Newbie 1045: Christmas in Newbieville! (Mafia Win!)

[Glass]

Hello guys, sorry was busy today so I didn't have the chance to post yet.

Anyways, do we typically just vote randomly on the first day?

And @ ender: who are these "suspicious people" you talk about?

[Glass]

I think that the fungrus FOS is offtrack, the only reason I see that he is scummy is because he didn't vote ender who tried to vote no one (which a newb can make the mistake of doing). Also, since Mr. Bump was associated with fungrus that would make ender maf because fungrus did not vote for him (a mafia would have no problem jumping on a townie making a newb mistake), it would make fungrus maf, and it would make Mr. Bump maf.

3 != 2

Although I am slightly suspicious of ender atm (and no this is not a omgus) because of his quick changing in votes and asking me to gather my own analysis on the situation; saying that there are "scummy people" while telling me to find them myself.

[Glass]

Confusion is not a scumtell.

^for why not to vote someone who does something "scummy". Being unaware of how the game functions is not scummy.

unvote

I disagree, Thor. Fungrus isn't quite as scummy as MrBump. Take a look at how he points out something to be targeted (Fungrus' questionable attack) and dismisses it by voting elsewhere. As it stands MrBump is scummy, and Fungrus too by association.

VOTE: MrBump

^And the part of Fungrus and MrBump being scumbuddies came from this.

[Glass]

Vote: Fungrus

He called something pro-scum but decided *not* to vote anyone because...the person who did the pro-scum thing might be a newbie?

*is a newbie

The quick change of votes is a pretty weak scumtell as, generally, scum want to lynch somebody.

^dont these two statements contradict each other? Fungrus = scum for not voting, but scum wants to lynch.

You'll note of the experienced players I'm the only one who hasn't changed my vote yet - it's normal to be vote hopping at this stage as you try to get wagons up and running and pressure people.

So why haven't you been changing votes? I am rather curious about this.

[Glass]

@ender: I have played mafia at other various places, this is just the first time I searched for a forum that specifically plays it.

Anyways, the point of my post:

@Napher - what's your read on Glass at the moment?

Just curious about why you ask someone, who had made two posts prior to you asking this, what they think about me specifically. It seems to me that this question can only mean one of three things:

1. You want to get people who haven't been talking involved in discussion.
2. You find me scummy and, without calling me out, are trying to find support among others.
3. You find Napher scummy and, without calling him out, are trying to drag more posts out of him to increase your evidence against him.

I think that number 2 or 3 are the most likely since it's not really your job to include everyone, you probably would have asked fungrus as well if that were the case. Whichever of us you find scummy you clearly don't have enough evidence to FOS us without being seen as scummy yourself.

At least, that's my interpretation of that question.

[Glass]

You're right, the reason that I have not put anyone as scum yet is because I cannot see enough scumtells right now to pursue any single individual; Saying that someone is scum when I can't really back it up is a good way to look scummy myself.

Although if I was forced to say who I thought was the scummiest right now I would say Thor, unfortunately I don't really have much reason for it besides the fact that I find him scummier than everyone else (although ender may be pushing the newbie card too far). Not to mention I don't really have a read on most people so I'm just trying to spark communication.

@lol at vote mistake

[Glass]

@Napher

As long as they are newbies they can use the newbie card, whether or not we believe them is a different story.

[Glass]

Of course, if you believe that one of these newbies is a newbie maf and not a newbie town, feel free to fos them as you would anyone else.

[Glass]

Do I see an omgus? And no, that was not a question but simply an observation.

[Glass]

You also make it seem as though I jumped on a bandwagon calling you scummy right after Mr.Bump did when in reality I only said that after I was questioned who I thought was scum.

[Glass]

An omgus is when you fos/vote for someone because they fos/vote you. How this applies to you is pretty clear as you jumped on my ass right after I said I thought you were scummy.

How is it scummy? Because it shows you have no reason to fos the person, you should not omgus as town because it is very probable that the person fosing you is a townie (if you did not think they were scum prior to the fos), thus it is better to try and lynch someone who actually looks scummy instead of someone who simply voted you. Mafia on the other hand have no reason not to omgus.

it does seem interesting that within a page of Mr. Bump expressing uncertain doubts about me that he can't define you leap out with a scumlist...of one player.

I did not "leap out" with a scumlist, I was simply replying to ender's request. And I can see how you see a connection between the events, but I can assure you that they are unrelated. If I were to fos Korts right now would it make anyone who foses him in the future scummy? I don't believe so.

[Glass]

Why do you feel a need to justify who asked you to list your reads now?

Because if I had simply said: "Thor is scummy" without explanation it would have made me look scummy; making it appear that I was only doing so because Mr.Bump had.

Is the 'jumping out' commentary making you uneasy? Do you think if ender hadn't asked you for your reads you *would* look scummy?

I think the first question is rhetorical, so to answer your second question: Yes, I believe it would have been scummy as stated above.

[Glass]

I think the first question is rhetorical, so to answer your second question: Yes, I believe it would have been scummy as stated above.

Wooosh! Thank gawd he asked you then, eh?

As a question - you apparently have no suspects other than me, what are you doing to get me lynched and/or discover if I am really scum? I'll admit I'm pressuring you, and you're responding to that, but I feel zero pressure towards me from your end and that's making you look really scummy to me. What's up?

@Mr. Bump - my advice is to try and figure out why your gut is twigging to me, until you do that you and others won't be able to assess the case. You need to be able to assess the gut reaad to decide if it's valid, and you need to be able to explain where it's coming from if you want any support that isn't Glass'

I'll also note, that if you dislike my play but aren't reading me clearly enough to notice what I'm saying about my positions and votes then I, quite frankly, consider your gut read absolutely meaningless as it's coming from made up assumptions in your own head that are ignoring what I'm doing.

LOL it's not like I was itching to fos you and just waiting for an excuse to do so.

I am not doing anything to get you lynched besides getting you to talk more, the basis for my fos is not a powerful enough for me to want you lynched yet.

[Glass]

You are correct, I have no desire to lynch someone three pages into the game because I think it is too early to accurately determine who is scum (especially with most people not posting). I have no control over who posts and when so there is not much that I can do to change the situation.

---

MrBump (1): Korts
Fungrus (1): Thor665
Mr. Flay (1): Fungrus
Leopold (1): ender241
Thor665 (1): MrBump

Not voting (4): Leopold, Glass, Mr. Flay, Napher

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!
Deadline is January 14th, 2010 at 4:00PM.

[Glass]

So you plan to sit around and hope someone claims scum? Clearly there should be a proactive way you can get reads, yes?

I don't see you doing much besides pestering me either.

Also, why is page 3 less likely to have scumtells than, say, page 10?

I never said that, I was saying that there are far more scumtells in 10 pages then there are in 3.

[Glass]

I've called people scum. I've called people town. I've asked questions and seem to even indicate that answers to those questions will affect my reads. At the very least I'm faking doing more than you, and there's a fair chance that I'm just actually doing more than you.

Indeed you are faking doing more than I:

-I have not seen you call anyone town, please indicate where you have.
-You've called people scum (fungrus, Mr.Bump, me) but you have skipped over ender????? In fact you haven't said a word about ender throughout the entire topic despite all the mistakes he's been making, yet you jump on me with so little as: "OMG GLASS "ATTACKED" ME RIGHT AFTER MRBUMP", I also noticed that you only said that your "scum-o-meter" went off on Mr.Bump after he fosed you (under the disguise that unvoting ender is somehow scummy)
-I too have been asking questions, your point?

