Newbie 2117 | Postgame

[Deltabreedy]

Give me 30 mins to catch up and we'll see ey

[Deltabreedy]

Brian's back-and-forth with Mala seems pretty contrived. Apparently not being here is NAI, but confirming and then not posting is, when there is a variety of slots that have been pretty inactive? The back-and-forth between Mala and Brian reads to me like it's activity for the sake of activity, because yeah it's very valid to say 'I don't like that', but for it to develop into a bit of bickering feels manufactured rather than natural, when you consider as well that their vote still rests on

Andante

. I'm a bit 50/50 on whether it's TvT or SvT, but the implications that come off the back of these two things I don't particularly like.

Also I get bad vibes from Andante because of the pretty vocal appeal to emotion over the course of D1 so far - I think in a setting I'm used to, in a vocal setting I wouldn't read it in this way, but it's being typed out and I think it's perhaps a bit more than I would expect from someone going to E-2. That said, I can appreciate the frustration from the manner in which Brian placed the vote and then dipped for a bit. I don't see the Brian scumclaim and I haven't seen an explanation of the read - could that be provided?

Brzeczyszczykiewicz's posts rub me the wrong way. Chao's post I find basically says what I wanted to say about it.

Python I'm unsure about because I agree with just about everything they say.
I town-read Black because they're saying some things that run contrary to what they were saying last game (and you better believe I read your ISO twice, Black).

Everyone else is a gelatinous blob of nullreads.

D1 Andante asked a few questions, happy to answer:

how long yall have been playing mafia

10 years or so on and off, about 8 years since I last trifled with forum mafia, and since then various IRL games and I also play/mod TTS Mafia sessions with friends sometimes.

your favorite role or alignment to be

In a 'normal' game, probably mafia goon - Me and my wits and the ability to deceive against everybody (I read Politics at University, figures). In an open? Jester/Joker/Fool.

and pronouns to call you by

He/Him (I also prefer Delta or Tom to my actual full name on the site).

Ninja'd by a whole game (some things never change).

[Deltabreedy]

On reading a second time I like Chao's post and that bumps them up a notch to a townread.

[Deltabreedy]

I don't know how I feel about Blue's posts, I don't think there's been any great addition to the game so far and it feels a smidge tunnelly on Chao. I do agree with the comments in response to Brian's posts, but they've also asked for commentary on Brian without any commentary themselves, just rebuttals.

VOTE: BlueSnakelet

Ninja'd: Black don't make me tunnel you

[Deltabreedy]

@Blue: Why is it so important that Chao gives you their thoughts on Brian, when you're yet to clearly indicate your own thoughts on them?

[Deltabreedy]

I think it does look like an overreaction, but I also know that I've been guilty of the same in the past. Like I say Black, in voice I wouldn't read it as such, over text where things are very deliberately typed and spelt out and it takes minutes to construct, rather than a split-second to go 'Oi!' I'm struggling with how to balance that out as a read.

I'd be keen on hearing your opinion.

Ninja'd: Yeah I would rather they answer for themselves, but then after that I'd like to hear what you were thinking the reasonings were.

[Deltabreedy]

I'm going to have to insist - what are your thoughts on Brian. I think I understand why you're waiting on Chao's side, but if it's what I think it is then there's no gambit or benefit to us all from keeping it under wraps.

[Deltabreedy]

It's pretty scummy that you're straight-up evading the question.

I need your thoughts on Brian, not in a day, not an hour before the deadline - you're here now and clearly you have some.

[Deltabreedy]

I don't think so. Apart from a fairly spotty view on Chao, Blue (Blue's slot, in fact) hasn't contributed anything of note, and I don't know how they feel, not only about Brian, but about yourself Black, about me, about Python, and everyone else in the game.

So yeah, with the slot having gone 4 days without saying anything of note, I think it's pretty reasonable to insist that they offer something.

[Deltabreedy]

It's an extension of the idea that the slot has contributed minimally for 4 days. I disagree with the assertion that Chao has to answer Blue's question, before Blue contributes to the game.

So I'm asking about Brian because that's an SR I have, but give us

something

.

Ninja'd: Unless you also have a SR on Chao, I disagree that Chao's answer has to come before Blue's.

And the slot has been gone for 4 days, and in the 2 days since replacing in, there's been barely anything. I want contribution, I want reads and I think having Blue's contribution tied to another player answering what seems to be a pretty vague question is frustrating at best, and pretty anti-town at worst.

Ninja'd: For context Mala, I'm saying that the reason Brian gives for pushing your slot is contrived.

[Deltabreedy]

I disagree Mala, I think I have an understanding of who you have SR's on or misgivings about - I don't have any from Blue because they're voting Chao whilst also 'Townreading [his] latest developments' in #313.

To be honest the only critique I could offer is that you aren't using your vote, but I expect that would change over the next day or so as you get acclimated to the game like myself.

[Deltabreedy]

Right?

[Deltabreedy]

Yeah go on then.

UNVOTE: Blue
VOTE: Brian

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E-1

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You've gone from 'TBD' to 'willing to hammer' pretty rapidly there.

[Deltabreedy]

UNVOTE: Brian Skies
VOTE: BlueSnakelet

Open to hammering someone without sharing barely anything in 2-3 days of gametime (4 for the slot). Nah, that doesn't come from Town. All this cloak and dagger BS doesn't sit well with me and I find it highly scummy that someone is willing to end D1 so early without even sharing their thoughts on people.

I'd encourage several more people to vote this slot and apply some real pressure with me here.

[Deltabreedy]

Okay fair enough - Delta

Blindy

over here. My bad

UNVOTE: BlueSnakelet

Your last post does suggest that if you were to have Chao answer you, that you would then be willing to hammer on Brian - which I found highly suspect given my missing of your readslist.

[Deltabreedy]

I think until a new person comes in for that slot, pressure there is perhaps not being applied in the best place.

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VOTE: Brian

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I agree with Black that on looking back Blue comes out towny from that interaction - on reflection I think my distaste for it and SR of it has been more of a playstyle clash than owt else.

[Deltabreedy]

Thats fair. I don't agree with every point in your ISO analysis of them but I can see the basis of the push.

What would it take for you to rejoin the Brian vote?

I find their self-referential meta usage in #341 from

almost ten years ago

to be pretty odd, not neccessarily NAI but is it really relevant or is it just noise? It semi-contradicts what Brian says in #265:

I only use meta to check a player's playstyle or check to see if they've done a specific action/behavior as either alignment. I'm not the type of player that presents a case on 'meta'. If I ever do this, you should policy me.

It's not a case, but then if you follow the thread of what Brian says, their own #341 seems to be a really weird post that I don't really understand? It's either NAI or Scum-Indicative but I don't see a townsperson saying 'You should policy me for using meta', then referencing their own meta.

[Deltabreedy]

EBWOP

On line three:
'... not neccessarily

AI

'

Additionally, I get the sense that in response to the wagon forming to E-1, Brian's response was kind of nothing? It's just really odd and I'd like to see something a little more general because it appears to me that Brian has gotten away so far in D1 with using lots of words to say very little. An ISO doesn't indicate to me their thoughts on anyone other than Mala and Andante, beyond an ISO on my slot which was just a wall of quotes and a vague assertion at game-solving.

Listen I might be wrong on this and I'm wary of tunnelling (although Black knows I should probably commit more to my tunnels) but can someone critique this and pick holes in what I'm saying? I'm just getting real scumvibes from Brian.

[Deltabreedy]

@Mala

Why are you still voting Black? Do you SR them?

[Deltabreedy]

I get bad vibes from how quick Black jumped back after the replacement. They think that the 'slot' is scum, according to #370. I was honestly expecting them to be a bit more rooted in for voting that slot and I get weird vibes from how that plays out.

[Deltabreedy]

If the slot is scum, how does a replacement shake your faith in that read to the extent that you'll jump back onto the wagon?

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If the slot (

Brz

)is scum, how does a replacement shake your faith in that read to the extent that you'll jump back onto the (

Brian Skies

) wagon?

Edited for clarity.

[Deltabreedy]

I didn't say I scumread you, I said I got bad vibes from it.

[Deltabreedy]

@Andante - That doesn't make sense. You make two points in #383:

1. That the replacement should be given a chance to speak and contribute. (

I agree with this.

)
2. That there's no point racing towards a lim right now. (

I also agree with this.

)

What doesn't make sense is that Black's actions align with point 1, but then jumped onto a wagon putting it to E-2, Blue puts it to E-1 and there's no commentary on it beyond what seems to be 'I disagree with this'. No thoughts on what's happened there at all?

For context, I replaced Wiz, and Blue replaced Nothing's New.

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That reaction to such a small comment is awful to be honest, Black.

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How have you jumped from 'you haven't commented on what's happened with the wagon', to me thinking you want to lim Black?

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I mean, look where my vote is - if I wanted to lim Black I'd tunnel in on them and not let up. I just think their reaction in the last page has been a really odd one.

[Deltabreedy]

I also kind of don't like that response from Blue. It feels more reactionary and I feel like it's the kind of question someone would ask to judge the read on themselves than a genuine interest in the read, because Mala didn't indicate that they actually thought anyone on the wagon was scum? To assume that Mala suspects any of the people on the wagon seems to be an assumption that town wouldn't have.

[Deltabreedy]

It doesn't read as proactive and game-solving/scum hunting. It reads as a reaction.

[Deltabreedy]

379 is immediately followed up with a query in 380, and furthermore was a post that saw something I didn't agree with, outlined it and allowed 380 to query it.

Your post didn't do this, and seemed more concerned with identifying a scumread on you than anything else.

