Newbie 1038: Welcome to the Jungle! (Game Over!)

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Uh, confirming because for some reason I got a PM from the mod saying I was playing this. :/

[KingTwelveSixteen]

BV310 presents:

Newbie 1038: Welcome to the Jungle!

Do we have fun and games?

VOTE: Lunaticlucas

Random voting, woooo!
(I don't want to get the ACTUAL lynch this early so I am avoiding the people others are voting for.)

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Do we have fun and games?

VOTE: Lunaticlucas

Random voting, woooo!
(I don't want to get the ACTUAL lynch this early so I am avoiding the people others are voting for.)

We got everything you want.

Have you read the game yet?

Yes, I'm not sure who is scum though.

If you want my opinions then the quad-post was really scummy, but two of those posts are just vla and talking to the mod about something so I don't think it should really count. Being a snarky jerk isn't exactly giving him any good-guy points though. BrentM seems mildly scummy as well, but thats probably just his inexperience. I didn't really get anything other than that.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Why not vote one of the two that you are saying is scummy? There is nothing wrong with changing your vote. Its not unusual to change a vote five, ten or more times a day (depending on length of day and players in game).

Why is quad-posting scummy? Are you saying being snarky is a scum tell or a null tell?

I didn't 'cause its day one and those scum tells are ludicrously unreliable right now and based on things that are kinda petty, I figure I'd rather vote for the AFKish (sorta) guy first.

The quad-post just felt scummy to me, like he was panicking and not thinking, but then I looked over it a second time and two of the posts were useless for scum/town tells and the others weren't particarly scummy. And being snarky is a null tell even if it is kinda mean.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I didn't 'cause its day one and those scum tells are ludicrously unreliable right now and based on things that are kinda petty, I figure I'd rather vote for the AFKish (sorta) guy first.

Well, why are you not doing anything to draw out some scum tells or town tells to help you get a read instead of voting someone that has not posted yet.

Technically my vote did draw out some talking and possible tells: You are talking about it right now.

But yeah, you're actually right, I should be voting for someone else. I just didn't 'cause I was worried about lynching someone accidently since there are only 9 of us and very few votes are required to lynch. All the other games I've played have been like 22 people or little 10 person games where if you're town you want to off as many other town as possible before you win. (Makes for pretty quick games...)

UNVOTE

Hmm...

...I just left this window open for like 15 minutes while doing other things instead of deciding who to vote for.
Whatever,

VOTE: MirrorIrorriM

, I need to post this.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Sorry for double posting! I just forgot to address this.

VOTE: MirrorIrorriM

, I need to post this.

@King: Why? Am I lurking or something? Or is that a random vote?

I'd be curious to know as well, why the vote for Mirror?

Random vote 'cause I want my vote to actually matter as opposed to just sitting there on somebody who isn't playing right now. Even if a random vote doesn't actually matter for much...

[KingTwelveSixteen]

BrentM: Seems like the biggest douchebag EVER!!! and a little scummy with a hint of noob.

@Brent: ...I don't try to pick on people on the lower level side of intelligence. It's like starting a battle of wits with an unarmed man, but I just couldn't resist.

Just remember that when you point fingers at someone, there are 3 pointing back.

The best way to anger people is to come in here, only having one or two posts, and then claim someone else is a douchebag and unintelligent. It's scummy and a huge jerk move.

Yes.^

UNVOTE
VOTE: Lunaticlucas

[KingTwelveSixteen]

FREAKING STUPID INTERNET! Now I gotta make my huge post all over again!

[KingTwelveSixteen]

This post brought to you by

SAVE DRAFT, for all your paranoid post saving needs.

- King hopped on the lunatic bandwagon pretty quickly

My top suspects are either pine and lunatic as scum buds or possibly DP and King.

Uh, actually I was going to

create

the bandwagon on him, but I decided that would probably seem really scummy and didn't do it. Looking back that was a mistake. Also a mistake was me not explaining why I was voting for him, so now I am: (explaining, not voting, though I'm doing that to.)

/confirm

well sorry I haven't been posting very much, you see I have a life.

Seems as if he is justifying lurking...with veiled insults that we do not, in fact, have lives. It also seems as if he is merely justifying NOT POSTING, instead of say, not reading, not paying attention, or being unable to post for some reason. Purposefully lurking = scummy.

So here is what I'm seeing it as:

Mirror: Seems kinda nooby but hey so am I.

Eh, nothing to say about this.

King: voted for me so I'm a little biased. P.S. he's a dick

BrentM: Seems like the biggest douchebag EVER!!! and a little scummy with a hint of noob.

Two pointless insults, one of which is just in reaction to me voting for him due to his lurking, the other of which I don't get at all. (What did BrentM do???) He also simultaneously says BrentM scum and that he's just a noob. All of these seem scummy to me.

David: Seems like a town who is getting tunneled.

He gave no reason for thinking this or believing it, and I don't really get what he's talking about at all either.

Wolf: maybe scum.

Llama: haven't really made up my mind about.

tanstalas: IDK.

VOT Productions: IDK too.

Lunaticlucas: I think he's gonna win. P.S. I heard eh doesn't afraid of anything.

He gives no reason for this accusation (I feel like a hypocrite for posting that. <_<), says "I don't know" three times, then says this arrogant sounding thing about him winning. Perhaps he is convinced he will win due to being scum?


Oh, and here is something I just found whilst I was messing around with the forum things, the other game he has been in on this site, wherin he is a lurking townie. Since I don't know how to do the fancy "link with regular text" thing yet, I'm just gonna copy/past the web addresses.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p2398421, Note the politeness, the politeness not shown in this game.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p2402556,

Especially

note this one. Here he says that he understands why people would vote for him since he seems to be lurking, that he would do the same thing and is perfectly fine with it. No insults are used. Note that he insulted me for doing the exact same thing.

It's meta-ie and all but I thought I'd throw that out there as it has made me more convinced that he is, in fact, scum.

p.s. How do you multi-quote? I've seen it done in some of the other games on this site but I had to use the "save draft" feature.

p.p.s. This post would be better if my internet didn't spontaneously decide to dump it when I hit preview, thus forcing me to re-write the whole thing. Copius amounts of copy/pasting and paranoid draft saving ensued.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Ok, just gotta say my internet decided to completly explode pretty much. I'm typing this in from my college. I

might

not be able to post very much for a little bit because of this. Of course I could also head back home and have the internet miraculously working again, but I think it's gonna be out for at least the rest of the day, possibly tommorow as well.

Just wanted to say that I am not lurking, I am in fact incapable of easy internet access at this time.

Try to play with more experienced players - the best way I find to learn is to play with the people who are good.

My experience with competetive video games says that this is completly true, if you can't find some experienced players to play with your play won't improve by very much, if at all.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

PS I really didn't think of looking at people's past games to build evidence against them. It's genius.

I feel like being all "experienced player" about this, even though I'm not actually that experienced.

META

------------------------------------------------------------------
Shorthand term for "Metagame". From Pen and Paper RPGs, "metagaming" is something that players do with their characters based on player knowledge, not character knowledge. For instance, you have your character search the far wall of a room endlessly because you "know that the GM ALWAYS puts secret doors in these rooms", even if it's not anything the character in the story would have knowledge of nor have reason to search for.

With respect to the game of Mafia, a player's Meta is the way in which he/she plays the game as each faction. A player with a Town role will play differently than a player with a Mafia role because of the nature of each faction and their method of operation within the game. This difference allows one to review past games that a person in question has played in, with the intention being that you will compare their play in Game X (where they were Mafia/Town) to their play now in order to determine what role they have in the current game. The players that excel at Mafia are able to make their Mafia play mirror their Town play almost identically, therefore neutralizing the ability of others to read their "Meta".

Stolen

Copied directly from the wiki! Note the last part, most players go out of their way not to be obvious about which team they're on. Or at least seem like they arn't mafia...You know what I mean.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Personally I say we lynch lunatic first since he is lurking like crazy; Pine is actually talking so we can continue to accuse him of stuff tommorow but lunatic isn't saying anything and we will likely gain little-to-nothing Day 2 from him. Basically lynch lunatic 'cause he doesn't seem like he'll get us any new information at all, whilst Pine talks a bunch and we learn stuff from his talking.

David's

ninja-post

and MirrorIrorriM's regular post(s) are making me seriously consider lynching Pine though.


Obligatory "If something more suspicious comes up we vote blah blah may lynch someone else blah blah ect."

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Special note: I got ninja'd like a bajillion times while writing this.

@mirror
I said you read into my fun post too deep. It wasn't really a relevant game post, just wanted to tell

king

how i make my posts. Thought i'd throw in something funny or sth. I thought it would be very obvious that it's not meant to be taken too seriously because of the smiley. I rarely use smilies. And if i do, take the post with a grain of salt.

Awfully convenient? Again, it's something that can be taken either way. In no way do I mean to abuse this and claim i meant a post to be fun when it was not. With as much reading into my posts as you guys do, i thought that would be obvious already...

Preview edit: I shall make another post concerning DP...

Wait, when were you directly addressing me? I don't remember that. Is there another king in this game and I'm just being stupid and not noticing?

Hollow accusations i don't think so. It's not about putting somebody at L-1 or L-2. His posts make it seem like he wants to lynch me. Which is inconsistent with what he's saying in the exact same post. It seems like he's hiding behind a case against me but adding subtle hints into his posts. I wrote something similar in that post, yet you decided to ignore it...

So, who's your scum buddy?

Claim = State your role. (ie: In your case you would say, "I am a mafia goon" or "I am a mafia roleblocker", depending on which one you are

These quotes by David feel scummy to me, I think Pine might have a point here. Also I feel super paranoid that one of the two no-votes is gonna come outta the blue and hammer Pine.

lolwut? I'm not at L-1? huh...

Wait, your not? what?


@MirrorIrorriM: Why do you think me and Pine are scumbuddies? Also, when did he "manipulate the truth"? Preview edit: Urgh, everybodys posting to quick for me to finish my post! He be all accusing LlamaFluff now, please explain this reasoning as well. As long as we're making claims for mafia partners, how about MirrorIrorriM and DavidParker, he did after all list you as "Obvious town", you seem to take your cues from him a bit and his recent "you ARE mafia, period." type of posting on Pine makes him seem scummy. Also he just ninja'd me with a post seemingly defending you for your whole "not notice joke" thing (which I won't comment on.), but if Pine flips town I could see this as defending you, his scumbuddy, from suspicion.

Ok, just gotta say my internet decided to completly explode pretty much. I'm typing this in from my college. I

might

not be able to post very much for a little bit because of this. Of course I could also head back home and have the internet miraculously working again, but I think it's gonna be out for at least the rest of the day, possibly tommorow as well.

Just wanted to say that I am not lurking, I am in fact incapable of easy internet access at this time.

Disregard this, the internet at my home is fine.

Note: I'm just gonna post this now, I'm tired of having more stuff to respond to every time I hit preview, if there are any blatant problems with this post please say so.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Augh wait I think I made some huge mistake in player names somewhere in there, ugh.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Wait, no I didn't. Did I? Ugh, if I made a mistake please point it out.

Also, in the interests of pure readability for the players in this game, as well as my own sanity when doing vote counts, I'd like to request KingTwelveSixteen and VOT Productions get avatars.

Ok, I'll try to find a good avatar.

whee, triple post.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

<==Bam! Avatar-o-rama.

