Newbie 992 - Game Over

[Chimp Pants]

/confirm

OMGurLurking!!!

[Chimp Pants]

VOTE: Trick r Treat for hyper-seriousness.

[Chimp Pants]

Sauron: Is this a random vote accompanied by a comment about shortening the RVS?

[Chimp Pants]

Ythan: I just checked your wiki. You've never won a newbie game as scum and have a losing record as town. Does that mean that it would be pro-town for you to self hammer?

[Chimp Pants]

Ythan: I'm not here to avoid mislynches. I'm here to lynch scum. As the IC, I'm sure you know there's a difference. I'm sure you're a fantastic player, charming conversationalist, and a stunningly handsome sight to behold, but wouldn't your record in newbie games indicate that you self hammering is good town behavior and you sticking around is bad scum behavior?

Maybe I should vote Ythan for hyper-seriousness...

Hopefully this won't be a dumb question: Are you scum, Ythan?

Playing friendly either means they're trying to hard to be a townie and they are scum or they are just have a friendly personality. In a game like this, the friendlier the playing style the more likely they are scum. Also people flying under the radar are also more than likely scum. Just an observation from games I've played on other forums.

Are you trying to establish your intended play style as pro-town?

[Chimp Pants]

Ythan: So you find this to be a game of logic?

Tazaro:

Vote: Robbnva
For unnecessary defense. Though, if that Trick r Treat appears in my window at night, defend me for real.

Why are you role fishing?

[Chimp Pants]

Ythan: I think that I didn't suggest anyone ignore logic. Also how could a VT defend Tazaro at night?

[Chimp Pants]

No, I did answer your question. How can a VT defend someone at night? Also, I'm trying to gauge where you stand with regards to mafia's formal expectations.

[Chimp Pants]

You're not reading my answer. It is a very simple issue. As to the other point (you self hammering I guess), between your comment on policy lynches, your MS newbie game party line about self-hammering (which actually avoided my question), and your role as an IC, you've already revealed a fair amount about yourself.

[Chimp Pants]

Are you saying my actions are pro-scum? How so? And yes, I answered your question twice. Here's a third time: How could Robbnva defend Tazaro at night from Trick r Treat?

[Chimp Pants]

Andrew: How does one vote show what a policy lynch is?

[Chimp Pants]

Ythan: What am I misunderstanding?

[Chimp Pants]

I know what role fishing is. Wow....

Please answer these.
How could Robbnva defend Tazaro at night from Trick r Treat?
What information could scum-Tazaro gain from PR-townie by his request?

[Chimp Pants]

So you won't answer my questions?

[Chimp Pants]

So, please, explicitly explain how Taz was rolefishing.

Have you ever been fishing? Fish don't just hop in the boat unless its a

really

awesome boat. I'm not interested in making up crazy scenarios about imagined scum actions, but really,

no one

sees how townies (particularly newbtownies) could respond to that joke and give a hint about being a power role (or VT)? Responding to that joke could easily give clues as to alignment. Rolefishing must contain explicit questions about who's a power role? Fish don't clean and cook themselves. There's lots of steps before yummy goodness.

Hmm... seems my vote was well-placed. Care to tell us in what world this quote makes any sense?

It was a half joke/half question to feel out the IC. With Ythan's previous comment about using policy lynches to discourage future anti-town behavior (I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today), I thought I needed a little further insight into his thought process.

You're player scummier than every other player on here combined and that's saying something.

What about my play suggests alignment? Also, who else do you find scummy?

I believe Chimp Pants was referring to his vote on Trick r Treat when he said "this." You accused him of wanting to shorten the RVS. And Chimp Pants is asking "Did I really say I wanted the RVS to be shortened?" Am I condensing my thoughts right?

I was referencing Sauron's vote for me and subsequent statement in favor of shortening the RVS.

@Ythan: I'm still waiting for answers to my questions.

[Chimp Pants]

So you're suggesting that the Taz wanted the fish to hop into the boat. It just doesn't add up.

I'm not suggesting that at all. What about Taz's comment makes it so unlikely that someone would respond to it? The tell would likely be something subtle, but someone stating their ability (or lack of ability) to do such a thing (however subtle or unintentional) doesn't seem all that unlikely to me.

We're still waiting on you to explain them so Ythan can answer them properly.

I'm not sure what's so complicated about my questions. I'm also not sure why you feel the need to speak for Ythan.

What about the policy lynch comment made you feel that way?

It read to me like a possible endorsement of policy lynching to discourage future bad behavior- which game gave me an easy win as scum in a prior game. I wanted to see how Ythan approaches the game, so I asked an admittedly insulting question about a specific scenario (that he never actually answered) on self hammering. The response was awesome:

As an SE and not a new player that's kind of a dumb question. It is very rarely pro-town for a town player to selfhammer, because they know 100% that it's a mislynch which is bad for town. Additionally, my record doesn't change anything. Just looking at the results of games I have been a part of has no reflection on my play.

