Newbie 972 Game over!

[AClockworkMelon]

Hi. I'm AClockworkMelon, commonly known as Clockwork, Melon and ACM. I'm a 20-year old writer living in Phoenix, AZ. In my spare time I play RPGs, tabletop wargames, video games and Mafia. This is my third game on MafiaScum.net and as such I'm one of the game's SEs (trust me, I'm undeserving of the title). I look forward to playing with all of you.

Now get off my lawn.

[AClockworkMelon]

Good job, david. For all the first-time players, he's right. The ISO feature will be an invaluable tool in this game and others.

[AClockworkMelon]

VOTE: Stels

Testing out the new vote tags. Stels seems like as good a target as any.

[AClockworkMelon]

1. Why do you play Mafia?

It keeps the voices at bay.

2. How old are you?

I'm 20-years old.

3. How would you describe your habits of thought? How do you approach problems requiring a creative solution?

Habits of thought? Creative solutions? Is this going to be on the test? I've got no answer.

4. What is your favorite flavor of precious metal, and why?

Copper. Because it's what blood tastes like.

5. How would you approach this game as town? As scum?

Well, I

am

town, so I'd approach the game like I am right now. If I were scum I'd want you to think I was town so I'd probably approach it identically.

6. Are you nervous?

No. Are you?

7. What is the airspeed velocity of a coconut-laden swallow?

Oh, great. Monty Python quotes.

"WHAT- is your favorite color?"

Am I one of the cool kids now?

[AClockworkMelon]

Yes, copper's precious, damn it.

[AClockworkMelon]

What is your native language?

Romulan. I picked up English in high school.

[AClockworkMelon]

By the way, I got a question: under our usernames and above our avatars there is a title, how does it work and how does it change? I'm just curious since there happen to be a lot of them, such as Tourist or Goon, etc.

Most of the titles are gained by posting moar. So post moar.

[AClockworkMelon]

Decptive would mean that I was lieing since none of my answers are lies then I can't be deciving you

You can be deceptive without explicitly lying.

[AClockworkMelon]

i suppose but i still dont see how my answeres wer deceptive

Oh don't worry, I'm sure he'll be along to say my answers were uninformative as well.

[AClockworkMelon]

Yes, I avoided question three. I came right out and said "I've got no answer." Frankly, the question and whatever answer I gave were of little consequence. The goal is to get us talking, which is what we're doing. But to think that I was being deliberately deceptive by pointedly announcing that I was skipping the question is laughable.

[AClockworkMelon]

The accusation against you, that you're being overly careful with your words to avoid letting something slip, implies camouflage, concealment, propaganda, etc.

[AClockworkMelon]

I'd also like to bring to the rest of the game's attention that by asking us questions Neto is capable of keeping us on the defense and avoid providing information himself. True, he'll eventually answer his own questions but only after we have. In Texas Hold 'Em it's always preferable to go last.

[AClockworkMelon]

You hear that, Neto? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

[AClockworkMelon]

That you pose questions at the beginning of every game regardless of alignment is irrelevant. Either way, it always leaves you with a distinct informational advantage.

[AClockworkMelon]

lol

[AClockworkMelon]

False point, aoboco. Neto wasn't conceding that his questions were random, only that they might appear so at first glance.

That being said, I don't think Holy was being deceptive.

[AClockworkMelon]

Are you voting for Neto because you think he's scum or because he's frustrating you?

[AClockworkMelon]

Do you know what random means? That vote for him was not random.

[AClockworkMelon]

I'm not saying that Neto's method is scummy, but it's a definite attempt to control things and, as I said, gives him a constant informational advantage. Given that we don't know if he's scum or town, we can't allow him to have advantages like this. I'm speaking hyperbolically, mostly, the advantage gained by answering last is minimal, but I do think it exists.

That being said, I think Holy's reaction has been pretty emotional. More a newb tell than a scum tell IMO.

[AClockworkMelon]

@Bigcheese - Based on what you know about MafiaScum, how do you think scum behavior might differ between the early and late game?

@Holycon - He was performing his function as an IC. He's here to help new players.

[AClockworkMelon]

Don't sweat it.

[AClockworkMelon]

Btw, I'd like to thank everyone who's participated in the thread so far for all the activity. I love games with lots of activity. Games with nothing happening are boring.

[AClockworkMelon]

Holycon, suppose someone in the game suggests a strategy: All habitual lurkers are to be lynched indiscriminately. They explain that they can't allow a precedent of tolerating consequence-free lurking? Would you support such a strategy?

[AClockworkMelon]

EBWOP (punctuation edit):

Holycon, suppose someone in the game suggests a strategy: All habitual lurkers are to be lynched indiscriminately. They explain that they can't allow a precedent of tolerating consequence-free lurking. Would you support such a strategy?

[AClockworkMelon]

Keep in mind that only a day has passed since the start of the game. I'm definitely giving Uite the benefit of the doubt. Some posters will only post once a day or so- but as long as their posts have content it's all good.

[AClockworkMelon]

I don't think it's possible to criticize the lack of content of posts so far. There's nothing to go on in Day One and so we have to come up with what we can.

[AClockworkMelon]

ACM:

I'm wondering if this is intentional or does he not have enough time to post much at all.

I have plenty of time to post. I hope to be one of the game's most active players (you can hold me to that as the game progresses). If you're referring to the last ten hours or so, I was asleep. If you're referring to my activity earlier in the day, I was being as active as I could.

ACM: Your posts seem like you're holding back something. Is there something you'd like to share? Something you're pondering? I could be wrong about that.

I have a few notes on the game, but I feel that they're incomplete until everyone in the game has become active. For all we know the player who hasn't confirmed is one of the scum and he's getting a free ride to Day 2 by being absent from the meat of Day 1's discussion.

[AClockworkMelon]

Woa. Take the time to read the page and make a post and a dozen other posts pop up!

[AClockworkMelon]

Concerning Neto and Holy's discussion about 'acting out' and provocative probing: Provocation is, IMO, one of the best ways to bait scum into making tells.

[AClockworkMelon]

h, there really hasn't been much to say =/ I see some people as more suspicious than others, but other than that, there hasn't really been much to indicate someone as scum.

You might not get it. In Day 1 we have nothing to go on but the little suspicions. If you're suspicious, by all means, pursue those suspicions. Don't just reassure us that they're not worth mentioning.

[AClockworkMelon]

ACM: There's a simple reason for that. When people defend themselves, they tend to use emotion rather than logic and end up saying what they're actually thinking rather than what they want to say.

I know. I'd just rather not coach the scum in our game.

[AClockworkMelon]

You have far more experience than I do so I'll take your word for it.

[AClockworkMelon]

@Holy - Based on what you know about MafiaScum, how do you think scum behavior might differ between the early and late game?

[AClockworkMelon]

I've gotta say, ACM, I like the quote in your siggy.

Thanks, so do I.

ACM:

You're a helpful person, and seem to understand why behavior isn't scummy, but I can't actually recall a time when you voiced who you thought was scummy, and why. Of course, I could be wrong here. Anyone feel free to bring up an example that proves me wrong, as I would love it. My gut reaction is that you're a townie.

ACM: Your posts seem like you're holding back something. Is there something you'd like to share? Something you're pondering? I could be wrong about that.

I have a few notes on the game, but I feel that they're incomplete until everyone in the game has become active. For all we know the player who hasn't confirmed is one of the scum and he's getting a free ride to Day 2 by being absent from the meat of Day 1's discussion.

More than one of you is curious about my thoughts so I'm going to go ahead and post my profiles. These are partial character profiles, not a list of people I find scummy.

Holy

Emotional
Dodges questions
States that she does not support Lynch All Lurkers
States that she believes Scum are inactive in the early game

Neto

Always calm
Tends towards control

Aobaco

Switches sides
Passive

Cheese

Not very active
States that he believes scum tend to become more aggressive in the endgame

David

Does not support Lynch All Lurkers in noob games.