[Deltabreedy]

Is it the most interesting topic at the moment? Not really and doesn't help us at all. You're pressuring a slot that is completely inactive at the moment and haven't given any comment on the things that are happening.

You got riled at Brian putting a vote on you without justification, I'm sure you wouldn't then go on to do the same thing, would you?

I don't like it.

[Deltabreedy]

The above (#405) is in response to Andante's #402. Mb.

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Am I the only one sat here wondering if that's it?

[Deltabreedy]

18 Pages and we've cracked how Mafia works.

Can we get a readslist from you Kawaii? Your slot hasn't said anything for basically 4 days and it'd be pretty useful to see where your head's at.

Ninja'd by Brian: Can you justify that view or are you going to leave it in isolation?

[Deltabreedy]

*snip*

well yes, I know I am town, and internally it feels like I have failed my 1 job as town here, cause someone is SRing me, and I'm trying everything in my power to make it clear to the other town here that I am town

This feels town to me, feeling that she failed as town with this reaction, if I'm being manipulated with this holy fuck I will feel stupid but this feels genuine, I'm not seeing the WIF0M Black is seeing

*snip*

Town's 1 job is to find scum, not to avoid getting scumread. I disagree with the base premise from which you're deriving this townread.

[Deltabreedy]

Town's 1 job is to find scum, not to avoid getting scumread. I disagree with the base premise from which you're deriving this townread.

Disagree. Town wins by consistently limming every member of the mafia, which is a two part process:

1. Limming scum
   
2. Not limming town

In other words town has two paths to victory:

1. Correctly identify scum and lim them
   
2. Correctly identify town and lim everyone but them

In this setup that can be done through the entire town either identifying a correct 5-person townbloc with no scum or a correct 4-person scumbloc containing every scum, either way not getting unnecessarily scumread as town helps with that because being in the townbloc and not being in the scumbloc reduces the amount of people others need to sort correctly by one (since you know you're town).

I don't disagree with this, but the primary objective and methodology that you mention here is that it's Limming Scum, and Correctly identifying Scum.

I don't think town's 1 job is to appear town, and I think a townread that comes from that base assertion is weak, and not backed up by the primary motivation of town, which is to eliminate threats to the town.

[Deltabreedy]

I've not given enough credit for #430. I disagree with the premise of the townread but I agree with the wider post, I think it scores townpoints.

[Deltabreedy]

Hey if you want to give me towncredit for Kawaii's post, I shan't stop you

[Deltabreedy]

Bear with - I've started my first day at work (that jobberino I got last game with you ey) so will be a few hours before I can get a comprehensive list to you with justifications and the like.

Short-term:

Town

Me
Black (Dangerous!)
Python
Kawaii
Andante
Everyone else
Brian

Scum

[Deltabreedy]

Undecided

[Deltabreedy]

Or Null, rather

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I don't read into meta, I think it's pointless and as a playstyle decision I'll die on this hill.

[Deltabreedy]

Eh, we disagree. Black's proven that they've got the wherewithal to lie, manipulate and deceive if they want. I think people are more capable of playing to/against their meta at will that are given credit for, so I certainly won't be invoking meta on her.

If it informs part of your read sure, but if it informed someone's whole read on someone, that'd concern me.

Ninja'd: but no comment on Mala's post.

[Deltabreedy]

We're over 75% of the way through D1 and I feel like basically nothing has happened, honestly I read that statement more as town because it's exploring ideas - it's not a post that Scum!Black -needs- to make at this point, and if it were Scum!Black trying to dissuade the Brian wagon, I get the sense that there would be something equally nuanced but more powerful behind it.

Had Black done owt objectively scummy previously, sure I'd have more buy-in with it but nah I don't see that at this point.

Ninja'd: Not the comment about it coming from either mafia or town, the one about Python.

[Deltabreedy]

I'd be keen on you justifying your view on Blue first, and on clearly declaring intent to hammer so that Brian has a chance to claim.

Beyond that I've no issues.

[Deltabreedy]

That's an awful hammer

[Deltabreedy]

Andante is either limbait or scum and either way I think it's a good idea to remove them from the game in D2 before any chance of getting close to a Lim or Lose situation.

[Deltabreedy]

VOTE: Andante

Andante is either limbait or scum and either way I think it's a good idea to remove them from the game in D2 before any chance of getting close to a Lim or Lose situation.

This seems like a scum slip to me. Brian was Delta's biggest SR but this post reads like he knew Brian was going to flip town

Also Delta you never answered my questions about your reads list. Let me find them

I said that there should be a delay for a claim after someone declares intent. Now that we know the claim would have been VT, I doubt it would have changed the actual lim of the day but Andante was one of Brian's highest reads and it makes sense for Scum!Dante to take the golden opportunity to get the lim across before anything. It doesn't make sense for Town!Dante to not wait, given how much time we had remaining.

I didn't have time to process it and I did have another post lined up before threadlock, but for me the big issue is that if we leave Andante now and they're town, they're unlikely to be in receipt of an NK, because (whilst I can't speak for the rest of town) I would likely as it stands vote for her in the case of a three-way. I think that the hammer was a bit too convenient for Andante's future survival in the game, removing someone who SR'd her from the game.

WIFOM Alert:

That said, the fact that UP was NK'd throws a bit of a spanner in the Scum!Andante theory, because the NK may well have been chosen in order to further accentuate this 'SRs on Andante die' narrative, and so whilst I scumread Andante and I am voting for her, I think there's a chance that she's been set up. That said, because of the implications of not following my gut on this, I'm going to vote to take them off the board in D2.

I agree as well with Black's assertion that UP's NK could possibly be because they were the most TR player, I'll have to quickly have a skim through but I think that UP was an optimal kill for scum last night. I don't like that Black didn't consider the above, however.

[Deltabreedy]

Bear with I'm on mobile

[Deltabreedy]

At the time I think the game developed really quickly before I could -settle- into justifying the readslist.

I'm struggling to recall why I settled on my pre-hammer Andante read. I think that it's partially succumbing to a bit of AtE in hindsight which I let throughy guard.

Kawaii felt eager to solve, as did yourself and Python. I'm cautious of agreeing with damn near everything someone says after the other newbie we shared tbh Black - which is where my comment on Python came.

I think your vote is misplaced and you feel a little too eager to vote for me for what I feel are not very well fleshed-put reasons. I need to re-read the game before I really look deeper into that read.

Mala etc I didn't get much that was solid on tbh even by hammertime - I'd hope we get more, especially from Mala in D2.

Chao I don't feel overwhelming vibes from either side. My vibe is that I think there's a bit too much credit being given? Idk, again this is subject to a reread.

Blue is another I'm on the fence about. I don't recall many interactions between Andante and them, which as a kneejerk feels off - but doesn't sway me into looking at them to a greater extent than Andante until a reread.

Ninja'd by myself: Nice

[Deltabreedy]

Yeah nah the fact that Andante refused to elaborate upon the read they shared on Blue pre-hammer as well.

I think they need to go tbh - I don't trust them going further into the game than D2, it's either scum or an easy mislim, I lean scum on this but either way I think we need to do this.

[Deltabreedy]

Black you've played one game with me - are you seriously going to use meta to try and underscore your case?

If you want to talk about knowing someone is town:

once she flips town

It's pretty easy to derive context where there is none, Black.

You're so much smarter than this, I can't help but to townread you for it but I don't know how what you've pointed at that makes you then go on to suspect someone out of my 'everyone else' pile with such certainty as well. ISO me again and you'll see how my read on Blue developed naturally.

Your vote really needs to come away from me and go on Andante here.

[Deltabreedy]

I don't think there's any good reason as it stands to keep Andante in the game (nowt personal) - but to run at me?

I don't know why you're acting like you've got this massive solve when your whole argument disregards how horrendous that hammer was.

[Deltabreedy]

As a very general point of order on this, you don't get to arbitrarily decide what is and what isn't alignment indicative. You disagree, that's fair, but I simply don't believe it is as cut and dry as you make it out to be. It's alarming that you seemingly see absolutely nothing wrong with the refusal to elaborate on the read on Blue, and the lack of a declaration of intent to hammer. It's also concerning that you don't seem to want to accept the natural progression from a vibes read to 'oh damn, that was scummy' at the end of the day.

If you think I'm mistaken in my logic that regardless of their play we should keep someone that is A)Scummy and B) if not Scummy, then an easy mislim into a day where we may well be in Lim or Lose, then that's fair but you've got to do some convincing on this one.

The 'Fence Riding' seems to come after my main SR was limmed, so that doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. That you find yourself having to resort to meta in order to prop up the case ought to suggest to you that it's not a strong one, and that your read needs to be re-evaluated.

I'm keen on hearing from others on their interpretations of Andante's hammer - please do critique me and the argument and get involved amongst it. This push from Black, the more I engage with it seems somewhat contrived and forced. Thoughts?

[Deltabreedy]

Yeah - I think my view on the AtE was a bit floppy in hindsight and you've definitely got a point there. What I was saying was that I'm fairly sure that before Andante dropped the hammer vote, my slight town lean was come from vibes that the AtE was genuine and not forced. You'll appreciate that I'm having to recall this from several days ago, but I'm disappointed that I let it set in and get around my guard rather than sticking with my original interpretation which was negative.

The last bit is a mobile phone typo - 'through my guard'. I'm trying to be a little more guarded and not as trusting of people as town after being burned by it (and yeah I'm glaring at you there, Black )

--

Again, really keen on seeing other people weigh in on this, particularly Blue, Mala & Andante (who, in particular, I'm keen on understanding the read on Blue given without justification immediately before the hammer).

