Newbie #742 (Game Over!)

[AceMarksman]

Vote:NZ_Arcobaleno

because anyone with an underscore in their username is OBVIOUSLY scum

[AceMarksman]

Posting: It should be done by more people.

[AceMarksman]

This is true. I'm just bored/shrugging off this mound of work I have to do.

[AceMarksman]

Also, vote: AceMarksman. Hi.

Hi thar.

Question for Ting: why do you disagree that asking questions is a town tell?

.....I have no comment...

about what?

[AceMarksman]

[quote=Mastin]Again, while it's quick to jump to conclusions, I am definitely thinking that I've nailed two of the scum, and that those two are either group A (Data, Ting), or group B (Kronos, Jeff). [/quote] Option C: None of the above. Honestly, it's too early to think that you've "nailed" the scum.

[AceMarksman]

I have listed are scummy, albeit in a different way. I'm convinced that if we lynch one scum in the four, the other in that pairing is also scum.

It is way, way too early to make this comment. It's only on page two, yet you're setting up todays AND tomorrow's lynches? Why?

FoS:Mastin

Convince me to remove it.

[AceMarksman]

Data: Do you think being a "bandwagon fan" is scumy?

Reaction fishing, you are doing it?

[AceMarksman]

It doesn´t really matter, does it?

It might, so tell us.

[AceMarksman]

That speaks nothing of emp's mFoS on data.

You're stretching.

QFT, especially the bolded.

[AceMarksman]

Now to vote someone...

Setup:2D6S

1. AceMarksman
2. Caleb
3. Empking
4. Jeffcole1
5. kronos
6. Maturin24
7. Mastin
8. Ting

First roll: 6+2
Second roll: 4+2
Last roll:3+2

Vote: Caleb

Mod: Can we get a prod on caleb?

Why did you go back to randomvotes when discussion was starting? That can stifle discussion.

[AceMarksman]

I was going back through the thread and noticed something that stood out at me.

Their scumminess warrants not only caution,

but investigation

The bolded strikes me odd. What do you mean by investigation? Are you suggesting that you know there is a cop in this game? This statement in general feels all-too-strong for how far this game has gotten, and no one has done anything much as of yet to warrant my suspicions except you.

[AceMarksman]

Very well.

Me: Why in the world post from an alt?
Emp: Accident
Me: .....I have no comment...

This explains

what

you did, but not

why

[AceMarksman]

Was that just a three page day one?!? We just wasted SO MUCH TIME that could have been well spent scumhunting.

Newbie scum mistake number one: Buddying up

Oh really? Well:

Ace continues to look town in my eye

I can't see you as scum; you've acted pro-town, and there are no scumslips.

I think by “I

Can't

see you as scum, you mean “I

won't

see you as scum”. A much more pro-town thing to say would have been “I

don't

see you as scum”. The former implies that you are trying to see scum in places that it doesn't exist, the latter implies that you are trying to find scum where it does. The latter is pro-town, the former is not.

Which is why my vote is on Kronos [for buddying]:
(added part in brackets for context)

Wait, what? The only people I've seen you actively accuse of buddying are Data and Ting

at the moment, my opinion stands: One of the two groups is probably our scum.

To quote one of the IC's of my last game:

Survey says: [

X

]

Chainsaw/Bodyguard defense is defending partner by attacking their attacker, and what you did seems to fit

Really now? Are you trying to pin them as scum because of this? Am I scummy for attacking you, even though your actions reek of scum? You do realize that this is a NULL TELL until the defendee's role is known? To quote the Tarhalindur's Standard Tells wiki page, where this scumtell came from:

After further analysis, Tarhalindur has determined that the Chainsaw Defense is

only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum

(once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a

null tell.

also

The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense.

I'm not going to speak for Ting, but I know that I, for one, am attacking you because you look scummy, not to defend anyone. Ting is not free of suspicion, but you seem to be swimming in it.

[Ting]took asking questions to be slightly scummy.

Something's a town tell only if it's more likely to be done by town than by scum. That's not the case with asking questions. Both sides have just as much reason to ask questions. It's a

null tell.

Yeah, MAJOR misrep here. Did you not see where Ting said that only 7 posts before your own? Major scumtell in my book.

- - -

Whoever hammer´s is obv scum.

Normally I wouldn't agree with this but considering who hammered...

Srry, I've been away.

Vote:Data

Yeah, that's quite obviously scummy. That was his second post

The entire game

and it LYNCHED a townie. Hell, he never even gave any REASONS for doing it. Why? Why would you do this, Caleb. You've sure got a hell of a lot to say for yourself.

The night was too short. Less than twenty-four hours, unless I read the dates wrong. Experienced scum tend to talk their full 72 hours. I can cite examples of this. Newbie scum just basically go, "Oh, hi, hello partner; let's kill XXX, who seems like a threat." and "Sure. I'll send it

False: With the length of day that we had, NO ONE had enough information to do anything, so the night would be short.

With that in mind, I again fall back to Kronos.

Um... and

WHY

?

That bandwagon was way too fast for my comfort level.

Which was completely NULLED by your precondition:

Sure, Kronos had vote on since the beginning, but I think that this is just lurking and not knowing what to do.

Yeah, great reason for a vote.

Mastin and Caleb, you sure as hell have a lot to answer for. I can see Caleb as just being a total newbidiot and not knowing how to play, but Mastin seems to have experience. Therefore:

Vote: Mastin
Severe FoS: Caleb

Explain yourselves now.

[AceMarksman]

I stated back when I joined the game that kronos's budding to Jeff was extremely suspicious.

Quote the post(s) in which this happens.

You seem to act as if these two are somehow related. I fail to see how budding up is related to you seeming pro-town. And I find the opposite is true: 'do not' seems to imply, to me, that I think you are not scum. 'can not', to me, means 'cannot at the moment'. A difference in opinion which has been noted.

Since you're turning this into a battle of opinions, I would like to know what everyone else thinks of this.

..I honestly did not see that section. I might've when I first read the wiki, but the knowledge did not stick. Remind me to reread an article three plus times before linking others to it, please?

Reread an article three plus times before linking it to others .

Not really. I responded to this, right here:

You, from what I understood, took asking questions to be slightly scummy. Townies ask MORE questions. The more questions they ask, the more information they gather, and the more the scum have a chance to slip. So, yes, IT IS A TOWN TELL.

An opinion which further experience might prove wrong, yet I do believe in. Additionally to that, I believe I quoted a page one example which, to me, seemed like Ting interpreting the questions (where I now see it was not the questions, but the questions asked that were in question, upon a reread) as scummy. A slight contradiction is what I saw.

Yes you did, with a misrep. You said he saw asking questions as scummy, where he clearly stated that it was a null-tell. Again, your precondition in parenthesis Nulls this entire argument. A general rule of thumb: If an action needs a precondition, then the action needs not be acted upon.

I would, as scum,

insist upon the full three days of conversation before sending in the night kill. Which obviously did not happen.

WIFOM of the worst kind. The bolded is

particularly

bad. You have no meta to back this up, and I'll be damned if I take you at your word.

that's what I believe good scum should do

[sarcasm]Wow, WIFOM and scum-coaching. I'm convinced [/sarcasm]

Which explains the answer to your next question as well:

Nope.

I wish. The very fact that I didn't read/remember that phrase from the Chainsaw defense is proof enough that I am not nearly as good as I should be.

Extremely

weak defense.

I think that your response is exactly the response that a pro-town player would give, and so I find no comments of yours to question myself.

Not buddying, huh? The above was absolutely not needed AT ALL in your argument. It's buddying, WIFOM, and an appeal to emotion.

I want to know what everyone else thinks, and I want the

mod to prod/replace the lurkers

General discussion questions (will be graded for completion at the end of class. Please use specific examples in your analysis. If this is not completed by the end of class, imma call yo mamma)
1) Do you think Caleb is just a newbie idiot? Why/why not?
2) Do you think buddying is scummy? Would you consider what I quoted to be buddying?
3) LURKERS, WHERE ARE YOU?


Question at jeff: What do you think about mastin?

[AceMarksman]

This game has enough walls-o-text to stop a mongol invasion... so why not add to it?

So you voted Kronos just because he voted for someone for the same reason that someone else did? Does that mean jeffcole must be scum just because he voted for Caleb for the same reason that Ting did?

3) *points up* I FOUND ONE

Yey, Maturin gets a cookie, good boy

Wait a minute, what instance of buddying are you referring to here? Mastin buddying up to you, or Kronos "buddying" up to Jeff? I put the latter term in quotes because I honestly can't find what people (Jeff and Mastin) are referring to about that. By my count, Kronos has posted only three times as well in this thread. The only time he could have buddied up to Jeff was in his first post when he posted what Jeff had posted almost verbatim. Can someone show me something other than that? Because that isn't buddying up to me.

Quoted. For. Truthery.

