Newbie 728 -- Fin.

[Korts]

/firm

Hi!

I'll be your IC (as in Inexperience Challenged, meaning I have a couple games under my belt) for this game. I hope you'll enjoy your time with us.

A couple notes of interest: there is a link to the mafia wiki at the top of your page. Feel free to browse and read; however, I advise you not to take every article word for word, some of the things discussed there may be out of date or subjective. Meta changes relatively fast on MafiaScum.

I specifically suggest you read the Commonly Used Abbreviations article. You will find many phrases that will pop up in in-game discussion.

Otherwise, play fair, and try not to get personal. If you have any questions, turn to me, anticollie (the other IC), or the mod, and we will help you.

@anticollie: I think we're the only two ICs here.

[Korts]

Look in your profile. There should be a button for this feature.

[Korts]

[Korts]

1) Didn't confirm in the standard /confirm fashion, but rather cut that in half. /firm may not get the point across to everyone. God.

Is it my fault I'm firm? God. And it's not some con, either.

3) He was helpful. I hate that.

vote: RIDICULOUS

Because a) you're ridiculous, and we can't have that; and b) bandwagon gogogo!

[Korts]

Vote: Conspicuous_other

, as he is the most conspicuous of the bunch.

Ah name puns. How I love those.

[Korts]

That's RIDICULOUS.

(see what I did there?)

[Korts]

(see what I did there?)

Nope.

--------

And I'm keeping my previous vote (Korts) and FoS (Anticollie). I feel weird having both ICs 'randomly' voting on the same player. It's almost as if they planned to jump on RIDICULOUS in some pre-Day strategy conversation. Suspicious.

And yes, I do know that I should have absolutely no reason to group the ICs together like that. Deal with it.

From a scum viewpoint, what gain would any scumteam have from wagoning someone to L-3 (lynch minus three votes)? There is no particular motive to plan a two-vote wagon.

We could equally say that you could be trying to eliminate both ICs early to rob Town of its most experienced players, as part of some pre-Day strategy conversation. Suspicious.

And you could be grouping both ICs together because, as scum, you know exactly who is in which group.

I'm not sure I like the implication that Serplat is scum for making a weak accusation at the very beginning of the game. You respond to a baseless hypothesis with another baseless hypothesis.

[Korts]

Serplat, do you see any motivation for scum to plan a two-vote wagon pre-game?

[Korts]

Serplat, do you see any motivation for scum to plan a two-vote wagon pre-game?

Not really. The other game I've played was 7 player, this one is 9. I was thinking of it more as a 7 player game, with 4 to lynch. That would be an easier quick lynch, if newer players either:

1) Don't pay attention to the number it takes to lynch
or
2) Figure that the two IC's would never lead them astray

What is the likeliness, in your opinion, of both of those two happening, along with the likeliness of a majority of players riding the very first bandwagon of the game to a lynch?

[Korts]

I thought I was special...

4 players still isn't an easy quick lynch with only two scum, but I can see how the shift in game sizes can cause an elevated level of suspicion.

But if you're going to think it's odd that Korts and Anticiollie both voted me early, it's simply illogical to completely ignore my second vote on Korts, as well as the other miniwagon on C_O. The ICs shouldn't garner any extra attention just because they're ICs; especially when it leads to dissecting every bit of their actions while ignoring those made by others.

Why draw attention to the two competing wagons? Feeling anxious?

[Korts]

Overtones of scum? Why? I got the OMGUS. That's obv obv. But scum?

No connection for me. Do tell.

I meant that OMGUS is often thought to be a scumtell. So I've gathered from the other games I've read anyway.

Like Anticollie said, you'll probably get told wherever you are on this site that it isn't. The short explanation is that OMGUS presupposes that the single reason for voting someone is that they are voting for you; however, this does not happen in practice, because there is always more of a reason than that, and no-one votes simply because they are voted; sure that might be the reason they looked at that particular player, and sure, the vote itself might be an important factor in context, like so: "you voted me when the bandwagon was building up; you were opportunistic" but it doesn't change the fact that the underlying reason is never as simple as Oh My God You Suck.