[Deltabreedy]

UNVOTE: Andante

Fair enough - Can you go back and justify your read on Blue please?

I find it odd that you didn't use that hammer post or the one after to do so.

Ninja'd: I mean... Okay? It feels like all you have is that you disagree with me

Triple ninja'd: Given the pressure that Black is applying with some really quite loose logic, I'm really not liking the assertion that it 'has to be' one of me or Andante. Given the claim, I'd also now suggest that there is potential that Black has an investigative mafia role and has very deliberately sought to position an argument that sides with a claimed PR

That would also in my mind cast doubt on the validity of Andante's claim, but in isolation I'm more comfortable now applying pressure here:

VOTE: Black

Fucken Jesus Christ let me post

[Deltabreedy]

I'll also point out it's 0020 here so don't expect many more thoughts from now.

After that post, I'm mostly head-empty until tomorrow.

[Deltabreedy]

Andante, is there a good reason that I should not be looking at Black for today's Lim?

If so let me know and I can look at everything with fresh eyes tomorrow. If there isn't a good reason, then can you commit to weighing what I'm saying up without any prejudice from the fact that an hour ago I was advocating for your Lim?

Ninja'd again by everything Jesus I can't type fast on phone

@Andante because when I read Black's argument it feels really very contrived - I've clearly had a bad take on reads here assuming you are in fact a PR, and by positioning themselves in the way that they have, they've taken your side and earned your support pre-claim and it's all very fabricated IMO.

Ninja'd: The vote implies that I think there is a decent chance that you are potentially scum that has rolecopped Andante and understands that there is value to being on-side with a claimed PR. You seemed to know before the claim that Andante was town and I believe I caught a slip in an earlier post which I quoted. Me voting you doesn't imply that I think Andante is town, and in the absence of any other interaction it also doesn't necessarily clear Andante, but I'm more inclined to drop my read on her and focus on you.

To clarify, beyond something groundbreaking - my vote is not going on Andante today.

My vote stays on Black for now, but I think it's worth hearing from the remaining players before Black and I lock horns too definitively.

[Deltabreedy]

I'm inherently distrustful of Black (Meta read, call me a hypocrite in post) so I'm struggling here because I really feel like the push this day has been in bad faith. There is still every chance that this is TvT but I want to hear from everyone else (And re-read the game) before I commit to any other arguments.

[Deltabreedy]

[invite]Black[/invite]

I'm committing now to re-evaluating everything and doing a full re-read of the four remaining (other) players and associatives.

Don't let me forget, either of you please.

Ninja'd god damn you had to post that there then

[Deltabreedy]

Also nice one phone - very cool autocorrect.

UNVOTE: Black

[Deltabreedy]

You're right, I've reacted poorly.

I think we have a 50% chance of limming scum today.

[Deltabreedy]

Victoryville, population... us?

[Deltabreedy]

Need a bit more from you than that, Mala

[Deltabreedy]

I'd caution against being too certain - it feels a smidge like you're believing solely those who agree with you. I took your claim and believed it and you've jumped off me, Chao believes your claim and you've discounted them as an option - I think scum is still within the four of them and until we hear from them all I'm not clearing any of them.

[Deltabreedy]

It was a very minimal comment that failed to address the content of D2 thus far. It's pretty easy for either scum or town to 'lose their place in all this' so thats why I caution against townreading Chao so easily.

I think Andante probably could have gone longer without claiming but by doing so early I think it narrows me down to a pool of four from 6, increasing my odds of hitting scum.

I don't think Blue's position on Andante is in good faith, it feels like a pretty forced view. There is advantages to not claiming role, since it prevents scum from having knowledge of the setup. I'm curious what role Andante has but I've no real good reason to disbelieve her, and I do feel like blue's position is more contrived than genuine.

[Deltabreedy]

I'm rather inclined to believe Andante and I don't like that Blue is essentially rolefishing here.

The vote and the pressure are designed to force a claim and I think that is the last thing that should be done. I'm also of the opinion that Blue is doing this in bad faith.

Unfortunately, low-activity from everyone else is really stymieing associatives and reads that we can get so far.

I'd go so far as to say that Mala and Chao have active lurked in the first day of D2, Chao's position didn't do anything to advance the game or solve, Mala's did even less. Kawaii isn't even here and there's this from Blue which I think is more indicative of an anti-town motivation than it is a town one.

[Deltabreedy]

VOTE: BlueSnakelet

[Deltabreedy]

Speculating about the roleclaim is just fishing and it's enough for me to say this is where I'm focusing today.

[Deltabreedy]

I don't think that was wise. Now scum could use a rolecop on someone else and secure the 2nd PR with at worst a 1/4 and at best a 1/3 chance. There's half a chance they also already RC'd the other PR.

I think the claim is genuine, but I'm disappointed that you did that as an FN because it really opens the door for scum to target and hit the other PR with a better-than-bad chance of taking another one off the board.

I also don't think this locks Blue as town. The reaction still felt forced and my vote is staying put for now, since nothing you've said mechanically townlocks Blue. I'd caution against saying that you're locking them in that way because it's an argument progression that scum could easily follow as well.

[Deltabreedy]

Do you think it'd be advantageous for the person you reached out to as FN to come forwards or for you to tell us who you visited? Or would you rather keep that under wraps for now Andante?

For context, I now don't have Black as a fulltownread - I was under the impression previously that you were two masons.

[Deltabreedy]

Now that that isn't the case, I'm disinclined to trust Black so openly.

[Deltabreedy]

If it were me, speaking from an external viewpoint - the weirder thing would be my progression on Black because I went from scumread to locktown (thinking it was 2 masons). The obsession with my read on Andante is weird.

Ninja'd: I'll need to take a second and read to see if I agree with that.

[Deltabreedy]

@Black:

VOTE: BlueSnakelet

I don't like the rolefishing pre-claim and the argument felt very forced. I didn't see it coming from a town mindset.

Also, @Andante:

I don't see your point on Mala. I think it reads fine, but still just really light on content. I have literally no idea what Mala thinks of anyone. #579 reads well but not enough to give me any kind of read on her.

[Deltabreedy]

So are you now taking the view that I'm scum, blue? #590 is super unclear and I get the sense that you're just sheeping now and going with the flow.

Can you also justify why Black isn't in your limpool? I'm not saying they necessarily should be, but I want to know why you don't think they should be.

[Deltabreedy]

*snip*

Quoting for attention. You've been active elsewhere on the site today and offered nothing here.

Need something from you and Mala and to an extent Chao as well - not a fan of the chip in comments and then dipping without any real advancement. It's making today really narrow in scope.

[Deltabreedy]

Do you think it'd be advantageous for the person you reached out to as FN to come forwards or for you to tell us who you visited? Or would you rather keep that under wraps for now Andante?
*snip*

@Andante

[Deltabreedy]

General Reads:

I'm only seeing defensive and explanatory posts - no gamesolving from Mala.
Think Blue is acting super weird. The rolefishing plus then just quite openly sheeping Andante just doesnt sit right with me. Scummiest read of the game for me so far.
Reading through and disregarding the 'locktown' attitude that Andante has on Black, they are in a weird spot for me. I don't know why Andante has this implicit trust of them.
Chao has barely said anything this game. There's a lot of words but they say very very little. Chao hasn't really taken a solid position all game and I feel is the most guilty of active lurking.
Kawaii apparently doesn't care enough to post.

--

Potential teams for me as of right now:

Chao/Blue

- In #188, Blue votes Chao, their first vote of the game but Chao doesn't respond to it at all. In fact, Chao goes on to simply bemoan a lack of opinions which 200 posts or so into the game feels a bit forced. A load of interaction between the two in #212 to #271, they have a back and forth that doesn't involve any pressure and doesn't actually comment on anything else happening which is odd - #284 is a fairly solid post but after this is the whole Blue/Chao thoughts on Brian 'theory'.

The face that Blue yields so quickly after Chao's response in #356 and that they go from Potential SR to TR to TBD back to TR over the course of this interaction looks incredibly weird - Blue lets Chao off really easily and since then has failed to mention Chao.

Votes: Blue was on the Brian wagon early on but I don't think that lets them off the hook. I think it's a numerically sound theory to suggest that there was one scum on the wagon, the other members of the wagon were UP (ConfTown by way of NK), Black (I lean town but distrustful here), Myself (Town) and Andante (Uncountered FN). It's also worth noting that Chao was instead voting Kawaii, whilst holding a SR on Brian and has of course had a completely minimal impact in D2.

--

Mala/Blue

- Mala barely mentions Blue and doesn't share anything alignment-indicative in D1 at all beyond activity here, in post #327. Blue's #396 I have already pointed out for coming across as gauging their own read, but I can now read this as an active disassociation by implying that Mala had a scumping on one of those four players. By including themselves in the mix, it serves to distance them from Mala. Mala, it has to be noted, never answers this. #399 has a question to Mala reaffirming that their is a scumping which again goes unanswered. The thing which I think helps push this below Blue/Chao is Mala's D2 play, wherein she's pressuring Blue RE: Rolefishing. It's not, however, backed up with a vote. Does Mala's D1 play count as distancing from Blue and is D2 a reversal of her policy on this, or is Mala just lurk!town?

VCA for Blue is above with Blue/Chao - I'm interested to see if Mala's vote goes back to Black after ending the day with her vote there, or if it goes to Blue who D2!Mala's posts seem to indicate a deeper scum read for.

