what's right then, I'm going to tell you that you should "know better" if you're a villager here.
Because this?
This isn't it.

This just antagonizes me and makes me want to kill you more.

So I'll give you another chance
Do you want to try to form an actual read based on my posts, or are you going to die on this hill that you don't need to read my posts when you can just get a read off of Aero's and Aero's posting alone.

Aureal mentioned already that she was fatigued and trying to focus on other things tonight, and this was in such EXTREME bad faith, to criticize these things despite her efforts. I agree with her expressions that the previous owner of this slot, Aero, was suspicious with a lot of his thoughts, and to carry those over to you since you share the slot is not unreasonable. Suspicion doesn't imply confirmation, but it's valid to express it as rationale, and I'm a little upset at the aggression shown here. Admittedly, I do disagree with Aureal's choice to say that Dragon should "know better" in that one post, but I will say this post from you felt like an aggressive outcry to separate yourself from the previous scum's expressions, and I feel it has cast you in a not very good light.

[Elpis]

edit* replace any instance of Beo with Bewo...I just noticed that as well

[Elpis]

I typed up and considered like 4 different pairings and tried to make sense of all of them, and I honestly hated all of them and none of them made enough sense. Starting to feel like I might be bad at this. I tried approaching Aureal/Alisae as like a entry hate tactic to distance, but that doesn't seem right. I tried looking at Dragon/Patch for similar reasons, they've been up and down a lot, but that seems bad too. The expressions of Bewolkt/Aureal don't have much opposing them, so I think that **could** be a thing, but I also genuinely do trust Aureal to be town, so I don't even feel comfortable there either. I could express some garbage take without support like Bewolkt/Patch or Kanna/Alisae, the latter of the two being buddy-buddy enough to possibly make sense, but otherwise, I don't feel I have as much to provide here as I would like to. I am sorry.

[Elpis]

Aureal mentioned already that she was fatigued and trying to focus on other things tonight, and this was in such EXTREME bad faith, to criticize these things despite her efforts.

hmmmmmmmmmm
no
you see um
we're kind of running on a clock here?
not to mention there are plenty of people here who want said reads from Aureal.
The way I see it, she was trying to avoid doing that and I don't really know what else you would want me to do to try to get that out of her?

tbh I don't really like hounding people for reads but I think this is the kind of thing we both want out in the open asap and I'm not too keen on the idea of being lenient and allowing her to stall for time.
Not to mention if she's a villager, such a thing shouldn't really be troublesome for her to post or work on.

--

I agree with her expressions that the previous owner of this slot, Aero, was suspicious with a lot of his thoughts, and to carry those over to you since you share the slot is not unreasonable. Suspicion doesn't imply confirmation, but it's valid to express it as rationale, and I'm a little upset at the aggression shown here.

hmmmmmmmmmmmm
no
My biggest concern is she's using that to try to avoid sorting me, and I feel like if Aureal is a villager, not only would she be able to identify that I'm a villager in this situation, but also that she would want me to also see her as town.
It sets her up to allow to scapegoat Aero's play for when I flip town.

I do realize we're on a clock, but people need rest, too. Pushing when they're fatigued feels like it'll just generate bad info that means very little. I at least know when I'm sleep deprived I tend to feel like I'm posting nonsense and can't analyze properly

[Elpis]

why i think it's aureal/elpis

remember how we all got weird vibes off of elpis' earlier posts for fencesitting? and then thought she got better? while there are different possibilities, a befitting explanation is that she *was* actually very nervous because of a red pm here esp considering aureal's slot didn't pick up their role pm. these entrance posts are scum indicative. and they were made without any coaching

Spoiler:

Sorry for the late reply! I think my email settings might be not working properly, so I just saw the start--

I guess I'd agree with Dragon about Aero being very buddy, but it's also a newbie game, so I understand the desire to be friendly

VOTE: Aeronaut

It's undertale inspired pixel art

As for TRs (Town reads, I am assuming)
I feel pretty null about dragon? I don't quite know the meta, but they did have a somewhat odd post?
Aero I feel mildly suspicious of, but I also think that might just be a sense of paranoia, I don't honestly think they've done anything to deserve those feelings.
patchwork feels very towny, I feel like it'd surprise me if they were scum, maybe also just vibes though.
maestro originally was my top scum thought, but after doing some rereading, I feel decidedly neutral.
Ircher, while not the most polite in their responses, was relatively succinct in their thoughts, and didn't lend towards action that could've gotten someone killed, I think. maybe slightly above null.


bewolkt and kawaii are also null for me, hoping they post some more

if aureal and elpis was a team, i am 90% sure their plan would be to hard townread each other and not bus -- at least until a few days in. this is because elpis is a brand new player and also really cute and nice so i don't think aureal has the heart to do that. that being said, that's exactly how they've played the game thus far. elpis is like aureal's biggest supporter (she even admits it in 832)

Spoiler:

I also do want to update--

Aureal feels exceptionally towny, I don't think there would be so much criticism or assessment of people's actions leading to possible early hammers if there wasn't a desire to make absolute certain when people are voted out, that they are scum. I appreciate that.

Busy couple nights, sorry for not posting too much--

I see that folks have been asking me to be more open with my thoughts, which is strange to me because I feel like I've expressed them as they've come to me. I think Aureal is very towny, I have mixed messages about Aero, but currently feel more of a null/mild town lean. There's a lot of discussion going on and attacking of minutia, but like-- there are SO few actual points to really call out on as being incredibly scummy, I feel. I have absolutely no strong feelings to really go off of.

