Newbie 2114: Life Imitates Art...in Memes! -- End

[bewolkt]

Waking up to this thread

[bewolkt]

Random question: how can I resize an image?

[bewolkt]

I just really suck at generating content in RVS

VOTE: DragonEater70

[bewolkt]

also, lol "generating content in RVS" is sad and baaad

What do you mean?

[bewolkt]

Also though, I think it would be fun to do real introductions. What do you like to do? What got you into mafia? Normally games just get real intense real fast, but I figure for the new folks it might be nice to get to know each other!

Big fan of mafia-like party games but had never played online until few weeks ago, when I joined the site

[bewolkt]

Reagrding my odd post: I was making an intentionally odd post to get reactions, because I like getting good content out of people early rather than having to wait for it.

I'm not completely sure I understand the logic behind this. Would you not get good content out of people just by posting genuine posts instead of making intentionally odd ones? And don't you think this can backtrack on you?
I agree with others that I feel more confident on players that reason their thoughts and try to move the conversation forward, but would also add that I find also suspicious when a player starts toying with others, making "goofy" posts because that ends up making myself unsure about their reasons and more difficult to read tbh

[bewolkt]

I also think it's pretty interesting that you are refusing to elaborate on things in a newbie game. Feels like the town motivated approach is to want to really flesh out your thoughts so people who are new to the site meta will get what you mean.

I disagree. It's a perfectly acceptable and widespread play style to be conservative with one's thoughts. You're imposing your vision of what town should do on me rather than thinking about what town actually does.

.. not really? i think saying thoughts = more posts = more discussion = more contribution = more townhunting = more scumhunting = good

A lot of people can put good thoughts into fewer posts and not necessarily more posts will lead to more contribution or mean that person is townhunting more. Good posts + good thoughts = good

[bewolkt]

Reagrding my odd post: I was making an intentionally odd post to get reactions, because I like getting good content out of people early rather than having to wait for it.

I'm not completely sure I understand the logic behind this. Would you not get good content out of people just by posting genuine posts instead of making intentionally odd ones? And don't you think this can backtrack on you?
I agree with others that I feel more confident on players that reason their thoughts and try to move the conversation forward, but would also add that I find also suspicious when a player starts toying with others, making "goofy" posts because that ends up making myself unsure about their reasons and more difficult to read tbh

Maybe there's a misunderstanding here? I was specifically talking about my first post which is also what I thought Elpis was talking about. I don't see a way to share my genuine thoughts on my first post because I didn't have any genuine thoughts on anyone at that time - my post was the third overall, coming after two posts from you about image formatting. There's nothing to analyze at that point so I tried to make a post worthy of analysis.
I genuinely think I succeeded, too, because we have had much more serious content here on pages 2-3 than some other games had by page 8.
And it did start with people attacking my post, then attacking my attackers, etc.

It was more of a general comment, I wouldn't come with that conclusion just for that post at the beginning. But I have seen players trying to ping others just to provoke a reaction along a game, which may be just aimed at getting a reaction out of others, but I feel it generally makes me less confident and a bit more difficult to discern which posts are genuine and which are just trying to motivate discussion

Very very very tentative, unfinal, prone to change readlist:

Townier than town - Aureal

Townie - Patch

Townie I guess - Elpis

Different levels of Null:
Kawaii
Aero
Ircher

Not really scummy but def not townie: Maestro

Scummy ig - no one

Really scummy - no one

Feel ignored

pedit- I see you addressed it

[bewolkt]

Okay I am going to go forward and VOTE: Bewolkt. This guy has made several posts since the game started, but none of their posts has any opinion stated on any player. If that's not scumlurking, I don't know what is.

I just feel it's a bit difficult to have such strong opinions so early in the game, but when I've questioned some things (like your "goofy" entrance or patchwork's association of more posts=better) it was basically because I thought those things were suspicious. But I will give a more detailed list now, also because I won't be able to post that much during the weekend:

Leaning town

Aureal - Her thoughts seem to be coming from a town perspective and I agree with most of their reasonings
patch - they come off as genuine to me and I like many of their thoughts but tbh there's also a part of me that is a bit puzzled by their way of reasoning. Too many posts which makes it a bit difficult for me to keep track of what their stance is at any moment

Unsure

Ircher - has contributed a bit more than others, and even though I can understand why he might be a bit more conservative, I don't feel I can read him better until he expresses some more thoughts. I don't have the feeling that his 164 is particularly townie and would like him to explain a bit more for example from where does his read on Maestro come from
Aero - they seemed pretty okay to me at first. Also I felt his 91 was in good faith to warn others about a potential lim early in the day. But what has pinged me is the way they've backtracked on Ircher. I don't see what in Ircher's reaction convinces him that is a good to be more conservative (not saying that this is bad by itself, but I am very surprised that Aero bought this after he took a strong stance on this topic)

Null and need more from them

Elpis - feel genuine so far but still need more from this slot
Maestro - I don't see why he's getting so much heat. Many of the points he's made I agree with them so waiting to see more of his thoughts on the game to develop a more grounded read
Kawaii - not much

Main suspect

Dragon - I feel his content has been mostly pushing the more inactive slots and some reactive posts to other player's content, so i'm not sure why he is accusing me from scumlurking. His readlist don't say much to me since I haven't see the reasons behind them. I also don't see from where his read on Maestro comes from or why for example he moved Aero from townread to null then townread again

[bewolkt]

Also, @Bewolkt, you are still voting for dragon. Do you still think they're scum? I liked your discussion with them.regarding reaction posts, but I'm curious about what you're thinking of them and others after that interaction.

Just posted a readlist with some thoughts on him and others. I am happy with my vote but I to vote forward let's VOTE: Elpis

[bewolkt]

Also, @Bewolkt, you are still voting for dragon. Do you still think they're scum? I liked your discussion with them.regarding reaction posts, but I'm curious about what you're thinking of them and others after that interaction.

Just posted a readlist with some thoughts on him and others. I am happy with my vote but I to vote forward let's VOTE: Elpis

but to move forward*

[bewolkt]

In conclusion, Bewolkt, I think your analysis is a pile of bullshit. You are not contributing and you are reading me as scum based on false premises.

So you just accusing me of pushing inactives, and saying that I am your main suspect, but now you are pushing a null slot? How does that make sense at all?

I think bewolkt is pretty scummy atm and hooe you guys join me in voting them.

P.S. I think I did explain my reasoning for the Aero reads but if not: I liked their overall vibes and reasoning. Not sure tbh why I put them into the null category afterward, maybe I just second guessed my read and felt it wasn't based on a lot of substance, but their later play continued the same town vibes from earlier.

I will just quote the last part of the post to make not create a super huge post, but I'll try to address everything you said.

First, I don't know if there has been a misunderstanding here or you are trying to twist what I said. I wanted to say that I don't find very coherent you voting me because "none of their posts has any opinion stated on any player" because I don't feel yours have been high on that. I didn't say it was bad in any way to try to push others to get more output from them (which you are very right it is what I did with my vote) or that is scummy in any way to react to others' interactions with you.

I also acknowledged your readlists, so I don't know why you feel the need to mention them again. I said that they don't give me the reasons why you placed ones higher than others so I can't see why do you townread or scumread other players. Can you explain why you sr Maestro? Also I still find a bit puzzling that Aero went from your top tr to null, but it's fair, I guess our reads are very variable and not very strong right now.

Last, you mention the following 2 posts as examples of you being proactive. I had read both as what I categorized as you 'pushing the more inactive slots': for Aero you praise the engagement of Maestro but say of Aero's that 'is not serious enough' and for me that 'none of their posts has any opinion stated on any player'. So I thought of both as attempts to make us engage more and contribute to the game. It's true that for Aero you say that he's attempting to buddy others, so I'll give you that

I like your engagement tbh. I think Aeronaut on the other hand is not serious enough and ia too fluffy, and deserves a vote for attempting to buddy all the other players.VOTE: Aeronaut

Okay I am going to go forward and VOTE: Bewolkt. This guy has made several posts since the game started, but none of their posts has any opinion stated on any player. If that's not scumlurking, I don't know what is.

[bewolkt]

Can you clarify what you mean here by "to move forward"? What was wrong with keeping your vote on Dragon if you are still happy with it? What do you expect voting Elpis will accomplish here that makes it better than keeping your vote on your scum read Dragon?

I wanted to see more opinions from both kawaii and Elpis and since kawaii already said that they were coming back with their thoughts (still waiting for that) and tried to push Elpis to be more open about their thoughts

[bewolkt]

I thought you removed your vote to avoid having Aero at E-1 like you said. I hadn’t thought before about why you didn’t vote anywhere else tbh but it makes sense that if you’re arguing that the reason for elimination should not be playstyle, then you’re not going to sr Maestro because his playstyle is focusing on the people that do not contribute that much.
Why didn’t you put your vote on another person? It could be that your top sr is still Aero and you didn’t want the conversation to shift to anyone else at that point

[bewolkt]

@kawaii what do think so far?