I am pestering you, but it is also for a reason. You seem to be tossing up your hands and saying 'nothing to do for the scumhunting till X pages have happened and I'm trying to understand why you believe that and also maybe get you to consider what number X is.

You are once again twisting my words; it is not that there needs to be so many pages before scumhunting can begin, but I cannot fos somebody who I have no read on (Korts, Leopold, Flay, Fungrus).

[Glass]

1. Called Bump townie the same time I called you scummy.
2. Why is ender scummy? Frankly I have a town read on him so there's not much point in me calling him scummy, is there? (also I cited Bump as scummy for the way he unvoted ender and it had nothing to do with him suspecting me)
3. You may be asking questions (though actually I don't really think you are, other than rhetorical ones) but you certainly don't seem to care about or analyze the answers.

1. The same spot where you called him scummy? So how exactly is Mr.Bump both town and scummy? (and yes this is an actual question, not "rhetorical" like all my questions are apparently)
2. I didn't say that ender was scummy, but it seems that you are commenting on everybody except him.
3. hmmmm, I guess you're right, I have only asked a few questions. But the one's I do ask I care about the answers.

So we're back where we were. You have no reads, nothing has happened to give you reads, and you choose to do nothing about it. What am I getting wrong and what is your proactive solution to the problem of having no reads?

I have reads on bump, Napher, ender, and you, but you are the only one that is standing out as scummy atm from my eyes. I am currently relooking through people's posts if you must know what my "proactive solution" is.

[Glass]

I find that you are trying to manipulate Glass's words in order to make him seem more scummy, which is a very scummy thing to do IMO. Glass didn't want to lynch you right away however you made it seem like he was hoping for a no lynch.

I said nothing of the sort and didn't mean to imply it either. I was saying that he appeared to not be scumhunting or trying to improve his reads on other players at all - which is a much more serious accusation in any case.

I have been scumhunting and improving my reads, but I do it in a different way than you. You seem to do so by questioning people while I prefer to do so by writing out my thoughts, which I believe I have done quite a bit of.

In any case, I have a much better read on you now.

You did say, however, in giant prose wailings with multiple exclamation points that it was super strange that I hadn't been pressing on ender (despite the fact that now you are claiming to have a town read on him as well) why do you think I should have been suspecting him if you also thought he was town? I'm very confused by this.

Not saying that it is scummy, I am just making note of it because I had just realized at that moment that you never talked about ender. Does that mean you find everyone you talk to scummy?

You have a read on Napher? How? Where?

Even though his posts are few and far in between you should be able to get a read on how he acts and reacts (although being what appears to be newbie might throw my read off slightly); he has actually been saying his opinions instead of Korts and Flay who I would really like to see post.

[Glass]

@Thor: why did you think fungrus was scummy at the very beginning?

I guess it might seem like a good idea to no lynch therefore I'll not vote for you even though voting for no lynch is inherently a pro mafia move.

From what I gathered it is because he called no lynching a pro maf move but did not vote ender, but he was just letting ender know not to do that, so why is it scummy?

[Glass]

Even though his posts are few and far in between you should be able to get a read on how he acts and reacts (although being what appears to be newbie might throw my read off slightly); he has actually been saying his opinions instead of Korts and Flay who I would really like to see post.

So you think he's town because he's stated his opinions?
I don;t feel like you're answering my question - why do you have a town read on him?

We'll revisit your read on ender when I have a better feel for where I stand on Fungrus and Korts. I am not content with the current situation there but want to re-look at it before I start randomly screaming for your lynch.

As for my scum read on Fungrus; I've written out an explanation for that 2-3 times now. Did you miss it? If you didn't miss it could you please tell me what part(s) you don't understand - otherwise all I'll end up doing is writing the same basic logic in the same way again.

Wow, way to misinterpret what I said.

I never said I had a town read on Fungrus; you asked where I got my read on him from, and I responded accordingly.

So whats your issue with my read on ender?

@Glass - it's not that he didn't vote him, it's that he called his actions scummy and didn't vote for him. If you have no reads on anyone and then someone does something scummy what reason is there to not vote them? I submit that there really isn't one

That's the explanation that you said, but you disregarded fungrus's justification of not voting him. Fungrus did not believe that it was a scummy move by ender but he believed that voting no one in this setup is good for the mafia, and ender clearly did not know that. So I see no reason as to why fungrus is scummy for informing ender it is unwise to not lynch. Not to mention that this is based on the fact that Fungrus did not vote someone they found scummy, yet here we stand here without you voting me.

You clearly seem to think of me as scum, so for convenience sake can you explain exactly what makes me scummy? I'm sure it would be more convenient for other's as well as for me to explain anything.

[Glass]

Does that mean you find everyone you talk to scummy?

That was an actual question btw.

[Glass]

This is an especially funny quote to me - because I wasn't talking about your read on Fungrus and never asked about it either as I recall we were talking about Napher. Do you think I misinterpreted your read on him? If so - specifically how. If you really think I was misinterpreting you about Fungrus I'd like to hear that as well. You're calling me "misinterpreting" when I would call everything I've been doing "trying to understand what you are saying" and I rather feel the conversation is going like this;

You: I believe A!
Me: Why do you believe A?
You: X! X, damn your eyes!
Me: So...X-1?
You: Screw you, why are you bringing up B!?!
Me: Um...I thought we were talking about A, what is this about B?
You: X you dithering, drooling nicompoop!
Me: So...wait, B is X?
You: Misrep! Why aren't you talking about C?
Me: ...I hate you.

I'll admit I laughed. Sorry, I typed in Fungrus instead of Nepher since I was going to talk about him later in my post and kind of got ahead of myself, anyways...

So whats your issue with my read on ender?

I've already said it. I really am beginning to wonder if I'm typing in a strange dialect you don't understand. As previously noted; you asked why I wasn't scumhunting someone you had a town read on in what appeared to be a case of redirection attempt on your part.

Simply because you were talking to everyone but him, which is why saying that you have a "towntell" on him seems bogus to me. Also, me having a towntell on someone does not mean everyone does.

I have already explained why I have not moved my vote yet, Mr. Bump understood it, why don't you?

Because you want to get a reaction out of him? Don't think that's working for you mate.

Second off, whether or not you agree on my scumtell on Fungrus doesn't prove or disprove that it is a valid tell. I consider it a valid tell, decide whether I am doing that because I am brilliant, stupid, or scum, but don't just act as though the tell is invalid in my belief system unless you just want to always lynch people whose playstyles you disagree with.

Since when did I say I didn't like your playstyle? That was Mr.Bump.

Already done to an extent - but frankly unless I'm actively voting you it's not advantageous to work up a case on you and drum up support.

So that either means you really have very little on me to actually post or you find someone more scummy than me atm, which I find hard to believe after you said that you talk more to people who are more suspicious to you.

[Glass]

The quick change of votes is a pretty weak scumtell as, generally, scum want to lynch somebody.

I feel zero pressure towards me from your end and that's making you look really scummy to me.

This is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't moments.... Unless I'm missing something?

[Glass]

You keep dodging and weaving around stuff and bringing up other players in your answers. Good deflection from my stated issue.

I don't see what's wrong with bringing up other players in my answers, and I do not see what I "deflected" since I am pretty sure your point was that I am trying to lynch you because I don't like your playstyle and I'm not trying to lynch you and I don't not like your playstyle.

But apparently I deflected some BIGGGG issue here.