I assume the vote against me by Bewolkt was just to push me to talk more, but truly my thoughts are not much to really post on as things currently stand. I don't have strong scum feelings towards anyone, and my only confident vibe is that Aureal is not scum.

Lastly, Aureal feels like they're pushing Maestro pretty hard with their views, but I can't help but really agree with them, and that could very well be a vulnerability of my emotion oriented mindset. Aside from that, they've made efforts to have people interact more, and their thoughts have been relatively open the entire time. I don't really feel like I need to clarify more than that to express that I feel she's

Town

.

on aureal's side, the most she's ever criticised elpis is on putting a third vote on someone, which i guess... is not really a push at all? and not responding to a post, but that doesn't go anywhere

Spoiler:

I did realize I was doing this, but at the time, I was actually totally unaware that the vote limit was 5 and then things would immediately end. If I'm completely honest, the vote was moreso intended to be an expression of current suspicion, and not actually a definitive, "I want this person dead and gone" thing. I'm recognizing now that it shouldn't be used in that manner, and I will revoke it for now, especially with how close things have gotten to hammering.

UNVOTE:

No, you're fine using it like that, at this point especially that's what's expected. I'm making a point though that it CAN lead to someone getting eliminated, so some caution is warranted when vote counts start getting high.

Oh yes, and I noted Elpis did not respond to my prompting for thoughts, and I thought that was kind of odd as I thought Elpis in particular needed something to focus on, her previous post was literally saying to ask if there's anything we wanted her thoughts on. Instead she came back and voted Kawaii.

i also find interesting how when elpis gets shaded by other people, she um... redirects the conversation? dragon brings up a good point with the coloured text here (although i don't agree with the conclusion he made)

Spoiler:

The only one that has changed slightly for me is Elpis. I went back to take a read, and I do feel like they are fence sitting a bit more than I'd like. I guess now that I'm saying it though, I get being nervous as a newbie and not wanting to make too big of an impact right away. I just would like to see more hard stances from them.

I did think her first post was a bit awkward and thought about saying something to that effect before, then noticed that the vote on you there was the third and wondered if Elpis was trying to do something with that.

Elpis, did you realize that you were putting a third vote on Aeronaut with that post?

Another thing on 161 is the discussion about Elpis feels about artificial. Like is it actually important why Elpis put the third vote on someone?

It kinda reads as an attempt to create an opening for a later push. BUT I have to say I haven't actually seen a lot of scum doing this (creating an opening for later pushes), and it's not like Aureal is super experienced or something, so it could just be paranoia.

I thought it was interesting that Elpis placed a third random vote because they were throwing out the "I'm a total newbie and don't know what I'm doing" thing, but I'd think a newbie would be more cautious with their opening. Putting a third RVS vote on someone can draw attention and I'd expect it to generate some discussion of why people are putting so many random votes on the same person.

202 - again it's kinda weird that they are sayong Elpis should be careful with placing a third vote.

But I can definitely see town acting this way, too.

Giving a little advice to the person who seems to be struggling with how the game works. And I didn't specify third votes, just that some caution is warranted when vote counts get high because you could more easily end up on an elimination you didn't want, so I'm not sure where that comes from?

this is the only readlist aureal has (apart from the new one which i haven't read yet) and the reasons for townreading elpis are not very good. it's something to the effect of like "i townread them because i think they're town"

Spoiler:

Who do you feel is scum if not Kanna?
The potential exists that Kanna is hyper-observant town who realized the tracker thing, the possibility also exists that Kanna is mechanically aware scum who saw a hole in adante's tracker claim and pursued adante to draw out a cc/the true claim

I really don't see the latter situation. If scum saw town fake-claiming, I'd think they'd just wait for town to kill itself for no reason with counter claims.

As for my reads:

Kanna: haven't had much reason to suspect this slot apart from seeming a bit hasty in pushing the Maestro slot; and her suspicions aligning with mine makes me feel pretty good here.

Elpis: while I've questioned some of what Elpis has done, the newbie vibes and insecurity are mostly ringing true by this point.

Dragon: liked his opening, has gone back and forth in the meanwhile with some things making me question where he's coming from, but his questioning of me was insightful enough that it got me thinking about my own actions and it's hard to not find that towny.
bewolkt: feels fairly similar to the game we played before, not the most active but bringing some insight; I was able to successfully townread him in the previous game when at one point he started ripping thoughts right out of my head and that hasn't happened yet but it's too much to ask that to happen all the time.
patch: I do feel a little better here after the re-read but the disarray of thoughts is hard for me to read and apparently not alignment indicative.
Aero: I just did a full re-read and afterward I still couldn't remember a damn thing Aero has done since arguing about the propriety of E-1 with me (which was an argument I initiated); I had to review his ISO to get any sense of him doing anything else and it still wasn't that impressive. I don't normally care much for this sort of argument but the way Aero just doesn't stand out as doing anything makes me feel it's our best bet to find scum here- and his own argument from early in the game also.

maybe it's also worth noting that their interests seem to align here in that they both want to push aero. and elpis makes it clear that she would rather vote me than aureal. i've yet to see an in depth reason as to why she townreads aureal so much

Spoiler:

Just woke up and got on, it seems like I've missed a LOT, reeling a bit to try and take everything in.