--

A big ping that sets me off on both of these is that after putting Brian at E-1, Blue doesn't mention Brian again. They also never pursued their scumread on them or tried to do any convincing - they voted Chao for 'sheeping Brian', and they then voted Brian after the whole Chao/Brian TBD argument but they never actually go into why Brian should be limmed - it was just assumed. Seriously, go to their ISO, Control+F 'Brian' and see how many times they mention them without ever actually trying to convince others of their scumread, or asking Brian any questions. The only one is in #357, which with the benefit of hindsight is a particularly flimsy case that kind of echoed very general Brian wagon sentiments.


I think the more likely of the two here is Blue/Chao, but that has to be mitigated by the fact that there is not much to go on from Mala, Kawaii or Chao. I do like Mala's last post, since it echoes my own sentiment about Blue not being mechanically clear and Andante - I encourage you to read these cases, do your own VCA and see if it matches up. Blue is not locktown at all, and is infact the scummiest player - I'm of the opinion that they're the optimal lim today. There is nobody that is locked-in as town, and the sooner you open your mind to possibilities outside of Mala/Kawaii/Chao and include Blue and Black in the limpool (maybe not Black, but I'm inherently cautious of her), the better. The 'LockTown' attitude is only going to hurt us when it comes to day end.

[Deltabreedy]

There was no commitment to the lim. I think Blue simply knew Brian was town so was happy to help the wagon along, but specifically didn't push the wagon by anything other than their vote so that they couldn't take a share of the blame for the town flip.

I need everyone to look at this argument, I'm confident that this is scum. It adds up both in ISO and in concert with associative reads with two other slots as a minimum./B].

[Deltabreedy]

@Mod: Requesting prod on Kawaii

[Deltabreedy]

So who's your partner?

[Deltabreedy]

Can you justify a reason why I oughtn't tunnel you until you're eliminated?

I need you to justify your read on Mala now as well, please. Kawaii has lurked more so your current reason is factually inaccurate.

[Deltabreedy]

1.

@Andante, do you have a reason to not say what your role is, even though you already claimed PR?

I don't like this post. I feel like you are fishing for the role, but the last game someone wrote this they were town, but either way the vibe is bad.

2.

If Andante is a town PR, she'll either be NK or she'll be roleblocked from now on, now that she already claimed PR.

Unless she's a Mason in A3, now I realize.

Keeping this for notes esp if a RB'er is present on the scumteam.

3.

I think chaod town! I agree! Andante hammer too wild to be from scum

alright pool of 4 down to 3 for where scum is. easy enough.

what type of logic is this.

Then your vote:

VOTE: MalaKittens

*snip*

By the time I voted Mala, we knew she had been online (she had posted a meaningless joke), and yet she didn't comment on anything that was happening.
*snip*

What you posted is demonstrably misleading.

Can you also be clear for me - are you voting Mala because of activity (for which there has now been a change, yet your vote remains), or was it to sheep Andante as you your self said:

*snip*

In the meantime, however, I'll help Andante push Mala. She's been the lurkiest of the lurkers, and I really want to hear her speak.

Help me out here.

[Deltabreedy]

But there's no questions or probing. No prompting for information - just a request to talk.

I'd understand that if they hadn't spoken but they have and rather than seize the opportunity as I believe town would to ask questions and scumhunt - you're blithely sitting by and being very passive about it.

[Deltabreedy]

I might be biased, but in my very first scum game I just had to sit back while really opnionated townies pushed miselimination wagons. I think Delta is this game's really opnionated townie, and the Mafia is just sitting back while he pushes people.

This is a very easy throwaway statement designed solely to deflect the argument I've made. It's an ad hominem post that doesn't counter my argument or explain to me where there may be gaps, and crucially there still isn't any effort from Blue to actually game-solve?

Like cool, he thinks that Mafia are just sitting back. Why isn't he looking for them?

[Deltabreedy]

That's weird, because that's the first time you've mentioned Kawaii this game. Your previous read was on the 'Brz Slot'. Can you justify why you find Kawaii to still be scum, or have you not read their posts?

[Deltabreedy]

@Black: Your vote is still on me. Have you read my #607 on Blue and potential teams?

I'd like to hear your and Andante's thoughts on this.

[Deltabreedy]

*Snip* -

Quoting for notification

[/quote]

I see you online now. We need something.

[Deltabreedy]

I've not said that Kawaii is town.

I'm not understanding your logic at all, nothing has really changed since your Mala vote in terms of Kawaii's gameplay (they haven't posted D2) and I honestly get the feeling that you're trying to lead town by ignoring cases.

I need you to tell me why you disagree with my blue case.

Furthermore, if you genuinely think one of Black and I are scum why are you not going for the 1 in 2 chance of voting between us than the 1 in 4 chance of hitting scum per vote in Chao, Blue, Mala and Kawaii?

I don't disagree that Kawaii's play is obtusely anti-town - they have been online several times since being prodded and not responded to the thread, but that doesn't overrule the actively scummy posts from Blue, and the associatives with Chao and Mala.

Please read my posts.

[Deltabreedy]

Chao your vote would have significantly more impact if it were on Blue.

[Deltabreedy]

They didn't say you have failed. They said it appears that you flat-out don't care about finding scum.

This is backed up by the fact that the only person you're questioning at the moment is an unCC'd town PR, and I get the sense that your only instinct is to follow them.

You aren't scum hunting, you're still just kind of wafting through the day, dare I say.

[Deltabreedy]

I'm going to look through associatives in ISO between Kawaii & Chao/Mala/Blue when I am not on just a phone.

Blue is still my top SR for now, with Kawaii working their way to a strong 2nd

[Deltabreedy]

Can you justify your Blue TR for me?

Honestly you're playing so erratically that I'm really lacking on desire to follow your vote right now. The logic that you've used to arrive at this 2 in 3 just doesn't make sense for me either, can you walk me through that because I'm not getting it.

[Deltabreedy]

It's also sketch as hell that Kawaii is openly sheeping you and your trust of them comes from what, a meta read? Blue was kinda sheeping you and you're just TR'ing them for doing the sum total of nothing to actually solve the game.

I appreciate that you're basically confirmed town by this stage, but the half-baked logic and the poor reasonings for TR'ing people (and calling people locktown and things like that) makes it hard to do anything beyond just not include you in my limpool.

[Deltabreedy]

I'm significantly more confident in my read on Blue than I am in a vote on Black.

Can you walk me through your logic on limming in me/Kawaii/Black? You TR Kawaii in #667 'Def Town', so by the logic you've gone over it's Black and I. The issue that I have is that your clearing of Blue/Kawaii/Mala & Chao feels so weak that I fear you're closing yourself off to significantly better lims without any real reason to.

I'm not explicitly saying that I'm against a Black lim, but I really feel like you've shut off significantly better options.
--

Ninja'd: The reason I flipped my read on Black is because you were quite vehement in TR'ing them, after the non-specific PR claim I suddenly clocked that you were both Masons. Naturally this has turned out to be incorrect but since then I've not SR'd Black to the same extent as I have other players. Part of that is probably due to activity, it's easier to TR players that are active and something I need to work on but that's the source of my flip.

When it comes to being erratic, you've gone from saying that Kawaii is in your limpool to saying that Kawaii is 'Def Town' in the space of an evening with no real reason beyond it feeling like another game. I think you're leading town right now as a basically conftown PR, and I think with that you shouldn't be so quickly to clear people that 24 hours ago you said were all in your limpool.

[Deltabreedy]

Like do you really not think that Blue and Kawaii sheeping you is in the slight bit weird?

[Deltabreedy]

Do you not think that Chao's active lurking and Mala's #606 being a case on Blue but not supported by a vote are weird?

I just don't see at all how you're clearing them all.

Ninja'd:
Yeah I cased Black, and then I was completely convinced for some time that you were both Masons. After that I'm tentative to say that Black is town but I have significantly stronger reads (Namely, Blue - who I'm pretty sure on and I've committed to openly.) If Black was my strongest scumread, I'd be back on them, but as it happens I find Kawaii's play to be quite scummy so at present my reads look like:

Blue
Kawaii

Chao

Black/Mala

You/Me

If you're a Friendly Neighbour, Kawaii cannot be a Mason. Clearing them on a meta read where they were a completely different role doesn't make sense - they would of course be likely to sheep you in that game because you two were presumably co-ordinating closely. It's weak at best and dangerous at worst. You implored Black and I to put our differences aside and look at the other four which I think was a smart move because I know I have a tendancy to tunnel - and now I've found things which are pretty legitimately scummy and you're clearing them for bloody shoddy reasons.

Have you even read #607?

Ninja'd:
I'm completely against using meta to try and clear someone. Kawaii's jump onto the Black wagon with you is so easily something that could come from scum and they'll be very aware of the previous game with you. Clearing them for something that is at best NAI and at worst scummy just makes zero sense.

[Deltabreedy]

And also, Blue sheeped you onto Mala earlier - even if you are clearing Kawaii through meta (which again, I think is a mistake), that fails to explain why you've also seemingly cleared them in #601, then put them at E-1 in #658. Like, just how can I work with you when you're lock!towning people who agree with you blindly?

[Deltabreedy]

'Them' being Blue, not Kawaii.

Like I'm more confused than anything. in #513, Black was 'locktown' too. Does that just not mean anything?

Can I get a readslist from you because frankly you've suspected and cleared just about everyone today so I've really very little idea where you stand.

[Deltabreedy]

Why would Blue claim at E-2?

[Deltabreedy]

What is even happening these last few days

[Deltabreedy]

I still think Blue is scum, frankly - and I need people to look at my #607 and tell me why I am wrong.

