Newbie 958 ~Game over!
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remouk Townie
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remouk Townie
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remouk Townie
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Well, I was simply wondering how I could pick someone randomly, I thought about random.org, used it, and then wrote that line without much thinking.brianj wrote:@remouk- Why did you feel the need to stress the fact you were voting randomly, even going as far as explaining the method you used to pick your target?
P.S. I forgot to mention that I'm not english, so I may misunderstand or say strange things, do not hesitate to ask if something isn't clear.Knowledge is power.-
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remouk Townie
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No. Right now, I don't have a clue... And TBH, at this point I don't know what to ask/say to get evidence about who might be scum or not.Incognito wrote:But seriously, voting someone with at least marginally non-random reasons is so much cooler. Do you have any current thoughts about anyone?Knowledge is power.-
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remouk Townie
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I did not evade the question, I answered as clearly as I could. Sorry if I still don't have any lead...ThatTumblweed wrote:@remouk
With all the questions and poking going around, you don't have any clues? I've been picking up vibes pretty well. Is this you just determined to stay as neutral as possible by evading the question?
I totally understand. Don't forget that I did give all my thoughts. The thing is, I still don't have anything to say about your behaviors. Maybe I need a little bit more time than you.Incognito wrote:remouk, it's usually just a good idea to just give your thoughts on situations. Let us know what you're thinking, etc. Once you do that, I'm sure the questions will just flow naturally. If you're town, we obviously need toa)figure out that you're town based on what you're posting andb)maybe notice things that youyourselfmay have noticed that maybe none of us have noticed. By keeping your thoughts bottled up, that doesn't help us at all if you're town, but I could see how it might help you if you're scum.
Yes I played my first game here, just like here I was town. I won and yeah, you can read that in the begining I didn't talk a lot (I didn't know what to say/ask), I observed and it was seen as lurking, they thought it was scummy so I had to explain myself and change my playstyle. I don't want that to happen again because it made the game tough for me, that's why I'm clearly saying that I still don't have any clue.Incognito wrote:Incidentally, remouk, based on your title of "Goon" I'm guessing you've played at least one other game on here. I haven't looked at the game but were you scum there or town? If you were town, did you have a difficult time figuring out what to say there too?Knowledge is power.-
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remouk Townie
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remouk Townie
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About Earlder1's avatar thing: this was way too much "off-topic" so I understand it looks weird. Personnally, I think it had nothing to do here, but I don't see it as a scum thing. The scummy thing is that he said that he knows it can look scummy... And then, later, he states that he is happy to look a little bit scum... It has been discussed, but I don't think you should be happy to look scum. I totally understand why LordChronos votes him. But I won't: Earlder1 is as noob as me, so this can be "bad playing" (just like I did, saying "I have no clue yet" was worse that saying nothing at all, which was bad too. Lesson learned).
Also, I have a town read about Alta, because he has been "protecting" me while he was still voting me. I think a scum would have try to avoid being contradictory, and would have been more careful. Also, he stated he didn't have a clue, just like I did, and as I'm town I do know it's a town behavior. But now, there is quite a lot of discussions, I think he can try to make up his mind.
Not much to say about the others, except Incognito.
Incognito is interesting: he voted Earlder1, saying that he had very good reasons to vote, but only explained them when questions were asked. There's nothing more scummy than voting without explanation (except when there are none at the begining of the game). Also, I don't agree with that:
The game is about poiting things. If no one voted XXX when you decided to vote him with no explanation, I don't get how it can change someone's mind to the point that he sees the same thing as you. I see it as a "let's vote XXX, maybe someone will vote him too, I'll agree with his explanations and won't be seen as a follower/scum jumping on a wagon". And I won't forget that Ingognito is an experienced player. I totally understand Coach Travis's reactions to Incognito's posts.Incognito wrote:Coach Travis, I sometimes don't provide reasoning for my votes to try and see who might be thinking along the same lines as me when I place an unexplained vote. I figure that if a person can see what I see when I didn't even have to explain it, there's a decent chance that the person who has seen what I've also seen is likely thinking along the same lines I am and could potentially be pro-town. I wouldn't realistically leave an unexplained vote on a person up until the point that the person gets lynched, but I do think it's a good initial indicator.
So, Incognito is my top suspect.
unvote, vote IncognitoKnowledge is power.-
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remouk Townie
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@mod Nikanor: I don't see ThatTumblweed in your latest Vote Counts!
Oops. Just visualize her name in the not voting list and I'm sure it'll appear. ~Nik
@Coach Travis: Yeah, of course my vote is weak, it's the first day and we don't have much to build a case. I'm not sure at all that Incognito is scum, but he is my top suspect and voting him will make things clearer because he has to answer.
