Newbie 1010 (Game Over)

[nevermind]

confirm

[nevermind]

Nevermind is the roleblocker!

darn, i'm outed already.
wait how did you know? cop doesn't have investigation yet, so you must be my partner!

vote: civil

Also, two questions for everyone in this game:

What do you think is the best way to start off an F11 (the setup we're playing)?
If RVS:

• How would you decide when to end RVS?
  • What if no one reacts to anything?
  What would you say is the maximum number of votes a person can have?
  How would one vote "randomly"?
  • random number generator, frivolous reasons, patterns, etc.

and I will answer my own question later.

[nevermind]

Because he hasn't contributed anything to the town yet, which in this case means if he does turn up town, we're not losing a HUGE asset.

lol

[nevermind]

read rules >.>
(bold votes)
and FoS stands for "Finger of Suspicion"
basically means you're suspicious of someone.

[nevermind]

here is my view:
long posts = really pro player

[nevermind]

i will reread in about 1 hour, and try to comprehend what's going on, and maybe make an analysis.
definitely won't be able to reread now, way too tired

[nevermind]

1. What is your mafia expeirence (IYHO)
2. How do you feel about transition from RVS to seriousness(IE: How do you think it should be done)?
3. What do you do about people that bandwagon?

1. 1 newbie game here, replaced into a couple already-in-endgame large themes, some games in other forums.
2. it should be done with mutual acknowledgment but without actually stating "hey RVS is over, let's be serious" That's the cool way.
3. People that bandwagon for a legit reason are awesome.

[nevermind]

turns out i'm busier than i thought, i'll try to analyze/reread some other time (sorry about delay)

[nevermind]

lol it's actually with 8 other people.
and I will reread the thread, and I think I'll also answer my own questions

[nevermind]

What do you think is the best way to start off an F11 (the setup we're playing)? Using RQS. RQS avoids RVS and can get the game started faster if there's a serious argument. and if it fails, RVS can always be brought up and continued.
If RVS:

• How would you decide when to end RVS?
  • What if no one reacts to anything?
  What would you say is the maximum number of votes a person can have?
  How would one vote "randomly"?
  • random number generator, frivolous reasons, patterns, etc.

[nevermind]

Analyzing neil1113 since he has a lot of content =P

Here are a list of some of his significant statements, scummy or not, that I got from his ISO.

Post 1:

• Shows a misunderstanding of RVS.
  He also metions "according to the info above, there are two mafia"
  • I can see him as mafia, being paranoid of getting outed for knowing that there are two mafia.
    But it's likely he's just playing this set up for the first time.
  Accuses Ups of lurking, and of posting no content.

Post 3:

• Uses a RNG to pick silverbullet to vote.
  Then lists some "reasons" to justify his random vote.
  • silverbullet was also lurking 10 hours into the game.
    Assumes that with his vote, it's possible that silverbullet would be "lost", but with the compensation that he isn't very good.
  "I have been the most helpful so far, don't vote me!"
  Speculates on the possibility that Raz's first vote might not actually be random, but rather a clever way to make a vote seem random.
  Continues demonstration of misunderstanding RVS.
  Makes a list of townies and scum, comments on how he's voting silverbullet, viewing him as town, but hoping he isn't.

Post 4:

• Responds to Ups's "you haven't voted, you're fakehunting, and you're playing passively"
  • I actually did vote, right above you, like 2 minutes ago. (This was from a simulpost)
    I'm not passive, I'm just not making any accusations and waiting for other people.
    I just like strategically questioning people, then tell the world they're scum. (don't remember seeing any of this)
  RVS confusion, Answers my questions
  • Best way to start of F11 is to pick a single target, and question them.
    Random lynching isn't good.
  The principle you guys use is random lynching.
  You should pick someone that hasn't contributed at all yet, who we have no read on and can't tell the true skill of.
  If you pick someone active they'll be able to respond and you won't be able to get a lynch.
  
