Newbie 728 -- Fin.

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/confirm.

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Vote: Korts

Counter-bandwagon gogogo!

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4 players still isn't an easy quick lynch with only two scum, but I can see how the shift in game sizes can cause an elevated level of suspicion.

But if you're going to think it's odd that Korts and Anticiollie both voted me early, it's simply illogical to completely ignore my second vote on Korts, as well as the other miniwagon on C_O. The ICs shouldn't garner any extra attention just because they're ICs; especially when it leads to dissecting every bit of their actions while ignoring those made by others.

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I thought I was special...

4 players still isn't an easy quick lynch with only two scum, but I can see how the shift in game sizes can cause an elevated level of suspicion.

But if you're going to think it's odd that Korts and Anticiollie both voted me early, it's simply illogical to completely ignore my second vote on Korts, as well as the other miniwagon on C_O. The ICs shouldn't garner any extra attention just because they're ICs; especially when it leads to dissecting every bit of their actions while ignoring those made by others.

Why draw attention to the two competing wagons? Feeling anxious?

Not at all. I just felt that it would support my point of not tunneling on what you and Anticollie are doing if I drew attention to the other two vote wagons that were being ignored.

I don't really see any need to feel anxious about having a pair of votes on me, especially since they were both made during the initial random voting phase.

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I think Conspicuous_other could be scum.. Korts pointed out he might be anxious with the two votes on him. C_O points out there were 2 votes or a "mini-wagon" also out there (granted during random voting phase).

A reasonable association, but also possibly a scummy move.

Pretty sure you're referring to me there, as I can't see any point where C_O did this. So I must ask you: What makes what you refer to as "A reasonable association" a scummy move?

As far as town goes, I think Korts is shaping out to appear most town-like.

Why?

Why? Are random votes worth less?

unvote, vote: Conspicious_other

Obviously they're not actually worth less, but it's hard to take a bandwagon (though I'm not really sure if you can call two votes a bandwagon) seriously when all of the votes on it were made before any real content was available and made with reasoning that was not entirely serious. Unless you really DO think my abundance of capital letters is a scum tell? =)

Just out of curiosity, why the vote change?

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Ahhhh i see the error in my ways.. i was simply reading other posts and confusing names. But holy crap did a firetrucking bandwagon hop up on me on the littlest of mistakes.. holy shit.. honestly I guarantee one of the three who voted against me is definitely mafia. FOS on Serplat, axel and almightybob.

You sound

awfully

sure of yourself. Why are you so convinced?

And what prompted your view of Korts as the most pro-town in your previous post?

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I feel like it'd be a little tedious and kind of redundant to go back and comment on everything that has happened since i last posted, so I'll highlight some things that I found odd/worthy of note.

Anyway, as I implied previously, Benmage's guarantee of someone being scum struck me as odd. I found nothing wrong with his initial misnaming, but his reaction since then has been panicky/frustrated, and prone to dismissing what others are saying as nitpicking (he only said this directly to someone once, but it seemed to be implied in the statement about Korts making logical arguments that others were as well). He also does a little "nitpicking" of his own about people saying he voted instead of his FoS, but that's little more than icing on the cake and I don't see it as a big deal. He seems to attempt to appeal to Korts here and there, i.e. his naming of him as pro-town, and his posts definitely seem to have a different feel now that the pressure has been lessened. I am finding them as a whole less confrontational.

Also, this has been stated before, but making a big deal about whether one votes or uses an FoS is kind of silly.

C_O: You and the town as a whole backed off of Korts awfully fast after he said he was simply laying a trap.

Call it a trap if you will. I doesn't particularly implicate anyone, though; see above reply to C_o.

Seriously, guys? All he has to say is "it was a trap" and you guys go from being all over him to taking your votes off and declaring your suspicions lessened? Could it have been a trap? Sure. But it was a rather scummy one, in my view. Not to mention that there's a blatant contradiction in this post:

But yes, I realize that Serplat's vote was partly because of my encouragement; and all I said was that he came out looking the worst of those on the wagon, not that he was particularly scummy for it.

