Newbie 955 - Game over

[kingcod]

g'day all

vote AdumbroDeus

for slight sniffiness towards our esteemed mod.

[kingcod]

My I 've learnt all sorts already in this game - Hydras and Alts, cats are demons ...

Yes page one was fun.

Just so we don't take it too seriously, and to help focus on a smaller number of Test Cases for a lynching:

unvote AdumoroDeus

Hi Ray

[kingcod]

Dismissing page 1 as pointless spam (or fun) is something villains like to do

I suppose so. But to use page one votes as a runnaway bandwagon can get someone to L-1 pretty quick.

How does your unvote (and thus your return to a completely blank state) help focus on a smaller number of Test Cases for a lynching? Or is this a fancy way of saying that you are going to wait and see which bandwagon gets rolling?

It is.

Not Liking Sandman's recent posts. Do we get to hear the gist of that PM to Valkyrie to be sure its not" 'kill them - kill them all!' *evil cackle* "

vote Mr Sandman

Questions to all

(1) is respect for the mod the Mark of the ScumBeast or Town being nice?
(2) who has performed the best scumhunt so far, in your view?

[kingcod]

Both your questions sound like more fishing to me. .

Thus is the inevitable fate of every question posed to the whole of town. No one has to answer, and they are just there as a prompt to stimulate useful discussion. If you don't find them useful just don't answer. They are random questions.

Considering we´re out of the joking stage

We are? Are you keen to lynch someone or something?

Only reason for your question Nr. 2 that I can think of, is that you are trying to figure out who has the most credit amongst the village and join that persons cause - sums up to me as fishing, bandwagoning and another instance of potential buddying up.

No. See above. There are plenty of other reasons why someone might remark on the capabilities of their fellow townies.

As it happens I agree with Sandman that Hoopla has been hunting pretty well (e.g. post 35) but as you can see by voting patterns I'm not buddying up. Also Adaham has been hunting pretty wide and comprehensively. Its therefore a pity Adaham got it wrong voting on me!

Just a quick comment on SailorPallas - this doesn't look like scum playing and Sandman's tunnelling of SailorPallas is in itself more scummy. SP - if I said you looked like you had made a newbie slip or two I hope you won't be offended.

[kingcod]

@LobsterCatapult - I take you point that SP could be scum ... but not for the reasons identified by those voting on him right now. I would need something else to put a vote on SP.

@SailorPallas - can we hear back from you ?

@AdumbroDeus - sorry I don't understand this - can you rephrase?

"Regardless, even if Sailor is just a weak player at the end of the day, weak players are bad for town, especially in lylo, so scum is obviously top priority, but weak players are there too, failing a good choice for clearly scum. Of course inactives have priority over simply weak players cause the town cannot win with them."

Are you suggesting lynching weak townies as a strategy to thin out the choices?

[kingcod]

@sandman - tunnelling - kind of digging away at SailorPallas without it being constructive examination. Looking back on the actual posts you made I am now not so sure it qualifies as a strong example as such.

[kingcod]

Ouch, are you scum or just a rude douchebag?

Well he is both, of course - , but I do agree with ray's sentiment. You are posting more about

not

posting than you have in giving your thoughts and ideas about the game.

Whilst I agree with you that newbies might be weak and therefore at heightened risk of being wrongly lynched I don't really agree that newbies tend to be less active.

We need your valued input whether its comprehensively researched or not.

On the whole 'lets winnow the chaff from the corn' debate its becoming a bit of a null point - surely we only vote for someone who we believe is genuinely scum ... therefore to rank order scum, inactives and weak players (post 103) is simply not relevant.

However, AdumbroDeus is right to raise the debate. Unlike Adaham:

If I was kingcod and innocent, I´d be a bit more harsh in my critique of this basically outrageous statement of AD. Wink to the packy to pace it down?

Methinks this might be stirring discontent

FoS Adaham

[kingcod]

I've had another look through the sequence of events around AdumbroDeus and Adaham, and considered what Adaham said in response to my FoS.

FoS always has the potential to look like OMGUS but I don't think anything in why I said I was pointing the finger confirms that. In retrospect I now think Adaham was simply trying to encourage further votes on AdumbroDeus, who he had voted on in post 92.

@Adaham: Am I right Adaham?

It was unfortunate you prefaced this with "If I was kingcod and innocent", which carries with it an implication that I am borderline scummy for not going in hard on AdumbroDeus

@Sandman - are you not voting because you are scum? Who should be topping the vote list if not you?

[kingcod]

Suspects: sandman, hoopla, valkyrie

Lynch candidates - more inter-play needed, particularly with the 2 semi-dormant players

I get a scum read on Kingcod becuase he was third on the MrSandman wagon with the absolute worst reason, not sharing Valk's PM to me.

That wasn't my reason, sorry if it wasn't clear to you -
I said "Not Liking Sandman's recent posts" - which was to concur with Hoopla's initial reason.

Did you in fact say you wouldn't share the PM?

@Sandman - are you not voting because you are scum?

Not at all, I've just been cautious with my vote. Waiting until I have a conclusive target.