[AClockworkMelon]

Sigh. I should really preview my posts. EBWOP (punctuation, phrasing and consistency issues):

Character Profiles

Holy

Emotional
Dodges questions
States that she does not support Lynch All Lurkers
States that she believes scum are inactive in the early game

Neto

Always calm
Tends towards control

Aobaco

Switches sides
Passive

Cheese

Not very active
States that he believes scum tend to become more aggressive in the endgame

David

States that he does not support Lynch All Lurkers in noob games

[AClockworkMelon]

@Holy - Suppose I was modding a Mafia game and I told the players that they could not scumhunt through provocation probing. How do you think the town should proceed to discover the scum amongst them?

[AClockworkMelon]

@Clockwork: What are you thougths on UTIE and stels (i think i spelt there names right)?

At the moment I am completely indifferent in regards to both of those players.

[AClockworkMelon]

I think we should either keep doing the provocative prodding, or

just not lynch

.

Emphasis mine.

Are you aware of how absurdly horrible of an idea that is?

[AClockworkMelon]

@Clockwork: I thought we were done with this probing stuff but anyways ill answer anyways but this is the last i want to be asked about my thoughts on probing

Who said we were done with it? The consensus has been that probing is the most effective tool we have for finding scum.

through talking and converseing about the game asking questions but not being hurtful i guess

I don't understand the difference between this and what we were and are doing. Can you explain the difference for me?

but i want to clarify with you clockwork that when they asked a similier quetions i said that i dont have a probelm with probing what i had a problem with was teh constant POKEING at mean there doing its like pokeing at a continually festering wound you guys have had me so worked up over just a game in the last day i have felt compleatly disrespected, offended and ganged up on some of the ways you guy have talked to me have seemed uncalled for maybe i'm just more emotianl them most of you but i have felt singled out because i have said more then others when others are skating by scotch free

You felt completely disrespected and offended? Really?

Really

? I think this is an unreasonable stance to take. Are you aware that by taking such a stance you are only attracting our attention and thus increasing the chances that we will continue to poke at you?

[AClockworkMelon]

Actually, I'm not aware. Please clear that up for me?

Read this. I hope Neto will be along shortly because he explained it to me particularly well in

my

first game.

[AClockworkMelon]

LOL.

[AClockworkMelon]

@aoboco - What do you think of my current discussion with Holy?

[AClockworkMelon]

You felt completely disrespected and offended? Really?

Really

? I think this is an unreasonable stance to take. Are you aware that by taking such a stance you are only attracting our attention and thus increasing the chances that we will continue to poke at you?

Yes i felt disrespected and offended did you not see the comment someon made to me saying that the only way my spelling and grammar should be that bad is if i had a problem like dyslexia how would you have taken that if someone had told that to you?

What does any of this have to do with my original question?

@Holy - Suppose I was modding a Mafia game and I told the players that they could not scumhunt through provocation probing. How do you think the town should proceed to discover the scum amongst them?

[AClockworkMelon]

beacause that was part of the whole thing the probing the pressing the pokeing at me and its been continual you guys havnet stopped i feel like i'm hitting my head aginst a brick wall when i talk to you I think aoboco has found the right way of frasing it interigation is better then a delibrate probing you guys seem like you found the most excitable person you could and now are just trying to see if you can make me explode

Uite's unnecessary comment on your spelling and grammar was not an example of probing. Neto and I are the ones who have been probing you. I don't think we've been rude or disrespectful at all.

[AClockworkMelon]

Don't you think that the scum will stress out when we lynch them? Does that mean we should just leave them alone instead of stressing them out? I really fail to see why you're letting the game get to you. I'm completely emotionally detached from the game and I assume that most of the other players are, too. Why aren't you?

[AClockworkMelon]

Also, there was a girl in my last game that got emotional and eventually ragequitted. I'm going to tell you exactly what I told her: If you're so upset about us focusing on you, why don't you try to scumhunt yourself and give us new targets?

[AClockworkMelon]

so your saying you think I'm scum?

Let's say, for the sake of argument that we

do

think you're scum. How do you respond?

[AClockworkMelon]

Thats your perogative

It's my prerogative? As in that's my business? Isn't it your business whether I think you're scum or not? I mean, we

are

on the same team, right? Right?

[AClockworkMelon]

I'm leaving for a while to hang out with friends. I'll be sure to try to return to the thread before going to sleep.

[AClockworkMelon]

He's buddying up to me right now because I'm the main driving force behind the town.

Can you cite an example of my buddying with you?

He's also smelling fresh blood where Holycon is concerned, which is why he is much more dogged in his pursuit of her than I am. Further, if you notice, he's mentioned very little of substance while still trying to drive our attentions towards Holycon.

I'm not pursuing her nor would I support a Holy lynch. I think she's town.

David

States that he does not support Lynch All Lurkers in noob games

Is that all you found on me?

Yes.

OH. I see now. Alright, yeah, no lynching is bad d:
Then continue the prodding, I think.

Why not continue prodding/probing yourself? Don't just sit back and let others do it for you.

I am in complete agreement.

[AClockworkMelon]

Holycon might be a very defensive townie, but the possibility that she is scum still remains. Women are good liars, so she may mislead us
into thinking she could be a townie by being emotional and causing us to think she is a townie.

Ignoring the point that scum often slip while emotional, what kind of relationship do you think exists, if any, between emotion and scum?

I'm going to ignore the sexism.

[AClockworkMelon]

Why would you rather wait "to see what comes out of this" instead of acting?

[AClockworkMelon]

Uite was on for a while a moment ago (reading the new posts, I assume) but neglected to post.

You said "Then again, this is just a theory. We'll just have to see what comes out of this game later on." I initially interpreted that to mean that you would wait for others to potentially confirm your hunch. Given your response, I'll for now assume that that interpretation is incorrect.

[AClockworkMelon]

And act doesn't mean vote, in case you incorrectly assumed that was my meaning.

[AClockworkMelon]

I changed my mind that time. Instead of waiting for others to confirm, I'm now waiting for their reactions.

Your explanation is accepted.

@holycon: I'd like to offer my apologies. I truly did not mean to offend. To me rudeness means to state the point clearly and directly, without the limitations or ambiguity imposed by courtesy. If someone takes offense to that, I am sorry, but I believe that in the grand scheme of things it is better to be direct and than to dance around the issue without really addressing it. While I feel strongly about the matter discussed, I concede it is not beneficial for our game to dwell on it. Therefore I hope you will accept my apology, and I will be more careful in the future.

I know that this wasn't directed at me but I'm glad that you're apologizing.

@AClockworkMelon: I've ben on for a while now reading, reviewing and analysing in order to compose this post. In total, it took about two hours, and I wanted to put all this out before participating in your conversation.

Your explanation is accepted.

ACLockworkMelon:

So far, you have mostly been on holycon's case, and you seem to have concluded she's good. With all the other discussion going on, who do you find suspicious, or rather, who would you like to see more pressure on?

You, Cheese, Neto and the replacement.

[AClockworkMelon]

2) It's not really quite right to suspect the more experienced players

because they have more experience

. The roles are handed out without regard to how many games a person's played - that means that while we may be better at hiding our alignment, you shouldn't suspect us just because we're experienced. There are plenty of other reasons to find us scummy, though.

I agree with this.

3) ACM: Mostly just in your picking up on the Holycon questioning with me. It seemed desgined to curry favor with me. I could be wrong.

If you interpreted my actions as an attempt to "curry favor with" you, I find your ability to accurately interpret player motives suspect.

[AClockworkMelon]

Like I said, I could be wrong. We're still at a very low-information stage of the game. But, I'm leaning towards you as scum right now.

I'd also like to bring to the rest of the game's attention that by asking us questions Neto is capable of keeping us on the defense and avoid providing information himself. True, he'll eventually answer his own questions but only after we have. In Texas Hold 'Em it's always preferable to go last.

That you pose questions at the beginning of every game regardless of alignment is irrelevant. Either way, it always leaves you with a distinct informational advantage.

lol

Your stated reasoning for finding me scummy, the idea that I was attempting to buddy up with you, is ridiculous.

[AClockworkMelon]

@David - Regarding Holycon, Stels and I have differing opinions.

I think Holy's reaction has been pretty emotional. More a newb tell than a scum tell IMO.

It could be a mask that Holycon is trying to hide behind, or any other person. Then again, this is just a theory.

What do you think?