@king Yes, i have. Here it is.

I'm starting to think the same way, mirror.

@king When i quote i just open the quote button of the post in another tab then copy-paste the stuff i want in my post. And i keep that one in a separate tab as well. Also, i recomend notepad to save long posts. I simply use that.

Wait, was that the post people were talking about "being jokey is bad" and using that as a scum tell? 'Cause if it is I think accusing that of being a scumtell is a scumtell.

Unless the top part about mirror is somehow horribly scummy in some way that isn't obvious. I think I'm gonna re-read this thread.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Time for another gigantic post. wheeeeee!

@king
Yes. It is indeed that post...

PS. What is in that picture? I can't figure it out. :S

It's a bi-pedal mech with a guy wearing a motorcycle helmet driving it.

Actually he's got one of those cool visors that only cover the eyes, like Cyclops or that guy in Star Trek.

Things I noticed whilst re-reading the thread.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The game will follow one of the following rolesets:

A) 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker,

1 Town Cop

, 1 Town Doc, 5 Vanilla Townies
B) 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 7 Townies
C) 2 Mafia Goons,

1 Sane Cop

, 6 Townies
D) 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Doctor, 6 Townies

In setups where there is a Roleblocker, he will still be alllowed to kill if the Goon dies first. For further information, please check this link: http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=F11

!
Why do you make this distinction? Do you secretly hate town!?
(Thats a joke, don't modkill me please.)

stuff I deleted goes here.

I figure I'd rather vote for the AFKish (sorta) guy first.

Who in particular?

I just realised I have no idea what Mirror is talking about here.

Also I sounded really suspicious earlier in the game! I need to work on my mafia skills.

Blah blah blah.

So far I think DP is just a jerk and doesn't mark me as being scum.

Tanstalas marks me as slightly scummy for

tunneling DP

right off the bat, seems a little too sure of his accusations.

yadda yadda yadda.

Hey, Mirror said the thing about tunneling DP as well. (lunatic also said this.) Am I just misunderstanding this term? 'Cause pretty much nobody was focusing on him exclusively to that level, at least as far as I can tell.

As of about post 77# my suspicions for lunatic being scum have risen again after re-reading his posts. I notice that he lurks like crazy then pops up on page 7 or so, I'll talk about that post when I get to it.

Ect.

KTS and Lunatic are kinda scummy, but im watching them closer for connections then anything else.

STUFF

Either way my bigger problem with Pine is that he seems to be testing the waters and leaving small marks on different wagons which would allow him to go back and forth between them as needed. In his most recent post there are five players that essentially have a "no read" attached to them, a flaker and a conflicted read on KTS.

Omitted for space.

I just realised that KTS is

me

. Dang.

IRRELEVENT
tbh. :/
......

What does tbh mean?

Just assume this stuff is gone, seriously.
sth.
I mean really.

...

OK I really had no idea that scum have a higher chance of surviving.

You must remember that I am totally new to this, I have only read till page 4 in one other, non completed, mafia thread (game 1033 to be exact) and gotten some knowledge from that; otherwise I would be totally lost. Although I really can't denounce that accusation with some fact, my only defense on that one is that I am new.
...
Sorry, I really haven't been reading posts thoroughly enough (see post #99). (smiley ommited)
...

Wait, you really didn't think that

mafia

, being the people who kill other people, would have less to worry about dying from??? The second thing is also a bit scummy, not very though.

...
@king When i quote i just open the quote button of the post in another tab then copy-paste the stuff i want in my post. And i keep that one in a separate tab as well. Also, i recomend notepad to save long posts. I simply use that.

I'm totally using a variant of this, my "notepad" is the actual post. I'm gonna copy/paste the whole thing to form the ACTUAL post though, since I am highly suspicious of it deciding to dump my post.

I prefer the pine wagon the the Luna wagon.

Vote: Pinewolf

Luna hasn't struck me as particularly scummy.

I'm just putting this in because before this point Pine didn't strike

me

as particularly scummy. Just sayin'.

Err... the last replies are quite... lol.

...lurker. scummmmmyyyyy. Also a bunch of stuff starts happening really fast around this point in the thread.

Spoiler:

That puts me and Lunatic both at L-2 with 4 people not voting including me and him. So it's pretty much up to those people on who to lynch, influencing their votes is hard now. Pretty much depends on our past posts.
What i'm interested in is, if somebody could summarize the case against me so i can see if there's anything else making me look scummy other than that "definitely fiasco".

We have posted it, you should go back and read them, asking us to go back and summarize for you makes you look lazy if you are town you do not want to look lazy, as the only thing worse than scum is a jester or a PGO, followed closely by a lazy town If you are town you hurt the town by being lazy as you aren't contributing which makes you look scummy, which makes us focus attention on you which in turn distracts us from hunting scum. And worse case scenario we waste a lynch on a townie.

For you, and all the newbies please start asking questions of other players, or general gameplay questions (that IS what Llama is here for, he SIGNED UP to answer your questions and be as honest as he can be with you), throw some cases around, you throwing cases around might give us other thoughts or might point out something we have overlooked which will help us lynch scum.

Do some scum hunting, analyze people's posts, make a stronger case on them than we have on you. That is really the only advice I can give. The main points against you are the fact that your grammar used makes you look scummy. It has been said, it cannot be unsaid. Try to phrase things better in the future, give longer explanations maybe of describing what you mean to say since English isn't your first language. If there is no confusion as to what you said then it will probably not result in you giving us scummy vibes.

No one comes into mafia a pro, it takes experience to get to a point where you can scumhunt well, I am still very new and I am still learning, I am sure there are people on this site who have been here longer than me and still learn things. Try to play with more experienced players - the best way I find to learn is to play with the people who are good.

I believe you can sign up for mini, open, theme games, you are just restricted to one newbie game until you finish your first newbie game (I could be wrong on this, Llama can correct me if I am) however, I do stress do NOT get into more games than you can handle, starting out I think one to two games is manageable. However each person has their own limits and how much time they can spend with Mafia, me, my limit is probably 3 games, anything more than that and I start to lurk/flake and/or my posts suffer because I do not have enough time to dedicate to all the games I am in. You just need to post at least once every day, that is what mods usually expect from you, the bare minimum is once every 3 days usually, however if you are not participating you are not getting better and mods may not want you in their games because you only do the bare minimum.

If you do not think you can handle more than one game at once, try just following other games to see how people scumhunt or check out completed games, ignore the OP if the game is over (which shows what people were, scum/town) and try to read the posts and determine who in that game was scum based on what was said in the posts.

*thumbs up* Nice post.

Pine seems like OBV. scum at this point.

VOT's lurking/lack of existence is a bit scummy, but hard to comment on at this point until we see more from him.

See above point.

Pine seems like OBV. scum at this point.

Oh and why do you think so?

The way I see it, you are saying people are reading too deeply into your posts, something which we are SUPPOSED to be doing.
...

...Answering a question for someone else? I'm pretty sure thats a no-no in mafia. Also about this time Mirror and David start double-teaming Pine.
Suspicious.

...


Final note: I can see llama being a potential scum-buddy to Pine (Hi llama, I did notice you buddying me, but that won't stop me going after you), he mentioned how both Pine and mirror were scummy in a post of his, then pushed a case on mirror and semi-ignored Pine (commented on his grammatical "mistake" but that's it). Now, I found this fishy simply because mirror has been obv-town to me. And even Llama's case on him seems quite forced.

...

PREVIEW EDIT: Thanks for pointing out half I what I just said Mirror . Hurry up and vote for Pine now!

1. Where did llama buddy you?
2. Mirror is "obv-town"?
3. Case on Mirror is forced, eh?
4. Urging to vote for Pine.
Note: Yes, I am the things that could be used to substantiate my claim of Mirror + David scumbuddies and posting it here.

...

I love how you just shrug off my accusations and say "oh it can be taken either way" everytime I make an accusation. Your not offering any hard evidence against my case against you(lol). You repeatedly brush off my case as being ridiculous, you vote for someone like VOT to get pressure off of you, and now you say we shouldn't take your posts seriously. Sounds like a panicking scum to me (might just be my newbishness though).

@King I find you saying to "Lynch Lunatic first cause he's lurking" disturbing; scum-buddies with pine perhaps? Like DP said, if you lynch someone ACTIVE you can get much more conclusive evidence against them. Lurking helps find scum, it isn't a guarantee to my knowledge.

@DP I don't like you pushing me to vote for pine. You say to "hurry up and do it" yet we have 2 weeks to go. Although I find this mildly suspicious, I was going to do it anyways so.

Unvote
Vote: Pinewolf

This puts him at L-1, I request that no one hammer him yet; we have 2 weeks to go here people, we might be able to find his scumbuddy.

1. Whats with the (lol)?
2. "Sounds like a panicking scum to me (might just be my newbishness though)." Trying to defend yourself from inevitible town flip?
3. Takes a cue from DP, also suggests me being scum-buddies with Pine.
4. Says he doesn't like DP pushing him to vote for Pine but does so anyway.
Post #139: getting into where I've already commented on stuff.

So, who's your scum buddy?

Already mentioned this one.

Pine why are you ignoring my question, that's scummy!
...
Claim = State your role. (ie: In your case you would say, "I am a mafia goon" or "I am a mafia roleblocker", depending on which one you are)

I don't like this, though it is not

neccesarily

scummy.

...
I will admit I miss things alot, I'm still getting used to this whole mafia thing. You must have quite a keen eye (don't really have one ) to play it. :U

@ LlamaFluff: Are you perhaps Pine's scumbuddy?

...

I don't want to lynch prematurely, want to have the most ideal possible situation. And you blame me for WANTING to lynch you. I don't want to lynch YOU, I want to lynch SCUM; something I believe you are.
Then you say you wrote something similar in that post. I don't see it, so quote it directly. If you aren't scum then I am wasting the town's time blaming you. My best interests are the towns interests, which is lynching scum, not town. If you give me reason to no longer suspect you, I will by all means take it.

1. Says he isn't that good at mafia.
2. Random scumbuddy accusation.
3. Big spiel about towns best interest and blah blah.
Possibly covering for if Pine flips town.

I have to admit, Mirror's sense of humour is somewhat lacking.

Covered it.
Saved this one for a little bit just for this.

In response to post #137:

So you don't WANT to

manipulate the truth

[/size], but you do so blatantly without caring. That's like a hitman saying he doesn't WANT to kill, it just puts bread on the table (note that I am not comparing YOU to a killer, just your statement to an excuse that could be used by one). Wanting to do something and doing it are two different things. We aren't blaming you for WANTING to manipulate people, we are blaming you FOR manipulating people.

...

And your whole "you have to read my posts thoroughly" can be said as "interpret all my posts as if I am not scum".

@MirrorIrorriM: Why do you think me and Pine are scumbuddies? Also, when did he "manipulate the truth"? Preview edit: Urgh, everybodys posting to quick for me to finish my post! He be all accusing LlamaFluff now, please explain this reasoning as well. As long as we're making claims for mafia partners, how about MirrorIrorriM and DavidParker, he did after all list you as "Obvious town", you seem to take your cues from him a bit and his recent "you ARE mafia, period." type of posting on Pine makes him seem scummy. Also he just ninja'd me with a post seemingly defending you for your whole "not notice joke" thing (which I won't comment on.), but if Pine flips town I could see this as defending you, his scumbuddy, from suspicion.

