Right, as requested by a number of people - and because I feel the need to get involved again after all this exam nonsense - I'll be giving my current thoughts on each player up until post #196 in the order given in Post #1 (abbreviating Post #X to P#X for the rest of this post, for ease of writing). Due to the recent discussion on ISOs between Robo and Cove, I'll make it clear that this ISO will be a full, post-by-post analysis. Apologies for the
major
wall of text...and I'm fully aware that most of the ISOs are just descriptions of what so-and-so said (a.k.a. "fluff"). That said, in some cases I've gone in to quite a bit more detail (mostly those with fewer posts).
In my opinion posts don't tend to be inherently scummy/townie on their own, so I will be looking at posting behaviour as a whole rather than the phrasing of a particular post. I
will
be speculating quite a bit, and probably looking for worst-case-scenarios in an effort to scum-hunt. You have been warned! Also, please note that unless specifically mentioned I have not looked at players' previous games (if any). I've also just discovered how to link to posts, so will be over-using that outrageously here.
- (AKR, for short)
- : Relatively random vote on GroupThink, with joking suggestion for a massclaim. Interestingly, votes for GroupThink for having his spot replaced twice in the confirmation phase. As scum can't talk to each other before N1 (at least, that's how I read the rules...any SE/IC/mod/scum (well, worth a try!) care to confirm?), though Kleedrac was the one to make the first vote on GroupThink I don't reckon this is an attempt at getting a pre-planned bandwagon going...more to try to provoke discussion with a half-plausible reason for a vote.
- : Picks up on GroupThink for what AKR suggests is an OMGUS vote. Already looking at behaviour rather than randomly voting Also, AKR is relatively suspicious of others' actions early on in the game. Not necessarily a bad thing.
- : Answers Robo's questions. The answer to question 6 is interesting: "Q) Lynch all lurkers? A) Lynch all active lurkers, especially day 1. That's a huge scumtell to me."
He clearly follows this through, with focus on GroupThink and asking for responses
- : Asks Robo to answer the questions himself, despite Robo stating fairly clearly (IMO) that he would be answering them after everyone else has answered. Given his fairly in-depth later analysis of others, this strikes me as a little odd (i.e. aware that Robo stated he'd be answering after everyone else), as if he's trying to provoke Robo early on.
- : Doesn't react to Kleedrac's vote on him (albeit for the reason of liking Pepsi). Combine this with Remy's vote on him (P#13) that he didn't comment on either, it seems as if AKR doesn't react OMGUS-ly during the random vote stage. Instead, AKR repeats Cove's call for GroupThink to post, further emphasising his P#22 "Lynch All Lurkers" answer, and he still has his vote on GroupThink.
- : Confuses me a bit here, I'll admit...he responds to Remy's vote on Robo (for waiting to hear all our answers before answering himself) by stating that he's read some of Robo's past games, despite having asked Robo to answer back in P#23. About two and a half hours have passed between these posts, during which time he's posted once more (P#26), suggesting that he's been online and active (possibly doing some reading up on Robo). A bit hypocritical, however, as he doesn't clarify when he'd read up on Robo, nor why he hadn't rescinded his request. Care to clarify this for me?
- : Queries kindred's response to Robo's "Lynch all Lurkers" question. It differs from his own, which is most likely why he's asking about it.
- : Asks GroupThink to answer a question he asked back in P#12, which I have to say I don't agree as him having a half-solid case with (i.e. the question isn't overly major), but do like the fact that he picks GroupThink up for now answering it. His question about why GroupThink thought Cove's post was stifling town discussion I agree with, as I just don't see the link. All in all, putting quite a bit of pressure on GroupThink already.
- : Responds to Robo's analysis of his answers to the questions well, providing some useful insight to his answer and gives the newbies a bit of advice. Also picks Robo up on his big wall-o-text, as Robo's answers are mainly just facts without opinions (i.e. no real conclusions drawn). I'm aware that I'm sort of doing the same here, but I hope to have some conclusions ready by the end.
- : Essentially repeats his question to Robo after Robo posts a relatively vague answer. By this point, I would imagine most people would have just a slight read on someone, no matter how faint.
- : Comments on the Cove/GroupThink "argument" and that it feels contrived. Essentially claiming that the two of them are scum and they're having a go at each other to make the other look more townie if they get lynched. Also continues to ask GroupThink (who has posted between here and his last request) for an answer to P#12. Not really seeing much of it, though, as the "argument" is barely going anywhere. Bit too early to call it "bussing", I think.