Of this whole wagon I think Serplat came out looking the worst; he only voted when I encouraged him. Caution is one thing, but I'd expect scum to jump at an opportunity like this: and IC telling the town that voting to near lynch is an acceptable move.

How can you honestly say that post 91 wasn't calling him scummy? You say that he looks the worst, and that you expect scum to do what he did. If saying that someone's actions are what you'd expect out of scum isn't saying that they are scummy, I'm not really sure what is.

I think I'll need to read them all again to get a hold on that although from a first read thourgh it seems almightybob has done the best in keeping a logical arguement going which in my view is the best way to scum hunt.

I agree that almightybob has kept a logical argument, but it seems to me that a lot of the reason for this is that much of what he says is often a rephrasing of or piggybacking on something that someone else previously stated. This kind of initially started after Anticollie's initial rejection of his assertion that C_O's OMGUS vote had scum overtones, in my view. Since then, his posts kind of have the feel of laying low and kind of following along with the opinions of others. In fact, aside from the posts where he's directly questioning Benmage, all of them contain a quote followed with him saying that he agrees with said quote or that it makes up an interesting point.

Vote staying as is for now.

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Seriously, guys? All he has to say is "it was a trap" and you guys go from being all over him to taking your votes off and declaring your suspicions lessened? Could it have been a trap? Sure. But it was a rather scummy one, in my view.

And mine. It did lessen my suspicions, because while I was posting "Why?" I had already suspected it was an attempt at a trap, so when Korts said so, it lessened my suspicions of him.

However

, they were only

slightly

lessened. That post is still a big red flag for me, and your point about the contradiction is definitely valid. Before this Korts was seeming fairly Town to me, but now I'm keeping a weather eye on him.

If I'm honest, I was probably trusting him a bit too much before. It won't happen again.

Understandable. I can easily see how it can be viewed as an attempt at a trap, and it probably was intended as a trap. But I still see it as a tactic that could have easily been formulated with anti-town intentions.

what i said

Agreed.

No but really, laying low? I've posted more than anyone else in the thread. Whatever else you may accuse me of, I certainly haven't been laying low.

If you dislike my posting style of quoting things I agree with, I can try to stop. I find it easier than repeating the whole thing and often other people express what I'm thinking better than I could, but I see what you mean.

I would like to point out though that, while I may agree with some parts of quotes, I point out and explain the parts I disagree with as well. See post 111 for my disagreement with Korts' "too obvious" and post 95 for my objection with Korts' "totally flawed premise".

I'm not just blindly agreeing with whatever anyone says, I am actually pointing out the parts I agree and disagree with.

Laying low is probably the wrong set of words, and I have no problem with your posting style. I'm positive that I'll do the same thing at some point or another. And yes, I know you don't agree with literally everything addressed.

What I AM trying to say is that while you are saying a lot, it seems like most of it is you just following others' lead. The part of my post referring to you isn't a complaint about your posting style as much as it is an observation about the content. When I looked over the thread, it seemed that a lot of your points were often a rephrasing of something that someone previously said or you agreeing with something that someone previously said, especially in the posts that are attacking other players. When Serplat first attacked Benmage, you hopped aboard and expressed agreement with him. When Korts called Serplat scummy, you seemingly were in agreement with him as well. Then when C_O votes for Korts to get his attention, you're on board with him too. Which is it? You've been hopping around quite a bit, and often from agreeing with someone to turning around and attacking them once someone else does it first.

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It was perfectly clear, and your reasoning makes sense.

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Rastous, you're accused of lurking, show up, post something about you having tunnel vision completely out of the blue, then write four paragraphs that do almost nothing but sum up the views of the town. Of course you do throw in your own opinion here and there, but then you say you aren't sure.