But you could have voted on me last Thursday then couldn't you? That was when I posted the content you are now using for a 'conclusive target'? You seem to have waited until you were prompted to vote by Hoopla, rather than appear suspicious.

In conclusion, I will Vote Kingcod becuase of above

and the dude deserves at least one vote.

I don't know what to make of this. Scum might join a bandwagon, but scum might also want to spread the votes as wide as possible to create confusion. Any ideas?

[kingcod]

Some more firey posting since I last looked, which is helpful.

@Sandman: I don't think I am being any more or less defensive than anyone else. Anyhow, the first section of your reply post 134 was useful, even if middle bit was rather OMGUS and the latter end got a bit irate! I'm satisfied you've traced back the initial evidence for the vote on you to something which now looks weak.

For this reason

unvote sandman

I don't think a day one lynch for sandman is useful when there may be some more appropriate targets. Sorry guys.

Welcome Redtail896. A helpful first post. I was going to ask AdumbroDeus the same question you did - "Show me where I buddied up to him?"

@AdumbroDeus - you seem hyper sensitive when your name is mentioned as making a positive contribution, and also suggest that me trying to clarify a point you made is buddying. How does that work?I disagreed with you about picking off weak players and still do. We should lynch scum, not slow players. Are we clear?

Since I'm probably not gonna live out the day at this rate, my first concern is that town DOES NOT TRUST HIM when I flip.

The melodrama in this is suspicious - there is only one vote on AdumbroDeus so he is no worse position than most others.

And just to be a little pendantic you did say you wouldn't respond to comments on your scumtell on me until I had posted ... but then you responded to Redtail896's question. I'll take that as general impatience with the pace of the game!

I must say that re-reading page 6 I am currently finding it hard to pick a strong lynch candidate.

That said - on with the scum hunt: Hoopla's play has indeed been quite structured and unusual. part helpdesk, part bandwagon leader. It might be a case of actin too perfect (yeah I know this might sound warped) - the meta-analysis of every game since Noah was particularly inspired - but could it be an 'authoratative' camouflage?

@Hoopla - how answer you?

[kingcod]

Now then, to respond to your actual statements, then why did you immediately FoS the guy who went after me for doing WHAT YOU OBVIOUSLY DISAGREE WITH.

Now, please explain why you chose to do that.

My FOS was because I saw it as an attempt by Adaham to stir discontent amongst town - in other words he was attempting to escalate my criticism of your voting style into a scum vote on you.

You seem to be confusing me disagreeing with your approach to weeding out weak players (and other players think the same) with me hunting scum. I said you were 'right to raise the debate', but I disagreed with your voting method on principle. Clearer?

And does that also help you Redtail896? Could you explain why you think Hoopla's vote on Sandman is scummy, but my unvote of Sandman is also scummy? It was hardly as if I made a a rapid switch - it has taken me seven days of seeing the game develop to unvote him!

I must say being responsive to the developments in this game seems to be taken as a sign of weakness by a few of us. I've been trying damned hard to take account of the views of the rest of town, noting where I agree and where I disagree- but not using it as some kind of bandwagon opportunity. I give a reason for each and every one of my votes, but unlike some have the good grace to identify if and when I have been mistaken.

I am not keen on either of the wagons running at the moment -Sandman made mistakes earlier on and is still being punished, and AdumbroDeus got voted for some similar early game gung-ho and some flailing about with some 'bizarre' points.

This leads me to think that one or possibly two of those voting on these two could be scum. I'll need to do some re-reading to decide who it might be.

[kingcod]

Similarly, your unvote of MrSandman isn't suspicious by itself, but rather the circumstances surrounding it.

Nope, not suspicious. I can't be more explicit than this in my reason to unvote can I:

@Sandman: Anyhow, the first section of your reply post 134 was useful, even if middle bit was rather OMGUS and the latter end got a bit irate! I'm satisfied you've traced back the initial evidence for the vote on you to something which now looks weak.

Anyway, I'm done with purists who think that its only valid to vote on someone with unique reasoning. This stifles the game and makes it grind to a halt. If I see something in what another player has said that I agree with then yes, it will influence my vote. I would love to see a player manage to track down and lynch mafia completely without taking account of reasoning that was not their own.

@ Hoopla -can you come back on my observation here:

Hoopla's play has indeed been quite structured and unusual. part helpdesk, part bandwagon leader. It might be a case of actin too perfect (yeah I know this might sound warped) - the meta-analysis of every game since Noah was particularly inspired - but could it be an 'authoratative' camouflage?

[kingcod]

but i agree with redtail, that kingcod i dont think you did a very good job articulating what reasoning you were borrowing from.

Okay, so this is something I can respond to:

Vote on Sandman: Hoopla post 36 and 39 I liked. RayFrost's vote post 58 picked up the now notorious PM issue.

UnVote on Sandman: Redtails post 131, Sandman's post 134.

Oh and I think I am L-2, is that right? Its still 5 to lynch?

I suppose the reason I have toned my play down is due to being a bit busier in my life, and because I know I get pushy when I don't get what I want.

I won't comment on the first bit, but the second point is giving me the jitters. Or is it just me?