  Directed at Ups:
  • I've been "targetting" people with words to get them to talk.
    Nothing to do with trying to lynch anyone

Post 5:

• Directed at Ups:
  • You say I'm passive, but you also say I'm trying to lynch someone without a good reason.
    Which one is it, since they're obviously complete opposites.
    You're contradicting yourself lol, get your story right

Post 6:

• Directed at Civil Scum:
  • You're pretty experienced in this forum.
    You know how to play mafia better, so I should watch out for you.
    When you're in a bad situation, you should keep an eye out for the people most able to help you since they're also most likely to hurt you.
    You should keep an eye out for experienced people.
    You're good but I'm still keeping an eye out for you.
  During RVS I didn't vote but I pointed my finger, wanting people to respond.
  
  I'm not trigger happy, I want to lynch someone so we can get this moving!! GRAHH!
  Yo I'm the best player here, I'm giving a subtle hint for the doctor to protect me.

Post 11:

• I've played A LOT of games.
  RVS isn't very awesome so we should transition to seriousness as quick as possible.
  RVS has too much joking for anything to be taken seriously.
  Bandwagoners, even if they are new people, shouldn't be given multiple chances.

Post 12:

• A lynch could happen in just 8 hours since this is such a small game.
  I'd rather just watch people do stuff to each other.
  I shouldn't have Random Voted silverbullet.
  At civil:
  • I'm usually self-preserving in the beginning, since I don't trust anyone.
    Nobody knows my meta so I'm exagerrating my style.

End.

Analysis:

• Most of his arguments are arguments over game theory.
  Particularly, his views on RVS differs from most of the other players. (but similar to my own)
  He's played a lot of games (who knows where) but not any in MS yet.
  He also considers himself one of the best players (he probably is) and quickly understood the purpose of RVS.
  
  I have a town read on him
  , and his experience should be helpful later.

Neil, where did you play your previous games?

[nevermind]

When words such as "theoretical", "miscalculation" and girls are too much for me to handle.

[nevermind]

To my cocky friend growing more cocky everytime someone asks me to clarify the fact that he was... nevermind.

huh not referring to me right?

[nevermind]

i don't like unvoting my RVS vote when I don't want to vote anyone else. deal with it. it's doing no harm, and I'm not actually suspicious of him.

And I don't think stating reads of every player is optimal for the town in general; the mafia can kill off the player who is regarded most townish by the majority of the town. So no, i'm not telling you my views on everyone.
And I'm too tired right now (lol i have many excuses) to understand what's going on, especially with all those theoretical stuff going on

[nevermind]

note: L-2, no more votes.

[nevermind]

Hey you guys should stop arguing over definitions of bandwagon-ing.
I had a game where 10 pages were dedicated to the definitions of "bandwagoning," "defensive," and "reacting."
Which was horribly annoying to read through. I don't want this game to follow the same path.

unvote, vote:silverbullet

for doing this to us.

[nevermind]

bandwagon or not, he voted.
what's their to disguise?

[nevermind]

EBWOP: meant "there" instead of "their" >.>

[nevermind]

lol me too

[nevermind]

he didn't disguise it, he stated it clearly, nice and bold
I didn't see any disguise, but I'm not very good at looking.

@silverbullet
if bandwagoning was clearly defined, you wouldn't be asking "did you think i was bandwagoning you"
it'd be kinda equivalent to asking "did you think i was voting you"
so you're aiming to argue about definition of bandwagon.

[nevermind]

@silverbullet
if bandwagoning was clearly defined, you wouldn't be asking "did you think i was bandwagoning you"
it'd be kinda equivalent to asking "did you think i was voting you"
so you're aiming to argue about definition of bandwagon.

Dearest nevermind... so holy and noble

I wanted to see his opinion of it

For reasons of suspicion

Your assumption as to me wanting to argue about the definition of bandwagoning is horribly wrong

Your assumption is bad... don't assume things until they are shown to be true

Nevermind... you just earned a few scum points in my book. Congrats!

wtf is this

[nevermind]

if your opinion and his opinion are different I could only assume it would lead to an argument...

[nevermind]

I just want to know if he believe I am... and then again a follow up question (not relating to the definition of bandwagoning)

as a follow-up question, it should be related in a way to the original question, which was about bandwagoning.
how could a follow-up question not be related to bandwagoning then?