That was so ridiculously wishy-washy and noncommittal that I can't help but to

unvote

and

Vote: Rastous

.

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It is how I make my points in general since just because they may have been stated before by someone else, doesn't make me adding my opinion less relevant.

Where in that post did you add your opinion? I disagree with C_O. You aren't doing what almightybob did. Almightybob at least took a stance on what he thought, although that stance did jump around several times. You're posting full paragraphs on each thing someone else has said and then refusing to add your opinion by saying that you aren't sure yet.

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Why are we so focused on Anticollie and Dipstick when Rastous has done the exact same thing?

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Lots of things I agree with, J, several things I don't.

Yes, because purposeful hypocrisy is funny.

BEEP BEEP BEEP

BACKING UP
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I'm going to be labeled a lapdog for saying this, but seriously? The initial post being referred to here was absolutely dripping with sarcasm.

Korts main defense is in my view extremely faulty. You can't just turn around after using false logic and say "hey I didn't mean it really; it was a trap; sorry I was wrong!". He has suddenly become much more calm and less aggresive in playstyle since people started voting on him and spent his time mostly deflecting peoples attention away. I really don't feel he has acted in the best interests of the town at all and now I have to decide whether that was just a mistake, or a scummy move.

Rast leaps to #2 on the JD-is-pretend-playing-favorites list. You're slipping, Serplat. Cough up the intelligence you had in your earlier posts.

I feel like I said the same thing before, and yet I'm missing out on my favorite newbie points. What gives?

Rastous, you're accused of lurking, show up, post something about you having tunnel vision completely out of the blue, then write four paragraphs that do almost nothing but sum up the views of the town. Of course you do throw in your own opinion here and there, but then you say you aren't sure.

You haven't thrown in a damn thing all game except acting as Korts' lap dog when you think someone needs to be randomly questioned on minutiae. This vote reeks.

Questioning people on minutiae? Maybe. I disagree but I guess I can see where you're coming from. Acting as Korts' lapdog? When in the world did I do this?

Where in that post did you add your opinion? I disagree with C_O. You aren't doing what almightybob did. Almightybob at least took a stance on what he thought, although that stance did jump around several times. You're posting full paragraphs on each thing someone else has said and then refusing to add your opinion by saying that you aren't sure yet.

It's perfectly reasonable to share a stance with someone else. This point fails.

I have absolutely no problem with sharing a stance with someone else. That isn't even what I said. My problem is that Rastous isn't taking a stance at all, and simply saying that he hasn't made up his mind about every thing he brings up except for Korts.

Another thing is, I did the same thing to almightybob. Why didn't that instance get the same scrutiny this one is?

Hum. Good point on Dipstick. Dipstick, here's my offer: if your next post isn't a full-on analysis of the game I'll seriously consider lynching you.

lol@excessively overhanded threat

This post made me chuckle too.

Wow Ridic, you really want that Rast lynch, don't you?

Why hastily lynch two proclaimed lurkers that are asking to be replaced when there's another lurking in plain sight?

INCONCLUSION

Korts really rubs me the wrong way here. Ridic does roughly the same thing, but I can see more of a case for Ridicisjustwrongnotscum. Serplat is also up there. At the bottom are Rast, Ben and to a lesser extent CO.

The feeling is mutual, I assure you. I bet we'll get along just great =).

But your wording confuses me at the end. Are you saying that Serplat is rubbing you the wrong way like Korts and I or that you find him townlike? And I presume you find Rast, Ben, and CO the most townish?

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Been a bit busy as of late, I'll catch up tomorrow.

Mod: Is Dipstick getting replaced?

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Sorry about being mostly absent the last few days, guys.

@JDodge: Glad to see I've gained a few coveted ranks on the list of favorites. I still disagree with you over whether or not Rastous made a stance, and I'm curious about whether or not you actually feel that I was acting as Korts' lapdog or were simply fishing for a reaction.