Rolefishing, the development of arguments, the attempt to mislead from #615 which I call out in #616, suspecting then sheeping the claimed FN. I just don't see any of this coming from town, it feels very forced and there's no attempt to gamesolve, it's just stagnant gameplay which efficiently has added nothing in terms of questioning and deduction. I think that the activity levels from Chao, Mala and Kawaii have made it easier to blend in, whatever the reason behind them but none of them have the same abject scumminess that Blue does, and I think today is the day to remove them from the board.

[Deltabreedy]

Kawaii is also scummy and it really boils my pish that you're townreading them from meta (in a context where presumably you were co-ordinating actively as Masons), Andante.

[Deltabreedy]

I actually think kawaii might be scum here

I'm still leaning town on Blue

@Delta would you be interested in voting kawaii today?

I could be swayed, but I'd prefer a Blue lim. Why leaning town on Blue?

[Deltabreedy]

I disagree. I think Blue's play throughout the game has been scummy and that today is the day.

I'll hammer a Kawaii wagon, but I won't just drop my case on Blue as it stands.

[Deltabreedy]

This doesn't feel right at all.

I'm now more down for a Black lim than I am a Kawaii one. That interaction feels awful and honestly off the back of vibes it just reeks.

[Deltabreedy]

Intent to Hammer

But not before I respond in full to 710 and 711, and not before Kawaii's slot has some time to claim or you know actually be here or whatever

I'll be back after finishing up work.

[Deltabreedy]

Just starting to finish up, so a brief comment

You're seeing an awful lot of what you want to see, and awfully little of what's actually the case.

[Deltabreedy]

If I could play like you as scum I'd love it, but that's just not the case here.

I don't remember posting 709, I won't lie - I've had a bad migraine the last day and a half so I might have just idk pain posted. I'll look back in a few mins and catch myself up.

[Deltabreedy]

Right I'm here and present and I plan on responding to everything in one large post now.

I don't think Mala is it today. My preference is (before catching up) for a Blue lim, as it has been for some time.

I genuinely hate how Andante is so certain about Kawaii. Like they were also certain about Black until they weren't and I can't in good faith put any stock in their arguments when they have such shoddy reasons for not engaging with valid arguments.

Longpost coming up

[Deltabreedy]

Okay you're 100% seeing what you want to see. Andante is in a position of responsibility, and 'Clearing' people for shit reasons is going to boil my piss because it means that the person that town (especially inactive town who aren't doing much thinking, since we definitely have a minimum of 2 townies who are lurking/not engaging) are most likely to sheep behind is artificially clearing a scumread of mine, making it hard to get who I think is scum limmed. They also believe Blue to be locktown, my primary scumread - so you must understand the frustration.

If not, then you're either being deliberately obtuse as a confirmation bias-infused townie, or a mafioso looking to take out the most actively scumhunting town player. If it's the former, you're better than this.

[Deltabreedy]

Spoilered for brevity - it's a bit quote heavy. Also, look who just figured out how to use Spoiler tags properly.

Spoiler: I respond to #710

This doesn't feel right at all.

I'm now more down for a Black lim than I am a Kawaii one. That interaction feels awful and honestly off the back of vibes it just reeks.

You didn't answer my question. Why do you think kawaii is scummy?

See below:

*snip*

I don't disagree that Kawaii's play is obtusely anti-town - they have been online several times since being prodded and not responded to the thread, but that doesn't overrule the actively scummy posts from Blue, and the associatives with Chao and Mala.

Please read my posts.

General Reads:

*snip*

Kawaii apparently doesn't care enough to post.

*snip*

I think the more likely of the two here is Blue/Chao, but that has to be mitigated by the fact that there is not much to go on from Mala, Kawaii or Chao.
*snip*

*snip*

Quoting for attention. You've been active elsewhere on the site today and offered nothing here.

Need something from you and Mala and to an extent Chao as well - not a fan of the chip in comments and then dipping without any real advancement. It's making today really narrow in scope.

You can see here that I'm drifting towards suspecting Kawaii for Active Lurking - they're very deliberately not posting and it went pretty un-noticed because of a lack of attention from Chao, Blue and Mala to boot.

*snip*
Blue is still my top SR for now, with Kawaii working their way to a strong 2nd

It's also sketch as hell that Kawaii is openly sheeping you and your trust of them comes from what, a meta read? Blue was kinda sheeping you and you're just TR'ing them for doing the sum total of nothing to actually solve the game.

I appreciate that you're basically confirmed town by this stage, but the half-baked logic and the poor reasonings for TR'ing people (and calling people locktown and things like that) makes it hard to do anything beyond just not include you in my limpool.

You can see here that I'm picking up Kawaii for the nonsense votes and this is a continuation of the active lurking narrative because there's no effort to game-solve and just some sheeping of points - voting with Andante with nothing to actually back it up. The fact that I find Andante's reasoning so faulty and the fact that Kawaii and Blue sheeped it suggest to me that it's easy to follow the claimed FN.

Like do you really not think that Blue and Kawaii sheeping you is in the slight bit weird?

*snip*

Yeah I cased Black, and then I was completely convinced for some time that you were both Masons. After that I'm tentative to say that Black is town but I have significantly stronger reads (Namely, Blue - who I'm pretty sure on and I've committed to openly.) If Black was my strongest scumread, I'd be back on them, but as it happens I find Kawaii's play to be quite scummy so at present my reads look like:

Blue
Kawaii

Chao

Black/Mala

You/Me

If you're a Friendly Neighbour, Kawaii cannot be a Mason. Clearing them on a meta read where they were a completely different role doesn't make sense - they would of course be likely to sheep you in that game because you two were presumably co-ordinating closely. It's weak at best and dangerous at worst. You implored Black and I to put our differences aside and look at the other four which I think was a smart move because I know I have a tendancy to tunnel - and now I've found things which are pretty legitimately scummy and you're clearing them for bloody shoddy reasons.

Have you even read #607?

Ninja'd:
I'm completely against using meta to try and clear someone. Kawaii's jump onto the Black wagon with you is so easily something that could come from scum and they'll be very aware of the previous game with you. Clearing them for something that is at best NAI and at worst scummy just makes zero sense.

I've had a pretty consistent and clear scumread on Kawaii, to suggest otherwise is kind of disingenuous.

Spoiler: Why clearing Kawaii from irrelevant meta is bad

Andante is saying that Kawaii is 100% town, which comes from a primarily meta read. That's an objectively faulty viewpoint because:

The game that Andante is referencing, Kawaii and her were Masons together. Masons can talk and collaborate in a PT and will obviously share some kind of sheeping. Using this to clear Kawaii is therefore an objectively faulty reason, since according to Andante's claim, there is no in or out-of-thread manner for them to communicate, and so the parameters of the game have played.

That, and using meta (and solely meta) to clear someone is incredibly poor gamesolving. This is why I've been frustrated with Andante in D2 post-claim.

I get the feeling that Black is suddenly flailing and it's really, really weird. On the one hand, it's really erratic and suggests a lack of conviction in their reads, and they're doing the exact thing they're accusing me of doing. I get the sense that could probably be town!black I get the sense that Black is obsessed with a 'solve', but the arguments she's approaching it with are shaky, based in raw conjecture and theorising rather than much of what I have actually said?

It could go either way - like I say, I don't think anyone would disagree that I've been the proactive scumhunting influence in D2 and that would be a great lim for Scum!Black - it would make D3 (especially if current activity levels go on) incredibly easy for scum to dictate the game, since all they functionally would have to do is convince Andante on a mislim. Given that Andante has lock-town'd 3 of the currently living 7

(Needs clarification: I don't know if Andante still is lock-town'd on Black)

that may not be too difficult. Removing me from the game is I think the optimal D2 mislim to push, and my migraine-fuelled, almost-asleep post that slipped Black into 2nd place in my limpool and the subsequent willingness to hammer Kawaii having forgotten that does look like an opportunisitic slip. Woops. But I really don't like how suddenly Black turned to theorising and compiling a case against me only to vote for Mala when there was a lack of momentum. It feels too easy.

This has put my reads fully up WIFOM creek without a hammer (hah!) - and I'm now wondering if Black really has been scum all along.

ISO of Black and Associatives to follow.

[Deltabreedy]

Actually my head has fallen off with this migraine so I'm going to come back to this after another night trying to sleep off this headache before responding fully to Black's most recent tomfoolery.

In the meantime, I don't know if it's been asked for but:

@Mod: Can we get pokes on Chao, Kawaii & Blue?

[Deltabreedy]

Your biggest SR is me, you've just hopped off my wagon because you know I'll flip town. Town also doesn't say 'if' I flip town. Scum!Black needed to intimate that they don't know alignments, but the only alignment that Town!Black would know is her own.

UNVOTE: Blue
VOTE: Black

GG, on the basis that Andante revisits my arguments D3.

[Deltabreedy]

Doesn't clear Mala, or Blue or Kawaii or Chao for that matter, but certainly incriminates Black and frankly I'm not letting go of a scumread on Black when I get it. I've done that before.

[Deltabreedy]

Why would Town!Black present a huge case on me, but then work to get someone else limmed whilst still calling me scum? It's apparent that I'm her biggest 'SR' yet she's focused elsewhere, and it's easier play off what could be a town!Mala flip than a Delta town flip.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a bus, because if Mala were to flip scum, that would give Black so much credibility going into tomorrow, and I would imagine then Black would focus on a me mislim or an inactive slot mislim.

---

Andante you don't even realize Delta is asking you if I'm locktown because he's trying to decide who he should kill tonight. Why else would you think he'd be so obsessed with you locktowning everyone? He wants to see if he and mala stand a chance here and they have to kill off people you locktown in order to do so

This is a very definite misrepresentation of what I was saying. Andante was (at the time) locktowning all of my major SR's like Blue and Kawaii with shoddy reasoning, and frankly was refusing to justify it by anything other than vibes or meta. Trying to twist this into me hunting for an NK target is disingenuous and misleading, and Black thought she could get away with it because of how woefully inactive 4/7 of the players have been today.