[nevermind]

Dear Raz,

please don't start doing this as well, silverbullet alone is annoying enough.

neil isn't coming up with good arguments against raz, raz is using neil's "newbiness in RVS" to his advantage.
RVS is over, so do we still need to talk about it when he more interesting things going on? I'm sure 'hmm he didn't pick himself when he random voted he's scum"
I also noticed how razgriz was voting for yoenit (for lurking but voting nonetheless) while yoenit sides with razgriz against neil. could be a some partner defense after failed bussing?

Can't really understand what points Chaim is trying to make, I'll reread his posts later, and hopefully get a better understanding of him.

[nevermind]

ah I didn't read Yoenit's post clearly, my bad

[nevermind]

I was referring to the "love notes" silverbullet makes so often, dearest.
and I admit that my theory was not made very well and unsupported (and I also noted that in my previous post)

[nevermind]

the reason for my not-as-activeness compared to my other MS newbie game is becuase I'm in highschool now, involved in sports and taking a couple hard classes (AP calculus fml)
civil do you want links to other games I've played out of MS if that'll help you understand meta?

[nevermind]

I'm sorry for lurking, this game is going faster content-wise than I'm used to.
I will try to catch up on what I missed.

[nevermind]

Sorry to see you go Spadille. Best of luck surviving in the wilderness.

VOTE: unvote Spadille, Vote Vinicius Chaim

Just a placeholder for now, as my vote on Spadille was random and it would be rude to have a replacement enter the game with such a vote on him. Picked VC because he voted on me (screw you argument), was the third voter (scumtell ahoy!) and doesn't seem to have posted much yet.

bandwagon is really scummy, and I knewI'd be accused of it when I voted, but, at least until now, I don't regret my vote, you still are my top suspect so far

First thing that I noticed, "bandwagon is really scummy."
So my interpetation of this post (whether or not it is accurate) is "I'll vote for you, even though that would make me scummy, because you're my top suspect."
Regardless of the truthfulness of the statement's assumption that "bandwagoning is scummy," the fact remains that VC just did something he considered really scummy.
This leads to his belief that "VC is really scummy."
Now he also stated that "you still are my top suspect." when he later admitted that his reason for suspecting Yoenit was Yoenit's inactivity.
And since he implies that "Yoenit is more scummy than me because he was inactive," it can be inferred that from his point of view,
"Lurking is more than really scummy."
You got something to say, say it to my face!


Then comes the neil vs. razgriz argument about RVS votes.

My view on this whole argument is that it was unnecessary and was a result of misunderstandings.
Neil, as I'm pretty sure he stated, is not used to starting off with RVS. I think he might have taken the random-voting process too seriously.
And that could lead to him over-analyzing RVS votes, which could be the reason Razgriz accused neil of being paranoid.


Now I believe I failed to see this post:

Sup Olinea. Nice avatar! haha

Interesting catch here in 243. I'm gonna have to look at the circumstances under which he made both comments.

But I have to do this:

unvote

vote: Nevermind

Was that BW discussion thing really the best you could come up with so far? Come on... I know you've played a bit. I especially didn't like it casue it involved completely ignoring
Silver's scum hunting efforts. (Which is excusable if you really thought he was scum, but suddenly voting, on a basis like that, could you really believe such an accusation yourself?)
I also especiialy didn't appreciate it cause you ignored what a couple people think was Razgriz dodging an accusation by misrepresenting and down playing his voting.

Add to this, this fine little tidbit here: Nevermind wrote in another game- "I've played as a mafia roleblocker in an F11 before, and as mafia I just defended townies if they were being attacked by a lot of people..."

You were kind enough to be the first to acquit Neil on his early suspicion-magnetism and general strangeness. And although you didn't outright defend Razgriz here, you went a totally different direction than anything anyone else was talking about. Which is great when you're thinking independantly and figuring things out for yourself...but when the reasoning you attach to do this is so weak and out of place, then it aint such a good thing to rocket off elsewhere.