First, we have a qualified insult. Second, we have generic IC talk about the logic of self hammering. Finally, we have Ythan's defense of his MS skills. Three points of pure gold, all without ever addressing the issue at hand- if policy self hammering could be pro-town for a player with a proven track record of losses as town.


I'm more interested in Trick r Treat's vote though.

[Chimp Pants]

Trick r Treat: What specifically about my play (and Tazaro's) suggests alignment ?

[Chimp Pants]

@TrT: What real threats are you talking about? Are you talking about your fishy vote to get to L-1? Do you think role fishing suggests alignment?

[Chimp Pants]

There's policy lynch talk and role fishing talk to distract the town all of which is keeping us from looking for the actual scum.

Are you saying Tazaro isn't scum? How do you know? He's from Florida, you know.

@Tazaro: What specifically about my play suggests alignment?

[Chimp Pants]

To my voters: Care to cite specific posts that point to my alignment?

@TrT: I'm not I understand your vote.

By real threats I mean the players who are sitting back and watching while the town is distracted with the pointless debates that you have continued to cause on here with myself and the other players. The more the town concentrates on you, the less attention is going to be on other players.

Am I distracting the town "players who are sitting back?" Who are these players? If you think they're scum, shouldn't you be pursuing these "real threats?"

The best move is to lynch you to keep this from happening in day two so we can actually get something done other than debating non-relevant things for four and five pages.

Are you suggesting a policy lynch based on play style? A policy lynch suggestion about 30 hours into D1? How does this help lynch scum?

[Chimp Pants]

@Chimp Pants: No, you're distracting the town players who are actually posting and that's causing all of this disruption in the phase. The
first real threat in this game is you bringing up things like policy lynches that are causing needless, pointless debates that are a major distraction in this game. I'm not even going to debate policy lynches with you because that's what you want, more debates. The only way we're going to lynch scum is by actually trying to lynch scum instead of rambling incoherantly for 10-15 pages over policy lynches and other game related things. Right now getting rid of distractors and then the floaters seems to be the best route because if the distraction is gone, then we can concentrate on what we should be doing: lynching scum.

So you don't think I'm scum, yet you still vote for me? On what day should we start trying to lynch scum? Also, I'm not the one who first brought up policy lynches.

[Chimp Pants]

Right now getting rid of distractors and then the floaters seems to be the best route because if the distraction is gone, then we can concentrate on what we should be doing: lynching scum.

Am I a distractor, a floater, or scum?

[Chimp Pants]

@TrT: What would be a more productive use of our time? Is being voted for inherently scummy?

[Chimp Pants]

Being voted for is not scummy but the more votes you have should tell the player that what they're doing, if they are town, isn't working.

Do you alter your play style to avoid votes? Is there anything anti-town about a wagon against a pro-town player? Is there anything pro-town about a wagon against a pro-town player?

[Chimp Pants]

History repeats itself once again. When someone questions your game style or something you've said, you try to distract and deflect with a series of questions. Remember my point about the distractions in regards to Chimp Pants? Prime example right here.

Actually, you had seemed to back off me and pursue other players. I'm beginning to suspect that scummy=questioning your play in your eyes. In the previous post you said:

Voting Chimp Pants is a waste of time at this point since it's going to clearly go nowhere.

To summarize this: the wagon on me had dissolved to just 1 vote and other players were being questioned. I responded by questioning one of your statements. By your definition, "distracting" from something (who knows what). My question concerning you altering play style based on votes comes from:

Being voted for is not scummy but the more votes you have should tell the player that what they're doing, if they are town, isn't working.

This seems to suggest that you believe that to be a good strategy. As to my other questions, I think we're using different definitions of "pro-town." I'm using it to denote alignment, not perceived play style. So....

Is there anything anti-town about a wagon against a pro-town player?

Yes, but you haven't been playing a pro-town game at all so that tells me that most likely you're either an anti-town player or just want to waste the town's time.

Is there anything pro-town about a wagon against a pro-town player?

You're not a pro-town player judging by what I've seen in this thread, since you again are alluding to yourself with the question. And to answer your question, no there isn't. But if the player is clearly not pro-town, they are more than likely to get votes hence you being at L-1 twice already.

You seem to suggest that a pro-town aligned player reaching L-1 is inherently bad. Its not. Mislynches aren't even bad if they lead to scum lynches- otherwise no lynches would be a viable D1 strategy (but they're not). We are trying hunt scum. My wagon saw you vote under questionable circumstances and Andrew push for a claim

way

too early. Regardless of my alignment, my wagon served the town's good by revealing play that could suggest alignment (your voting and Andrew's push for a claim).