Do you think that Mastin is buddying up to me?

You say that it was sarcasm. Your supposedly random vote, you claim was sarcasm. Read the post. It sounds serious. It has a serious tone. It has no [/sarcasm] tag.

Erm, I don't see enough words in that post for it to have a tone, yet "kinda lame" doesn't seem like something someone who is being serious would say.

I find your arguments full of solid logic, and you have voiced concerns on pretty much all the players. There is nothing you have said that is scummy, so far. And so, I had no questions on it.

Surely

there's got to be something you have questions about or disagree with. While some (ting) would argue that asking questions are a null tell (I disagree, but theory discussions are moot at the moment), not having anything to say about a post that addresses you is scummy.

Nope.

How not?

[cut]but still, I strongly believe that good scum would use every single moment of that time, regardless of what was said during the day. [cut] Which obviously did not happen. As I said, that's what I believe good scum should do. It wasn't. Leading me to come to the conclusion of newbie scum, possibly without an experienced player to tell them differently.

Kronos obviously does not have experience, nor does Caleb. Jeff I am less certain about. Hence, why Kronos is my #1 for the early bandwagon yesterday, and Caleb is my #2 for the hammer without reason. Because kronos buddied up to Jeff, Jeff instantly holds a spot at #3.

To me, this is fairly self-explanatory. Kronos is the person I think best fits into this category (not to mention the early pairing with another player), and hence, is who I am voting for.

Your first argument is full of WIFOM, and isn't good basis for a lynch. WIFOM can be a GREAT tool, but it CANNOT be your

only

tool.

As to your second argument, a second vote is hardly a bandwagon. I don't see anything suspicious about kronos' vote, yet I see oodles and noodles of scum in Caleb's hammer. Is this the

only

argument you have against Kronos?

Hey kronos, could you spellcheck your posts before you post them? I know that my spelling is absolutely

horrid

, and the only thing keeping me from looking like an unedumacated idiot is spellcheck. Use it, abuse it, buy it cheap chocolate and alcohol, etc.

[AceMarksman]

*sigh*

Hey kronos, could you spellcheck your posts before you post them? I know that my spelling is absolutely horrid, and the only thing keeping me from looking like an unedumacated idiot is spellcheck. Use it, abuse it, buy it cheap chocolate and alcohol, etc.

The same could be said about the preview button, which I fail to utilize most of the time.

[AceMarksman]

Ting’s Post 95 get’s a major QFT from me, and yet Mastin

STILL

doesn’t get it. *sigh* some people.

Anything which pairs someone with another can be buddying. Scum, ESPECIALLY newbie scum, will try to partner with their scumbuddies. Less newbie scum will still attempt to buddy up, but to a townie

Stop with this bs scumtell, it’s just digging your hole deeper.

Second votes are almost never random, and though they start discussion, it easily could lead to a quick bandwagon.

Which you promptly jumped on.

But kronos's posts ring of desperate scum, covering their tracks for an early game mistake. I think that it was a scumslip, a bad one

NO THEY FSCKING DON’T! How has he looked desperate, huh? Absolute BS

You're cutting the vital parts out. It's practically twisting my words if you don't include the whole part of the quote.

No. No, no, no, no, no, no, and no.

Bolded part: SEEMED. As in, it appeared to be, from my perspective. Underlined part. MY CURRENT OPINION. I told you there, yet you must've missed it--my accusation was based off of two things: 1, a wiki article which I missed the second half of. 2: An opinion based off of a misinterpretation of what you were saying. Ace pointed out the first, and on a reread, I realized the misinterpretation

I don’t care, and this is in no way related to the argument. You said Ting said asking questions was a “

SCUM

tell” where he actually said it was a “

NULL

tell”. THAT IS WHAT WE ARE ARGUING. We ARE NOT arguing over your opinion, just over WHAT HE ACTUALLY SAID.

Yeah, I’m tired of saying pretty much the same exact thing after each of Mastin’s points. In conclusion, Post 99=Scummy, and the arguments therein are bull. He’s defensive, and uses MAJOR, MAJOR,

MAJOR

misrepresentations in his arguments.

[AceMarksman]

Mod: Maturin, Caleb, and Empking need proding/replacement.

[AceMarksman]

EBWOP:

Mod: Maturin, Caleb, and Empking need proding/replacement.

[AceMarksman]

*Facepalm* I knew that.

Sorry, I was half asleep when I posted that. Lol fail.

[AceMarksman]

Mastin, I think our problem with the ting argument is that we aren't arguing the same thing. I know that it seemed scummy in your eyes and I agree that asking questions is a (minor) town tell. I, however, was arguing about something you said. You said that Ting himself said that asking questions was scummy, while he actually said it was a null tell.

Two TOTALLY different meanings. How is that NOT twisting another's words?

because we're arguing two TOTALLY different things.

Wow. I thought that I was the only one who, when a complete newbie, used a fallacy-defense not in the wiki. I call it Newbie Defense. "The best defense is no defense", in this situation, "I can't defend myself, so I won't." I was scum in that game. Scumtell, right there. Excuses for lurking are alright if the person has been active in the past, but excuses for lurking by a, well, lurker, can't be trusted. The actual excuse I find a null tell. The slight appeal to emotion and the faulty logic, however, are slightly scummy. Caleb, at the moment, stays my #2.

I agree, that post from caleb was bad, bad, bad, bad, and bad. Did I mention it was bad? Come back caleb and explain your actions.

The scumlist (brought to you by scumhunt enterprises. All rights reserved):

SCUMMY

Mastin
Caleb
Maturin
Kronos
Jeff
Ting

NOT SCUMMY

[AceMarksman]

Ok, seeing Ting's recent post has made me think of something: I suspect a Mastin/Caleb partnership. For a while now, Mastin has had Caleb (who hammered a townie with no explanation and is very suspicious) as his #2 suspect, yet he is voting kronos (who, what? Voted with jeff his first post in the game? yeah, not really suspicious) and has been for the entire game. I don't know what the name of this tell is, but it follows the form of

X and Y are scum. Y does something really suspicious so X FoSses him, yet votes townie Z

This seems to me what Mastin is doing.

General Questions (for extra credit: Meaning I

wont

beat you with a stick if you answer them )
1)Do you see Mastin's actions as following this tell?
2)Do you think Kronos buddied/wagoned in his first post?
3)Whom do you see as scummiest at the moment?
4)Second scummiest?
5)For #3+4, why?

[AceMarksman]

A quick note: I've adopted Ting's method of going through quotes. Something Italicized in a quote is analyzed with something in italics afterwords. Likewise for bold and underline.

Oh, dear. Us here debating, and we've been forgetting to explain to them what they did wrong. It's a newbie game because there are newbies in it. That said, this is a valid newbie excuse, but one that can be read as a scum tell. OMGUS can be involved, and the fact that it was a hammer. I find this to be a null tell. Other opinions on this?

Um WHAT? This just cements my opinion of a Mastin/Caleb scum partnership. Are you seriously letting Caleb off with nothing more than a slap on the wrist because he pulled the newbie card? Hasn’t kronos ALSO pulled the newbie card, but you ignored it? You just said that he OMGUS’d and hammered a townie AND that newbie excuses “can be” scum tells, yet you call it a null tell? What?
@ The validity of newbie excuses: Newbie does not always equal town.

I realized that you thought the questions Emp was asking was scummy, not asking questions itself

HE NEVER CALLED EMP’S QUESTIONS SCUMMY!!!! DROP THIS NOW!!!

How on earth do you keep on misinterpreting me

How on earth do you keep misinterpreting what is said in a game?

Dead Serious I am, as I believe that a single post in a game can determine if that player is scum,

if the slip is bad enough

. Again, I can give an example of where one second, a player appeared pro-town, and the next, he was busy defending himself from getting lynched. It just so happens that the posts needed were both the first, and writing the first post off as a joke later on

Um…

SO WHAT?

? I can give you one (or more) example(s) of a joke lynching a townie per every one of your examples of it lynching scum.

What slip is that, huh? I haven’t seen a bad slip (or any slip, for that matter) from kronos the entire game! Give us proof!

It's true, though. There are no truly random votes. Even with those supposedly random votes, there's almost always a given reason for the vote. What matters is that behind that reason, there very easily could (and probably is) a reason for that vote.

In this case, scum on a mini-bandwagon.

Again,

SO WHAT

?

TWO VOTES IS NOT A BANDWAGON! Stop using this as basis for a lynch!

Furthermore:

And, to a very, very, very minor extent,
-what I see as an attempted early-on bandwagon. Not one of my main points, but still worthy of noting.

Not one of your major points, eh?

I fail to see how I don't answer it.

You’re blind then.

And I gave other reasons as well.

Such as the length of the night being short.

All my logic points to it being him, and in addition to that, even my instinct is telling me that kronos is scum. While I hate to go on instinct, logic--for me--points to kronos being scum as well.