Also add again how bad a mid-day reason that was to vote Silver, and how little you appear to be doing to try to find the scum.

I think I could accuse you of lurking on pretty reasonable grounds as well.

So about the BW discussion: I had just come out of a game where I had a different view of the definition of "bandwagoning," which led to 10 pages of arguments over what constitutes a bandwagon, which really threw us off track.
And the reason the argument happened was that one guy had 4 votes in RVS (this was a 20 player game) and some other guy went "Hey stop bandwagoning him he didn't do anything!" and I'm like "Yo they're not bandwagoning, it's all random."

And though the situation in this game was not exactly the same, I was too sick of discussing bandwagons and decided to not let the same useless discussion happen.
Now that I look back and comprehend the posts better, I realize that my intervention could have been unnecessary. However, I still think that a post of "Did you think I was bandwagoning you?" had a reasonable chance of leading to an argument over definitions.
And I didn't know what silver had in mind, nor what he was planning to ask after he received razgriz's response to the question, nor how he intended to scumhunt.
And I decided that silver was scummier than you, and I didn't really get any scum reads on anyone else.

And about me defending neil, I realize how you could assume it was me following my scum meta, and I have nothing to counter that.
However, I am not sure of neil's alignment, but since I read him as town, I decided to defend him.



Now I have not been able to slowly read through olinea's posts (maybe his avatar has something to do with it) but I will try to get to that some day.


Finally,

unvote

because I understand what went wrong when I arrived at my conclusion that silverbullet should be voted for.
And also

Fos: VC

and since I'm not very good at reading posts, can someone point out which important posts I missed?

[nevermind]

Come to think about it, Nevermind, did you even read my argument against Raz?

not really
sorry, I hate reading 30-line posts.
I just read the first few lines, and thought you were arguing over who was 1st and 2nd in raz's list.

[nevermind]

Dislikes reading long posts yet creates them. Fantastic. I'm getting slightly town on him.
Nevermind, might I ask why didn't you vote VC in #28 when you unvoted in the same post?

Didn't vote since I didn't want to put him at L-1 (i think he was at L-2 at the time I fos'd him)
And everyone hates reading long posts right?

And as for the full-person summary someone wanted me to make, I'll try my best but don't expect anything great >.>
And I'm terribly sorry, I'll say right now I didn't actually read the posts, i just searched nevermind. I'll reread later.

[nevermind]

-"WHOAH NELLY!" Neil (If anyone get's where I got the whoah nelly... i'll love you. Hint it's during a race)

nelly furtado debut album!!!
Yeah I'm a big fan too

[nevermind]

I'm kinda confused. Can someone that's voting razgriz point out his important posts or summarize his actions, so I don't have to reread this whole thing again?

[nevermind]

um,

vote: VC

I still find him suspicious, and I'm not sure about razgriz.
Again, sorry for inactivity. I'll try to fix my lurking problem.

[nevermind]

I feel comfortable in my position by now, but this whole thing is making me think twice about some people(I still have 3 suspects, but the only one lefting from before is Raz)

-Never
would you mind explaining your (random) vote on me? I really didn't understand how someone who almost doesn't post suddenly votes for the guy suspected by everybody, putting him in L-2

I explained my suspicions of you in an earlier post, but only fos'ed you since I didn't think it would be wise to put you at L-1. However, now that I think about it, it might not have been so bad. You might've thought you were lynched already, and tell us that you were scum as your bah post.
and what olinea said. you're not at L-2/whatever you thought you were at
my vote stands

[nevermind]

If your last post becomes a politician's promise.. I swear I will find a butterfly and kill it tomorrow.

i lol'd

and i'll wait until

Now i Know this is annoying and I apologize, but could you also restate your case in a nice big organized post?

this happens before I post my thoughts on Civil vs. Olinea + <i don't remember>
you guys know how bad I am at reading.

[nevermind]

I still find him suspicious

Ehh I did use the word "still." I hoped that it would be noticed that I would have voted VC in my original post where I stated my suspicions, except I didn't want to put him at L-1.