I agree with redtail that posting is beginning to lag. AdumbroDeus? Adaham? You there mateys?

[kingcod]

Just checking in really. The ISO will be helpful from Me=Weird. I'm kind of grinding to a halt on making a choice on a vote. I would prefer not to churn over old material but in answer to AdumbroDeus I am thinking about Hoopla, Adaham, RayFrost and Me=Weird as possible lynch candidates. I'm not getting very strong vibes from any of them though!

[kingcod]

@Me=Weird -Allow me to resume "Pure as the driven snow"

Bad luck tho, I have made similar mistakes.

[kingcod]

@kingcod: Do you plan to vote soon? We're 5.5 days away from deadline; who should we lynch?

I think we should put some pressure on Hoopla.

This has been a difficult choice to make. As I suggested earlier this is a tough crowd to read (so well done everyone) and the main lynch contenders are not stacking up for me right now. As Adaham says 'we have little to go on on day 1".

Just before I talk about Hoopla I'll address Adaham's analysis - (yup sorry I will have to post a defence again since without it I look like a likely day one lynch, which would be a shame because I've still got lots of scumhunting to do!). My balanced approach has been an attempt to make sure we do a thorough scum hunt, respond to what the accused have to say, and keep our options open.

So now I will make a case for a day one lynch.

There are alternative play styles to the balanced style. Of course. One of these is to vote page 1, chip in with pearls of wisdom about how to play the game, the odd joke, what look like rallying calls for votes and thats about it. I'm talking about you Hoopla, and to a lesser extent RayFrost. For Ray this is a style I've seen before in another game (he was town and got lynched). Ray has also had more voting activity but is still suspicous. For Hoopla I don't see this pattern.

All Day 1 really is, is providing enough information to help us hit scum tomorrow

Hoopla plays down the significance of day one - lynch a townie? no biggie - plenty more where they came from.

This is a nice scum tactic - carry on with the 'less is more' approach and before we know it town is outnumbered or at best a 50/50 chance of losing by a misplaced vote. Remember - scum knows who we are. We don't know who are scum.

It isn't scummy to want a quicker, sharper game

.. or it is. Newbie games are paced slower to allow town to have a better chance to get it right.

Conciseness is a pro-town quality

Just as easily it can be a scum tactic. If Hoopla really was so knowledgeable about the game she should remind us that brevity is also a way for scum to hide.

I've done a lot of data-mining in the Mini Normal forum. I've catalogued 300+ games

"Trust me I'm an expert" This adds to the veneer of respectablility built up from earlier posts.

Hoopla is a good candidate for a day one lynch because:

1. She spends a lot of time grooming an image of trusted town
2. She has kept a vote on Sandman made on page one that most players have agreed is bunkum.
3. She wants to limit scum hunting through proper discourse in a newbie game with the fallacious opinion that less is more.

vote Hoopla

[kingcod]

hum. I'm not getting a good feeling now Exemption

(hey and welcome Exemption!)

AdumbroDeus always had a tinge of scum and Exemption's first post hasn't helped that, for the following reasons:

1. "a Hoopla lynch would give us loads of information to work with. However a dead town Hoopla would be a bad thing." How so? Do we hang on Hoopla's word? I don't doubt her skill, but I do doubt her town credentials. Are you giving her cover to go to work as scum?

2."oh n I would probably have voted for AD if he was still here. I'll try to make up for his behaviour" Why say this? Kind of a double bluff perhaps?

3. .... and lynch Kingcod because he doesn't help town much. Because I'm not voting with the herd? Because my opinions don't match yours? Because they are strange? ..... but not because I am scum?

@Hoopla - any chance of a response to any or my points for voting on you? Or is it not worth the effort as I am a lone voice?

Anyhow, lynch me if you think it will progress town's case, but please think carefully next time. There are very few tells this early in a game, but at this point I predict that you will find scum lurking amongst those voting on me or perhaps on Sandman. Also please note you are unlikely to find all scum voting in the same place.

Ffor reference feel free to check my play in other games - this isn't the first time I will have taken a bullet to help town win.

[kingcod]

*jumps about a bit to prove evidence of activity*

[kingcod]

Come on people. Wake up. Hoopla has just voted with no evidence or justification, has failed to respond to at least two requests for clarification as to her motives, and is cloaked in some kind of lame excuse (not put forward by Hoopla I would stress) about being busy in another game. Think about it: if a player is inactive why should they be voting?

@Equinox. Welcome!
It beggars believe that my play is

riding on whats popular

. I backed off a popular wagon because I wasn't convinced (Sandman), I've lead a vote on Hoopla, and I have been extremely careful where I point my accusations. Bad call.

[kingcod]

Equinox - You will appreciate being at L1 I really need to resume for you why I am not a good lynch, hence the three points.

I picked up Hoopla's post after I had posted before - whilst I agree with Hoopla on the need to make progress, the appeal to emotion of a lynch for a lynch's sake doesn't sit well.

[kingcod]

OK I can see why Exemption has voted for me - I'm a wagon, and he stated he would do this if no one else joined the Hoopla vote. No one has, but then we have AWOL players. Thats a shame.