The random vote, and later writing it off as a joke ages later, I find very scummy. Up to the point where I'd rather lynch kronos first and Caleb later.

We have already gone over this. This is WIFOM

Gut isn’t a good basis for a lynch, and explain your logic, because all I see is fallacy

Wait, what? Isn’t your vote already on Kronos? Are you saying that you are considering voting Caleb instead of Kronos? This is also setting up two consecutive lynches, which has

SCUM

written all over it.

It might not be buddying to a partner, but it was buddying.

Using another's reasoning alone (which kronos did) is both leeching off of their logic and sometimes an attempt at buddying.

WTF no, especially the bolded.

Ok, I’m only halfway done with mastin’s post 130, but my compy is threatening to die, and I can’t save this, so I’m going to post it now. Expect the latter half of my

destruction

analysis of the post later.

[AceMarksman]

I still have no idea why you guys even think I'm mafia.

Are you kidding me? Really? Let's recap.
1)You post once in the RVS, and then don't post again till the end of day 1
2) Your next post after that HAMMERS A TOWNIE and you don't even give any explanation
3)You haven't said ANYTHING substantial this entire game
4)You're active lurking
5)And you're not responding to any of the questions/accusations against you.

Explain EVERY SINGLE POINT above, and I MIGHT not switch my vote to you.

[AceMarksman]

O hai thar Kublai Khan! Wait, Kublai Khan? he was a very scummy guy! He should be lynched!

Oh shit, I just made a joke, that means Mastin will call me scummy and vote for me! Oh noes, death by humor.

[/humorous method for demonstrating why lynching people because they made a joke is a

BAD IDEA

]

Anywho, on to more serious matters at hand.

First: My continuation of my

destruction

analysis of post 130

That's a blatant attempt at covering one's tracks.

If someone makes a joke like that, I'd be willing to use a mislynch on them for the joke alone.

The link is part of the case on kronos.

He's dropped more than enough scumtells,

and has contributed just enough to escape prods. He's trying to lay low, avoid suspicion, and let people such as yourself do the work for him by blowing my case full of holes

when it is legit.

That's a major scumtell. Let him defend himself, if he can.

He can't, because he most likely doesn't want to bother with the effort when he knows that I've nailed him for what he really is--scum.

No it's not

WHAT? Did you just say you would

MISLYNCH

someone, only on the basis that they said a joke? That has to be the scumslip of the century

Again, no. Provide quoted examples of the mentioned plethora of scumtells (not the bull ones you've been pulling out of your arse)

But it's not legit

Yeah, you're not tunnel visioned at all (and no, this is not something that "only" townies do. It's used at least the same amount by scum as it is town, and I would say more so). You fail to even consider the fact that he could actually be *gasp* not scum, making this a False Dilemma.

then changed your opinion, which itself would be scummy.

Um, no. It's not scummy at all for someone to change their opinion. In fact, it's more scummy to NOT change opinions at all, which is what you're doing about kronos/kronos' replacement (hai again Kublai)

If Caleb were to be my partner, then I'd be going for a major bus here. Look at me! I'm practically shouting partner of Caleb if Caleb were to be scum. Quite simply put, I'd be moronic, absolutely the stupidest scum player alive, if I were to go for a townie such as kronos all-out and try to defend my partner. If the town didn't believe me and lynched Caleb, guess who's next on the chopping block? I do see Caleb as probable scum, yet kronos is who I think is the most scummy of us. Hence, the vote, and the reasoning behind it.

STOP USING WIFOM AS A DEFENSE. How do we know that you aren't just saying this as a facade? Why should we take you at your word?

Because I think that kronos is the scummiest, and hence, kronos has my vote, and my second (your main) has my FoS. What if it were reversed? If I were voting Caleb as my main and thought Caleb was the most scummy, then I would not think you'd be scummy for voting kronos for thinking kronos is the most scummy, while having a FoS on my second suspect. In fact, it's what I'd expect. I'd honestly be concerned if you voted Caleb.
Un-reversed, that's how I see it. What's so scummy about voting your main, and FoS'ing your second suspect?

I think you made some name SNAFU's here, cuz this doesn't make any sense.

Now this is just stupid. Others have, and would've, seen through the misinterpretation, and pointed it out to me. When they did, I'd either have to continue on with a misinterpretation (INCREDIBLY scummy), or admit I was wrong (slightly scummy). You are correct in that it is a tactic scum might use--but it would be an incredibly stupid move.
1: No matter what I would do, I'd end up looking scummy.
2: There's not a chance on earth that I'd build up enough steam for a bandwagon on a misinterpretation.
It was a misinterpretation. Don't go shooting out a ghosts in the night, Ting. Eventually, the bullets will ricochet from the trees and bite back.

You're seeing what is not there.

It. Was. A. Mistake. Yes, a simple mistake. Not a deliberate scum tactic. As I pointed out, it would be an incredibly bad move. Look at you, right now, on your case against me! Any good scum would know that this would happen, that the one they accused on a 'deliberate misinterpretation' would think them to be scum(my). Perhaps a real newbie would try it, but when a player has enough experience, they'd be called out INSTANTLY for something they SHOULD know but supposedly didn't. I fail to see the logic in me using this tactic. Especially since I did not.

Again, STOP WITH THE WIFOM. Soon, I'm just going to start ignoring everything of yours that starts with "If I/he/she were/was..." or "Scum would..." or "Hypothetically speaking..." or "Why would I..?". Just stop it.

Actually, no. He's shooting at your misinterpretation, which

to you admittance

is there. In fact, I would direct this statement at you. Stop seeing tells where there are none, and ESPECIALLY stop pushing for a lynch on those tells alone

The mistake was not pointed out until day two.

Had Data not been lynched in less than twenty-four hours, I would have the chance to unvote, and then both of you could've pointed out the error in my logic.

In fact, I think you might have, but I wasn't logged on to see that post, now, was I?

If I had been given the chance to reread on day one, and Ace had pointed out the paragraph about the bodyguard defense that I had missed, then I would have said the same thing day one, and realized my error then.

I DID read your post wrong. It should be painfully obvious that this was the case. Besides, half of the case I had built on you involved Data being scum, which Data was not.
It is now you who is stretching your case out.

False, Ting and I both pointed it out D1

Stop with the WIFOM… again. For the Third time

Yes you did, and misinterpretation is a scumtell. Don’t start telling us to ignore something majorly scummy that you do, while pushing a minor tell by another player. So no, Ting isn’t stretching his case

There's yet another reason for my vote that I had not realized until now--pressure. Or perhaps I did realize it before: He's cracking under the pressure, in my opinion.

Or he's just flaking? Honestly, one weak case and vote does not amount to much pressure at all.

Of course I know it. Every player here knows Caleb looks scummy. Caleb's the easy target for the scum. If he isn't scum, then it'd make sense for the scum to go hard after him. Which is definitely not what I'm doing. If Caleb is scum, though, that would make it very easy for the partner to go, "Oh, hey, look! Mastin was going for kronos instead of Caleb! Lynch that scum buddy!" For the first, I don't see any reason whatsoever that would explain me going after kronos if I were scum--as has been pointed out, it only attracts attention away from Caleb, one who'd I'd want dead, and onto me, someone I definitely would not want to see lynched. As scum, as I have said, it would not be good to target kronos if Caleb is pro-town. If Caleb were scum, then, obviously, I would be next on the chopping block.

Wow, WIFOM AND Logical Fallacy. You've got me convinced

No matter how you put it, I just don't see why me going after kronos would be a smart scum move at all. Do point it out, again, will you?

Just because it is a bad scum move does not mean that Mastin the Infallible won't do it. For the fifth time, stop with the WIFOM.

As I pointed out, I fail to see the logic in my actions for a Mastin-Caleb scum pair. I am smart enough to know that anything but a buss on Caleb would make me instantly the one likely to be lynched the day after Caleb. Say, in this situation where you see me as scum, I do get my target (kronos) lynched--who goes next? Yea, the one who pressed for said lynch--me. Quite simply put, there's no logic I can see which would explain the actions. No matter how I look at it, going for kronos would be a stupid move as scum.

For the SIXTH time, stop using WIFOM. See what I'm getting at here?

Oh, yes there is. Every single part of it, really. For that post, and the 'it was a joke' post, I'm more than willing to lynch kronos.

As I stated before, I am 95% certain he is scum, and am almost willing to bet my mafiascum.net career on it

.

Can you say the same for Caleb?

Or me, for that matter?

good for you

Possibly

Absolutely

The 'random vote' is scummy, and it isn't truly random. The parts of it that aren't random are a factor in what makes it scummy. They are related.

So, by your logic, my random vote on your predecessor because he had an underscore in his name was scummy?

As I said, joking-->Scumslip, in my eyes. So, we wouldn't be in lylo. We'd have lynched a scum, and have a few more mislynches because of it. As I said, I'm almost ready to bet my ms.net reputation on kronos being scum; if I were to be wrong, then I would gladly lose the game for being so off.