[AClockworkMelon]

And you can agree with someone concerning one point while disagreeing with them concerning another.

[AClockworkMelon]

You've seen Cheese browsing the forum, Holy? He needs to get back into the game immediately. Lurking doesn't help us at all.

[AClockworkMelon]

Active lurking would be if he posted to keep us placated while saying nothing of value.

[AClockworkMelon]

I think.

[AClockworkMelon]

No, it's not.

A subset of lurking is the so-called "active lurking", where a player posts in the thread but without making any contribution to the progress of the game. Their posts may be minimal in length, off-topic, or merely parroting what other players have already said.

[AClockworkMelon]

No, it doesn't mean both. I just posted the definition.

[AClockworkMelon]

While I'm aware that there could be special circumstances with Cheese, keep in mind that he's only posted a handful of times throughout the thread. So even when he

was

active he wasn't posting nearly enough. The active players have set a standard of activity that he is failing to meet. I'm not calling for his replacement or anything serious like that, just expressing disappointment.

[AClockworkMelon]

I was talking about Uite, actually. But you're otherwise correct.

[AClockworkMelon]

Holycon, you seemed against lynching lurkers earlier but now you're the first to vote for one. Can you explain that?

Uite, if you don't think anything worth discussing has transpired, why don't you start a discussion of your own?

[AClockworkMelon]

It's not about lynching the lurker its about maybe putting some pressure on him that maybe he will see fit to post

Your vote is a statement of intent to lynch. Just by posting that your maneuver is essentially a bluff your vote loses all meaning.

[AClockworkMelon]

That depends. Do you think that we should Lynch All Liars or should that be handled on a case-by-case basis, too?

[AClockworkMelon]

Holycon

: For now, people are thinking that you are just a very emotional townie. What I want to know is WHY people think you are a townie? Can't scum be emotional as well?

Can you cite an example of Holycon behaving like scum?

[AClockworkMelon]

Not that I can think of any. I just want to know, what makes you think she is a townie? Is there solid evidence that she is a townie?

Behavior is the most solid form of evidence we have in this game. If she isn't behaving like scum (and you just said that you can't think of an instance in which she was) then she is behaving like town. That's likely why people think she's town.

[AClockworkMelon]

True, but I wasn't commenting about any lack of content per se. What I meant was that relatively,

considering the huge amount of posts that have been made

, little has been said. For a game in it's first 24 hours I would expect about that amount of information or analysis. What did trouble me was the

volume

it's embedded in. If it keeps up like that it will get tedious sifting through it all trying to find something useful.

A) You identified a problem that somebody had with your play which led them to suspect you.

Someone suspected Uite? Who?

C) You addressed that concern from two separate angles to allay the poster and encourage them to trust you.

What are the 'two separate angles' that Uite addressed the 'concern' from?

D) You made a promise of future action which is different from the behavior complained of.

What was Uite's promise of future action?

[AClockworkMelon]

True, but I wasn't commenting about any lack of content per se. What I meant was that relatively,

considering the huge amount of posts that have been made

, little has been said. For a game in it's first 24 hours I would expect about that amount of information or analysis. What did trouble me was the

volume

it's embedded in. If it keeps up like that it will get tedious sifting through it all trying to find something useful.

You, Stels and Holycon posted light attacks.

Can you cite an example of the 'light attack' from me directed at Uite that provoked the quoted (and super-duper brilliant with sprinkles on top awesome) post?

He responded by clarifying his point and implying that he would be more active in the future (If you couple this with the post prior to the one I quoted, anyway)

So what you're saying is that his 'promise of action' wasn't included in the amazing coup de grâce post?

C) You addressed that concern from two separate angles to allay the poster and encourage them to trust you.

What are the 'two separate angles' that Uite addressed the 'concern' from?

The main thrust was his lack of posts and his claim that there wasn't much to comment on.

That's a claim and counter-claim. I asked what two separate angles Uite addressed my 'concern' from.

You said that I was attempting to buddy up with you and that is why you thought I was scum. Following your logic, shouldn't we think that you are scum because of your attempt to buddy up with Uite? Can you explain that contradiction, especially given how you are incapable of providing a cite of my buddying up with you?

[AClockworkMelon]

VOTE: Netopalis

[AClockworkMelon]

You were an IC in the other game I played, too. I don't remember you pronouncing anyone as a Golden Child as part of your job function in that game. A shrug and a wave of the hand doesn't do anything for me. It's too bad you can't approach my concerns with as much grace and sophistication as you claimed Uite did.

[AClockworkMelon]

Point 3: Buddying from ACM:

Actually, I'm not aware. Please clear that up for me?

Read this. I hope Neto will be along shortly because he explained it to me particularly well in

my

first game.

You

did

explain it particularly well to me in my first game. Isn't explaining things your job?

@Clockwork: I thought we were done with this probing stuff but anyways ill answer anyways but this is the last i want to be asked about my thoughts on probing

Who said we were done with it? The consensus has been that probing is the most effective tool we have for finding scum.

I think that most people who play this game know that probing is the most effective tool we have for finding scum. Are most people buddying up with you?

Concerning Neto and Holy's discussion about 'acting out' and provocative probing: Provocation is, IMO, one of the best ways to bait scum into making tells.

Ditto.

You have far more experience than I do so I'll take your word for it.

Another reference to your IC status.

@Holy - Based on what you know about MafiaScum, how do you think scum behavior might differ between the early and late game?

(Almost directly taken from some of my initial questions, albeit switched around a bit. Definitely along the vein of stuff that I'd ask.)

What, are you jealous that someone else is using a method similar to yours or something? Get over it.

Neto

Always calm
Tends towards control

The bit about "Tends towards control" is a negative point, Neto. Do you even remember my rather pointed criticism of you from the beginning of the game? It centered around your attempts to control things.

And that's just the stuff that I was able to find on a cursory search. Do you still feel that the argument about you buddying up to me is meritless?

Why yes, I do.

[AClockworkMelon]

So, if it's true, it's not buddying?

Is it buddying if the praise is misplaced? Like your praise of Uite?

@Clockwork: I dont think Neto is budding up to Utie I think he's just point out that a few thing about Utie that he liked

So Neto is capable of pointing out things that he likes and it doesn't qualify as buddying but I'm incapable of doing the same? Sorry, that's a contradiction. He's as capable of being scum as anyone else. You're blinded by his shiny IC badge.

[AClockworkMelon]

Right, my point wasn't that Uite has contributed a lot, just that he has the potential to do so. And yes, telling Aoboco that I can explain it better is indeed my job, but looking through ACM's posts, he does that sort of thing with a surprising frequency.

Can you cite any more examples of my telling Aoboco that you can explain something better? Can you cite any examples of me telling

anyone

that you can explain something better? You cited one so far. If that qualifies as 'surprising frequency' to you, then you must be easily surprised.

[AClockworkMelon]

I think that Holycon's point was that neither of us were buddying.

Seeing the post she made directly after this one, I see that that is the case.

[AClockworkMelon]

I also told Neto that you pointing out his IC ability's i not budding up to him

I see that now.

[AClockworkMelon]

My vote on Neto stands. I think his IC badge looks like it has some scum on it.

[AClockworkMelon]

Character Profiles

Holy

Emotional
States that she does not support Lynch All Lurkers
States that she believes scum are inactive in the early game
Dislikes conflict and attempts to mediate it

Neto

Always calm
Tends towards control
Inaccurately interprets player motives
Contradicts himself
Buddies with players

Aobaco

Switches sides
Passive

Cheese

Lurker
States that he believes scum tend to become more aggressive in the endgame

David

States that he does not support Lynch All Lurkers in noob games

Stels

States that he believes emotion is used by scum to appear innocent

[AClockworkMelon]

You have made 81 posts in this game, ACM. Of those 81 posts, 13 either reference me in a positive light or pick up on a line of questioning that I had previously started. That's a bit more than 1/5th. Now, do I think that this is a huge point? No. Do I think that it's a completely insignificant one? No. I just think that it's something which makes me suspect you early on. I am by no means set in stone on this.

This is a much more solid response. However, by including posts that "pick up on a line of questioning that [you] had previously started" you are inflating your numbers unrealistically. Take a step back for a moment and consider that. Really? This is a game of conversation and discussion.