...

Pine didn't "manipulate the truth"

, he just plain manipulated. He made a hollow accusation, knowing there was none there, simply to get discussion going about a person. This marked me as scummy, you know, like he was trying to get someone lynched for no reason. Town's goal is to lynch scum, mafia's goal is to lynch and kill everyone else. They don't need evidence, just need to be able to rouse suspicions and plant seeds of doubt and treachery.

And the thing about LlamaFluff was more sarcastic, otherwise I would have pursued it. It was supposed to be a light joke because DP was just like, "so who is your scum buddy" and Llama defended pine and I'm just ITS HIM. It was a fail joke I am sorry.

Also the whole DP thing is pretty suspicious.

BAM. Also, anything can be interpreted as anything if you try hard enough. Claiming joke on the LlamaFluff accusation when

you yourself

have attacked Pine over his jokey stuff? F.Y.I. yours is way more suspicious and fake seeming.
Also, possible distancing once I suspect them being a scum-team.

That is all 'cause I really gotta go right now, possibly more talky stuff later.

@Mod

Hey, can we make deadline lynches? Just wondering 'cause I've seen them before but I'm not sure if we can do them or not.

p.s. I'm not planning on doing a deadline lynch, I'm just asking.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Don't lynch lurkers, or something

I know this will probably end up looking bad in my case but, I've read a couple of games and some SCUM tend to lurk when they can.

And addressing the other game of mine you guys were talking about. It started the first day of San Diego Comicon, and it the biggest comic book convention in the world right now(if you didn't know) so yeah I kinda got distracted. The whole event lasts 5 days.

After that I got stranded on the side of the highway in the the desert for 8 hours so yeah I was not really in the mood to finish playing a game of mafia after that.

Not trying to make excuses just trying to get you to understand where I'm coming from.

Big tone change since last post.

Spoiler: LL's Post

Ok so here is a copy of my cheat sheet so far.

llamafluff: Town or a Very good Scum
Geotech: possible excuse for lurking
Very pro-town (seems to talk everyside of an argument not just his own)
Gets people to talk

DavidParker: Town?
Snarky
Sarcastic
Hilarious
Seems Pro-Town

BrentM: Town.
post 21
with no reason jumped onto a wagon
Noob
post 87
Implies I'm scum with pine. and that we talked privately even though I'm a replacement

Tanstals: ?
Staright Forward
Seems exp'd

MirrorIrorriM: Town.
Noob
Worries about early lynching
Thinks I'm trying to force myself into a leadership role

Pinewolf: Scum?
Manipulative
Non-Native Speaker (excuse?) maybe, maybe not
Seemed to jump on Vot For lurking

VOT:?
Seems to lurk
No real substence to posts

King: ?
Jumped on my band wagon quickly
After me for lurking


P.S. I am in no way trying to buddy up on anyone, if you think I am well I guess I can't do much but have you tell me why you think so and completely destroy your points.

P.P.S. When I say Noob that is also not an insult as I am a fellow Noob to this game.

P.P.P.S. Insults made by me are not to be taken seriously, I tend to make fun of people a lot, I mean no real disrespect.

P.P.P.P.S. Tell me why you think I'm scum and tell you why you are wrong. (mainly it's because you are not me)

P.P.P.P.P.S. Yeah five post scripts!!!! I challenge you all to beat that!

1. Seems to think DP is town soley due to being snarky and "hilarious".
2. Staright Forward? Seems exp'd? What??
3. Your notes are very short and basic, there is not much I can glean about your opinion from them.
4. Already responded to the bandwagoning on you.

...

- King hopped on the lunatic bandwagon pretty quickly
...

Uh, actually I was going to

create

the bandwagon on him, but I decided that would probably seem really scummy and didn't do it. Looking back that was a mistake. Also a mistake was me not explaining why I was voting for him, so now I am: (explaining, not voting, though I'm doing that to.)

5. Why would you think we would think you were buddying someone? Also some of the old style lunatic creeps back in.
6. "I insult people, but it's ok because I don't mean it!" Yeah.
7. "EVERYONE WHO SAYS IM SCUM ARE WRONG AND I WILL TELL THEM SO."
8. I could totally beat that.
Oh yeah, and

UNVOTE

untill I decide who is the most scummy of them all.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Crap. I was thinking that spoiler would put it in one of those clicky things so that it drops down. Sorry.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Crap. I was thinking that spoiler would put it in one of those clicky things so that it drops down. Sorry.

I should probably use that spoiler thing for quotes from now on.

Just remember that the "spoiler" option makes text go like

this

.

"spoiler=" is like

Spoiler:

this.

Thanks!

@Mod: Can you edit it and get rid of the giant eye gouge of darkness please?

p.s. Mafia is so fun to play. Text walls rule.

Done.
~bv

[KingTwelveSixteen]

@King: Could you please give me your response to my post answering your accusations?

Man, I think my streak of huge posts has ended, 'cause I can't really find any huge gaping flaws or anything in your response. It seems perfectly believable and you explain why you did everything you did. The joke and you accusing me still seem scummy, but I could totally believe you made all those mistakes soley because you are new.

Ok, maybe I can do a play-by-play thing anyway.

Spoiler:

Tons of stuff he said

OK I don't know where to start to I will just cover them as I think of them.

You blame me for the "manipulating the truth" thing. That is a simple miswording. I got excited and started shooting out posts like a maniac. It is a simple miswording, I meant to say he was "manipulating the town". Manipulating the truth would be lying, something he never did to my knowledge (only thing he could lie about is the language barrier).

You question my accusation of Tanstalas tunneling DP. That was before I learned how great an accusation "tunneling" is. A better word would have been that he ACCUSED him right off the bat.

You question me for saying "I really had no idea that scum have a higher chance of surviving". Truth is, two people die every night, the chances of mafia dying would be quite high right? I didn't think about the fact that one of those people the mafia specifically exclude to kill each night. I really didn't think the game through that much until Llama called it out. Also when I say "I didn't think it through" know that it didn't occur to me at all. Call me an imbecile.

You blame me for answering something someone else asked. Notice that I did the same when Pine asked about your avatar. :U I'm just that kinda guy, if I see a question I have any sort of an answer to, I spring for it.

At one part you have a string of 4 questions, they are:
1. Whats with the (lol)?
2. "Sounds like a panicking scum to me (might just be my newbishness though)." Trying to defend yourself from inevitible town flip?
3. Takes a cue from DP, also suggests me being scum-buddies with Pine.
4. Says he doesn't like DP pushing him to vote for Pine but does so anyway.

Answers:
1. I did the lol because I said "...hard evidence against my case against you". I just think it is funny how I repeated against. Like, I am against you for being against my case against those who are against - ect.
2. I honestly can't trust my own opinion in my first game of mafia. *shrug* It is just such a new experience, with me never playing a game like it, that I make assumptions very quickly and do not know yet how to read peoples reactions. To me that seemed like he was panicking. I was kinda hoping someone experienced would tell me if that is the nature of panicking scum and correct me if I was wrong.
3. I did NOT take a cure from DP when I voted for Pine. When I visit this thread, I read all the new posts, from beginning to end. About half way through them I saw stuff that convinced me that Pine was scum (him making excuses). So I had it in my mind to do so, however DP already said that people should go ahead and vote for him. It was a coincidence, one that I addressed actually when I said "I don't like you pushing me to vote for pine...Although I find this mildly suspicious, I was going to do it anyways so.". I said you are scum-buddies in a paranoid fit because you defended Pine.
4. Kinda covered by 3 but I'll answer it anyways. I Didn't like DP pushing me yes, but is that reason to not do so? If someone told you to look up the information to back this post I'm currently addressing, would you not do it? No you would still do it, because you PLANNED to do it anyways. I already had it in my mind to vote for Pine, DP just so happen to ask me to.

The accusation about my joke accusing Llama, while I was DIRECTLY blaming Pine for joke stuff: I was completely hypocritical in doing so I will admit. I really wasn't thinking. I have no excuse, I wasn't tired, I wasn't doing something else and was distracted, I just did something really stupid. I was thinking I would add a lighthearted air to all of this seriousness. You know, lighten the moment. So I decided to do it as a funny response to DP's post saying "So who is your scum buddy?" to pine. Unfortunately for me, the correlation between my joke and this post wasn't realized. As was latter addressed, my sense of humor is quite lacking. What I thought would be a nice funny touch completely failed and was misinterpreted.

Like I said before though. The accusation on you was made in a paranoid rage. :U I would be lying if I said I did it jokingly.

^quoted for posteriety^

1. This seems

possible,

but it still seems a bit suspicious to me. (<==manipulating the truth thing)
2. Tunneling = severe, new people wouldn't know that, you get off from this one.
3. I have no idea if somebody would make that mistake about mafia being likely to survive and whatnot. Either of our two experienced-ish players (Not counting the one I am still suspicious of who hasn't replied to my post yet.) want to help with this one?
4. Lists within Lists!

4.a This seems silly, but it is super minor so I'm letting it go.
4.b You claimed newbie here, which is kind of obviously true, we are in a newbie game after all.
4.c You seem to misunderstand,

...
@King I find you saying to "Lynch Lunatic first cause he's lurking" disturbing; scum-buddies with pine perhaps? Like DP said, if you lynch someone ACTIVE you can get much more conclusive evidence against them. Lurking helps find scum, it isn't a guarantee to my knowledge.
...

THIS is the cue I am talking about in this point.
4.d Good point about the planning stuff, I retract this accusation thing.

5. The joke stuff: You yourself acknowledge how it was hypocritical and a bad idea, and it just

feels

honest to me, as if you are town.
6. Paranoid and raging are not good conditions for playing mafia. See above point about honesty.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
- (post #141) After posting in another game thread all night (6 times after he said he would be away), he comes back to our game the next day and votes lunatic, the popular vote, while throwing an opinion out there that he doesn't like the pine voting going on.
...

If this is true then your theory could easily be correct!

...I can't check if its true right now due to unfamiliarity with the "search posts" function on this forum.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
I'm confident enough in my scum read on Pine that I am happy to push it. I'm also happy enough with the way my playstyle comes through that even if Pine flips town that won't necessarily backfire on me although it's quite probable it will.

You really should not be as confident or "happy to push" about this as you are. At all. It WILL backfire on you if he flips town.

@Pine:

i have only accused you of trying to push for a lynch too much

Exactly. That's all you've accused me of. How is that even scummy? If you thought someone was scummy, surely you would push for their lynch. That's how this game works. You figure out or try to figure out who scum are and try get them lynched. That's what I'm doing. And you are saying me scum-hunting is a scum-tell. That's where I see your biggest slip to be. I agree I can be self-centered and overly confident, but that's my way of pushing my case and trying to show others how scummy you have been (and to further my case on you, as rude/aggressive behaviour is more likely to get a reaction from you so I can confirm my scum-read; something that has happened)

I believe Pine is saying that you are pushing for him to an absurd degree. I believe the term is "tunneling." I have to say I agree with him after what you said after this.

As for your questions and "requests" for explanations, I have no desire to get into some distracting "back and forth" with you. Especially now since you are treating this whole thing as a joke ("I am terribly sorry, like really very very sorry to be a newbie. I have no idea what town logic or what scum logic would be. Please explain that thoroughly with examples or poor newbie me will have no clue what you’re talking about." ).