- : Responds to Cove FoSing him for thinking of "bussing". To me, Cove's actions there are a bit OMGUS, but that's for a later discussion.
- : Adds that the "confirmed vote" that Cove placed on GroupThink is just tunnelling further.
- : Defends himself against Robo and Cove's arguments. Up until this point, he is correct in saying that he's only suggested that Cove and GroupThink are scum.
- : Backs down a little and admits that his posts could be seen as being too aggressive. Also points out that kindred and AQUA are lurking. So far, his cases have been fairly well thought out, and at least some explanation or grounding given for each of them. I'm not saying I agree with them, only that I agree with putting pressure on people to see how they respond.
- : Picks up on Kleedrac's possible suggestion that he has insider knowledge on the roles in the game (P#48) and votes for him. Also suggests that Kleedrac has only posted "fluff" so far (more on Kleedrac later). Interesting new change of target for AKR, moving from Cove over to Kleedrac...
- : Ensures that Cove understood what his case on Kleedrac actually was. Not entirely sure it was necessary, but nothing wrong with confirming it I suppose.
- : Further goes on to talk about the fact that Kleedrac didn't think that scum claiming cop/doc was a terrible gambit. I agree that set-up speculation this early on is a bit scummy, though I'm not entirely sure that's what Klee was suggesting. However, I can certainly pick up on why AKR thought it was a valid case.
- : Is happy with the majority of Klee's defence, but spots his role-claim. Definitely a big blunder, and one worth mentioning.
- : Asks the mod to correct the tags in his last post. There's a preview button for a reason, dude.
- : Unvotes Klee...I wonder who he thought was most scummy at this point? This gets pointed out by Cove in the next post, and answered afterwards, so not a major issue.
- : Responds to Cove that he was gathering his thoughts concerning the next scummiest player after his unvote on Kleedrac. Fair enough. Points out that Klee's FoS when someone is nowhere near a lynch are worthless. I definitely agree with this, as votes put pressure whereas a FoS (when you're not voting for anyone else) are kind of pathetic. Also asks Cove for any links to completed games where he was scum. Shows that he's trying to do some more background reading.
- : Wishes Robo a happy birthday. Good good.
- : Defends his lack of a vote after Cove suggested that unvoting without replacing a vote is scummy, as you're not scumhunting by doing so. Got to agree with AKR on this one, sometimes it takes a while to reassess.
- : Mucked up the tags again. The preview button is your friend!
- : Has been following Cove's latest game, and noticed that he was more active in this one than he was there (he was townie in the game being referenced). Also, votes GroupThink once more, asking him to post something. Definitely fair enough, GroupThink has a grand total of 3 posts up until here.
- : Follows up with a FoS at Robo, for not using his vote (other than the random vote during the RVS) despite having asked plenty of questions and received a lot of answers.
- : Responds favourably to Cove's defence (that he had essentially been "busy" near the front end of that game, but backed it up by showing that he was a lot more active at the end once the tough semester had finished).
- : Objects to being told to tone it down by Robo. So far, I reckon AKR's votes have had the most grounding out of any. Furthermore, he backs up his case by stating that a mere FoS on Robo got a response out of him. Definitely siding with AKR once more on this one.
- : Says "hi" to me.
- : Seems to approve of me saying that my playstyle involves "generally being a pain in the arse". I'm going to hazard a guess that it's because it's part of how he plays: provoke people into a reaction.
- : Discusses game theory concerning Kleedrac's policy on role-claiming. Once more, I find myself in agreement. Interestingly, states that's he's getting a townie read on Kleedrac because of the concerns raised.
- : Defends himself against Vrtra's case. Also asks Vrtra why he felt the need to defend Robo and continues to ask GroupThink for some sort of response.
- : Clarifies something said in his previous post.
- : Answers kindred's question about scum bussing early on.
- : Right, here's the biggy...queue his response to Robo's massive ISO analysis of AKR (who apparently looks scummy to him at this point). Not worth analysing as part of an ISO, there's more on this wall-o-text war later. It's large enough to warrant its own analysis.
- : Corrects a typo.
- : Counters Robo again with more explanations. Yet more on this later.
- : Spots Robo's baited "NFTOVABC" trap and asks Robo what it means.
- : Wishes me luck with my exams. For those vaguely interested, they're going okay (as expected) so far...got two more to come this approaching week, so apologies in advance if I'm a little inactive.
- : Defends himself once more against Robo.