Someone

has to start the discussion- that person just so happened to be you this time. You, the person who started that questioning, aren't significant- what's significant is the content of those lines of questioning.

[AClockworkMelon]

your charicter profiles really shows whos been active though under david i would have wrote Helpful MAYBE TOOOOO helpful lol

Yes, the amount of detail each person receives in my profile is more or less proportional to their level of activity. Why do you feel that David is too helpful?

[AClockworkMelon]

...and this is why I don't put a huge amount of stock into it. It's the fact that you were against me when I started, working with me when I thought you were town and then attacked me again when I started thinking that you were scum that makes me tend to keep thinking that you're scum.

As you can see, the approximate number of pirates has steadily gone down since the 16th century while the average global temperature has increased.
Surely the cause of global warming is the loss of our pirate population!

Correlation is not causation.

I was against you in the beginning because that was when the random questions and your refusal to answer them was still relevant to the discussion. It lost relevance and the discussion moved on and my position on you mellowed. Then you declared that you thought I was scum. I didn't assault you in response to that. I addressed your problems with me and moved on. But now you're behaving in a way that I think is contradictory with your previously stated stance towards me and I'm making a case.

[AClockworkMelon]

well what I mean is any post of his with any substance really to them have only been explaning points of the game which is great but there isnt much else hes a few smaller posts and a few suspicion post but mostly just informative not saying it makes him scum but i thought it was important enough to point out

This is especially true given that he popped in to mention that nothing of substance had taken place rather than creating something of substance.

[AClockworkMelon]

what is the reason for this i dont see it meaning anything to the game am i missing somthing

It's an analogy.

[AClockworkMelon]

Correlation may not prove causation, but it can cause us to examine more closely the correlation to determine if causation is also present. Every time that my dog decides to poop in the house, I get a strangely unpleasant odor coming from the room containing the offending fecal matter. I can't absolutely prove that my dog is the cause of this; it could be that methane secretions from the atmosphere have merely decided to group together and waft in through an open window. However, when dealing with various possible scenarios, one should always look for the simplest explanation. Occam's Razor.

I provided what I feel is a sufficient explanation for my pattern of behavior. A city representative has just arrived at your home and told you that a burst pipeline is creating a foul smell throughout the neighborhood.

[AClockworkMelon]

Who do you think is scum?

My vote for you wasn't arbitrary.

[AClockworkMelon]

[AClockworkMelon]

@Clockwork: you were pretty calm throughout the game, but when Neto started to question your alignment, why did you lose your cool? In my eyes, you were a bit emotional.

Intensity ≠ Emotion

I can assure you I have been calm, collected and unemotional. Neto didn't seem emotional to me.

[AClockworkMelon]

^ is that an eye roll

Yes.

[AClockworkMelon]

This is your first online game. I think you'll find our tone typical. Neither of us seemed to be acting with any particular desperation.

[AClockworkMelon]

So do I.

I doubt we'll here from Cheese again. And if we do, it'll likely be a promise to read the thread and report his findings but I find it doubtful that he's read the thread up to this point and I find it even more doubtful that he'd be willing to read the entire thing if he does return.

[AClockworkMelon]

I wish we had post numbers

Agreed. First thing I noticed when I was viewing player ISOs.

The Neto buddying argument is boring. The OMGUS that spawned from it isn't.

It wasn't OMGUS. Neto based his argument against me on the idea that I was buddying up with him. He proceeded to do just that with Uite, a player who had his vote on him.

ACM is very very very vague on profiling ikd. This is concerning.

My profile of David is vague because I have nothing else to go on. My profile of Stels is just as vague.

[AClockworkMelon]

aoboco was originally skirting by with the bare minimum. Now she's not in the game at all. Her vote removal would have been fine if she'd followed it up with

something

. I'm more concerned with her activity than her alignment at this point, given that it's impossible to determine the latter without the former.

[AClockworkMelon]

He behaved similarly on page 14.

[AClockworkMelon]

Can you cite an example of Uite saying that you don't answer questions?

[AClockworkMelon]

Uite: My reason for the compliment was simple: Although you hadn't provided much content, you had shown that you were doing two things: 1) Critically thinking your way through the posts and 2) Constructing and publishing your thoughts in a cohesive and logical manner. You probably don't have a lot of skill in scumhunting yet, but it's clear that you have the talents with which to build that skill, and those talents are simply logic and communication.

What do you think of Uite's logic and critical thinking now? Do you think that, as a third party removed from the game, you would appear scummy?

[AClockworkMelon]

Another question: How do you respond to the rest of Uite's concerns?

[AClockworkMelon]

The problem that I had with ACM was not that he was attacking Holycon, it was the fact that it looked like he wanted to basically start tag-teaming attacking her. I would ask a question, she would answer, he would press the same line of questioning further. Not a huge tell, but it does imply, to me, that he thought it was a fairly safe play. Most players don't attack those who are doing the same thing that they're doing.

Can you tell me why you aren't suspicious of Uite for putting pressure on you? I was the first to put pressure on you, so clearly I had dibs.

[AClockworkMelon]

Do you think there's significance in that on two separate occasions you have only thoroughly approached Uite's concerns after he voted for you?

[AClockworkMelon]

What questions would you like me to answer more thoroughly?

This sort of thing is exactly what I was referring to. I gave several different concerns about you, some more serious than others. What you've done now is take the least pressing and most easily remedied among them, while completely ignoring the rest.

Question. You said that I'm not answering them. Ask me one.

Why, when Uite posted a list of concerns did you only respond to one? Why, when Uite pointed out what you were doing did you ignore that concern as well and insist that you respond to a single of his concerns? Do you think that you were merely confirming his accusations? If no, why not?

[AClockworkMelon]

Uite, do you think that being intentionally disingenuous is the same as lying?

[AClockworkMelon]

Holycon, I've noticed you sign in a few times in the last hour. So far it seems like you avoid conflict. Can you explain why someone would do that in a game like Mafia?

[AClockworkMelon]

You're letting something as trivial as

work

get in the way of the game? You could take a hint from Holycon: She plays while she drives.

[AClockworkMelon]

@AClockworkMelon: I don't think so. The thing about being intentionally disingenuous is that you technically still speak the truth, so it can be hard to disprove what you say. Also, because it uses truth, it can be far more convincing and effective at manipulation than an outright lie. It is therefore a much more useful tool for evil, but under the right circumstances for good as well. However, I believe it is less damning than lies, because the truth in it

can

be used as the basis for a good rational decision. Why do you ask?

Had you responded in the affirmative I would've mentioned the Lynch All Liars strategy.

[AClockworkMelon]

@AClockworkMelon: I thought as much. I have explained my stance on Lynch All Liars

Indeed. I had a quote of yours standing by.

@Holycon, please respond to the question I posed further up the page.

[AClockworkMelon]

I'm sorry what was the question i missed it will you quote it for me?

So far it seems like you avoid conflict. Can you explain why someone would do that in a game like Mafia?

[AClockworkMelon]

But if you're afraid to engage in conflict how on Earth do you prosecute scum? I think the way it's helped you in the past is in that you've been able to coast by under everyone's radar.

[AClockworkMelon]

You might as well tell me that you play Warcraft for the farming and upgrading but detest the battles.

[AClockworkMelon]

Uh...It's called tower defense.

I'll bet she plays that while she drives, too.

Actually I'm a Kick ass PVPer and Raider

Yet again, it was just an analogy.

[AClockworkMelon]

And btw, I wasn't talking about WoW. I was referring to the

good

Warcraft games.

[AClockworkMelon]

Uh...It's called tower defense.

I'll bet she plays that while she drives, too.

I've never played tower defense

He, like I, was referring to the

good

Warcraft games.

[AClockworkMelon]

I figured as much.

[AClockworkMelon]

You're the one who started talking in-depth about my analogy.

[AClockworkMelon]

My analogy didn't require an answer. You haven't mentioned the recent exchange between Neto, Uite and myself at all. Thoughts?

[AClockworkMelon]

You're the one who started talking in-depth about my analogy.

You sounded a little defensive there. Whys that?

I didn't sound defensive.