Wait, so now your word is God, and everything is how you see it? Just because you see Kronos as scummy does not mean that he actually is scum. This whole

post

paragraph stinks of scum.

I can give a link of my only experience where I've seen another accused of having Tunnel Vision. So don't yell at me, but my experience tells me that Tunnel Vision is an accusation of someone thinking a player is pro-town, yet only focusing on one player. (Again, I have a link, and can even show you the exact page)

Can you link me to an example where the person making the accusation is also accusing the player of being scum?

Because, well, if you can't, then my experience will tell me that you just now called me a townie with tunnel vision.

SO WHAT

. I don't care if you can find me an example of a dragon that shoots rainbows out it's ass, that doesn't mean that it's gospel or even true.

Yeahbullshit. He was IN NO WAY calling you a townie. Furthermore I'M calling you scummy for being tunnelvisioned.

He had accusations against him. He wrote them off as him joking. And someone really shouldn't make a joke, AND THEN LATER WRITE IT OFF AS SUCH. It only makes them look more scummy. Even in the random voting stage. It shouldn't be done, yet was.

So mafia should be a game devoid of fun and humor? the first two paragraphs of this post were a joke where I called for Kublai's lynch. Should I be lynched for it?

Not pure speculation. I can give a link to where scum had a very, very, very short conversation. Where they basically said, Hi, Partner, and then started the day, where better scum (as pointed out on page one) very easily could delay the start of the day to converse more with strategies--and SHOULD do so.

Again, Dragons and Rainbows. I really don't care if you can find an example of that, as I can find you an example to the contrary. Also, for the SEVENTH FREAKIN TIME, stop using WIFOM.

Again, I can't seem the article for this particular move. I didn't have much time yesterday, but once I post this, there will be far more time for me to find it. A link to it would save me time, though.

Something doesn't necissarily have to have a wiki article written about it/has to have occured in a game before to not make it true. Remember those Dragons and Rainbows?

- - -

And yes, people really shouldn't joke during the random voting stage. Oh my, imagine if everybody made jokes during the random vote stage.

THAT right there was funny.

- - -

Caleb, please come back. To help your endeavors:
1)Who do you see as scummy and why
2)Can you list people in order of scummyness?
3)Answer my two sets of General Discussion questions (part one was day one, and the extra credit was a few posts ago day two)

[AceMarksman]

Gah! I just had a huge post typed up and MS decides to log me out when I hit the "preiview" button. Damn Y_Y.

Actual content to follow (meaning Mastin, fear my next post, even though it won't happen probably for another 24 hours)

[AceMarksman]

Ok your entire last post had scum smeared all over it. A general key: everything in

orange

means "This part of your argument is Tunnel Visioned"

First off, if this were still day 1 and I asked a hypothetical question of "Why is it dangerous to put someone at L-1?" then immediate answer would hopefully be "Because scum could run in and hammer!".

Amazingly this actually happened in the game, but the ratio of posts caring about this is pretty slim. Caleb admits his vote was an OMGUS vote. He's shown no desire to debate, to scum-hunt.. hell, he doesn't even think his actions were wrong.

Says the person who simply stinks of scum, [/orange]in my eyes. People have been focusing most of their attention on me, yes, (do feel free to correct me if this is a false assumption, Ting, Ace), but that would probably be mainly due to the fact that, well, Ting, Ace, and I have previously been the most active posters on the thread.

However, plenty of attention has fallen onto Caleb.

And, well, could you point out where he said that he said he didn't think his actions were wrong? I've seen him explain his actions, but must've 'missed' the part about him saying that 'they were not wrong'.
The other points are all valid,

and experience tells me that newbie scum are more likely to do this, as, well, I've been newbie scum, unable to find a way to scum hunt nor a good debater.

Far from it. Caleb hasn't been looked at enough at all, and I think Kublai touched on that nicely

So just because Caleb and Kronos were newbies, that automatically makes them scum? You admitted earlier in the game that you were also a newbie, yes? Doesn't it stand to reason that you would make the same mistakes? This is a weak argument

Well, honestly you're either a well-meaning but seriously misguided townie or you're scum.

To a certain degree, I feel you just pulled a False Dilemma. Option C: I am a pro-town player, who thinks he has the scum,

and is correct.

Aren't you a hypocrite? Most of your argument against Kronos/Kublai is a False Dilemma. Also, your option C, sans tunnel vision, is the same thing as option A.

Would you have rather had me go after Caleb, my secondary suspect?

When kronos remained my #1 and you, as his replacement, still do?[/orange] [sarcasm]Yea, that would not be scummy at all.[/sarcasm] You maintain my #1 spot. I have my vote on you. What's the problem with that?

The problem is that your case against kronos/Kublai is weak and Tunnel Visioned. It would help my view of you greatly, and might lessen your Tunnel Vision, if you were to do a more in depth analysis of the other players in the game.

Not intentionally. As I have said, Caleb remains my #2. Meaning I have been more than willing to talk about him, and have done so a great deal throughout the day.

Kronos--and now, you--remains my top suspect, and hence, is who I am focusing the majority of my attention on.

But you haven't said much about Caleb at all. What you did say seemed to me like you were letting him off easy, which in turn stifled discussion on him. It seems like you are trying to get people off his back. Saving a scumpartner, perhaps?

A very poor choice of words, when I've already given accusations of buddying throughout the game.

[sarcasm]Yea, my opinion of your townieness just skyrocketed through the roof for this comment.[/sarcasm]

Yup.

That's just another bunch of evidence against you, in my eyes.

Agreeing with another players points is not buddying. The town HAS TO agree on certain points if they are to lynch scum. This looks like you're saying that everyone who agrees with points against you is scum. Kublai just replaced into this game. There hadn't been any original points left up in the air for Kublai to put forward, so what were his options? He could have either a)not said anything which would have not contributed at all, b)repeat arguments that had already been said or c)give a new interpretation of some arguments already stated. He chose option c; he brought up some aspects of points that I had not seen before

This was an emotional attack and a douche bag move. This had NOTHING to add to your argument, and will only serve to cause tempers to flair. It's manipulative and scummy, and is something that you should absolutely NOT do. Iaun even says in his rules list-

*I expect all players to do the following:
[snip]
=not make personal attacks

so, don't make personal attacks.

Leeching off another's logic. Use your own words, add your own thoughts. Otherwise, I find this to be incredibly scummy.

He wasn't leeching off my logic! That was a SMALL POINT in his argument. I would agree that it would look scummy if the ONLY thing that he said was "O hai gaiz, yah I 'gree wit Ace lol", but he didn't. He added his view on the game, and gave a new perspective that I hadn't thought about.

The case against kronos is pretty weak and circumstantial.

Says the person who replaces kronos, as in,

the person who also knows I am right and is trying to discredit me. The case is strong enough, in my eyes, to warrant a vote.

But your case IS weak and circumstantial

Twisting of circumstances, a further scum tell. There were leaps and bounds between the two. The first was a misconception, dropped when I realized I was wrong. I pursued my main suspect, and through the course of the game,

kronos's posts only condemned him further, and the longer the game progressed, the more I became certain of it. Yea, do you know about the 95%? It's now 97%.

He wasn't twisting anything. You did go from trying to add to the discussion (using the tells) to using flat out appeals to emotion ("staking your career") and Tunnel Vision.

Says the one who is being accused.

Some of the opposition is flat-out ridiculous,

and I have countered with my own reasoning.

My case is legit, and strong enough for a vote.

So people being accused have no right to defend themselves? If that's the case, you should just shut up right now

What do you find to be ridiculous (the back of my head does not count )

And what do you think I've been trying to do?!? Defend my reasoning for a vote alone? I've been trying to show the town why you are scum, to convince them.

To me, this seems like an attempt to mislead the town and yet another way of trying to discredit me.

And yet, we are not convinced, and we wont be on your weak and circumstantial case.

Now you're getting really defensive. Kublai was offering up honest advice to you, and you shoot it down because it looks like he's "discrediting you"? Seriously man, you need to relax

But brow-beating and ignoring counter-arguments is getting you nowhere.

You're either only browsing my posts, or flat-out trying to change the facts to your advantage. I'm definitely thinking the second option. I've responded to almost every counter-argument thrown at me.

No, this is a false Dilemma. Those aren't the only two options, and frankly, I would have to agree with Kublai on this. While you aren't "Ignoring" counter-arguments, you are so Tunnel Visioned that you write them off as unimportant.

Even if you're right (and you're not, BTW), you need to learn when to push a cause, and when to wait until you have more evidence.

Guess what? You just gave me more.

I've been pushing, and every day that passes by, the case grows stronger on you.

Especially the part in the parenthesis.

One of the accusations against me is that the town can't trust my word. Yea, like I can trust yours at all.