So, Andante claimed tracker-- but is actually a mason with kawaii, and did so to try and bait people who knew the setup? How would people know the setup? Having a little trouble following but I think I understand the general idea. That seems worrisome as information to have out on day 1, because the benefit of masons is mostly later in a game, right?

As for the vote on Kanna, I'm not very comfortable with the idea, especially since they seemed to just be trying to analyze and push Andante for some information, but I also can see that people have set their sights on the latest information rather than past, and intend to try to information gather through Kanna's elimination maybe? If the choice is between Kanna, and Aureal, though,

I would be more inclined to vote against Kanna. Aureal has felt really heavily town for me the whole game

, and I don't really understand where the suspicions are coming from in that regard. However, I may do another ISO of her soon to see if I've missed something there.

Personally, I am leaning towards a patch/aero scum team, but that's still a work in progress feeling, and I'm not confident.

I've been thinking a lot about why I townread Aureal so much ever since the criticisms of her started to spark up more, and if I'm entirely honest, I think her criticisms of Maestro gave me a large emotional appeal, and maybe I've been trying to see her in a positive light as a result of that. It's entirely likely my logical side got a little messy as a result of it, and I just haven't been able to shift my views due to that. This analysis is completely valid to have made, though. I probably would agree with aspects of it were it not about myself.

However, calling back on my first messages having nervous energy-- in my first forum mafia game -- where I ALSO learned I almost missed my message timer because I wasn't notified by email, feels a little reach-y. I'm also doing my best to move past fencesitting, but as I have expressed in the past, I am extremely passive and overly respectful in reality, and it's been hard to NOT be that way here. I think at the beginning I genuinely felt like it'd be rude to people to scumread them early.

If Aureal and I were a team, I think you'd be correct about my end of the bargain, I'd probably want to be really polite and townread them. However, I actually don't know if Aureal would do the same? She expressed earlier that she wanted to do some sardonic arguing, and that makes me think she has a rude streak in her that she would probably use against a fellow scum. That's my thoughts at least.

For the redirecting thing, I really don't think i've been doing that? When people accuse me of things i usually try to clarify and explain myself or my thoughts, or at least I TRY to. I think things fall through the cracks sometimes.

And finally, for why I'd vote you, Kanna, over Aureal, is that you've done things that are definitively questionable to a more significant degree, I feel. I think it could be argued that your push for the PR to claim identity is what eventually led to our masons being revealed, and I even expressed trepidation over what could happen when that came up. I don't know how to feel about you, but-- I do find this post by you to be generally positive leaning.

[Elpis]

Really interesting how you say you want reads from Aureal but not really engage with them though!

Also, I will do this now. I was so distracted by you expressing desire to kill that I completely spaced on giving it more effort.

[Elpis]

Updated Reads (not for Alisae! )

Kanna:
No changes here, the thinking I could be trying to pocket her makes plenty of sense and I expect I'd be very worried about the same thing in the reverse situation.

Elpis:
Still pretty much the same, indecisive new town struggling with how much weight to give to their own reads vs. hoping more experienced people have it figured out.

patchwork:
Slightly higher not because of anything they've done but because I'm PoEing it down to the last three as being the most likely places to find scum, though with a modest chance of patch being in there still.

----- I have no thoughts on the likelihood of any particular combination of these three below, I am running ragged right now and need to sleep -----

DragonEater70:
Said earlier that the questioning me over my thought experiment was good, but with 333- the bad push reasons begin. " Aureal is actually saying that you shouldn't call anyone out for inactivity at this stage. Which is very weird because they do exactly that ater on." Obviously 'at this stage' and 'later on' are totally different things so I'm very baffled how someone could genuinely write this. I called this out already in 398 and Dragon backed down with "I am inclined to believe / agree with most of what you said"
In 787, 791 he starts accusing me of being scum and OMGUS and that I'm twisting his words for reacting with disbelief to his post 719 that says "Maybe because Aureal is simultaneously unvoting Andante and throwing shade at them in the same post? It doesn't make any sense." It's like he has finally sensed the opportunity to seriously push me and over-committed to making me seem bad because my post should make complete sense to him, a person who was also unvoting and still throwing shade at Andante. In 792 he actually swears in his refutal of my calling this out, which seems really out of character for him. Then in 931 he's apparently walking back his reaction and saying that he was not reading posts- his own or mine- very carefully. Unless this is sarcasm? Which would also be pretty out of character for him.

bewolkt:
Basically already said this one in 838. I really expect more from bewolkt at this stage. He's just not contributing to relevant content.

Alisae:
No I am not going to drop my scumread because Alisae is here now. I'm going to cling to it harder, because I know she's going to mess with everyone as scum. I couldn't read her as scum in our previous game, I have no confidence in being able to foil her machinations. She's still managing to give me some doubt in that I can see Dragon/bewolkt could be a team, but wow her impatience sure doesn't make me want to give her any more benefit of the doubt.

(On that note, Andante, if you're so sure it's Alisae and bewolkt I think flipping Alisae first would be better because, uh, I don't think you're going to be around tomorrow to help push her and I don't think people are going to care too much to listen to me. You see what she's doing right now?)

I'm mostly surprised to see Patch so high, but I do understand placing Kanna relatively towny, because I do agree on that front, even if some questionable choices have been made.