No, it's a perfectly good answer. You're somehow attempting to dismiss it because I'm too, what, logical? Are you some kind of maroon?

I'm dismissing it because it didn't really address the specific nature of my question. Your earlier statement about policy lynches made me wonder if you support policy lynches to prevent future bad behavior (I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today). I asked a specific question where a policy self-hammer might be in the town's interest (I never said it would be a good idea, just asked for your opinion). Instead of addressing the question, you addressed the generic reason against self-hammering. You made a perfectly reasonable statement that didn't address my specific question.

To my voters: Care to cite specific posts that point to my alignment?

Please read and address the posts that have already been made against you. The thread is not that long.

I think I understand your reasons for voting for me, although I think if you reread our exchange, you might see what's actually happening and have a different opinion of me. I have seen no indication that anyone who voted for me could point to specific posts that actually suggest alignment. I'll address their points when they figure out what they are.

[Chimp Pants]

My "pointless new" questions were essential to answering your questions. Try rereading our exchange and see if it really suggests alignment, then check out the (lack of/questionable) reasoning by TrT and Andrew. I'm not really concerned with your vote- it reads as a genuine attempt at scum hunting. Others on the BW, I'm not so sure...

[Chimp Pants]

@Taz: Fishing involves deception. Your statements contain the distinct possibility of deceptively outing a PR. The issue is irrelevant to me anyway- I don't think you're scum. TrT/Andrew's behavior concerning my band wagon is much more telling. If I get lynched, let this be a lesson to you about what actually constitutes a tell. You pre-justifying a mislynch seems a bit questionable. This game is full of players taking the wrong approach to scum hunting. There is too much emphasis on what people say (or how much they say) rather than what they

do

. In general, this town is making up fake tells and applying them haphazardly. By the number of players that are doing it, I can tell that townies are also guilty of this- that's a shame. I'd hope that they'd learn, but I suspect most players share your attitude. If I'm lynched, don't view it as a lesson to me (I don't need your lessons thank you, I've found the scum), or that I deserved lynching for something you find stupid, but rather reread what

actually happened

and recognize that my views were genuine.

TrT was no longer suspicious of me because my band wagon was fading and he is an opportunist.

[Chimp Pants]

Why did it take so long to explain how he was fishing, Chimp?

Somehow I find it hard to believe that it took you that long to figure out how it was role fishing. We started talked around the subject in Post 70-82. In Post 83 I was a bit more explicit in explaining it and you seemed to articulate an understanding where to role fishing could have taken place in Post 84. My later interactions with other players addressed the likelyhood of a PR outing themselves based on Taz's joke, but you seemed to feign unawareness of where the role fish even took place.

If your original intent was to discuss the likelyhood of a PR outing themselves, I didn't answer your question

because you never asked it

.

Actually it was more in depth than that when I was reading all that I had missed I was a little upset I missed the hammer opp because he was basically talking non sense and throwing blame in every direction that's why I voted him

Glad that I'm not the only one who noticed that.

Let's consider context. Tangion was called out by Andrew94 for voting and simply agreeing with TrT. I am the "he" in Tangion's quote. Where have I "thrown blame in every direction?"

I have been very specific. I think TrT is scummy and Andrew94 is scummy, but less so. That hardly constitutes "every direction," yet Tangion not only puts forth this (belated) asinine reason for voting me, TrT pulls it out as a point of emphasis.

Let's take a look at TrT's record:
Post 38: votes Tangion. This is presumably and random vote, but he later confirms his reason (Tangion is to "friendly") in post 41.
Post 96: Votes for me for being "scummier than every other player."
Post 108: Confirms Tangion on his list of scum.
Post 111: Mostly seems to imply that Tangion and I aren't "real threats."
Post 116: Removes Tangion from his list of scum.
Post 120: Now caelum, Tangion, and andrew94 are suspect because they might be "flying under the radar."
Post 168: Adds Andrew94 to his scum list.
Post 184: Seems to suggest a policy lynch on me so the town "can concentrate on what we should be doing: lynching scum." Does this mean TrT doesn't think I'm scum?
Post 188: Confirms me on his scum list. Also contains this strange comment:

As far as lynching scum goes, the sooner the better because the Mafia have a night kill and we have to eliminate the night kill as soon as we can.

Post 195: Unvotes me because it is a "waste of time." Interestingly enough, my band wagon had faded around the same time. Votes Caelum- this appears to be a pressure vote to force Caelum to contribute.
Post 197: Says that I am "not a pro-town player."
Post 201: Andrew is suspicious for avoiding attention.
Post 228: Doesn't seem to articulate why he unvotes. Revisits Tangion's "friendliness" (still scummy apparently) and seems to be moving into a null read on Andrew.
Post 233: Admits that the "friendliness" issue may have been a stretch.
Post 256: Calls unvoting me his dumbest move of the game so far, but doesn't vote. At the time, Taz seemed to be waffling on me and Andrew, having voted for both of us in quick succession.
Post 259: Quotes Taz's concern with Andrew, calling it "a very good point." Still no vote. Could he be waiting to see which band wagon gains momentum?
Post 271: Similar to post 256, but quotes Tangion's concern about me.