Town want to lynch somebody too. You're taking a discussion of why something doesn't qualify as a scumtell and making the presumption that the opposite does qualify as a scumtell - that is not an accurate conclusion. Your lack of scumhunting is a scumtell however.

What makes you think I am not scumhunting? And what makes you think everybody but me is scumhunting?

[Glass]

Regarding why I am not trying to lynch you: throughout this conversation I have came to the conclusion that you are most likely town. If you really want me to post a long post as to why that is I will do so. (inb4 you say I'm deflecting) The conversation is really only going in circles of you saying: "You're not scumhunting and you're not trying to lynch" and me saying "I am trying to scumhunt, and I am trying to come up with a likely suspect". Although I understand that you are trying to get the conversation going to get other people to talk, it does not appear to be working, and yes you appear to be stubborn, I will give you that.

[Glass]

Well, I agree that this is going nowhere. I'll post when I'm not on my phone (tomorrow some time, slightly busy ATM)

[Glass]

I know we need to end this, but I feel that I need to respond since I'm getting discussed here:

I stopped it a while ago when I announced I was waiting for Fungrus and et al, the last two or three was because Glass started asking questions and then he broke off the conversation because I think the answers worried him

I broke off the conversation because it was not going anywhere, especially since I had a town read on you after that, but you can see it however you want.

So...he wants to know why I haven't called someone he has a town read on scum...??? Looks like a blatant deflection attempt and none of it makes sense from a logical perspective, you're going to demand someone investigates a player you think is town?

...Just ignore that I have said (at least 2-3 times now) that I was asking for why you haven't talked about ender since you were talking about everyone else. I did not demand that you investigate them, I simply asked why you had nothing to say to ender; that would be me investigating why you have not investigated ender.

And it actually does make sense from a logical perspective (at least for me) because if I assume that you were mafia (which at that point I did) then asking a question about why you were seemingly ignoring ender is just trying to improve me read on you (apparently Thor is the only one allowed to ask questions ) saying that I had a town read on ender was completely irrelevant.

@Glass - what do you think of your argument between yourself and Thor?

I did not think of it so much of an argument as a discussion; I thought that it helped me gather a good read on Thor and was therefore worth it, even if it did make me look scummy in his eyes.

After a while it was getting pretty pointless though.

[Glass]

I have my vote for precisely the reasons Thor just listed, he's deflecting things and not answering direct questions.

You may see something as a deflection which I do not, but don't lie and say I am not answering questions. I have answered every single question Thor asked me.

I care more about lynching the Mafia than diverting attention away from me. We have seven town members against two Mafia members. We need to concentrate on taking out Mafia. If we're being voted, defending yourself is okay, but I'm not going to spend my time defending myself.

You're not going to defend yourself even though you have 3 votes on you? (Not to mention that the above quote looks like defending yourself) Also, if you are town diverting attention away from yourself and lynching mafia go hand-in-hand.

Anyways, I want to see you spend time defending yourself.

VOTE: Mr.Bump

[Glass]

BTW noone else vote Mr.Bump for a bit please, he's currently at 4 votes so if you vote for him he will be lynched and I will automatically assume whoever voted when I specifically said not to vote is mafia unless Mr.Bump turns out to be mafia.

[Glass]

@Glass, why did you place the L-1 vote on me, despite the fact you said earlier you weren't too suspicious of me (IIRC, anyway)?

I want to see you spend time defending yourself.

My suspicions have raised slightly, but besides that defending yourself can/will help you if you are town.

Also, what's your read on Thor?

throughout this conversation I have came to the conclusion that you are most likely town.

^Talking to Thor

Anyways, I am going to be gone the rest of the night/day depending on where you live, so have fun hunting scum ppl.

[Glass]

@MrFlay

Actually, he is at L-2 right now and I would prefer that he did not claim just yet.

[Glass]

@Korts

Using the "newbie" argument in favor of MrBump does not really work as he looks as though he has played at least a few games of mafia prior to this.

Other arguments made against MrBump:

This last vote on Glass has shown me that you are just voting for whoever is losing this argument, first you were saying Thor was scum, now that he is winning the argument you switch over to Glass. So you are now my prime suspect

You said that you hadn't noticed that Glass suspected Thor right after you did, so that is why you voted for him. How you didn't notice that is beyond me, if you had been reading the convo at all I believe you would have noticed it.

Mmmm, hypocrisy. MrBump has been getting onto ender for vote-hopping, but he's on his third vote as of post 68.

That's about all I could find after a quick rereading.

@MrBump

Which two out of the three you are seemingly accusing are most scummy to you?

Napher comments only about himself, a defence, when he has precisely zero votes on him at last count.

This is an accusation against Napher, and this is completely untrue as he has attacked you in quite a bit in a few posts.

Wait, what? First of all, he says he won't change his vote until I am proven innocent, changes his vote the very next post, then says he doesn't want to hop on a wagon which doesn't exist.

(I think?) this is an accusation against ender, either that or you are stretching your evidence for ender being a newb out way too far as it is common knowledge

I have my vote for precisely the reasons Thor just listed, he's deflecting things and not answering direct questions.

accusation against Glass, and again I don't see where I didn't/refused to answer a question.

@MrFlay

Napher realized (after Thor told him) that it was a false dichotomy, but I do not think it is so much scummy as it is newbie. He had a slight town read on both of us before the discussion began if you check at #49 and #36

@Napher

What happened to this suspicion on fungrus?

Also I still suspect ender may be mafia but he isn't as suspicious as Fungrus, what he did may have just been something that a beginner would do as Kort pointed out.

[Glass]

-facepalm-

That is all.

[Glass]

Ok I understand it is past midnight, but if that is what you are like that late then wait until the next day to post. We are not going to lynch you in the 12 or so hours you would be gone.

Finally someone gets it.

I made one. Freaking. Joke. At the very start of the game. I've repeated myself over nine thousand times.

That's not why you're currently being voted.

@Whoever asked me about my FoS- I think Ender is cruising with his Newbie-status a little TOO much, to the point of overkill. But then again Glass has deflected questions.

Can someone PLEASE tell me where I have allegedly deflected questions? I thought all my answers were pretty straightforward.

But if I change my vote everyone will go like "OH CLEEEAAARLY HE IS CHANGING HIS VOTE TO BANDWAGON A NON-EXISTANT WAGON" despite the fact they all stuck up for Ender doing exactly the same thing.

O_o; I don't see why we would do that. Ender's case is very different, I didn't see ender bitching at you for changing votes so often.

Oh, claim, I'm a Vanilla Townie. Wup-dee-doo. It's past midnight, so I apologise if I missed and questions or anything out.

.....No comment......

[Glass]

Happy holidays! Catching up, will post shortly

[Glass]

he has very short not very informative posts and seems to be a total bandwagoner so VOTE: Fungrus

The irony is killing me.

The Flay wagon isn't going to take off, and I'm more confident in Fungrus-Scum.

So you are searching to make a wagon on anyone, regardless of if they are scum or not?

How is fungrus scummy again? Although ender did make a decent point.

VOTE: Mrbump if you want to be harsh i'll vote you, all i asked was a proper thankyou.

Please do not vote on a complete emotional basis.

[Glass]

VOTE: lateralus22

To get Mrbump off of L-1 and because this requires explanation imo.

[Glass]

@MrBump
I believe that ender was referring to me saying "the irony was killing me".

@ender
I don't remember napher saying that he was only posting to defend himself... I do recall MrBump saying that Napher only was defending himself, but I believe that point was refuted.