I think the read on dragon is actually due to a lot of miscommunicating, but I'm not sure! I feel like every time aureal and dragon interact, some form of misunderstanding occurs. I wonder if that could be intentional, but in general, I don't agree with her view. Dragon trends more town for me now.

The bewolkt thing is just a restatement, but it does have some validity, even if it's extremely brief. Bewolkt needs to talk more and be involved more, and I want to know their thoughts on Alisae thus far.

Alisae...I don't know at all. You're throwing analyses everywhere, asking questions, being so over the top town that it feels like overcompensating, but if you're genuinely town, why WOULDN'T you get involved and try to figure things out and comment thoughts. You're probably townier than Aureal thinks, even if I really don't like the feelings I have about it. I feel emotionally null-scum toward you, and logically null-town, if that makes sense.

[Elpis]

Now I truly must sleep. I've spent too long awake doing this.

[Elpis]

Ok, so Kawaii is absolutely locktown due to Andante's confirmed mason role.

Aureal not only got hammered while I was asleep, but hammered off by Patch? I don't think I will ever trust anything they say anymore.

Though, I absolutely feel validated in my trust in Aureal, she was towning the whole time, so with respect, my eyes are on everyone that was on that wagon, ESPECIALLY Patch and Alisae. I'm so bothered that a hammer occurred while I was asleep.

[Elpis]

crying sobbing

I was rereading the game during the night and I don’t think it’s elpis. elpis has been asking questions in thread which I feel like could’ve been asked in the scum pt if they were scum. like this post

I also want to add, I have no clue what PR means. I'm going to the glossary at the moment to look, but a lot of these posts I've missed seem a little hard to understand without that proper context

is maybe this is a townslip. pretty easy to fake, yes, but I’m not sure many newb!scum would *think* to fake it. and if it’s something as important as what a pr is, I’m sure the other scum would’ve told them. as far as I’m aware, elpis is the only brand new player here. and rereading their play, I think they’re doing very very good and maybe that’s just like out of the scum range of a newb scum?

I want to townlock them

my feelings about dragon still haven’t changed. I reread their interactions with aureal and do believe dragon just misread posts/missed context and things snowballed from there — nothing deeper than that.

the hammer vote from patch did kind of ping me though, like what does this mean?

putting a VOTE: aureal in case someone unvotes before mod comes

hopefully flip gives good info, i still think bewo/aureal may be paired but i'm gonna take night a a time to reread and actually think

I can imagine someone in their position thinking “I don’t hate this lim and it looks like it’s happening so I want to hammer” in which case they should’ve just said so but instead their reasoning is “in case someone unvotes before mod comes”. This doesn’t match with the fact they thought someone hammered aureal already and alisae clearly saying just before aureal was at 4 votes. Also their vote unvote vote was kinda cute the first time I saw it but maybe it’s goofy in an offbeat way

about alisae, euuurghhh e did strongly ping town and kinda pushed all my right buttons yesterday but today they go into suspects pool. aero *was* sort of just the right amount of null-and-acting-towny-but-not-really that i can see coming from scum

[bewo, patch, alisae] holds all the scum

Yeah most of my questions like that aren't like, not knowing what the actual target is, but moreso not knowing the acronym. Like....EDWOP? PR? Real world mafia/werewolf doesn't have acronyms, it took a moment to confirm their uses

[Elpis]

As for the rest of this, yeah, Patch's hammer seems wildly weird, and I **really** hold heavy suspicion over Alisae.

I do also agree that Bewolkt is on the table, but tbh they feel a lot more neutral to me now that two high scum behaviors have sprung from this.

[Elpis]

I was gonna say this earlier before maintenance, but--

I'm going with what Aureal thought, since she had my support and I trust her judgement, along with my own thoughts up to this point.

VOTE: Alisae

If anything significant changes to affect this, I'll unvote, but I feel confident about this for the moment.

[Elpis]

Are you actually serious right now Alisae

[Elpis]

You're voting DRAGON of all the people in the pool currently?

[Elpis]

I don't understand your reasoning, and I don't like your obnoxious total ignorance of his attempts to discuss with you at all. I can't understand your rationale here whatsoever, but you're being intentionally annoying and that's terribly frustrating.

[Elpis]

Ok, so Kawaii is absolutely locktown due to Andante's confirmed mason role.

Aureal not only got hammered while I was asleep, but hammered off by Patch? I don't think I will ever trust anything they say anymore.

Though, I absolutely feel validated in my trust in Aureal, she was towning the whole time, so with respect, my eyes are on everyone that was on that wagon, ESPECIALLY Patch and Alisae. I'm so bothered that a hammer occurred while I was asleep.

This is town who hates what occurred in front of him and was powerless to stop it.
Tho you're new so some words of advice: We didn't have much time left on the clock. The time isn't infinite, if it runs out and we don't have an elim. I was posting around the time and I think there was like, 22 hours left on clock? It's better to elimination someone rather than no one. Also I don't think you should really be fretting to much over things that aren't in your control. But ya it's fine that you're upset that it happened

This isn't invalid, I guess I understand, but I definitely am upset.

[Elpis]

I guess it just feels like you're being antagonizing in order to make people dislike you, but why would scum do that, and why would town do that? It makes so little sense in either respect, especially if you want to scumhunt and be respected on it.