I'm going to role-claim as this is pretty much my last chance before the first town lynch of the game.

I'm vanilla town.

(and an obvious point -

no one else roleclaim

)

What puzzles me is why getting a lynch day one is so much of an absolute necessity to some people. A number of people have voiced their doubts but are still voting me because of this fear of a no lynch.

Lynching me will likely reduce town by two players tonight since mafia will find another victim alongside me. No lynch will only give scum one victim and will give town time to start to piece together what scum are doing.

There has been some interpretation about whether I go with the flow or go my own way - and you know what? neither is really a scum tell. I really fail to see how I have ended at L-1 because of this.

One last observation - the frustratingly high drop out rate from this game is not leading towards sound decisions. I have no doubt that the new players are contributing as best they can, but if they were scum it is now doubly hard to assess them. Which leaves the old guard who have been in since day one:
Adaham , LobsterCatapult, kingcod , RayFrost , Hoopla

Who of these has been most active recently and who has ended up being L1? That woud be me. I think I had better just shut up as its just leading to a bad day one lynch.

[kingcod]

oh my. its been a busy day here (finally!)

I will re-read this stuff and post. Bear with me.

[kingcod]

Exemption's role claim is pretty damned weird and I would like a further discussion about it, with a chance for Exemption to explain its purpose, particularly when I urged town not to claim. I doubt we have time right now but for the record - Its looking to be either a scummy act or a newbie miscalculation since as far as I can see it will serve no purpose to town - Exemption would at least have had to wait till night to do some sleuthing work and this way he is likely never to sleuth because either mafia will take him out as a power role or town will lynch her.

@Exemption - why did you roleclaim? Was it a misjudgement?

This issue will probably have to wait as I see we are running out of time today.

My vote rests where it is on Hoopla.

Just to pick up on a couple of the comments about my roleclaim (Redtail896 and LobsterCatapult)- I can't really do more than claim what I am! What would you expect a vanilla townie to claim? If I falsely claimed a powerrole the true holder of that role would be a little miffed I think, and it would also damage town as it would likely draw out that role as a claim.

So please

no more roleclaims

until later in the game as they are going to weaken town in my view.

[kingcod]

@Cirno - Welcome. A case against me would be helpful

@Exemption - don't forget we'd like an explanation from you as to your roleclaim. As a reminder - is it a Newbie slip ? Oh, and in my view you shouldn't reveal explicilty what you found last night - it could be useful to scum - I am suprised at Redtail896 asking you to blurt it out.

@Adaham - my claim means no more nor less than anyone elses. Please don't devalue it.

I don't go with the FoS on Lobster - regret at losing the doc a scumtell. seriously?

I see we are beginning to talk a bit more meaningfully about scumteams. By a process of discounting some stronger town reads Cirno and Adaham would make some sense. I will be looking into this a bit further.

[kingcod]

@LobsterC - I knew someone would think leading a lynch was scummy. I beg to differ. Not only did I lead it, I also made point of reminding people I was leading it. Not exactly 'hiding out' in the vote on Hoopla! I was wrong in my judgement but that doesn't make me scum.

@Redtail986 - I see your point about getting a roleclaimed cop to state what they found at night - but I do think its marginal. It would have been so much better is Exemption had simply get quiet to begin with!

@Exemption - we really really need to understand why you roleclaimed. You won't do yourself any favours without an explanation.

@Adham et al on scumteam - well yes, I will go into my town reads - for brevity's sake I was posting up my suspicions to get some progress. So here we go:

The World Famous Day 2 Town Read List ....
LobsterCatapult - generally supportive play. Answers questions, keeps the game moving and looks at a range of options rather than narrowing in too much. Has a town feel
Exemption - Neutral to town read. The cop claim I would still like to think is a newbie town slip, since its even worse newbie scum play (sorry Exemption!).
RedTail896 - methodical and throrough. Sticks to his guns but has hunted widely.
Me=Weird - a rocky road through Valkyrie and now MW ... a null to town read but nothing jumping out as scum

So this leaves me with Adaham and Cirno. Adaham has been in and out of the scumzone, and could have collaborated with Cirno/RayFrost to split their votes between Exemption and Equinox, leaving town to fumble about stringing up Hoopla. I need to see more play from Cirno to pick up the style, but my guess is that immediately relaunching a wagon against me could be a tactic to encourage others not to start a fresh scum hunt. Alternatively it could be just being lazy as Cirno has admitted!

[kingcod]

I've already prepared smugface.png image to use when you flip scum.

heh. I have an alternative

[kingcod]

can somebody please explain to me why complaining about the doctor loss is a scumtell

Its not IMO

The kingcod case has been almost done to death at this point

Admit it , there is no new scum material about me is there? Thats because I am town and have been working to weed out scum.

Well Hoopla being town means that we can trust in her statement that she thinks LobsterCatapult and Rayfrost (now Cirno) are town. She also said the Valkyrie was town, however that was based on the way other people were acting towards her. Seen as one of the people who was making her look scum is now confirmed town we can't really trust this.