Furthering a back and forth argument between the two of us will distract town and not benefit us in later scum hunting.
...

Hey David, wanna know how this read to me?

I refuse to help town by answering your questions as that would slow down your lynching. Also I think of your questions as a joke to lesson the responsibility I have as town to answer them. Oh wait I'm not town so I don't care.

That last part is a "subtle" indication of where you are right now in my mental list of scummyness. Seriously, you make a big deal about looking into people's reasoning and motivation to do things and then you go and refuse to answer questions posed to you like this. I can see no town motivation, other than sheer impatience or incompetence, both of which reflect badly enough on you for me not to feel bad about this, to refuse to answer someone's questions in an attempt to speed up their lynch like this so early in day 1, we have over 2 weeks left.

VOTE: DavidParker

[KingTwelveSixteen]

He contridicted himself in a single post and you only think he's slightly scummy? That seems extrordinarily scummy to me. I mean the contradiction, not your not thinking he's scummy.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

He contridicted himself in a single post and you only think he's slightly scummy? That seems extrordinarily scummy to me. I mean the contradiction, not your not thinking he's scummy.

There's no "blatant" contradiction.
...
I fail to see how a "major" contradiction is present in my post.
...
I'll give you all the responses/answers to questions you won't if you just ask or accuse me of something. If you find me scummy, then go ahead and vote for me, but your post doesn't seem to imply that you find me scummier than Pine or Llama.

@king: I know exactly how you read that. Me ignoring Pine and his accusations to some extent. I can provide you plenty of evidence from other games where 2 players have become the center of attention via back-and-forth arguments on day 1 and all it did was create a huge distraction. A few times both players were town between the big arguments (generally one of the two people arguing gets lynched), and occasionally one of the two was scum. But regardless, huge back-and-forth arguments between two players that aren't going anywhere have no benefit for town. I'll gladly link you to multiple games if you want me to make the effort and go dig up some of my recent games.

Also, if you didn't notice some of his questions and comments were actually a "joke". I didn't just make them into a joke and claim they were worthless, he actually made them joke responses. Sure, some of his accusations and parts of his response were serious, but a lot of it was just sarcasm and joking questions.

1. Who are you quoting with that "blatant" there?
2. Same question but with "major".
3. Do I really nead to say this one? Pine's questions didn't get answered.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Pffffft. Stupid computer, didn't mean to post that yet.
4. Seems...possible.
5. Then answer just the serious parts, or answer the serious parts seriously and the joke parts jokingly.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
I'm sorry. I actually chuckled to myself.

I was actually going to respond to King's post and just tear it to peaces but I can see he's trying.

(And I think he's probably town but due to different reasons to you, I just get a newbie town vibe from him). King's huge wall post was useless.

What good points did he make or solid cases???

ALL king did was quote mass posts and explain what happened in a post by post format. That's useless. He just repeated what was in all the posts and posted nothing of substantial worth.

Maybe there was 1 or 2 good points in the huge wall

, but overall it was generally useless (apologies for the harsh words king, i know you seem new but that's just my impression of your post)
Seriously, go re-read his wall (173) and tell me how much of that was anything new or actual thought out opinions. It was just a commentary of what people said. Useless. Yet, you claimed he's town because of it.
...

You almost just contradicticted yourself within your own post...I don't know why I am saying so but whatever. Also which 1 or 2 points were the good ones? Please point them out and respond/talk about them.

@Pine: Just what questions do you want me to asnwer? I'll go re-read through quickly but I'm not quite sure what you want explaining.

WHERE ARE THESE QUESTIONS!?!?!?

...

Final note: I can see llama being a potential scum-buddy to Pine (Hi llama, I did notice you buddying me, but that won't stop me going after you), he mentioned how both Pine and mirror were scummy in a post of his, then pushed a case on mirror and semi-ignored Pine (commented on his grammatical "mistake" but that's it). Now, I found this fishy simply because mirror has been obv-town to me. And even Llama's case on him seems quite forced.

...

PREVIEW EDIT: Thanks for pointing out half I what I just said Mirror . Hurry up and vote for Pine now!

1. Where did llama buddy you?
2. Mirror is "obv-town"?
3. Case on Mirror is forced, eh?

...

These were heavily implied to be questions. However, due to the fact that Pine hasn't responded to this yet and I want to hear his answer to see if THIS is what he was talking about or if he was making up the questions, I shall now save my draft and post this later, after Pine says something. Also because right now I gotta go do something.
------------------
Urg, just realised I forgot to post this after the draft saving. Pretend this appeared earlier and not as a triple post.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Sorry if this might sound stupid but... What is this "this" you mentioned?

"This" would be DP asking you what questions he wasn't answering and your response.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

It seemed that you decided Pine was scum around your iso 22. Just almost was a matter of convincing yourself that it was true.

iso 22? What's that?

When you are reading the game at the bottom there is a pull down that says "Display Posts By User". From there you can select a certain player and it will show you all the posts that they have made and number them in that order. Iso 22 is your 22 second post you made in "isolation"

Yeeeees

, I was trying to figure out how to do that earlier since I had seen people talking about it in the other games on this site, but all I get figure out how to do was find ALL the posts by a certain user.

Thanks!

[KingTwelveSixteen]

"but all I get figure out" should be "but all I could figure out".

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...

He went into King's post and goes "I could pick this thing apart, but I wont". He gives off a vibe of being so sure of himself it is suspicious.

Can you quote a post on that for me?

...

And king seems pro town, making a bunch of good posts with solid cases and good reasoning.

I'm sorry. I actually chuckled to myself. I was actually going to respond to King's post and just tear it to peaces but I can see he's trying. (And I think he's probably town but due to different reasons to you, I just get a newbie town vibe from him). King's huge wall post was useless. What good points did he make or solid cases???
ALL king did was quote mass posts and explain what happened in a post by post format. That's useless. He just repeated what was in all the posts and posted nothing of substantial worth. Maybe there was 1 or 2 good points in the huge wall, but overall it was generally useless (apologies for the harsh words king, i know you seem new but that's just my impression of your post)
Seriously, go re-read his wall (173) and tell me how much of that was anything new or actual thought out opinions. It was just a commentary of what people said. Useless. Yet, you claimed he's town because of it.
...

...

My biggest vibe against him is how hard he is pushing Pine. I think Pine is scum for the most part, no doubting that. But he acts like he KNOWS your scum. I said this before I think; DP acts like either a completely reckless town, or a scum pushing a popular wagon (Pine's).

So why arent you scum with Pine then by your own logic and reads? You think he is scum and have been sticking to it for a long period of time. That means you too must be bussing him right?

Mirror didn't say anything about bussing, he just said he wasn't completly sure that Pine was scum and found it very scummy that DP says he is completly sure without any super-definitive evidence or anything. It seemed pretty obvious to me.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I think at this point we should just make a decision. We may be wrong about Pine but there is not much else to go on imo. If Pine turns out to be town, it will answer a lot of questions and I think we will have a good idea on where to go from there.

I assume that the decision is going to be lynching Pine then. It seems like that is the way everyones leaning to me.

For the record, I believe Pine to be town.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
As for my defense,

I'll respond to major concerns later

, just got home from work and heading out to dinner. I'm actually quite surprised that the people who were previously on my side are now voting me, and those who were previously perfectly happy with my accusations/cases are now the ones who find Pine scummier to me (see: tanst). It has made me re-think a few things.
...

So hey, guess what I noticed in his next three posts?

Mirror is seeming "scummier" but I had such a strong town read on him earlier I'm deciding to ignore it somewhat.

I have nothing to put against you as of your last post.

For now, V/LA til i'm sober and I've had more than 2 hours sleep in a night.

Hey guys just opened all my current games to do my quick-skim of the newest posts, and while I haven't got any content to post yet, I would like to state that Pine is at L-1, so no "accidental" hammers.

meh, ATE is common from newbie towns.

Unvote, vote: tanstalas

As much as i think not lynhing someone who has claimed VT isn't very pro-town, as long as we are lynching scum i am happy. AT the moment i am more convinced of tanst scum than pine scum. Although I still find pine quite scummy and a "possible" buddy for tanst.

Not doing what you say you are going to then changing your vote right as everyone is going "Eh, I guess we should lynch Pine anyway then"?
(Or at least I was doing that.)
You are making me ever-more convinced of your scummyness. Please respond to the things we are accusing/asking you about.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
I am role suspecting that your role starts with an "M" and ends with an "A" and has "afi" in between the two.

Vote: David Parker

Statistically speaking, he has a 25% chance of having a role starting with Maf and ending with ker. Just sayin'.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...

Also, feel free to post a case and I will respond to it, or quote one, but I'm not sure what you quite expect me to respond to at this point, seeing as there is 16 pages a lot of which is people saying stuff at me and some of it is people accusing me, I don't think you want me responding to every little bit of accusation or discussion regarding my behaviour. So please be more specific with what you want me to respond to.

I am totally fine with you responding to everything. In fact, I endorse it.

Also, considering how much you pushed to lynch Pine I can't imagine a single AtE would instantly make you think otherwise.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Because I said a single ATE made me "instantly" think otherwise?!!? I said I had been seeing some of the "emotional town tells' llama had been seeing but thought his scummy behaviour stood out more. I was getting a slightly more convinced of his "towniness" as he responded more and more, but I didn't let it show because I was waiting for that moment when he "gives up" as scum and town do it differently. If I let show I think he might be town, (if hes scum) he thinks hes sitll in with a chance and doesnt give up or keeps responding and using the same town-tells. But, if I keep forcing my case down his throat even if I start to doubt it somewhat, he eventually gives up and has to claim and then I can determine whether by the way he gave up I found him more town or scum.
...
So please,

go ahead and attack me for ignoring stuff and not defending myself

, but I've made it clear I will address specific concerns if you bring them up, I'm not going to respond to every little post (as your style seems to do earlier, which I stated was useless and I still believe it is) regarding me or

every little accusation.

...

1. Lying as town is bad, I believe Pine got in trouble for a bit about that earlier in the thread, on page 3 or so (for me).
What is even worse is giving the reason as "I would know whether he is scum or not if we get to the point RIGHT before lynching and he gives up instead of continuing to fight and nobody hammers him before I come back

even though I didn't say I might change my mind and gave no reason for the townies to believe it a possibility so they had no reason to wait for me to talk after Pine's post instead of hammering if they thought it was suspicious.

"
2. Ok, I will attack you.
3. I find the second underlined item to be very scummy. Minimizing the arguements against you without actually having to argue them? Scummy.

4. Oh hey, here are some questions that you never answered.

Spoiler:

He contridicted himself in a single post and you only think he's slightly scummy? That seems extrordinarily scummy to me. I mean the contradiction, not your not thinking he's scummy.

There's no "blatant" contradiction.
...
I fail to see how a "major" contradiction is present in my post.
...
I'll give you all the responses/answers to questions you won't if you just ask or accuse me of something. If you find me scummy, then go ahead and vote for me, but your post doesn't seem to imply that you find me scummier than Pine or Llama.

@king: I know exactly how you read that. Me ignoring Pine and his accusations to some extent. I can provide you plenty of evidence from other games where 2 players have become the center of attention via back-and-forth arguments on day 1 and all it did was create a huge distraction. A few times both players were town between the big arguments (generally one of the two people arguing gets lynched), and occasionally one of the two was scum. But regardless, huge back-and-forth arguments between two players that aren't going anywhere have no benefit for town. I'll gladly link you to multiple games if you want me to make the effort and go dig up some of my recent games.

