Newbie 1046: Game Over

[StefanB]

Hello, all yes it's my birthday, so I will post about this post, probably not so much more today.

Vote Haylen

just because nobody voted for her and I have heard she is good at staying under the radar (also voting one of the most experianced players, that's fun )

1. Well today I will not post to much and tomorrow is the party. The first week at last Monday- Tuesday I don't know how active I will be, I hope I will be active enough)
2. I hve read a lot of the wiki, theroretical I know somethings, but this is my first onlinegame.
3. Yes, more than one.
4. I know how the game works, but have only played a few games ofline, so complete newbie.

My own questions/comments:

5. Timezone: I live in GMT +1 (Europe), where do you live.
6. Okay Haylen is female (know that), our mod too. Please if you don't have that in at last your profile say it here.
7. What we have to be careful of in the rules. If we have no majority in the the deadline we will have a no lynch, something town in most cases doesn't want.
8. Okay, that's personal me. English isn't my first language, so mistakes and some interesting grammarconstructions are posible, sorry. If I am not understandeble, (should not happen often, at last not with English being the reason) I will try it again. It shouldn't be a problem, and we play mafia, so talking about something is normal.

Scummy reads at the moment not so much, but the game just started and normaly I need at last a little bit to start, also posted enough for today.

[StefanB]

Just a little question for our mod, or anything else CST is GMT +/- ?

[StefanB]

Okay quite some action:

Haylen: Why do I think you will be more difficult to catch then a newbiescum (for example)? You are IC. Experienced players are normaly better than newbies. IC are because of the double role, a bit more difficult to read. Also your favorite role is SK, you have won more than one game as it. Whitch means you can stay under the radar (if it's to much of a stretch, then sorry). All this doesn't mean you are scum, I just keep an eye on you, even if I unvote now, because somethink came up, that I think is scummy.

The Deersituation: It was a nice to get some reaction from him, but: Being the last to confirm is no way near a scumtell, (don't know where I read it in the wiki) town does it often enough. Second point Deer is a replacement, he confirmed less than 24 hours after GLaDOS told us that he would replace. Just get your facts right.

Ghostlin: Causual Inception? Better to post a bit more than to be cryptic. What really bugs me is the Haylen's job think. It isn't only the job of the IC to scumhunt and 4 eyes see more than 2. So that was in my opinion just a way to say shut up, which is very scummy. I also don't like his we should keep informations to ourself. If someone atacks someone with thinks that are just plain wrong and it goes to long, as town you should stopp it, before it hurts town to much.

Vote Ghostlin

[StefanB]

And here is the link to the wikipage. Writer is a certain Mastin. http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... sane_Tells

[StefanB]

First to get the more unimportant parts of the posting out of the way

Ghostlin wrote

So, let me ask you this: why make a dead point to defend another player on something that no one necessarly believes? Why would you be concerned whether or not Deer could defend himself against that?

Also, how would you know exactly when Deer confirmed? The only one who would know this would be GLaDoS, who would of picked up our PMs.

I don't know when Deer confirmed, I only know that it took him less then 24 hours because there are less than 24 hours between GLaDOS replacement post and the conforment post. So logic.

Perhaps I should have let this rest, but I saw it yesterday and though first lets see how Deer reacts, than post it. May also be a bad case of trying to brag. But it's a dead topic for me also, so you really want to discuss that point further?

Ghostlin again:

Bussing is a concern any time someone reasks a question someone else asks. Reasking a question could close a line of inquiry for that player to continue to persue to form a possible later case: I slightly misposted there. It's not much that the onus is on Haylen to continue to post, it's just that it's much more effective if someone goes: "Hey, you didn't answer my question. Why?" rather than if another player goes: "You didn't answer Player X's question. Why?" The first adds pressure in ignoring that player. The second could possibly be considered the start of sheeping or bussing.

Okay the point was in your answer to Deer, but it shows my problem that if have with your logic better than anything that you wrote that was directed by me. Okay it was Haylens question, but come on. Just a few points. He could be interesting in the answer also. Haylen is not very active in weekends, so we will have to wait for an answer. Sheeping is a very strong term for what happened. Start of bussing I can say much about. Just that is is very strange.

In the whole thing I don't care that is about Deer. For me it's more about logic and that what you wants hurts town imho. Waiting for Hayley 2 days (worst case) is not a good option. Also I belive more activity = good.

[StefanB]

Oh yes forgot the Haylinsituation. If we get in lylo than more than half the townies have died. We are seven, 3 would be alive in the first situation, 2 in the second lylo variant. So given the players all theoretical information now doesn't hurt. So it's in a sense just stating the obvios and always plan for the worst case senario.
The wording was strange right, Ghostlin. We shouldn't asume anyone to be mafia, just he or she is still alive, also right.

[StefanB]

Okay first Ghostlin:

Sorry for the confusing part. I wanted to say that I was bragging. (what was wrong)
Independent thinking is very important, you are right in this point. I just thought that you overeacted quite a bit and use this thinks a bit to fast. That can be as much bad for the town, as what you try to prevent. The moment that means that my vote will stay there a little bit longer.
I'm thinking about something else at the moment. What if someone makes a very good case against someone else, where he list a lot of points. You agree that this person is scummy but can't think of anythink that is new. I try to make my own arguments but they are nothing new. Okay to vote for you and what would you do in this case?
The answering questions or atacks for other people. Yes thats very bad. I make exception on a few points.
1. Very bad attack, thats so unlogical or wrong, that it hurts. In that case I have no problem with it.
2. A undercase: The person who made the atack is scummy because of the attack.
3. A bad case of missing vital information from the game.
4. Trying to break Tunnelvision.
5. You are thinking that town is very near on lynching a townie.

So the post of WIR: Please don't do that again, WIR. What I think about this. It was not a difficult question, so AwesomePoe shouldn't have that much problem in answering it. If WIR thinks he will have problems with it and answered it because of this reason, than that game will become interesting. Presure on AwesomePoe could lead interesting results. So for once I'm not going against WIR for that, if he answeres questions for Poe again, whitout having a good reason than it will not go so strong.

And by the way your bussing is just a distancing.

So that was me take about Gostlin the rest in another post.

[StefanB]

Okay slight correction:

whitout having a good reason than it will not go so strong

should have mean: I will pressure stronger.

Okay another correction: I didn't want to say that AP was sure scum or something yust that if Ghostlin means it he should pressure him.

AwesomePoe: I like it that you are more active stay that way.

Nikitakit: Be active. I know that it is very difficult to get reads on people, be patient we are just on page 3. The only think that you should be sure of know is that if one of us is scum, he didn't take the lurker rute.

Lets get to the lurkers: chkflip and hurristat haven't posted once. Hello guys!!!!!!!!!

And to get back to Ghostlin (sorry must get my thoughts in more order): You are not voting, why?

WIR (just the new points) just in the first point, get the he/she think in order, you are not making friends with that. Also post more.

Mod Edit: Quote tag fixed.

[StefanB]

Ghostlin: I wasn't making a case against WIR because of the genderthink. (Since I was the only onee who did say something about it, if you don't count Haylen's RVSV) I just asked him to look at it, since it was strange.
Okay my last post was trying to try the nice angle to get people to talk.
On the other hand me voting you makes no sense at the moment, so

Unvote

This has nothing to do with the FOS (I think that is a weaker weapon than a vote)
I hope that people get more active.

[StefanB]

AP: (I hope thats okay): Well Ghostlin and I had our diferences, where I thought that somethink he said could be hurtful to town. About this discusion ask anyone not involved to get a more objective answer. Leaving this aside, I don't think Ghostlin was hurtful for town, it seems that he is trying to help the town overal, but it is to early to say if he is helpful or not. (Page 3!)
On the other points: Never say that Scum would never do anythink, they could do exact this to get Towniepoints.

Welcome Chkflip (I know I will write this name wrong some posts) Have fun, will be interesting to hear from you)

Haylen: I look forward to your reactions, when you read all. Interesting question if all this makes now more sense than at 1:40 AM. Sorry for giving away that thing with Deer. Sorry you were away for 2 Days and I didn't know that someone else was on that point.

[StefanB]

Just to ad somethink that we should take into accont. A lot of people are very quite, to quite to read them. Most people should post more. As alternative to lynch WIR I would sugest to lynch one of the worst lurkers, the problem is who? Lurking through game is a strategie of mafia, but to much townies are using it at the moment too. Form opinions, ask questions do somethink!
Lurkers at the Moment: Chkflip, huristat (the only one I won't lynch, because the problems should be over soon), nikitakit (still waiting on your 3rd post)
Hell: Deer and WIR could be called semilurkers at the moment and I really wait for Haylen to post. (If you subtract the IC posts there isn't that much Haylenplayerpostings) The last one may be me being impatient, she has better reason than some others, but it's frustrating.

Important: IF the DISCUSION between Ghostlin and me is the problem, just ignore it. It isn't at the front at the moment, just start to play.

[StefanB]

Okay like always first the easy points:

Nikitakit: I don't mean you should ignore Ghostlin or me, that would be strange. Beeing ignored isn't somethink you want. Ghostlin and I had a discusion a while back that was heated and it may be complicated. I just said, that if that discusion is the reason you can go in the game, you should ignore that specific discusion.
At the moment I am not voting anyone right, my suspicion at the moment is build on lurkers, because it's easy to hide amoung them and they are far more difficult to read than active players.