In summary, TrT's suspicions seem to wander with the whims of the town (one of the above posts accused me of distracting the town from reaching a consensus). More recently, he has reiterating others' suspicions about Andrew and myself without ever seeming to commit.

[Chimp Pants]

@Andrew: I'm not sure what of my posts you're responding to.

[Chimp Pants]

Why do you think I haven't read your posts? What caused you to make your first post?

[Chimp Pants]

Holy OMGUS, Batman! There's quite a bit of nonsense/misrepresentation in there, so it will take some time to wade through.

[Chimp Pants]

The same can be said for your post about me.

"How can you be so obtuse... is it deliberate?"--Andy Dufresne

I can say that I'm Hulk Hogan and you all are my Hulkamaniacs, but that doesn't make it true. I'd welcome you explaining to me where I misrepresented you... Or you can continue your OMGUS tantrum.

I started working on a post addressing TrT's big post point by point, but addressing each confused point will likely turn into a monstrosity that will be unreadable. If the rest of the town seems to want to suject itself to such a thing, I'll be happy to oblige. Alternately, I can address the highlights (my current post is heading in this direction, but won't be ready tonight).

My very general response is that TrT's post is part OMGUS, part projection (projecting his transgressions onto me), and part obstinate misreading.

[Chimp Pants]

@Andrew: No problem. No wonder I couldn't figure out what your were getting at- Your point wasn't really addressed to me.

[Chimp Pants]

It's like I'm talking to a six year old. I was asking you to support your accusation. That's something that you need to be able to do if you're going to play Mafia. I never acknowledged it in 84 as you seem to have thought.

@YThan: Your insults sounds more like projection than anything else. Have you considered a writing class (or at least reading what you wrote objectively)?

Anyway, I'm confused. Do you think I've answered your question or not?

Back to your issue with your post 84:

And how do you think that his asking a doc to defend him (not to out themselves in any way) is rolefishing?

Post 84 clearly articulates that you acknowledge

where

the potential role fish took place. Prior to that, the combination of your question ("How is that role fishing") and your refusal to address mine (who could protect Taz?), which you deftly avoided with your impenetrable logic (and more insults/projection), brought into question whether or not you even recognized

where

the alleged role fish took place.

I addressed the issue with Sauron in P99 and P104. I addressed Sauron because, quite frankly, he actually seemed genuinely interested in discussing the issue. He didn't dismiss the issue with insults and inane questions feigning ignorance (apparently your definition of "logic") but rather actually displayed an

understanding

and

willingness to address

the potential role fish. Intellectual curiosity is your friend, but your play thus far has displayed a troubling reliance on perceived orthodoxy.

There is no way it was rolefishing. Even if he had actually been asking a doctor to protect him, that's not rolefishing. Because it won't, out, any, role.

This is the heart of the issue. Unfortunately, you waited until now to explicitly articulate it. Most likely, no one would have responded by openly outing themselves (I'll help you I'm the doc; or sorry, VT here). That's the case for all role fishing. Scum ask a question or make an innocuous comment about a power role and other players respond in ways that

could suggest

their role. How is that so different than Taz's joke? How could a response to Taz's joke

not

give a clue to that player's role? Any response (joking or otherwise) could easily give the scum team subtle hints about that player's role. Why is this possibility so hard to believe?

[Chimp Pants]

Chimp, address the actual points in the post against you. You have not done that AT ALL. You just made blanket statements without actually addressing the post itself to support them. And that's bad.

I'm not sure what is "the post against me" of which you speak. Do you mean TrT's? I'm working on that one, but the OMGUS-rage and detachment from reality in post 301 slow the process down.

[Chimp Pants]

I have a feeling Ythan has had about enough with Chimp Pants.

Why are you concerned with Ythan's opinion? He's more than capable of handling himself.

I'm willing to lynch Chimp Pants just to get him out of the way of any of the people who happen to not be enjoying this game because of Chimp Pants.

There are lots of play styles that I find annoying (in this current game even) but lynching those players doesn't serve to help find scum. It simply forces the town into an eventual lylo with players who fit into the whims of the preferred play style of the town but don't necessarily contribute to the actual search for scum.

I do not see any reason for Chimp Pants to be pro-town by his argumentative behavior.

Is there any reason to think that I'm pro-scum based on my behavior?