[Elpis]

I did a quick readthrough, and it's a little hard to focus because i'm at a convention until monday, but i'll do my best to make a coherent post soon to identify my thoughts. I will say though, I felt pretty strongly about Alisae scum, and i'm a little frazzled that they weren't. My immediate assumption is to lean into the patch scum, but I need to read back and remember more things. More to come

[Elpis]

Yeah, sorry for not being active, I really want to invest time into this, but realistically I won't be able to until like monday night/tuesday morning. I appreciate you being respectful of that thus far. I think it would be wrong of me to try to make judgements on the single reads through so far. Our gamestate warrants very well thought out assessments

[Elpis]

Updating here, my flight back home is actually much later than I thought, so I will be back at 1 am tuesday, but I should be able to look at some stuff at the airport

[Elpis]

Okay, on my way to the airport, should have a little bit of time to look around

[Elpis]

Okay, so some immediate thoughts:

I'm almost positive Kanna is town. Maybe it's just an emotional response, but I WANT Kanna to be town. They're friendly, they're trying to make this work, they are explaining themselves and trying to recover from being on hammers, I get it. I feel suspicious of Patch and Dragon as well, ESPECIALLY after mentioning they didn't find my 370 very impressive, because damn if that wasn't a clear expression of my thoughts maybe I could never do it.

Bewolkt could very simply be scum with patch, I think. My biggest reads are patch/dragon and patch/bewolkt, though I do feel shakily that it could be dragon/kanna, and that would suck for me I think because I really don't want to vote on that, and I definitely don't see votes leading to that working, so if that IS the case, I bet you actually win here.

As for the comment about barely interacting with bewolkt-- I think that's accurate for sure. I honestly see their posts and I typically think, "mmh...yeah okay sure I see the logic" and then don't really have further thoughts. They seem extremely neutral and could truly be town or scum either way.

In terms of scum tiering, my thoughts are

Patch>Dragon=Bewolkt>Kanna

I do also want to add onto this-- dragons actions SEEM town, but i've had up and down suspicions on them this whole game, and I just feel that they could be just really good scum. If there were more people to choose from, I'd consider otherwise, but this is late, and there are only sparse choices. I don't intend to start a vote here, but I wanted to express these current thoughts.

[Elpis]

Also, putting patch at top town seems really weird, dragon...

[Elpis]

I feel suspicious of Patch and Dragon as well, ESPECIALLY after mentioning they didn't find my 370 very impressive, because damn if that wasn't a clear expression of my thoughts maybe I could never do it.

Huh? When did Patch say that?

Sorry, miscommunication. I was talking about you, dragon. You directly called my 370 out as unimpressive, despite it honestly genuinely being the post I've put the most effort into all game lol

[Elpis]

Am I right in assuming that if we vote wrong this round, we just lose?

[Elpis]

I mean actually it doesn't matter. we really don't have any more room for error at all

[Elpis]

I feel suspicious of Patch and Dragon as well, ESPECIALLY after mentioning they didn't find my 370 very impressive, because damn if that wasn't a clear expression of my thoughts maybe I could never do it.

Huh? When did Patch say that?

Sorry, miscommunication. I was talking about you, dragon. You directly called my 370 out as unimpressive, despite it honestly genuinely being the post I've put the most effort into all game lol

Oh fair I understand why that would make you upset.
I mean I did like it initially but it just doesn't have the some level of hardcore as say Kanna's readlists and analysis.
Like if there'd been more options I would've called you more towny for it, but there's literally 2 scum out of the four of you and I don't see patch and Kanna as scummier than you are.

I can understand that. I think Kanna is a much better analyst than I am, and absolutely more experienced.

I guess it feels really odd to find patch less scummy, considering most of their actions this game. I feel like they've been the target of scrutiny since close to the beginning, and just sort of overlooked entirely by louder voices. I've been pretty heavily suspicious of them for a long while. From my perspective, I feel like your attempts to draw off of them make you look like a team, but I do understand your perspective of suspicion on Bewolkt, I don't disagree with it. Bewolkt very genuinely feels like they're just a reactionary poster, but I don't know if they'd ask the questions they do in those posts if they were scum. I can't say I feel as confident about Bewolkt as I do about Patch

[Elpis]

Am I right in assuming that if we vote wrong this round, we just lose?

yes — and I want to add that specifically if 1 town votes town, scum will quickhammer to get 3 majority. I hope you understand how important it is to not only vote correctly, but identify your teammates and make sure they also vote correctly

oh shit, that's a very good point, and very scary now. I was considering ideas of doing a little suspicion casting vote earlier and now I am **very** glad I did not do that at the con lmfao

[Elpis]

Kanna, I think I trust your judgement here most at the moment. If you definitively are not allied with Dragon, then I feel strongly that siding with you would lead to the most promising results. Let me know who you want to vote first, and I'll probably heavily consider it. I don't think scum would say the thing about hammering

[Elpis]

Kanna, I think I trust your judgement here most at the moment. If you definitively are not allied with Dragon, then I feel strongly that siding with you would lead to the most promising results. Let me know who you want to vote first, and I'll probably heavily consider it. I don't think scum would say the thing about hammering

since i'm still confident on the dragon/patch solve, i don't really care who we vote out first out of the two. in fact, if you or bewo want to decide, go ahead. i don't think patch/dragon are going to help so it will be us 3. can we all get on board with it?