Ninja'd:
Lets flip you today and find out.

[Deltabreedy]

If you are in fact town, then you've done to me what I did to skitter in our last game and we need to have a conversation in postgame. If you're scum then I can't wait to break your winning streak.

[Deltabreedy]

Oh I'm not daft. I'm responding to your uncharacteristically weak push and the opportune nature of your vote switching. You're literally doing what you were accusing me of 2 pages ago.

Also, a thought occurs.
We all know that Andante mechanically isn't confirmed town, right?

[Deltabreedy]

Black - have you considered that we might be on Column A, row 2 here, where both PRs have no reason to call out Andante's claim as false?

[Deltabreedy]

No-one would need to because their own role would be compatible with Andantes

[Deltabreedy]

Setup Info

Newbie Setup

Newbie Setup

NewD3 (as designed by RadiantCowbells):

	A	B	C
Mafia	Mafia Roleblocker	Mafia Rolecop	Mafia Goon
Row 1	Town Cop and Town Doctor	Town Tracker and Town Friendly Neighbor	Town Cop and Vanilla Townie
Row 2	Town Jailkeeper and Town Tracker	Town Jailkeeper and Town Friendly Neighbor	Town Jailkeeper and Vanilla Townie
Row 3	Town Mason and Town Mason	Town Tracker and Town Doctor	Town Mason and Town Mason

*snip*

If the setup was Column A, Row 2 - then neither town PRs would mechanically have a reason to suspect Andante's claim. The message was sent to the same person who was NK'd, which also means that a tracker who looked at it wouldn't necessarily expect that the NK came from them, and it means that there's no way to actually confirm it beyond Andante's word.
To claim otherwise is just straight-up false.

Furthermore, the manner in which Andante claimed was extremely weird, and Scum!Andante locktowning people I was suspecting would make quite a lot of sense, since no-one suspects the claimed PR and she can discredit my arguments on someone who was her scumpartner.

Andante/Blue
Andante/Kawaii

Are these possible to anyone else?

Ninja'd:
It might have been a spur-of-the-moment gambit, the odds aren't great (1/3 of Row A having the correct set of town PR's to avoid counters) but when you follow the play this kind of clicks with me.

The refusal to engage with my arguments
The wishy washy voting
The locktowning of anyone I suspect

It makes a tonne of sense, it's just numerically unlikely

[Deltabreedy]

There was no reason for FN!Andante to claim when they did.

[Deltabreedy]

UNVOTE: Black

I really want to believe this is Town!Black with a confirmation bias issue. #810 is right that it's a dual argument, I read it just looking at the points really that were at me (I don't associate with Mala, I wouldn't pair us together so wasn't reading us together) so that's my bad; but I get the sense that you've completely closed yourself off to other arguments which sucks because I'm town, have had some strong points to make and both you and Andante have just shrugged them off with pretty poor justifications.

Looking at it I think a gambit with that theory, with Column A having a RB not a RC would be mathematically unlikely as a D2 scumclaim - I was thinking 'aloud' as it were because I hadn't considered it myself. I put a fairly hefty tinfoil hat on when looking at the chart.

[Deltabreedy]

I think that Andante lock!towning people is dangerous because:

- She has locktowned people I suspect
- It opens us up to losing the game D3 assuming a mislim today - if her mind is as certain on these people being town as it seems, then scum could just coast the rest of the game.

I think that Black has developed this theory alongside what Andante has said in terms of locktown, and needs to really approach the next 24 hours with an open mind.

I think that broadly, activity today has been poor, which has allowed scum the chance to hide and that we're getting swept up in 'need-to-lim-now' mania.

I implore everyone to revisit the arguments I made and tell me why my case on Blue is wrong.

[Deltabreedy]

Jesus Christ you're seeing what you want to see here.

I think I could probably say that water is wet and you'd link it to scumhood. I'm literally here working to do some gamesolving and you're scumreading me for... what exactly? The most recent thing seems to be pointing out the fact that Andante isn't mechanically clear which is completely true. It's unlikely that she isn't town but that doesn't change that the way I progressed with that was to put my thoughts on the page. I got a bit excited because it was a new angle that I know I hadn't considered before. As we discussed I came down to earth and realised that yeah it was a long shot but god it was so refreshing to have a theory that worked and wasn't shouted down because 'meh, wasn't convincing' or 'meh, nah they're locktown'.

If you aren't sold on your solve, then why are you talking like Mala and I are 'planning to go looking for the other PR'? You may well be more polite about it than I was which in hindsight is something I regret, but you're doing damn near the exact same thing that I did when I tunnelled in on her which was to find scum reasoning behind every post because it fit nicely with my pet theory. You've done exactly the same here.

I am not scum. I couldn't give a toss about Mala because I don't neccessarily think they're town, but for me - not scum.

---

On a note, it really boils my pish that we've got so many inactive players in the game. Over half the game and it feels like I'm banging my head on a brick wall when only 3 people are posting much of substance daily. Just engage with me, tell me why my arguments are shit if they think they're shit, tell me why they're great if you agree! But by actively lurking I think it doesn't particularly matter what I say because I get the sense that this could have been a thread between just me, Black and Andante and been every bit as productive.

---

I'm not todays lim, and I think there is great reasons to put Kawaii, Blue, Chao and Mala all into the limpool. I think limming between Blue and Kawaii gives the best chance of hitting scum so there's where my vote goes.

VOTE: Blue

Ninja'd: I don't TR her, but I think there's significantly better lim targets today, and I'm not sheeping a mala lim just because Andante lock-towns my SR's or because you think I should. If I did and she flipped scum, it'd be 'He bussed his partner!'. If I did and she flipped town, it'd be 'He jumped on a mislim wagon, get him!'. I trust my scumhunting more than I do yours, probably because you've got me, a townie, in your limpool.

Ninja'd again: Yeah shock horror. Well, let's give it a go - "Water is Wet!"

[Deltabreedy]

I will be around between 0430 and 0830 tomorrow (8.5-12.5 hours from now) and possibly a brief moment around 1800 (roughly 2 hours from deadline). Beyond that, I'm out as far as D2 goes.

[Deltabreedy]

And re-evaluating my read when there's a compelling case against my tunnel. Let's not leave that bit out because it directly contributed to your victory that game, and the ad hominem remark about being notorious for it does nothing for that post.

Ninja'd:

I've outlined my reasons for voting Blue and frankly I think the fact that I have 3/7 players pegged as more likely to be scum is a fairly good reason not to vote Mala.

Like I say though, if I vote Mala now and she were to flip scum, you'd probably just try to paint me (Town, btw) as a bussing partner - so there's no motivation for me to vote someone who by PoE and by gameplay I just don't see as likely scum in the current gamestate.

[Deltabreedy]

The post you're referring to mainly covers Blue so to say I've made a case on Mala is disingenuous - I went on in that post to explain that I thought Mala/Blue was less likely and that Mala's more recent play was giving off positive vibes. Since then, the game state has change and so has my views.

If you're going to scumread me for having progression in my reads then you would do well to take a notorious tunneller tag for yourself.

[Deltabreedy]

And thats me for today.

See you tomorrow - hopefully Kawaii and Blue show up, and hopefully Chao has something more to add over the next 24 hours.

[Deltabreedy]

Black is making a case on me because she knows that in order for her plan to succeed, she needs to discredit the loudest opposing voice in the room, that's me.

She also knows that running a Lim on me and me flipping town will degrade her ability to control and influence the game, which is why she is running a wagon on Mala instead.

This 'solve' is completely fabricated. Lim me, watch me flip town and then take Black off the board. Or flip Black and we have a good shot at ending this Day 3.

VOTE: Black

It's Black or it's me today. Black will flip scum, I'll flip town, if that helps your decision making.

If me going down means we flip Scum!Black tomorrow, then that works for me, I'm happy to trade.

Given the activity levels, do I trust D4 everyone to come to a conclusion on who the final partner is? Nah, I absolutely don't to be honest but inactivity from everyone has allowed Black to dictate D2 and lead up to this point.

Get your votes in, let's get this over with.

[Deltabreedy]

If Black was town, she'd work to take out her dominant scumread. She isn't and is fabricating a case that allows her to flip someone (possibly her partner, possibly not) to push votes towards me D3.

It's too obvious.

If I am at L-1 at deadline and there's no counterwagon to Black - I will self-hammer to prove my point and get scum!Black limmed D3.

Don't let her weasel out of this, I for one steadfastly refuse to let her get scum victory (4/5?)

[Deltabreedy]

@mod: deadline check

[Deltabreedy]

Right so I won't lie I've just done a 0300-2100 day and I'm a smidge woozed out.

Thank goodness for the extension, I'll cast a fresh pair of eyes on this tomorrow (12-ish hours to Deadline). It's a bank holiday here in the UK so I'll basically be available up until deadline.

Can we get a sound off who is about tomorrow?

[Deltabreedy]

Hi it's not me

[Deltabreedy]

Blue or Kawaii

I pick bkue

[Deltabreedy]

Ewop: as response to 899

See you tomorrow

[Deltabreedy]

A meta read

That's it

Ok cool

VOTE: Kawaii

[Deltabreedy]

Mala's progression into a case on me feels very forced, like it's a case borne out of wanting to survive not wanting to find scum.
Kawaii is a historic scumread of mine.
I feel like Blue is setting up to cross with me should I survive D2 and I'm now beyond convinced that both scum are within this. That might be tempered by the lack of interaction from that slot but with nothing to really go on recently I have to go on what I have.