[bewolkt]

I thought you removed your vote to avoid having Aero at E-1 like you said. I hadn’t thought before about why you didn’t vote anywhere else tbh but it makes sense that if you’re arguing that the reason for elimination should not be playstyle, then you’re not going to sr Maestro because his playstyle is focusing on the people that do not contribute that much.

What leads you to say Maestro's play style is focused on people who don't contribute that much?

His post #87

[bewolkt]

beo- the meat of content is #185, I like the reads but I do want to know what specifically he agrees w/ Maestro, I'm assuming the anti-conservative play thing

Mostly what they said to Dragon about the need to "generate content" which I also didn't like. And to some extent the playstyle thing as well. It always makes me wary when someone accuses other but they say they won't give a reason or don't feel the need to explain why.
But it wasn't that much about his content but that I felt that what they had said didn't warrant those scumreads from others. Now that they've come back I don't really feel that anymore. I'm waiting to see his post with his reads today but I didn't like the way he reacted. I might understand his frustration but it's okay from others to be expecting some more from the player that has not said much and he could just have explained it. This might be just frustration from scum because their wagon isn't dissipating

[bewolkt]

This Kawaii wagon is really bad

I agree that it's not good, but I feel a bit like I was pushed to vote on people I didn't think were scum for the sake of "pushing things along" so I did so. I will undo that now since Kawaii has been posting more

UNVOTE:

Who do you think are the more likely mafia/scum team right now?

[bewolkt]

I thought you removed your vote to avoid having Aero at E-1 like you said. I hadn’t thought before about why you didn’t vote anywhere else tbh but it makes sense that if you’re arguing that the reason for elimination should not be playstyle, then you’re not going to sr Maestro because his playstyle is focusing on the people that do not contribute that much.

What leads you to say Maestro's play style is focused on people who don't contribute that much?

His post #87

Maestro has also basically not contributed anything since that post. So I don't know how to take that seriously. There's no indication he even knows I'm in this game, that's how little he's given us. I've been trying to give him some time since he did indicate he had something going on this week, but it's Sunday afternoon now, over three full days since his last post. If I'd known prods don't happen on weekends in this game I don't know if I'd have been so lenient but I think I've wasted enough time waiting now and I'm just going to VOTE: Maestro.

As for the not voting him earlier thing, it was a combination of things. I unvoted to avoid Aero being E-1 and didn't think to vote someone else right away since my focus was on avoiding the possibility of a quickhammer. After a little while I remembered what I'd thought about Maestro, but decided to hold off a while to see if anyone poked me about it. Nobody did, so I decided to use it to poke other people for opinions; and came to the conclusion that our scum are probably not very active/aggressive, or have already decided they don't want to bother trying to cast shade on me. Which also leads me to be more willing to vote Maestro here.

Yeah, I understand what you mean. But maybe they were just away? I'm curious about how you feel about Maestro now that they've come back.
And about the last paragraph: don't you think town should have picked up on it as well?

[bewolkt]

2. Why aren't you paying attention to me? Do you really have no thoughts on my alignment?

I know this wasn't aimed ta me but tbh you are probably the hardest olayer to read this game, exceot maybe Kawaii.

Very much agree with this. @Ircher, would you give us some of your thoughts on the game?

I would like to encourage people to use their vote more actively! The game is stagnating because there is no momentum. To generate momentum, we need wagons.

And how did you use your vote actively to generate momentum through the game? You were on Maestro the whole time

[bewolkt]

VOTE: Maestro. I don't see their bitterness/frustration as anything positive like others have said. I found it much more different the way others like Dragon/Elpis/kawaii have acted when being pushed/questioned and in this case I still don't see him being collaborative or trying to help the game move along

[bewolkt]

I feel like it'd be the opposite, but I'm not really experienced enough to speak on that.

I appreciate you expressing this, though

i mean yeah sometimes scum actgs really overdefensively but for me it doesn't feel like it's coming from scum? the frustration reads very very genuine and it's not even that overdefensive considering they were like, the biggest wagon for some time

He was the biggest wagon at some point but so were others and they reacted more genuine as town to my eyes while also being frustrated and defensive as well

[bewolkt]

tbh towniest post so far from elpis but aureal/elpis is a possible pairing

Why do you think this?

[bewolkt]

UNVOTE:

[bewolkt]

tbh towniest post so far from elpis but aureal/elpis is a possible pairing

Why do you think this?

idk, it's just a vibe thing

I think I was not clear enough with my question. I was wondering where do you see the aureal+elpis association (sorry if you already explained this, but I don't remember you doing it)

[bewolkt]

bewolkt: the first content post in their iso is their readlist in 185 which i don't love. the worst read imo was dragon's because it does seem ridiculous to have him as your main suspect with reasons like "pushing the more inactive slots and some reactive posts to other player's content" (this isn't scum-indicative) and "His readlist don't say much to me since I haven't see the reasons behind them."-- how is the fact that someone's readlist doesn't have reasons a reason to scumread someone? their last line is also bad since it seems to be just not understanding something they did (and there's no reason why that specific discrepancy is scummy). i totally understood and agreed with dragon's jump on this. i'm also not sure why they voted elpis when dragon is their main suspect. it's weird.

if i'm understanding correctly, they later explain that they didn't say these things were scummy but dragon was their main *suspect* because they didn't understand the the things they mentioned. i do kinda understand this but.... idk i don't think i like it. their other posts don't say anything significant i don't think -- just kind of is there. one thing to note though, is how quickly they were willing to vote maestro after my first readlist. they could've easily faked inactivity then so they could see how the winds would blow if they were partners so that leads me to believe they aren't.

I agree with your reads on patch and elpis, but regarding myself, you're wrong on the reasons I voted Dragon then. My main reason was that he was pointing players saying that they were scumlurking and not giving their opinions on others and I pointed out that he was doing the same to my eyes. Not because pushing others, being reactive or giving readlists without reasons is bad (and I said that as well and I have been doing some of those) but that he didn't give me the reasons and opinions of those and he was asking others for theirs.
To your second part I didn't jump to vote Maestro after your readlist when I had already expressed in 323 before you entered the game that I was already finding his behaviour scummy. I said I would wait to see his thoughts as he promised and because he keep going with the same and not giving anything I voted them

[bewolkt]

I guess I'm just feeling like you'd have to be pretty stupid to claim a PR in the setup as scum.

why do you think this? isn't it pretty common practice to claim pr as scum to draw out the town prs?

If you think maestro/andante claimed PR as scum to out the town's PRs why do you think then that it is best that she fully claims so that the town PRs are outed?

[bewolkt]

Leaning town
Aureal - Her thoughts seem to be coming from a town perspective and I agree with most of their reasonings
patch - they come off as genuine to me and I like many of their thoughts but tbh there's also a part of me that is a bit puzzled by their way of reasoning. Too many posts which makes it a bit difficult for me to keep track of what their stance is at any moment

and like, pulling up the joint ISO of bewolkt and patch, the 2 have just about no interactions with each other, and if you're only leaning 2 people town, why aren't you talking with them both to see where their head is at? cause before this, it's a bunch of patch and whatever with aero/aurel (I'm not sure what happened, but I see patch quoting like every post and responding to something)

I don't believe that you genuinely town lean patch, and patch really seems to be avoiding interacting with you tbh 413 is bewolkt's attempt to start getting actual interactions, and patch just shrugs it off like "idk vibes" (legit post... 422)


So I'm sitting here, like, yes, obviously I'm tunneled on these 2 right now, but I see a bunch of posts from patch jointing this aero/aureal thing, but then when patch is asked about their thoughts on something they said... it's just "idk" this is seriously feeling like patch and bewolkt are partners, and patch doesn't really care about interacting with bewolkt, cause they're trying to get towncred with the town or something? idk the reasoning, but yeah, I'm 100% confident this is the scum team tbh

I am townreading patch because we have a previous game together where they were acting similarly. I agree that they are not the player that contributes the most or the clearest, but I still haven't seen anything that pinges as they not acting like their usual self. I know that this is not a reason good enough to be sure about someone's alignment and I'm open to that changing later when we get more information, but as of now they still feel genuine to me
Regarding our interactions I would have to ISO both to check but I feel patch has reacted to many of my posts like they usually do with others? And for myself I feel that the amount of interaction that I've put on patch is quite similar to what I've been having with others, so I feel maybe you're indeed a bit tunneled here

[bewolkt]

To your second part I didn't jump to vote Maestro after your readlist when I had already expressed in 323 before you entered the game that I was already finding his behaviour scummy. I said I would wait to see his thoughts as he promised and because he keep going with the same and not giving anything I voted them

You're misunderstanding Kanna, they made a point in your favor about how if you were Maestro's scum partner you wouldn't have voted them, but you did and rather quickly.