@Incognito: I didn't thought about that strategy and never saw it (I've only played one game before this one). Anyway, I do think that a non-explained vote is scummy (even if good town player already did it), because it's far easier to explain a vote after everyone talked about it, than before. And you can always use the "I wanted to put pressure on him" backdoor.
@ThatTumblweed: I used "protecting" with the quotes. As I said I'm not english so my choice of words may be bad, sorry about that.Knowledge is power.-
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remouk Townie
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Yes. That's why I keep my vote there. I do understand the strategy but I still find this scummy for the reasons I explained in my last post.LordChronos wrote:@remouk
Do you still find Incognito most suspicious after his reply to your case on him
Am I the only one to think that way?Knowledge is power.-
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remouk Townie
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remouk Townie
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remouk Townie
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I did a fast catch-up, I'll take the time to re-read more carefuly.
First, I don't have a strong scum feeling against Earlder1, so I won't hammer.
Also, I unvoted Incognito because yes, my vote was weak, but it was better than nothing and I wanted to see the reactions. Nothing particular came up, so I unvoted. Beside of that, I agree with his point of view about policy lynching.
I have a bad feeling about Shadow Dancer, but I can't explain it. Maybe because he looks so confident. I'm tempted to vote against him.Knowledge is power.-
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remouk Townie
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I didn't vote Shadow Dancer because I couldn't find what bothered me. I've ISOed him a little bit:
Since the begining, he explicitely said he had a town read on Earl, but then, he suddently votes against him with a case only based on another game, and the fact that he has experience in the IRL game. I played a lot IRL at Werewolves (which is kinda the same thing as Mafia), and playing here is totally different, the forum changes everything. Also, winning your first game doesn't mean your a good player (I won my first game, and considering the suspicions I arise, I can defenitely say I'm not a good player...).
It looked like a weak reason to put him L-1:
vote Shadow Dancer
@Shadow Dancer: I gave my opinion about Earlder1. I don't have a scum read on him. He did a few suspicious things but at this point, I don't see them as scum-tells.Knowledge is power.-
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remouk Townie
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Sorry I meant "implicitely" when I said "explicitely"... And I guess I misunderstood the read Shadow Dancer had on Earl, here are the quotes:
Shadow Dancer wrote:I really did not like Earl openly admitting trying to seem scummy... But his explanation - as naive as believable as it was - gives me the feeling of an inexperienced player.
That's where I understood you had a noob town read on him, while leaving the door open if he continues to play that way.Shadow Dancer wrote:@ Earlder: OK, you're telling the truth (at least almost, you replaced out of a mini modded by Inco, right?). So I take you as inexperienced for now. Still - if you keep acting intentionally scummy one way or another I'd consider you at least a good choice for a D1 policy lynch, if no real suspect occurs...
Second one of course... Oh, or maybe I didn't lie and said what I understood in your posts?Shadow Dancer wrote:- Either you are intentionally lying about what I said.
- Or you are lying about ISO reading me, making all that up from wrong memory with obvious intentions.
- Or you do not really care, do not read carefully and/or do not really follow the conversation.
Each of the three possibilities is pretty much scummy.
It's still sudden to me: I thought you had a non-scum read on him, and then "I'd also put Earl rather in the scummy corner right now", before "metagaming" and voting.II.)
Please note this post of mine, where I (i) explicitely describe Earl as scummy and (ii) I officially announce that - and why - I was going to have a meta read on him.rem wrote:[...] but then, he suddently votes against him [...]
Impression of you which one gets from this is pretty much the same as in I)
I'm sorry but when I read your case, I see a big part of it talking about what he did in his last game, and comparing it to what he's been doing here.III.)
Whyrem wrote:[...] with a case only based on another game.only? Do you think meta reading or past game experience with other players is a illegitimate ground for suspicions for some reasons?
And no: My case on him case is based onthisgame, obviously. I only use that other game as a reference to point out why I think Earl is scum inthis game.
He didn't say he was intentionally acting scummy, but that he was happy not looking "too town". That's a huge difference.
IV.)
I also have quite some RL experience in playing mafia and werewolf - with different setups and different kinds of people.rem wrote:[...] and the fact that he has experience in the IRL game. I played a lot IRL at Werewolves (which is kinda the same thing as Mafia), and playing here is totally different, the forum changes everything.
However, just answer me this question: Would you ever consider intentionally acting scummy/anti-townish and/or openly claiming that you are intentionally acting scummy/anti-townish consider pro-town play in eiter forum or meatworld mafia?
Looks like you agree with me...