I think the reason that those on my wagon label me "argumentative" is that I believe there are too many people asking the wrong questions. Players are actually taking scummy

actions

yet too many of us are focused on the tone of certain posts.

TrT has followed the whims of the town with his words and actions. His large OMGUS post is a massive smoke screen of nonsense (I'll address it in more detail in other posts). Rather than scum hunt or explain why he thinks I am chasing the wrong player, he composed a large post that completely misrepresents what I've actually said and

done

.

[Chimp Pants]

Ok Hulkamaniacs, apparently if you say it, its true.

The back and forth between Ythan and myself can perhaps best represented by this skit. Ythan, I only insult those I respect and trust can take it.

On to the Hulkamania.
@TrT: Let's begin. To keep it readable, I'll stick to the highlights. If I miss anything important, let me know:

Post#59: Voting me because of my vote against Tangion that I perceived to be buddying. This is a bit hypocritical due to his stance against my Tangion vote being “hyper-serious.”

I'm not really sure what you're trying to write here, but I didn't vote for you because of your vote against Tangion. My vote was a RVS/joke vote based on your Post 47- "This is not the time to be joking around. The game's started." That comment, while not indicative of any alignment, seemed ripe for some friendly (uh-oh) mocking. And thus explains my initial joke/RVS vote for "hyper-seriousness." I'm a little perplexed how someone could actually take "hyper-seriousness" as an actual reason for a vote. Somehow, I suspect that you realized my initial reason for voting was a joke, but you aren't really interested in understanding what's really happening in this game.
Even if your imagined reason for my vote were true (I'm not exactly sure what your imagined reason is, but I'll play along), I fail to see the hypocrisy. How is it hypocritical to vote for someone for buddying and being "hyper-serious?"

Post#66: Probing both myself and Ythan after Ythan questioned him over his previous post. The fact that he asked him if he was scum that early was a major red flag about him. He also questioned my play style over a comment. First asking one person if they are scum and then asking another if they are going to play pro-town. Fishy? I think so.

I never asked you if you were going to play "pro-town." I asked I you were "trying to establish your intended play style as pro-town." My question was in response to Post 41 where you mention "friendly players" and "people flying under the radar" as "more than likely scum." A player's perceived friendliness is a null tell while "flying under the radar" is entire dependent of your definition of "under the radar." The "under the radar" tell is commonly misapplied to lurkers- a tell that shows a player's interest in the game or their general suckiness as a player, but not their alignment. Defining "flying under the radar" as following the whims of the town (something you are guilty of doing) is a more useful tell, but your play suggests that you likely believe in the lurker definition.

My question ("Are you trying to establish your intended play style as pro-town") was an attempt to try to figure out why you would list two essentially null tells as strong scum tells (in your words, "more than likely scum"). Was it newbie-talk or an attempt to establish your intended play style (unfriendly and active) as inherently pro-town and lurkers and friendly players as inherently scum?

As to the "are you scum" question to Ythan. It was a failed attempt to gently nudge Ythan away from an impending argument. Ythan's response to my question ("that's a dumb question") pushed a bit of a button of mine- lack of intellectual curiosity combined with unwarranted certainty combined with petty insults. I unsuccessfully tried to dial the discussion back a little, but clearly only made it worse- lesson learned for me.

Post#99: Again questioning anyone who says anything related to his playstyle

I believe this is in reference to the following in post 99.

You're player scummier than every other player on here combined and that's saying something.

What about my play suggests alignment? Also, who else do you find scummy?

Your statement made two points. You stated that there were a number of players playing scummily ("and that's saying something") and that I was obvscum ("scummier than every other player"). You made both of these statements without articulating what specifically about my play fit into your definition of "scummy." My number one interest in this game is finding scum. That interest supersedes survival. As a result, when someone makes a statement about me such as yours, I need to understand if you are genuinely scum hunting or following the whims of the town. If you are genuinely scum hunting, I have an obligation to address accusations. If you are simply following the whums of popular opinion, then you just might be scum. My questions to you were an attempt to force you to give actual opinions. You said I'm scummy without saying how. You said other players are scummy without saying who. These can become important points as the game progresses. We need actual opinions.

Post#104: Look at his hypothetical situations he posted earlier and read the last line. It’s clear that his plan this whole time has been to target me.

TrT quotes my statement, "I'm more interested in Trick r Treat's vote though" as a suggestion that I had a master plan to target him. TrT, you followed the popular currents of the game and placed a vote on me without giving a reason. You targeted you. I had nothing to do with it.


Now the fun begins...

Post#77: This post doesn’t need explanation. He’s clearly probing for information using hypothetical situations

Post#112: After clearly role fishing earlier, he asks me if role fishing suggests alignment

Here's what I wrote in post 77:

Are you saying my actions are pro-scum? How so? And yes, I answered your question twice. Here's a third time: How could Robbnva defend Tazaro at night from Trick r Treat?