[Korts]

I don't really see any need to feel anxious about having a pair of votes on me, especially since they were both made during the initial random voting phase.

Why? Are random votes worth less?

unvote, vote: Conspicious_other

[Korts]

I understand the point against over relying on scum tells, especially in newb games but I'm not sure about Anticollie's first point. Are you basically saying we should try to see things from there point of view and see how there actions make sense as town or mafia?

Yes, that's the gist. The most effective way of scumhunting is analysing motivations; basically what this is is you look at a particular action and judge whether the particular player would be motivated to do any such thing as scum or town. If scum are more motivated than town to act that way, then you have someone more likely to be scum through motivation.

[Korts]

I think Conspicuous_other could be scum.. Korts pointed out he might be anxious with the two votes on him. C_O points out there were 2 votes or a "mini-wagon" also out there (granted during random voting phase).

By the way that was RIDICULOUS, not C_O. So you built a whole case on a tell made by a completely different player?

PS. sorry for the triple post.

[Korts]

I think you misunderstood me, I was trying to say that you're confusing C_O with RIDICULOUS.

[Korts]

Obviously they're not actually worth less, but it's hard to take a bandwagon (though I'm not really sure if you can call two votes a bandwagon) seriously when all of the votes on it were made before any real content was available and made with reasoning that was not entirely serious. Unless you really DO think my abundance of capital letters is a scum tell? =)

Don't be RIDICULOUS, of course not. (I've decided, I'm going to have a lot of fun with your username in the future )

Just out of curiosity, why the vote change?

I'm not sure yet. Proving a point, partly.

[Korts]

I'm not sure yet. Proving a point, partly.

What was the point you were making?

(Sometimes it's hard to phrase something in text so that it doesn't seem hostile. Every time I wrote a variation on "what point" it came out aggressive, so I'll just have to explain here that I'm just wondering )

It would probably work better if I had put someone at L-1, not a simple L-2. My point was, you guys are tip-toeing around too much; if anyone puts a player near lynch without adequate reasoning, any good town will jump on them demanding a reason. My point is, grow a pair guys Your vote is a tool, use it already. FoSes are overrated; they are no real pressure, I have never seen anyone lynched by FoS. If you want real reactions, put some heat on your suspects.

[Korts]

Quick B/W is totally a tool used by scum.

I beg to differ. Sudden pressure is a very useful tool in town hands, if applied right.

The Ben wagon is indeed on a completely flawed premise: I see no motive for scum to purposely change the names, unless Ben and RIDICULOUS are scum together, and RIDICULOUS has been fairly pro-town up to this point.

Of this whole wagon I think Serplat came out looking the worst; he only voted when I encouraged him. Caution is one thing, but I'd expect scum to jump at an opportunity like this: and IC telling the town that voting to near lynch is an acceptable move.

[Korts]

POSE AS A TEAM, 'CAUSE SHIT JUST GOT REAL!

My vote is well placed, look:

Anyone else think this looks a bit like OMGUS?

Anyone else think this looks like scum asking for the town's feedback and support?

This seems like some WIFOM. "If I were scum I would have voted, not FoSed".

This seems like making a point for the sake of having a seemingly larger case. The point Ben made was that accidentally accrediting a quote to someone else than its author isn't scummy; the other point that he didn't vote on it is irrelevant here.

1. I think even Korts, who originally made the point about RIDICULOUS that you are basing the vote on, would agree that that's a very, very weak argument to be basing an entire vote on.

I don't think so. almightybob was making a scumtell about something that isn't; Ben is right in thinking that that is vaguely scummy. And vaguely scummy is better than random, therefore vote away. Seriously. I support using your votes; if the best there is is a weak argument, fire away. Something more solid will come up sooner or later.

Korts, you've been poking around an awful lot. If this was a normal game where we were all experienced, I wouldn't think too much of it, but since this is a newbie game, could you be trying to bait someone into making a mistake?

I feel it's important to set a dynamic pace to the game, because if we just sit around with votes in pockets, nothing's going to happen.

[Korts]

My vote is well placed, look:

Anyone else think this looks a bit like OMGUS?

Anyone else think this looks like scum asking for the town's feedback and support?

Well, you just did the exact same thing, so...