- : Defends himself once more against Robo.
- : Defends himself once more against Robo, and asks Robo who else he thinks is scum.
- : Asks for a prod on GroupThink and Kindred.
- : Moves on from Robo and responds to those who have managed to get a word in edgeways. Apparently has a town read on Robo despite the arguments between them due to the emotional attachment behind them. Not quite sure what to make of that, but it raises a point I'm still pondering. AKR asks Remy if she's willing to back up her suspicions with a vote, which is certainly fair enough. ARK questions Vrtra about his latest post, wondering why he's asking others to do work for him, on the basis that it's trickier to do an analysis if you already know the others' alignments. Also asks Robo what "NFTOVABC" means once more, as it wasn't answered earlier.
- : Asks me and Kindred for a more in-depth post. This in-depth enough for you?
- : After Vrtra's response to his last post, AKR basically re-iterates his last statement, wondering why Vrtra isn't willing to analyse it. Works for me.
- : Cue round #2 of Robo vs. AKR, ding ding! Luckily, it's not walls of text this time...Basically, he's getting annoyed by Robo's arrogance.
- : Still has no idea what "NFTOVABC" means (I was still confused at this point). Has a further dig at Robo.
- : Adds that ICs shouldn't put others down. Something I certainly agree with.
- : Quotes the "Being a Good IC" page on the wiki. Interesting that he doesn't make any comment about having the "NFTOVABC" acronym explained (at last)...
- : Response to GT's obscure post. Again, I think this is worthy of its own separate topic, so more on this later.
- : Asks for general input on a number of questions (two of three concerning GroupThink) from myself, Kindred and Kleedrac. Big post coming your way.
- : Asks Robo why he thinks GroupThink is town when Robo responded to his last question.
- : Calls Robo out for answering a question not addressed to him (something that Robo was accusing AKR of). One very valid point right there.
- : Tries to draw an end to round #2 of Robo vs. AKR.
- : Follows up with a look at Robo's P#173, which he didn't spot a second ago. Round #3?
- : Asks Cove to backup his view on GroupThink with a link to a game. Perfectly reasonable. I can't say how hard that sort of evidence is to find, as I haven't looked in to it myself.
- : Asks for more info regarding Robo's view on why GroupThink is town.
- : Agrees with Remy that a townie who's not posting is only one step from scum.
- : Kleedrac's vote put GroupThink at L-1, so he asks for a roleclaim from GroupThink. Justifyable, though at this point no one else has expressed an interest in voting for GroupThink, so perhaps a bit early?
- : Asks for no one to hammer until GroupThink claims...could be a while, at his current rate of posting. Still, a fair statement, and one that I agree with.
Conclusions
: My overall view on AKR currently is townie. He's defended himself well (Robo's constant attacks being a prime example), put up a good few cases (even his first vote had some sort of reason), picked up on small details and asked for more detail where needed. Everything a townie should be doing. Even in the Robo vs. AKR section, he responds well to Robo's accusations. Again, more on that later, though...
AKR puts a lot of pressure in to getting people to vote for GroupThink...if GroupThink flips townie (after the usual roleclaim and defence and a hammer by someone else), is all that pressure justified? Personally, I reckon so...it removes someone who a good number think is scum (or lurking townie) from the equation, and we have a heck of a lot of material to go on regarding it. As stated by a number of others, a lurking townie is only one step up from scum.
He seems to have the town's best interests in mind, and would be doing everything that I would were I not as busy with exams and whatnot. If AKR is scum, he's doing a damned good job of hiding it.
Questions
: @AKR: Based on your actions so far, I have a couple questions for you that I'd like answering (as well as any comments on my ISO of you):- Why did you not react to the revelation of what "NFTOVABC" meant? Have you seen this sort of behaviour (leaving random acronyms in the text) before in any of your previous games? If so, can you provide links?
- Assuming that GroupThink is scum and someone hammers him (after a roleclaim), who would your suspicions lie with as being scum (either through defending him, not voting him until late on, responses to thoughts on GroupThink, or whatever)?
- After GroupThink (who you're clearly certain is scum, or a distracting townie), before we know whether he's townie or not, who do you think is his scumbuddy? i.e. Who is the second scummiest player?
- : First post, quite late in...people are already starting to point fingers at this point. Answers Robo's questions, yet I'm not seeing anything from her responses. To be fair, she's a newbie, but you can't learn if you don't get stuck in and give it your all.