It's weak wifom, and yet another nail in your coffin.

That's his point, you're pushing too hard. You've got to learn when it's apropriate to push a topic and when to back off, and now is the time to back off. You're digging yourself a hole by continuing to advocate his unconditional lynch.

This is really hypocritical. I can't count on just one hand how many times you've said that your view on kronos/Kublai being scum is absolutely correct, and yet you're bashing someone for saying that it's not? What?

Says the scum. Also, this is just leeching off of the logic previously used by Ace and Ting, who both went into greater detail than you did. Yea, you, a townie...I just don't see it.

We've gone into more detail because we've had a lot of time. If Kublai were to go into the detail we did, his post would have been humongous and would have taken days to finish. Your whole case on him "Leeching" revolves around a small point, and yet it's all you're focusing on at the moment. I do agree that you saying "If I were scum..." is scummy, and to my knowledge, that hasn't been said before.

And now you flat-out accuse me of misunderstanding what a scum tell is. I know darn good and well what a scum tell is! I know it doesn't instantly mean mafia. My posts should make this very, very clear. You're yet again manipulating the information to your advantage.

I've seen the evidence, I've looked at the scum tells, and the one who has the most, who seems the most scummy, is you. Hence, the vote on my primary suspect. I've already made it perfectly clear who I have concluded is scum. I've given the evidence, reexamined it myself, and at the end of my train of thoughts, the result is still the same: You, being scum.

Yet your ENTIRE CASE revolves around one scum tell! You've been exhibiting multiple (WIFOM as a defense, Tunnel Visioning, False Dilemma, and a mixed bag of various Logical Fallacies). How is Kublai manipulating the information? Both Ting and I came to the same conclusions as him, so are we manipulating too?

If you are so certain, why not just place the second vote on me? Put me half-way to being lynched? Are you afraid that a second vote on me without scum hammering will make you look extremely suspicious? [sarcasm]Yea, that's a pro-town reaction, alright.[/sarcasm]

There's another nail in your coffin, my friend.

Because he isn't as Tunnel Visioned as you are. Don't forget, this is his second post this game, and a vote your second post as a replacement is a little fast IMO.

But there is neither a nail, nor a coffin to nail it in

Now I don't really have much analysis on the rest of you guys just yet.

So I'll keep what I got to myself.

Seriously?!? Okay, that's perhaps yet another one of the scum tells in the books.

I would know.

Saying that you have theories on the other players, perhaps even logic, yet not posting it (the underlined part implies that you have something already but are withholding it), is something that is incredibly scummy.

I'd know; I did it as scum.

And yet, you also say that you have yet to analyze the other players of the game. Scum, already knowing their partner, have trouble doing this most of all.

I would actually halfway agree with this, though not to the extent of Mastin. Withholding information is slightly anti-town (but not scummy, there is actually a difference). If you've got something good on us, then say so.

The rest of this paragraph, however:

Um... no. It's not really scummy at all, just not all that helpful to the town

I really don't care what you did as scum. You're not Kublai, so you can't use your meta against him.

This is Kublai's SECOND POST. It's really hard to make a concrete analysis of everyone in a game having had only about 48 hours to look at them

My experience with one against the world has been bad. It shows the one that fights against the rest has been a townie, not scum. Twice in the same game. Can't link you, though. So...yea...there's yet another reason which actually clears me a little. Can you link me to an example of where one scum was against the opinion of the whole town? I've also got some other links in reserve if need be to counter it.

I don't really care what your experience with Mastin v world. This is an example of Correlation Implies Causation. Your CIC:
You were town.
You were lynched.
It was you versus world
Therefore you versus world means you're town.
This, however, is false. I think the most likely reason that you came under Mastin v world was bad play on your part, and you were just coincidentally townie.

I'd like to see other people have a chance to make cases against other people.

So you can leech off of them with your own case against them as well.

Yea, I'd be disappointed with my vote anywhere but on you, Khan. Way to defend yourself! You just made me think you're even more scummy than kronos did, all in a single post!

This shows how TV'd you are. You automatically shoot down a very pro-town request as an attempt to leech off others, when it isn't.

...I have no choice but to be a little biased towards this actually being a town tell.

I have played epicmafia and know better than most people how things work around there, and, well, Caleb's actions match those of a townie (a bad one, but still a townie) on there.

It would be impossible to explain, as the only way to know how it feels is to experience it yourself. Flash fiction mafia games work much differently than forum mafia games, with only a few fundamentals remaining the same.
That said, I think Caleb just now asked for replacement. Caleb, can you confirm that you'd be willing to have someone else replace you?

Erm WHAT? No it's not. If anything, it's a null tell. Just because it's someone's play style (playing scummily?) does not mean that they're not scum. Again, this makes me consider the possibility of a Mastin/Caleb scumpartnership, and that possibility is gaining strength.

And we're just supposed to take you at your word?

Well, that's quite the (great) wall-o-text.

[AceMarksman]

Well, I caught all but one of my tag SNAFU's. *sigh* oh well.

[AceMarksman]

Ah, now that was a good reply (even though you've still got a LOT to answer for) I'd like to see more posts like that from you in the future.

Don't get me wrong, you're still scummy as hell, and I'm still going after you for a lynch, but that's what you need to do to start gaining back ground you've lost.

Actual content to follow

[AceMarksman]

Hi there ppp! Welcome to the game. Do you have any thoughts on players yet? In general, a No Lynch is a bad idea, because our vote as a town is the only power we hold (sans power roles), so it would be foolish to "abstain" as you say from using it to the fullest. Yes, we have the chance to lynch a townie, but if we don't take that chance, then we will never kill scum.

Kublai: it seems you are focusing a lot on Mastin. Why does he not have your vote? Is there anything you've noticed about other players that is inhibiting you from casting one? What are your thoughts on some other players?

Honestly, I don't see what I did differently than before.

It all has to do with tone. In the past, your posts seemed arrogant and full of your self. post 156, however, seemed to take a more humble stance on the game. Now, that's not to say what you said isn't either scummy or wrong, but talking in a humble, logical tone (not "No, you're wrong, I KNOW I've caught scum, and you can all go screw yourselves") makes what you're saying much more likely to stick and to be accepted by your peers.

The scumlist v1.2
Me---[Townie]--Ting----Kublai----[neutral]-jeff---Maturin-ppp----Mastin--[Scumy]

Jeff: I would like to hear more from you. You also have not cast a vote (to the best of my knowledge). Why is this? Whom do you find to be the most scummy.

Maturin: Are you still here? We haven't heard much from you, and nothing constructive. Post more. Who is scummy? Who is town? What are your views on players.

Mod: is it too early for a prod on Maturin?

[AceMarksman]

Well, I guess 156 was a gem, cuz you go back to arrogant!Mastin ten posts later.

Not entirely. For one thing, almost every attack made can be interpreted as being wifom. Overthinking things that are simple. In your case, the simpler explanations and the more probable ones point to scum. Using wifom, I think, would--if done too much--only make you look more clear. Yea, like I'm going to do that.

I'm keeping it simple and giving every reason I can that you're scum

Wait, did you just use WIFOM... to defend yourself from using WIFOM?
1) It doesn't make you more clear, it actually makes you more scummy.
2)

And a lot of these reasons are contrived, streached, WIFOM'd, and just plain bull.

3) This paragraph contradicts it's self. You say "the simpler explanations and the more probable ones point to scum" and then later "Using WIFOM... would make you more clear" yet, by your reasoning, WIFOM is "Overthinking things that are simple". Explain this.

You do realize that the only player here who could not possibly understand wifom would be Jeff, don't you? Everyone else, to my knowledge, has at least some experience and most people here have played other games as well. The lesson, well, just seemed plain unnecessary. Try to keep that in mind, as, well, I have to read every single line of your posts to make sure I don't overlook things. Reading stuff that I know by heart is, well, a waste of my time.

Well aren't you all high and mighty. Didn't your mother ever teach you any manners? Reading an explanation that has the potential to be very helpful is a "waste of your time"? Emotional attack, the lot of it.

Not true--anyone can envision any scenario where anyone is scum. When my experience points directly to you, though, the possibility becomes, well, much stronger that you are scum. My logic, experience, and instinctive gut all augment each other.

Again, arrogance. Your logic, experience, and gut can be wrong, especially when tunneling on a person. Yes, anyone can envision a scenario where anyone is scum, which is exactly what you're doing to Kublai. What

specific examples

(yes, I want quotes and analysis) do you have against him?

But there are things that scum are more likely to do/say. Guess what? Kronos, and now you, have both done things that seem far more likely for scum to do. As in, really, really more likely to do.

As have you. What things has Kublai done that are more likely for scum to do?

You and your predecessor dropped scum tells. Enough to be incredibly scummy, more than any other player.

I

strongly

disagree.

Nothing can truly ever be applied to everywhere, but most of the time, many things can be applied. In this case, scumtells on you.