Yes, because purposeful hypocrisy is funny. No seriously, I got the feeling from that line that you're breaking the fourth wall and turning to the audience/town for a brief comment that "yes, this guy is scummy hint hint".

This seems like some WIFOM. "If I were scum I would have voted, not FoSed".

This seems like making a point for the sake of having a seemingly larger case. The point Ben made was that accidentally accrediting a quote to someone else than its author isn't scummy; the other point that he didn't vote on it is irrelevant here.

O.k., this is just getting ridiculous (no pun intended). I didn't say that, this is a misquote.[/quote]

That's right, my mistake. It's probably the fact that almighty's post was right below yours and both were bigger than my screen... I guess I proved the point that if ICs do it on accident, it's not a scumtell with newbies either.

I wasn't talking about the vote on almightybob, I was talking about the original vote on me that came from RIDICULOUS making the comment about the multiple mini-wagons.

Um, what? Benmage didn't vote you, not once. If I'm interpreting this wrong let me know, but you're not making any sense as far as I can see. Quoting would probably help.

(Sorry about the double post, but I feel like an idiot for missing this the first time. I catch so much the second read through...)

Korts, what was your initial reasoning for voting for me? You never gave one.

Fishing for reactions. I expected people to jump on me shouting "L-2, DON'T MOVE" and "WHAT IS YOUR REASON". You in particular because you were the player that I could put closest to a lynch besides myself.

Korts, you do realize that you're indirectly responsible for Serplat voting for Benmage, right? You being an IC and him being a newbie, he probably just assumed that you were trying to give out some advice to the new players. It looks to me like you used your IC status to make someone look scummy who wouldn't have looked scummy otherwise.

I'm not just an IC, I'm also a player. But yes, I realize that Serplat's vote was partly because of my encouragement; and all I said was that he came out looking the worst of those on the wagon, not that he was particularly scummy for it. His reasoning for voting Benmage is still invalid, though.

Why offer the advice if you know it's gold for scum?

Call it a trap if you will. I doesn't particularly implicate anyone, though; see above reply to C_o.

FoS Korts for now. He has seemed fairly Town so far, but this is a strange move.

This seems slightly opportunistic. Keeping as many options open as possible?

3) Your increasingly prevalent carelessness with targeting (wrong name, voting for me when your vote was already on me)
4) Trying to shift attention to me for "jumping the gun" by changing my vote, when my vote was only the second one on you and put you in no real danger

These two points bother me, too. But my gut read of Ben is town, for some reason. Maybe the too obvious carelessness. I'll take a harder look at that feeling when I have the time.

4. Changing your vote.. no no no no connection to that... the jumping the gun statement was based on the haste in which you so readily voted for me (following a pretty weak argument imo) and were willing to do so with the thread so lacking in information. (scummy imo)

I myself have moved my vote without reason. Why fail to mention me?

[Korts]

I will read and answer everything tomorrow; it's past midnight here, and I'm wasted. Sorry.

[Korts]

Of course I'm keeping my options open. I'm not ruling anyone out as scum yet. Having said that, now that you've said it was an ineffective trap, my suspicions of you are slightly lessened.

RIDICULOUS said it better than me, in post 122. You kept agreeing with every major point raised, and the fact that you FOSed me after multiple players expressed suspicion on me made me notice this. Apologies for not being clear.

Hm. Well your experience lends some credibility to your gut read, but the whole "too obvious to be scum" thing sounds like the "too town to be town" fallacy. It's all a little vague. Please do go back over BM and see what you think, I'd like some more feedback on this.

"Too scummy to be scum" is just as much of a fallacy as "too town to be town". My point, however weak and WIFOMy it was, that I would expect scum to be more careful with their responses once they feel the pressure. I didn't feel that carefulness with Ben; however, his posts seem to be much better organized and thought-out since that post of mine, so I'm beginning to doubt my read of honest townie flailing.

I don't like Rastous' post 113. He answers to almighty's request for input in ca. 3 hours, but before that, he doesn't post for two days; before that, there was four days of no posting from him. And he jumps on my wagon immediately, saying how I haven't hit his scum meter, yet also expressing desire to vote bar a lynch.