Also, if you didn't notice some of his questions and comments were actually a "joke". I didn't just make them into a joke and claim they were worthless, he actually made them joke responses. Sure, some of his accusations and parts of his response were serious, but a lot of it was just sarcasm and joking questions.

1. Who are you quoting with that "blatant" there?
2. Same question but with "major".
3. Do I really nead to say this one? Pine's questions didn't get answered.

...
I'm sorry. I actually chuckled to myself.

I was actually going to respond to King's post and just tear it to peaces but I can see he's trying.

(And I think he's probably town but due to different reasons to you, I just get a newbie town vibe from him). King's huge wall post was useless.

What good points did he make or solid cases???

ALL king did was quote mass posts and explain what happened in a post by post format. That's useless. He just repeated what was in all the posts and posted nothing of substantial worth.

Maybe there was 1 or 2 good points in the huge wall

, but overall it was generally useless (apologies for the harsh words king, i know you seem new but that's just my impression of your post)
Seriously, go re-read his wall (173) and tell me how much of that was anything new or actual thought out opinions. It was just a commentary of what people said. Useless. Yet, you claimed he's town because of it.
...

You almost just contradicticted yourself within your own post...I don't know why I am saying so but whatever. Also which 1 or 2 points were the good ones? Please point them out and respond/talk about them.

@Pine: Just what questions do you want me to asnwer? I'll go re-read through quickly but I'm not quite sure what you want explaining.

WHERE ARE THESE QUESTIONS!?!?!?

...

Final note: I can see llama being a potential scum-buddy to Pine (Hi llama, I did notice you buddying me, but that won't stop me going after you), he mentioned how both Pine and mirror were scummy in a post of his, then pushed a case on mirror and semi-ignored Pine (commented on his grammatical "mistake" but that's it). Now, I found this fishy simply because mirror has been obv-town to me. And even Llama's case on him seems quite forced.

...

PREVIEW EDIT: Thanks for pointing out half I what I just said Mirror . Hurry up and vote for Pine now!

1. Where did llama buddy you?
2. Mirror is "obv-town"?
3. Case on Mirror is forced, eh?

...

These were heavily implied to be questions. However, due to the fact that Pine hasn't responded to this yet and I want to hear his answer to see if THIS is what he was talking about or if he was making up the questions, I shall now save my draft and post this later, after Pine says something. Also because right now I gotta go do something.
...

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I consider role fishing to be just that: "fishing" for PR's or even VT claims, as in actively trying to find out people's roles. This benefits scum for obvious reasons, finding PRs or making it easier to hunt PR's (by getting VT claims)

Role speculation is saying "i think so and so may have this role because of this", it's definitely anti-town as it doesn't benefit town to have your speculation into who is a likely PR public. If you notice someone breadcrumb cop, do you tell everyone?? Hell no. I personally hope the scum just don't notice it.

Reasonable.

I'm not quoting anyone with those words in quotes, but merely emphasizing them to some extent, since I was too lazy to italicize them. I used them to emphasize the ambiguity of the situation, ie: you can twist my post to show how I contradicted myself, but the key points of my posts don't contradict themselves, but it could easily be twisted to seem scummy.

Please don't use quotes if you arn't quoting someone or being sarcastic, it 'causes needless confusion and is therefor anti-town.

Pine never asked me any questions, and hardly even accused me of anything or posted a case on me. DESPITE THIS, he was saying I was ignoring him and ignoring his questions (lolwutquestions).

What.

You ALREADY answered why you didn't answer those questions earlier, you gave the un-satisfactory answer that follows.

...
As for your questions and "requests" for explanations, I have no desire to get into some distracting "back and forth" with you. Especially now since you are treating this whole thing as a joke ("I am terribly sorry, like really very very sorry to be a newbie. I have no idea what town logic or what scum logic would be. Please explain that thoroughly with examples or poor newbie me will have no clue what you’re talking about." ).

Furthering a back and forth argument between the two of us will distract town and not benefit us in later scum hunting.
...

I said some stuff about that already. It was

specifically

the thing that got me to vote for you! AND YOU STILL HAVN'T ANSWERED THE QUESTIONS! YOU CONTINUE TO PUT THEM OFF AS JOKES.

The thing you ARE CURRENTLY RESPONDING TO is me telling you to actually answer the stupid questions FOR THE THIRD TIME! I directly quoted the second time in the post!

I don't even remember what the questions were! All I remember now is you refusing to answer them and dodging like crazy!

Exlamation marks! Emphasis!

Llama buddies me earlier, if you didn't notice it oh well. I don't expect it to be a tell in his case, as town or scum llama would do it. I'm too lazy to dig it up since it's irrelevant anyways.

I ask you where the buddying is, you say it happened "earlier" but it is actually irrelevant and that you are a lazy townie. Yeah.

I had an early strong-town read on mirror. If he's scum he definitely knows what he's doing and using it to manipulate town by acting like this is one of his "first games". Even as a first game town he is actively involved and playing a strong game, I'll be very impressed if he is scum from his early game play. I still feel he is probably town, but less convinced than before.

Saying the case was forced was mostly because of the tone of it and just the impression I got from it not being genuine. That's just my interpretation and totally ambiguous so not something to be explained as everyone reads the tone of posts differently.

And you give no reason other than "tone" for the Mirror case being forced, and go on to say it is because everyone reads posts differently.

...You are so scum.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
@Mirror: For starters, king is having a go at me for

ignoring someone else's questions

. Most of which were joke points

some of which were serious

. I just filtered it all since it was largely a big wall post and

I'm easily bored

. Apparently, ignoring questions that are presented in a way that's annoying to respond to is now a HUGE scum tell. I'm also not sure what his obsession over small facts like me stating how llama was buddying me is. Sure, llama buddied me in one post, buddying happens all the time from people of different and similar alignments. I was merely observing it, and did so in a somewhat sarcastic way. Yet, he's using me being "lazy" as a scum tell now as well? Really?? Look, i'll go waste my time finding a quote which won't help us find scum or add anything to this game whatsoever. Buddying:

DP and Brent are both town.

...

...
Pine

never asked me any questions

, and hardly even accused me of anything or posted a case on me. DESPITE THIS, he was saying I was ignoring him and ignoring his questions (lolwutquestions).
...

1. Whee, contradiction. The two statements are only 3 posts apart to. Oh wait, you admitted he asked you questions earlier than that second quote as well. Why would you say that then?
2. What is really annoying me is that you utterly refuse to answer the questions and just dodge them instead. Dodging questions is a scum tell. It is crazy scummy when you repeatedly dodge questions THREE times in a row! Of course, for these specific questions, I believe the count is now at four, though it is probably higher.
3. Saying you arn't doing something because you are easily bored is pretty much the same thing as the "I'm to lazy" defense. It is a horrible defense.
4. Those small facts are not what I am obsessing about, I am obsessing about your refusal to answer them.
5.

You refuse to answer the serious questions in Pine's post entirely because some of the questions wern't serious.

That is a terrible, terrible reason.
6. I just love how you respond to Mirror and not me up there when you are trying to refute me, then at some point you give up on pretending to be talking to Mirror and change to talking to me directly.
7. The "buddying" that you included was ridiculous. That is not even close to buddying. I cannot see how you could possibly interpret every "I think X + X are town" post as buddying. Oh wait, you only did that to one post.
8. Note that your response for the case on mirror being bad thing is that it was "just bleh." You still have not given any actual reasons besides gut feelings, yet it seems as if you are trying to pass off those feelings as fact. Do not do that.

On the DP wagon: Remember when you vote DP for not answering questions and playing so aggressively that he ALWAYS plays like that in every game I have looked at that he is in. Although he is nearly on equal levels with my suspicion as Pine, he has a meta to back his case of that just being his playstyle; no matter how much I or anyone dislikes it.

If we kill him enough day one for doing this he will eventually stop doing it.
Also, unless he changes his playstyle between scum and town I don't particularly care about meta. Just saying.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

What makes

intentionally

ignoring questions a scum tell? Is it not just anti-town?

The "i'm too lazy defence", once again how is that scummY?


Btw, this is number 5 (in terms of ignoring those questions)

Ah, so your defense is now that you are just anti-town.
.
..
...
Do I even need to say why I think we should lynch you anymore?

Also, please note that scum just so happen to be anti-town.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Wooosh. Everything I've said has just gone right over your head.

Are you colorblind in real life as well?

Allow me to rephrase my arguement.

1. By DavidParker's own admission, he is acting anti-town.
2. Pretty much everyone wants to lynch somebody today.
3. DavidParker, being anti-town, has a higher chance of being scum than others.
4. Due to point 1, losing DavidParker will not hurt town as much as losing other players, should they happen to be town.
5. Therefor, lynch DavidParker.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
You tunneling on me and ignoring the lurker and not scum-hunting anywhere else all while asking useless questions (okay they're not all useless but some definitely are) is anti-town. At least I have the balls to admit to the anti-town characteristics of my play-style.

I am not tunneling you, I am going after you because you blatantly refuse to answer any questions. you yourself said not to go for the lurkers. I have scum-hunted both lunatic, the LURKER, and Mirror. Once again you do not answer the questions. I am not acting anti-town, and admitting to acting anti-town does not make you better in any way shape or form, it merely reveals that you care less about playing the game correctly then you do for winning this ridiculous arguement. Oh yeah, this also marks the second personal insult towards me in a row you have given in "defense" of your actions.

Oh yes, then there is this.

Cool, everyone plays anti-town at some point or another.

So, what? Does that make it OK? Are you trying to say that it is perfectly normal to play the game badly on an off day and therefor it is fine for you to purposefully do it?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Oh yeah, *ahem*.

Welcome to this wonderful game of mafia singersigner, I hope you enjoy your stay here.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Explanation mark? What?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Hint: Explanation mark implies sarcasm.
...

...
Preview edit: i'm pretty sure he meant exclamation mark.

Wait, wait, wait.
Are you saying THIS was sarcasm?

Pine why are you ignoring my question, that's scummy!

...How was that sarcastic?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I consider myself quite good at reading sarcasm as well. Obviously you guys fail at it.

Pine, despite the fact I still think you're scum I actually really enjoy being in this game with you because you have brought a lot of life and you actually have a personality and seem to be enjoying the game (and you use sarcasm and understand it as well)

But yeah, you are still probably scum and need to die. :/

...Didn't you renounce the whole "Pine is scum" thing a couple pages ago? You remember right? It was RIGHT AS HE WAS ABOUT TO BE LYNCHED.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I have no idea what the vote-count looks like.

@Mod?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

So...did you know you can't hum while plugging your nose?

Luke Skywalker: It's not true...

THATS IMPOSSIBLE

!

It is a lie. Try it for yourself, you know it to be true.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Hm. I think DP is scummier than lunatic, but lunatic has more votes right now and he also never really stopped being scummy, he just decided to lurk (lurk more I mean, hasn't even posted in the last 5 days.) and then the whole DP thing happened...

I'm not sure if I should knock him down to L-1 or stay on DP though.
...DP is just so scummy!