You mean, therefore, that none of Hoopla's statements amount to more than anyone elses at that point in the game ...? I think you were trying to build something useful at the start fo the paragraph but your own logic defeated the first statement? Not a criticism - been there plenty of times myself!

++++ In another part of the forest +++++
The Adaham and Cirno scumteam scenario is looking better. Adaham's enormous dissection of Cirno and Cirno's feisty response could be one giant puppet show for the benefit of town to show how distanced they are from each other. Despite all their mutual disrespect and trash talk neither of them deign to suggest each other is scum. The scum list they have between them is Lobster, Me and Exemption. Each of us has demonstrated some newbie weaknesses.

I would like to see some more tentative votes placed as we are getting lost in a wall of text. How would a vote on Adaham go down?

[kingcod]

@Cirno - You join the game with a lynch candidate and spend the next 8 days working towards why your very first post contains the correct victim.
Elegant though the case is presented its really a selective hotchpotch of circumstance, non sequitor and ommission.

He bandwagons Sandman with little explanation other than 'Not Liking Sandman's recent posts'

I was the second person to vote.. and this makes me a bandwagoneer (bandwagonista?)?

-He feigns scumhunting with two questions that are either utterly useless, or of more use to mafia.

Plenty of questions been asked by plenty of players. Few will result in useful information. I doubt scum got anything from them

When Adaham suggests as much, Kingcod uses the scummy defense of 'No one has to answer!'

Really? Scummy?

and, in regards to his second question, 'There are plenty of other reasons why someone might remark on the capabilities of their fellow townies. '. He does not list even one.

Oh come on - use your imagination (ah wait.. I think you have) If every post here was an elegantly constructed essay we would be still playing next year!

-In the same post he tries to drum up support for a sandman wagon while commenting on how town-like the more
active players are.

Wrong. Show me where I do this.

-Lists hoopla as a suspect despite never previously showing any suspicion of her. Note that his suspects are Sandman (the doctor and target of the experienced players), Hoopla (the IC), and Valkyrie (the lurker).

I'm noting ... but not seeing a pattern. Its now also scummy in your world to suggest new lines of enquiry ?

-Unvotes sandman after Redtail replaces in and suggests that the wagon is weak. He also begins to focus on Hoopla, who also happened to be Redtail's suspect at the time.

... your point being ..? You are now just narrating the game ...

-Builds a scummy case against Hoopla. The reasons for voting Hoopla including behaving like an IC, voting someone she is suspicious of, and trying to "limit scum hunting through proper discourse in a newbie game with the fallacious opinion that less is more.". What Hoopla actually did was suggest ending the day before discussion died as in her experience (and she has a lot), a longer day one is more of a hindrance than a help.

I wasn't alone in making this kind of comment. Misjudging Hoopla was a mistake made by 4 others. As I said at the beginning of that post "This has been a difficult choice to make. As I suggested earlier this is a tough crowd to read (so well done everyone) and the main lynch contenders are not stacking up for me right now"
Allow me to contrast with "Kingcod is scum. He just is. I'm going to try to get him lynched"

-He suggests a No Lynch.

It might have saved Hoopla.

-He constantly writes these kind of lines:
"I won't comment on the first bit, but the second point is giving me the jitters. Or is it just me?"
"Scum might join a bandwagon, but scum might also want to spread the votes as wide as possible to create confusion. Any ideas?"
"Its looking to be either a scummy act or a newbie miscalculation"

You forgot to add the doom-laden background music. I don't see what is so sinister about these - unlike you I am looking for the views of others in forming an opinion.

-He drives this.

Ok. You got me there. Its fully insured though.

So, if you have made it this far in my response, have a fat cigar.
Why has Cirno played like this?
- Chose an easy target as I have been mentioned previously
- Was determined to show drive and determination in getting his man following his first prophetic post a week ago
- But waited a week to see how warmly his rickety ISO would be received. Promised it Sunday and delivered it Tuesday ... after redtail chose to vote on me thus giving him a respectable ally (Redtail is town)

Cirno's objective is to whack another townie since I consider Cirno scum for the above 3 points. More scummy than Adaham, who may or may not be part of the team.

vote Cirno

[kingcod]

I have ruined many a game with quote wars that rage on for 10 pages at a time, causing those not involved in the war to become less and less enthused about the game with each post.

... and I think one of the reasons you might be doing this is to get me lynched more easily and dissuade wider scum hunting when this is really what town needs to do.

On the rest of your responses to my response most of it is WIFOM so not worth the argument with you (sorry to disappoint) - as an example

The pattern is that all of your suspects are the people one would expect scum to target

meh.

This is interesting though (don't you think Redtail) on the Hoopla vote?:

Ah, the "It wasn't just me!" defense. Yes, four others voted for Hoopla. And of them, only one (Redtail) had a proper reason for doing so.

Does this make you think that Cirno is wise and perceptive or just sucking up to Redtail? What constitutes a 'proper reason'? We ALL 4 voters gave reasons - they were ALL wrong!

Lobster and Exemption - what do you make of whats going on?

[kingcod]

You're essentially giving up?