Going on about using your votes to put on pressure and there is no point no voting then turning around and calling him scum because he agreed with your logic?

I agree this was a mistake. It was a poorly executed bait, and I've retracted my stance that it was scummy of Serplat. FWIW I hadn't noticed he FOSed Benmage beforehand.

You then brought up almightybob as being bad in keeping all options open, why? Tunnel vision in players, especially this early with little to no evidence can really really hurt the town and let the mafia get away with things they otherwise can't.

I hadn't seen almighty doing anything much other than support others' arguments. There is nothing wrong with "tunnel vision" if it isn't taken too seriously. I personally think that linear scumhunting is the most pro-active, and keeping a wide net of suspicions is a minor scumtell because that player will be able to jump on almost any wagon with prior justification.

If there’s any FoS I have out there (if they mean anything)

Don't worry, they don't. They're purely for show and for clarity of suspicions, so game mechanics-wise they are useless.

Good question, I looked back at it and there isn’t real initial reasoning behind it. Kinda scummy imo by Korts. However he does later defend his vote. In post 96 by Korts:

You misunderstand, my post 96 wasn't the initial reason for voting C_o. I'd explained it earlier that I was simply baiting the town to prove a point. I was assuming that since you had all been so cautious before, you'd jump all over me for an L-2 vote; this was meant to prove the point that L-2 votes aren't dangerous because the whole town will notice and question the voter.

How can you honestly say that post 91 wasn't calling him scummy? You say that he looks the worst, and that you expect scum to do what he did. If saying that someone's actions are what you'd expect out of scum isn't saying that they are scummy, I'm not really sure what is.

Very good. I said he looks the worst of those

on the Ben-wagon

, and I said I'd expect scum to do such a thing. I didn't consider his earlier FOS, though, and that makes this point against Serplat null.

almighty, look at these two posts and explain please.

Call it a trap if you will. I doesn't particularly implicate anyone, though; see above reply to C_o.

Fair enough. Bit of a pointless trap if it doesn't catch anyone, but points for trying I suppose.

Seriously, guys? All he has to say is "it was a trap" and you guys go from being all over him to taking your votes off and declaring your suspicions lessened? Could it have been a trap? Sure. But it was a rather scummy one, in my view.

And mine. It did lessen my suspicions, because while I was posting "Why?" I had already suspected it was an attempt at a trap, so when Korts said so, it lessened my suspicions of him.

However, they were only slightly lessened. That post is still a big red flag for me, and your point about the contradiction is definitely valid. Before this Korts was seeming fairly Town to me, but now I'm keeping a weather eye on him.

Why concede points to me if you were ultimately still considering that post of mine a "big red flag"? You are flip-flopping as the wind blows in different directions.

Why does it make me look any worse than the people who jumped on the bandwagon? Yes, I know you later said that you weren't calling me scummy, but it came off that way. And you were certainly putting me at a higher level of suspicion then everyone else.

I have to concede, again, that I didn't see your initial FOS.

In other news: RIDICULOUS is extremely pro-town at this point. C_o is also slightly pro-town.

Anticollie hasn't really added much to the conversation. His questioning of Benmage is appreciated, but I'd also like his stance on other recent happenings when possible.

[Korts]

BTW can I ask everyone who doesn't have an avatar to get one? It makes it so much easier to identify each poster.

[Korts]

That being said, I will make one tip for those compelled to post "scum lists" or "Most wanted lists." A member of the scum may easily use these lists to discern whom to kill. If a member of the game is "generally" considered town by many people, he/she contains less possibility for a lynch, and is therefore a good night kill. It is within our interests as town to keep these thoughts to ourselves, and to avoid statements like "I think Anticollie is a town member, because of posts 3, 9, 42, and 64." Particularly because these posts often spur "Oh yes, I concur" posts which effectively accomplish what I described above.

This can be a fatal mistake for us as town, and something you see happening often in regular games across MafiaScum. We would do best to avoid them, and as we have yet to have this kind of conversation/post, I think it's best we nip it now, eh?

I disagree. It is almost as much in the town's interests to publicly confirm town players as town and narrow down the pool of suspects as catching scum is. It is only the reasons for a town read that should not be made public, not the read itself, since using those reasons scum may try and better fit the profile of "town".