Yes I know they said it as a "positive" thing in their scumread since they were also scumreading that slot. I just wanted to make clear that their readlist wasn't in any way a motivation for my vote and that I was ready to do it before, regardless of what he thinks of that slot.

But yeah I am also more inclined to believe they are really town. It's possible that it is a fake PR claim just stay alive but after their content I doubt it.

[bewolkt]

new list!
[dragon, patchwork, aureal, kawaii]
[elpis]
[bewolkt]
[aero]
[maestro]

Why am I so high to you, and why is maestro so low? Happy we in union with elpsis being town, did you scumread beowolkt b4? Aero feels low to me lemme reread your reads

Does the fact that you both agree on Elpis being town mean that you find Kanna less scummy? Why are you happy being in agreement with your scumread? I think that might be more of a red flag than anything else
Also, what are your thoughts on Dragon at the moment?

[bewolkt]

one comment i read on this page was “it’ll let scum know what setup we are in” — yes that is true. but I don’t think that knowledge is as much of a benefit to scum as it sounds on paper. at least I can’t think of a way i could use it as scum to massively swing the tide in my favour. I’ll invite anyone reading this to think on this in case I’m missing something though — put yourself in scum’s shoes. If say you know the prs are a jailkeeper and a friendly neighbour (or whatever combination), how will that change how you play the game going forward? since I can’t think of the inherent benefit of scum knowing the setup, I consider this point negligible

What? I also think in principle that there should not have been a claim. Unless we were in column C there is the potential of having a protective PR that would protect Andante so he wouldn't be killed anyway and we would have more information at later days
Now I think Andante did well in claiming because a Tracker won't be killed anyway because they can be protected so there is no loss. But with other roles that's not the case and you shouldn't have encouraged that imo. I think the chances of fakeclaiming as scum were low (why would she risk doing that?) so it feels you were just trying to out her to get more info for scum
VOTE: kanna

[bewolkt]

new list!
[dragon, patchwork, aureal, kawaii]
[elpis]
[bewolkt]
[aero]
[maestro]

Why am I so high to you, and why is maestro so low? Happy we in union with elpsis being town, did you scumread beowolkt b4? Aero feels low to me lemme reread your reads

Does the fact that you both agree on Elpis being town mean that you find Kanna less scummy? Why are you happy being in agreement with your scumread? I think that might be more of a red flag than anything else
Also, what are your thoughts on Dragon at the moment?

@kawaii can you answer this?

[bewolkt]

Really surprised by the claim. I was starting to scumread Kawaii...

Still feeling it shouldn't have been necessary to fully claim since now scum are fully aware of the setting and I'm surprised no one else was against it

[bewolkt]

Okay I'm re-reading the full claim/not claim situation and I'm trying to reassess the situation and make sense of it:

So first there was the initial soft claim. If Andante were scum, that could have already been risky since there was the possibility of being outed by masons if there were in the game. After that, I believe there was no as much pressure on Andante as there was before, so I don't think he was in that much danger anymore. There was still some push for a full claim and he did claim Tracker.

this means if mafia know we are in column c, they have the potential to claim doctor or tracker and *not* be counterclaimed. but mafia also have a risk as they choose the wrong option out of doctor or tracker, they will still be counterclaimed. cop counterclaims tracker and jailkeeper counterclaims doctor. and of course mason counterclaims both because they know if they exist, we must be in a3 or c3.

Kanna kept pushing to out the other PR (I'm using PR here as any role that is not a townie since I've seen some discussion over what is/isn't a PR). I was disagreeing with that reasoning but it is true that if Andante was scum and knew we were in column C, and they were already aware that there were no masons, it would be a 50/50 chance with a false doctor/tracker claim. But for Kanna to think we could be in column C and Andante would have gambled for 1 setting there... That's a big jump imo if you have no information. But given this, if Kanna is scum then we are for sure in column A, because if she knew we were in column C she didn't need any more info because there would be no other roles to protect Andante.

I’m sorry but that wasn’t a good gambit like, from what I’ve seen scum usually claim pr when they’re in trouble so a ~vague pr~ claim certainly wasn’t going to make me townread you, and then tracker is probably also the most scummy pr to claim alongside doctor cause those are the only two fake claims scum can use. actually, tracker *is* the scummiest pr to claim because a cop has to be outed to counterclaim it. so for scum, it’s like you either survive by guessing the right cell or draw out the cop (both of which are good) or you’re just unlucky and there are masons.

Also I kind of disagree here going back to it. If Andante's gambit had been "Either I survive or out the cop" they would have claimed tracker from the beginning. They softclaimed first which was an "only survive" type of claim and then they were pushed into full claiming. It was really the push from the rest that went to draw out the other PR.

a vague cc is perfectly acceptable

bewolkt
Aureal -- no cc
Elpis
DragonEater70 -- no cc? please confirm
patchwork -- no cc? please confirm
KawaiiKame -- no cc? please confirm
Kanna -- no cc
Andante
Aeronaut

That being said, it is also true that she wasn't pushing to really counterclaim but just to get confirmation that there were no one that could counterclaim it, which is more town. But I have the feeling that even if no one had counterclaimed she would still be thinking that was just Andante guessing the setup somehow, so there was not really another out of this than the full claim.

[bewolkt]

Just woke up and got on, it seems like I've missed a LOT, reeling a bit to try and take everything in.

So, Andante claimed tracker-- but is actually a mason with kawaii, and did so to try and bait people who knew the setup? How would people know the setup? Having a little trouble following but I think I understand the general idea. That seems worrisome as information to have out on day 1, because the benefit of masons is mostly later in a game, right?

As for the vote on Kanna, I'm not very comfortable with the idea, especially since they seemed to just be trying to analyze and push Andante for some information, but I also can see that people have set their sights on the latest information rather than past, and intend to try to information gather through Kanna's elimination maybe? If the choice is between Kanna, and Aureal, though, I would be more inclined to vote against Kanna. Aureal has felt really heavily town for me the whole game, and I don't really understand where the suspicions are coming from in that regard. However, I may do another ISO of her soon to see if I've missed something there.

Personally, I am leaning towards a patch/aero scum team, but that's still a work in progress feeling, and I'm not confident.

I don't feel it has to be necessarily between Kanna and Aureal. I would like to hear more from Aero as well. I felt they were much more active and they contributed a lot (and in a good way) at the beginning but he faded away lately, which makes me suspect a little bit tbh

[bewolkt]

Tell you the truth, your analysis is a fair one but I feel we're not going to get very far with setup talk RN. I think we should focus on scum hunting, which is not something we actually have a lot of time to do. I thought it might be Aureal, I do have doubts, would like to hear your opinions.
Further, someone suggested it might be Aero and I'm open to the possibility and will ISO them, but also want to hear your opinion on that slot.

About Aureal I'm still feeling town. I'm trying to be cautious because in the previous game I played I was townreading someone too much and then I was wrong so I'm trying to not make the same mistake now and keep my eyes open. It's true that I'm not super sure about her being town, but I still don't see anything that makes me very suspicious.
The only thing that I found a bit weird was the asking others about their own vote. I didn't understand very well the purpose and at some point I thought it might have been scum trying to look more townie by just pointing at her own minor inconsistencies. But other than that most of her posts seem to be trying to contribute in the good direction and coming from her own perspective

[bewolkt]

well fuck me with a rusty chainsaw
we literally have four hours and i don't think i'm gonna be on for any of it

We have 40 hours so please help along

[bewolkt]

So in conclusion, Aero thought that Ircher voting Maestro was completely fake, was thinking that I was scum, and still liked the Maestro wagon and called it organic? And why would you like a wagon you think a scum is pushing? What?

Well the first post comes from RVS and the others comes from much later in the day, and I don't really see any inconsistencies there, probably his read on Ircher changed

[bewolkt]

it's super easy in the mafia to conf bias yourself and think you're right just because one thing went your way

Can you explain what you mean here? I think I sort of understand it but at the same time, I feel it's very normal to look for potential associations. Like the way Dragon is explaining why they think flipping Aureal would be valuable to them given that they consider her associations with other players

[bewolkt]

i am inclined to vote aureal here. i really liked alisae's comments and suddenly feel like the game makes sense now

and if it's aureal, elpis is probably her partner

Where do you see the Elpis - Aureal connection?

[bewolkt]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

UNVOTE: Andante I guess. Honestly, I felt a little uncomfortable with the way Kanna was talking about people being willing to eliminate the slot, felt a little like trying to push the narrative that it was inevitable and I kinda wanted to unvote at least temporarily to at least make sure Maestro continued to talk. His case on patch was interesting and I can't say it doesn't resonate with some feelings I've had; I kinda felt that sort of thing starting with when patch seemed to agree with me that it was unnecessarily risky to e-1 people early then promptly put Aero at e-1. However, his last few posts were mega WTF, like he was trying to screw with us, so I still feel pretty bad about the slot.