I am willing to be on board for it. I feel more strongly about patch, so i'd feel better starting there. I'm actually still under the impression dragon **could** be town. Do we want to start up a vote?

[Elpis]

I am willing to be on board for it. I feel more strongly about patch, so i'd feel better starting there. I'm actually still under the impression dragon **could** be town. Do we want to start up a vote?

since you don't agree with my solve, i'd rather talk about it rather than start up a vote. maybe we can come to the same conclusion with some discussion, whether it is my solve or not

putting dragon aside, i actually think bewo has been fairly towny today, what do you think?

I do think bewolkt has been pretty towny. I don't necessarily disagree with your solve, I just feel that it could be either patch/bewolkt or patch/dragon. I find the latter more likely, but I also am open to it being either. They both have the capability to be either in my mind, but as it currently stands I find them both to be likely. However, I feel confident that patch is in the solve either way, so I feel most comfortable with that as a starting point. Does that make sense?

[Elpis]

@elpis, 1360 and 1420 also explain why i'm scumreading dragon. i'd like to know what your thoughts about that are. i'm open for disagreement, but i'd at least like to know why

Looking back on this, alongside their expressions for all of today, I think you're right. They do push a lot of votes and make expressions as if they're informed about things.

[Elpis]

yeah that seems like a bad idea lol

[Elpis]

I feel less comfortable with it, but I'd still do it.

[Elpis]

This is once again a bad idea

[Elpis]

and what if they do get quickhammered? we lose?

[Elpis]

This seems like a MASSIVE gamble

[Elpis]

Couldn't that excuse also just be used to start a bus if you're scum, though? Like.. "ooh they aren't getting hammered, that makes them scum"...but if you're scum that just seems like a lackadaisy way to toss arbitrary suspicion onto someone. At best this seems like a HORRIBLE plan to sprint us to a loss, and at worst, a tactic to make yourself seem in the clear and create distance. I can't say I'm happy about it either way.

[Elpis]

Couldn't that excuse also just be used to start a bus if you're scum, though? Like.. "ooh they aren't getting hammered, that makes them scum"...but if you're scum that just seems like a lackadaisy way to toss arbitrary suspicion onto someone. At best this seems like a HORRIBLE plan to sprint us to a loss, and at worst, a tactic to make yourself seem in the clear and create distance. I can't say I'm happy about it either way.

how do I start a bus if there is only two scum, three votes is required for an elim, and one wouldn’t vote themself

That's the idea, though as I explain it, it makes me think maybe this was not your intent, since otherwise you would maybe know. You would be starting a wagon on someone, KNOWING that nobody would vote them because YOU are scum, and then claiming that they're scum because the hammer didn't happen that you **knew** wouldn't happen, because you are the scum. That's the most logical outcome I can think of as to why someone would do that, because otherwise you're just putting high risk on a possible towny and risking immediate loss just on a hunch, which seems terribly unhelpful.

[Elpis]

Couldn't that excuse also just be used to start a bus if you're scum, though? Like.. "ooh they aren't getting hammered, that makes them scum"...but if you're scum that just seems like a lackadaisy way to toss arbitrary suspicion onto someone. At best this seems like a HORRIBLE plan to sprint us to a loss, and at worst, a tactic to make yourself seem in the clear and create distance. I can't say I'm happy about it either way.

how do I start a bus if there is only two scum, three votes is required for an elim, and one wouldn’t vote themself

That's the idea, though as I explain it, it makes me think maybe this was not your intent, since otherwise you would maybe know. You would be starting a wagon on someone, KNOWING that nobody would vote them because YOU are scum, and then claiming that they're scum because the hammer didn't happen that you **knew** wouldn't happen, because you are the scum. That's the most logical outcome I can think of as to why someone would do that, because otherwise you're just putting high risk on a possible towny and risking immediate loss just on a hunch, which seems terribly unhelpful.

[Elpis]

Oh, that wanted to post twice I guess

[Elpis]

Anyway, wanted to express that I am taking a 6 hour nap, so please don't take inaction during that time as any sort of statement. My suspicions remain as stated before, and I don't feel that I yet find bewolkt as suspicious as I currently do Dragon or Patch. Dragon is pushing really aggressively when we still have 2 full days to discuss, and Patch is honestly just confusing me a little bit at this point. Bewolkt feels a little here and a little not here, and Kanna clearly has a vendetta against dragon and patch as well, so like...

Idk. Dragon voting Bewolkt aggressively makes me think they aren't paired, which makes patch/dragon, or Kanna/dragon options, the latter of which feels like it would be the deception of the century if it were the case, so I really don't think that's the case. Looking at other options, patch/bewolkt could be a thing if patch is actually doing the scum hammer act I detailed prior, but if they are, they're being relatively convincing of otherwise, which makes me think bewolkt is probably a town and dragon is the scum trying to ride the coattails of the original vote from Patch.

Kanna is trying to rally bewolkt and I into an allegiance, which would make sense if kanna/bewolkt were a scum team and I was just being rused along in order for it to make sense, but like...patch doing their odd dangerous votes? Dragon being aggressive with his vote? It just feels a little too wrong.

If your vote maintains, Dragon, i'll probably toss a vote on either you or Patch. If it subsides, I will happily take the time to keep discussing ideas, but I think I am starting to feel somewhat steadfast in my solve, for once.