[Korts]

Hmm. I realize a lot of players give voice to serious doubts regarding pro-town suspicions, but I'd like you, if you have ample time, to read this game, because it proves the following point: scum will feel confused and won't take it in their stride if townies start calling each other town.

[Korts]

Mostly Day 1. The short version is that roflcopter, the pro-town doctor pegged one of the town as town in the first couple of pages, and kept adding more people to the town list. The scum were among the people who called him out for it, in fact the most vocal and immovable of those against it was; in addition, he made sure that any person attacking those people, and destructor (one of the players he called town) particularly (since consensus agreed with his read on him), would have a really hard time coping with the town. Add to that the role of doctor being possibly present and the scum having to decide between eliminating a seemingly confirmed town and having a failed kill, and you have scum with a headache.

[Korts]

Hum. Good point on Dipstick. Dipstick, here's my offer: if your next post isn't a full-on analysis of the game I'll seriously consider lynching you.

Meanwhile, note how Rastous' defense is a simple "that's how I always play" except in three paragraphs and an outraged tone. I'd like to ask you, Rastous, to read the game again and this time bring something new to the table. Try finding a scumtell, there are always a few leads.

[Korts]

I'm stumped. On first glance there are no real leads that I can follow; I'm planning to comb through these seven pages for something. However, most of this game is stalling for lack of input from Anticollie and Dipstick.

Dipstick, my problem with your post is that it's mostly a simple summary of the game. Please look into actions that have scum motivations. Try to find some lead to get us back on track. And not just Dipstick, all of you should do a reread at this point.

[Korts]

My vote is well placed, look:

Anyone else think this looks a bit like OMGUS?

Anyone else think this looks like scum asking for the town's feedback and support?

Well, you just did the exact same thing, so...

Sorry Serplat, CO just took your place as JD's favorite newbie in this game. This is an excellent point. I'm not going to comment on it because I feel it speaks for itself.

Ok, this post makes me strongly suspect you. I don't believe you didn't notice the oversized sarcasm tags. Compare the part I quoted to the part where I commented on it; notice how the format is exactly the same; let the realization that I did it entirely on purpose grip you. Moving on.

I am most wary of RIDIC, ben and Korts, and have the most favourable impressions of CO and Serplat. This is probably the exact opposite of what Korts thought, which I find oddly hilarious.

Not the exact opposite, to be frank. Rastous is my top suspect right now, with Serplat second, and almighty third. C_o is second most pro-town after RIDICULOUS.

In other news: RIDICULOUS is extremely pro-town at this point.

I thought it was the Netherlands that legalized pot?

Are you questioning my read, or the fact that I state it?

Korts main defense is in my view extremely faulty. You can't just turn around after using false logic and say "hey I didn't mean it really; it was a trap; sorry I was wrong!". He has suddenly become much more calm and less aggresive in playstyle since people started voting on him and spent his time mostly deflecting peoples attention away. I really don't feel he has acted in the best interests of the town at all and now I have to decide whether that was just a mistake, or a scummy move.

Rast leaps to #2 on the JD-is-pretend-playing-favorites list. You're slipping, Serplat. Cough up the intelligence you had in your earlier posts.

Finally, Anticollie. I feel he has contributed nothing to the thread and has lurked much more than I have been blamed of. He questions Ben about changing his view then seems to feel that is enough and off again. I'm not sure whether this is simply a lack of play time (I really understand that), or something more. The fact is that reading through the thread and understanding what people say takes more time than typing responses so I find it weird he couldn't contribute more.

Couldn't agree more.

I agree that basically all of it has been mentioned before, but I never had any intent to offer it up as if I suddenly came up with the ideas. I stated the points which I agreed with without all the quoting crap which I find hard to track often. People reading through the thread will know which ideas have been mentioned before.

In general, most ideas will have been said before at some point. I make no apology of the way I stated what I thought without "due credit" or whatever to the person who first posted the ideas. It is how I make my points in general since just because they may have been stated before by someone else, doesn't make me adding my opinion less relevant.

I admire the way you say this. It reeks of sincerity.