Yes, and these tells can be contrived, twisted, and streached. Scum often single out a player to attack and have lynched from the begining of day one. Day one for you, it was Data, Day two was Kronos. I haven't seen a good case from you on anyone else. What are your opinions on other players? Do you have a scumlist? I've asked you this before IIRC, and yet you've ignored it.

You've dropped several tells, and of them, there is a maximum of two or three that could possibly be considered town tells. All the rest are very easily scum tells.

What are the scum tells and what are the town tells?

Wifom is a perfectly valid form of thinking, as if you look at all the evidence and apply it to the possibilities within the wifom, it's not hard to find the truth behind that wifom. I must disagree in that it is a scum tell, in that it would be a null or town tell.

Of course it is, it's a great tool. It can not be, however, your ONLY form of thinking, and should be used sparingly. Think of WIFOM as salt. It's needed to make things taste good, but you can't eat it on it's own. You need a good, solid piece of meat to sprinkle it on. Use too little, and your argument is tasteless and unconvincing, use too much and your argument sounds contrived and twisted (and gives you high blood pressure). You need to find balance.

Actively wanting to mislynch for a joke?

Writing something off later that you did earlier as a joke, Darn right. I've seen it happen again in less than twenty-four hours, and yet again, the person who did it was, you guessed it, scum. Actually wanting to lynch for something that's called a joke in the post it is written in? There's nothing scummy in there at all, so, no.
Circumstances are key.

You want to MISlynch someone for a joke alone? MISlynch? That implies "Incorrectly lynch" meaning "lynch a townie".
1)if you were scum, you would know who the town was, so you would know if you were mislynching someone
2)if you were town, saying mislynching for a joke implies that you think the lynch is wrong, and yet you want to go through with it.

Either way, it's bad. Major scumpoints against you here.

Not when experience tells me that those who later write something off as a joke that they did earlier is a very huge scum tell. I've never, ever, in my months of experience and countless games, seen a pro-town player write something off they did earlier as a joke. Only the scum. It's a more than valid scum tell, in my eyes, and enough by itself for a lynch.

BUT. YOU. SAID.

MIS

LYNCH.

MIS

LYNCH!! That's scummy as hell!

I have a comment for this, but, again, it goes into meta, and as I cannot currently link you to any examples, I would have no proof of that statement, so it would be pointless to do so.

Wait, weren't you the one grilling Kublai for withholding information? Yet you have a comment but you're not gonna say it? That's hypocritical.

See the point I have against Ace on this matter, where I can easily link you to an example of where the person making the accusation was also saying the player was pro-town. Besides Ace in this game, I have yet to be given an example where the person making the accusation was also accusing them of being scum.

Just because you can find an example of someone being called a TV'd town, doesn't mean it's true all the time. Logical Fallacies are tools employed most often by scum, and Confirmation Bias is a Logical Fallacy.

I have been doing far from ignoring Caleb. I've attacked him as well, he had maintained my #2 spot, etc. As for defending him, I did one thing. Clarify why I found him saying he's from fb/em being a town tell. YOU DID THE EXACT SAME THING.

Um, no. You haven't made a case against Caleb at all, in fact, you gave him town points for his "Oh, this isn't my style of play" post. If kronos/Kublai were to have said this, then I would bet you would have called it a scum-tell.

That's what I thought. I remember trying out mafia on facebook and discovered it was very different. The townies just play "follow-the-cop" while the mafia try to nail down the doc, then cop. Day 1 random lynches seem pretty much par for the course. That strategy doesn't work here.

You're welcome to keep playing, but you have to realize that we may not have a cop to follow. So everything has to be reasoned out and it's best that people have to be transparent with their logic.

It's more work to play mafia on these forums, and you're welcomed to try it. Not all the games usually have so many essays up front.

Sounds like the same exact kind of thing I was saying. Yea, you calling me out for defending Caleb, when I have defended him no more than you just did, is incredibly scummy.

No it doesn't, and no it's not. This looks like Kublai is acknowledging the descrepancies, not using it as a defense. The difference being you called it a town tell.

A conclusion, yet again, which I find too disturbingly similar to that of Ace's

So people aren't allowed to draw the same conclusions? Isn't that what you're trying to do with your case on Kublai? Obviously there must be some evidence to the idea of a Caleb/Mastin partnership if two people came to the same conclusions independantly.

A conclusion, yet again, which I find too disturbingly similar to that of Ace's. And, yet again, your vote is neither on me (which would place me at L-2), nor Caleb (L-1, I believe). Why not vote your suspects?

I agree. Kublai, you need to vote.

Caleb thusfar seems like he is not scum,

The hell he doesn't

[AceMarksman]

Ok, this going back and forth isn't getting the town anywhere, so I'm going to abstain from answering every single point, so I'm going to focus on nuances in your arguments. This is an example of when an unstoppable force meets and immovable object. Firstly, though: could you put a name on your quotes? It makes it a lot easier to follow. The tags for this are:

Code: Select all

[quote="Player name"]What the player said[/quote]

becomes:

What the player said

- - -

Do you find this clarification satisfactory?

Yes, but I disagree on your theory.

I do have opinions on the other players. If you really, really want me to give the list, then, sure, I'll put my thoughts into words (but I probably wouldn't quote specific examples), but I'm personally waiting for Khan's first.

If you want to save your own ass, then I suggest that you do.

Do you want me to browse through a few pages and put together the list?

yes please, with a nice side of analysis to go with it.

Honestly, I didn't realize the 'mis' was in the quote. I suppose the correct term would be 'lynch'. I really need to check my words more often, don't I? That has to be the thirtieth time I've done something like that. :/

How do you not realize it when it's something you said and has been gone over multiple times? I'm not buying it, and I'm surely not going to let you off that easy for it.

You know, when you bring the same point up twice in the same post, it gets a little tiresome to answer it twice. I did not mean a ml, not in the sense of Khan being town who deserves to be lynched.

Same for you bringing up the same defense three times.

I said it was a comment on meta, and you and Ting, amongst others, told me not to make comments like that, as they would be pointless and just be my word. Want me to give it, anyway?

yes

Acknowledging the discrepancies sounds a good deal like acknowledging it as being a town tell to me.

It's not. It's one thing to acknowledge discrepancies, it's another to say that they are town tells. Just because someone is used to a different style of play does not mean that they aren't scum. It goes back to what Kublai said (OMGZZZ! HE'S USING SOMETHING KUBLAI SAID! HE MUST BE SCUM); tells are based off intent. Having a different playstyle than another person is no more likely for scum than town, making it a null tell.

It isn't necessarily bad. It's just worthy of suspicion.

No. This is slight OMGUS.

I did not understand this. Could you explain?

Sure. You're trying to get us to draw the same conclusions about Kublai that you are; he is scum. Is it only scummy when someone draws a conclusion that is against you or contrary to one of your opinions?

- - -

Is anyone intersted in owning up that they are mafia

If only it were that simple.

[AceMarksman]

I'm pursuing the target who I think is scum. Several times, I've said that I'm willing to lynch Khan.

Not mislynch.

And how if Khan weren't scum, how I'd personally answer for it. This I can give dozens upon dozens of examples for, where there are one or two where others see 'mislynch'.

No. You

specifically said

mislynch. Here's where it happened-

I linked it as an example of why posts later written of as a joke are often scummy in nature. In this case, kronos said the 'random vote' and the reasoning behind it was just a joke. If kronos had just written it off as a mistake, I might have accepted it as a newbie mistake. But...as a joke? That's a blatant attempt at covering one's tracks. If someone makes a joke like that,

I'd be willing to use a mislynch on them for the joke alone.

The link is part of the case on kronos. He's dropped more than enough scumtells, and has contributed just enough to escape prods. He's trying to lay low, avoid suspicion, and let people such as yourself do the work for him by blowing my case full of holes when it is legit. That's a major scumtell. Let him defend himself, if he can. He can't, because he most likely doesn't want to bother with the effort when he knows that I've nailed him for what he really is--scum.

- stop trying to get out of what you said.

See above. I prefer answering what doesn't require browsing first, and when I'm caught up, I shall do so.

Thank you very much.

As for the 7for7 thing:
1) I know what a 7for7 fallacy is, but when you called it a 7-4-7, I had no Idea what you were talking about.
2)This isn't a good example of it. The fallacy has more to do with identifying players as scum or town.

[AceMarksman]

In general: short and concise beats out long and drawn out. Stick to the most pressing points in lieu of tiny details. That will cut back on the length and make your points easier to digest.

[AceMarksman]

I am inclined not to believe you, Mastin, and not for the reason you might think. I actually came to the conclusion that you might be cop earlier, until I went back and read your posts again, and noticed this:

Not the answer I was expecting; you actually admitted that one of the points on your predecessor was at least semi-valid.

Now, there are town points for you, right there.