Given the claim I suppose it's best to see what a new day brings in that regard. But it feels bad to go after patch either at this point. The way Maestro started to case them and it promptly got picked up by the replacement makes me worry that Andante saw plans of the sort for a patch push in the scum PT. And I don't know that I agree with the reasoning about lack of interaction. Heck, I'm not sure I've really interacted with some slots, I'd have to check isos to better judge.

I'm not really sure what direction to go at this point, I'll need to do a little more thinking and poking at things.

VOTE: aureal

Why you voting aureal in this unvoting andante post?

So yeah, Aureal is unvoting Andante because they are claimed PR, but in this post she's still thinking Andante is scum. Therefore it being an "unvoting andante post" doesn't make it a townpost for Aureal at all.

Why are you explaining Alisae's vote?

[bewolkt]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

UNVOTE: Andante I guess. Honestly, I felt a little uncomfortable with the way Kanna was talking about people being willing to eliminate the slot, felt a little like trying to push the narrative that it was inevitable and I kinda wanted to unvote at least temporarily to at least make sure Maestro continued to talk. His case on patch was interesting and I can't say it doesn't resonate with some feelings I've had; I kinda felt that sort of thing starting with when patch seemed to agree with me that it was unnecessarily risky to e-1 people early then promptly put Aero at e-1. However, his last few posts were mega WTF, like he was trying to screw with us, so I still feel pretty bad about the slot.

Given the claim I suppose it's best to see what a new day brings in that regard. But it feels bad to go after patch either at this point. The way Maestro started to case them and it promptly got picked up by the replacement makes me worry that Andante saw plans of the sort for a patch push in the scum PT. And I don't know that I agree with the reasoning about lack of interaction. Heck, I'm not sure I've really interacted with some slots, I'd have to check isos to better judge.

I'm not really sure what direction to go at this point, I'll need to do a little more thinking and poking at things.

VOTE: aureal

Why you voting aureal in this unvoting andante post?

So yeah, Aureal is unvoting Andante because they are claimed PR, but in this post she's still thinking Andante is scum. Therefore it being an "unvoting andante post" doesn't make it a townpost for Aureal at all.

Why are you explaining Alisae's vote?

What alignment do you think this comes from?

Do you mean what Dragon is doing here? I think if he is mistaken and is trying to justify a vote that it's not his, this is town. I guess scum would be more aware of their interactions and wouldn't have made that error

[bewolkt]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

UNVOTE: Andante I guess. Honestly, I felt a little uncomfortable with the way Kanna was talking about people being willing to eliminate the slot, felt a little like trying to push the narrative that it was inevitable and I kinda wanted to unvote at least temporarily to at least make sure Maestro continued to talk. His case on patch was interesting and I can't say it doesn't resonate with some feelings I've had; I kinda felt that sort of thing starting with when patch seemed to agree with me that it was unnecessarily risky to e-1 people early then promptly put Aero at e-1. However, his last few posts were mega WTF, like he was trying to screw with us, so I still feel pretty bad about the slot.

Given the claim I suppose it's best to see what a new day brings in that regard. But it feels bad to go after patch either at this point. The way Maestro started to case them and it promptly got picked up by the replacement makes me worry that Andante saw plans of the sort for a patch push in the scum PT. And I don't know that I agree with the reasoning about lack of interaction. Heck, I'm not sure I've really interacted with some slots, I'd have to check isos to better judge.

I'm not really sure what direction to go at this point, I'll need to do a little more thinking and poking at things.

VOTE: aureal

Why you voting aureal in this unvoting andante post?

So yeah, Aureal is unvoting Andante because they are claimed PR, but in this post she's still thinking Andante is scum. Therefore it being an "unvoting andante post" doesn't make it a townpost for Aureal at all.

Why are you explaining Alisae's vote?

I'm explaining why Kawaii shouldn't assume that an unvote = Aureal town. IDK, maybe Alisae can explain it better.

Okay maybe I misunderstood it. I thought Kawaii was asking Alisae why did they vote Aureal based on that post. Then you answered which I thought it was a mistake from you thinking that the vote was yours and not Alisae's

[bewolkt]

Hi everyone!

There has been a lot of content in the last few hours. It was Saturday night here in Europe that's why I wasn't here since I had plans + sleep. I will give a list with my reads to explain where I'm at right now but just wanted to address first that I feel the push on me it's mostly motivated on:

- My amount/style of posting: Maybe I should be posting more random thoughts and stuff to increase my post counts idk. I like to question others on things that I feel will advance the game and I don't have a problem with giving my thoughts when I'm question about them. But I also don't like to accuse others if I'm unsure and in general at day 1 I feel I'm mostly trying to figure out the other players. That's why I relate for example to Kawaii in that I also think she feels similarly but I understand that some frustration might come out of it (like I was at one point starting to suspect her). In any case, anyone can have a look if you want at my two completed games here: Newbie 2110 (full completed game) and Newbie 2113 (where I entered as a replacement in D1). I was also poked there for some reasons that are similar so feel free to take a look at them if you'd like.

- My association with Aureal: I can't believe people are scumreading me because we were both townreading each other at some point. Not because I even defended her or anything. But what I'm most baffled by it's that this is coming from someone that posted 732 and 733. Don't look for pre-flip associations but at the same time I warn you that I am going to be hypocritical and use the associations to prove 2 are wolves.

I think it's pretty easy to look for what one thinks wolves do instead of what wolves actually do because identifying what wolves actually do is really hard! It takes a lot of experience and understanding of the game to be able to identify why it is someone is a wolf and it's really easy to posts support one alignment in reality it doesn't and it's something that can happen as any alignment

So if Aureal and me are wolves, why are we doing that?

[bewolkt]

Oh yeah, and bewolkt failing to say anything about me other than asking "why Aureal and Elpis" is really pinging me. Everyone and their mom are trying to 'meta' read me based off of one game even though I explained that I react to the game I'm in. Meanwhile bewolkt actually played a game as town with me, unlike Alisae and Andante who played with me as scum and thus weren't really trying to read me. And bewolkt hasn't offered any comment, one way or another, not even a "I don't feel like I can meta-read Aureal." Which would be perfectly appropriate. But sound wishy washy.

It's true that I didn't say it explicitly but my townread on you it's in a big way based on the previous game we played together. What I meant in 647 is that I was afraid about townreading you too much because in our other game you were very obviously town to me (until I got confused by a potential association and I panicked, why is the same I think it's happening to some players here). So maybe now I was following that feeling too much but and maybe now you were scum.
But yes, I hadn't felt any big difference with the way you played on both. The only time that you felt a bit off for me was with the 'Why didn't I vote Maestro?' thing. That felt a bit strange to me

[bewolkt]

yeah that whole thing is just.. nothing lol also, why explain the unsure more than town leans?? if for any reason other than to "hide" your partner...

hmm here's like one of the few posts of "stuff" I'm not super impressed, definitely can see bewolkt + aero team with this, cause your early read on a partner is not going to be strong scum or strong town, feels like a lot of explaining for "unsure" like, why unsure over null? like, you're putting unsure above null... as if to imply the null are scummier? well.. 2 of the null are masons..

I wanted to make a difference between players that I was unsure about their alignment (I saw things that made me tr them but also some that I found suspicious) and those players that I felt I could not have formed a read on them and I needed to hear more from them. It's not necessarily that one is above the other or anything. And because of that I explained more the unsure because I had conflicted feelings about them so I elaborated a bit on them while on the others it was more 'need more', 'feeling good'...

also, bewolkt's list comes after dragon gave a list.... scum tend to start copying lists when others do them...

VOTE: Bewolkt

And I gave my list because Dragon wanted me to contribute more, so I explained where I was at that moment. But if that hadn't happened I probably wouldn't have done that at that point

[bewolkt]

The bewolkt thing is just a restatement, but it does have some validity, even if it's extremely brief. Bewolkt needs to talk more and be involved more, and I want to know their thoughts on Alisae thus far.

I'll re-read a bit and then I will post my updated list of thoughts

[bewolkt]

Updated reads

Town

Kawaii + Andante

confirmed masons

Dragon

he is trying to solve and I feel his push on Aureal feels really townie even if I think they are a bit tunneled and getting swayed a bit by Alisae. They are swinging a lot which feels natural as well. The only thing I'm a bit confused by is on his stance on Kanna. They were suspecting her and seeing a possible association with Aureal but they also locktown her at the same time. Based on some of his other interactions I guess it's mostly based on that he buys the whole claim thing and they're in agreement about the Aureal push, but still makes me wary about a potential association here

Null-town

Elpis

Still feeling good about this even though some of their posts seem a bit too vague to me. But I very much relate to that feeling and I can see from where their reluctance comes from. Also I find very townie that they didn't jump at Aureal like others and they feel like they're trying to think independently. Also their comments on Alisae seem pretty spot on to me

Aureal

I feel her exchange with Dragon is town vs town. I think there's a lot of nitpicking in both sides, like 740 and 791, but I don't think in any case those are meaningful reasons to scumread each other and they are getting a bit defensive. Like they are getting frustrated at each other from being accused based on semantic things and misunderstandings so they are going after the other, but none of that seems to me really indicative on either's alignment.
I also still don't see the big inconsistencies in her posting like others are saying. I relate very much with her frustration on Alisae. I would like her to expand her thoughts on what they've been doing since their entrance, because I think that will be very valuable for town.

patch

I wish we could hear more from them because that's my main complain. I'm willing to give them the benefit of doubt because I still feel they were townie and I want to believe they are really busy. But I can't discard the possibility of them just trying to fade away and don't have any attention on them.