No, I'm just not giving Cirno a permanent spotlight on a fruitless recycling of very old material when I have addressed it all previously. If there is something you are particularly keen to see re-addressed I would be glad to oblige, or if there is something new to ask I am glad to give some fresh insight.

[kingcod]

I'm going to twist reponses by others to to make them look like they are not responding

You have had plenty out of me Cirno, perhaps you could count how many of your 'impartial' observations I have responded to if you are stuck for things to do?

On the scum team with Adaham - yes, I am not sure about it. It is a possibility in my mind but I'm more interested in you as scum than Adaham as scum right now. For the record the speculation is not worthless. It was based on the fact that compared with other players you had both acted in a scummier fashion at the point we were discussing possible scum pairings. Do you think Adaham is scum?

[kingcod]

If kingcod (and maybe Cirno) turn out innocent, we are being seriously tricked by the mafia

Its already happening. I'm at L-1.

It has been relatively easy for a wagon to be maintained on me as I am one of a minority of players who has been in from the start and therefore has an easy profile to follow. It has been a breeze for scum to hide under the various player replacements we have had, such that everyone's natural inclination is to lynch who they know.

Town is now in serious jeaopardy of losing this game. We have lost our power roles due to (IMO) some pretty hopeless play from town ( I played a part in this I'm sure) rather than particular cunning from scum. I really don't want this to be the first game of mafia when I'm on the losing side. I'm not sure what else I can do to make that happen right now - I've roleclaimed , I've had a pop at finding scum, and I've wanted to hear from ALL players rather than enter into endless duo-log. I'd hardly say I was the best player of the game (Semi-experienced is such an overstatement ) but I'm doing my best here!

[kingcod]

Cirno can you help me out? - a simple "agree" or "disagree" to the following statements:

1. Town is now in serious jeaopardy of losing this game.
2. We have lost our power roles due to some pretty hopeless play from town
3. I (thats me - Kingcod) am not the best player of the game

[kingcod]

you speculated that theargument between Adaham and I could be scum motivated without any reason other than 'I have a null or town read on everyone else

Anyone else have a problem with that ?

The fact that you tried to label Adaham and I as scumbuddies leads me to believe that he is not your scumbuddy.

But what about this? In a subtle volte face Cirno has dropped Adaham from his scum list of 3. But not because Adaham has behaved any less or more like scum - but because it better fits his scum castle in the air. Adaham I'd like your view on Cirno.

[kingcod]

re Quotation-Gate - Yes Redtail I agree, its confusing and I promise to stop made up quotes after this one:

I lick window panes for kicks

. I know Cirno and I have been playing about with quotes .. but Cirno started it!

@Redtail/ Me=Weird - lordy I didn't think my gloomy post would be so hated! I guess looking in from the outside it would have some AtE. But I genuinely felt that way when I posted it. Put yourself in my position - L1 - it is looking like my participation in the game is about to end. You can hardly blame me for sharing my frustration that once out the game scum stood a better chance of winning and we are now weak on power roles.

@Cirno - thanks for answering my questions. I'm kind of uncomfortabel with the deal you suggest for this - sure I will have a go at answering questions - you are the uber-questioneer tho so I have trouble keeping up! But to lay off Adaham? I don't know about that. I think I need to keep

FOS Adaham

because you, Cirno, are keen for me to ignore him. If, however, I was to unvote Cirno due to a change of state in the game then
of course I would also be reconsidering the Adaham case. Does that make sense?

on the point about:

you speculated that theargument between Adaham and I could be scum motivated without any reason other than 'I have a null or town read on everyone else

My question to town was - does anyone else think this is scummy? I am struggling to see whats wrong. Its not strong, but I am not the strongest at making arguments.

Some interesting stuff has appeared here since I last posted. Principally the interplay between ME=Weird and Exemption. I don't feel we have ever got to the bottom of whether we have a cop. I am interested in Cirno's opinion of Exemption being shaped by my views of him ... is there a suggestion that I thought Exemption was scum that Cirno's view would chnage? I am beginning to be tied in knots here!


ok I am now outside typing in the dark so im going to submit until I can get back to the light!

[kingcod]

@Me=Weird - re. 'Why do you address me?' - sorry my mistake - it was Exemption and RedTail who thought my 'doom and gloom' post was too, er, doom and gloom.

@Cirno - re. ignoring Adaham

I didn't get that feeling from the text you quoted above but from this instead:

you must answer my questions or admit that you had no reason to suggest that Adaham and I were scumbuddies and little reason to suspect Adaham at all

Sorry I didn't make that clear.

I'll answer your three questions:

1.What led you to believe that Adaham is more likely scum than the other players (other than me)?

I explained here:

LobsterCatapult - generally supportive play. Answers questions, keeps the game moving and looks at a range of options rather than narrowing in too much. Has a town feel
Exemption - Neutral to town read. The cop claim I would still like to think is a newbie town slip, since its even worse newbie scum play (sorry Exemption!).
RedTail896 - methodical and throrough. Sticks to his guns but has hunted widely.
Me=Weird - a rocky road through Valkyrie and now MW ... a null to town read but nothing jumping out as scum

So this leaves me with Adaham and Cirno. Adaham has been in and out of the scumzone, and could have collaborated with Cirno/RayFrost to split their votes between Exemption and Equinox, leaving town to fumble about stringing up Hoopla.