Everyone else has pointed out a lot on JD that I did not notice previously and I think most of it holds water, but I definitely think there are superior targets at the moment. My sentiments on JD will probably be altered depending on how Rastous flips if he is today's lynch.

I support a Rastous lynch, but I definitely want to hear Tom's thoughts beforehand. No point in unnecessary haste.

If I missed anything that anyone is curious about my thoughts on feel free to ask.

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Responding to this before anything else due to its urgency at the moment:

I would greatly appreciate it if someone would outline why exactly there is such a majority against Rastous. If it includes things other than what I have touched on, obviously I have missed them, but if it has actually simply evolved from his inactivity and his re-hashing of the current game events then I think we are mislynching.

I started this wagon, and I also was surprised when it gathered a lot of steam very quickly after no one was really on board at the start.

My initial problem with the way he was posting wasn't really due to his inactivity or his summarizing of the town's ideas, it was more than anything the way he said a lot without actually saying anything at all. Almost everything he said in his summary was followed by him saying that he wasn't sure about what he just said, and that struck me as a way to make it seem like you're including your own thoughts but being able to back off if someone calls you on it or if it's a point that gets you in trouble later.

I still support a Rastous lynch, but if he flips town, I think everyone on board needs to be placed under a lot of scrutiny day 2, simply because of how quickly things turned from this wagon having little support to being at L-1.

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Unvote

Vote: Korts

Kind of an abrupt turnaround at this stage, and I do still support a Rastous lynch.

Why am I voting for Korts then, you ask?
1. The initial trap fiasco.
2. The quick hop onto the Rastous wagon. This isn't scummy in itself, since you had expressed concerns about him earlier, but when you combine it with...
3. Another wagonhop, this time onto JDodge, immediately following almightybob's votechange. It's worthy to note that after the initial trap affair, I can't recall anyone aside from JD calling attention to you.
4. This part caught my interest:

(The logic behind connections is that scum are more likely than town to express partnership accidentally or purposefully, and since we can't know what their intentions were and whether they knew they were leaking a connection, such percieved connections always implicate one side (the one who leaked the connection) considerably more than the other.)

This seemed innocuous the first time I read it, then the second time through I saw this as you trying to take suspicion off of Rastous and throw it entirely on JDodge. Which I found interesting, since you seemed perfectly willing to support his lynch not long ago. It would have been a stronger instance of a connection if Rastous reciprocated JD's complements of his playstyle, but I don't buy that JD is any more implicated than he, especially since Rastous hasn't posted at all since JD replaced in.

Aside from the four reasons, it just kind of feels right at the moment. Can't really explain why.

I also disagree with almightybob looking opportunistic, and I see nothing wrong with asking for the town's feedback either. If I felt that a hammer was warranted, I would probably have asked for the town's thoughts on it as well.

Also, at this point, I'm pretty sure Rastous is outright lurking. He's probably picking up on prods but just isn't posting. Which is why I definitely still support his lynch.

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Also Ridic and Tom haven't posted in roughly a week, whats up guys?

There really hasn't been much happening in the majority of that week.

The leading wagons seem to be Korts and JDodge at the moment, and I'd rather see a Korts lynch between the two but JDodge isn't exactly topping my townie list at the moment either. I still wouldn't mind a Rastous lynch, but we're waiting on a replacement there.

I didn't think Ant scum nor do I think JD is scum. I do think Tom might be scum because I felt Dipstick the player before him was scum.

What made Dipstick more scummy than Anticollie?

I pretty much disagree with Korts' post #281, and definitely lean more to the side of JDodge's points there. I do agree with Korts' sentiments on almightybob, however.

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You didn't say anything other than "I'm town!", even when they asked you for your thoughts on other players several times. I would have lynched you too.

Great job mafia, I never really suspected Serplat, was a little wary of Benmage day 1 but dropped my suspicions of him rather quickly. You guys played a great game.