Okay fur the lurkers I mentioned in my last post:

I won't vote WIR since he is at L-2.
Deer ist semiactive and I don't get a bad vibe from him at the moment. But he is brief I would love to hear more from him.
Chkflip has started to play the game.
Huristat has arrived. Will give him some time.
Nikitakit Hm, he tryed, year I liked his second post, but he is posting very little. Would vote him or Candidate b.
Haylen: Yes she was usful in getting us out of RVS, but then weekend VL, than posting at 1:40. She was away since the end of RVS, and the more she is away, the more I want to vote for her. My second candidate. I am afraid that even if she got us out of RVS, that she is Candidat b.

So who will I vote at the moment: WIR, Deer, Chkflip not. Huristat is now in the game and has some time.
So it comes down to the question what I found more suspicios, posting little from the beginning or vanishing after the RVS. VOTE: Haylen I'm also frustrated because I think as one of the most experienced players she could help a lot if she was more active.

[StefanB]

First somethink I forgot. Thanks to the mod for repairing my quote.

Ghostlin: First thanks for the decent post. And my point of the discusion was really if it's the reason you can't get in the game, ignore it now. Very good post of Ghostlin by the way. (Okay I may think that because I Don't disagree with anythink in this)
About the stupid think: I do also think that insulting people should be the last think you do. Of course I don't think that we have someone who could be caled VI in this game.

Sorry tyred, I will comment on Haylens post tomorrow.

[StefanB]

First to all, Haylens post made me realise a fact. I know I can be hard to read because English is my second language and I can be confusing as hell. If thats a problem thats to big, please tell me and I will ask for a replacement. I don't want to ruine the game to everyone.

Haylen:
Haylen wrote:

Sorry, I was in hospital yesterday and didn't realise I'd be in there for as long as I was. My apologies. As a warning, I have another appointment on the 31st Jan.

I feel like a jerk for pressing you then and I promise to try to be polite in the posting.

What Haylen proved is (besides that I am confusing as hell) is to thinks: First context is king (so I'm not that big fan of reading the tread only in iso) and If you quote from somewhere a while back, you should say from where you quote. Her quote from me is from post 42. I think this is important exspecially later, when no one (the players name I use now is an example, not really randomed pick) will search all of z.B. Ghostlins post to find one sentence of him. So now I will chance the quote to show what I really meaned:

I also don't like his

:

We should keep informations to ourself.

To everyone that was the start of my discusion with Ghostlin about his

when it's really Haylen's job to press for an answer

post. From the context that should be clear that keeping informations for myself was not what I was arguing for. So Haylen so I can't answer this question practically only theoretically: You can keep Informations for yourself that are privat and have nothing to do with the game and you should keep informations for yourself that help Mafia more than town (Powerroles for example)

Mastin's Insane Tells: Number one has no conection to this game, right? In 43 there is no mentioning why it's important, but I talked about this page in 42 and thought providing a link would be a good idea.

My sixt iso post you mean post number 5 iso right (would be post 47 in the game)?

Focus on people who are not posting. Yeah that's right in the moment I started it, you could argue that about half of the town were not active. To get them more in the spotlight, I focused on them. Since them we have seen some more activity. I just stayed on my course because I thought it could help town. I know the difference between active lurkers and normal lurkers, see both as antitown (the act of lurking, don't mean that a lurker has to be scum) and don't see a reason to tread them different at the moment. The reason why I would really like to keep for myself (if it's not obvious)

So I should have let the last sentence out, interesting that you are concernt by it, because my reason for wishing I didn't wrote that was that it makes the vote weaker.

One think I should say to all of you is patience isn't a great virtue for me, exspecially not this week (the last has nothing to do with mafia).
I leave the vote now where it is, that posting just hit the wrong nerves.

[StefanB]

To make it eaven more clear (Yeah it didn't get really clear in the last post): I called out Ghostlin because I wanted more infos for the town in the open. (That Ghostlin is the most active player makes that really funny in the retroprospekt)

[StefanB]

Haylen again: This time not about me.

You wrote that you have curently a neutral read on WIR. So why are you still voting him and what do think about the wagon on him. You are the only one on this who voted fur him in RVS and gave no serios reason. He was on L-1 for a short time, so I think its relevant.

Deer: I aggree that nikitakit is a good vote. Fun fact aboot hurristat, his first post was 2 days ago.

Hurristat: Please get an avatar. Can you give us some thoughts about the game? Can we exspect you to be more active in the future?

[StefanB]

Okay first

unvote

, since that vote had really the main reason to get a reaction of Haylen and that worked or I was just lucky.

VOTE: Nikitakit

Even that I am trying to ask him a few questions:

1. What informations do you need from me? Okay I slightly excagerated on the lurkerpoints but it was clear that that were the once I was most sunspices of. The ignoring think should be clear now

2. The only reads you have are the AP is town and WIR is scummy because he is voting Deer with strage reason. Anythink else?

Other people:

AP: You mentioned Ghostlins Vote for WIR do you think that was suspicous? Who do you suspect beside WIR? Any reaction on the vote of Chkflip?

WIR: I want one. Joking aside, I have nothing against random thoughts, but why did you think that Deer was so scummy, even if it is over that one is wired.

[StefanB]

Some facts I think are interesting:

Hurristat: First game.
Nikitakit: Second, wasn't very active in the other game, but got more active later. A fun fact the mod was Haylen! (Doesn't mean anythink a mod remembers players probably less than other players, I just thought it was interesting.)

[StefanB]

First Nikitakit: At the moment I don't have a policy. First game and all.
Whom I will lynch: There are more factors that play a role: How scummy do I think are the active players? Alternative is a lurker. And of course it playes a role, who I can lynch, alone all policy is only theory. At the end it's a team afford.

Second Hurristat: Okay, thats a good catchup post. Personaly I would rather have a wallpost than the spoilerpost, but thats just me.
The casual inception comment had nothing to do with me voting Ghostlin, also that brevery think had nothing to do with it. I voted him because of the "Haylen's job" comment. In this case I thought a vote would be stronger than just questining.
If it helps you AP is male. Normaly under the Avatar second line stands in most cases male or female. If you search for a certain person you can iso them. Read how on Page 1 Posting 10 (its just at the begining of Haylens post.
Just to make it easier: Haylen and our mod GLaDOS are female, everyone else is male.

[StefanB]

Mod:

Can I ask for a votecount please?
The reason is Awesome Poe. (Good catch, Ghostlin)

Now a post from AP his last on Ghostlin:

I saw him take his vote off of WIR and I read him scummy. Rereading, it’s much less scummy and a lot more town.

Ghostlin asked what was scummy about unvoting. What he didn't mention was that he unvoted WIR because he put him on L-1 by acident. (and gave probibly all players a shock by doing this)

So unvoting of L-1 to not quickhammer on day 1 is somethink you considered scummy? And when he thought that Ghostlin was scummy he posted that (was his second to last post)

I understand unvoting the quick lynch because a quick lynch doesn't yield much info for day two.

So I read you right, you understand what Ghostlin was doing and think its scummy at the same time?
I think I would put AP on L-2, but I'm not sure so just

Unvote

FOS Poe

[StefanB]

Thanks GLaDOS

VOTE: Poe

[StefanB]

The stresic week is over (not talking about the game)

Nikitakit: I don't tell people that the have to ignore the discusion of Ghostlin and me. I tell them that (or try to do anyway), it's in my opinion not the most important think in the game and if it's to confusing or complicated and stops you to get in the game, concentrate on other thinks. (I hope that's clear enough.
I went after lurkers, because I thought
1) now we still have time.
2) I was shocked there were so few people posting.
3) More activity is somethink that makes people more redable.
4) Nobody else was posting about lurkers at last when I started it.

Also a thanks beeing compared to an IC is a complement, I try to play the game intellegent, but this is my first forumgame. (Even if he though it's a scummy IC, that not complement)

[StefanB]

Wrong hurristat! German.
But this has nothing to do with the game, all roles were given randomly.

[StefanB]

Hello WIR, you wanted to post what you think of Ghostlin, Deer and me. Found nothing good or did you just forget it?

[StefanB]

Poe: Okay about your suspicion on Ghostlin: Now the make some sense. I am not the only one who can be confusing. I'm not sure if I believe it, but that case makes sense.
If you think that hurristats post was weak why don't you attack it more concret? I you don't understand it, ask questions. You are the first one to answere the attacks on you, even if they are a so bad, that you think they are very bad. You remember the situation with WIR you answered whit being potty trained? We have a similar situation here.
The question of Deer I don't think is strange, we had some very similar situations in the game bevor, why do you find it only strange, when you are at the reciving end?

[StefanB]

First of Haylen sleeping is more important than answering this post fast.

I'm a little bit confused why Haylen post this now, I'm not in that much danger to be lynched. So even if the point don't try to lynch your strongest towntell is a good advice (for town it would be in most cases, going against playing to win), the timing is confusing.
WIR: Of course you can try to lynch me, if 5 players vote me, I will be lynched. Haylen has no way to stop that. She is just a normal player. The question is more if you agree with her (in the case that you see me as town), why would you?
More and more I'm looking at scum-WIR.

Vote: WIR

I also have a townread (it's not Haylen), and I don't not want this person to be lynched today. I would say who this is because I'm not sure if that info helps town more than scum.
People who try to lead town are not necesarry scum. They are just very confident. Just look at a few games you will probably find a lot of games where a townplayer was leading town. I have problems with blind following them, because you should allways think for yourself. The question is always if the advice is a good one. Haylen is as IC someone who makes sense that she will try to lead the town:
a) she is more experianced, than most other people in the game. (If not all, SCs can be experienced, too)
b) she is a teacher here, thats in my experiance a small step to trying to lead.
Of course the first think in chosing a person to lynch is the question if you think he or she is scummy. (Even in deadline thats better but there a lynch is better than a no lynch)

[StefanB]

First of I don't know if I can post tomorrow and on wednesday. Just to sure, consider me to be v/la on this days.