[Elpis]

Idk. Dragon voting Bewolkt aggressively makes me think they aren't paired, which makes patch/dragon, or Kanna/dragon options, the latter of which feels like it would be the deception of the century if it were the case, so I really don't think that's the case. Looking at other options, patch/bewolkt could be a thing if patch is actually doing the scum hammer act I detailed prior, but if they are, they're being relatively convincing of otherwise, which makes me think

bewolkt is probably a town and dragon is the scum trying to ride the coattails of the original vote from Patch.

How did you get to that conclusion when I declared my intent to vote bewolkt way before patch voted them???
In fact I'm pretty sure patch only voted them because they were convinced by my solve.

Just woke up and now i'm realizing I shouldn't have tried to analyze things while sleep deprived...you're absolutely right. I should've gone back further and read more. Most of that post is probably bad analysis...

[Elpis]

If your vote maintains, Dragon, i'll probably toss a vote on either you or Patch. If it subsides, I will happily take the time to keep discussing ideas, but I think I am starting to feel somewhat steadfast in my solve, for once.

I'm sorry to say Elpis but that's a terrible ultimatum to make and a terrible way to reason if you are town. Do you realize that from my point of view no quickhammer on bewolkt means they are 100% confirmed scum in my eyes? I literally have no interest to unvote.
I am willing to keep discussing but it just doesn't make any sense to unvote them.

Yeah actually that's entirely valid i'm realizing as well. I must've been completely exhausted last night because i'm reading my post and it just seems a little unfounded here and there.

[Elpis]

Dragon, could you please compile some of the scenarios that make you most suspect of Bewolkt? I'd like to understand your perspective more so I can try and form a better analysis here.

[Elpis]

If you've already posted them somewhere else, feel free to quote them, i'm just having some trouble following the lines and would appreciate a redefinition of your thoughts there.

[Elpis]

ya well it's been... 12+ hours since dragon voted bewo so i think it's safe to say a quickhammer isn't coming and there's definitely scum in [dragon, bewo]

elpis, i know you're very careful and i probably don't need to tell you, but please hold your vote and if you ever feel like voting, declare intent with a wide timeframe cause i might have something to say whatever your choice is

apologies for being so overbearing but i hope you understand your vote is also really important to me

I will be sure to do so. I do not intend to be the reason anyone gets voted out quickly unless it's been discussed.

[Elpis]

Okay, I am around, sorry. I had two flights today and just landed and got settled. I just read up to this point, I am down to discuss.

[Elpis]

I think there's been a lot to absorb in all this discussion, and there's a lot from both sides that makes it hard for me to assess this as more than just vibes, as there's likely been a lot of misplays, a lot of just generally suspicious acts from everyone all around, and everyone seems to be a little prickly about the positions they hold and having their stances critiqued and disagreed with. I feel that Kanna is taking an emotion oriented approach, which tends to appeal to me because I am normally a very emotionally oriented person, but i'm trying to keep an open mind and read more than that here.

Dragon, you've been extremely backlashy in your responses, and somewhat aggressive, but also you've put a LOT of work into your Bewolkt analysis, and that should be recognized. Even if there were a lot of aspects I really didn't agree with, I think the effort behind it is commendable.

Patch... I just can't find myself finding a lot of trust in your minimal interactions. I know you're expressing that low interactions=/= scum, but even when you have interacted, I just haven't been able to trust what you've said for a while. I don't know if that's my fault, but I can't tell myself that you're town.

[Elpis]

Kanna, are you around to discuss?

[Elpis]

Ah, and for Bewolkt, I meant to include that more within my Dragon discussing. I think they're largely suspect as at least being a pair in the scum side, probably still close to or on par with dragon in my suspicions. They had a good rebuttal I felt, but I don't know if it sums to full town. This is messy and i'm not confident.

[Elpis]

on second thought, i'll prepare a more cohesive post explaining my thoughts for you, elpis. it won't take too long, but don't wait up for it if you're currently doing that

It's not late for me yet! Only 8 pm

[Elpis]

I am around now, and I am sad about the dragon replace

[Elpis]

As I read through page 68, I was going to get to the end and post that I felt comfortable voting dragon, but as I am at the current, now it seems like you've decided you aren't anymore, so if you feel like patch would be the better choice, or bewolkt, I would fall in line with that. However, I don't know that I really have changed my mind personally on the dragon vote, even if I do enjoy his personality, he still has been focusing a lot of negatives at times that make me suspect, which you pointed out.

[Elpis]

Also, I apologize for being less active as I have been in the past, there's been a lot to be busy over lately, and I don't have access to my desktop, and pure mobile is difficult to keep up on

[Elpis]

I also might be drunk within the hour, so my typing or analysis may become less effective soon

[Elpis]

Lmao, well then maybe i'll provide some excellent top notch analysis

[Elpis]

elpis, did you see my team analysis post? I trust you are town, and if you can trust me, we literally just have to find one town in the trio of [dragon, patch, bewo] to win.

at the moment, I feel like dragon is actually the town here… I’ll go have lunch and then sit down to summarise things

I did! I'm leaning on bewo town personally, but truly it could be any of the 3. Dragon felt too aggressive, and patch feels like they just aren't providing as much as I would like them to. Patch also feels like they're avoiding attention through inaction. I also feel like bewolkt's last post was solid?