All this agreement is wholly redundant. The one purpose I can see this serving is buttering Rastous up and/or tying him to yourself, although the latter would presuppose you being a lynch target, so I'm going with the former.

What game are you reading? Stop holding back.

Holding back? The game really didn't have an abundance of leads to pursue without Collie and Dipstick weighing in.

BTW any actual points against me beside the "BACKING UP" and baiting Serplat? I concede that the latter didn't help the town, but the former is bullshit.

INCONCLUSION

I agree with this.

[Korts]

OK, so do you want us to grow a pair and throw our votes around a bit more, or do you want us to never move our votes on "paper-thin, barely-there reasoning"?

To be honest I don't see the conflict of ideas here. On the one hand the advice is to follow your suspicions with all you have and without holding back; on the other hand, the advice is not to make crap cases that have little to no basis (when applicable i.e. after pseudo-serious discussion goes into full-fledged serious).

[Korts]

Korts hasn't exactly hit my scum meter

Having said all this, Korts is still my main suspect since I feel his defense is really dodgy.

Thanks for quoting these gems, Ben. Why the sudden change in opinion? Perhaps the growing support of the case on me had this influence on you? Note that these two quotes were from two consecutive posts of yours.

BTW guys it's JD not DJ

[Korts]

Going to post here after I caught up in more urgent games.

[Korts]

Sarcasm and your actual motive are not mutually exclusive.

Well, since my actual motive was to point out a scumtell, no, they aren't mutually exclusive. But if you suppose that I actually was being sarcastic, I don't see how that would be consistent with the supposition that I was looking for feedback on the point.

This is a newbie game. When I agree with something, and I think it was good that they stated it, you're probably going to see me comment positively on it. The entire reason I came back to ICing was to stop the influx of newbies whose best qualities weren't fostered just because the ICs in the game wanted to use their same-old, dried-up, useless and methodical ways of playing.

Fair enough. Did you expect such an accusation?

[Korts]

The hypocritical part was more of a joke that I was telling you that you made a good point about JD telling people that they made good points...

Hahaha

As for the game, I'm fairly supportive of a JDodge wagon, slightly less so of the Rastous one, and I definitely had a feeling there's a connection between them while reading JDodge's checking-in post(s); and I've completely lost track of why I'm voting C_o. Looking it up it seems it's still the initial reaction-fishing vote, so

unvote, vote: Rastous

(L-1)

[Korts]

Simple: his is the superior wagon, and the difference between the two levels of suspicion is not so significant.

Also, I was interested to see who would ask me that question. I note that C_o didn't; strange. He read thoroughly enough to see that it was an L-1 vote, but not that it wan't consistent with my stated suspicions.

[Korts]

I think we've waited long enough. Unless anyone voices any objections, I'll drop the hammer in an hour.

This strikes me slightly as opportunistic while looking to the town for feedback. Your defense of being tired of the "circle of life" is lacking especially since Tom had just replaced in. Even if you don't want Rastous replaced, what stops you from listening to Tom's analysis? (I realize you retracted this stance once Conspicious_other called you out, but the initial stance still bothers me. Your reply to C_o implies you hadn't particularly forgotten about Tom)

In the beginning, a lot of what I read from Korts was simple poking-around-looking-town, but that ended fairly quickly. It has become pseudo-established that he was fine in "laying his trap" in post 73, seemingly randomly voting for C_o.

Ugh. That wasn't my "laying a trap" part. That vote was to simply prove to the people afraid to vote that any unexplained near-lynch vote will be questioned, by them, and the conclusion from that should've been that there is nothing to be afraid of when you have reason to place your vote.

one of which was a misquote (which people were jumping on Benmage for doing at this time, but not Korts, which made me scrunch-eyebrows while reading)

Ugh again. You really think that the misquoting was something that scum would more likely do than town? I wasn't jumping on Benmage for it didn't reflect on his alignment in any way. I pointed out that his suspicions should lie elsewhere based on the point he made, and the thing was settled as far as I was concerned.

Only until C_o asks in 98 what the vote was for does Korts respond in 109 with "fishing for reactions."

See the answer to "laying a trap".