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Oh, huh. I thought lunatic was the one with the most votes. Thanks bv310.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Ah, double ninja'd!
Also, now lunatic and DP are tied, with the people not voting for either being them and Pine.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I can understand King's being "convinced" i am scum. It happens to the best of us. Then confirmation bias sets in and you see everything they do as having scum intent, and see scum reasoning for it. I've been in the same position and tunneled someone to hell because I was convinced they were scum, attacked them, then every response to my attacks I saw as scummy (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &start=275). It gets to a point (ie: now) where I see no reason to respond to him because I'm not going to convince him other wise, maybe other people will or my interactions with other people will change his view, but interactions between the two of us is just going to be a big distraction.

There is a strong case on Luna, but I'm not going to vote him yet. As I prefer my vote on tanst at the moment. I'll let it be known that as of right now I find it quite likely that 2/3 of Singer/Luna/Tanst are scum, and if that's not the case it's because Pine is scum, he still seems scummy to me, but people are slowly convincing me with their "pine = obv town" pitches :/

Stop trying to discredit my arguement as tunneling and confirmation bias. You have been doing a horrible job defending yourself.

Reasons why DP is probably scum:

1. Blatant refusal to answer questions.
2. Tried defending himself by saying his actions were merly anti-town.
3. Tries to minimize arguements against himself instead of actually answering them on several occasions.
4. He has contradicted himself at least 3 times by my count.

These are only my arguements for his scummyness, the whole deflect attention thing brought up by others also seems valid.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I don't think there are any days I won't be able to post, there might be a few I'm having to much of a good time eating food and messing around with presents that I forget though.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

It is at 3 votes on both of DP and lunatic with them voting for LlamaFluff and Tanstalis respectively.

Pinewolf is abstaining from voting.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Spoiler:

It is at 3 votes on both of DP and lunatic with them voting for LlamaFluff and Tanstalis respectively.

Pinewolf is abstaining from voting.

Actually.

It is at 3 votes on both of DP and lunatic with them voting for Tanstalas and Llama respectively.

Pinewolf is abstaining from voting.

FTFY

DP is voting me, Luna is voting Llama

You used the word respectively

[KingTwelveSixteen]

As i've been saying singer is probably scum, first thing tanst has got right!

Obvious distraction vote is obvious.

On the case on singer: That is a horrible case and it has already been debunked by singer herself so I shall not argue against it myself.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

David has claimed VT and has now just made another pretty blatant mistake involving tanstalas, we should lynch him. We will lose very little if he is town and gain much if he turns out to be scum, which is much more likely.

Preemptive speculation about scumbuddies:
tanstalas: He voted for someone nobody else was voting for at the time with rather shallow reasoning, possibly as an attempt to pull a bit of heat off of DP. DP immediatly sheeped him.
Mirror: Despite my town tell on him he still seemed to copy many of DP's votes and stuff earlier so I must include him as a possibility.
Lunatic (now Uite): lunatic claimed DP was townie, is very scummy just by himself, and DP seems to have tried not to bring any attention to him, attempting to start another wagon on someone else instead of just trying to strengthen the case on lunatic (Which would have been much easier). This one is most likely in my opinion, although it could be someone else entirely.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Oh, here is why he is voting for you Uite.
I said this:

...
Lunatic (now Uite): lunatic claimed DP was townie, is very scummy just by himself, and DP seems to have tried not to bring any attention to him, attempting to start another wagon on someone else instead of just trying to strengthen the case on lunatic (Which would have been much easier). This one is most likely in my opinion, although it could be someone else entirely.

Then DP said this:

...

Speculating over scum buddies is a bad idea until you have seen a scum flip (in fact it hurts town, generally, and just helps mafia know who to kill at night), and it's just pointless until you've seen a flip anyways.

Next post after that he said this:

Vote: Lunatic

Already claimed and stated what would result from my lynch. But I suppose there are worse lynches.

So yeah. If you are scum Uite, I feel a little bad for you. You were doomed from the moment you joined. Especially if we have a cop.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Oh, here is why he is voting for you Uite.

[…]

Disregarding the fact that you're answering in someone else's place, which is very bad by itself, can you explain why that is actually a reason to vote for someone? First, you claim he is trying very hard to avoid my predecessor, implicating us as scumbuddies. Then he points out that such speculation is anti-town. How does it follow from that that he would vote for me?

So yeah. If you are scum Uite, I feel a little bad for you. You were doomed from the moment you joined. Especially if we have a cop.

Actually, I'd gladly let myself be investigated, though I feel there are far better targets.

Also, I'm now up to page 11 with my readthrough. It's going a lot slower than I hoped, and I guess Hofstadter's law is in full effect. I can say that my reads have definitely shifted over the last few pages. I hope to get this done before I go to bed, but I'm not counting on it.

I said you/lunatic were most likely scumbuddy of him from his completely ignoring you/lunatic. He says the whole speculation thing is stupid then next post suddenly stops ignoring you without giving a reason why.

If that is still to subtle or whatever, I am saying I think he is voting for you because he is blindly panicing as scum and is trying to stop inplicating his scumbuddy, you, by ignoring you.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

DavidParker has four votes, thats L-1, not L-2.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Oh yeah, I'm gonna be V/LA or whatever December 26 to...29 I think? I'm not entirely sure how long it'll take.

Also Uite, which of my points hit the mark and which missed? Just saying that some of them did and some didn't with no other reasoning doesn't help at all.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

KingTwelveSixteen:

He's definitely trying, but I think he misses the mark as often as he hits it. He's too cautious with his votes, but that's null. He's been tunnelling on DP all game, with occasional small excursions to Mirror. I'm decidedly neutral on him.

...I should respond completly instead of just partially to this. Thanks for reminding me not to hold things back singer.

1. Which marks hit and which failed? Please list examples.
2. Cautiousness was due to newbieness.
3. How have I been tunneling DP? Tunneling is a serious accusation, is it not?
4.

Occasional

excursions to Mirror? I made one "excursion" to him at the same time as my initial attack on DP then droped it to focus entirely on DP.
5. You apparently didn't notice my case on your predecessor, lunatic. I find it very hard to believe that you wouldn't notice the case as it directly impacts you. I attacked him fairly heavily as well.
6. Neutral? The neutralness of this post feels, well,

fake

to me. I don't think I'm saying this right, but the whole "neutral opinion on me" thing just doesn't sit well with me. This opinion just feels fake to me, as if your actual opinion on me is something other than this.

The flimsy accusation of tunneling, not mentioning where I missed the mark, and seemingly not noticing my case against your predecessor, these things make me think that perhaps you are saying them so that you can discredit my arguments against you/lunatic (and DP) without answering them.

This opinion just feels fake to me.
Thanks again to singer for reminding me to actually post what I am thinking instead of just keeping it to myself.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Bah, the forum ate my post again, here is a new version of it that isn't as good as the original.

King...wtf did I say??

but...

I'm flattered?

"So...I just realized why I should've posted this from the beginning. I hate it when people don't get everything out there to start with in case they're not around tomorrow. Guess I should start taking my own advice, hmm?"

BrentM's ignoring Uite case is scummy, and it feels scummy to me that Uite auto-matically seemed to assume Town reasoning behind it and didn't even mention that it was scummy. Blah blah some other interesting stuff was here.

...
Anyway, reading through your iso again, I see that you indeed looked at Lunatic early on, but your posts #22 through #54 focused primarily on DP. That's a huge part of your contributions, and is easily enough for me to call it tunnelling
...

It is not tunneling if there are good reasons for the case and the person pushing it isn't ignoring other cases to focus on it.

...
Answering for DP was bad, and judging by #16, you were already aware of this. It also seemed like you were defending him, which was odd.
...

...Is this in reference to my post that was basically answering for DP with "He said it 'cause you and him are scum"? 'Cause that was the opposite of defending him.

...
If you're referring to your isos #8 and #17, I wouldn't exactly call that a solid case. Pretty much all of it boils down to you calling him an asshole, which I think is justified, but not exactly scummy from him.
...

There was also the fact that he was nice and perfectly understanding about people voting on him for lurking in his other game on this site, and his having the exact oppisite view in this game. Also personal attacks are not pro-town in the slightest, and are in fact a classic technique of those who know that their position in an argument is wrong (the arguement being "You are scum lunatic" "No I am town") but do not wish to lose the argument.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Hmm, I feel like I should do one of those "Opinion on everyone" posts right now.

LlamaFluff:

LlamaFluff has been decidedly neutral this whole game. And by nuetral, I do not mean "gives null tells", I mean he has been literally neutral to most of the goings on in this game. Slight scum read for this neutrality.

Tanstalas:

Hm, I have a completly neutral tell on Tanstalas for some reason. I am going to ISO him now.

Hm, Neutral read from 1-28, iso 29-30 give me a minor scum read. Everything else feels neutral.

Pinewolf:

I believed him early about the language problem and had him as a minor town tell back then, but the flaking on the game right as he stoped having to defend himself gives him a minor scum read.

MirrorIrorriM:

Hasn't done much recently, but my minor town read on him from before still stands.

singersinger:

Got a town read on her. Gives good arguments and didn't push for a lynch on anyone when it probably would have been possible to end the day early when she joined in.

VOT:

Left the game, null tell, now irrelevant. Not sure why I'm even including him.

BrentM:

Has a small town tell on him from his actions early game, but lately he has moved to scummy with his whole "We should hammer them and it is suspicious that you will not, grrr!" Minor scum read. (I have so many of those)

DavidParker:

Blatantly refuses to answer questions, instead prefering to: dodge wildly, say the questions are stupid, distract people by making cases on others, and various other scummy things. Has admitted to playing anti-town but doesn't seem to want to change how he plays at all. Major scum read.

lunatic:

Lurks, abandoned the game. His meta says some interesting stuff. Insults people for seemingly no reason, gives very little reason for any of his tells. Scum read.

Uite:

Hm, had a minor scum read on him, but reading his ISO has changed it to a neutral read. You using tunneling where I would use focusing, my read on lunatic, and a couple other things were making me see you as scummier than you actually are.

Oh, and to answer your post Uite:

...
well sorry I haven't been posting very much, you see I have a life.
...
King: voted for me so I'm a little biased. P.S.

he's a dick

BrentM: Seems like the

biggest douchebag EVER!!!

and a little scummy with a hint of noob

Mentioned the subtle "I have a life" insult in my early case against him.

@Brent: I'm sorry I think we got off on the wrong foot...........

I don't try to pick on people on the lower level side of intelligence.

It's like starting a battle of wits with an unarmed man, but I just couldn't resist.

And I don't wanna comment on your case against Llama until he responds.

Sorry, I didn't think of the changing reads thing, even if I am basically just answering the question by saying that the person is scum.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

@King, I do see how you can see that, but I firmly believe our best bet is to lynch DP or Uite. We have been back and forth on this plenty of times and rehashing will do us no good. I am trying to get us to make a decision and move on with it

I disagree, we have not been going back and forth with Uite at all yet. He has not been in the game for nearly enough time for the discussions with him/involving him to qualify as useless rehashing. If he was still lunatic then it would be so, but he isn't, he's Uite.

Totally agree with the DP part though.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

btw, Uite, did you claim?

Wait, what? Why are you asking this?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Yeah, Pine should stay. It's not like most of the rest of us arn't gonna be V/LA around christmastime and a bit afterwards anyway.