On the quoting: Do you mean a quote inside a quote, or two different quotes in one post?

[Glass]

Ok, I guess that makes sense.

UNVOTE: Lateralus22

@ender
Either copypaste or learn to html.

[Glass]

I am going to ramble on about my thoughts of the game so far, mostly to solidify my reads on individuals (and possibly propagate conversation), so you can easily tl;dr since I am probably not going to be saying anything incredibly insightful:

MrBump makes a joke before random voting, Korts misinterprets this joke thinking that he was speaking of fungrus instead of ender. Korts later says that MrBump is scummy for not giving an "optimal vote" to boost conversation, but then defeats his own argument by saying that MrBump is a newbie, surprisingly Korts never attacks Fungrus for the same thing he accused bump for.

Thor and I get into a rather long conversation over minuscule things (fmpov) and eventually it breaks apart; I find Thor to be town atm because the answers to my questions were reasonable and he seemed to actually find me to be scum rather than trying to find someone to get voted (as aggressive mafia do). Thor thinks that I am scum along with fungrus and Korts.

Fungrus is called scummy at the beginning for not voting ender (even though he is a newb and may not even know there was a RVS, I didn't until the bump started it). Fungrus goes around as being called scum for bandwagoning on bump, ender votes for fungrus (looking to be bandwagoning) but then realizes that he wanted to vote for napher. I have a slight scum read on fungrus, but personally think you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Ender has a newbie persona, but he may be overacting. Personally I think he is slightly town.

Napher gets called scum for defending himself when he has no votes (don't see how that's scummy), but I don't like how he is for apologizing for pretty much any little thing he gets called out on. He brings up the point of Bump switching votes during the glass-thor discussion and guns for him as scum. This gets him in a bit of trouble because he says that it seems that either me or thor is scum (which he quickly realizes is a mistake) but decides to vote for bump instead. I think that napher is slightly town atm.

Bump gets called scum for switching from voting thor to voting me during our conversation, making it look as though he is voting for whoever is losing the "argument". This gather's lots of momentum and bump goes to L-1 plenty of times but remains cool throughout it, unfortunately this is his first game here so there is nothing to compare it to. Bump goes on to say many untrue statements including saying he is voting me for non-existent reasons, making me think he is on the scum side, as you should at least know why you are fosing/voting someone.

Flay and Lateralus get into a short discussion where Lateralus votes for flay, but then realizing that the bandwagon is not going anywhere votes fungrus who he also finds to be scum for opportunistically voting bump. I don't have a very good read on either of them atm. Thor seems to think korts is scum for some reason I am unaware of, as I do not have a good read on him.

Overall I think that MrBump is scummiest by far, so

VOTE: MrBump

[Glass]

The only issue I have with MrBump is I have no idea who his scumbuddy would be if he is mafia.

[Glass]

I decided to re-read the whole thing between Glass and Thor. I don't know where my vote came from, which is where you probably all go "OMGZORZ HE'S LIEK CHANGING HIS VOTE AGAINZ", but really. I've been called out on it for three pages straight, I'd think if I was doing as you all said I would have changed it long ago. I'm not stupid enough to just vote for the person losing the argument. I was tryin/g to help and it was hard to get a thought in past their discussion.

That is a decent point, but it is also a wifom.

Wait, what? Defending yourself with no votes and a tiny, tiny suspicion is A-OK? I don't get it. Scum will defend themselves against a tiny bit, especially as a Newbie, as they are scared of getting found out. Well, from my past game, anyway.

I guess it depends on HOW you defend yourself. Just saying: "Oh whoops, sorry" i can see as scummy; but if someone attacks you with a slew of illegitimate arguments and you disprove them I do not see anything scummy about it.

Korts raises a good point there

I think that thor was just being his IC self and helping napher understand that what he did was bad play.

@Lateralus
I think that people are concerned over you switching votes from the person you find to be very scummy, especially since you haven't really made any arguments against fungrus that I recall, it makes it look like you are bandwagoning.

[Glass]

Im curious who MrBump's suspects atm.

[Glass]

Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it

QUOTES = OMG NAPHER DEFENDING HIMSELF ONLY

Napher - he's staying the same, he's said very little to add to this and all he's done is defend himself.

VOTE: Napher he's said already that he's only posting to defend himself making no contribution to the discussion

Napher's posts of just defending himself every posts I dislike.

Napher comments only about himself, a defence, when he has precisely zero votes on him at last count.

QUOTE FROM NAPHER

Ender is seeming slightly scummy to me, he is taking back his votes very often, so for now I am going to keep my vote on him.

Also I still suspect ender may be mafia but he isn't as suspicious as Fungrus, what he did may have just been something that a beginner would do as Kort pointed out.

I find that you are trying to manipulate Glass's words in order to make him seem more scummy, which is a very scummy thing to do IMO.

Now on to the next person I believe is scum. You have been changing your vote a whole lot this game, mostly in response to what every else is saying. You are just looking for a bandwagon to jump onto; however, I will admit that you were the first to accuse Thor. This last vote on Glass has shown me that you are just voting for whoever is losing this argument, first you were saying Thor was scum, now that he is winning the argument you switch over to Glass. So you are now my prime suspect VOTE: MrBump

It was the change from Thor to glass that really made me suspicious of you. You said that you hadn't noticed that Glass suspected Thor right after you did, so that is why you voted for him. How you didn't notice that is beyond me, if you had been reading the convo at all I believe you would have noticed it. Which is why you either hadn't been reading it even though you made a post during it, or you just went for whoever seemed to be losing and tried to make an excuse for why you made such a sudden change. Both of those are scummy things to do. I am still keeping my vote on you, as you are the only person I truly suspect to be scum.

Are we getting the point? The next person to say that Napher is only defending himself gets a searing hot icepick to their forehead. I am not saying that Napher is not scum, but at least use a reasonable argument.

I would love to see Napher + Flay + Korts posting more =D

[Glass]

This game is too scattered, top two suspects from everyone plz.

1. MrBump
2. Fungrus

Unfortunately I don't have a good enough read on many (napher, korts, dramonic), but I am pretty sure Thor is town if you look at his meta and because the way he acted during our discussion.

Napher is only in my "townish" section atm because MrBump is accusing him, and it did not seem like distancing to me.

I have a town read on ender, it has not changed for a while.

I have a gut feeling that lateralus is town, and his posts seem to be complimenting it.

[Glass]

MrBump:
Is basically playing the same as Ender, but has a wagon on him. Quid?

Hmm, good points. But still, Ender has used the Newbie card faaar too much. If Ender was anyone else, he'd be dead and we'd already be on Day 2. Just because he's a Newbie he's not dead yet. Thor, I'd like to see a bit more evidence.

^That is why there is a wagon on MrBump and not on ender.

[Glass]

[quote=ender]but going to UNVOTE: and keep to it even though i have a suspect in mind or people will start voting me for changing my vote..[/quote]
I'm pretty sure that if we were going to jump on you for changing your vote we would have done so by now. Also, if you have a reasonable reason to be voting said individual it could greatly help town. What I am getting at is don't be afraid to voice your opinion.

@Lateralus

Maybe you should voice your top 2 suspects as well? Still Fungrus and dramonic (mrflay)?

[Glass]

@MrBump Actually, I looked into ended and this is not his second game, the other game he is in he replaced someone after he joined this game. I also think that it is a cop-out to say that what you have been doing are simply newbie moves. There is also a difference between newb town and newb scum. @cirno touhou takeover time . More to come when I get home, can't do too much at school.