TBH I'm looking at this Day 1 lynch as damage limitation. Even if Rast IS Town, he's clearly the least valuable Town, and since I have no other major candidates, I'm still happy with a Rastous lynch. Trading his life for all the information we'll get is a good deal in my eyes, plus he might even be Mafia.

I'm uncomfortable with this post. It is sub-par play to lynch solely for information, and for what it's worth any one of us might even be mafia. This is not a case on which to lynch.

I just realized, searching for Rastous' last post in-game, that while JDodge was indeed connecting to Rastous, Rastous hadn't posted to imply a two-sided connection as I somehow believed earlier. Add to this almightybob's eagerness for a hammer but wanting to wait for the town's blessings first, and you get a wagon that I don't believe in.

unvote, vote: JDodge

JDodge is a seasoned player who knows enough to start leaving fake connections early on, so Rastous is only very slightly implied by him.

(The logic behind connections is that scum are more likely than town to express partnership accidentally or purposefully, and since we can't know what their intentions were and whether they knew they were leaking a connection, such percieved connections always implicate one side (the one who leaked the connection) considerably more than the other.)

I have to agree that I think Korts vote to make it L-1 was a little hastily. He would’ve known bob was eager to vote Rast from his previous posts, and he didn’t have to be the actual one to drop the hammer. (avoiding unnecessary attention) He doesn’t give much of a connection other than associating Rast with JD. Seems like scum setting up a quick hammer that no one will ask a lot of questions about or point many finger.

Very fair point; my defense is this. My memory had cheated me into believing that Rastous had posted something along the lines of "thanks JD for the kind words and agreement" which I had interpreted as confirmation of the connection between them, which would've been the crowning point of the case against him. Now I have gone back through Rastous' posts, there is no such post (in fact he hasn't posted since JD replaced in).

And yes, almighty, I switched around my list of suspicions and explained little because I wanted to draw opportunism and wanted to give scum a temptation to bus.

[Korts]

I already explained that the difference between the JDodge and Rastous suspicions wasn't particularly big, which is why I was comfortable on both wagons; I think a lynch is due soon.

And then I realized that Rastous hadn't posted in reply to JDodge's multiple agreements with him (which I thought he had) in a way that would imply a two-sided connection. So the point by which I had tied Rastous to JDodge was invalid; the connection is actually one-sided, which implies only JDodge of the two.

It's only natural that I'd vote JDodge, no?

[Korts]

I would rather have Rastous come back and defend himself, because any replacement can't be held accountable for Rastous' actions in the same way...

Nevertheless, I agree that setting a deadline once replacements are settled is probably the best course of action.

[Korts]

Some of JDodge's points imply that he wants any lynch, not a scumlynch. Notice how he brings points to the table that have no bearing on alignment or are otherwise useless/generalizations:

It's a mafia game - you have to assume that every point you raise will be responded to. I don't buy it for a bit.

Here's a hint: Lynching scum is more helpful than lynching town. Since you don't care either way, should we lynch you for being unhelpful as well?

(also note how he implies knowledge of Rastous' alignment, further proving the connection)

Translation: "Let's not hold Rastous' replacement to the same standard as everyone else, k? that would be super cool."

Note that what I've said is basic knowledge in situations like this; also note how he's trying to pin me to his scumbuddy.

If I'm lynched, let it be known that my suspicion list goes thus: JDodge in the lead, followed a little back by almighty and Rastous. I'm fairly sure RIDICULOUS is town, and C_o gives me town vibes as well. I'm null on Serplat and Benmage, and I haven't got nearly enough interaction from Tom to be able to judge.

[Korts]

Some of JDodge's points imply that he wants any lynch, not a scumlynch. Notice how he brings points to the table that have no bearing on alignment or are otherwise useless/generalizations:

It's a mafia game - you have to assume that every point you raise will be responded to. I don't buy it for a bit.

Was a direct response to your quote.

My point is that you try to make a scumtell out of something that isn't. It may not be helpful to the town, but unless you can prove to me that scum are more likely to be sarcastic than town, I don't see how usage of it has any bearing on alignment.