I explained my suspicions of you in an earlier post, but only fos'ed you since I didn't think it would be wise to put you at L-1. However, now that I think about it, it might not have been so bad. You might've thought you were lynched already, and tell us that you were scum as your bah post.
and what olinea said. you're not at L-2/whatever you thought you were at
my vote stands

I worded this post very badly, I admit, it's my fault you would think that I was piggybacking off olinea's reasons.
Instead of "what olinea said," imagine that I wrote "You're at L-4, not L-2." Since olinea just pointed that fact out in a previous post, and I'm lazy, misinterpretations happen.
My reasons, as it turns out, were stated in an earlier post of mine (maybe in others' posts as well) and I wasn't completely following other people's reasons (though I do agree with some of them, can't remember whose they were nor what the reasons actually were)

And I wouldn't consider myself "flying under the radar," at least not until someone explains what exactly they mean by that. (I'm assuming it means not getting noticed)
Since I guess you could call what I'm doing "semi-active lurking," and I've noticed that I'm getting mentioned more and more.

Nevermind, you have the right to remain silent, anything you say can, and will, be used in the court of law, you have the right...

I'm not sure if this is a joke or something, but if it was intended to be sarcastic, you should have the satisfaction that my feelings got hurt upon reading that part.
And no, I don't have any thoughts to add. I'm near-clueless about the case against Civil Scum, my understanding is that he's being voted for being too eager to bandwagon people, but that can't be right, he's at L-2 in just 1 RL day of votes. I still don't know what happened with razgriz that made him get a lot of votes. And I don't understand Civil Scum's case on olinea either.

[nevermind]

Well I can't deny that, I have been consciously making short posts.
But if that's enough of a reason for you to change your vote from civil scum to me, I can not imagine why he used to be at L-2.

[nevermind]

nevermind gets a vote and what happens? in 2 hours he writes what he wrote in more than 4 days

yup

[nevermind]

Hi, what did you expect me to do?
If I posted another 1-liner, you guys would attack me on the basis of "He's not contributing"

Additionally, I do not like the sound of "I'm voting you for flying under the radar."
Since that's equivalent to saying "I'll suspect you since no one else is."
So if you're just pressuring me to talk, just tell me what I need to respond to, no need to make up a reason, or agree with an invalid reason.

And I see no reason for me to roleclaim, even though it's true I haven't been very helpful.

Razgriz: can you explain how the fact that I posted more than I usually do when confronted merits a roleclaim?

[nevermind]

Yeah, I can see how you might consider that scummy, but I am definitely not going to roleclaim just because of that.
And VC is probably just eager to deflect the attention he thinks he's receiving, but agreeing so quickly to such a weak reason is still not very town-like.

[nevermind]

You know, VC is really using bad reasons to get his vote on people that might be bandwagoned.
For example, he first voted Razgriz when raz was around L-3, then voted me after someone else voted me and other people expressed their suspicion of me (and it was apparent razgriz wasn't going to get lynched) , and now he's voting olinea.

yeah i know this could be newb play, but I'm not letting it go. And this is different from simple vote-hopping because his reasons for doing so aren't legit at all.

[nevermind]

I'll try to get around to doing what Olinea requested of me some time today. No promises though

[nevermind]

It's all part of the game. If I do get lynched, plenty will be surprised by the flip, I can tell you that.

(God, I have to stop making these mysterious scummy posts)

what do you mean by this?

[nevermind]

in case i haven't made myself clear, I want VC to be lynched today.
Except I probably haven't been following the thread as well as you guys, and am missing some stuff about olinea. Either way, I don't find him scummy.

[nevermind]

There's nothing wrong with bandwagoning if there's a good reason for it right?

[nevermind]

We had 5 real wagons D-1 before a lynch. That was pretty impressive/unusual. It's never really the first, but often by the second or third realistic suspect, the town is ready for someone to go. We tried for a long time to get the best lynch...and both of the suspects were townies. I'm not sure if any of this means anything, but it's pretty interesting and unusual for a newbie game.

I'm pretty sure this is a good thing, we can have more suspects, right?
Not sure what going on still, or who to suspect. I usually have my own opinion, but this game is much more high-content than I'm used to.