- : Answers AKR's question on her answers to Robo's questions...if that makes any sense. My thoughts on her answer is that being reserved doesn't do anything to help you learn. You can watch others play in any game you like, but you won't learn about playing if you don't try to make your opinions known. If you don't know what anything means, or aren't sure why someone has a case on someone else: ask. It's what the SEs/ICs are here for, and a good reason to have newbie games for people to play through before diving in to the more brutal world of the rest of the forum.
- : Replies (nigh on instantly, relative to post density so far) to AKR's statement about her lurking. Answers in here (to questions that were asked a while ago) are relatively lacking in insight. For example, role-claiming doc/cop when at L-1 (if you
are
the doc/cop) is a standard. Lying to try to save yourself from a NK (night kill) is counter-productive, as it makes any future investigation results you get to be put under serious scrutiny. Being the doc and claiming vanilla is a touch more controversial, as you know no one can protect you from an inevitable NK if the mafia find out. However, it does mean that the town shouldn't lynch you (or at least reconsider it), giving them a chance to try to find some scum with that lynch instead.
- : A bit of real analysis at last and after much prompting for it. For now, I'm putting that down to general newbieness (i.e. not sure what to make of things), but it's good to see that you're capable of voicing your opinions on others. Looking at your views, I'd have to say I find your one on Cove a bit interesting. I can see that you're not keen to place votes, but given that if no one placed a vote without a solid reason (ever), we'd end up at risk of hitting the lynch deadline much sooner, as votes put pressure on people to defend themselves.
- : Replaces "him" with "her" when referring to Remy in previous post.
- : Acknowledges AKR's explanation of why bussing is possible D1, but provides no more feedback on her revised opinions.
- : Leans towards GT being scum, but bases it on gut feeling. Goes V/LA until the 12th.
Conclusions
: Got a neutral read currently, would definitely like to see a lot
more input in future (once you're back from V/LA), plus a bit more willingness to use your vote.
Questions
: Time to throw some direct questions your way (regardless if D1 ends before you get back from V/LA or not):- Based on recent events, who do you think is scummiest? Why?
- You say you're not sure what to make of the Robo vs. AKR argument...care to take a look at it and make some sort of comment?
- You've currently not voted for anyone (even during the RVS). Why?
- : Vote on Cove (during RVS). I've got nothing here.
- : Also asks Robo to answer his own questions, despite Robo saying that he wouldn't before everyone had answered. Says he's very reserved (by directly quoting Kindred's answer to Robo's question...lazy much?) because he doesn't understand much of what others are saying. Responds to Cove's vote by calling hypocrisy concerning Cove's random vote on Robo (who, I assume, he's played a game with before and didn't find the RQS useful), saying that it stifles discussion.
- : Reckons that people want to drop the hammer before the deadline is imminent...something I have no idea why he said. Also answers Robo's questions in a fairly naff (joke-like) fashion. For someone anti-hypocrite and pro-town-discussion (i.e. anti-stifling it), you're not giving us much to go on.
- : Votes Remy for some reason that I can't quite fathom. Responds to AQUA's answers to Robo's questions by stating the obvious. Also laughs at Kindred's request for proper answers to Robo's questions. Sarcastic comments to Robo's support don't go down well with me.
- : Strange post here...time to break it down:
- "This is absolutely ridiculous." - Your lack of posting is ridiculous.
- "My life won't become any less entertaining because you put "pressure" votes on me. I'm sorry." - I'm assuming you mean that you've got real-life complications that mean you can't respond as much, so the "pressure" votes are irrelevant? If so, why haven't you made this clear before now (or even in this post)?
- "That and I have to get familiarized with all your avatars again because I could've sworn Robo was NKd on his birthday..." - NKed? We're still in D1...
Conclusions
: Inactive, seemingly incoherrent posts and a complete lack of willingness to answer questions...I'm genuinely at a loss as to what you expect us to think. My read is scum, and he'll be hard pushed to get me to think otherwise. My vote would be on him, but as we're waiting for a claim...*shrugs*
Questions
: Oh-so many...- Answer to my comment on P#164?
- Why aren't you trying to defend yourself?
- Roleclaim?
Right...that's about all I've got for now. Took me bloody ages to write this up, so haven't had a chance to get to everyone else yet. Still strongly suspecting scum on GroupThink, so waiting on a claim. Will get to my ISO and thoughts on everyone else tomorrow. If anything's unclear in what I've said so far, feel free to ask and I'll address it when I do the other half.