1. Serplat said "scum or not", which also implies connection as much as my quote did. OH LOOKY THERE, YOU CONVENIENTLY LEAVE THAT OUT TO GO AFTER THE BIGGEST THREAT TO YOURSELF

Serplat's "scum or not" implies that it doesn't matter to him what his alignment is, while your "lynching scum is more helpful than lynching town" seems to imply that the latter would be the case WHAT DO YOU KNOW WRITING IN CAPS DOES NOT MAKE YOUR LOGIC SOUND

2. I was not generalizing - I was pointing out that his reasoning sucked. Pay attention. Funny how much these can get twisted when you take them out of context, isn't it?

And that's what you exactly did: take something and comment on it without context. Rastious was up for questioning, and without his answers the game was stalling.

1. lol "LET IT BE KNOWN"

lol, second language, give me some slack

2. What you've said is not "basic knowledge". People need to be accountable for their own actions. If you replace someone, you are them. Hence you are accountable for their actions. Duh.

Yeah--nice in theory. Since when does a replacement know the motivations and thought processes of their predecessor? They can be held accountable, but not in the same measure.

[Korts]

I feel you've been slightly opportunistic all the way through.

[Korts]

Will comment on this tomorrow, I'm too tired to argue.

[Korts]

What do you mean, opportunistic?

(detailed list of votes made omitted)

Opportunism doesn't necessarily show only in voting. You've expressed suspicion always on the people who seemed under the most pressure, and your presented ideas and cases reportedly sounded a lot like previous notes from other people; if those aren't signs of opportunism, then I don't see what would be.

Your first "trap". Clear scum motivation: it works both ways. If no-one calls you on it, you get a wagon built up. If someone does, you claim trap and try to shift suspicion onto whoever "fell for it". Plus, if the whole thing fails completely, you can always go back and say that, after a re-read, you understand the situation and no longer find the person's behaviour scummy. This is exactly what you did.

Which trap was this? Clarify please. Because the "getting a wagon built up" and the "shift suspicion onto whoever fell for it" are, to my mind, related to two different actions I made.

Then there's you voting for C_O in post 73 to put him at L -2 with no reasoning. Same logic applies: It works both ways for scum. If no-one notices that you didn't provide any argument, bingo - a Town is that one step closer to lynch. If someone does (C_O called you out a few posts later), you just react like this:

Fishing for reactions. I expected people to jump on me shouting "L-2, DON'T MOVE" and "WHAT IS YOUR REASON". You in particular because you were the player that I could put closest to a lynch besides myself

I was proving the point that the town was tiptoeing around too much. This is a bullshit point. It's pure speculation and there's a clear motive as town

as well as scum

to do it.

[/quote="Korts"]This seems slightly opportunistic. Keeping as many options open as possible?

Now, surely it would be worse play for me to brush it aside and think "No, not Korts - he's seemed so Town". But no, instead you call me for "keeping my options open" as if I should already have pinned down my definitive scum candidates and only concentrate on them, at page 5. [/quote]

Ok, so you admit to having expected me to take you as town for buttering me up on the one hand while still making it clear how you think the move was "strange"? And yes, you should at least have some targets to pressure. Or if you don't, find some. Regardless of page number.

Also, here is when you start breadcrumbing the "opportunism" thing against me, so that no doubt when I ask "why haven't you been saying I was opportunistic?" you can pull out all these quotes in the hope that people will take them at face value.

NO DOUBT that is the only reason I could have said that, instead of, you know, trying to analyse your motives for doing things the way you do.

The Rastous/JDodge thing was never a trap. I had nearly equal suspicions of them, so I decided to join the bigger wagon, because frankly, this game is in constant need of a kick in the ass.

Your points are, frankly, weak. Wherever you discuss how I could've done this or that as scum, I had just as much motive to do it as town.

[Korts]

Bah, go town. Scum is JDodge and almighty/Rastous IMO. RIDICULOUS is likely town, and C_o gives me town vibes as well; the rest are questionable.

[Korts]

Sorry, Flameaxe!

[Korts]

I'm sorry for my bad play here

gg Ben, I wouldn't have really suspected you. And Serplat, too.

[Korts]

I'm sorry, I'll have post-game comments up in a couple days. Semester is killing me.