Not nearly enough to convince me that you're not scum, though. It could even be an attempt at buddying, though I doubt this is the case.

and

This I have pointed out before, and am glad to see you agreeing with me. You could've easily responded differently, saying the 'personal attacks' were another sign of my scumminess,

so you actually get town points for this comment.

Now, here's the question: Why would a cop with a guilty result say these things? Mastin's claim has an air of desperation about it, and would be a play scum would make. He has been breadcrumbing cop for a while (see I'm sure kronos is scum etc). Now, is this unintentional cop play, or smart scum play? That is the question.

I implore the town, DO NOT HAMMER YET. I still endorse a Mastin lynch, but there will be more we can glean from him to ascertain the truth of his role claim, and we need to do that.

Also: if Mastin is lying and someone else is the legitamate cop, then please, PLEASE come forward.

[AceMarksman]

Ok, a few things. First, Maturin's FOS of me: If someone is a cop in a game where there can only be one cop, yet another person claims cop, then the person who claimed is almost 100% sure to be scum. If the real cop doesn't come forward, then the scumcop is given a free ride.

This-

Keep in mind, there is a 50% chance there is no cop in this game. Don't let the lack of counter-claim convince you to not vote for the obv scum.

sounds desperate. It doesn't sound like something a townie with a false guilty would say.

From the bystander's perspective, you see either me being scum faking cop with a guilty on Khan, or me as the real cop, with a real guilty on Khan, who has no claim. Strictly speaking, unless Khan were to CC cop, the choice of the lynch, I would think, would be Khan. If I were to be lying and Khan pro-town, it'd be probable that he'd be just a villager, and I'd die as scum. Which would be a good trade for the town. If I were telling the truth and was lynched, it'd confirm Khan as scum, but at the price of your cop. So, unless Khan claims to be a power role, from a spectator's standpoint, it's believe the claimed blue, or claimed cop.

ok, I agree with the first part here, if Kublai is lynched and flips town, then you're then next lynch. Either way, we find scum. However, him being scum does not automatically make you town. This could be an elaborate bus.

I had something else to say, but i forgot *whups*

anyway, I think Kublai should be our lynch, as it would give us the most information. I still think that Mastin is scummy as hell. I would advocate Mastin's lynch for today, but i'm not willing to risk the loss of our cop.

unvote

I want to hear Kublai's claim before I put him at L-1 just in case Mastin is fakeclaiming cop.

[AceMarksman]

I did not say mislynch at all. THAT is twisting my words.

You did say mislynch back in post 130

[AceMarksman]

Kublai, is your claim vanilla, then?

[AceMarksman]

Also, jeff, that's exactly how I see it. If Kublai claims 'nilla, then he should be lynched on policy. If he flips scum, then yey, we can start working on his scumpartner. If he flips town, then we know with almost 100% certainty that Mastin is scum.

Now, this isn't to say that Mastin is clean of suspicion if Kublai flips scum. He was pushing kronos hard D1, before he could have time to do an investigation. Scum can bus their partners, and I see evidence towards this.

[AceMarksman]

Ting, with one of your main suspects claiming cop, you had better get your arse back here.

I see desperation in post 202, and Mastin's recent post looks *ok* (even though you STILL are using WIFOM way too much! Gah!)

In light of recent actions:

Vote: Kublai

I suggest that no one hammers until Ting, Maturin, and Kublai have a chance to post some more, ESPECIALLY TING *glareglarewhereareyouglare*

[AceMarksman]

Your choices are:
a) Vanilla town
b) Pro-town Cop
c) Pro-town Doctor
d) Mafia Goon
e) Mafia Roleblocker.

Please choose one (1) of the above that best describes your role.

[AceMarksman]

omg poast someone, please! I'm pulling my hair out because of this game!

[AceMarksman]

-'nilla claim: It's a general rule, I've found, that a person sitting at L-1 who claims townie is the day's lynch if no more discussion can be had. Because of Mastin's claim, there isn't really anything else we can do.

-bussing: Mastin called the short night a "Newb scum move." I think that kronos sent in the kill without consulting Mastin, and therefore Mastin attacked him for it (even though Caleb was also a true newbie) to apear pro-town and to have an effective claim.

[AceMarksman]

Well hi there Xtoxm, I've been

stalking

looking forward to playing a game with you.

The basic summary of the game so far:
-Data plays an absolutly HORRIBLE game D1 and gets lynched on page four by Caleb who hadn't posted anything since the begnining of the game
-Empking is NK'd night one
-Mastin starts attacking kronos for the short night, and stays tunneled on him for several pages
-Caleb lurks, as does kronos. They are replaced by ppp and Kublai respectively
-Kublai and I start attacking Mastin for his weak cases (Ting and I were doing the same D1)
-At L-1, Mastin claims cop causing all hell to break lose.
-Multiple people unvote Mastin and vote Kublai (myself included)
-Kublai is at L-1 and is sounding a little desperate (which is a null tell, as either side would sound desperate at L-1 *shrug*)

That's how I see it, anyway.

[AceMarksman]

What about jeff's post made you read him as scummy, Xtoxm?

[AceMarksman]

Don't forget, Xtoxm, that we're less than 48 hours from deadline. Please don't let us no-lynch today.

Has ppp been prodded recently?

[AceMarksman]

It is JUST UNDER 24 hours until deadline. PLEASE DON'T LET THIS DAY END WITH A NO-LYNCH. That would be the worst possible scenario for today, because we are guaranteed a lynch of scum either today or tomorrow.

[AceMarksman]

Mastin, Cop - Killed Night Two

Is anyone surprised?

Not really.

Ok, here's our situation:
a. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Cop, 1 Doctor, and 5 vanilla townies

b. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, and 7 vanilla townies

c. 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Cop, and 6 vanilla townies

d. 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Doctor, and 6 vanilla townies

[WIFOM]I assume that we don't have setup A or our doc would have protected Mastin in the night[/WIFOM]

The good news is that we're not in LyLo. Now, that is not to say that we should throw away our vote and lynch with abandon day three. I would rather lynch the remaining scum today and NOT have to face LyLo. I'm going to have to read back a little bit to see if I can get some reads. Unfortunately, Kronos didn't do much before he was replaced, and KK just latched on to Mastin's (well deserved, at that time) wagon. I think we should consider the possibility of a bus after Mastin claimed cop. Allow me to go back and read that section of the thread.

[AceMarksman]

Going back, I see that Maturin24 was the first person to vote KK after mastin's cop claim, followed by myself (after about a page and a half of debate) and then Xtoxm.

Maturin, why did you vote KK so quickly? Do you still find the person you unvoted, ppp, to be scummy? Explain.

Xtoxm, what are your views of the other players? What about people both on and off the KK wagon? The Mastin wagon?

Now for people off the KK wagon.

Jeff, to my knowledge, you didn't vote anyone on Day 2. Why is this? I didn't see much content from you. Might I request a scumlist after your internet problems are fixed?

ppp, where are you? I want to hear something from you. What are your views of other players?

[AceMarksman]

For those who wish to know, I'll be V/LA from Sunday until Late Tuesday/Early Wednesday

[AceMarksman]

Go Scum!

See y'all in the post-game.

Screw the scum

Anywho

I don't think that people on the Mastin wagon should be attacked as scum unless they have shown other scummy traits. By his own admition, Mastin played an absolutly HORRID game D1 and D2. Then again this is all WIFOM.

[AceMarksman]

Ok, I almost flipped out at your vote on ppp, but then I realized that this game is the one that I'm in that's not in LyLo. Whups.

yeah, I forgot about his random vote thing, although I don't see it as THAT big of a deal (it's no trivial matter, however) because he was randomly voting for either KK or Mastin. Still, an educated vote is better than a random one.

[AceMarksman]

The setup has to be C for reasons I explained yesterday, in your scenario the doc would have been RB'ed in A.

What were those reasons again? Also, the chance of the roleblocker hitting the correct target is 1:4, so there was a 75% chance that the doc would have gotten off free.

What statements besides that did you find poor?

[AceMarksman]

Why do you think that we got all townies on the KK wagon? With a claimed guilty result against KK, I figure his partner would jump on his wagon.

ppp: Post Moar.

[AceMarksman]

Hm. I haven't been getting that much of a scumread from jeff. My scumlist is as follows:

[obvtown]Ace----------[town]--------Xtoxm-----jeff--[]----ppp----Mat-------[scum]

[AceMarksman]

I've been getting an active lurker feel from Maturin. He only posts when prompted, and he quickly jumped on KK after his top suspect claimed cop. I'm still wary of a bus.

[AceMarksman]

[b[Mod[/b]:ppp hasn't posted in two pages, can he be replaced, please?

[AceMarksman]

Maturin, you do realize that you just put jeff at L-1, right? I think that the post you cited as "Scummy" actually made jeff look more town. He appeared to be looking into both sides of the KK lynch issue and wanted to avoid making a stupid mistake. This post also was made long before deadline IIRC, so him waiting didn't put us under the threat of no-lynch.