2.What lead you to believe the argument between Adaham and I was scum motivated.

I explained here:

Adaham's enormous dissection of Cirno and Cirno's feisty response could be one giant puppet show for the benefit of town to show how distanced they are from each other. Despite all their mutual disrespect and trash talk neither of them deign to suggest each other is scum. The scum list they have between them is Lobster, Me and Exemption. Each of us has demonstrated some newbie weaknesses.

I accept some of the subsequent criticism of this from other players (essentially that part of this could be WIFOM). However, its still contributing to my FoS on Adaham.

3.Why have you now become undecided as to Adaham's alignment whereas previously you listed him as a lynch candidate and insisted at least twice that he was my scumbuddy?

Well, the Me=Weird / Exemption interplay has perked my interest and opened the field a little in who else might be scum.

you are wrong in the fact that cirno has not helped widen the scum search. this is based on his interactions with weird, adaham and perhaps even me since there was a discussion on me. im not saying that all 3 of these people are town

... so you are saying that either Adaham or Weird might be scum?
Looking forward to your in depth post.

[kingcod]

@Me=Weird & Kingcod

: Please explain why you believe I am the single best lynch at this point in time.

1. You aren't one of these people:

I explained here:

LobsterCatapult - generally supportive play. Answers questions, keeps the game moving and looks at a range of options rather than narrowing in too much. Has a town feel
Exemption - Neutral to town read. The cop claim I would still like to think is a newbie town slip, since its even worse newbie scum play (sorry Exemption!).
RedTail896 - methodical and throrough. Sticks to his guns but has hunted widely.
Me=Weird - a rocky road through Valkyrie and now MW ... a null to town read but nothing jumping out as scum

So this leaves me with Adaham and Cirno. Adaham has been in and out of the scumzone, and could have collaborated with Cirno/RayFrost to split their votes between Exemption and Equinox, leaving town to fumble about stringing up Hoopla.

2. Tireless attacks on me when I know I'm town. I can't say this will be a reason for others to vote you of course.
3. If one set of questions for me to answer result in nothing you can take apart (e.g. my last post) you try a new set of questions rather than accept any answers.

So its not an open and shut solid case but no one else comes close right now.
I'll do the eye rolling to save you the effort

[kingcod]

I sense Cirno's post carries with it the full weight of staying up till 4.30.

I'll keep this brief : Cirno's assessment of my day 2 is getting pretty desparate. My contributions have been weighted towards responding to Cirno because Cirno has been the most active player (so fair play to Cirno for that!). I don't hear myself whining - I'm sorry that responding to Cirno should be interpreted like this (thats bit of an AtE in itself Cirno?).

I have to admit its getting harder to hold down a view on Adaham because he just ain't here - Check in my friend!

I hoped the Me=Weird vote by Exemption might help us understand what power roles we actually had. Sadly nothing much else occured so I have little else to go on

@Cirno - whats your view on Exemption? What do you think of Me=Weird's case against him?

[kingcod]

@Cirno:

Where are your most recent assessments of other players? Can you list the questions you put to other players?
Could you indicate where I have

not[/] made contributions through posting? I think I have. You think I haven't. Please - some evidence.
Can you identify all the posts I have made that undermine another player's post rather than points?
Please list all my votes and FoS - can you explain why these would not be attempts at getting people lynched, and how this differs from votes and FoS made by other players?
Please show how this "It has been a breeze for scum to hide under the various player replacements we have had, such that everyone's natural inclination is to lynch who they know" is whining rather than an obesrvation about scum tactics.
Please demonstrate categorically that suspicions I have voiced are expressed such that I 'hope' others will agree. Compare and contrast with "@Everyone Else: Lynch Kingcod. Seriously."
Please show why my change in opinion is more scummy than other players doing the same in the course of this game
Please explain why you feel it necessary to advise town on a course of action in the situation where I am town and you have succeeded in lynching me.

@Adaham - If I were lynched and you find me to be town would you vote Cirno or Redtail?
@Me=Weird - I think you might just be quoting me out of context. Why would you do this? I have previously identified redtail as likely town ("methodical and throrough. Sticks to his guns but has hunted widely")
@Redtail - If I flip town who will you look at first as scum?
@Exemption - Who will you investigate tonight as scum?
@Lobster - you said on 22nd that you had not made you mind up on Cirno. Have you now?

[kingcod]

welcome Kyle99.

Cirno has reserved a special kind of firestorm just for you. This is a comment about language, misuse of quotes and OMGUS. Its not helping your cause Cirno. Are you more cross that you are at L-1 or that you are suffering because of RayFrost's legacy? If you weren't so angry that you were bitch-slapping Kyle99 can you give some pointers for day 3 partricularly Lobster and Exemption?

Let me talk a little about how this player replacement has altered the dynamics of the game

from my perspective

.