Then I not giving just my townread, I will give you a list of all players in order from town to scummy as hell.

First town:

Ghostlin

: While I will not go as far as Haylen, I see him as the most town.

Probably town:

Deer

: Even if his postingstyle makes him difficult to read he is playing a solid game. Looks very protown.

At the moment I see them as town, but that could chance from strongest to weakest:

So I have a little problem. To players are for me at nearly the same level. I will use the old saying ladys first:

Haylen

: Looks helpful to town (not counting the ICWork that we don't have to discuss), helped us quite a lot, just for me not so easy to read, makes some post, that I just ask myself why, but who ever said women were easy to understand. My gut is warning me against her, but she hasn't down anything antitown.

Chkflip

: Seems to have some bad luck at the moment, so he can't be very active (That seems to be a side wide problem), so he is not that easy to read. Has made some good points in his post, so like Haylen he seems more protown.

Hurristat

: Isn't that much active. But what I like is that he seems to be trying. Can easyly move up or down.

Scummy:

Nikitakit

: I considere him being an active lurker. He is sometimes a little better than other times, but I don't think his postings are very strong.

Poe

: Sometimes there, sometimes not. Hasn't done much that game than tunelling on WIR. (Who is scummy as it's get, I give him that) and he hasn't really build a second case. His try on Ghostlin was so bad, that it made him imho worse. If he is town, he should try harder.

WIR

: Okay where to start. Has played a very bad game, his last 2 posts were extremly bad. Would need somethink big to make me not like that vote. Two thinks that I ask myself: If WIR is scum, who could be his partner? Is this perhabs a to obvious target?

So my list town-scum:

1. Ghostlin
2. Deer
3. Haylen
Chkflip
5. Huristat
6. Nikitakit
7. Poe
8. WIR

[StefanB]

Have a little time.
Okay with a WIR lynch after claim and defence (which I hope he does)
What should also happen: Anyone who has some points, should make them. We should olso what until tuesday to give Ckhflip a chance to respond, perhaps our more experienced players have some argument we should hear first.
Deer: If you think that we should lynch Nikitakit over WIR make your case.

[StefanB]

AwesomePoe: I think your case is not build solomly on your reaction on WIR, it's more that you didn't do much about most of the other players. There are 8 people you don't know much about this game. As town you would try to make sense of as much of them, as you could. You don't do much beside the attack on WIR. If we lynch him, what would you do then? Yes WIRISO 9 is definitive the start of the WIRcase. For me the worst were WIRs last 2 posts.

Haylen: I hope you get well soon. Her read on Deer and Nikitakits reads are thinks that I would like to definitly wait for.

Hurristat: Were do you come from Mafia, do you mean RL, or Forrummafia? If the second, where did you play?

[StefanB]

First of all: I don't feel that bad about the WIR lynch, his play was horrible.
I repeat and rewrite my question on Poe:
AwesomePoe: I think your case is not build solomly on your reaction on WIR, it's more that you didn't do much about most of the other players. There are 8 people you don't know much about this game. As town you would try to make sense of as much of them, as you could. You didn't do much beside the attack on WIR on day 1. What can we exspect from you now?

Haylen: Did you realise that your vote for WIR was the L-1? If you did, why did you do this at the time? You FOSed Nikitakit, any other strong suspects at the moment?

Deer: Care to explain your personal Nikitakit case more?

Nikitakit: What Suspects have you got now?

Not voting at the moment, just cleare my thoughts.

At the moment:

Vote: Poe

[StefanB]

Okay just to make the last line and second to last line clear. I did thinking about not voting and than dicided to do it, but forget to delete the second line.
Haylen: For this game I think that you don't need your new icon, I think WIR was in the game who had that problem.
I didn't think anyone exspected WIR to selfhammer, must controlle anger.

[StefanB]

AwesomePoe wrote:

SB has been putting his vote on 5 people on the first day. I can understand voting for lurker to get them active. But at this point a vote from SB is like an appendix. You don’t know what’s for but you got one. In fact the only people he didn’t vote were hurri and cflip. hurri wasn’t active during the first part of the day but SB didn’t notice or didn’t grace him with a vote. SB looks scummy because she had a voting lurkers policy she didn’t extend to hurri.

Okay Poe just to get out a few thinks that are wrong of the whole think. Yes I voted a lot on day 1, you think there can't be reasons for trying to be a little bit more carefree on day 1? Also they point about an appendix is simple not right, a always gave reasons for my votes, just read my posts. I didn't notice Hurri being not active? Well read me in ISO. I mentioned Hurri twice before his first post, so didn't notice is not right? Why didn't I vote for people who haven't started the game? Ever heared of replacement? When people don't play, they are after a while replaced by the mod. I would call a vote here pretty useless. You forgot someone I didn't vote on, Deer, have yet to vote him. Please I'm male, so don't call me she.
Why didn't I use that lurker policy on Hurri? First Vote useless, than Hurri became more and more active. I didn't think that I had to do somethink to press for more activity.
Also one other think that is wrong: I didn't only vote for people who had only votes on them. Haylen hadn't any votes on her, both times I voted her. On Nikitakit, I called him my second suspect before Deer voted him, so year I didn't let that stop me.

Fun fact, you were on the whole day part of waggons, never had the first vote on someone scummy? Did the fact that WIR already was voted stop you? Should it have? So doublestandard?

[StefanB]

As afterthought: Chkflip active? He has 1 post more than nikitakit. I know that are sidewhide proplems, but to call him active makes me interested in your definition of active.

[StefanB]

Awesome Poe wrote:

@SB: Your vote pattern is unstable because it varies alot throughout the day. It matters not what reasons you have. This was an analysis of voting patterns which are objective. Your vote has been devalued by flip flopping on many people.

Me being on one wagon day one has nothing to do with you being on 5. Actually I was on my own on WIR p99 to p114. This all seems like a nasty defense on something you can’t change and shows something you don’t want other people to see.

Sometimes I have the feeling that you don't read my post completly or I am to complicated again. (that was perhaps a little to nasty)
What I have got to critice in your post. I didn't have objections to you calling my an unstable votter I had problems with:

But at this point a vote from SB is like an appendix. You don’t know what’s for but you got one.

The last sentence is simple untrue.
My vote having no value is somethink that other players have to dicied for themselfs, of course you could say that, you are the one I'm voting at the moment.
Nasty defence: I think I have been aggresive that game, but rearly nasty, what was so bad about my defence (not counting that I attacked you.
Somethink I can't change and don't want other people to see: Yes I can't chance the fact that I was eager to vote on the 1. day. I had my reasons for it. I think everone in this game knows the first think, just reading the game proves that.
What you completly missed is the fact that I didn't attack the vottingpattern I only attacked your analysis of that vottingpattern, hell I didn't even attack anythink on it, that was wrong, there are some very interestink gems found on it.

Another think:

Me being on one wagon day one has nothing to do with you being on 5.

Well, I we talk about joining waggons that have already one vote on it and take day 2 in account it gets:

Me being on

3 wagons the whole game

has nothing to do with you being on

4 wagons and not bandwagons

relevant.

[StefanB]

Ghostlin: (re Chkflip) The players got a PM that day 2 started, I don't think a prod will be more helpful than that.

[StefanB]

I should perhaps just shut up, but thats not my strongest side.
But let's review my votes und reaction of the people:
Vote 1: Haylen (RVS) not much reaction but votings at the beginning are just there to get the game started.
Vote 2: Ghostlin(reason: It's Haylens job), Reaction: A long discusion, convinced me in the end that Ghostlins argument was not one I believe in but he isn't scum.
Vote 3: Haylen: (Reason me not being good at waiting, wanting a reaction from her) Reaction: I got one. Perhaps my weakest vote/worst yesterday
Vote 4: Nikitakit: (I said before that I will go after lurkers, if there is nothing scummy from active players, worst Lurker) Reaction: I got one from him
Vote 5:AwesomePoe (The whole Ghostlins unvote line was strange/scummy) Reaction: You tryied to answere it and then didn't post anythink for the rest of the day.
Vote 6: WIR (WIR Post 13 und 14 was enough to make me vote him) Reaction: Okay here you are right, perhabs I have already lost the power of vote und voice

To get to the other points: I don't want any attention to my votes? I never did say that. In fact if I that would be true than I would have answered that. If I would be afraid of attention I wouldn't play the game differently.

You see me hammering pretty easy? I have never voted someone on more than L-2 in the whole game, the only time I was unsure how many votes someone had, I asked the mod for a votecount.

The last point was not me trying to confuse people. It is the point that you are one bandwaggon away from me, fun fact by your own definition you are one vote away from being unstable today.

Okay I give you that I was using my votes to get reaction (=better reads) from people. Which little imformation votehopping isn't somethink I think that is to terrible.

[StefanB]

Okay Ghostlin wrote:

My only complaint about Stefan is he's ratcheted it back from Day 2 to Day 1 when we need people to make cases and hit folks hard.

Sorry I'm not quite sure what you mean whit this, can you explain it?

[StefanB]

Just a few thinks before loging out, that have nothink to do with AP:

Haylen: Okay so did you really think WIR was the most suspicios or not? Thats not clear from your post.
Who do you think is most suspicios besides Nikitakit?

Deer: A very deerlike answere. Since you were one of the few people not okay with a WIR lynch, did you see somethink that we did miss?