...Did anyone else have a little light in their head say

scum

when they read Uite's V/LA post?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
King, you seem to be leaning more and more toward Uite-scum...what are your reservations?

DP is scummier as a whole than lunatic/Uite, and Uite hasn't posted enough stuff yet for me to be that confident of my read on him.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

My big reason for sticking with a DP lynch is that he is playing terribly. Both of them are pretty good lynches, but the fact that DP will likely continue to flail around and refuse to answer questions tommorow regardless of the flip of Uite means he will almost certainly be lynched Day 2. If he is town I want his lynch out of the way and everyone's reactions to his flip and the stuff regarding him earlier in the game analysed and whatnot,

including

Uite's reaction.

Uite will likely continue giving us ligitimate information, scum/town tells (on him), as well as good arguments and accusations (or at least better than DP's) into Day 2, DP will likely not. My current read on Uite isn't a very good one and I believe if he continues to post and talk I will be able to get a better read on whether or not he is scum, but due to V/LAness he will be unable to give any more reads or arguments for the remainder of the day, and I wanna hear them.
DP is also a bit better as an information lynch since he has been talking and accusing people and whatnot for much longer than Uite (and lunatic didn't do much of anything).

Well, theres my reasoning. If you don't understand something please point it out.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Nice randomg Gifs.

Merry Christmas to all!

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Bluh, random*

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Huh, I thought for sure either myself or Llama would die last night. Oh well.

So hey I am just on the end of recovering from being sick so I am going to tactically avoid revealing my fever-addled mind's thoughts until tommorow when I can be a bit more confident in my sanity.

Ok, no I'm not. Llama's sudden flip-around on Pine is scummy. Also he misspelled my acronym.

Also see, trust my town reads. In single faction games they tend to be very accurate.

I don't like this quote, give us a reason to trust 'em or no deal.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
@Post 141 (first dual 3+ wagon)

Pinewolf (3) - tans, DP, Mirror
Uite (3) - KTS, Brent, Llama
Singer (1) - Pine
Not Voting (2) - KTS, Uite
...

Look at this again and you will notice a problem with it. :/

Also I think the scum didn't off any the obvious targets in order to avoid getting stopped by the docter that may or may not exist.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

So I was just reading Llama's case against singer when I noticed that this part:

...
but I'd rather get rid of someone who

wasn't contributing

, but still acting scummy, than

someone who was, and could potentially get better reads off later

. Since you're all caught up now, I don't really see a point in keeping my vote off of you

MAKES NO SENSE.

Uite WAS contributing! He was quite clearly both contributing and going to contribute more later. Heck, the whole reason I was voting DP wagon instead of Uite wagon at that point was that Uite could still change my mind and give more opinions on stuff, while it was quite clear that DP was never going to change his play and would continue to refuse to answer questions for the remainder of the game.

So yeah, I'm gonna vote 'cause of this.

VOTE: singersinger

[KingTwelveSixteen]

We lost two people, now there are only 7.

Lynch happens when half the people, rounded up, agree. 7 / 2 = 3.5 rounded to 4.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Nothing interesting is happening to talk about. Probably because nobody is talking. :/

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Hello Concission.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

UNVOTE

Gonna get some sleep now and post something when it isn't 6:30 in the morning and stuff. Don't hammer nobody yet mr.
...
Whatever your name is. SLEEP DEPRIVATION.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

1. Llama you didn't answer this one.

...

Other votecount thoughts:

Pine is only has a shot to be scum if Mirror and tans are town
Uite is probably town
Pine town should mean at least of Mirror, tans scum
Pine-singer partners? Mirror-tans?

Why? These are your thoughts, but I don't feel as though they should be left unexplained.

2. I do believe you

specifically

said not to do this earlier. Oh wait, quick ISO shows that you said something else.

...
Open question to everyone actually. Who do you think even works as a partner to me? I have to have a partner if I am scum. Think about that before you start blindly calling me scum here. Paying attention to where partners may lie is a great way to get a good read on people.

...
Not as sure if this is a tell, but its worth pointing out at this point that its a bad thing to do, and scum LOVE to do it. If you start searching for a partner before night, scum can manipulate the heck out of reads, and have better ideas of what good night actions are. Especially with Pine not being confirmed scum, if Pine flips scum, we just got two weeks of noise to deal with. Starting step B before step A finishes can cause problems.
...

...
Well, if scum knows they have a cop confirmed guilty on them the best play is to actually stop posting entirely if they know they cant get the cop lynched in return. Its fine to think about who partners are, I do that all the time whenever I push someone. I even think about it as scum when I make pushes of who I can make look like partners to who. Its a very dangerous thing to start discussing publicly though because it can easily be manipulated beyond reason. Its rare to get a 100% for sure scum flip though, ive been playing for over two years and I only have been more then about 80-90% sure of a scum flip just a few times
...

Please note that asking people to put their reads up for everyone to see would, in fact, count as discussing it publicly.
Oh, but if you want to know: Concission. You defended Pine a lot and right now Concission is bussing you in an attempt to get townie points, since he seems to think you are going to be lynched anyway regardless of what he does.
3. Oh hey just noticed this while ISOing you.

...
Pine

I have changed my tune on

due to not really liking the wagon that is forming on him. Most of the people that are voting him are people that I have somewhat of a scumread on, which is a sign of a mislynch in most games. This coupled with the reaction posts that Pine has been putting up make me thing that he is town.
...

You never said Pine was scum. Your previous posts on Pine seemed to imply that you thought he was town, what with the defending him and all. But after this "change of tune" you proceed to call him town for what I believe is the entire remainder of the game.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

This is my most recent though. Even though its about 8 months ago, havent drawn scum in a long time.

So your saying that THIS game your likely to be scum?

Thats a logical fallacy, just because a coin has flipped tails the last 72 times does not make it any more likely to flip tails again, the chances are still 50% for either heads or tails.

Unless its a double sided coin of course.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Umm...You only list 5 out of the 7 people still alive's votes. Who are those other 2 people voting for?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Hey, just going to point out that we now have 2 scum with 3 townies, therefor meaning that if ANY townie votes for another townie it could end the game if the scum are co-ordinated/lucky enough to double vote that person. So please don't go voting all wily-nily.

FOS:concission

whats with the hammer justification there? Suspicious.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...If I was going to talk to a hypothetical partner in crime I would have done it at night in the private chat thing the mafia gets. I would not wait till daytime to tell him so.

QFT means: Quoted For Truth.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Blah blah generic townie.

singer can go next.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

VT

Something about King's 'generic townie' statement makes my gut clench

Being generic townie is boring. I wanted to have a power.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
This is the second time in the game where I have noticed that you have 'skimmed' the game and failed to miss information.
...

Confusing double negative here, you meant to say he had missed information or failed to find it, right?

...
This game has gotten stale lately, I have been looking for hints of who may be scum, I have been dead wrong this entire game and am getting paranoid. I am almost 100% sure King is town, which leaves me with a 2/3 chance of hitting scum even with a random vote. If game activity doesn't pick up I may just flip a coin.
...

Please don't do this, choose whoever you find most suspicious, not who the

coin

thinks is most suspicious.

Also wait till we have like 1 or 2 day(s) left.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
I'm saying you could be writing a bunch of senseless stuff that doesn't convey information to seem active when really your lurking. You know if I were to just keep saying the same thing repeatedly or copy someone else's posts but word them differently; it wouldn't convey information, but it WOULD give the appearance of being active.
...

That sounds similiar to what you were doing day 1...

...
2 FOSes for Concission and 1 for Tanstalas. Before I get the wrong interpretation, do FOSes count like unofficial votes? Like you WOULD vote this person but something (LyLo in this case) is preventing you?

Don't have time to read your meta because of school n'stuff. Be back later.

Mine are not meant to be unofficial votes, I will say so when I would be willing to vote for someone, incidentally:

FOS: MirrorIrorriM

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I'm pretty sure King is town. I know I am town. I am almost sure than Concession and Mirror are probably scum

My gut is telling me if one of them is scum the other is.

*rolls the dice*

Vote: Mirror

Concission used to be pine.
Mirror and DP spend practically the whole first day trying to lynch pine.
Mirror/Concission almost certainly not scumbuddies.

Tans, I'm gunna pretend you didn't just do that. You can take that back now. There's still time.

Nope - Gonna leave it. if he is scum he won't get voted, you have already had the chance to vote and you didn't which makes me think you are town as well, like I said I am pretty sure King is town, so I think I finally got it right. Mirror and Concission scum. yup

No.

there could be a singer/Mirror scumbuddy pair! Did you even think of that possibility? On top of that if the scum think you are trying to pull a fast one with getting them to vote like that and give themselves away (WHICH IS INCREDIBLY RISKY) then they won't vote until the entire town is at each others throughts!

FOS, Almost a vote: tanstalis.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

@Singer:
1> No. The way he phrase it looks fake.

I was so certain he was going to be night killed but I guess mafia predicted that?

It's as if he knows the mafia knows there is the doctor despite the 50-50 chance. Thus, he is mafia.
...

You do realise I said like that exact same thing day 2 when I didn't get killed right? I'm pretty sure the majority of town still alive was thinking that was the reason.

Hmm, I need to not come on this site when I am drunk >.>

Unvote

The fact that you wern't steamrolled by votes though means that you are probably scum, or I am, or the 2 scum members wern't on at the same time since I put that vote up

What? You were on the site whilst drunk? Thats your excuse for that post? The lack of an apology of any sort for it as well makes me think that it is a lie you thought up to deflect suspicion. Also pointless explanation of all possibilities bluh bluh.

You were fine with flipping a coin for who to vote for even though people told you not to do it, add that to your poor reasoning with Mirror/Concission scumbuddies makes me think that you are very scummy right now.

(To be specific, that case makes little sense since Mirror was one of the two attacking Pine near constantly day 1, and I am thinking that if you are scum you would not put very much thought into which of the townies would be scumbuddies together, because you already know none of them are.)

You also just up and left after your drunkeness post, not posting any new content or anything, just "Oh your post is more exciting then the big fat nothing that is happening right now" which isn't very helpful to town.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...Why did you not respond to any of the other accusations? Concission has also not responded to my talking of me surviving.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I'ma gonna pull up this old quote of Llama's and totally butcher it to help me figure out who's scum, okay?

...

Spoiler:

How to read it: I will give some examples with that I see as key counts, with known alignments in green (hence why Brent/DP are shades of green)

@Post 141 (first dual 3+ wagon)

Pinewolf/Concission (3) - tans,

DP

, Mirror

Uite

(3) -

KTS,

Brent

,

Llama

Singer (1) - Pine/Concission
Not Voting (2) -

KTS, Uite

@Post 262 (Pine/Concission hits L-1)

Pine/Concission (4) - tans,

DP

, Mirror,

Brent

DP

(1) -

KTS

Llama

(1) -

Uite

Mirror (1) -

Llama

Not Voting (2) - singer, Pine/Concission

@Post 350 (

uite/DP

dual wagons)

DP

(3) -

KTS

, tans, Mirror

Uite

(3) -

Llama

,

Brent

, singer

Llama

(1) -

Uite

tans (1) -

DP

@Post 406 (

DP

wagon pulls ahead)

DP

(4) -

KTS

, Mirror, tans,

Brent

Uite

(3) -

Llama

, singer,

DP

Not Voting (2) -

Uite

, Pine/Concission

@535 (lynch)

DP

(5) -

KTS

, tans, Mirror,

Uite

,

Brent

Uite

(3) -

Llama

,

DP

, singer
Not Voting (1) - Pine/Concission

One of the biggest things I dislike is the transfer of the Pine/Concission wagon onto

DP

. Pine/Concission was proving to be a very difficult lynch and the entire wagon just went *poof* and showed up on a townie. I think this is going to be one of the bigger scum backed shifts in this game. The key people there were Mirror and Tans.