This of course goes back to the pissing match between Ythan and myself. It seems a bit circular though. I saw Taz potentially role fishing. I called him out on it. Ythan (and later others) questioned it. Ythan's comments suggested that he didn't recognize

where

such a role fish might have occurred (Ythan- trying rereading our exchange as someone who's not inside your head as you write- your statements were more ambiguous than you're letting on). I answered in the form of a question out of a combination of stubbornness, disbelief that Ythan didn't even see what I was referencing (I thought it was feigned ignorance), and a love of Jeopardy! So by discussing Taz's potential role fish (which so much of the town seems intent on discussing), I somehow now am guilty of role fishing.

As far as it being a hypothetical situation goes, Taz explicitly asked Robbnva for defense. My current read on Taz is a slight lean town, so I obviously no longer think his

intent

was to out a PR. Hypothetical situations about events that

actually

happened tend to not be hypothetical.

As a gift to the town and readability, the rest of TrT's post will be addressed in a later post.

[Chimp Pants]

My Hulkamaniac Ythan: Care to explain yourself, or do you plan on continuing to make unsupported blanket statements?

[Chimp Pants]

Hulkamaniac Ythan: Care to give specifics? Or can I expect more blanket statements?

[Chimp Pants]

@Ythan: Your insults are quite charming. Since this is learning environment, maybe you could point to some of my vague statements. Call it a teachable moment.

[Chimp Pants]

So no specifics..... Ythan, I you are scum, good job. If you are town, I now understand your record.

[Chimp Pants]

Claim: Hulk Hogan and VT.

An interesting side benifit of Ythan's charming insults and attempts to discredit me is that it pre-excuses him for a mislynch. I flip town and the mislynch is somehow my fault rather than the obstinate misreading of Ythan and TrT.

Examples of Ythan shifting the blame for my impending mislynch:
"It is unnecessary for you to continue to post unless you should for some reason decide to make posts that make sense."
"Your posts do not at all represent what is going on in the thread."
"It's just horrible horrible play. But that's why we have newbie games I suppose."
"You're just saying completely meaningless nonsense"
"You unbelievable fool."
"Nobody is this stupid."
"You actually don't seem to know what rolefishing is, at all."
"It's like I'm talking to a six year old. I was asking you to support your accusation. That's something that you need to be able to do if you're going to play Mafia.
"You're somehow attempting to dismiss it because I'm too, what, logical? Are you some kind of maroon?"
"As an SE and not a new player that's kind of a dumb question."

Consider that these statements might be more than just childish person with a lack of reading comprehension. They effectively shift any role Ythan has in an impending mislynch onto me. Taz justified earlier:

If you get lynched and are town, use it as a lesson to not do things like this again.

As Taz and I discussed earlier, this is a terrible attitude for townies to have. Assuming I'm lynched from the Bizarro World Game, don't just write off my statements as Ythan has characterized them. Use them as genuine reads of a confirmed townie.

Being the eternal optimist that I am (a few days back I considered limiting my posts to listing my what I had for lunch; such posts would be less nonsensical than this game, but I persisted in continuing to post my thoughts), I will
UNVOTE: Trick r Treat
VOTE: Ythan.

I'd support a lynch of either TrT or Ythan. TrT for previous reasons and Ythan for aggressively supporting a lynch (based on obstinate misreading) while simultaneously distancing himself from it.

Caelum has yet to participate, but lurking is more of a tell of disinterestedness than of scum or town.
Sauron seems to be genuinely scum hunting and is likely town.
Tazaro leans slightly town for me.
Tangion also leans town for me.
Robbnva leans slightly scummy for me.
Andrew94 is a slightly stronger scum lean for me.
TrT seems scummy, but I've wrestled with the notion that he fits the profile of the type of player that I'm inclined to think is scum but isn't. For now though, he is a strong scum lean.
Ythan seems to be obvscum.

[Chimp Pants]

Ythan targeting me has nothing to do with his alignment. His continued misrepresentation of my posts combined with continually distancing himself from my mislynch by his attempts to discredit me do suggest alignment.

[Chimp Pants]

@Taz: Because he is. That's good enough for this game right? It seems to work for Hulkamaniac Ythan.

Picking one of Ythan's posts almost at random gives me...

You're the one not giving specifics. I'm not going to play this little bullshit game with you. It is clear that you are, have been, the one making blanket statements with no trace of any evidence or elaboration on an unclear point (ie all of them). Just saying that I'm doing it is not going to keep you alive. It's just horrible horrible play. But that's why we have newbie games I suppose.