[AClockworkMelon]

3: This whole game isnt about you neto and utie there are other players who deserve to be responded to as well.

The vast majority of the discussion that's taken place since you were last active was between the three of us. Neto now has three votes on him and things are finally heating up. This is probably the most important point of the game so far. Your priorities need adjustment.

the last few pages you have sounded extreamly defensive.

The last few pages I have been the precise opposite of defensive.

[AClockworkMelon]

You're chasing phantoms.

[AClockworkMelon]

and i said they deserved a response do you think they dont and if so why?

Let me get this straight: I'm asking for your response to the discussion at hand and you respond by asking me if I think the discussion warrants a response?

[AClockworkMelon]

No i asked you if the post i commented on first deserved a response you told me i need to get my priorities straight so i was asking you if you thought what i posted on deserved a response

They both deserve responses. I'm not physically restraining you. When I ask you to do something, don't respond by telling me that by asking you to do it I'm preventing you from doing it.

[AClockworkMelon]

Neto you don't seem like the person to "miss" something

I am in total agreement. This was my thought exactly. I give Neto way too much credit to believe that he failed to completely read a post, which is what leads me to think that he's being disingenuous now.

[AClockworkMelon]

also something that doesn't sit right with me is that he hasn't once mention anything about three people vote's on him

@Neto: Whys that why haven't you once addressed that three people are voting you

[AClockworkMelon]

Isn't the statement that you didn't sound defensive a type of excuse. As far as I know, excuses are a sort of

defense

mechanism

Isn't that a contradiction there? ^^That's quite a quick change of heart you had there Holycon.

The two quoted statements by Holycon were each referencing different events. As others have mentioned, three pages is not insignificant.

@Neto: just trying to find some contradictions.

You're also fishing in a bathtub.

I don't really have a response to Cliquey's points.

"He's not really trying."
"Yes I am!"

Etc.

[AClockworkMelon]

What, from your questions, have you learned concerning alignments?

Potentially nothing. I played my first game and did pretty badly (though we managed to win) and was lynched in my second game. Your question was better but I just didn't think of it. I didn't have both of those questions in mind and decide to go with the inferior one or something- I just went with the one that came to me.

You're voting for Neto, most of your questions haven't been to him. They have been about him, but to other people.

Indeed. In fact, at the time that I first voted for him, I don't think I'd asked him

any

questions yet. He behaved in a manner that I found suspicious and so I voted for him.

[AClockworkMelon]

EBWOP: Incomplete thought.

Potentially nothing. I played my first game and did pretty badly (though we managed to win) and was lynched in my second game. I'm attempting to model my behavior on Neto (from my first game) and Debonair Danny DiPietro (from my second game). Even if I'm still making mistakes now I'd like to think I've made an improvement. Your question was better but I just didn't think of it. I didn't have both of those questions in mind and decide to go with the inferior one or something- I just went with the one that came to me.

[AClockworkMelon]

Sorry for having sort of lurked for the past couple of IRL days. My computer crashed and I'm at my brothers. I'll post something substantial tonight.

You guys post a LOT. >2 weeks to deadline and already 20 pages. Anyway...

I posted in my other game tonight and gave a fairly thought out post in there. I plan on posting in here tomorrow, but I made that game priority because its deadline is significantly sooner. I will have a post in here tomorrow though, for sure. Try not to post

too

much more or it'll take longer for me to post because there'll be more to talk about. Not trying to stifle activity, but I'm trying to make the game playable for those of us who aren't as active as the rest.

Holy's right. This is sort of silly.

But David is not the best lynch for today.

[AClockworkMelon]

So you think he's active lurking. Do you think he's scum?

[AClockworkMelon]

Cheese hasn't revealed any actual information about himself, either. Why aren't you voting for Cheese?
Aoboco hasn't been on in four days. Why aren't you voting for him?

[AClockworkMelon]

So you would rather have a game full of lurkers than a game full of active lurkers?

[AClockworkMelon]

I doubt Aoboco will be replaced.

Still, I'd rather vote for someone I think is scum than someone I think is playing anti-town.

[AClockworkMelon]

If someone is being anti-town it means that their actions are hurting the town. It can be from noobishness, negligence or simple poor play. A scum is someone who is on the scum team.

For example: Lurking. While definitely anti-town, I don't think I'd classify it as scummy. It's usually just laziness.

Active

lurking, on the other hand, I find much more suspicious.

[AClockworkMelon]

I'm assuming he forgot to put his vote on me.

[AClockworkMelon]

For one, you guys have posted like the world ends tomorrow or something, so reading, analyzing and then writing up a post on it will take a few hours. It should be against the rules to go from page 13 on the 22nd of June to page 21 on the 24th of June. There is just WAY too much posting going on.

With every post a person makes they're revealing more about themselves. I'm not having a problem keeping up. You are.

Behavior is the most solid form of evidence we have in this game. If she isn't behaving like scum (and you just said that you can't think of an instance in which she was) then she is behaving like town. That's likely why people think she's town.

So you're saying that scum can't behave like town? I disagree; the entire point of the game for the scum is that they behave like townies while slowly trying to kill them off.

If scum play their game perfectly and imitate town perfectly they will win the game. So yes, if a player isn't behaving like scum then he is behaving like town. It is up to the truly town players to spot scummy behavior.

well what I mean is any post of his with any substance really to them have only been explaning points of the game which is great but there isnt much else hes a few smaller posts and a few suspicion post but mostly just informative not saying it makes him scum but i thought it was important enough to point out

And that is correct, most of my posts have been like that. That's how I normally am on Day 1.

Are you the same way when you play in non-newb games? You just spend Day 1 creating simple informative posts?

However, would you like to have an anti-town player in Lylo? I wouldn't. If they're not going to help the town, lynch them early (of course giving priority to more scummy people) in order to make sure that you have good, active, productive discussion in Lylo.

So you're suggesting that we lynch you?

[AClockworkMelon]

My read of Cliquey as town is based on the fact that he was willing to basically dive in and tick everybody off. It shows that he's engaging the game from the perspective of a townsperson and that he's not too worried about getting counterattacked. Of course, that was only one post, indeed, and it's not a remarkably strong read. It is, however, a read, so I threw it out there.

I'm getting a town reading on Cliquey for the same reasons.

[AClockworkMelon]

Horrible response, IMO.

Stels, are you capable of adequately explaining why you're more concerned with what we think of you than lynching me, someone you think to be scum?

[AClockworkMelon]

@AClockworkMelon: The way you dealt with holycon during and following your discussion about WoW was less than graceful. You seemed unnecessarily hostile. For someone who's claimed to play emotionally detached, that seemed pretty emotional.

I really don't know what you mean. Are you referring to these posts?

He, like I, was referring to the

good

Warcraft games.

I figured as much.

You're the one who started talking in-depth about my analogy.

The vast majority of the discussion that's taken place since you were last active was between the three of us. Neto now has three votes on him and things are finally heating up. This is probably the most important point of the game so far. Your priorities need adjustment.

You're chasing phantoms.

Let me get this straight: I'm asking for your response to the discussion at hand and you respond by asking me if I think the discussion warrants a response?

They both deserve responses. I'm not physically restraining you. When I ask you to do something, don't respond by telling me that by asking you to do it I'm preventing you from doing it.

I was in the same state of mind as I was making those posts as I have been throughout the rest of the game. If I sounded defensive or emotional there's not much I can tell you except that that's not reflective of what my attitude was at the time. Immediately after those posts I had an exchange with Holycon:

Neto you don't seem like the person to "miss" something

I am in total agreement. This was my thought exactly. I give Neto way too much credit to believe that he failed to completely read a post, which is what leads me to think that he's being disingenuous now.

Neto you don't seem like the person to "miss" something

I am in total agreement. This was my thought exactly. I give Neto way too much credit to believe that he failed to completely read a post, which is what leads me to think that he's being disingenuous now.

Yeah that was somthing that really stuck out to me

Maybe it seemed like it to you but to me the conversation wasn't particularly heated.

Her accusations, if you could call them that, were pretty light and minor, but there must have been something about them annoy you so. What was that?

I don't recall any accusations directed at me by Holycon.