[Glass]

What is with your tunnel vision on me, Glass? I still don't understand your suspicions of me, or anyone else's. I've defended all I've done. You simply won't listen to my arguments >_>

Last I checked I am the only one voting you. I am actually not tunneling on you, but I do find you the scummiest. Let me explain my fos:

My primary reason for the fos is because ever since the Thor-Glass discussion ended you have been jumping from person to person trying to get the wagon off of you, often using false arguments. This started by attacking me, and then moving onto Napher and Ender. I personally see this as moving to an easier target to get people to lynch (as I recall you first voted Thor and then moved onto me during the discussion) and thus making it appear as though you do not care who is lynched as long as people are not voting you. Yes, you can argue that if you wanted to lynch someone you would be jumping on the fungrus wagon, but you find him town for some reason that everyone else is apparently missing. (care to explain why fungrus is town?) Personally I think it is because you want to get a lynch going to make it appear as though you are not bandwagoning.

After the discussion, MrFlay accused MrBump of "stoking the fire" (see post 122) between Thor and I, and it indeed seemed as though you wanted us to continue to argue by asking both of us what our read was on the other.

When you originally voted me (not during the RVS but after), you said that I was simply fosing thor because there was support for him to be lynched. After the conversation Thor explains why he thinks that I am scummy, and IMMEDIATELY misinterpret and argue that I am "deflecting questions" and "not answering questions". After realizing your mistake you pretty much said: "Oh, you're right" and you proceed to unvote me and attack Napher instead saying "Napher is only defending, that's scum material", I send a post explaining that he was attacking (in fact now that I look at it he was attacking ender and MrBump, so you two are the ones that should have noticed these attacks the most, yet you proceed to say he's only defending) but you seemingly ignore it until I essentially post the same thing a second time because you once again said that Napher is only defending. After that you once again say: "whoops" and vote for ender, due to process of elimination. So let me ask you; what about MrFlay? What about Korts? Since you haven't been posting your thoughts on them I can only assume you either have no read on them or you find them town. Which is it?

When I responded to your question on what my read on Thor is, you said: "whoops, I forgot you said that". Flay jumps onto this saying that you should have read that, and you suddenly change your story saying that you wanted an in-depth analysis of why I thought he was town.

So really, I think you are scum for:
1. Jumping on easier targets without valid reason
2. Making sooo many false arguments
3. Changing your story

Hopefully that answers your question and hopefully I didn't forget to mention something. If you want me to specify where I found a certain piece of information, I am more than happy to indicate the post numbers.

[Glass]

As such, I do not see how anyone else is more scummy than MrBump, if someone wishes to explain that to me how someone is scummier they are free to do so, but I am not seeing it atm.

[Glass]

Offtopic: LOL, there's just as many SEs as newbies in this game

It really isnt that long, but I will remember to add links and whatnot for next time since I don't really feel like going through my post again, typing in the argument again and posting various links on every point (it would probably just make the post longer).

If MrBump suddenly died and flipped town, here's what changes:

-Prior to him flipping town my brain is intact, after it is not.

Asking who my new suspects would be is a tall order... Give me a few mins to skim through the thread again.

[Glass]

I think that my main suspect would be fungrus for jumping onto the bump wagon without reading the thread, possibly with korts/circo/dram who (which I have said many times), do not have a good enough read to say one way or other.

[Glass]

Man I wish I was in a similar timezone to bump so we could talk more than 1-2 posts a day. Oh well, onto the links and explanations...

And sorry, when did I "attack" Napher? I didn't vote for him IIRC, I said he was a main suspect along with Ender.

Indeed, you did not vote him. But attacking =/= voting, we are perfectly capable of attacking someone without voting for them. (ex. Thor)

I don't see where I changed my story, care to link it?

Sure, I am assuming that you are talking about when you asked me for my read on thor but just in case I will also add where you changed your story about why you were attacking me:

post 120
In this post you apologize that you forgot that I said that Thor was town.

Your last post kinda stinks, as Glass has said repeatedly in the last 10-15 posts that he's reading Thor as Town for now.

I am asking for a full read, not just "He's town". A read as in "He appears town but could be easily be doing X to make us think Y".

This is directed at MrFlay's post 122 (unless you were directing this to someone else that I do not see) where you essentially say that you wanted a "full read" and not just for me to say that he is town. If this is the case, why did you not specify that in post 120? At the time you seemed to accept my answer that he is town.

NOW.... Onto where you changed your story about your reasons for fosing me:

[url="http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2693023"] Post 79. Notice how bump says that he foses me because i "fos'd thor directly after he did".

[url=http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2696288] post 113. How is that NOT changing your story?

I will proceed to type up a post about ender if I have time + motivation.

[Glass]

omg my urling failed. Dammit.

[Glass]

Hopefully it is still readable, if it isnt I will rewrite it with url + quote fixs (i messed up a quote as well it seems)

[Glass]

But Glass, why is MrBump scum but ender isn't even though they have been making similar newbie mistakes??

Well, that is a good question random person, and one that I should probably address. Although I personally do not think that MrBump and ender are making me the same mistakes, let me explain.

The first thing to look at is their very first post:

Alright, as there's a high chance of townie's being lynched first day, i'm going to VOTE: No lynch don't want to kill a fellow townie teammate now do i?

Simple newbie mistake, nothing town or scummy about it really.

RVS time:
VOTE: Glass

This is the first sign to me that MrBump is not a newb. First off he knows about random voting and knows the acronym. If what MrBump says is true about this being his second game the only explanation I can think of is that he was looking over the wiki/old games; something that ender clearly has not done. This means that MrBump should know better than to be jumping from person to person.

Just a taste of how MrBump and ender's case is different, I have a test tomorrow so I probably won't be able to post a wall today.


What I REALLY want to know is why korts defeats his own argument against mrbump. I am specifically referring to this:

Fungrus starts the game by explaining to ender that no lynching is bad. MrBump frames Fungrus' argument as "OMGSCUMSLIP, [ender] KNOWS THERE ARE TOWNIES" which, besides being an obvious joke, might be interpreted as MrBump calling Fungrus' argument fallacious. However, Bump's vote goes elsewhere, randomly, instead of going with the Fungrus vote that would logically follow either as a joke or a semi-serious discussion starter. This raises the possibility that Bump is either unconcerned with the level of discussion and the efficiency of scumhunting, or uncomfortable with placing a vote on a scumpartner. Hence Bump is somewhat scummy, and depending on his alignment, Fungrus may be slightly implicated as well.

People who say my case on MrBump doesn't hold any water are probably missing that my case on Bump was that he wasn't voting where it would've stimulated discussion better. Fungrus' alignment is irrelevant insofar as MrBump is concerned. If Fungrus is scum, Bump's reason to vote randomly could've been uneasiness at voting a scumpartner; if Fungrus is town, the reason could've been a lack of interest in scumhunting and thus a lack of insight into proactive voting.

A good counterargument would've been that Bump is simply inexperienced and doesn't see the difference between optimal and sub-optimal votes when regarding something else than actual scumminess. But apparently I couldn't spark even that kind of response, just general confusion. Eh.

[Glass]

And secondly, Glass. Your case on me is vote changing and my changing stories, right? THEN WHY IS YOUR VOTE NOT ON ENDER?!

More or less, yes. I see you pretty much copypasta'd the question that the "random person" said in my previous post, and I began to explain why, but I do see that it is possible that you were trying to appear not newbie at the beginning so people would take your opinions into account (in fact I also did the same thing).