[Elpis]

i think i gave bewo too much credit for doing the bare minimum tbh. in general, i am more likely to fos stronger players due to paranoia if people with a low-post playstyle aren't pinging me too much. but that doesn't mean i am more likely to be right that way. in a vacuum, it's not like bewo has towntold enough that he couldn't be scum

i think yeah, dragon's case was too nitpicky because he was trying too hard to be convincing that it actually made bewo look better, however what dragon did still makes sense as town because he already knew bewo was scum. i would rule this 1v1 out as being particularly conclusive either way.

the scumteams

dragon/patch -- i did think this very likely before, but i don't anymore. since elpis you and i did not hammer bewo on e-1, we are confirmed not to be scum with dragon. bewo is also very unlikely to be scum with dragon due to interactions. in the event dragon is limmed and flips scum, his partner is very obviously patch. so that means the only way a dragon/patch team wins if we lim bewo. HOWEVER seeing how strongly i was pushing for dragon, do they really put all their eggs into 1 basket and bank on me not being able to convince you to vote dragon? that seems like a massive risk and i don't think scum would ever put themselves in that kind of position.

dragon/bewo -- very very unlikely due to interactions. that d1 readlist debacle, dragon's super willingness to lim them at other points during the game, and today's 1v1 are genuine to be staged. if it was, then cool, they deserve the win, but i won't vote them just for to that 1% probability.

patch/bewo -- this is probably what's happening. objectively speaking, these two have contributed the least today and a very likely explanation is that they're scum who are happy with the way town is eating itself. this is also really pingy

Would you guys be willing to vote Dragon? I also feel quite unsure of any solve but out of all possible scumpairs that I’m considering Dragon is in most of them

Can we vote Kanna they’re more influency

in both cases, dragon and i presented our scumteams and said that we'd be fine voting for either. in a patch/bewo world, i can definitely see these quotes being a way to subtly push the vote onto a townie instead of their partner for a faster win. the reasons themselves are very vague -- bewo's being "most of my teams have dragon in them" but they haven't expressed any of their teams/thought process so this could just be an excuse. patch's reason is also sort of a cop-out reason i can see being an excuse. lastly, i feel like patch bussing bewo here seems to be the kind of move scum would make to make them seem unaligned. it's a good move and it makes sense.

The two teams you find likely involve bewolkt, so I am inclined to believe we should try to get more information there, or consider voting? It seems like something we would've done naturally if dragon was not replaced, though I wonder if dragon's replacement will give us more information about their identity than perhaps dragon did

[Elpis]

I mean on further consideration....shouldn't we hammer? Isn't bewolkt high suspicion?

[Elpis]

Actually perhaps not...we have a lot of time and want to be certain...sorry, drunk brain isn't thinking enough

[Elpis]

Yeah no worries I wouldn't vote unless you agreed

[Elpis]

misunderstanding sorry -- i meant do you think you've towntold enough that you can't be scum? because i don't think so. although tbf i don't think everyone does that in every towngame they play.

i see, thanks for that. i'll think bout things and let you know if i need more from you. please can you actually vote patch though

Wait...now? Are you saying you want to vote patch currently?

[Elpis]

elpis, i will also not vote unless we've discussed things! and i will always declare "intent" if i ever want to vote

hi mala! 70 pages is a lot to catch up on... how will we do this?

Okay, sounds good

[Elpis]

What is happening lol, don't we want to give the replacement time to catch up and respond?

[Elpis]

I mean, actually I am like one little step from just voting patch. Kanna, what are your thoughts on that?

[Elpis]

I’m lowkey ok wit that solve

I had a rough day so my mind isn’t in mafia rn

Sometimes we all have those days ;-;

[Elpis]

VOTE: Patch

[Elpis]

If i'm honest, by the end I kind of felt closer to townie than I actually was. I even accidentally missed a hammer because I wasn't paying attention

[Elpis]

It's a little satisfying reading through the threads and seeing so minimal suspicion of me! Also for dragon: I didn't push you more early because I wanted to have more faith in me late game. I wanted to appear terribly, terribly innocent.

[Elpis]

elpis you're so wonderfully evil! ;A; i really don't think i would've ever voted you, you should be so so proud

Thank you! I feel like it was a good first game, but a lot of my benefit of the doubt from being new will be absolutely unusable now. I will say though, a lot of the questions I asked during the game WERE actually genuine, not just acts. I had to spend so much time looking up glossary stuff here and there

[Elpis]

kanna was the worst mafi player

Also I do want to add that I think you were a good town, personally

[Elpis]

Wow this was a lot of fun but also a bit frustrating at some points towards the end

Congrats Elpis, you did great and were the MVP and best partner one could hope for!

Likewise, I think we made a wonderful team

[Elpis]

I'm glad that my first game of this was such an engaging experience, I've never played mafia feeling like I had to keep up an act for SO long, since i've only done in person games. This was a really nice unique experience and I definitely might do it again

[Elpis]

I appreciate that you all made it all so engaging and high stakes right from the get-go

[Elpis]

I wasn't lying earlier when I mentioned that in person, I tend to be non-confrontational and malleable to others thoughts, so actually having to hard express suspicions and thoughts was really different for a lot of this, it was pretty fun if very difficult

[Elpis]

Thank you! I hope you don't take my accusations again you to heart patch, I was a little rude to you, but it was purely to give myself a target that people would think to be a little foolish to accuse. I think you played just fine and the posts you had did hold merit many times