[nevermind]

Civil makes sense, I finally understand.

Vote: Razgriz

[quote="Civil Scum"]
If Nevermind is scum, then my theory is that he didn't actually win. I don't think scum should get credit for a win in a game if they lurked the whole time. You shouldn't be able to win a game by not playing it. So if he's scum, ah well, he didn't really win.
[quote]
However, I find this quote kinda scummy. And this has nothing to do with the fact that he's talking about me, I just think he's kind of "letting me go" or something. A town player shouldn't go "if he's scum, ah well."

Fos: Civil Scum

[nevermind]

Um, i think there's still a chance that Razgriz is falling for a subconscious "OMGUS mindset", as a newbie town.
But I think he could also be trying to WIFOM us as scum, by threatening to self-hammer, but I think the most plausible scenario is that he's scum, and claiming a 100% scum read as a last resort.
So yeah I think if no one has anything important to say, someone should just hammer.

Razgriz: If you are town, can you, as your probable-last action, summarize your entire case on Civil Scum, so that your 100% scum read on him might be shared by others, and you can get him lynched? (I'm assuming that's what you aim to do, but simply repeating "He's a mafia goon." isn't convincing me)

[nevermind]

Waiting to hear his case on me is probably not going to be worth it.

I disagree, when would a longer day be not as good? (I'm assuming you just want to lynch him now)

[nevermind]

Civil, that makes sense.
But the uselessness of a day-3 cop claim still needs to be confirmed, since I think it actually depends more on the cop's choice in investigations than the validity of the claim.

[nevermind]

I thought about that, but a few positives remain, though maybe not enough. If they NK'd the townie, the scum take a big risk leaving a (not confirmed/not disproven) REAL cop in the game.

yeah and the roleblocking thing is pretty annoying too

[nevermind]

Ah yes, the roleblocking, forgot about that one

BLEH

unvote, vote: Civil Scum

He seems too good to just forget. Probably a mafia goon with a goon partner.
Razgriz can wait.

[nevermind]

if i had to pick now, the scum are civil and catterpillar.
also i think a massroleclaim is good here, if it hasn't already happened (in case you haven't noticed, i'm not exactly following this game)
yeah i'll check my role PM and get back to you guys

[nevermind]

oh yeah, i'm a VT.

[nevermind]

catterpillar, apart from me being in this game, is there anything specifically you're mad about?

[nevermind]

Some stuff I've been thinking about:
Assuming that neil has a 50% of being scum, and if he was scum, picked his innocent investigation randomly:
probabilitly-wise, from a neutral standpoint, neil has a higher chance of being scum than each of the 3 non-town in his list by around 4 percent.
but given my vt-ness, it brings it makes the probability back to 50% for each person from my viewpoint.

If neil is scum, assuming he also realized the mathematical stuff, (wifom aside) I think him claiming an innocent on me wasn't intended to make me trust him more. It could've been a 1/3 pick of someone other than his partner.
But yeah he might've picked me so I could continue pressing on my two "scumreads" of neil and civil. (i think, i don't remember who i picked exactly) Which could point to the 3rd guy in neil's list, Yoenit, being his partner.
Ehh

Also even if we do lynch correctly today, neil will get blocked and me killed if he's telling the truth. which would leave neil and 2 people he doesn't know innocence of, which wouldn't be very great.

Re: neil's cop claim my question is, if he's telling the truth, with how he was acting yesterday why didn't he get roleblocked last night? Post #792 practically screamed "I'm the cop".

durr idk if the scum got a cop read on neil, wouldn't they nk him so he wouldn't be able to reveal any results? though it probably wouldn't make much of a difference if they chose to block him and still nk silver.

[nevermind]

eh not sure what to think, voting seems a risky thing to do, and somehow my suspicions are on Yoenit and Catterpillar now. I don't know how that happened, maybe someone else convinced me, not sure.

Yeah so neil is basically like either scum, or betting on Catterpillar being scum.
But maybe scum aren't good at quicklynching and things will get more complicated.

[nevermind]

eh sorry for playing poorly, I'll take a break from mafia until my workload lessens.