He's doing exactly the same thing as me, just ten times worse, plus he's clearing OMGUS'ing me here, not to mention his slip, and finally his suspicions simply don't add up.

(inb4 headdesk) I personally do not think it was a slip, simply a mistake. Also ender does make a good point that voting for a scumbuddy is logical at times.

He's said time and time again he has a town read on me yet he's voted me three times or something. He's Mafia looking for a Bandwagon, and a reason to cast a vote there.

Orly? I don't see a point in the game where he calls you town, if you can find one, please show me. While searching for where ender said that, I did find this though:

Personally, i have a minor scum read on MrBump; but it's too early to know for sure so i'm not going to vote bump and that could possibly mean he's going to get lynched which, i personally, think it's too early for a lynch.

If he is looking for a bandwagon why vote you instead of, say, thor?

Look, every single one of his votes (maybe save one or two) are onto a person with a vote already, with barely any reason behind it. IIRC, he said it was either Fungrus or Napher (I forget which) he was really suspicious of, now he votes me?

IIRC you were right there with ender accusing napher of only defending himself, and I think you both jumped off after my post explaining that he was indeed attacking both you and ender throughout the game.

she's almost as dangerous as town near endgame as she would be as scum

I would say this about ender tbh.

[Glass]

UNVOTE: MrBump
I can see MrBump being a frustrated townie, but I have my eyes on you .

Hopefully we get a korts replacement soon because the deadline is creeping up on us.

[Glass]

Sorry but atm I think that ender is town and I would rather not lynch him.

[Glass]

@cirno
If you remove korts and fungrus from the equation my greatest suspect is MrBump, who I have already made my case for and clearly the rest of the town disagrees.

I can't see anything regarding korts or fungrus that has not already been mentioned due their lack of posts.

@Thor
I feel a fungrus lynch, but it is kind of scary because he might be inactive until near-deadline and then if he claims doc/cop there will be chaos.

[Glass]

VOTE: fungrus

I see the logic in that.

[Glass]

@Glass:

I'm confused. From what I recall, you only have a slight scum read on Fungrus. More recently, you have said that MrBump is your top suspect. Further, you've given some explanation as to why you believe MrBump is scum, but you've only mentioned in passing that you find Fungrus slightly scummy. Even so, you unvote MrBump because 'the rest of the town disagrees' and vote Fungrus. I can see how you might change your vote as a compromise to prevent an Ender lynch if you believe he is town, but the Fungrus wagon doesn't seem to have any more momentum than the MrBump wagon (and, in my opinion, it is even weaker). If you unvoted MrBump because you feel the rest of the town disagrees, does this mean you believe town will find a Fungrus lynch more agreeable?

Actually if you look back I said that fungrus was my #2 suspect, and I do believe that that ppl will find the fungrus lynch more agreeable; mostly because most ppl (from what I have seen) have a slight scum read on him because of that awful, awful post.

If the objective of town is to lynch mafia, then why not vote for the person whom you have most confidence in being mafia? Can I assume you would rather vote with town than vote for who you think is scum?

I think you answered your own question but: I wish I could vote for who I had the most confidence in being mafia, but if everyone did that and did not compromise there would be a pretty even spread and the mafia could outvote any small group of townies.

(ex. 7 players, 2 mafia. They all vote for who they think is mafia:
Townie A and B vote maf A
Townie C votes townie A
Townie D and E votes for townie B
Townie F and G vote townie D

Mafia can choose which bandwagon to go with, so clearly they would vote either townie B or townie D)

That means that there has to be compromise, if there isn't it is likely that no one will be lynched. I am willing to not vote for my prime suspect if it stops a lynch on someone who I believe is town and allows a lynch on my secondary suspect. I would rather lynch someone who I suspect than have someone I don't suspect lynched.

[Glass]

Oh shit, ender claimed while I was gone >_<

Anyways...

@cirno
I said fungrus was my second suspect in post 221.

Not too sure if I believe ender, mostly because I thought he was the cop...

also: inb4 fungrus claims cop

[Glass]

Also at vote count, I am voting fungrus not myself xD

[Glass]

@Glass: Your 256 is the biggest stretch I have ever seen. Because Bump knows about FoS that means he knows how to play properly?

Compared to ender though, he plays like a god. Clear your mind and look at MrBump's first couple posts, how many games do you think he has played before this? Now look at ender's, how many games do you think he has played before this?

MrBump and ender have been making the same mistakes but clearly MrBump knows how to play decently. That was the point I was making, If you disagree with that, so be it.

Nice Thor echo in 271

I really don't see what i echoed in 271???

276 is quite horrible. How would you know the rest of the town disagrees, about half the playerlist have not voiced opinions against a bump lynch, are you saying there is absolutely no scum possible in them?

Actions speak louder for words my friend. I argued and argued and argued, and votes were just leaving MrBump.

@Thor
I feel a fungrus lynch, but it is kind of scary because he might be inactive until near-deadline and then if he claims doc/cop there will be chaos.

And your alternative would be...? Not lynch him because he's lurking?

It was simply a comment, I was not opposed to lynching fungrus clearly.

The point of the game is not to please the players. It's to find the scum.

If my vote was the only thing that dictated who was lynched, MrBump would already be lynched. Let me give you an example of why I changed my vote:

dramonic is voting for thor, and he thinks that thor is the scummiest person. Unfortunately there is not any support for thor lynch, and it looks like lateralus (who dramonic thinks is town) might be getting lynched shortly, dramonic also thinks that lateralus may be cop and does not want a claim forced out of him. dramonic then sees that his second-most suspected person, we'll just use korts, is getting some support for a lynch. So the choice is to add pressure onto the korts and hope to get people off of lateralus or leave your vote on thor and watch lateralus claim and possibly get lynched. You clearly cannot think that the second option is superior to the first.

[Glass]

And yes, that plan failed. I didn't think that ender was going to claim so early.

[Glass]

Since my plan obviously failed, VOTE: MrBump for reasons i have previously stated.

There is ALSO the possibility that Glass is town, but that is not indicative of your alignment and buddying like he is to someone as town is not good play (barring masons which cannot be the case here), because he could be... let's just say it, asskissing, to a scumplayer, in which case he is a nuisance.

You forgot the possibility where I am town and I think that thor is town and making good points.

So, I don't really care who is lynched (except sweet Cirno), but I don't really like the Fungrus wagon.

I seriously hope you aren't being serious about the first part of that, hard to tell since the second part seems serious.

The Fungrus case. I went back and quickly skimmed/re-read to make sure. You're 100% correct. As soon as his name is mentioned or there's a new wagon he comes leaping in that this person is scummy for whatever reason. If everyone here truly is NOT going to bother lynching Ender, like Glass did, I will vote Fungrus.

More on my case for MrBump, seeing that the ender lynch is now not going anywhere he wants to jump on another bandwagon, but clearly it would look scummy doing it without a reason. Instead of reading back and seeing why fungrus is being voted he demands an explanation, and once thor comes out with one reason why fungrus is scummy and questions why MrBump is anti-wagon MrBump says that he will vote fungrus. Clearly he was looking for any reason to jump onto another wagon. He even uses the same wording as when he jumped from thor onto me.

Also:

I have a town read on Fungrus, so I'm not going to vote him, am I?

What gave you this town read on fungrus? What changed since you thought that he was town here?

I'm sure a lot more is addressed to me which I will look at in a second.