Scum

Kanna

I put Kanna first even though they are my main scumread but I think it's better if I explain this first. I dropped the talk about the PR claim after 641 and tried to focus on something else but I still don't understand why others don't give more importance to this since this is the most important thing that has happened that is actual game information because there has not been a flip yet. I was also scumreading reading Maestro at that point as well but moved away with the claim so I still don't see why others didn't backtracked that even if I think there were enough reasons to suspect that slot before. I still think that what happened was one of a) we are in column A and she was trying to find first the setting and later the Jailkeeper (most likely) or b) we are in column C so she was surprised by the fake Tracker claim so she was surprised since that is not possible and she was trying to find a cc or more info.
After that I don't see that much other than they jumped into the aureal train which is not really unexpected since she was a big wagon and this fits her perfectly since the heat is moving somewhere else

Alisae

I think they have a potential association with Kanna. They came in and started to move the conversation to others. She has doubted everyone else in play (Aureal, Elpis, Dragon, patch, me) but not Kanna and her response to my accusations on her are things like "this is so bad", "nooooo", "not buying this". I would like to see some real thoughts on why that doesn't make sense.
Also not a fan of how they talk like they're showing others how to play the game and that it's so obvious, something that also Maestro was doing. In this case I think it's sort of working because other players are also not really questioning her and her motives.
After pushing mostly Aureal and to some extent also me, then they're also like "I'm not picking sides", "I'm open minded to be wrong". On the other posts I don't really feel that they are not very certain of their comments and it feels to me that they're pushing the conversation towards where they want but at the same time keeping their options open so that after the flip they didn't look like they were pushing so much.

So for me the flip that I think it will give more information remains Kanna, also because of the fast vote that patch put on her before dissapearing.

[bewolkt]

But I do understand placing Kanna relatively towny, because I do agree on that front, even if some questionable choices have been made.

Which are the questionable choices?

[bewolkt]

Let me ask you this question: what is your suggested scumteam, if it's not you and Aureal?

Don't know if you had time to read my full list, but at this point it's Kanna/Alisae. At this point the only thing that gives me pause it's that I believe Alisae doesn't seem a player that would defend her teammate so openly, but maybe she did it just out of necessity.
Waiting to see what else patch has to say warming up more and more to them, after conveniently coming here to jump into my wagon after being also in the Kanna wagon. But now apparently my conclusions don't make sense anymore?

[bewolkt]

pedit - but I am warming up*

[bewolkt]

after conveniently coming here to jump into my wagon after being also in the Kanna wagon

sorry wtf does this mean lol

That you also voted Kanna after the PR claim thing but now I am sticking to my vote and that's somehow a lmao conclusion?

[bewolkt]

Would you have given it at any point though?

Yes of course. I also don't have any problem to give my thoughts on anything at each moment. But I wouldn't have made such a list so early since I try to not give that much importance to the reads on RVS and I feel much changes and I need much more to solve (and even now I'm not even sure that what I have it's the solve, but it's the best I can do now). Now I'm getting a lot of heat for it for being open/vague but it was very early on the game

[bewolkt]

i dont understand you sorry

Ok can you explain why did you vote Kanna in 613? And why do you want to vote for me now?

[bewolkt]

i voted kanna because i didn't have time to think about the game and i thought we were nearing deadline (was going by the timer on pg1) lmao

Okay sorry I did not see that you already posted this

[bewolkt]

So do you have time now to think about the game? Will you give us your readlist?

[bewolkt]

Okay guys do you know what we need?
We actually need to work together.
I feel we are extremely dispersed as town with more or less everyone doing their own team and no agreement is being reached.

Please have a look at this link (it's a pretty short read):
viewtopic.php?t=90488

I think we should do what this guy says and elect a town leader who will just choose a lim and we all agree beforehand to follow the lim.
I'm nominating myself and Andante.
You guys can vote for whoever you want to be townleader.

This is very interesting. But wouldn't it be the same? Us having to do majority voting to choose a leader? Do you think we won't be disperse for that? But if I had to choose it would probably be one of the Masons since they are already confirmed town

[bewolkt]

Like the reactions from town (I'm not considering Kawaii and Andante here because they're masons) are all different from one another, but the reactions from wolves are very similar and look like capitalizing on the situation.

I think this is a fair and interesting analysis, but I would swap Dragon and patch there tbh. At least Dragon had expressed some doubt about Aureal before, so his push felt somewhat more consistent. It was Kanna and Patch both who swapped their reads from before to join you after your push

i am inclined to vote aureal here. i really liked alisae's comments and suddenly feel like the game makes sense now

i vibe with alisae, i like their reads and their vibes and the way the play

[bewolkt]

Wow...

Your town
You made a mistake.
It's fine.

Why are you so sure patch is town and it was a mistake?

[bewolkt]

Very much agree with thinking things through. D2 went by too fast.

Will try to post a more detailed analysis later but still my main sus is Kanna, I feel she took advantage of any situation she was involved since the push on D1

[bewolkt]

Going to read Kanna's theories now, but first:
Patch, where did you think Alisae was trying to pocket you? I'm having a look at D2 and I'm not really seeing any of that

lisae are you trying to pocket me ??y?
VOTE: alisae

FUCK
IM SORRY I ONLY READ UP TO LIKE PAGE 49 IM SORRY MAN
WHY DOES THIS KEEP HAPPENING
PEDIY: I WONT

[bewolkt]

Anyway I thought Maestro's scumread on Patch was bs and clearly based on not knowing patch's meta. However rn I think Patch is more likely than not to be scum due to the hammers and weird behavior towards the end of D1.
And also saying "my bad fir not contributing" is actually SAI for Patch because in the other game (wehre they were town) they actually got really upset when it was implied they were not conteibuting (IIRC, I might actually be wrong here, I am too tired to actually go check their ISO on the other game).

Agree with this. In the previous game we played together patch was also accused of posting a lot but not contributing but they kept posting a lot. And at one point it's okay but this has been going on since D1 so it seems too much.
Also I ISOed Patch in this game and in the other we played together and they didn't throw any votes in a "funny" way like they did with Alisae at any point in the other games (unless it was at the beginning of D1) so that makes me their vote now much more strange

[bewolkt]

Anyway I thought Maestro's scumread on Patch was bs and clearly based on not knowing patch's meta. However rn I think Patch is more likely than not to be scum due to the hammers and weird behavior towards the end of D1.
And also saying "my bad fir not contributing" is actually SAI for Patch because in the other game (wehre they were town) they actually got really upset when it was implied they were not conteibuting (IIRC, I might actually be wrong here, I am too tired to actually go check their ISO on the other game).

Agree with this. In the previous game we played together patch was also accused of posting a lot but not contributing but they kept posting a lot. And at one point it's okay but this has been going on since D1 so it seems too much.
Also I ISOed Patch in this game and in the other we played together and they didn't throw any votes in a "funny" way like they did with Alisae at any point in the other games (unless it was at the beginning of D1) so that makes me their vote now much more strange

[bewolkt]

I’ll be back for more

I am legit going to give it my ALL this elo because I really feel so bad for pretty much being 3rd scum this whole game. bewo and elpis, PLEASE engage with me and let me try to convince you.

I am CONFIDENT I’ll be able to explain anything because I have the truth on my side!

p.s I just love how dragon is flip flopping between trying to accuse me/discredit me but not really sure how to say I’m scum. it’s ok! I still love you even if you’re scum dragon! I was very comfy in your pocket <3

Aren't you also trying to pocket me a bit here?

Tbh the strongest argument I see in your analysis is on how you and patch shouldn't be together, which makes me re-evaluate everything because I feel both of you are suspicious individually.
And you are very right that the case that is the weakest is on why you and dragon can be together. Especially your D2 was very similar and I guess you are going to say that you were pocketed but I can also see you as scum getting behind bigger players that suited your interests

I'm also a bit surprised by your entrance now because on D2 you had a similar apology to Aureal but in that case you didn't want any discussion to happen

[bewolkt]

Aren't you also trying to pocket me a bit here?