Leaving aside the insult that shifts the blame from him for an impending mislynch("that's why we have newbie games"), he is calling me out for not giving specifics and making blanket statements with no trace of evidence. His exchanges with me reek of Pee Wee Herman's "I know you are but what am I." He states that I am making generalizations, I ask for specific examples, then he makes a post like the above quote. In other words,

when asked to give examples of me making blanket statements and generalizations, he responds with blanket statements and generalizations.

This is why I've called this game a Bizarro World Game. Ythan and TrT continually accuse me of the very things they are doing and much of the town follows along. Perhaps profanity is more persuasive than I thought... TrT has been playing very similarly to Ythan, minus the potty mouth.

Here are the specifics I have been hammering away at for some time now.

TrT voted for me for being "scummier than everybody else" here. You called him out on that vote and he responded with:

No, he's playing like a scumbag so he gets my vote for that reason. Put the ego away and look at logic. He's playing scummy and that's a tell. For that reason he got my vote.

So I'm scummy because I'm play scummy and that's a tell.... And I'm Hulk Hogan because I said I'm the Hulk and that's a tell. Then TrT got into the whole distraction discussion which at times seemed to suggest that TrT knows I'm town...

Right now getting rid of distractors and then the floaters seems to be the best route because if the distraction is gone, then we can concentrate on what we should be doing: lynching scum.

This above quote pretty strongly suggests that TrT know's I'm town. When questioned on it, TrT once again accused me of distraction. And round and round it goes...

Until my wagon fades. Then TrT makes his "biggest mistake" and unvotes, following the whims of another wagon...

TrT seems to suggest that my wagon reaching L-1 should alter my player style.

Being voted for is not scummy but the more votes you have should tell the player that what they're doing, if they are town, isn't working.

Following the whims of popular opinion seems questionable to me, so I ask him about it. Again, I'm accused of "distracting."

History repeats itself once again. When someone questions your game style or something you've said, you try to distract and deflect with a series of questions. Remember my point about the distractions in regards to Chimp Pants? Prime example right here.

Round and round...

But we're talking about Hulkamaniac Ythan's claim that I'm making unsupported blanket statements.... Right on my Hulkamaniacs, right on.

[Chimp Pants]

Can you explain the whole self vote business

I'm guessing this is addressed more specifically to me. I like context, so you may have some reading to do.


First, I never voiced any opinion in favor of self hammering, policy self hammering, or even policy lynches. My intent was the polar opposite. This is what I said.

Ythan: I just checked your wiki. You've never won a newbie game as scum and have a losing record as town. Does that mean that it would be pro-town for you to self hammer?

Let's look at the context. Ythan had commented on Taz's hyperactive posting in the confirmation/early RVS, warning that a playstyle that muddies up reads can lead to calls for a policy lynch (I took Ythan's comment to be typical IC talk- nothing notable as far as the game goes). Sauron chimed by referencing a prior game with Taz where his play style almost caused a policy lynch. Tangion then asked, "what is policy lynching?" Taz answered with "Basically, lynching someone purely because they're not being helpful or are getting in the way of smooth operation." Again, nothing to see here- just filling the new players in on MS terms. Ythan then added:

Or to dissuade anti-town activity in future games.

We were still in the getting to know you stage. Ythan's comments were still probably generic IC talk with no indication of alignment, but his urge to to add this point caught my eye. The role of a townie is to determine alignment of the other players- to find the scum. Certainly understanding a player's thought process could help analyze the town or scum motivations of later actions. So I asked a question that was part joke, part light hearted insult, and part actual question. I used to be in the Army, so ribbing your buddies comes second nature to me. The lightheartedness may have made a wrong turn between my computer and Ythan's.

I asked a question that deals with policy lynching, but leads to a guaranteed mislynch. Personally, I feel that my question points out the inherent flaws in policy lynching, particularly lynches to "dissuade anti-town activity in future games," or I'll-gladly-pay-you-on-Tuesday-for-a-hamburger-today-lynches. Somehow my question has become equated with actually encouraging self-hammering as a practice.

I checked Ythan's record in newbie games and noticed that he's never won as scum and is 1-2 as town (he also played as town in a game that was abandoned). So he has a less than successful track record in newbie games might support policy lynches to dissuade future anti-town behavior...


Can you see how following the idiocy of policy lynches to their extreme conclusions could actually support the ridiculous idea that self-hammering would ever be pro-town?

[Chimp Pants]

Ok Hulkamaniacs: When did I "attempt to use meta?" Or is it true just because people say so like my 24 inch pythons running wild on Andre the Giant at Wrestlemania. Blanket statements with no basis in reality are awesome. Maybe tomorrow I'll be King Arthur and you all can be my Knights of the Round Table. This new learning amazes me. Caelum, explain to me again how sheep's bladder can be employed to prevent earthquakes.

TrT: Its hard to push someone under a bus when they keep crawling under it themselves. Good to see you further mimicking Ythan.