[Glass]

[clever plan]

So you unvoted MrBump so you could pressure Fungrus in order to prevent an Ender claim? I have a number of problems with this claim. First of all, when you unvoted you did not immediately vote Fungrus, but had to be convinced by Thor to do so.

I was thinking of the best way to proceed at the time when thor explained that the sooner that fungrus is pressured the better, if I had known that ender was going to claim so suddenly I would have voted him immediately and gotten right on making a properly prepared my argument against him.

Secondly, you did not do very much to either try to dissuade the Ender wagon or push the Fungrus wagon. Instead, you voted Fungrus and sat on it. Even when MrBump gave you a chance to explain why Fungrus should be lynched when he demanded an explanation of the case. Even when Fungrus finally showed up and you had a chance to question him directly.

1. You are implying that fungrus is going to be active after making one post, which, judging by his previous postings, I do not believe is the case.
2. If you check I was not on in between the time that MrBump asked for an explanation and when ender posted his claim, so clearly I could not explain why fungrus was being voted at that point. Basically you are saying that I am scummy for not being able to respond every minute of every day.

NEVER BEFORE HAS NOT TUNNELING BEEN SO SCUMMY.

[Glass]

Basically, if he WAS Doc, he wouldn't claim as he's the perfect red herring. No Mafia would kill him, he garners too much suspicion. Add to this your constant slips and scummy play, I don't believe you, Ender.

Although I disapprove of ender claiming so early I need to comment on this:

If ender was going to get lynched and he is doc, would it not make sense to claim doc? Not getting NK'd does not mean that he will not get lynched.

[Glass]

Also, why didn't you switch your vote back after Ender's claim? Why did you wait until he was at L-2?

Because changing my vote now or yesterday makes no difference. Why did you not unvote ender until Lateralus and fungrus unvoted?

[Glass]

You voted Fungrus to prevent Ender from claiming???
What the hell kind of logic is that?

I am pretty sure that it is sound, if you find a problem with it please quote me and say what does not make sense to you instead of simply saying that it does not make sense.

[Glass]

If the objective of town is to lynch mafia, then why not vote for the person whom you have most confidence in being mafia? Can I assume you would rather vote with town than vote for who you think is scum?

Deadline is kind of close, so it makes me sad to see people wasting their votes.

lolwut?

[Glass]

I am pretty sure that it is sound, if you find a problem with it please quote me and say what does not make sense to you instead of simply saying that it does not make sense.

You tried to advert Ender claiming by baiting the playerlist with a bigger wagon on a lurker, is that it?

essentially, yes.

[Glass]

Everyone who is the lone person on their wagon (Darla, Bump, dramonic, Glass) you better start either screaming bloody murder about what a great wagon that is, or find another wagon you consider tenable.

I am not a lone person on my wagon, and I disagree with a cirno lynch atm.

Glass, stop being hypocritical.

What am I being hypocritical about?

You changed your vote from me to... whoever it was, I forget, because my wagon was losing speed. So you're now voting me because the wagon I was voting for stopped.

I didn't vote fungrus because the bump wagon was losing speed, maybe you should read my posts next time.

And your second sentence makes absolutely no sense, I voted you because there was no longer a point in me voting for fungrus.

I had a town read like, Page 4. Page 4 =/= Page 13.

page 8 actually, but I am still interested in my questions, let me refresh your memory since you probably won't look back to page 13: What gave you this town read on fungrus? What changed this read to at least neutral?

Glass, I would appreciate it if you stopped tunnelling me. Every single post I make you pick out something which makes no sense which is supposedly scummy, every single post YOU make is directed at me being Mafia (practically every post). You're blatantly tunnelling me and pushing my lynch as hard as humanly possible.

I actually don't pick at every post you make...
Most of my posts are not about you...

Ok WTF. You clearly did not understand my reason for voting fungrus or you would not have said that I jumped onto it because your wagon was losing speed. But when you posted this you clearly believed this, so how does me trying to lynch you "as hard as possible" fit in with me voting fungrus?

[Glass]

and i do not see what is wrong with pushing a lynch on who you think is scummiest when the deadline is close.

[Glass]

If you are claiming doc then don't mind being lynched because we have at least 1 Mac guaranteed. Also I don't believe your doc claim because you claimed VT earlier.more to come when I'm not on phone

[Glass]

Lol Maf got corrected to mac

[Glass]

UNVOTE: mrbump

[Glass]

Okay, I am home, time to explain my seemingly random unvote.

A bit after I posted my: "i dun believe you" response I remembered some things but wanted to type it all out before MrBump got hammered. Essentially I would prefer an ender lynch and here is why.

Alright, as there's a high chance of townie's being lynched first day, i'm going to VOTE: No lynch don't want to kill a fellow townie teammate now do i?

We are all aware of this post. This is why I thought that ender was the cop, the only town motivation that I can see from ender wanting to no lynch is that he was the cop. I honestly cannot see a single reason for the doc to want to no lynch, I believe a doc would want to find someone town to protect instead of protecting randomly (if enders no lynch somehow went through)

Needless to say that I was surprised when ender claimed doc, but there is more:

Oh
My
God

Please tell me this is a joke.
I don't believe him, personally. Dat drawing out of CCs.

That is one of the many posts that MrBump made saying that ender was trying to draw out CCs. I thought that it was a strange thing for MrBump to say because there was no way to know that there was a doc to begin with, in his place I most likely would have said that there probably isn't a doc. Anyways, I believe that this is a softclaim.

Now that MrBump has claimed, we are guaranteed one maf in the next 2 lynches (if we actually get this lynch together) and I believe that MrBump is more likely the doc than ender tbh.

For future reference dont claim VT if you are doc.

VOTE: Ender

[Glass]

You honestly think Ender is capable of such a ploy? If Ender were scum I am pretty sure he would have claimed vanilla townie. The only way I can see it otherwise is if his scumbuddy told him to say that, but I don't think mafia have daytalk in this game. Basically given the rest of his play, I find it implausible that Ender could come up with a plan to draw out power roles.

I don't think that it takes a lot of brains for a mafia to say they are a role that may or may not exist in this game.

[Glass]

@cirno

Your first point is decent, but I still believe that it is a strange way to try and discredit him. Not to mention his vote on ender even after he claimed doc means that he wanted him lynched. If he was mafia and trying to look townie he would have unvoted and been like: shit

[Glass]

Well, both ender and Mrbump are L-2 and noone seems to be changing, hopefully this gets resolved when thor + lat + ender + fungrus + dram get back.

[Glass]

Dat flash wagon.

Does that mean we are in twilight?

[Glass]

Sry Ender...

I kind of have to take the blame for the ender lynch since me voting ender allowed DBE and MrBump to jump onto ender as well. I see fungrus and Cirno as just trying to actually get a lynch to happen before the deadline atm.

So yes, my suspect for the second mafia is DBE.

I honestly admit that of the two I am much more eager to lynch Enders. However my inner voice argues the WIFOM of the situation and offers the conclusion that Bump (seeming more experienced than Enders) might be making one hell of a play here and fake claiming to counter claim so that the actual doctor gets lynched....gragh.

So why did you not vote ender? Remaining indecisive I see.

I agree with Bump that an early claim of VT is smart as Doc, I have done that very thing before myself

Do you really agree with that? From what I have seen and heard it is a dumb move for a doc to claim VT in this setup, care to explain that a little further?

I love how you seem indecisive about whether to lynch bump or ender, but as soon as I vote ender you jump on with a "gut feeling", shouldnt you have some solid evidence by page 15?