Tbh the strongest argument I see in your analysis is on how you and patch shouldn't be together, which makes me re-evaluate everything because I feel both of you are suspicious individually.
And you are very right that the case that is the weakest is on why you and dragon can be together. Especially your D2 was very similar and I guess you are going to say that you were pocketed but I can also see you as scum getting behind bigger players that suited your interests

I'm also a bit surprised by your entrance now because on D2 you had a similar apology to Aureal but in that case you didn't want any discussion to happen

oh i am absolutely trying to appeal to you. because i'm desperate and i can't help it. but i suppose you could say i'd be desperate as both town or scum so it's nai. best to just read my logic.

and what do you mean by the last sentence?

A bit what Alisae was saying on 1301. Now you've entered D3 also with a strong theory like in D2

it took me 3 days, 2 mislims and 2 complete scum team theories…..but this time, I’ve got it for real…

i also see the light now. and i deeply regret yesterday.

But in this case you're asking us to be calm and debate. Couldn't this that you accuse Dragon of doing also apply to you?

and does it not just make a lot of sense that scum!patch hammered alisae because they were gunning for dragon? alisae is indeed very Strong and left unattended, I think they might’ve been able to turn the lim towards dragon. so patch hammered them. you can also see dragon’s relief later on which I believe is genuine — dragon really could not outargue alisae

[bewolkt]

i'm still not super sure what you're trying to say sorry. if you're saying why i enter the days differently, it's because i am human and my emotions go up and down. on d1 with aureal, i wanted to give her time to talk especially since i wasn't exactly sure what her stance on things was. and then on d2 i feel like alisae had made their opinions clear enough and i was annoyed at how they approached things. um i guess if you want evidence that i am actually kind of trigger happy, i actually do have evidence on that?

about the second point, are you saying like patch could've also hammered ali for me in the world where we were a team? the answer is yes. although maybe not as much as ali was gunning for dragon instead of me so i could let him get limmed and then blame ali for it the next day? anyway this is just speculation. my main point there was i'm not saying that's direct evidence they are a team i'm saying "that makes sense if they were a team"

Sorry that that wasn't clear. I was wondering why on D2 you did not want that discussion to happen like you did on D1 and D3.
And then I was wondering whether the answer was that you didn't want Alisae to keep pushing you since she was very strong like you are saying. I kinda disagree that the main push from Alisae was only Dragon. I feel they had more interaction with Dragon because he engaged more but Alisae was pushing both as a team, but maybe I should revisit that

[bewolkt]

You're right that what I posted was not your entrance, my apologies. In any case, I am not saying anything about a possible patch association here, it was just about the reasons for your vote there.
And regarding Alisae's push there's all of 1229, 1243, 1252, and then everything that came after your vote

[bewolkt]

Not sure what my point is, just please realize that this is not what bewo was saying so you shouldn't be defending that.

i reread the question and i still *think* i answered it correctly? like alisae wanted you over me so there's probs not as much reason for patch to hammer for me. but i admit, i do have a bit of difficulty understanding bewo's posts sometimes. not really sure why that is

if bewo wants clarification, they can ask me again though!

Sorry if it wasn't clear (I guess I am not the best expressing some thoughts in English). I didn't mean that Patch hammered because they are partners with you, but that you want to get the day over quickly because you were afraid of Alisae (the same that you are accusing Patch of doing in defense of Dragon I think you could have wanted to do it for yourself). Hope that makes more sense

i am very touched you still townread me <3 and i also i appreciate you for trying to explain yourself. but what ali pointed out was a massive scumsli-level red flag so i don't think i will be changing my mind. i have also done my background research (the details of which i forgot) but there are reasons why a lot of other teams don't work to me. i won't share them here cause i don't think it's necessary -- bewo and elpis

both know we're not aligned

and teams involving them are more for me to figure out. if they ask though, i will share

You mean we're not aligned with you or that you are not aligned with Dragon?
To be honest I don't think any possible team would surprise me. The only one that I think is really not likely is Kanna/Patch, but any of the others sort of makes sense to me in a way. I feel during the game most of the attention went to certain players so it's very difficult to analyze any interactions between others and most information comes from the lims. Like there was never really any push for Dragon, Elpis or Patch. I can't rule out any combinations between these players as scumteam since I don't really know how they would have acted in case they saw the possibility of the other teammate getting eliminated. I feel the interactions/analysis that Kanna posted are very weak evidence and somehow I feel I can make a case to convince myself on most possible combinations of players

[bewolkt]

But I will say that if I were to vote right now I think I would go for Kanna. I was feeling it since D1 and I haven't seen anything to prove me otherwise at any point. I think they are looking much better in D3 than they have done at any point in the game vs Patch that is looking much worse. But I don't know if I should let vibes guide me at this point of the game where there are facts that tell me otherwise.

But from past interactions I am not sure who would it be her most likely partner between Dragon/Elpis. Even now that they are pushing Dragon I feel it could be a play to distance themselves

[bewolkt]

@Kanna do you have a previous game where you have played as wolf that I can take a look into?

[bewolkt]

its definitely a play for distance :/ like honestly i didn't even bother to read, just saw they were pushing each other and me and just clicked off

Did you have time to consider the game? What do you think?

[bewolkt]

Sorry if it wasn't clear (I guess I am not the best expressing some thoughts in English). I didn't mean that Patch hammered because they are partners with you, but that you want to get the day over quickly because you were afraid of Alisae (the same that you are accusing Patch of doing in defense of Dragon I think you could have wanted to do it for yourself). Hope that makes more sense

was just thinking about this again and i wanted to add that if i was scum with dragon, it would be risky for me to vote alisae as i'd have no idea patch would come in and lolhammer. me voting alisae without the hammer (and maybe elpis getting nervous about e-1 and unvoting) would only anger them and make them come after me more, no?

Yes this makes sense, and it's sort of what happened, that you triggered Alisae more (I wonder how that dead thread is looking atm). It would only make sense if you are partners with patch

I feel the interactions/analysis that Kanna posted are very weak evidence and somehow I feel I can make a case to convince myself on most possible combinations of players

also i do agree some of the things i've pointed out isn't strong evidence but it does point to certain things being less likely than other things. especially if there is no strong reason to think another way, we should look at what is more likely. mafia is all about that, isn't it?

Indeed but I feel you are too convinced on your solve that you are discarding other possible pairs to give more strength to your solve, but you can't discard them so easily. Do you think there's a possibility only one of Dragon/Patch is wolf?

[bewolkt]

I disagree that Patch is fitting with their meta, at least from my experience. Beginning of D1 they were very aligned to me but then when the lims started to happen and when he was being pushed for being absent they had a completely different reaction in this game than in the other we've played together (and in that one they were also at some point busy with things irl).

And this fit very well with this post from the game he linked

trying to change my meta. in 2112 i was sheeping too much and primarily independent on other people who i townread, which is a bad strategy, in 2113 i was generally shit at contributing and reacted only defensively, which didn't help my case when i got tunneled.
during this game, i'm trying for more of a balance, especially because the setup is different. i'm better at townhunting than i am at scumhunting, so i'm doing that first and finding people who i townread to rally with, but i'm also trying to promote discussion and get more reads on other players more this game as well.

[bewolkt]

Also I find odd that anyone can think that Kanna and I are partners in this game after I've spend most of the game pushing her while most people didn't

[bewolkt]

Would you guys be willing to vote Dragon? I also feel quite unsure of any solve but out of all possible scumpairs that I’m considering Dragon is in most of them

[bewolkt]

VOTE: dragon if dragon doesn't get quickhammered he's scum

That's such a fucking stupid test.
But there's no way Patch is scum after this.

lol why?

[bewolkt]

VOTE: dragon if dragon doesn't get quickhammered he's scum

That's such a fucking stupid test.
But there's no way Patch is scum after this.

lol why?

This btw is not a towny post. Town don't react this way. Especially not to people they scumread.
But scum do it as a way to subtly throw shade and appear like they are participating.

I just don't see why you would see that and think that automatically makes Patch a townie, unless somehow it serves your purpose in some way. If you think they are town, it can happen that they thought of trying that and then thought it was not a good experiment and then unvoted. Fair. But it can also be coming from scum that's trying to show that they might be willing to vote for you, but they really don't since they unvoted immediately after.

And that's totally how I would react to people I scumread. If you were more townie to my eyes I would try to convince you that what you said it's not true.

[bewolkt]

VOTE: dragon if dragon doesn't get quickhammered he's scum

That's such a fucking stupid test.
But there's no way Patch is scum after this.

lol why?

This btw is not a towny post. Town don't react this way. Especially not to people they scumread.
But scum do it as a way to subtly throw shade and appear like they are participating.

And that's totally how I would react to people I scumread.

If you were more townie to my eyes I would try to convince you that what you said it's not true.

That's a weird fucking sentence. Why would town!you want to convince town!me that Patch isn't townie, based on that post???
Town normally query posts like 1551, with an open mind. They don't try to convince people they are wrong like that and they don't say "lol why".