Tangion: If you've lost track of what's going on, why don't you try rereading? You might be surprised that Hulkamaniac Ythan's posts don't reflect reality (cue Ythan's "I know you are but what am I;" what an awful game).

You attempt to explain that I'm misrepping you by saying "Because he is."

I wonder if Ythan bothers to read whole posts or realizes that I'm saying that

he

is guilty of saying "because he is."

[Chimp Pants]

chimp pants claim now im not joking

I you are asking me to claim, you clearly haven't read the thread. If you're saying that I'm saying that you are not joking, please explain. If you are saying that I am not joking, please explain.

[Chimp Pants]

Claim part II: Still Vanilla Townie, but now also King Arthur...

@Andrew: This is meant as no disrespect. If you missed my claim, consider a careful reread during the night phase. Maybe not everything that's been said about me is true...

@My liege Ythan: The Hulkamaniac comments are making light of the town blindly believing your blanket statements about my play just because you say it is so. Voting for me is fine. Voting for me because brave Sir Ythan made statements about my play that are entirely divorced from reality makes someone a Hulkamaniac/Knight of the Round Table. Your play, noble Sir Ythan, deserves an honored place at that table.

Getting lynched is fine. It happens. Getting lynched based on the Bizarro World reasons used in this game is just strange. This is only my fourth game here, but I've read through quite a few others. That tactics used here by Ythan are unlike anything else I've seen in experienced players, at least in newbie games.

These tactics (adamant, yet completely deceitful distortion) are so blatant, so apparent, so transparent, and so against the town's interests that I really don't know what to make of this game. That this is not apparent to the rest of the town baffles me almost as much as Ythan's play. Somehow I am a bad player based on things that bold Sir Ythan imagined/conjured, so the blame from my mislynch will fall at my feet- not those who so transparently distorted my actions.

Use nighttime to

carefully

read the thread. Dead, confirmed townies have no mystical insight into anyone's alignment, but they give

honest

opinions and reads. Assuming that I'm lynched, remember that

confirmed townies are honestly evaluating the game.

Don't allow one IC's potentially

dishonest

evaluation to discredit my honest statements. Don't fall into the trap of thinking, "Chimp Pants learned his lesson."

Most of this is AtE until I flip. So be it. I want to win, not survive. If the town continues this mode of thinking (and lack of analytical reading) Days 2 and 3, we don't stand a chance.

Cue Pee Wee Herman, "I know you are, but what am I..."

[Chimp Pants]

No problem. When the Hulkster's 24 inch pythons are running wild on you, it can be easy to miss important points. Consider how Ythan's Bizarro World play could be coloring your thinking.

[Chimp Pants]

My liege Ythan: This might be a novel concept to you, but consider my AtE post an attempt to actually teach in a newbie game after my lynch.

I have explained Sir Ythan's Bizarro World.

In other words,

when asked to give examples of me making blanket statements and generalizations, he responds with blanket statements and generalizations.

This is why I've called this game a Bizarro World Game. Ythan and TrT continually accuse me of the very things they are doing and much of the town follows along.

I then when on to reexplain my case on TrT, giving the same specifics and support that I have been hammering at. Or in your Bizarro World, "blanket statements and generalizations."

Cue Pee Wee Herman...

[Chimp Pants]

I still haven't seen the answer to my question: When did I attempt to use meta?

Vote Count

Chimp Pants (4) - Ythan, Trick r Treat, Robbnva, Tangion

andrew94 (1) - Sauron
Tangion (1) - andrew94
Ythan (1) - Chimp Pants

Not Voting (2) - caelum, Tazaro

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch.

[Chimp Pants]

At least you're predictable,

Pee Wee

Ythan.

[Chimp Pants]

Bah. Go town. Catch scum.

[Chimp Pants]

Go town.

Concerning the D3 votes for TrT: I know it didn't really matter what the lynch order was after Hiphop's claim, but TrT's mistake about the game mechanics (the number of NKs possible) at the end of D2 should have placed him into nearly confirmed townie waters. A scum player wouldn't have had that confusion about night actions. I find it highly unlikely that a scum player, having been through one NK, would consider making up that mistake to win townie points.

[Chimp Pants]

^This. Great job hiphop.

[Chimp Pants]

Is there a quick topic that can be made available?

[Chimp Pants]

Of course, but the VTs couldn't do this. I've seen enough games where a cop might have missed this. Maybe we should say thanks for not blowing it?

[Chimp Pants]

@Robb: I find it interesting to see what scum discussed about PR tells and daytime strategy. It's pretty common for it to be made public post game, although I guess sometimes players might have reasons to keep it private.

[Chimp Pants]

Was it a quick topic chat or just private messages back and forth?

[Chimp Pants]

Don't worry about is then.