Look there D3 if the hammer does drop on me.

[Deltabreedy]

Here's an idea, don't hammer me - it's a super bad idea, coming from a super bad read from Black.

What value do I bring to us? - actively looking for scum, considering arguments, weighing opinions and actually trying to win the game for us
What value does Kawaii bring? - Even if you aren't convinced by my argument on Blue, on Kawaii and the progression I've gone through, do any of you seriously have any faith that Kawaii will be here, will be scumhunting, will be doing literally anything D3 to help us all win?

Even if they aren't Lurk!Scum, they're obtusely anti-town and my opinion is that they are in fact scum.

Flip them and find out! Flipping me is a big mistake.

[Deltabreedy]

2 and a half hours and no progression here.

I'd advocate for a no-lim over my own lim, but I'd advocate for a Kawaii lim first because there is a good chance that they are probably scum.

The issue with that is that I feel like Black won't reconsider their reads in good faith at any point, so if I do live through to tomorrow, are they going to dominate conversation and run a mislim?

If Kawaii flips town, I would wager good money that Black is scum, that they would eliminate a Mala/Blue/Chao (whichever isn't their partner) and leave us in a 3v2 wherein they can get Andante to vote along with them - and then them and their partner co-ordinate a vote and that'll be that.

[Deltabreedy]

Mala is my preferred elimination, but I will hammer Delta if I have to.

Why won't you hammer Kawaii?

[Deltabreedy]

*snip*

Mala's partner should be in Delta, chao, Kame.

With this logic, why will Blue hammer me, not Kawaii (with no progression since this post suggesting that they no-longer believe Kawaii to be scum)?

Lets get rid of Kawaii today, they flip scum and we then have hopefully a result between Black/Blue to see what the craic is for the last mafioso.

Ninja'd:

I'm ngl I haven't spent a lot of time looking into possible solves outside of mala/Delta because I just think I'm right here. But I want to throw these options out into the wild to see what people think of them

Yeah put a lot of work into being open minded here haven't you?

[Deltabreedy]

Black, if you are town, READ #920.

[Deltabreedy]

(not the bit where I quote you and get snarky, please)

[Deltabreedy]

*snip*

Quoting for attention. You've been active elsewhere on the site today and offered nothing here.

Need something from you and Mala and to an extent Chao as well - not a fan of the chip in comments and then dipping without any real advancement. It's making today really narrow in scope.

General Reads:

I'm only seeing defensive and explanatory posts - no gamesolving from Mala.
Think Blue is acting super weird. The rolefishing plus then just quite openly sheeping Andante just doesnt sit right with me. Scummiest read of the game for me so far.
Reading through and disregarding the 'locktown' attitude that Andante has on Black, they are in a weird spot for me. I don't know why Andante has this implicit trust of them.
Chao has barely said anything this game. There's a lot of words but they say very very little. Chao hasn't really taken a solid position all game and I feel is the most guilty of active lurking.

Kawaii apparently doesn't care enough to post.

*snip*

Like do you really not think that Blue and

Kawaii sheeping

you is in the slight bit weird?

*snip*
Yeah I cased Black, and then I was completely convinced for some time that you were both Masons. After that I'm tentative to say that Black is town but I have significantly stronger reads (Namely, Blue - who I'm pretty sure on and I've committed to openly.) If Black was my strongest scumread,

I'd be back on them, but as it happens I find Kawaii's play to be quite scummy so at present my reads look like:

Blue
Kawaii

*snip*

Ninja'd:
I'm completely against using meta to try and clear someone.

Kawaii's jump onto the Black wagon with you is so easily something that could come from scum and they'll be very aware of the previous game with you. Clearing them for something that is at best NAI and at worst scummy just makes zero sense.

Kawaii is also scummy and it really boils my pish that you're townreading them from meta (in a context where presumably you were co-ordinating actively as Masons), Andante.

I disagree. I think Blue's play throughout the game has been scummy and that today is the day.

I'll hammer a Kawaii wagon, but I won't just drop my case on Blue as it stands.

Can I point out that in #867, Blue says that there is a 'Non-negligable chance' that Black and I are TvT - and that in #622-623, they actively townread me.

So why is it that they would now (without justification) look to hammer me over Kawaii?

[Deltabreedy]

Yeah put a lot of work into being open minded here haven't you?

I tunnel pretty bad as town. Just be thankful I was able to pull myself out long enough to consider I could be wrong

What if I told you... you're wrong and you should join me on a Blue wagon immediately.

[Deltabreedy]

UNVOTE: Kawaii
VOTE: Blue

[Deltabreedy]

Black join me on this now - they literally dont have a case but are willing to hammer someone they townread

[Deltabreedy]

Mala's partner should be in Delta, chao, Kame.

I think in your most recent Delta read you said he's not scum because scum wouldn't have the progression he had D2. Do you still feel this way?

I do not.

I townread him before mostly because of a bias of mine. I thought his aggressive behavior was inherently town indicative. But it wouldn't be really that difficult to play aggressively as scum.

This is it, that's all

[Deltabreedy]

Black switch your vote before Blue hammers

[Deltabreedy]

If you feel that strongly then hammer me at deadline but THIS IS THE SOLVE - Blue = Scum

[Deltabreedy]

Because I'm 99.5% on Blue, around 70% on Kawaii.

I still have a fairly hefty distrust of you but frankly your gameplay and the pure numerics of not rolling scum like a bajillion times in a row suggest to me that you're town with a pinch of confirmation bias.

Vote Blue, lets get it done. If you really-really think it's me then I'm here at deadline to hammer myself if that knocks you out of this funk of misreading and gets you considering others more strongly.

[Deltabreedy]

Frankly with Kawaii not being here ever, Andante being flippy & floppy as hell, with Chao being replaced and Mala not really being present much - I kind of need you to be town or we've already lost.

[Deltabreedy]

So for goodness sake don't be scum please.

Ninja'd: So lets go for Kawaii then at 70%, with Blue at basically 100% tomorrow. I have faith that we can get this done in spite of lurking players and replacements.

Blue has gone super-quiet because they HAVE NO CASE. I wager that you probably unvoted seconds from a hammer which is good, but now I really need you to focus on not limming me.

Ninja'd with the kawaii post - no, what I am saying is that it's very likely that they're scum, but people seem to struggle to read because of the lack of activity, they could fly under the radar D3 again so easily, similarly to how Chao has just with avoiding replacement. With them not being here, even in a smaller circle of players they could probably coast due to how many inactive players there are.

[Deltabreedy]

UNVOTE: Blue
VOTE: Kawaii

Shoes don't taste nice, if you've engineered this then I'm not making the same promise I did when you led me by the snout last game.

[Deltabreedy]

Wait that was Mala?!?

[Deltabreedy]

What in the - I thought that was a Black vote, so I skipped the preview and just posted.

[Deltabreedy]

If Kawaii is town, then MALA first

[Deltabreedy]

And frankly, I'll be the first to join you there.

[Deltabreedy]

That's a tactically timed vote from Mala if ever I saw one

[Deltabreedy]

Mala KNOWS that you were considering hammering me

If Kawaii now flips town that solidifies the scumteam in my mind as Mala/Blue

[Deltabreedy]

IF: Kawaii is town

Mala knew that we were going back and forth in what I think was a pretty one-on-one conversation, and they've tactically timed that vote in order to erase for good any trust that you have in me.

You can scumread me all you want and need to, and you can shout at me for my poor play in post - but tomorrow we HAVE to push Mala. Lim between us with Andante having the deciding vote if you need to, but it has to be her after that.

Ninja'd: Right?

[Deltabreedy]

Listen I'm not expecting you to believe me on this - but what I do need is an ounce of faith that Mala has come in with this action that is very literally DESIGNED to get you to mistrust me.

[Deltabreedy]

It isn't me! Lim Mala D3 and then we can reason between what the craic is D4.

Why would Mala need to do that to save me if I were their partner when all it does is cast doubt on me and guarantee a lim tomorrow?

Think critically about it - it doesn't save shit it just postpones what would be the inevitable. Mala has done it very deliberately to sow doubt and ITS WORKED

Ninja'd: WHY WOULD MALA DO THIS TO SAVE A PARTNER - look at the outcome! It's fairly clear that if I was scum and mala was scum, that we've lost the game in this scenario. You were literally about to hammer Kawaii with me, so how does her hammering save me?

Its all very reactionary, but just LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED and tell me it makes me her partner.

[Deltabreedy]

Like not in-the-moment because it literally does look like a co-ordinated hammer, but look at the motivation behind it.

I've just made a case on her partner, you've started to come around to it but still suspect me.
Mala comes in, lims Kawaii, immedately kills your suspicion of anyone else because you've JUST SEEN your 2 major SR's hammer someone.

After this I'll be surprised if Kawaii flips scum. If he does, then where do you look?

[Deltabreedy]

Here, present, catching up.

My kneejerk reaction to the claim is that the crumbing is painfully minimal.

I attempted to draw a nightkill out from scum in D2 in this post:

General Reads:

I'm

- only seeing defensive and explanatory posts - no gamesolving from Mala.

T

- hink Blue is acting super weird. The rolefishing plus then just quite openly sheeping Andante just doesnt sit right with me. Scummiest read of the game for me so far.

R

- eading through and disregarding the 'locktown' attitude that Andante has on Black, they are in a weird spot for me. I don't know why Andante has this implicit trust of them.

C

- hao has barely said anything this game. There's a lot of words but they say very very little. Chao hasn't really taken a solid position all game and I feel is the most guilty of active lurking.