But I'm not trying to convince you. Because I'm feeling you are trying to present things in a way that suits you. But if I thought you were town I would try to convince you yes.

[bewolkt]

VOTE: dragon if dragon doesn't get quickhammered he's scum

That's such a fucking stupid test.
But there's no way Patch is scum after this.

lol why?

This btw is not a towny post. Town don't react this way. Especially not to people they scumread.
But scum do it as a way to subtly throw shade and appear like they are participating.

And that's totally how I would react to people I scumread.

If you were more townie to my eyes I would try to convince you that what you said it's not true.

That's a weird fucking sentence. Why would town!you want to convince town!me that Patch isn't townie, based on that post???
Town normally query posts like 1551, with an open mind. They don't try to convince people they are wrong like that and they don't say "lol why".

But I'm not trying to convince you. Because I'm feeling you are trying to present things in a way that suits you. But if I thought you were town I would try to convince you yes.

[bewolkt]

Sorry for not posting that much lately but it is really busy irl for me right now so I can't give the game that much, but I will give my thoughts on the game in case anyone wants to consider them and discuss.

Of course it's clear to me that Dragon is a wolf with his vote and the way he's pushing me. I am still unsure about the partner because honestly I see all possible pairs having a shot of happening, but some seem more likely than others:

-

Patch

: Kanna already did a good analysis on why they might be together. If you add to that the way they are transitioning towards being aligned now at the end of the day, the Dragon quickvote (which could be very well have being made to distance themselves) and that he was always pushing more for Kanna out of his Kanna/Dragon makes me think they might be the scumpair
-

Elpis

: It's definitely a possibility seeing the way they interact between each other. Always polite interactions, with some level of shading at some points, also some defending at others but never really going for each other in any way. Feels like the way of going if you are not going to make a big play out of the interactions of the scumteam. But I asked about whether others would be willing to vote Dragon and he seemed open to the possibility which makes him less likely to my eyes.
-

Kanna

: I also feel this is not very likely based on the way Kanna has been pushing Dragon, but the way Dragon was saying Kanna and him had distanced themselves pinged me. Almost like he was trying to manifest that into the others and trying to push a possible patch lim. But based on their recent interactions I would discard this and if indeed they are together then congrats because you are doing an amazing job

So I would go patch>elpis>kanna in any way as Dragon's partner

[bewolkt]

Regarding Dragon's accusations for my early game:

There was some doubt expressed before about my interactions at that point. I already gave an explanation about it. It is very true that I didn't come with hot takes about everything and was trying to figure out the other players. I tend to not give that much weight to get reads based on the posts that happen at that early stage unless they come from a player with who I have already played before so I know a little bit their way of playing. And yes I acknowledge that and have no problem admitting that my goal was to try to figure out other players and then use these interactions later when we have more information in D2 (or with things like the PR claims). Maybe when I get more experience and I

KNOW

like others whether every post is townie or not I will do it, but I doubt it. I understand that you have to lim me to win, but I hope others do not fall for these arguments from authority in this or other games because it's basically the reason we've ended at this point. But it's still frustrating to see that thrown to my face and used against me when I've tried to keep an open mindset and always question others about their reasons to do something instead of accusing when I was unsure.

In any case, I still encourage others to have a look at my previous games to see that.

- My amount/style of posting: Maybe I should be posting more random thoughts and stuff to increase my post counts idk. I like to question others on things that I feel will advance the game and I don't have a problem with giving my thoughts when I'm question about them. But I also don't like to accuse others if I'm unsure and in general at day 1 I feel I'm mostly trying to figure out the other players. That's why I relate for example to Kawaii in that I also think she feels similarly but I understand that some frustration might come out of it (like I was at one point starting to suspect her). In any case, anyone can have a look if you want at my two completed games here: Newbie 2110 (full completed game) and Newbie 2113 (where I entered as a replacement in D1). I was also poked there for some reasons that are similar so feel free to take a look at them if you'd like.

Regarding the specific posts he quoted: I can't believe that I was the FIRST post in the game, saw the theme and entered with a related meme and that's somehow scummy. No one else had even said anything to comment. In my previous game someone made a bit of a deal out of me for entering saying 'Hi everyone!' so I feel that there's no way I can win. And about why I voted for someone else I already explained as well that I was trying to get more info out of those slots because I needed that to start forming a read on them, because I didn't pretend to have the solve on page 5

[bewolkt]

So Patch's play fits with their town meta when bewolkt wants to blend in, but doesn't fit when bewolkt wants an excuse to push Patch?

You still try to twist my words even when the explanation is there. For all the others:
- patch during first part of D1: does the same type of commenting, plays in the same way, has the same type of reactions that they had during our previous game together == fits my meta
- patch after the end of D1 started approaching: they start participating much less, they start just throwing votes, hammers twice "accidentally" == does not fit my meta

I even say that in my post and I didn't try to paint it otherwise. And it wasn't really a push for patch since he wasn't my main target at that point. I was giving my thought as you were saying that patch had the same meta to other games. You were even called out for that

Patch - Honestly in reading their ISO, they have so much town vibes it's incredible. Their meta is virtually identical to another game we played where they were a VT as well. I think it's unfair to scumread them based on inactivity. The hammer on Alisae is hella weird but it's possible it was actually an honest mistake I guess.

lol what's with "patch doesn't fit meta" and then a total 180

Dude I've been meta townreading you the whole game except for the lolhammer and for you saying "you my bad for not contributing"

And I also find funny you talking about nitpicking when you are still going over my readlist on page 5 when even yourself said that you understood my reasoning. But I guess that's not useful for you now

So, if I'm honest, I actually thought Bewolk v Dragon comes out with Bewolk looking a lot better. Right now, it kind of feels like you're putting in a lot of effort into discredit this scumcase on you, and less effort into pushing others. Your reads list had nobody in the scumpile. A lot of townreads and no scumreads really pings me, because calling someone scum is more likely to make them question you, and will force you to have a really solid case on that.

I also think it's sort of interesting that you mentioned that Bewolk is "reading [you] as scum based on false premises", which would imply you think he's town making a mistake. A few lines later though, you'll telling us that you think he's definitely scum.

Well I generally assume people are town unless proven otherwise, so yeah I said bewolkt was reading me as scum even though it did feel potentially fabricated. He dis later explain it and I can see how it came about as a legitimate read.

[bewolkt]

(while ignoring the substance of my push against them, I might add)

What is the substance of your post? Please let me know and I'll address it. I just hope it's not just a list of my posts with a "It's scummy" message on top of it

I could believe that they unvoted to let Maestro's replacemebt talk, but then I would expect them to either revote or say "yeah I'm convinced"/"I changed my mind" or anything similar. But they just abandon the wagon completely.

I unvoted because there was a PR claim. And lol at you saying that I didn't say anything after about it and then you later quote a post where I talk about it. What are you trying to do? In the post below I am saying that I was scumreading Maestro but after the content of the replacement I found it convincing and that I didn't think there was a fake PR claim. And what's that? Maybe me engaging with the content of the game?

To your second part I didn't jump to vote Maestro after your readlist when I had already expressed in 323 before you entered the game that I was already finding his behaviour scummy. I said I would wait to see his thoughts as he promised and because he keep going with the same and not giving anything I voted them

You're misunderstanding Kanna, they made a point in your favor about how if you were Maestro's scum partner you wouldn't have voted them, but you did and rather quickly.

Yes I know they said it as a "positive" thing in their scumread since they were also scumreading that slot. I just wanted to make clear that their readlist wasn't in any way a motivation for my vote and that I was ready to do it before, regardless of what he thinks of that slot.

But yeah I am also more inclined to believe they are really town. It's possible that it is a fake PR claim just stay alive but after their content I doubt it.

[bewolkt]

Remember how Andante called out Kanna for knowing that there's no Tracker? Aka being informed scum?

Why would bewolkt ever come up with this idea when nobody CC'd Andante in the first place? Unless they know Andante HAD to fake the claim since they know the setup???

Which idea? I still maintain that there should not have been a push to out the PRs and that we should have let that self resolve since that gave scum the information of the setup we are in and if not we probably would still have a PR alive. That's the opposite of what I would try to do as scum, I would have tried to know whether I could have killed that slot that night.

Btw bewolkt's reasoning that I am lying now because I did believe their explanation earlier is such bullshit, when bewolkt, Kanna and Alisae have all changed their reads about me and/or patch. Don't tell me I'm allowed to disbelieve something I once believed, in light of new evidence.

And again some word twisting. Of course you are allowed to change your reads like we all do with new information. I just pointed out the hypocrisy when you were accusing me of changing my thoughts about Patch to benefit my interests (which didn't even happen, they were just developed as the game evolved), while you have changed yours as well now that you want to lim me

Also if you notice bewolkt can't even scum case me. They can't even say how I'm scummy. They just "think" I am. And Kanna can only "prove" she's unaligned and "prove" the only solve that works is me and patch, but where is the actual evidence against me? Where are my scummy posts?