Off-topic: I really wish this forum allowed spoilers so I could cut down on the size of the post.

[AClockworkMelon]

There was something about the wording that seemed off to me, but looking back at the rest of your posts, I see that is how you usually respond.

[AClockworkMelon]

Why are there no more votes on Stels? It's obvious that his priority is avoiding attention instead of finding scum.

My conflict is that I'm confident that you're not both scum but you both seem scummy. At the moment I think you're more scummy than he is and so I'm keeping my vote on you. But if anyone's going to convince me that Stels needs my vote on him, it's probably not going to be you.

[AClockworkMelon]

Because I think you have a higher chance of being scum than the other players at the moment and if you are scum it's in your interest to make Stels look suspicious. So anything you tell me is going to be tempered by my suspicion of you. I'd rather hear a case made on Stels by someone else. That being said, until convinced otherwise, I really think you'd be the best lynch for today.

[AClockworkMelon]

I said that I'm confident you aren't scum together.

I'm going to vote for whichever one of you I think has the highest chance of being scum. If I'm presented with what I feel is compelling evidence that he's more scummy than you I'll vote for him. I don't understand the confusion.

[AClockworkMelon]

Quite the conundrum.

[AClockworkMelon]

Also, along the same vein as points made by Uite and Neto: When you post using proper grammar and spelling you come across as more intelligent than you might otherwise. People are far more likely to listen to the points made by someone they think is intelligent. So it's more than just an issue of readability.

[AClockworkMelon]

I'm going to go on a meta-newbie scum from my last game

Can someone tell me what this means?

[AClockworkMelon]

Indeed. So, if I make the case, will you listen to it?

I never said that I wouldn't listen to any cases you make. I said that anything you say is going to be tempered by my suspicion of you.

[AClockworkMelon]

If "it's probably not going to be you" means it's "incredibly unlikely" to be you, then sure.

[AClockworkMelon]

I'm very patient. For all we know the two AWOL players are the scum.

[AClockworkMelon]

On the other hand, if we get into the last days, we NEED to agree on a lynch.

[AClockworkMelon]

So let's not hurry to a lynch right now, but let's try not to turn this into a 30-page Day 1 on the other hand. (My first game on the site was a total of 30 pages for 3 days, so 30 pages in Day 1 would be a LOT).

I can almost guarantee you we're going to get near 30 pages by the time we start Day 2.

[AClockworkMelon]

In b4 "But you're not posting anything of value".

[AClockworkMelon]

This is the hundredth time you've complained about the number of posts or the low quality of posts. We're familiar with your song and dance. Got anything new for us?

[AClockworkMelon]

FOS

David

David's done little besides stall and when he does surface he only does so to blame us for it. When he's not blaming the rest of the players for his active lurking he's cruising along in safe waters. The ONLY things he's commented on in the last week (besides criticizing us for our activity) have been Stels' horrible response and Holycon's question- both times falling into line with the popular opinion. He's either horrible scum or horrible town.

[AClockworkMelon]

@holycon. I know I've said I'd drop the matter about your language, and while it has been better recently, there are a few things I have to say before I can finally lay it to rest. First, you've been consistently misspelling my username. It's U

i

te, not Ut

i

e. The 'I' goes second, and it's starting to get annoying. Second point: Punctuation is your friend. Many of your posts don't have any punctuation whatsoever. Capital letters, commas and full stops make sentences a lot easier to parse. Third and last point: Remember that English is not my native language, and any deviations from standard writing tend to confuse me. Your help would be greatly appreciated.

I think this is beating a dead horse (except for your request that she spells your name correctly). She seems to have improved quite a bit since Neto brought it up.

[AClockworkMelon]

Hey, DJ. You just replaced into the other game I'm playing in, too. Welcome.

Welcome, Memnon.

[AClockworkMelon]

I think the amount of posts made complaining about the WoW discussion outnumber the number of posts in the discussion itself.

[AClockworkMelon]

UNVOTE: Neto
VOTE: Stels

[AClockworkMelon]

UNVOTE: Stels
I don't want him being hammered before we hear from the two replacements.

[AClockworkMelon]

@imkingdavid: The town needs all the help it can get. There's a nice quote I ran into, unfortunately I can't remember who it's from, but it goes like this:

Mafia is a game of an informed minority versus an uninformed majority. A faction wins when they become the informed majority. Town's object is to become informed (find scum), scum's object is to become the majority (kill town).

Any information you can share is useful, and so far I haven't really seen you bring forth anything

new

. You haven't been informing the majority, which is bad.

I'm stealing that explanation. I think it perfectly describes the game and its dynamic.

[AClockworkMelon]

In the future (before the game has reached 30 pages), if you can't keep up with a game, you should just replace out. Mmmmkay?

[AClockworkMelon]

Great. First I'm conflicted as to whom to vote for amongst Stels and Neto and now I don't know whom to vote for amongst Stels, Neto and David.

[AClockworkMelon]

All right. I'll work on a post and get feedback.

[AClockworkMelon]

Netopalis opened the game with his questions and immediately set about frustrating just about everyone.

Holycon: Your post appeared to be a deliberate attempt to hide something (Subterfuge resulting in an omission).

Really

?

I will answer them once all others have answered and not before.

I'm still going to hold off. At least one of the two have confirmed, and if they do not confirm, we should get replacements in shortly.

Frankly, I got the feeling that he was rather full of himself. He interpreted my actions as an attempt to buddy up with him and he declared himself the "main driving force behind the town" in attempt to make himself seem like an invaluable resource. As Stels pointed outs, he was quite happy to chase Holycon to ground only to immediately jump on anyone else who used similar tactics. Of course, he claimed that he was only pursuing her to begin with, not because he thought she was scum, but because he wanted to see how everyone reacted. Yeah, yeah. And I could claim the same thing.

Neto was making plenty of posts like these early on. Doing well enough.

But soon enough he made this post. I found it more than a bit off. He'd not a few pages earlier claimed that I was attempting to subtly curry favor with him and now he's picked out a teacher's favorite. He says a few questionable things in that post and I start grilling him here. I'd say his style of response starts breaking down here and he backpedals a bit. I respond with this, the post that leads to my vote against him. The conversation continues on back and forth and back and forth for a bit.

More of my thoughts about Netopalis:

I feel that ACM is my best guess at scum at this point. He's buddying up to me right now because I'm the main driving force behind the town. He's also smelling fresh blood where Holycon is concerned, which is why he is much more dogged in his pursuit of her than I am. Further, if you notice, he's mentioned very little of substance while still trying to drive our attentions towards Holycon....Altogether, it looks as if he's an excellent suspect.

I can't point to a single post, it's sprinkled throughout your interactions with me and Holycon a few pages back. It's mainly the fact that you started picking up on the same line of questioning that I was using and the way that you did that. It's a light case, like I said. Buddying up to Uite woud be pointless for me as scum, as he's not in a particular position of power and he doesn't suspect me right now. I'm simply fulfilling my IC function. I'm sorry that it's not as neatly packaged as you'd like, but that's Mafia.

(Really, buddying up to a player you yourself have identified as strong would be pointless? You've got quite a few games under your belt and I can't fathom this statement coming from you.)

This seems to me to be pretty far removed from the truth. ACM was poking holycon, but most of the heat came from Neto. Pure dishonesty if you ask me. Also, player A attacking player B because he's doing more or less the same thing as player A? Arrogant at the very best, trying to frame someone at worst. Then, the comment about buddying up to me. From my experience, that's just plain wrong. I may not be in a particular position of power, but Neto has pointed out, in great detail, why I supposedly have a great potential. Keeping this in mind, buddying to a potentially strong player while he has yet to fulfill that potential is a good way to protect oneself later in the game. Buddying with someone who doesn't suspect you is very beneficial when you're scum and you're in LyLo. I've won many games in RL as mafia casually chatting with the player next to me and keeping him alive for the endgame, without him ever suspecting me. Finally, and I don't have a particular quote for this, I'd like to note that Neto has been very avoidant of any inquiry into him. He doesn't give straight answers, and what he has been saying implies he has a great deal more going behind the scenes. I don't like this obfuscation, as the town always needs more infromation, and he's holding back.