As for the fear of being lynched, you do realize that his fears were well founded, right? If KK had turned up town, I'm pretty sure that he would be lynched after Mastin. In a lylo situation, that would have caused the town to lose (if he is a townie).

Vote: Maturin

[AceMarksman]

The thing about that is, jeff would have caught some flak if KK had been town and if he had hammered. Now, mastin would have been the D3 lynch, but then we still would have been in LyLo, and jeff would still be suspicious. If he's town, then that's a VERY bad place to be in LyLo. Scum would attack him for lynching a claimed doctor (which KK did) and placing the game in LyLo etc.

[AceMarksman]

And, why are you concerned about an L-1 vote?

Didn't see this when I responed earier.

While we aren't in LyLo, we shouldn't throw away a lynch either. This day has barely lasted a page, and I don't want a quicklynch that would throw away today's discussion.

[AceMarksman]

Yes, everyone on KK's wagon had he been the doc would have caught some ammount of flak. Jeff, being the hammerer, would have caught the most due to his indecisiveness before his vote. And no, you should not have let the day NL. It's one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't scenarios if KK would have been the Doc. Needless to say, KK wasn't the doc, so this train of thought is starting to become pointless.

Tbh, i'd be quite happy if you hammered Jeff right now. A large quantity of discussion is not always required, and I feel ready to lynch today.

1)I don't find jeff to be all that scummy, and I am thoroughly against casting a hammer in a lynch that you don't agree with.
2)Before he is hammered, he should AT LEAST be allowed to claim.
3)While I agree that a large quantity of discussion isn't always required, it would be very helpful here. If we mislynch today, then we go into LyLo, and I find that discussion in LyLo is a lot more reserved than discussion outside of LyLo. Two pages of discussion today isn't enough.

[AceMarksman]

Claim? Claim what? Cop? Doc? Mafia? All those are equally stupid. He's either a townie, or scum.

KK did claim doc.

What do you feel still needs to be discussed?

[qutote="Ace"]so this train of thought is starting to become pointless. [/quote]
I don't.

[AceMarksman]

EBWOP

Claim? Claim what? Cop? Doc? Mafia? All those are equally stupid. He's either a townie, or scum.

KK did claim doc.

What do you feel still needs to be discussed?

so this train of thought is starting to become pointless.

I don't

[AceMarksman]

And the point you're trying to make with this is...?

[AceMarksman]

Why should he not be allowed to claim? Isn't that running the risk of us hammering a power role?

[AceMarksman]

I'm not saying we shouldn't let him talk, my all means, let him confirm his claim is VT...I'm just saying it's not necessary.

So are you saying that there is no chance of him being the doctor?

[AceMarksman]

Ok, there is no way you would know that he isn't the doctor unless you were a mafia goon. Therefore-

Unvote, Vote Xtoxm.

I will remove this vote if you give a thorough, acceptable explanation of how you know jeff isn't the doctor.

[AceMarksman]

The fact that no-one countered KK for doc claim means we have a 2 goon setup. If there was a doc, the only person it could be would be Mat, because Jeff and ppp didn't vote KK when he claimed, and Ace and I have made it obvious we're townies. But it really doesn't matter.

This isn't necisarily true. A doc would still hide himself to prevent the mafia from scoring a direct hit on him.

[AceMarksman]

do you have sufficient meta to support this (i.e not just one case)? I will rescend my vote if you do.

[AceMarksman]

EBWOP: replace rescend with re-think.

Also this sentance doesn't sit all that well with me

Ace, stop being so anti-town please.

I don't know why, but it doesn't.

[AceMarksman]

While this may be true, there is only one viable option for you to know that there is no doctor, and that is if you are the mafia goon.

Maturin, what do you think of this development?

[AceMarksman]

In three words, you made yourself look that much scummier o.O

[AceMarksman]

Oh? What failures of logical thought have I shown? You said that you know there is "No way for us to have a doctor" when this is not the case unless you are a mafia goon. Insults to my thought process will get you nowhere.

[AceMarksman]

ppp, what are your thoughts?

[AceMarksman]

to reiterate, I'm going to be

V/LA from tomorrow until Wednesday

and this is probably my last post until then.

[AceMarksman]

I found the netz at a rest stop, so this is a rare post from me while I'm V/LA

Which is why I said the only person who could be a doc was you

No, you said that there was no way for there to be a doc at all. I can quote the post you said this in.

[AceMarksman]

[qutoe="Xtoxm"]the only person it could be would be Mat[/quote]
woah, didn't see that. This post would be longer, but I've got to get on the road.

[AceMarksman]

Hm. It seems that the sheraton that I'm staying at has wireless internet. Go figure.

Anywho. ppp. I want to hear your views on other players.

[AceMarksman]

Ace, please hammer Jeff.

Wait a minute. I refuse to hammer jeff at the moment for the following reasons.
1) I don't believe in his lynch, and I'll be damned if I cast his hammer.
2)I see you as the scummiest person here atm, and I do not wish to follow you blindly.
3) A mislynch today will take us into LyLo, and a lynch this early in the day will stagnent discussion.

Xtoxm, I want you to present a solid case in one post against jeff. If it's substantial, I will consider hammering after some discussion.

[AceMarksman]

I have a rebuttal to your attack, Maturin, but if jeff IS scum, it will let him off easy. I'm not going to speak for him.

[AceMarksman]

and there's the rebuttal that I was thinking of. Right now, I have a neutral read on jeff. I don't know why, I just don't see him as scum.

[AceMarksman]

You seriously buy that shit?

Calling an individual's argument "Shit" and then insulting someone who sees their side of an issue is not a way to win their vote over.

That is not a pro-town thought process.

Oh, and why is this? I think it's pretty pro town to not follow someone blindly into a LyLo situation.

And Ace, do really think i'm scum? Because you seemed pretty happy with me being town, until I said why there isn't a doc. You are basing your entire thoughts on the game around your misconception of logic.

You are the person who is looking scummiest to me at the moment. I had a town read on you day two just because you were agreeing with a lot of my points against mastin. I realized during the night last (game) night that I hadn't looked at you in the same light that I had other players, therefore I went back and read through your posts. I came to the conclusion that your activity had been mostly a null-tell, yet you seemed to be taking a back seat in the KK lynch (taking a long time to vote him even though you agreed that he could be scum etc). Still then, I didn't have a great case on you until you started claiming that you knew that jeff wasn't the doc. The only way you would know this would be a) for you to be the doc or b)for you to be a goon. I find a to be unlikely because of your case claiming that the doc would have CC'd Kublai D2, as it would make no sense for a doc to make this case. Therefore, the remaining option points to you being the mafia goon. Also, your play during the last couple of (real life) days has turned rather acusatory and harsh to those with opinions contrary to yours (see "do you seriously buy that shit") Where is the failed logic in this? Am I seeing something the wrong way?

[AceMarksman]

OK, this game is going nowhere. I want to hear more from the following:
ppp
jeff
mat

[AceMarksman]

oh god ew. Do not want kthxbai

[AceMarksman]

so you're the roleblocker o.O?

[AceMarksman]

*sigh* this isn't going anywhere, I can see that now. This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets and immovable object, neither force wants to budge, but one has to break. I don't want to do this, but this game needs to move along. No hard feelings, jeff.

Unvote.
Vote: Jeffcole1

Now, I really, really, REALLY, hope jeff is scum.

[AceMarksman]

YOU'RE SCUM?? HELLS TO FUCKING YES!!!

[AceMarksman]

HELL YES!!! OUT-FUCKING-STANDING!

Great job town for winning without going into LyLo!

[AceMarksman]

Lol, I WIFOM'd myself to death during this game. Had I just thought of the simplest options, this game would have ended four pages ago.

I tend to make really wild accusations in my games (I blame giuseppe (another player)) and I'm slightly paranoid. Oh well.

[AceMarksman]

My advice for jeff on his D3 play: you really REALLY should have pushed the ppp wagon much harder than you did. You were scum at L1, and ppp was an easy target. That, or you should have hammered Xtoxm, in which case I would have thought Mat would have been scum.

[AceMarksman]

yeah, If it had been me, jeff, and mat in LyLo, then this game would have been a scum win.

[AceMarksman]

May I /pre-in for your mini normal setup? I'd love to be in it.

As for your question, I had a slight scum read on Mat the entire game. I didn't like his soft lurking.

[AceMarksman]

iaun, do you have any notes on the game?

[AceMarksman]

Can has mod notes kthxbai.

[AceMarksman]

Let's all send him a PM to bug him until he does.

[AceMarksman]

Yeah, my scumdar was fail in this game. I was just focused too much on Mastin's forced case to notice what KK was doing really.

I don't like making the decisions for the town (i.e hamering jeff) which was why I was reluctant to do so, and I didn't see him as all that scummy.