And no: Basically the forum only changes three (or four) things: I) You do not know most people you're playing with personally, Ia) can't look them in the face and II) have the possibility to reread and carefully revise every single one of your own and analyse other peoples posts (whichyouobviously do to a penally low amount). III) Is the obvious fact that games last much longer while being much more slow paced here.
I was refering to "So I wonder: Where is all this brilliance in this game?", and the things that led you to this question.V.)
The fact that Earlrem wrote:Also, winning your first game doesn't mean your a good playerwonthat game was one of the less impressive ones that I stated... I am tired of pointing out that you obviously do not care about the case against Earl or what people write in this threat...
You missed my point: I won my first game. But I can't say I'm a good player, because here, as a town, I arise suspicions.VI.)
Another fact: Not only did Earl not arise much suspicion in that game but he was considered no. 1 target by both doc and mafia in N1, which is a sure indication of his pro town impression in that game. If you would have had a brief look at that game or just read the few facts I stated in my case post you would not compare apples and oranges right now.rem wrote:(I won my first game, and considering the suspicions I arise, I can defenitely say I'm not a good player...)
I already said this: I don't have a strong scum read on him. That's why I don't hammer and try to find other leads.VII.)
Why is bringing up a solid, backed up case against some one who was rather suspicious all the time, though for prior to that rather weak reasons, a weak reason to vote for some one?rem wrote:It looked like a weak reason to put him L-1
VIII.)
Some questins:rem wrote:@Shadow Dancer: I gave my opinion about Earlder1. I don't have a scum read on him. He did a few suspicious things but at this point, I don't see them as scum-tells.
- So how do you interpret Earl's behaviour?
I said: "He did a few suspicious things but at this point, I don't see them as scum-tells". Meaning: "he did strange things but right now I can't say if it's scummy or nooby". Does that answer your question?- In your book - which relation is there between the words "suspicious" and "scummy"?
I'll tell you when I'll see one!- What would you consider legitimate scum tells?
I don't defend Earl. I just think he talked too casually ("look my avatar!", "I'm happy not to look too town"), that's not scum-tell to me.- What are the reasons (read: objectivereasons, not just some obscurefeelings) for your acquittal of Earl? Are they better researched than your case against me?!
I wonder if I better should have let it go and hammer him...
Anyway, my vote was also here to get reactions, and your reaction looks pretty agressive to me, so I'll leave my vote here for now.
P.S. In ~12h I'll be offline a few days, coming back sunday.Knowledge is power.-
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remouk Townie
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remouk Townie
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Was right about Earl... Let's start by replying to Shadow Dancer:
The fact that it was sudden was not the only problem: it was sudden + on a particular timing (L-1) + I did not agree with the reasoning.Shadow Dancer wrote:Yeah, WOT-wars continues...
@remouk:
Let's put this straight: Before meta-ing Earl I considered him definitely clumsy noob.remouk wrote:[...] It's still sudden to me: I thought you had a non-scum read on him, and then "I'd also put Earl rather in the scummy corner right now", before "metagaming" and voting.
However, I found out he has a lot more mafia experience than he let us know and is overall a really good and intelligent player, which pretty much nullifies that possibility. And yes: Sudden (or not even that sudden) changes in opinioncanoccur in a mafia game. IMO that's no scum tell, bad reasoning is.
What question did I ignore at that point? Also, I repeat: your case is too much based on meta-gaming to me. That's just my point of view.
My reason for the vote is obviously what he did inrem wrote:[...] I'm sorry but when I read your case, I see a big part of it talking about what he did in his last game, and comparing it to what he's been doing here.thisgame so far. You have no point here. You also utterly ignore my questions.
Perfect example of what annoys me. You make me say things I didn't. I said he was "happy not to look too town": he didn't act "less townish" on purpose. Nothing was made on purpose. He just noticed that he was not considered "100% town" and casualy said he was happy about it.
Yeah, you are right that were his very words.rem wrote:He didn't say he was intentionally acting scummy, but that he was happy not looking "too town". That's a huge difference.
Now tell me the difference between intentionally acting scummy and intentionally acting less townish. Both means you make it more likely scum hunting will be let astray and useless discussion will be created, thus both is likewise anti-town.
I think my exact word were "scummy/anti-town", by the way.
See above.
So? You also agree that acting intentionally anti-town is as bad in RL mafia as it is here?rem wrote:[...] Looks like you agree with me...
Mmh, I can read my answer, what's the problem with it? Or you want me to c/p once again that I think he was taking it too casually, etc.?
You avoid my question.rem wrote:
I already said this: I don't have a strong scum read on him. That's why I don't hammer and try to find other leads.I wrote:[...] - So how do you interpret Earl's behaviour?