For all of the above:

VOTE: Netopalis

What questions would you like me to answer more thoroughly?

This sort of thing is exactly what I was referring to. I gave several different concerns about you, some more serious than others. What you've done now is take the least pressing and most easily remedied among them, while completely ignoring the rest.

Uite makes his case. He had similar problems with Neto then as he has with KingDavid now. In fact, even as I'm typing this I can't believe that I changed my vote to Stels- maybe KingDavid had a point and the length of the game really

is

a detriment... lol, OK, no, he didn't have a point. But still, in reflection, Neto really did seem suspicious as he went from the previously clear and calm Neto to the scummy Neto being argued more and more narrowly into a corner, point by point.

Alright. Uite does have some decent concern here. When I answered his post, I just looked for my name and answered the top question - I didn't realize at the time that he had asked two. So, yeah. Not intentional.

I find this hard to believe. At the end of that very post, I voted for you and I mentioned it again in my reasons for doing so. I can't image you not being interested in the reasoning behind someone voting for you and therefore missing my request.

For a law student, you really need to work on your reading comprehension.

I have to agree with this assessment he has effectively sidestep any inquiry into him i think anytime i have asked a him a questions he usually answers me with another question instead of just answering me. and from reading the rest of this he has continued to do that

and tbh Neto you don't seem like the person to "miss" something you have yet to miss anything in this game so i think for you that is juts another excuse not to answer someone questions

I am in total agreement. This was my thought exactly. I give Neto way too much credit to believe that he failed to completely read a post, which is what leads me to think that he's being disingenuous now.

So the three of us have all called him out on being disingenuous and things cool down.

He makes his case against Stels here and I think it's a pretty solid one but writing this post has reminded me of just how scummy Neto seems.

[AClockworkMelon]

And what do you mean town dosnt need the help by what you say

your are town

so by helping town wouldent you be helping yourself?

"And what you do mean town doesn't need the help (by/from/with?) what you say? You are town, so by helping town, wouldn't you be helping yourself?"

Of course, it could also be read:

"And what do you mean town doesn't need the help? By what you say, you are town, so by helping town wouldn't you be helping your self?"

But we'll see...

She said, clear as day, "by what you say your [

sic

]

are

town", so your

interpretation

isn't required.

[AClockworkMelon]

So from that I learn that myself and ACM have been on two wagons together.

Man... this really makes me look bad, doesn't it? Oh well. Whatever happens happens.

[AClockworkMelon]

If you hadn't posted anything at all while I was making my case against Neto you probably would have been just fine. I guess I should be glad you decided to become active.

VOTE: imkingdavid

[AClockworkMelon]

2.) Because you've acted very, very scummily.

[AClockworkMelon]

Why should you be glad that I "acted very, very scummily"?

Because I'm glad when I find scum. Aren't you? Maybe in other games.

And please answer number 1.

Number 1 wasn't a question for me to answer.

She said, clear as day, "by what you say your [

sic

]

are

town", so your

interpretation

isn't required.

The belittling tone is not appreciated. Let's try and play the game, not personally attack each other. Even if you didn't mean such a tone, that's what came from it to me, particularly the emoticon and the italics used on "interpretation".

My emoticon carried the same weight as your "Mmmmkay?" to Uite. As for my italicization of "interpretation," that's because it wasn't an interpretation at all. It was a desperate grasp-at-straw argument tossed at Holy to distract us from you.

[AClockworkMelon]

By what I say I am town? When did I say I was town, then? Please give me a quote and/or a link.

Are you kidding me? Whenever anyone posts anything in this game the implication is that they're posting as a pro-town player.

@ACM: Number 1 is asking you for your accusations against me. If you voted me, you better have some. So yes, it is a question for you to answer.

I'll provide a thorough case in just a few minutes. But it's funny that the serial active-lurker of the game is demanding content.

Maybe since it wasn't in question form, you thought I was just giving a fun fact.

Easy, sparky.

Will you please post your reasons for voting me? Even if they're clear as day, it helps with readability and comprehension to have them right there.

Coming right up.

[AClockworkMelon]

One of my first interactions with KingDavid was asking him his opinion of Lynch All Lurkers. Considering he'd lurk throughout most of the game (yes, even during our important WoW discussion), it's no surprise that he thinks policy lynches are bad business.

Active Lurking, on the other hand, is very scummy because it shows that the person is simply trying to coast and appear to be active and protown when no active scumhunting is occuring.

Thanks for the heads up!

For a while he just coasted along in safety, only talking vaguely about theory and game mechanics. Just being a helpful guy. I wasn't the only one to notice.

Never write

anyone

off as town just because they are helpful.

Thanks for the heads up!

David

States that he does not support Lynch All Lurkers in noob games

Is that all you found on me? Seems odd that that's the only thing you have to say about me in 8 pages.

You had barely posted anything of substance before this. Maybe I should have included 'non-contributing player' to my profile of you.

A few days pass and he doesn't post anything except promises to post. Well, he had RL issues do deal with. We all understand that. No biggie. Wait, here he is with is promised post. Can't wait to read what you've got for us:

You guys post a LOT. >2 weeks to deadline and already 20 pages. Anyway...

I posted in my other game tonight and gave a fairly thought out post in there. I plan on posting in here tomorrow, but I made that game priority because its deadline is significantly sooner. I will have a post in here tomorrow though, for sure. Try not to post

too

much more or it'll take longer for me to post because there'll be more to talk about. Not trying to stifle activity, but I'm trying to make the game playable for those of us who aren't as active as the rest.

...

I can understand if you've got problems posting... but you're really just going to complain? Complaints are all you've got to offer us?

Maybe you had a late night and you're feeling cranky. It happens to the best of us. What else have you got?

For one, you guys have posted like the world ends tomorrow or something, so reading, analyzing and then writing up a post on it will take a few hours. It should be against the rules to go from page 13 on the 22nd of June to page 21 on the 24th of June. There is just WAY too much posting going on.

I have been forced to skim due to the

8 new pages

over the past

2 days

(it's unrealistic for me to actually read all of that right now)

I'm not sure I enjoyed having to read a discussion about WoW for the entirety of page 18. And then there's petty argument for a bit of page 19. Can we try to keep playing a game of mafia instead of posting just to post? If you want to talk about WoW, go to some chat room.

We have more than a week to continue and hopefully get some active replacements so we can decide on a lynch. So let's not hurry to a lynch right now, but let's try not to turn this into a 30-page Day 1 on the other hand. (My first game on the site was a total of 30 pages for 3 days, so 30 pages in Day 1 would be a LOT).

I don't mind if people post a lot, I just don't want lots of low quality posts (yes, ACM's inb4 was correct). If they were high quality and productive posts I wouldn't mind as much. But when people go off on tangents about WoW for almost an entire page, that's when you know that the posts are just there to be there.

Maybe if there was something constructive going on in the game I'd comment on it.

it's hard for me to point out anything new (especially when I have 8 pages of catching up to do while posts are still added on in the meantime)

...

But I'll stop complaining. One vote is nothing to worry about, especially during Day 1.

Lol.

Neto is a bit... bare-bones

Lol.

Anyway, let's hope our replacements have something constructive to bring to the table... I'm hungry for something good to talk about.

Lol.

So from that I learn that myself and ACM have been on two wagons together.

Man... this really makes me look bad, doesn't it? Oh well. Whatever happens happens.

You're insinuating that one of us has been following the lead of the other. Considering you're the one who has been, until now, afraid to make waves, I'd say that that happy honor rests snugly on your shoulders. Maybe you're hoping that when you die and flip scum the suspicion will fall on me because we shared votes during various points in the game. Whatever your meaning, my eyeroll just about covers my response.

And what do you mean town dosnt need the help by what you say

your are town

so by helping town wouldent you be helping yourself?

"And what you do mean town doesn't need the help (by/from/with?) what you say? You are town, so by helping town, wouldn't you be helping yourself?"

Of course, it could also be read:

"And what do you mean town doesn't need the help? By what you say, you are town, so by helping town wouldn't you be helping your self?"

But we'll see...

She said, clear as day, "by what you say your [

sic

]

are

town", so your

interpretation

isn't required.