[StefanB]

Sorry AwesomePoe I tryed to let you talk and make your own grave, but enough is enough:

AwesomePoe wrote:

See how StepahB quickly read out his reasons? But this only came from repeated prodding. His voting pattern doesn't look very good, but his reasons look much better.

Nice StefanB: Hallo my name is Stefan, we are playing a game of Mafia together. Thats a game of reading and analysing what other people do. Any new information one this for you?

Not so nice: Very happy where my vote is. Sorry AwesomePoe that above is so very wrong that it hurts. You never proded me about my reason. You never cared for them. (if I follow your posts) They were unimportant for you, because I unvoted and voted so often.
I had to read out my reasons? Well that wasn't so important to me to read them out, because I gave them when I voted. So giving information that I think every player already has with no one asks for, yepp that will take some time, normaly I repeat it only to prove a point.

Reading at Poe complete: Doesn't seem to understand whats going on in this game, some times I think he has just skimmed it. Doesn't really care to scumhunt, didn't care for readings about most of the players on day 1. Your whole playstile screams scum. You are scum.

[StefanB]

Ghostlin: I'm not a big fan of quicklynches, even if AwesomePoe is a good target, if there is one.
I am not so aggresive because I was at the first time of the game, more in the defence and I let my antagonist in the discusion build his own case. I did that because it seemed for me that Poe was going to do that even I only made little pushes and defened myself. But even that was "nasty". Look were my vote is at the moment.
Beeing a dick, sorry I hope I wasn't that to anyone on day 1. Yust no!
Everythink is do to circumstances, the only ones I will not go after at the moment are nikitakit or Chkflip, because they are not here. If the responed to the prod, I will ask them some questions. Haylen and Deer I am waiting on posts yes. (both have a good trackracord of answering questions in this game) For obvious reasons I'm at the moment a little preocupied with AwesomePoe at the moment. Thats not to unnormal for me if you read my game yesterday.

[StefanB]

Okay, I'm trying to make the argument between myself and AwesomePoe (and may use points from other players) (only main argument) more clear:
For that I use abbritions.
A means: StefanB votes a lot on day 1.
B means: That's scummy.
C means: I have made my vote count less through my actions day one.
D means: I have reasons for my vote.
F: Is my fealing that AP knows not what happens in the game.
G: The point about me being likly to hammer.
H is the question: Is AP scum?

Beginn of the day: I vote AP.
AP post 1: Stats a and B and denies D. (only hints at c)
SB Post 1: Admites A, but denies B and points out D whitch should be knowledge awaible to all players.
AP Post 2: Stats that D is unimportant, staats C. Does rewoke a, but makes no comment on B.
SB Post 2: Ask if C is only because I'm voting for AP in the moment. Does once again admite A.
AP Post 3: Brings the point G. Brings again out A and means that I try to erease a.
Ghostlin 1: Points out that D is public knowledge.
SB Post 3: Restead D to point out that there is no evidence for c. I denie that I try to erease a. points out counterevidence to g.
AP Post 4: He points out that he tryed to prodd me to give d. He treats d like new information.
SB Post 4: Denies that AP Post 4 is what happens and that thats a lye. Again has a feeling of F. Answers H with yes.

That's what happened. Make your own opinion about it.

Hurristat: The feeling that on of us is scum, is somethink that I think is right. Hint: It's not me. Look at who started it. (I would not call my vote the start), who is making more sense, see what you can make of it.
The timing of your posting is somethink that I don't like. It was after I did start to really attack AP, (Hey I waited 3 posts whit it) why now and not earlier, when it wasn't as evident, that that was going to become less good for AP? I had you slighly Protown on day 1, Day 2 doesn't look good.

[StefanB]

Okay Hurristat: You are right, being sure is a good think before you think someone is scum.
But please look at the argument, look what realy happened and think about it okay?

Poe: Can you stop saying that reason for what people say don't matter? That's just wrong on so many levels and it get's on my nerves.
You are not responding to your case, interesting.

Deer: Being independent is cool, but you are one of the most experienced players. Can you at last sometimes post what you think about certain situations.

Nikitakit: If you are to bussy you should replace. The question if you must, is one for Ghostlin. If really good luck to you, more luck on the future, have fun in further games.

Haylen: If your time and your health alows it, can you please look at AwesomePoe vs me some more and think about it. Thanks.

This goes to everone, I really believed in caught scum, but invite you all to look for any posibilty that AP can still be town, I don't see it (Even when we don't combine it with day 1.

[StefanB]

Edit by post: The Gs substitute Ghostlin in my last post with GLaDOS. Arrgh!

[StefanB]

AP: Chkflip has allready been proded see post 183

Ghostlin: I second that Hurri says who is on his scumlist, I think I know but would here it, nevertheless.
I would ask that all: Who do you think is the scummiest player at the moment if you are not voting?

[StefanB]

hear of course stop posting for today,

[StefanB]

Hurristat wrote:

I did and came to the same conclusion as before: maybe AP is mafia and is trying to make you overreact (which he managed) and end up on a lot of people's scumlists, or maybe he's town and strongly believes you're mafia, and is trying to get you to overreact in order to get you lynched.

That's making everythink to easy.

First: Overreacting is not a scumtell, so if I overeacted is not quite a question. Btw: My overeaction is pretty mild if compored to a lot of other people on the board. I will try to make the case very clear in the next post and ask Poe to do the same in his next post.

Second: Even if I overreacted, I will say that my arguments make more sense than most of the thinks Poe wrote, exspecially if you compare the last two posts with his last on the subject of me.

Not suprised by your top 3 scumsuspects, I kind of suspected them, didn't know the order through.

Why exactly did I move from second most town in your opinion to 3rd most scummy, because I started to attack Poe after he used bad argument after bad argument? If not, than why?

[StefanB]

The case against AwesomePoe:

Day 1: 1.Aktive lurker
2. Tunneling on WIR, not trying to do much about the other players.

Day 2:
1. Starting a list, which maine point was to make himself look better, and trowing dirt on certain players (from the points after it, I would say beside me, Haylen who he goes against at the moment and Deer) who looked for most players protown on day 1 (I give you that is one of the weaker points against him.

2.Ignores reason for what happened sticks only to his interpretation of facts, doesn't even admites that certain facts are commen knowledge.

3. I just can't see what was so nasty about 172.

4. Makes reason seem unimportant.

5. Tryes to make my vote (which is currently on him) seem not worth much/ at last less than any other vote.

6. The hammering comment, yust to trow dirt around, has nothink to do with the rest and he hasn't anythink that makes it even likly in the whole game.

7. Calls me on trying to erease thinks that are imposible to erease and should be know by all.

8. He is lying in 187, that's not what happened in the discusion.

9. Taking a point from Ghostlin: If he believes me to be mafia, why isn't he voting for me? All this attacks and no vote? How does that fits together with me being so scummy?

Thats the AwesomePoe case. Anyone has any argument against it?

[StefanB]

Hallo Zachrules, hello Nocmen.
Welcome to our little town.

[StefanB]

Deer wrote:

Hey Stefan, hurristat's scum. You should probably vote him. That's what I think.

While Hurristat is not looking very townie right now, voting Awesome Poe is definitly right.

Hurristat: AAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH (I fell better):

Hurristat wrote:

This list seems more OMGUS than anything, and it sounds like many of these were created with the intention to incriminate AP while lifting all the blame off of you.

OMGUS is voting on someone whitout any other reason than that he is voting for you. Even if AwesomePoe would be voting for me, OMGOS is not what is happening here. Attacking someone for a bad case is completly okay, even if the bad case is on you. (It is also not scummy to attack the person who attacks you, if you have good reasons.
Second tell me what did I create. I interpreted APs Posting, I didn't create anything.

Other point there are no absulutes in mafia: But there is reason, logic and motives and reactions of other people. You should try to make sens of the game and its players. We will get no absoluties.

[StefanB]

Just have to say that AwesomePoes last post was really good and made some interesting points. The fact that Hurristat is not even thinking about town vs town is strange. I don't that anymore because I think that Poes post screamed scum, but if he can't deciede what is going on, that should be on his mind at last as possibility.
Of course the point were I disagre is frustration. I don't vote for AP because of frustration, I have my reasons.
What we should wait for is the 2 new players. Potential new inside and 2 people more to read, good.

[StefanB]

Zachrulez: There are 2 people who are main suspects at the moment, but I'm affraid you have to read the tread to know more.
Nocmen: I somethink is to confusing just ask. (And I know why I wrote that, there is a big chance of somethink confusing in my posts)

[StefanB]

Hurristat: Hm, winning an argument, yes I do like to do that. But thats not the point. Winning the argument would be that his arguments were not very good. Okay does the point that he was my biggest scumread before play a role probably.
Okay tell me witch points of me are forced? If anyone has somethink that shows me I made a mistake in that case speak. I'm convinced that AP is scum, if there is somethink on the proof that doesn't match, tell me before a mistake is make. I am pressing you at the moment because you are the only one who said, there is somethink wrong with it, but are not commiting like hell. Second reason is that you make my head hurt:
Confused (and confusing) Newbie, who is insecure but town or not. You make me flipflop in my head.

[StefanB]

Nocmen: WIR was lynched, so don't exspect answeres from him.
More comments when you have read more.

[StefanB]

So will answer some of Nocmen points:

Nocmen wrote:

43: I find this trigger happy as well, StefanB's vote on Ghost.

Well I voted him because I thought he was making an argument that I thought was hurting the discusion. Since discusion is what town needs, I made the vote.

57: Stefan, why are you wanting ghost to vote? It's still qite early I wouldnt really push anyone to voting at this point.

Well I wanted to know where he stand. I found it a little bit odd, that he didn't vote, but I just asked. To call it pressure is a little bit strong.

80: Chk, how is it bad if Ghost posts a lot? I'd prefer more posts than little posts from everyone.

Since Chk is no longer around, and Zach can't answere that one, I will try to. In my opinion that was just a joke, Chkflip saw Ghostlin as very townie for posting a lot (If you go by the post).

83: Stefan, your reason for voting Haylen is inactivity at this point, correct? Why her instead of others who were inactive at that point?

Now for my vote that I'm with last happy in the game. I voted Haylen for a couble of reasons over the other because my main choices where Nikitakit and Haylen at the point. (Hurristat had just arrived and I think he should have a little time to read the game, so I wanted to wait a little bit and see what he did) I voted Haylen because I didn't like the timming of her disappering (just after RVS was over) and Post 65 was promising somethink that she didn't delivere. (Sorry the 1:40 post was awful fluff) I didn't know that she was ill. My second reason was that I exspected Haylen to react and get more infomations from her that way. I don't think voting Nikitakit would help that much.

136: Stefan, I'm not fully agreeing with you that Ghost is one of the most town at this point. What do you think about his posts 68 and 86 to be particular, two of the posts that make me think of him as slightly scummy?

I have that feeling from his general gameplay, will look at the post but Ghostlin should answeres this himself before, I comment.

With hurristat's return, I have a question for everyone : Why was nik's lurking scummier than hurristat's, who in his player analysis, tunneled a lot on AP?

Well just subjective Hurristat came out as a little more trying than Nikitakit. Nikitakit was an active lurker that was very confused and the fact that hasn't placed a vote and was very noncommited. I think he was lurking worse than hurristat, who was away until post 71. That was my reason on day 1. I should point out, that Hurristat was just a little bit higher on my playerlist than Nikitakit.
That was all before day 2. Since than Nikitakit has replaced because he has to little time for the game and we have hurristats day 2 play...

Zach points out something interesting, with all of the votes for nik/hurristat, why were there more votes towards WIR and AP?

Because at the end I found WIR and AP scummier than the lurkers. (That's the reason for my votes in the end)

Nocmen thanks for the bigpost. Hope thats enough for the moment as answer.

[StefanB]

I will not defend Ghostlins posts, thats his job but sorry don't think that 68 and 86 are very scummy.
I don't get 86 as training post for a scumbuddy in particalur.

[StefanB]

AwesomePoe:

Chkflip:

We don't no the reason for Chkflip lurky play, but we know that it was a side whide problem so we can assume RL. One example for Chkflips problems is viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15737&start=0, where he had to be replaced by a certain Sotty7 in lyo, where he had won if he just voted the player who was at L-1. (Chkflip was Mafia in this game and the game is over) So him lurking is null for me.

Awesome Poe wrote:

Now I have her whole attention because I look scummy and questioned his votes.

The her should be a his.
The second reason not quite. You have my attention (not my whole I am still looking at all players) and my vote because how you attacked me. There were some very bad reasenings in it. Some attacks looked like they came from nowhere and were just there to trow mud (The he might hammer argument exspecially) and the fact that you said I need proding for facts that you decleared unimportant before.
That you attacked me and questioned my play is null. If you really find that questionable than feel free to do that as townie. The how still doesn't make seens for me.

[StefanB]

To help Lylo in the game I posted beginns on page 39

[StefanB]

Hurristat wrote:

Mostly 1 and 4 stuck out to me -- but I guess it just seemed to me that you and AP had begun focusing on each other and no one else. I guess that's all.

I was going to tell you to vote for me if you think I'm scummier, but I don't know if you want someone at L-1 just yet.

There are 2 reasons for not votjumbing at the moment. First L-1, than the fact that I still think AP is scum.
Your AtE (apeal to emmotion) is noticed.
Okay the 2 weakest points of my accusation for you are:

I repeat what it wrote:

1. Starting a list, which main point was to make himself look better, and trowing dirt on certain players (from the points after it, I would say beside me, Haylen who he goes against at the moment and Deer) who looked for most players protown on day 1 (I give you that is one of the weaker points against him.

I give you that 1 is not the strongest of the 9 reasons (11 if you count day 1).

4 I dissagree:

4. Makes reason seem unimportant.

That at last bad play. Reasons are very important, to know what someone did, is at last as important to know why he did it. Some players would say its most important for mafia. Combine it with the fact that he said that and his reaction, when I posted my reason makes that very relevant.

Hurristat quotes again:

The reason for that -- I haven't played a game on mafiascum before, and I'm not acquainted with all the things that are considered scummy here (even though I read a lot of the wiki).

Very bad sentence, town should be that concerned whit what others see as scummy, it's more important for them what the themselve see as scummy. Using any reasons that are considered scummy somewhere else will probably not get you into trouble (if they make sense), you will just have to explaine them a bit. But you haven't used that other scumtells.

AwesomePoe wrote:

hurri’s comment, which was first, tells me he would have been watching the thread pretty closely during the night and would have an idea when the night would be over.

I looked if you were on somthing, but apperently not, That would have been great if he had posted 10 minutes after the night was over, 1 hour and 26 minutes after it, its null.

[StefanB]

Nocmen:

Okay the slight condridiction. It's indead a timethink. Haylen posted and explained why she didn't responded the day before. She also contributed more. Not so much that I'm sure she is town, but I had a protown read on her, day 1.

Nocmen wrote:

I really don't like this either, so far you've found haylen, nik, hurristat, and AP all scummy? This is too wishy-washy for my liking.

At different times: Haylen I found scummy on a short time on day 1 (didn't have that much was very impatient for her posts and wanted her to give us some insight.
Hurristat I found on day 1 looking a little protown, not so much on his day 2.

My scummylist was (from weakest to strongest) Nikitakit, AP and WIR ad the end of the day. (3 scum is much for a 2 personscumgame but that normal) I made mistakes on people, used day 1 to get reads on people and thats it. Nocmen if you play a game from day 1, thats not normal for you?

[StefanB]

Hurristat wrote (that will be more complicated than the answere to Nocmen:

I was going to tell you to vote for me if you think I'm scummier, but I don't know if you want someone at L-1 just yet.

This sentence I would call an appeal to Emotion (wiki), and it makes me said, angry...
I'm a little bit affraid that you would do a WIR on us Hurristat. If you are town improve your play and don't go sillent in the night.

Clearified of the Resons argument I will try: (tell me the number where I'm getting confusing.

1. There are two thinks in mafia, the thinks we do (facts) and the reasons why we do it.
2. Many mafiaplayers see reason as much as important as facts, some see them as more important for scumhunting.
3. AP was ignoring this reasons. He flat out stated that they were unimportant.
4. That's at last bad play.
5. Combined with other thinks he has done, exspecially his reaction, when I gave my reasons, proved that reasons are important.
6. That we does easily point out that reasons for somethink don't matter to Haylen in 202, is interesting to say the last.

Accepted that 5 Minutes days and that game are very different.

[StefanB]

AP: Okay, understand that her a bit. That sunding is different in German. I just thought that I would at the B to make me more unique. (Stefan is a very common name) The lurkingthink I will let someone else address perhaps an experienced player. (Zach would be funny, or Haylen should try, she did make this point on day 1 allready)

You are right, Hurristats comment wasn't null (I didn't want to say that) the timming of it was null. In itself fishing for a powerrolle it was very strange and I think noted by everone.

WIRs selfhammer is important, why? Yes we did lose a townie, it wasn't playing to win and we were wrong to think that WIR was mafia, but his flip doesn't tell us that much. So reacting to it (and loosing some steam like me) or not is more a question of playstile/personality not a alligment.

[StefanB]

I feal still better with the AP lynch, because for me he is the better case. (Can't see him as town) Also there isn't much of an excuse for Hurristats day 2 play, his rolefishing could still be a mistake. (Yes I know it's naive but still makes Hurristat look better than AP)
AwesomePoe is Doctorspekulating and he is speculating about the mafianighttarget nearly sounding sure about it. This is also to just explain a chance in gameplay on Ghostlin (where you don't need one, beside beeing more sure about the target)

Zach: The chanche in my game doesn't come completly from my learning the game. (I hope I do learn somethink) One of the main reason is a different situation: I have now reads about some of the players (not you and Nocmen obviously) and my vote is on Awesome Poe and I think thats the right position.
Your point wasn't missed completly, but thats only somethink that we can't do much about at the moment. I know I was bussy with answering Nocmen and Hurristats post and commended a little on AwesomePoes posts. Don't know what to do with Haylen, she isn't around unfortunatly. The problem was and also my problem with no pressing Haylen on the comment further before, (if you look, that was an answer to a question from me) that I always had ofter thinks to write about and sort of forgot asking Haylen more. But I will try to reach here (warning: Joke)

HAYLEN, HAYLEN, HAYLEN

[StefanB]

Nocmen what was so protown on Nikitakits play on day 1?
Huristat: Day 1 game me a feeling as trying, Nikitakit not so much. The point what is worse: scummy players or lurkers, is difficult (btw AP wasn't that active either. Question: Do you still want my reads day 1 or do you want to talk about my reads now. The first think is a fact that can't be chanced and your new points, have no place in the discusion (because they didn't play that much a role on day 1), if we talk about readings now thats a different think.

Haylen: Questions can wait until your exam, just don't go althunting again please.

Hurristat: Sorry for the AtE think, was an overreaction. Happy to hear that you will try. I will leave my vote on AP as long as I think he is scum and there is no need to chance (Deadline for example)
What I and some others don't like about your play is that you seem to be affraid to do somethink and don't really make choices. You are very passive. This is scummy because scum tryes to hide. Be more active (That doesn't mean posting more, but means try to get a read on thinks, ask questions, say your own opinion...) How many posts did it need to get you to say witch of my points about AP were in your opinion bad. Definitly to much.
I think that I would still be confusing if we play that game in German, unfortunatly.

[StefanB]

Okay, Hurristat you know that saying that somethink isn't somethink isn't the greatest argument, will probably chance an opinion.
The post that is most important for me was not Haylens post, it was 269, where you told me what you meant with your sentence and that I misunderstood you.
I have naturell a different opinion on our interaction on day 2. If you persue me what have you accuse me of concrete, besides some overreaction? Sorry if I got the opinion from you, but really I just don't get your case on me.
You are right of course that AP was docfishing, the custummeexplanation makes seens.
My main problem with your post are that some are okay and make sense (as townie) and some make me "What is that guy doing??????"

AwesomePoe:

A Back to the Futurerefference is cool, but as deffence no. Thats all your defence?

Haylen: What the ....? Thats all? Zach did question you, were did he say that you are scum? That's pretty much in OMGOS theretory, (even stronger because Zach wasn't votting for you) and puh thats all. And sorry meta is somethink that I know much as newbie but someones meta of you is so strong that he comes in a game and knows imidiatly your role? Thats somethink I have difficulties to believe.

AP-DOCPOST:

Ghostlin who was the most hands off player day one has changed his non-aggressive status. He is more determined about his voting strategy to the point that he has the next few days already planned for. Being the most town I half excepted him to be killed during the night. Either he protected himself or the doctor protected him, because I am not convinced that the mafia no killed. This may explain his more aggressive play needing a plan against the mafia

[StefanB]

Sorry Haylen, just concentraiting on the Zachrulezpart (I leave the Chkflippart out, where you have an argument, but one that isn't as strong.)
If I interprette you right. Your point on Zach is:
1. He know Scum-Haylen.
2. He attacks you, but should know you are not scum.
3. He would like to kill you as scum.
4. So he is attacking you so he is likly to be scum.

So basicly you voted him because he attacked you, but should know better, right? So if you leave out Meta (sorry that's somethink that I can't comment about, since Nocmen considers himself still a newbie, that would be a question for Zach and yourself, sorry you are both not neutral enough to get an answer)
So basicly you are voting him, because he attacked you with a little metathink (and a reason for Chkflip)
Sorry but the Zachpart of your argument is close to OMGOS at last the parts I can understand. (Sorry complicated Meta and this is complicated is nothink you can really exspect people who haven't played a lot on this site to completly understand)

Your stand on Poe is interesting. I don't want him hammered before he clams, but can you give us a bit more, why you think he is probably town? I'm very convinced that he is scum, but a lot of the thinks he did you make no sense as town. Yet you read him as town. You are our IC (have a lot of experience) can you help us to understand you PoV?

Ghostlin:

I want the claim. His joke would have been cool if it were the beginning, as the only defence, it's bad.

[StefanB]

Warning Hurristat is at L-1.

He is mostly VLA until the 6th.

Nocmen: Sorry, just took the:

4. Well I've played a few games, but I'd probably still call myself a complete newbie.

you posted in 235 perhaps a bit to serious. So SEs are Nocmen, Zach, Deer (and however replaces him) and Ghostlin (you became it while playing I think) right?

The OMGOS-part: Sorry I misunderstood. I thought OMGOS is voting for someone that is voting you, for the reason that he is voting you. Basicly Haylen's argument is that whith meta as reason for it. But okay it is acedemic.

Sorry I don't know how much time I have this weekend, somethink happened that is bad (not really somethink completly horrible, but it will need more work)

[StefanB]

Upps, sorry. Yes AP voted Deer, thanks Ghostlin.

[StefanB]

Haylen wrote:

Btw, just for info guys. It's really poor form to lynch somebody whilst they're V/LA, it's one of those few things that make me yell in a game.

Not that I wouldn't suscripe to that, generally. (I would make an exaption for deadline, that sucks to for the player but is somethink that may be necessary) At the same time I don't think you should ignore someone completly because he is V/LA.
No the question i how did you mean that, as warning for the whole town (understandable) or to critice Ghostlins vote. (which is not even near lynch)

Ghostlin wrote:

What AP didn't say was much more interesting then what he did.

Hm? Don't really understand that sentence. I am still quite sure in my vote on AP (if not I would have unvoted), and I thought his defence wasn't that great. Points he has cleared not very much. What he didn't say, hm claim doctor? That would not have worked.

Just a curious off top thing: does anyone but me notice Zach's got a vote on AP, but is trying to, at the same time, arouse suspicion on both me and Haylen without as much as an FoS?

Notice and guilty of it to. The problem with having one vote and not using FOS. What is really interesting is how Zach is doing it. He is just using little remarks without really making it clear if he thinks some thinks are strange, potential bad play (everone makes mistakes) or scummy. Corrious.

At all:

I feel kind of bad for Nocmen. He made a lot of work and asked questions to ever player in post 235 and 238 but a lot of you didn't answer him, that's not nice.

[StefanB]

Welcome Nobody Special (Kind of hope that we get Somebody Special )

Ghostlin: The townclaim hm. Sorry but puh, I think a full claim would be better here.
Good luck whit your case on Hurristat.

Okay game makes my head hurt in the moment.

[StefanB]

Hm, defending oneself by trying to make clear why you did some thinks, doesn't seem to be standard anymore.
Cases:

AP whole day 2.
Ghostlin: The Nocmenpoints
Zach: Ghostlins atack.

My vote on AP stays, make an exeption for deadlinereasons to avoid a no lynch, but that's the only then.

I can see some of Ghostlins points, and I can see Zach to become a candidate tomorrow.

Ghostlin:

I don't like Zach's play that much to be honest. The fact that chkflip had been pretty much lurking and posted not much real stuff concerns me.

First sentence yes. Second sentence, if you ignore that Chkflip had those problem sidewhide at this time, and that's screams RL than it becomes null.

On the other hand Ghostlin I think you are wrong in the point that AP hinted at a powerrole and we should leave him allive forthat reason. Sorry that's very wide speculation and gave scum to much power if done regulary.

Other question I would still like an answer to: Haylen you think that AP is not scum, why? (Yes I'm repeating Ghostlin's question, I asked the same think but a lot more complicated, so I take the easy version)

[StefanB]

Congratulation to AwesomePoe he managed to make his waggon almost disapere by not posting and being not concrete at the right time.
Zach and Ghostlin don't make the lynch stop that is most logical. Voting for each other doesn't help if you are both town.

Yes town has a slight chance to confirme the setup, but that would be luck, getting the roleblocker.

So now to the defence of Zach:
0-9 have to give him that different playstyle is not scum.
If you post quite some content, the fact that you posted a bit of fluff is not so important.
Will not go at all points, but at the beggining that's some of the very weak attacks.

My lynch candidates: AwesomePoe
I won't hate to lynch Hurristat
Not lynching: Ghostlin, even if I think he is wrong at the moment like hell.
Susspicios: Haylen and Zach

What I dislike: Atacking everthink some posts, even if they are scum, normaly that just makes the good points weaker.

At all: We should perhaps not start new waggons, we are near deadline, we need a lynch.

[StefanB]

Hello AP, lol on my name it must be really difficult for you.

AP wrote:

There was one major difference in play, the fact that cflip voted and nikit did not, in fact could not since he asked to be replaced and made it clear why he had to be replaced.

Drop the second one, please. Nikitakit asking to be replaced was a good think to do but that has nothing to do whit play more with personality.
The second why is Chkflips votting more suspicios than Nikitakits not voting? You seem to have a problem with voting.
BTW: How do you fell about your unstable vottingpattern today?

AP wrote:

Look at his bolding comments pattern. It’s an ineffectual way of making a defense, because its not. It only flags comments he doesn’t like without addressing the core argument.

Hm? What does that mean, sorry just don't understand it.

Interesting that you don't make your claim clear (sure you want to live), noted.

BTW: Hurristat should post tonight his V/LA is over, good night.

[StefanB]

Hurristat wrote:

Honestly, I don't mind, as long as you don't hammer me while I was V/LA.

That's exactly what to lynch means here. As long as you are not V/LA very near deadline that's a big no.

Welcome back Hurristat, you haven't miss mutch beside the APWagon losing stream whitch is bad.
Sorry if someone is very much likly scum, doesn't really defend himself and on L-1 doesn't claim a powerrole you don't unvote, you lynch. (The last sentence is not directed at Hurristat)

[StefanB]

GLaDOS

: Not that I like it, but Ghostlin is voting Zachrulez at the moment. Joined before AwesomePoe.

[StefanB]

Hurristat it wasn't about you, it was about AwesomePoe.
And if someone claimed a powerrole that is a reason to unvote (If the claim is belivibel) and defending themselves is important.
Will try again.
Someone scummy, voted on L-1.
Defend himself? If you think the defence is good, you can unvote. If no continue.
Claims a powerrole. Lynching the player is often not the best play. If the player doesn't do it, continue.
Lynch.
If players are good that shouldn't hurt town, if you give someone enough time to respond.

Sorry hope thats understandable. What do you think should have happened after AwesomePoes claim(?).

[StefanB]

Ghostlin: Interesting post, that you choose to state that, the one where I told the mod the Votecount is wrong.

Ghostlin wrote:

Let me be blunt here for a minute: we need to lynch

today

(meaning in the gamestate).

Yes I know and that means we should decied soon and not start new waggons. I am very much convinced that we should try to lynch the right person.

AP has claimed Town; but not VT. I found that curious. The rest of town did not.

The rest wrote is as either VT or thinks its not a good idea to let someone live who is so unclear (that's me). If we do that, we are don't need claims anymore.

We've not gotten an idea of what hurri has by way of claims.

That's right but he wasn't at L-1, so ne need to claim.

Oh, and the vote analysis which clears him.

The vote analysis doesn't clear him, he made some work which is good, but that doesn't even make it more likly he is town. It was an instrument to start attacks.

Seemingly clears Zach (chkflip was not on the WIR wagon).

Funny think is it doesn't. Even if you go by his words. He said, that he believes that at last one scum is on the waggon. (that means that at last one can be off the waggon)

Yes we need to lynch and in my opinion AP is still the best candidate. What information will us a Zachflip really give? Plus that I'm sure we lynch scum in AP and not a PR.

[StefanB]

Okay that's for me the right linch.

Haylen wrote:

As i've said, I've never seen newbie scum take the time and effort to do a full vote count analysis followed by graphs and if I'm reading him correctly, most of what's been said about him seems to be genuine mistakes he's made.

How often have you seen newbie town doing it? We don't kniw how common graphs are for AwesomePoe, so I could be that that isn't that much work for him. And some of his post just make no sense from a town perspective.

1) Yep, I find meta to be extremely important in games, probably because my favourite topic in psychology is Individual Differences. Impossible, there have been games where I have failed to change my meta and totally failed. The failproof way to find out my alignment is to see if I genuinely believe what I'm arguing. If I do, then I'm town. That's an observation by a player who knows me extremely well and has seen samples of my play over the past 2 years. I consider meta to be important if the person has played enough games (enough to qualify as an IC), otherwise I don't advocate it's usage.

Thanks for telling us that. In think your secret scumtell is somethink that can help us with ofter players too.
I give you that meta may be a good weapon to judge players, but to convice the rest of the players you should either:
a) give them enought that the can see the meta themselfs.
b) search for thinks that support x=scum more that are provable, because lynching only on your word is somethink I have problems with (that goes for every player

Metaquestion:
1. If have heared that meta is more effective if you have played that game yourself. In your experience right?

I try to give an isocase for AP tomorrow. (yeah really short befor deadline, sorry) If you rather want an other lynch fight for that lynch.

[StefanB]

Sorry Nocmen: I meant the APLynch. That was a little timezoneproblem, I was happy that AP got from back from L-3 to L-1, that I didn't think about what it meaned that I posted that after Ghostlins case on Hurristat. So Ghostlin is correct.
Hurristat: PBP means Post by Post aka a complet analysis.
Okay deadline-extention: Thanks GLaDOS, even if a sundaydeadline will be difficult (just saying).

[StefanB]

Okay AwesomePoe:

Iso 0: Starts by voting Deer (RVS probably), follos WIR on that waggon, gives a strange ressons for that.
He has already given me such a scummy void, his post are like black darkness bottoming out under the universe.

ISO 2: Unvotes Deer, FOS WIR. Exect being snarky, not very suspicios.

ISO 3: Votes WIR for the Deerconfirmationvote. Second on a waggon started by Halen.

ISO 4: Scum would never do... Don't like that. Tryes to beginning questioning Ghostlin and me about Ghostlin.

After that Post he vanished for 1 Day. He vanished afterwards some more.

ISO 5: Defends himself against Chkflip, does stop the Ghostlinquestioning in a confusing way.

ISO 6: Unconfuse the Ghostlinstory (or tryes to anyway), forms some mild suspicion on Hurri and asks Deer a question.

ISO 7: Completly about WIR. Want's him to defend himself. Interesting he doesn't defend himself much later.

End of day 1, mostly about WIR, very tunelling, lurker.

Day 2:

ISO 8: His vottinganaylise. While that was okay (Problems some Unvoteperiods are missing and Ghostlins short first WIRVote)
His analysis isn't good and sometimes unlogical. Had problems with it, but Post 8 alone was not scummy.
Votes Nikitakit part of a waggon.

ISO 11: His first stating that reasons don't matter and that my vote is worth less because of day 1.
Tryes to downplay his one waggoning. Switch on the Chkflipposition which had a good read before.

ISO 12: Unvotes Nikitakit and doesn't vote for some time.
From that on he calls me scummy, but doesn't vote for me. The nice acidentendly hammer argument.

ISO 13: The post were he convinced me that he is scum. He tryes to play it as his big victory, that he now has my
reasons. Reason he never wanted that were easy to find in the game.
Moves to Haylen. After that he had his case from me, he never responded to.

ISO 14: Tryes to slow the game down. Not very important for me but one of his better posts.

ISO 15: Haylenattack 2: Again says reasons that time Haylens don't matter.

ISO 17: Does again talk about Haylen.
His first reason for attacks at the moment: frustration.

ISO 19: Another very scummy one.
For him Ghostlin is town.
Sees Nikitakit and Chkflip different because Nikitakit asked about replacement and Chkflip just vanished.
The docspeculation in the terrible Ghostlinsplaychanchepart.
The Hurristat is scummy because he posted only shortly after GLados opened the tread again (unfortunatly it was about
1,5 hours afterwards) argument. Acouses Hurristat of Docfishing.
Votes Hurristat

ISO 20:

More on Hurristat after 19.
His we must chance because of WIRselfhammer and Night 1.
His very strange will lynch Deer first commend.

ISO 22: Asked Hurristat about his comment on WIRsselfhammer, which is very strange.

ISO 23: Not defence against the docisue.
Softclaims town.
More an dead WIR.

ISO 25: His defence against Zach. Not a very good one.
Most important point for him seems to be the 8 sentences.

Defends himself in ISO 26 and 27 by accusing Zach.

ISO 30: His townclaim, not much defense else.
Votes Deer

ISO 31: Votes Zach for his attack on Ghostlin and his general plan. Says nothink about the confusing ISO 30 caused.
Opportunistic vote?

ISO 32: More an Zach. Tryes to anylyses the hammercandidates.

Okay, I tryed to be as fair as a cold and listed his posts that I think are important.
Just to say it, I was suspicios on AP at the begging of day 2, he really earnt his vote on this day.

[StefanB]

I would also like to hear more from NS, even if it's only an "I am at page ..." post.

Haylen: I didn't try to make new content. I just wanted to give an overview on AwesomePoes play, what has he done what are the most important thinks on his play, what is the case against him...
I thought since he is one of the lynchkandidates my post could help people who are not sure or are NS to see what was important of his play.
AwesomePoe vanishing is nothing new.
Also:

THE NICE NEW ACTIVITY OVERVIEW SAYS HE DOES!!!

Were is that from?

[StefanB]

AwesomePoe wrote:

There isn't a real reason for you not to lynch me. Its the only why for people to be sure about my alignment, and there are no other real candidates.

I think the main reason that there isn't a reason to not lynch you, is that you over zero defence. Sorry the only one who tryed to make points that you are not mafia was Haylen.

I have no idea why NS asked for more time to read the thread, because honestly if he hammered, that would be awful. NS hasn't been seen as pro-town yet. A hammer from him would look more scummy than anything I ever did.

Hm, a deadlinehammer is always a difficult think. Asking for time to read the tread and give insight is not wrong.

I also find it unsettling that StefanB took the time to do a PBPiso on me. That effort is wasted because I am already here to hang and there is nobody else to convince that I should be here.

So you think making sure that the in my opinion right person is hanged is unsettling? Analyzing your play is a wast of time? Puh, you make lynching you very easy.

[StefanB]

Twilight, hm.
We had a deadline extension, but I can see Haylen not beeing sure of it, because GLaDOS never posted the exact new deadline.
Ghostlin: Our fight on day 2 was mild. My point was more that I thought your reason for the unvote was not good and to let get AP away with his sotclaim would have been terrible.
On people to watch: The play between AP-Chkflip/Zach was interesting.
First AP (day 1, beginning day 2) is really pro-Chkflip then after I said that Chkflip wasn't very active day 1, there he was the complete oposite. Only interesting, if AP flips scum, what I am pretty sure he will.
The Haylen-Ap interaction was also interesting.
Hurristat desserves looking independently on day 3, the big question will we see him doing something active (or to be nice doing it more) (That doesn't mean activity in posting, it's about substance in the post)
Nobody Special should arive day 3. Then we can judge him.

[StefanB]

And yes everone can see the active overview, I just asked Haylen because I didn't see it at first. (To my defence it's small and easy to overlook)

[StefanB]

Goodbye Ghostlin thanks for your play.
So we are now Haylen, Hurristat, Nobody Special, Nocmen, Zach and me.
That means Mylo, so no lynch is an alternative today.
At the moment I don't know if it helps us. While voting is not so dangerous as tomorrow, think before you do it.

[StefanB]

Plus a lynch will need to have an unity on all townies (okay tomorrow too)

[StefanB]

Thought a little bit about that no lynch.
Will not vote for it. Normally not lynching is done quickly in mylo to give mafia no information, who is the correct target. I think mafia knows what we think about each other, so that shouldn't be an isue.
Then you hope that the mafiakill makes it more easy to determinene who is mafia. That is the question for everyone does it?
We should use the rules of the game, that means that if 4 of uns don't vote for a lynch at deadline there will be no lynch. So be careful who you vote for think very good before you place a vote, think very good before you place a vote that leads to a waggon.
The good think about mylo is that scum needs 2 confused townies thats better than one.

Hurristat: Your problem is called active lurking. You are not attacking that much, not taking sides... A good example is post 443, who do you personaly suspect of beeing mafia?
Ghostlins read or interesting and I personaly aggree that they are good, but I was wrong about AwesomePoe, too. You are talking about post 431 the twilight post. Ghostlin was doc, he didn't know much more than the other townies, but his reads are honest, they are a good starting point.

About me, I'm certainly not trying to remain aloof of the town, but beeing an active part of it.

from Hurristats post:

Zachrulez: his spat with Ghostlin gives me pause, and several of the things he has said kind of make a metaphorical exclamation point pop up over my head, but there is this to consider: Ghostlin (town) switched off of AP (town), because he thought that AP was trying to do something -- and onto Zachrulez, with whom he had a small fight.

The point about the thinks to consider. Why is it relevant?
Zach: Why do you vote no lynch?

[StefanB]

Zach: That explains why it would be a good idea to make a no lynch at the end of the day.
But that wasn't my question exactly.
My question was why you are voting no lynch at the moment. What does it help that we end the day and vote no lynch now?
That doesn't seem to help town. An early no lynch is better at the moment for mafia.

Nobody Special: Okay, that's not good neews. Can you give us at last somethink at the moment?

Okay the players: (I allready talked about Hurristat and Zach so now the rest)

I take Hurristat's quote as a beginning:

Haylen: usually ICs in these games are able to separate themselves from the pack and be viewed as town, even if they're mafia... I really haven't had an entirely pro-town read of Haylen at any point in the game. She also hammered on AP two days before the deadline. Haylen: did you actually think AP was scum or did you just hammer so that the town would have a result to work with at this point in the game?

Question against that: What actually speaks for Mafia-Haylen at the point? That qestion goes to everyone. Would the extra to days have help? The only think we were waiting for was Nobody Special posting, somethink that we know now did never happen. What I have to say is that here read on AP was right, her problem was selling the idea to us and that the day was at it's end.

Will Iso Nocmen. Have to say it he is a bit under my radar, exspecially if you see Hurristat, Zach and Nobody Special at the moment.

[StefanB]

And question for the more experienced players: You think you have found somethink, you are unfortunatly the only one, someone else bringing it forward would help the town, you bringing it forward destroys it, pretty much.
What should you do?

[StefanB]

Argh, badly worded.
Bringing it forward will not destroy the town, it will only destroy any value the information has, because it makes the information untrustworthy because I bring it forward and I'm the last person you want to bring it forward. Everyone can find it, so no private information.

Haylen: That is clear, my last post wasn't mean as an attack to your hammer.

[StefanB]

Hurristat: I'm not asking you who you are shure is scum, I'm asking you who you persionaly find suspicios. I don't find that in 443. If your play would have been different, day 2, wouldn't say much about this post. My problem the moment is the question: Is Hurristat scum and you make the answer not very easy.

Hurristat wrote:

It's entirely relevant. Ghostlin switched off of AP for some reason unbeknownst to us, and AP ended up as town, and Ghostlin had more information than us, as doctor.

Ghostlin had from night one exactly one information more than any of us: Who he protected. This person for him should be nearly confirmed inocent (the nokill of the mafia), I think it's highly unlickly that he would have voted AP or Zach, if one of them was the one he protected. If you leave that away, Ghostlins reading are aggread by me, but he can make erroers.

Nocmen wrote:

This, SB, is the reason for the no lynch. Today we have a 2/6 chance of a scum lynch. Tomorrow is a 2/5 chance. That's assuming pure randomness though, but still, it gives us one less person to possibly mislynch.

And I am questioning if the numbers make up for the lynching making up for the chanche of scum orginizing a quicklynch easier and the not using time. Of course everone agrees that a confirmed inocent would chanche everythink.

[StefanB]

Okay yes you said Nocmen looked scummy. So he is your mainsuspect?
Hurristat my problem is not that I want to find players scummy, I want to find less players scummy to have an easier lyo, if that happens.

[StefanB]

Just one theoryquestion about distancing:
Is it comon that scum votes each other in RVS or is that to obvious?

[StefanB]

Nobody Special: The problem is that everyone is waiting for you at the moment, so people are impatient, you already need a long time for 20 pages.

[StefanB]

Interesting reads, from Nobody Special.
3 strange points.
Nocmen:
From your analysis when you joint the game, you thought the following post had Ghostlin teaching a scumbuddy. We know now this is wrong, but could you make clear why you believe that.
The Post was:

StefanB wrote:
Just to ad somethink that we should take into accont. A lot of people are very quite, to quite to read them. Most people should post more. As alternative to lynch WIR I would sugest to lynch one of the worst lurkers, the problem is who? Lurking through game is a strategie of mafia, but to much townies are using it at the moment too. Form opinions, ask questions do somethink!
Lurkers at the Moment: Chkflip, huristat (the only one I won't lynch, because the problems should be over soon), nikitakit (still waiting on your 3rd post)
Hell: Deer and WIR could be called semilurkers at the moment and I really wait for Haylen to post. (If you subtract the IC posts there isn't that much Haylenplayerpostings) The last one may be me being impatient, she has better reason than some others, but it's frustrating.

Important: IF the DISCUSION between Ghostlin and me is the problem, just ignore it. It isn't at the front at the moment, just start to play.

The Ghostlinpost:

This is acutally a fairly decent post: I don't believe in lynching all lurkers; however inactivity at certain times can be an indicator of scumminess. I'm hoping for more posts from nikita, quite frankly, and more content from huristat.

I wouldn't advocate the bolded seriously, tho'. If it impares your reading now, skip over it, but RETURN to it. Read both of us in iso and what we're really trying to say as the days drag on. Do not discard anything anyone says, and don't afraid to apply pressure when you've got something to latch onto.

Oh, and Ghostlin's number one mafia rule of things that annoy Ghostlin: do not ever argue, 'well, that's stupid, town/scum would never play that way.' First off, there are people who do suboptimal play in all alignments. Some of them do it as a gambit. Two, you can turn this into a case without resorting to 'too stupid to be town/scum.' Three, it's vaguely insulting. I'd rather advocate that people are competent, even if new, then not.

I quoted mine for content also.

Haylen: Somethink doesn't add up. You said that learning if you have scum-Haylen or town-Haylen is easy, so why do you win so often as scum?

My theorotical question isn't so theoretical. Deer(now NobodySpecial) and Chkflip (now Zach) voted each other in RVS. Too obvious or posible distancing?

NS: This time you are definitive not so inocent, that your slot is looked at. The long time you needed for that post hurt that slot. For me thats not enough to go into night, yet.

Nobody Special and Zach voting it is interesting.

[StefanB]

Nope, but I think ending the day quickly is bad play.

[StefanB]

/bah GO TOWN

[StefanB]

Congratulation Nocmen and Zachrules, exspecially Nocmen you were the one of the three survivors that I thought was very townie. So the connections between Chkflip and Deer bzw NS and Zach were all confidence?

[StefanB]

How did you deduce that Ghostlin was the doc?
Btw: I realised who was protected by Ghostlin at the beginning of day 3, but didn't find a way to post that, that would have helped town. I was as subtil as a sledgehammer to get town realise that. Was to subtile.
And then nolynch without much discusion, not the best idea.
Funny as hell, Zachs "You don't belive Town killed WIR alone, without mafia" (just from my memory to leazy to look what he realy wrote), we did really do that.
Sorry to AwesomePoe for lynching him, that we completly my mistake.
But while loosing is somethink that is never somethink you want that was a good first game, thanks all.
Interesting enough was the going from Haylen = townfeeling to a lot of Haylen is scum on 3rd day. It came out of nowhere.

Haylen you want some feedback on your ICPerformance for that bet with the other ICs. How should we give that feedback.

[StefanB]

Nocmen:

Ghost had a very high town read of him, as opposed to hurri and or Haylen who had doubts about him.

You mean the same Haylen that declared I was town on day 1 right?

The funny think is that I thought Hurristat was a powerrole (that was the reason I didn't push for his lynch and that I was never sure if Mafia or town)

Ghostlin:

That and the Back to the Future reference. I acutally saw the Night 2 Kill coming when I asked myself, 'If I was scum, who would I kill? Fuck, it's me, isn't it?'

I still doesn't understand why tbtFreference was a reason pro AP.
Yes sorry I know before that Mafia would kill you on night 2, olso, if you weren't the night 1 kill, the doc protected.
Sorry for not making much of the chance of a second life.

Nocmen: NL without a discusion is a good idea, exspecially if you know who is going to be nightkilled?
Okay one of the reason why I was against the NL was that I knew that Ghostlin protected me (His twilight post), but exspecially because of NS I was no fan of NL.

[StefanB]

Hurristat wrote:

Code: Select all

Oh, and all those mistakes I made:

1) asking about L-2
2) I didn't know that congratulating the doc was considered as doc-hunting
3) getting confused about the setup

1. You are new to this site, so mistakes are normal, I think 1 happens all the time in newbiegames.
2. Interesting that one is propably due to sitemeta and the Jeeptells. I found the docspeculation from AP worse and funny enough there was a big mistake in it.
3. You, Haylen and NS I think, so thats not that bad.

The problem I had with you was scumhunting this is one think that you want to do more.


Haylen:

You were a good IC, the big problem was the moment were you weren't sure in witch game you were. Don't play to many games (and don't mod to much, if it gets to stressful for you) and get well completly. You shouldn't have posted at night if you don't have much to say (at this time). The other question was why you posted "Don't lynch Stefan" when I wasn't in much danger to be lynched?