This same situation is again making me reguess my reguess on Pine/Concission again (I know convenient but votes say he is somewhat town)

Another spot I like looking is the

DP

wagon, where there is only one town player flipped on it. I would be stunned to find no scum on that wagon, again that is

KTS

, tans, mirror. I am eliminating

Uite

from this given that he was there for self-preservation and nothing else. The fact that he was on me for a while actually means he is probably town given the nature of wagons in this game, and how the like to shift around at a moments notice. Mirror choppyness im torn on, I really dont see him playing like he did unless he is scum with

Uite

or tans.
SO!

I think...

Town

Uite

Pine/Concission

Town with reservations

KTS

Sorta Town
Mirror

Who Knows
singer

Whats Left
tans

Vote tanstalas

Lucky for me, his record on voting is exactly what I would expect from scum, especially in the case that Pine/Concission is town. Check his long period on Pine/Concission, followed by a snap move onto

DP

who had just voted him, with no real intention to ever leave that wagon. I really dont call the singer thing a push off the wagon since that looked like it was going nowhere as it was occuring.

Reasoning? Tomorrow. Im tired now.

Wow, that was more useful than I thought it would be.

FOS:Mirror/tans duel team.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Everyone on town please make a note that Concission just totally ignored my rebuttle of his wierd "mafia guessing about docter" arguement.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Mirror did seem to sheep me a bit, I am thinking Mirror needs rope.

I'm not quite sure what me "needing rope" implies.
...

Generaly the word "lynch" refers to a mob of people ganging up on and hanging someone they all want dead.

So he is saying he thinks you are scum and should be lynched.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

@King: You merely comment on my argument. So I'd do a favor in return by ignoring it so as not to get stuck in Point Of View WIFOM.
...

What? Are you serious? You started the whole wierdo Point of View thing in the first place, my argument was that the whole thing was bunk because anyone, town or mafia, could simply read the first posts by the moderator and know there was a 50% chance of town having a docter, then act accordingly. Oh, and your argument is invalid anyway, since it relies on Mirror being both a docter and scum simultaneously, which is really stupid. Either that or you just phrased it really badly.

The fact that you just brush it off and try to say I'm the one who is starting a bunch of WIFOM is very suspicious.

1> What is Kings accusing me of? Making weird statement from gut?
...

Making a statement that is untrue in order to put suspicion on Mirror, that is a scum tactic, through-n-through.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

@King:
1> I stated that was not my point. There is a 50-50 chance of there being a doctor, not a 100%, which is what I implied from Mirror's wording, which is what you apparently do not agree with because you have different Point of View. And no, I'm not saying he's scum and doctor at the same time do you think I'm stupid? I'm saying his doctor claim looks fake because:

@ Concission : Didn't see the need.

My first target was KingTwelveSixteen and my second was also KingTwelveSixteen.

I was so certain he was going to be night killed but I guess mafia predicted that?

Which implies that he assumes that the mafia knows there is a doctor in the game and strives not to kill a Doctor protect. Now how could he know that? There's a chance that he's mafia himself bullshiting his way into clearing himself.
2> In case you haven't noticed, I put a question mark in there for a reason.
...

Mirror's statement also has a question mark. As in "I guess they figured any potential docters would protect him so offed someone else." Which is a perfectly good reason for the Mafia to avoid killing me, as they would have like a 40% chance of being blocked.

Also, what exactly would the townie alternative to that sentance be? The one about guessing that the mafia out-guessed him with protection role stuff, since apparently the current version is scummy.

Also as long as I am attackafying you here is something that just popped into my head: Why was I the second to claim? I do believe that everyone else thinks I am the "Obvious townie" in this game and it seems odd that you would choose me to pop-corn to.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Eeks, sorry for the triple posting, but I forgot to

Fos: Consission

in that last post. Now that Uite's flipped town, I'm gunna go back and look at where he was going with Pine...

It's been nine days, where is your promised ISO? Also, you seem to have been the least vocal and least content producing of all the people this final day, instead prefering to be non-comital in all posts. Sort of like a scum player attempting to coast through the final day to victory.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

So hey, I was just thinking. I can't really see Mirror/Concission scumbuddies at all, nor can I see tanstalas as scumbuddies with anyone but singer.

That pretty much eliminates all the different ways singer would be town, doesn't it? Anybody got some thoughts on this?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

@King:
1> A more townish mindset would not have mentioned the Mafia's Point of View at all.
2> Since when have I regarded you as the towniest? And it is because the others regard you as town that you should claim early because should you be mafia and decide to fake counterclaim a PR you will be believed in an instant.
...

Eh? Why wouldn't a town docter ever wonder how the mafia is outguessing who he is going to protect? That sounds exactly like what a docter should do.

2 makes perfect sense though.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

@King: Haizz, I have no problem with that line of thought. Just the phrasing of his words.
...

Then what would you have said then? 'Cause I probably would have said that the mafia was being jerks and not trying to kill who I was protecting.

P.S. We now officially have less than one week left.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

@King: Haizz, I have no problem with that line of thought. Just the phrasing of his words.
...

Then what would you have said then? 'Cause I probably would have said that the mafia was being jerks and not trying to kill who I was protecting.
...

Tick-Tock, goes the clock. You gonna answer?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

@King:

Haizz

, I have no problem with that line of thought. Just the phrasing of his words.
@Mirror: I didn't blame you for that. I pointed out your contradictory actions.

Wait, what does that word mean?

Also, I am considering hammering you right now, got any last words or arguments against your death?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Wait...doesn't he have two votes? And there are five of us. :/

I wouldn't assume the mafia know to out-guess the doctor protect. But whatever, I think Tans is scum with Mirror. Hammer me if you like King and Good Game to scum.

Vote:Tanstalas

And I wouldn't assume the enemy is stupid.

Also, AtE is all scummy lookin'.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I challenge your belief.
It's not about whether it's a townish thing to do at the moment, it's the obvious outcome of this scum push. Tans, Mirror and King will not change their minds despite my pleas and that's a fact.

Unvote.Vote:Concission

I'm town. And there's a slim chance you are playing dumb with me.

Idiot.
Self-hammering is a universal scum tell because no town would EVER, EVER do it. If you really just lost this game because "King, Tans, and Mirror won't change their minds" when you might have been able to convince some of us.

Oh wait, there are two scum. So really you only needed to convince me.

Singer, you voted me impulsively so you have as much blame to it as myself. Did you really think I was going to hammer myself if King or Mirror tells me to do so?

...
I can hammer myself if you stop paint me black in an annoying way.

I don't even know what you are saying in these. I never told you to self-hammer. I would have called that a horrible move for a townie. What the heck is with that paint me black thing?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

IF. If they told me to hammer myself and votes me, it would be conclusive evidence that they are scum.

Nobody told you to hammer yourself. Nobody would ever tell you to do that unless you are scumbudies with them and they want you to die quicker so as to stop them from being found out.

And they would do it via quicktopic.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

So you are scum.
*Throws chairs at Tans*
@Singer: The moment Kings or Mirror come in, they would hammer anyways.

FYI: I was going to wait for you to make an argument against your lynch other than "I am town, trust me on this one. "

Because that is a horrible argument.

Oh yeah, and you could tell I wasn't going to blindly hammer in Lylo because

I didn't do it in my post right before you said you would self-hammer.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

"Any last words" - Isn't that what anyone says before they kill. It's rhetoric. You weren't waiting for what I have to say, you were waiting to hammer. YOU WOULD NOT CHANGE YOUR MIND over what I say. Seriously.
@Singer: I DID NOT LOSE THE GAME FOR THE TOWN. If I did not hammer myself, you and those scumbags would be doing it for me. And what's more they obtain the enjoyment of doing so.

...What? What way to lose the game for town is more blatant than self-hammering in Lylo?
'Cause I can't think of any.

Also I believe my specific words were: "Any last words or arguments against lynching you?"

Don't assume you know for sure what people are thinking. Ever.
You will almost always be wrong.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
got any last words or arguments against your death?

There, thats the copy/paste version.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

That is correct. I have nothing more to say, even since you tell me "any last words" because I have stated all of my thoughts and arguments since Tans voted me. You didn't believe it. Town lose. Period. It's simple as that.

Regardless of Mirror's scumminess, your argument against him was still pretty bad. It is basically the doctor's job to guess what the scum are going to do with their kill.

And "Don't lynch me I'm town" is still not a good argument. :/

[KingTwelveSixteen]

In order:

It's not just the fact that you guys share the same voting paterns, but rather you seem to be following tans ( always vote behind tans ) in the wagons. This coincides with Tans-SE + Mirror-Newbie scum team.

This one is sheeping me sheeping Llama.

...
@Tans: You vote me immediately after you say Mirror needs vote or am I missing something? Have you looked at Pine/Mine IsO, do you know what is scummy about it? because from the way I see it you are not making an argument, you are making an empty statement. If you are town, please unvote now. Though it is more likely you are scum with Mirror, who is trying to act like he's patient while his words betray his eagerness to get me lynched.

Actually, Tans vote for Mirror earlier on imply that Tans might be town.
...

Tans-IMPORTANT: Though your vote brings about critical information, please Unvote and discuss before we lynch anyone

...
@Tans:
Unvote now. Your response reeks of buddying.
...
At this point, with everyone having their chance to catch up on the current situation but no vote for me and Tans refuse to unvote increases the likelihood of Tans being scum and his partner just waiting to hammer.

I wouldn't assume the mafia know to out-guess the doctor protect. But whatever, I think Tans is scum with Mirror. Hammer me if you like King and Good Game to scum.

Vote:Tanstalas

Oh, by the way? You never did answer my question

...
Then what would you have said then? 'Cause I probably would have said that the mafia was being jerks and not trying to kill who I was protecting.
...

'Cause your huge argument against Mirror seemed to stem from the fact that he apparently said the thing about mafia guessing..."scummily."

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Pffft!

So hey, I was just thinking. I can't really see Mirror/Concission scumbuddies at all, nor can I see tanstalas as scumbuddies with anyone but singer.

That pretty much eliminates all the different ways singer would be town, doesn't it? Anybody got some thoughts on this?

Darn it!

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I was distracted by someone continuing to attack Mirror and saying he was being scummy for acting like a doctor. And then someone self-hammered.

Also nobody had any thoughts on it.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I am not surprised whatsoever at the ease of lynching DP. He was acting so scummy it was ridiculous.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

You insistently asked me not to ignore you about the Mirror doctor claim though I insisted it depends on each person's point of view on it. Then you suspect me for AtE or whatever.

Your point of view on it is that it was scummy for a docter to try and guess who the mafia would kill.
Mine is that the docter's job is to guess who the mafia are going to kill.

You also still havn't answered the question of: what would YOU have said in that position?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...Wow, I think you getting drunk actually made you seem more town in the end.
That is so bizarre.

(Please don't drunk post in future games.)