Previously I had made a case against Adaham. Not a very strong case I have later concluded. Adaham voted me along with Cirno whom I consider scum. Now with Kyle99/Adaham joining the vote on Cirno I have two alternatives:

1. Cirno is scum and Kyle99/Adaham is town
2. Cirno and Kyle99/Adaham are town being bamboozled by scum and by each other
3. Kyle99/Adaham is scum

Scenario 1 is currently my preferred option right now but for the record in case I should shuffle off my mortal coil lets look at scenario 2 and 3.

Scenario 2: Who is most likely to be doing the bamboozling?

Redtail896? - Redtail plays so much like town it hurts. Its balanced, measured and logical. And yet Redtail has spent proportionately more time critiquing the reasoning of others than offering his own perspective. Take the diplomatic handling of Kyle's initial analysis and Cirno's, um, critique of that. If you take out Cirno's invective, Redtail's response looks pretty similar.

Me=Weird? - Quite a possibility. Replaced a 'gut' read on me as town with one where I am possibly scum at the point others were voting.

Scenario 3: "Kyle99 is scum". If Cirno flips town I would probably go with this as my next course of action. Whilst Kyle99 is making a case against Cirno based on Ray's play (which I don't see is a bad thing as Cirno is a stronger player IMO than Ray and therefore less likely to give off easy scum reads.), if Cirno is town then Kyle could be bamboozling me as much as bamboozling redtail!

With very little time until end of day two, and with so much water under the bridge, would everyone be prepared to list their second choice lynch candidate(s) to save a massive re-read come day 3?

I'll go first:

Me=Weird

[kingcod]

So I'm interested in responses to my question about a second choice scum, and a few other highlights. As per usual its Cirno and RedTail that bother to respond.

Cirno says something like 'lynch kingcod, lynch kingcod, lynch kingcod. oh -and there are six other candidates. Me=Weird and Lobster could be the better ones'
Redtail says something like 'LobsterCatapult or Exemption'
Cirno says something like 'but Lobster hasnt done enough to justify a lynch. And Exemption is perhaps being kept alive to hide scum ... like.. like a zombie slave!'

Me=Weird says 'Cirno is more townie now'


So here is the denoument for today:

@Redtail - I don't ignore yoru analysis. I pay a lot of attention because I respect it, but I have not responded to it until I had seen enough today.
@Cirno - I loath you playstyle, I hate you language, insults and aggression. I am amused by your pics.

The thing is, I now see that, as the most two active players, who more often not agree with each other (with some exceptions), your playstyle has been more consistent in its focus on a day 2 result than anyone else. Are you scum buddies? No I can't say that you are - mostly because of Redtail's consistency, but, I will admit, during the last 3 days, because of Cirno's dissection of Kyle. Kyle I can't yet make out, but for the moment your vote on Cirno just doesn't stack up. I know RayFrost was scummy, and I have been battered enough over the head by Cirno over the last to day's to sense that the pain in my head was the result of scum. This is probably not a strong enough reason to keep a vote on Cirno however, and there have not been any further indications of scumminess since my original 3 reasons for voting Cirno.

For this reason

unvote Cirno

I am not sure who from the candidates listed by Redtail, Cirno as day 3 lynches I want to go for yet. I doubt it will make much difference at this stage as a wagon on any of them is unlikely to be unsupported. Me=Weird and Kyle as active recent posters have the potential to be scum from what they have said - M=W for saying Cirno is town but not unvoting, Kyle99 for a flakier case on Cirno than I ever had. Exemption is also on my shortlist for being the first to join the Hoopla wagon after my vote, claiming cop when 3 votes appeared on him (he should have stayed quiet about his role, hoped the vote would die down and then investigated properly)

[kingcod]

@Me=Weird - Its you and kyle rather than Lobster I have on my shortlist. It was Redtail that fingered Lobster.
@Redtail - today I saw who else you think might be scum. Not odd.
@Cirno ="I think he is less likely to talk his way out of a lynch than Kingcod, which makes Kingcod the bigger threat." What? You seem to be muddling being scum with someone being able to construct a coherent argument.
@Lobster - keeping an open mind until the last minute? Declaring Cirno town just after I unvote her? You get the

FoS Lobster

I will vote, on the understanding that is more likely a pointer for day 3 at this stage. Its Kyle99's flimsy attack on Cirno that has swung it slightly ahead of M=W and Lobster.

vote Kyle99

[kingcod]

If kingcod is scum, my guess is LC is the buddy. Thoughts?

Careful. When I flip town don't take your eye of Lobster. As I say Lobster has my FoS.

[kingcod]

Maybe unvote Cirno Kyle?

Totally baffled why a FoS on Lobster is a bad post ... unless he is your scumbuddy Kyle?

Redtail I hope you are clearer on my meaning than Kyle is - I'm asking you to keep an eye on LC after I'm lynched. It will be more obvious at that point why I'm saying this.

[kingcod]

Wow, it seems forever since I was killed. This was the toughest game of mafia I have played yet (yeah well it was only my third) - Once Cirno got going on me I never recovered! I would hate to actually be scum with Cirno on my case

Thanks Korejora for taking us through this.