If you're serious and not just here to upset me, please stop this kind of answer. 1) Tell me how did I "avoid" your question, 2) I OBVIOUSLY used other words to make my point clearer. Strange is suspicious. Suspicious is scummy. But it's not scum-tell (-> "because of this I know he is scum for sure").
No, it awoids my qzúestion again. Instead you twist your own words. Now Earl's behaviour is suddenly just strange, no longer suspicious.rem wrote:
I said: "He did a few suspicious things but at this point, I don't see them as scum-tells". Meaning: "he did strange things but right now I can't say if it's scummy or nooby". Does that answer your question?I wrote:- In your book - which relation is there between the words "suspicious" and "scummy"?
... I answered... I'm noob. I have no idea of what a scum-tell can be. I won my first game because of the global behavior of the last scum, not because of scum-tells.
Abother question you do not want to answer... Pffff...rem wrote:
I'll tell you when I'll see one!I wrote:- What would you consider legitimate scum tells?
I was worried that I'll draw too much attention and be lynched or NKed because of this.
Are you doubting the legitimacy of your point here or are you just more concerned with your own appearance than with scum hunting?rem wrote:I wonder if I better should have let it go and hammer him...
Being agressive by trying to make me look what I'm not, is not scum-hunting.
This is just me in hard core scum hunting mode. I know what I am doing, Do you?rem wrote:Anyway, my vote was also here to get reactions, and your reaction looks pretty agressive to me, so I'll leave my vote here for now.
And can I evidently assume that agression is a scum tell for you?
Also: Do not underestimate my sense of staginess!
You can point a finger at me, but don't put false evidence in my pocket to make me look scum. (That's what I think you're trying to do)
Thanks.Also I am not defensive here, if anything I am on an attack. I totally disassemble renouks post and his hollow reasoning and hand it back to him as the piese of junk it's been from the very beginning.
Thanks again.Sorry, but this is just totally ridiculous. His case is as inexistent as his logic, IMO.
If you're town, let me tell you that you are REALLY bad... I'm as town as Earl was.I think, I know, my case against rem is really strong right now. I would even switch my vote to rem, if we can find a majority for the lynch.
Tell me what question did I ignore...Shadow Dancer wrote:It's really interesting how remouk plays world upside down.
I do not want to make your points look stupid, I just point out the inconsistencies in you explanations.
Also It is notmeignoringyourpoints.
Could it be that you take all this much too personnally?Knowledge is power.-
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remouk Townie
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Not sure yet. Sorry, there's a lot of things to analyze, I'm still trying to make things up.brianj wrote:remouk, so what is your opinion on Incognito now?
Yeah. His case against me is very "you attack me, so you lie: you are scum", and I don't think a townie has any reason to react this way. He constantly says that I avoids his questions, but I'd like to know which questions, because I tried to answer them all.LordChronos wrote:@remouk
Are you still thinking Shadow Dancer is scum?Knowledge is power.-
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remouk Townie
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Are you serious? You may not agree with my reasons, but I explained them all. How can you say I didn't?Shadow Dancer wrote:I don't mind that you attack me, I mind that you do not care about telling me or any one else the reasons for that.
I did explain why I was not hammering: what I saw in his behavior was rookie mistakes, nothing more. Nothing scummy.I also mind that you defend Earl but also do not care to find or tell us any convincing reasons for your defense, though Earl was close to lynch and anything that would have allowed us to see his behaviour in another light might have been really helpful - though that close to deadline it was unlikely we'd find another lynch anyway.
Never said that...Your reasoning right now is the same by the way: I am scum because I attack you. Who is OMGUSing right now?!
Also, don't forget that I attacked you first...
I still have no idea, I'm not enough experienced... Let's imagine... For example, someone changing his vote with no reason, to join a more successful wagon which leads to a town lynch. I'd consider this as a scum-tell. Does that answer? ...I can make you a list. But how's to start with this one:
What are in your opinion legitimate scumtells? (would be good if you could weigh them a bit like strong scum tells, waek scum tells, things that might be scummy in certain contexts)
With that question answered we might be able to find a common ground to discuss about other things.
Also, once again: please tell me which of your question I did not answer.
Of course I take your attacks personally. And I may look upset because of the way you're trying to make me look scum. Maybe it's not the perfect way to play, but I can't let you do it.Shadow Dancer wrote:I would also really ask you to doyourselfthe favour of answering my last question, just to yourself, you don't need to tellme:
Are you taking all this personally?
I ask this because from your argumentation style I've got the impression that you are a person that likes to go after feelings a lot and sets value on harmonic personal realtionships. That is not a bad thing of course and not even a generally bad approach to scum hunting - but in the boundaries of a game were you basically have to distrust every one it can be very dangerous.Knowledge is power.-
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remouk Townie
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remouk Townie
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