Basically speaking from experience I know I was always like 3x as eager and invested in a game (esp newbie game) when I was scum.

I really don't see what point you were trying to make by saying this, at the time bump seemed more invested in the game than ender (fmpov at least).

Now let's look at korts:

Korts really did nothing except promise to post in the future, but I will grab a few of the posts I had problems with:

The Thor/Glass exchange doesn't really interest me. Nothing in there points to either of them being scum.

And he proceeds to vote thor in the same post...

People who say my case on MrBump doesn't hold any water are probably missing that my case on Bump was that he wasn't voting where it would've stimulated discussion better. Fungrus' alignment is irrelevant insofar as MrBump is concerned. If Fungrus is scum, Bump's reason to vote randomly could've been uneasiness at voting a scumpartner; if Fungrus is town, the reason could've been a lack of interest in scumhunting and thus a lack of insight into proactive voting.

A good counterargument would've been that Bump is simply inexperienced and doesn't see the difference between optimal and sub-optimal votes when regarding something else than actual scumminess. But apparently I couldn't spark even that kind of response, just general confusion. Eh.

Ok, this I am very confused about and unfortunately he isn't even here to answer my question. I really cannot tell if you are condemning MrBump or not in this area. The first paragraph is saying that your MrBump fos is significant, while the second is defeating your own argument (I don't see why you would do that, unless you were just looking for a reason to change your fos from MrBump to someone else, which korts did do in this post). Korts went on to vote thor in this post.

[Glass]

Shit shit shit shit

That was selfish of me.

I was 100% sure Ender was Mafia. I didn't believe his Doc claim for a second. He played so horrendously all game and so scummy he couldn't possibly be the Doc.
Except he kinda WAS the Doc.
I'm VT. I didn't want to die so that was all I could do to survive, as I was certain he was the Mafia. That was my only option for survival. I would draw myself out, get a Mafia in the process and probably die that night, but that was fine, taking a Maf down with me. It didn't work like that. Sorry, folks.

Also, where's Kort's replacement?

LOL, no one is going to believe that. Even if it is the truth you deserve to be lynched for doing something so horrendous.

DBE is kort's replacement, but nice attempt at trying to make it look like she isnt your partner.

[Glass]

I played horribly this game. I admit it. My play has made me want to stab my eyes out with a plate.
DBE is a she?
If I'm not Maf, though, I shouldn't be lynched. We should be lynching the Mafia, not lynching me because I made an EPIC fail.

I honestly don't care what kind of bs you are going to say, I am voting you once we get to lynching. There is no way for us to tell if it was an "EPIC fail" or you being maf, I would say there is about a 90% chance of you being mafia as opposed to fail town.

[Glass]

@MrBump

LaL = Lynch all Liars
mistake = im assuming voting ender when she had the chance to hammer you.

Lynchings are by hangings MrBump

@DBE

Trying to help by fake claiming is NEVER okay.

I agree with Bump that an early claim of VT is smart as Doc

Hmm.... contradictions....

[Glass]

Would love to hear from DBE on all of this.

[Glass]

Oh wow, did not expect this much activity by the time I woke up

guess it is kind of a moot point to respond to someone who is confirmed maf but:

Glass could have been buddying to Thor easily. Those are the only two I could possibly see as scum, but them buddying makes no sense unless Glass was hardcore bussin'.

I honestly have NO idea what you are talking about here.

About all of what? I've been voicing my opinions so far quite clearly - and if Lat wants to try and make a case on me being scum, I'm waiting to be impressed.

-points to my first post of the day-
See anything wrong with that?

but I don't know if a noob would be ballsy enough as scum to fake claim either...

So what do you think newb scum would do? Claim mafia?

[Glass]

I feel as though I've explained myself enough in answers or actions, really, and most of your questions accusations in that post were pulling at threads (imo) at best.

Only I find the response in your actions + posts to be scummy; I was wondering if I had missed something, but you are not really convincing me of your innocence here.

The more I look back, the more I think Fungrus might actually be scum and we have a Bump/Fungrus team.

Ok... Any explanations?

[Glass]

@Cirno

MrBump pushing fungrus is a total WIFOM, I would just ignore it tbh.

[Glass]

^Add complete lack of explanation for Fungrus being Bump's scumbuddy.

[Glass]

What can I say? I honestly have nothing to add, DBE fails to refute or even acknowledge my (or Lateralus's) arguments against her. She has failed to convince me that fungrus is scum, Mrbump has failed to convince me that there is another possible scumteam.

I am just waiting for DBE to come on and completely ignore our points; if that happens I have no issue lynching MrBump now because this day would not be going anywhere.

[Glass]

Everyone is ignoring your posts now because you FC'd doc to get our doc lynched. If you do somehow flip town we will look back at your points, so if you do have anything good to bring up now would be the time.

[Glass]

That was not 36 hours O_o, anyways going to read todays posts + reread cirno.

[Glass]

Glass looks like an interesting scum, attacking a stronger player (thor, in theory anyways ) head on day 1. That didn't work either so

he

flipped and became his puppet, what better place to be as scum as under the arm of a town leader, right?
I would say I'm not a big fan of

his

day 2 tunnel, but my day 2 contribution was miserable, so...

fixed, day 2 tunnel? Elaborate please.

Apparently Lateralus accusing DBE = aggressive protownie move
Glass accusing DBE = tunneling

Fungrus is town bc he got investigated.

That is a pretty dam big assumption, I agree that fungrus is town though.

I might be wrong but I am pretty sure Bump kept saying Lat was 'confirmed town' with no explanation as to why. Lat spent the majority of the day making a case from nothing against me being scumbuddies with Bump.

Come on, everything that MrBump said yesterday is full of wifom because he knew that we knew he was scum. I personally think that Lateralus's case against you had sustenance, and yet you simply ignored all his arguments. Not going to hammer just yet because I feel we should keep this day going for a bit longer in case DBE does flip town.

My strongest townread is Lateralus, then fungrus. Lateralus saying that dramonic typically busses as scum makes me less suspicious of him but people do play against their MO.

Reading from d1 I am most suspicious of Flay/Dram now for the minimal contribution, general lurking, lack of content rich posting

This is actually a decent point.

and for the general idea of noob games usually have an SE as scum.

Are you forgetting you also replaced an SE? (Korts)

[Glass]

Technically I finished the sentence.

But ok, I did not realize you were referring to that point specifically.

[Glass]

To elaborate: I thought what you thought would make you look scummy was saying the argument that there is usually an SE scum, since it is a pretty ridiculous idea.

[Glass]

DBE, are you really not going to try and defend yourself?

Hint: saying "I don't feel anything said against me is a decent argument" is not a valid defense.

[Glass]

Meh, I don't think that anything fungrus will post will change this.

end the madness.

MADNESS? THIS IS MAFIAAAAA!!!

VOTE: DarlaBlueEyes

[Glass]

-wakes up, see's that everyone is still asleep, goes back to bed-

[Glass]

Get it? Anyways, good luck town.

[Glass]

NOOOOOOOO!

Dammit I had a whole case prepared on dram and everything before i died D:

[Glass]

My investigations were Fungrus (N1) and Darla(N2).

Wow, that's surprising. I thought for sure you had investigated me n1 because of your attacks on me at the end of day1 followed by the no attacks at day 2.

[Glass]

Oh right, I had a question to thor:

And to clariy - if there is a counter doc claim, I don't want it made today.

I never understood this, why would you not want a cc to claim right away?