And I don't have to think it anymore. Since you voted me and no one jumped with you it's basically confirmed from my POV that you are scum. If anyone wants more info from me they can ask, but Alisae and Kanna have put it very well before me. I was a bit tunneled before but indeed it was all true

[bewolkt]

Well I'm going to bed but I guess we're ready to vote anyway. But if anyone wants me to address anything I can do it tomorrow

VOTE: Dragon

[bewolkt]

Ah, and for Bewolkt, I meant to include that more within my Dragon discussing. I think they're largely suspect as at least being a pair in the scum side, probably still close to or on par with dragon in my suspicions. They had a good rebuttal I felt, but I don't know if it sums to full town. This is messy and i'm not confident.

Idk, their rebuttal basically consisted of taking every point I made and saying "not true". They haven't given any counter evidence or anything.

I think I've answered all points you made providing evidence where you were obviously fabricating things and explaining my feelings and my intentions otherwise. You made your case about me not being absolute in my reads at the beginning of the game and every post you quoted in your case are first half D1 posts and I've already explained what was my mindset at that point. The only recent post you referred to is the one about patch's playstyle and I've explained that as well.

But please, if any of Kanna, Elpis think they need more info from me, please ask away

[bewolkt]

i think i gave bewo too much credit for doing the bare minimum tbh. in general, i am more likely to fos stronger players due to paranoia if people with a low-post playstyle aren't pinging me too much. but that doesn't mean i am more likely to be right that way.

in a vacuum, it's not like bewo has towntold enough that he couldn't be scum

i think yeah, dragon's case was too nitpicky because he was trying too hard to be convincing that it actually made bewo look better, however what dragon did still makes sense as town because he already knew bewo was scum. i would rule this 1v1 out as being particularly conclusive either way.

the scumteams

dragon/patch -- i did think this very likely before, but i don't anymore. since elpis you and i did not hammer bewo on e-1, we are confirmed not to be scum with dragon. bewo is also very unlikely to be scum with dragon due to interactions. in the event dragon is limmed and flips scum, his partner is very obviously patch. so that means the only way a dragon/patch team wins if we lim bewo. HOWEVER seeing how strongly i was pushing for dragon, do they really put all their eggs into 1 basket and bank on me not being able to convince you to vote dragon? that seems like a massive risk and i don't think scum would ever put themselves in that kind of position.

dragon/bewo -- very very unlikely due to interactions. that d1 readlist debacle, dragon's super willingness to lim them at other points during the game, and today's 1v1 are genuine to be staged. if it was, then cool, they deserve the win, but i won't vote them just for to that 1% probability.

patch/bewo -- this is probably what's happening. objectively speaking, these two have contributed the least today and a very likely explanation is that they're scum who are happy with the way town is eating itself. this is also really pingy

Would you guys be willing to vote Dragon? I also feel quite unsure of any solve but out of all possible scumpairs that I’m considering Dragon is in most of them

Can we vote Kanna they’re more influency

in both cases, dragon and i presented our scumteams and said that we'd be fine voting for either. in a patch/bewo world, i can definitely see these quotes being a way to subtly push the vote onto a townie instead of their partner for a faster win. the reasons themselves are very vague -- bewo's being "most of my teams have dragon in them" but they haven't expressed any of their teams/thought process so this could just be an excuse. patch's reason is also sort of a cop-out reason i can see being an excuse. lastly, i feel like patch bussing bewo here seems to be the kind of move scum would make to make them seem unaligned. it's a good move and it makes sense.

why not? Please I have already said that if you need more info from me you can ask me. I want to engage and to convince you

I would say you should not make reads based on activity because that's basically what Dragon wanted to do when he shifted to do a push on me mostly but also on Elpis at some point. I didn't make a big case to convince you about Dragon because I am busy and you already went through it at the beginning of D3, so I thought it was not necessary but I can do it if you feel you need it.

Regarding why I wanted to go for Dragon: I think I already said that I didn't think Kanna/Patch and Elpis/Patch were possible scumpairs but I thought it was possible that Dragon was scum with every other player and also I thought a Kanna/Elpis pair was a possibility, so I preferred to go for Dragon not really because I believed in your solve, but because I thought he was most likely scum. It's not that I believed in your solve at the moment (because I thought it was quite possible you and dragon were together) but that it was really what I would have voted at that stage. I also thought it was good to test the reactions of the other players to a possible Dragon push so I made the question. Then Elpis was the only one to show true willingness to vote for Dragon, so that made him less likely to be paired with him to me. But then the whole change from Dragon came and everything opened.

And yes I am sure now that it's a Patch/Dragon team so I would vote whoever of them you want me to vote

[bewolkt]

Why do you think Dragon made such an effort to convince you if he thought you were scum? His solve on 1554 wasn't that *I* was scum, but that 100% sure *you and I* were scum together. I was much more reluctant with him because I thought his defense of Patch was ridiculous so then he went for me anyway. He knew he just needed one more lim so he kept his options open with both of you and Elpis.

He also wasn't town for not waiting for your reaction before putting a potentially game-ending vote on me. If he had been town he would have waited to be sure because if he had been wrong, scum would have eliminated me, but he knew that wasn't happening

[bewolkt]

Also, can someone explain to me what happened for Dragon to ask for a replacement? Honest question

[bewolkt]

why not? Please I have already said that if you need more info from me you can ask me. I want to engage and to convince you

I would say you should not make reads based on activity because that's basically what Dragon wanted to do when he shifted to do a push on me mostly but also on Elpis at some point. I didn't make a big case to convince you about Dragon because I am busy and you already went through it at the beginning of D3, so I thought it was not necessary but I can do it if you feel you need it.

Regarding why I wanted to go for Dragon: I think I already said that I didn't think Kanna/Patch and Elpis/Patch were possible scumpairs but I thought it was possible that Dragon was scum with every other player and also I thought a Kanna/Elpis pair was a possibility, so I preferred to go for Dragon not really because I believed in your solve, but because I thought he was most likely scum. It's not that I believed in your solve at the moment (because I thought it was quite possible you and dragon were together) but that it was really what I would have voted at that stage. I also thought it was good to test the reactions of the other players to a possible Dragon push so I made the question. Then Elpis was the only one to show true willingness to vote for Dragon, so that made him less likely to be paired with him to me. But then the whole change from Dragon came and everything opened.

And yes I am sure now that it's a Patch/Dragon team so I would vote whoever of them you want me to vote

do you think you have?

but sure, i'm open to talk.

can i ask why you didn't think patch/elpis was likely? and can you expand on why you thought dragon was most likely scum? iirc, you came into the day thinking it was me/patch

and ok cool. i was tentatively thinking limming patch might be the move today because i'm having trouble being able to tell who's town between you/dragon but i don't think you can be scum together -- your interactions were too genuine. so that makes patch lockscum fmpov. i'm not planning on doing this just yet though, it's just an idea.

I think I have?

If anyone wants more info from me they can ask

But if anyone wants me to address anything I can do it tomorrow

But please, if any of Kanna, Elpis think they need more info from me, please ask away

Regarding the other points: I thought Elpis/Patch was not likely because when you were offering Elpis the Dragon/Patch solution, he wanted to go for Patch more than for Dragon, which made me think that if he was aligned with any of them it was Dragon.

Why I thought Dragon was the most likely scum: out of all the possibilities I was considering Dragon was in 3/4 (a bit the same that you were doing before with Dragon/Patch/me):
- Kanna/Elpis
- Dragon/Elpis
- Dragon/Patch
- Dragon/Kanna
That's what I meant with that out of all my possible solves Dragon was in most of them

[bewolkt]

misunderstanding sorry -- i meant do you think you've towntold enough that you can't be scum? because i don't think so. although tbf i don't think everyone does that in every towngame they play.

i see, thanks for that. i'll think bout things and let you know if i need more from you. please can you actually vote patch though

What do you mean if I towntold enough? I'm not sure that's for me to tell, I think it should be the others, so I guess the answer is not according to you. I don't find possible to assess oneself like Dragon was doing saying that some of his own comments were obviously townie and some of the others weren't

And I guess you want me to vote Patch to make sure I would be willing to vote them? No problem then VOTE: Patch

[bewolkt]

I will UNVOTE: as well until everyone is ready to vote

[bewolkt]

VOTE: Patch

[bewolkt]

Wow this was a lot of fun but also a bit frustrating at some points towards the end

Congrats Elpis, you did great and were the MVP and best partner one could hope for!

[bewolkt]

And good to know about Dragon's replacement, I was a bit worried and puzzled about that. I any case, why him getting a notification about Kanna's PT meant that he knew Kanna was innocent?

And thanks to the mods! The topic was also a lot of fun