As for my italicization of "interpretation," that's because it wasn't an interpretation at all. It was a desperate grasp-at-straw argument tossed at Holy to distract us from you.

My explanation speaks for itself.

The belittling tone is not appreciated. Let's try and play the game, not personally attack each other.

Given your use of "Mmmmkay?" with Uite, I'd say you don't give a crap about tone. Just another attempt to throw a wrench in our momentum.

But that wasn't her question! At this point I'd like to mention the first rule of holes.

The first rule of holes, KingDavid, is you got to stop digging.

[AClockworkMelon]

Yeah, I don't think so.

[AClockworkMelon]

it's you that looked between the lines and added what you wanted so you could have something other than "active lurking" in your case against me.

First of all, IMKD, don't post something like "Oh, gee, that doesn't look good for me, does it?" unless you're willing to step up and take responsibility for the implication behind that.

I've been thinking and ACM had a nice case on Neto, but he was willing to ditch the whole thing in favor of voting me, simply based on me active lurking

My personal dislike for you might be impeding my judgment.

Never once did I play the women are emotional card, and under no circumstance's do I have to be prepared for or put up with sexism.

im also and emotinal voted i call it being a women lol!

Your dishonesty is making me unhappy.

[AClockworkMelon]

I've been thinking and ACM had a nice case on Neto, but he was willing to ditch the whole thing in favor of voting me, simply based on me active lurking

My personal dislike for you might be impeding my judgment.

Why are you making this personal?

I don't know.

UNVOTE: imkingdavid

[AClockworkMelon]

@Holycon

When you say sexist things, like you did, you do have to prepare for the consequences of that.

[AClockworkMelon]

You were the first to exhibit sexism in the game, holycon. Let's not play the victim.

[AClockworkMelon]

And btw, no, that doesn't excuse sexism from any other players. But it does strip you of any right to complain about it.

[AClockworkMelon]

Do you even realize how hypocritical it is for you to complain about sexism when you were the first to make sexist comments in this thread? Just drop it.

[AClockworkMelon]

Stels says ALL WOMEN LIE

Can you point out to me where in his post he said that "all women lie"?

Ah, just woke up.

So far there have been five active players that I can remember off the top of my head without actually double checking(ACM, Neto, Holy, myself until I left to go bowling, and some of aoboco more recently).

@imkingdavid: I wasn't active for the last 10 hours because I was sleeping and before that I actually hangout with my friends for more than 10 hours a day so I try to be as active as I can.
@Neto: I noticed, by reading through other games where you were a player and a mod (Newbie 973 specifically), in those games you were a bit less formal-like. Why are you more formal-like in this game than in the rest of your games?

My posts may have been a handful, but not much content was posted is true in some way. Then again, it goes for the other players here as well, since not much questioning has been done in their or my direction. ATM, all I can say is that I don't trust anyone since I still can't figure out who might be who. Holycon might be a very defensive townie, but the possibility that she is scum still remains.

Women are good liars, so she may mislead us into thinking she could be a townie by being emotional and causing us to think she is a townie.

I'm mostly suspicious of the more experienced players here (imkingdavid, Clockwork and Neto) since they have the most experience here and don't reveal a lot of information about themselves, making it hard to judge their alignment. Because of this experience under their belts, they can skillfully avoid being seen as scum.
IMO, (this applies to newbies who might be scum), yes they might lurk around and see how this plays out, but since they know who their partner is, they might want to find information about the people who they know are townies less than the actual townies who have no information on others at all.

I've underlined the relevant portion of the quote for you.

[AClockworkMelon]

@Cliquey: for what policy would you like to lynch ACM? I don't see anything about him that requires a policy lynch.

I've wasted time and distracted players from getting things done.

David: Give me 3 suspects and why you suspect them. You keep talking about the game rather than talking about how to advance the game.

[AClockworkMelon]

Neto and Stels are my picks.

[AClockworkMelon]

No sense holding it back: VOTE: Netopalis

[AClockworkMelon]

AClockworkMelon

— So far, you've been on holy, Neto, Stels and ikd's case. What you you think of your cases on them? Also, disregarding our inactive players, you've left Cliquey and me alone. What are your opinions on the both of us?

I'm confident Holy is town. I think Neto is very scummy. I think Stels and IDK are equally scummy- neither as scummy as Neto, however.

You and Cliquey both seem like straight shooters to me. For all I know you're the scum pair, but if I had to make predictions now I'd say you're both town.

[AClockworkMelon]

I'd like to note that I don't think Neto has been leading the game at all, despite his insistence to the contrary.

[AClockworkMelon]

@AClockworkMelon: Your reply to my first question, while useful, wasn't really what I wanted to know. Maybe I should have phrased them differently. What I wanted to know was how you felt about the

cases

you were making, not the people you were making them against. Did you feel they had merit? Were they justified? How much so?.

I felt that had merit and I feel they have merit. Yes, they're justified. Very much so.

[AClockworkMelon]

ACM

If we lynched you....

When we lynch you....

How would you feel?

Indifferent. I'd be more interested in how the game continues to progress after I'm dead.

[AClockworkMelon]

Is there a point to this?

"How do you feel about being lynched?"
"Indifferent. More interested in the outcome of the game."
"Clearly you don't care. How do you feel about the votes on you?"

I've given my opinion of the other players in the game. I'm not going to repeat myself ad nauseam.

[AClockworkMelon]

Needless to say, I completely disagree with you on just about every point. I think I'm a major contributor to this game even despite the distractions I've unwittingly created. If you want to policy vote me, just do it. Meanwhile I'm keeping my vote on the person I think is scummiest: Netopalis. I hope he's the lynch today, but there's not much more I can do to convince you guys. I've already made my case against him.

[AClockworkMelon]

I'd be willing to lynch Stels in order to avoid a No Lynch. I'm hoping that Holycon, Uite, etc, change their votes to you, however.

[AClockworkMelon]

Why would I change my vote to cliquy if you want him voted for vote for him yourself, he hasn't done anything for me to vote him.

I'm not suspicious of Cliquey and I didn't ask anyone to change their votes to him.

UNVOTE: Netopalis
VOTE: imkingdavid

I can't lynch Neto, but I think IKD is within reach.

[AClockworkMelon]

Hey hey.

[AClockworkMelon]

I have no sympathy at all. Stels has been inactive the entire game, not just for the past five days.

[AClockworkMelon]

Well then, why not go ahead and lynch me right now?

Maybe you missed the last fifteen pages where they've been trying to do that.

[AClockworkMelon]

AClockworkMelon: Why did you unvote imkingdavid in post 648?

I realized at that point that I was getting emotional- something that I've criticized other posters for. I thought that my personal bias might be clouding things and so I took a step back from it. I still think IKD is suspicious (you can probably tell considering my vote is currently on him). I find Neto more suspicious but I have to be realistic.

@Clockwork: We haven't herd from you lately so what are you thoughts on this talk about lurking and who is lurking?

No thoughts, really. Found this exchange amusing, though:

C

lurk

ey

You know, I find this talk of me being a lurker rather insulting.

You could post more.

[AClockworkMelon]

Clockwork saves face by blaming his flaws on emotions for example.

?

Letting my emotions get to me

was

the flaw.

[AClockworkMelon]

UNVOTE: imkingdavid

VOTE: Stels

[AClockworkMelon]

VOTE: Netopalis

Same case as before. I've read that after-flip complaining is scummy but I haven't played enough games to know if that's true. You can all bust hot, truthy loads all over my ignorance.

[AClockworkMelon]

I'm not voting for you because of that 'tired old tell', I'm voting for you because of my previous case. The only reason I switched my vote away from you D1 was because it looked like that was the only way to avoid a no lynch.

[AClockworkMelon]

I'm shocked, David. Just shocked.

[AClockworkMelon]

I don't think that your complaining makes you scum. Even had you not complained I would have put my vote back onto you. Your reaction to the nightkill is just something I noticed and commented on. By boiling my suspicion of you down to just that one tell you're creating a strawman.

[AClockworkMelon]

As for my case on Neto, see posts 327, 329, 332, 334, 342, etc. That part of the thread is where I made my case against Neto. Neto's response to Uite's linked post only made me more comfortable with my vote.