K

- awaii apparently doesn't care enough to post.

*snip*

And that is a crumb. Crumbing is not mechanical proof of role, and the crumbing that Mala points to really doesn't do it for me so when you combine that and the horrible interjection yesterday to land the hammer, I think that Mala is at this stage essentially confirmed in my mind as scum.

I think it was really opportunistic, and if by running with Mala!Scum we then intimate that Andante is a Friendly Neighbour, then the opportunity to hammer a town tracker which may well have been rolecopped would be too good for scum to pass up in as opportunistic a manner as possible. I think I was also a viable lim target since I was working an angle on Blue hence Mala putting me at L-1. Blue blending into the background by voting for Mala creates distance, means they aren't involved in what they know to be a town lim so I think this is the solve.

ISO's to come over the next 24 hours.
Thoughts?

[Deltabreedy]

Why are you saying you're a JK without being able to be confirmed by night actions?
Also, I mean you didn't declare intent, just came in and voted during a conversation in which Black and I had literally just come to a kind of agreement to lim kawaii. People in glass houses and that.

You put them at L-1, you're just as culpable as I am for the Kawaii lim.
The crumbing is pretty awful and feels desperate - you HAD to claim post one in the day else Black and I may well have worked to take you off the board and Andante/Black feel like they've voted pretty consistently together all game.

It's all very convenient how it fits together for you and I don't see Scum!Dante claiming FN D2 if (as your claim would have us believe) we were in the column that has a RB not a Rolecop. It's not a mechanical clear, but I don't see Scum!Dante taking that chance of being CC'd, or indeed making the claim when there is a 1/3 chance of getting it in the slot where neither PR can say it's an incompatible claim.

Trying to assert that the odds are 1 in 2 also feels disingenuous.

--

Ninja'd: Yeah if what you're saying is true, then Andante couldn't have done the NK - the logic wouldn't work if you really were a JK. You know your own night actions, why would you then go on to say something that is completely incompatible with your claimed actions?

[Deltabreedy]

I honestly feel ready for a Mala lim

[Deltabreedy]

No, I think Andante did the NK hence why I used JK as RB'r

If Andante did the NK
And you JK'd Andante

The only way that works is if you were Roleblocked.
With Black suspecting you heavily, myself suspecting you marginally and there being a fair chance of you being limmed tomorrow, I don't personally think you would have been an optimal target for a RB in an Andante/Blue scenario. My gut says that this is a 1/3 choice for scum (assuming what you say, it being Andante/Blue) between You, Black and I after the NK on Alianna which isn't awful mathematical odds, but it also doesn't take into account your D2 inactivity for much of it, where it was just Black and I going hammer and tongs and being strong characters.

The assumption that you're essentially asking of us is that a role blocker selected their lim target as the person to target with a night action and I just don't see the odds working on that.

[Deltabreedy]

I think throwing shade at Blue is a distancing effort and you've managed to maintain a scumread on them all through D2 without once voting for them or justifying why you hold this read.

[Deltabreedy]

@Mala: Reading today you seem convinced that it's Blue, why? Take your time, I know I won't be hammering anytime soon and I want to give you a spot to say your piece and give us your solve, and I'd be keen on the following questions:

1. You put me at L-1 yesterday, but you now seem convinced that it's Blue and not me. Can you justify this for me?
2. Why have you not voted Blue this game despite a targetted ISO showing that you have held a scumread on them all game?
3. Why are you not considering Andante/Black?

Take your time on this and decompress, no rush - the day won't be ending anytime soon and I'd like a response that is a bit more measured and calm than an AtE and capital letters.

My mind is close to made up, but I made the mistake last game of not letting someone have their say and it lost the game.

--

@Black, Blue

I feel ready, want to hear Mala speak over the next day or so RE: the above but keen on your thoughts because we also have tomorrow to go over and find scum again. Under this I am going by the assumption that Andante is town having a bad game RE: their actual powers which is pretty bad tbh.

Andante's claimed Night Actions are reasonably convenient, but I'm at present more convinced towards Scum!Mala - let her say her piece first.

Ninja'd, but none of it affects what I say above.

[Deltabreedy]

God I'd love being a genius of that caliber.

Why are you so convinced it's blue and not me?

I hate meta but

You've fooled me before. Keen on hearing why you're so convinced when yesterday you were pretty sure it was me.

[Deltabreedy]

If I read through your ISO and do a control+F looking for Kawaii, am I going to find a case that you made on them?

Cause if not, you were advocating for the lim of a townie based on nothing.

Ninja'd: Whatever the result, I think that this game was damn near ruined by over half the players in D2 being inactive for various periods of time with I think only one announcement of V/LA.

Ninja'd with the Kawaii votes:

I don't really see anything that constitutes you casing them and explaining it? Like

#863's

'I don't see anything that's town about his {Kawaii's} posting at all' comes at a time when you had put me at E-1 so the words mean significantly less when you were looking at removing me from the board over someone you had 'cased' all game.

[Deltabreedy]

EBWOP:

*snip*
Ninja'd with the Kawaii votes:

I don't really see anything that constitutes you casing them and explaining it? Like #863's 'I don't see anything that's town about his {Kawaii's} posting at all' comes at a time when you had put me at E-1 so the words mean significantly less when you were looking at removing me from the board over someone you had 'cased' all game.

[Deltabreedy]

I never said that I you randomly voted.

What I am saying is that whilst you had intent, your justification was weak and you never really pushed for the lim. It was your 'preferred option', but it was never something you truly pushed and you were happy to go with other options quite easily.

Can you acknowledge #1044?

Ninja'd: Want a confirmation that you'll be looking at and replying to #1044 before I address that.

[Deltabreedy]

Blue's best chance of survival is to try and force you to lim between me and them D4, given you were pretty convinced it was me after thee hammer D2.

[Deltabreedy]

Well yeah we're either going to go through to Day 4 or lose tonight and in the scenario above, there's no other way it works that I see of Mala/Blue winning the game.

I'm incredibly nervous because you were ready to put me to the sword D2 and if you do it in D4, even if we lim correctly today, we lose.

Doesn't hurt to have that information in the open, and if you do end up limming me D4 it sets up a nice 'told you so' in post.

[Deltabreedy]

I mean there's a chance yeah, but I don't think the maths or the associatives support it.

That might change if Mala answers #1044 but I don't see much adjusting my read

[Deltabreedy]

Mala, are you not going to acknowledge #1044? Cause if not, I'm just going to vote.

I want you to say your piece and give us your solve but if you aren't going to do that then why shouldn't I vote for you?

[Deltabreedy]

I asked twice because you didn't acknowledge the first time I asked. Just wanted it to be on your radar.

No rush - just something that goes through your arguments in detail. Happy to wait.

[Deltabreedy]

Sorry, I found myself without an internet connection for the last 12 hours or so.

And the last 30 minutes too?

No commentary on the game or is this just prod-dodging?

[Deltabreedy]

I mean you're here now and not contributing, just retorting. You were gone for 38 hours in Lim or Lose so I don't think it's unreasonable to come back to people critiquing that.

[Deltabreedy]

So who do you think the partner is, if you exclude yourself?

[Deltabreedy]

I mean, if you were town you would?

The only way you don't have a choice is if we're right about Mala and if we're right about you being scum.

Shouldn't even really -be- a choice - the implication is that you don't think it's me, despite scumreading me at the end of D2 and being prepared to hammer. To suddenly pivot from that to me being town in your eyes with a choice between Black/You, it suggests that you're more motivated by survival in Lim or Lose than you are motivated to lim scum.

[Deltabreedy]

I'm happy with the solve, but I'm committed to honouring my promise of letting Mala speak.

[Deltabreedy]

@Mala

Not pressuring you along, but can you manage my expectations on when we can get a response to #1044?

[Deltabreedy]

SIR
i'm just having a bad day. I kinda want space
i'm calling out ofwork so youll get your response tmrw

but i mean you stated regardless of whatever i say your view isnt gonna change
so its shitty to demand something that you are prob gonna disregard and ignore anyways

i have been trying to get u/black out of your tunnel

look how andantes posting is one liners

but it pisses me off that youre still think andante is confirmed town without being actually confirmed town

It's Shitty?

Naaah nah nah nah screw that I'm literally giving you an open floor to state your case and I'm being patient, but I'm being shitty?

I also wasn't pressuring you for a response - I was asking you when I could expect one.

I've also never said Andante was confirmed town and I was the first person to openly consider scum!dante.

Shitty? Bringing up Skitter to goad a response is the shitty bit cause you know how bad I feel about that.

That's properly ticked me off that

[Deltabreedy]

I hope you have a better day today.

[Deltabreedy]

I've read through, had a think and just have to go with my gut.

My gut says Blue.

VOTE: Blue

GG whichever way the flip goes.

Pre-emptive 'Fuck Off' if it's Black.

[Deltabreedy]

Fairly sure this is it though

[Deltabreedy]

Fucken YES lets go

Sorry for tunnelling Blue

[Deltabreedy]

Tbf I played pretty badly

Was convinced you and Andante were Masons when I stopped SR'ing you and then never really restarted after the claim haha

[Deltabreedy]

Oh I did SR you towards the end of D3 to be fair because I knew less and less who to trust but I figured just stick with my gut and commit.

I will say that poor activity kind of killed the game for me for a while

[Deltabreedy]

Like someone explain it to me real clear that isn't committed to lying like Venmar. Someone please.

[Deltabreedy]

^^

The flip to me being the person with the hammer felt so weird. Probably would have been better to off me and let Andante follow her run on Black from post-hammer D3, but hindsight is 20/20

[Deltabreedy]

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee