Newbie 1060: It's a Murder Mystery (Game Over)

[GreyICE]

mammut (2) - snowjorden, Primate
Voidedmafia (2) - Sarg338, mb53
Primate (1) - mammut
Sarg338 (1) - Voidedmafia

Not Voting (9)

- GreyICE, mammut, mb53, Mhi200, Primate, Sarg338, snowjorden, Voidedmafia, Zensei[/i]

Vote: Sarg338

Vote: mb53

Vote: mammut

Vote: Voidedmafia

Having multiple votes in a newbie game is very scummy! And they all obviously have two!

Also, I'm GreyICE, a SE, yadda yadda, might do an introduction at some point. I hear people around here like walls, so I'll make it long and rambling.

[GreyICE]

You are all secret double voters!

Unfortunately you didn't realize I was the in-game QUAD VOTER!

You're all going down.

[GreyICE]

Thank god I'm also a Mason with mb53 the DayVig! Quick, mb53, dayvig the Jester!

[GreyICE]

Meh, Mhi is going to flake at somepoint, Zensei is probably scum

PEDIT: RUN IT'S A ROBOCOP. Thanks for bmodding for us btw

[GreyICE]

I'm not laid back. I'm insane. Soon scum will be found, and then we will see the difference, oh yes we will...

[GreyICE]

Yep, and we're now way way out of RVS.

Unvote

vote: Zensei

*waits for primate*

[GreyICE]

You act as if you expect Prime to whole-heartedly agree with you. Suspicious, isn't it?

Yep, definitely is. Which is why I wanna know why he thinks I made that vote.

[GreyICE]

@VoidedMafia: No I'm not. If I tell everyone everything I'm thinking and expect them to nod their heads, how would I ever find out how they think? And if I don't know how they think, how do I ever find out when they're thinking like scum instead of like town?

Also the pictures are wearing out their welcome

[GreyICE]

Grey is there a point in the game in which you become useful? Or do you intend to play this way entirely?

"I want to see why he thinks I'm voting him" is a very bad way to play. Aren't you supposed to be IC/SE? Or are you just challenged? The guru playstyle doesn't really work out. And is just anti-town. Not sure if you're wanting me to respond to your vote some way, but there's not much one can say against nothing.

Helpfulness is highly overrated, as is question and answer sessions. In general, it's interesting to see people's thought patterns.

In this case, I wanted to see several things. First, I wanted to see how you reacted to the votes. You have been acting very forced, and I'm curious what the vote would do. In this case, your response was very townie. You looked over the original posts, decided what was offputting, and then

didn't change it.

You responded that you were here to catch scum, not make friends. If you had modified your behavior to 'fit in' with the rest of us, I would have kept the vote here, but because you didn't, you're not trying to appease the town - you're trying to accomplish our goal of catching scum. That makes you town.

Unvote

Second, I wanted to see how the rest of the town reacted. Primate ignored me. Fair enough, I wasn't doing anything that he needed to respond to, and he didn't respond. I'll push that, but the IC is the IC, and he'll do what he does.

Sarg looked over Zensei's ISO to figure out why I placed the vote I did. He came away with similar conclusions to me, and decided that it was a decent place for his vote, and put it there. I would assume if he found no reason for my vote, it would be on me. That's a town motivation.

mb53 hasn't reacted to much. He seems to want to be helpful, but generally stay out of things. He was much more aggressive last game, but meta can be very fail. You have to tune your approach to the people you're dealing with. In the last game, we had a good half the town lurking and a lot of stalls, so the game required aggression to keep things around. It was pro-town. Here, things are moving well enough. I'll be watching him, you should too, but he's null.

mammut feels persecuted, but it's a newbie game. People are going to be a little thin-skinned. Makes it hard to find tells, but that's okay.

VoidedMafia likes having everything out in the open and explained to him. This seems reasonably pro-town on the face of it, because secrets help the scum hide, but also allows the scum to figure out what everyone is thinking and adapt their behavior to be unsuspicious. Which brings us to...

The most interesting reactions I've seen to anything. Review SnowJordan's ISO.

I've played these games at various other forums and we usually start off just random voting to see who bites. I'll continue that tradition in this game..

I will do something to fit in with the town, no pressure meant here.

Kid went to sleep, thought I'd get up and check this. And ..another page. Sweet jesus. So I'm still kinda at a point where I've got nothing worthwhile to add to the conversation nor do I feel like we've made any ground. Usually is the case during the first day of a game. Either way, just wanted to speak up since some might have noticed I was "browsing this forum."

Doesn't make any waves, nothing to add to the discussion. Seems to want to wait for day 2. Day 1 is the toughest day for scum, because they have had no opportunity to lay the groundwork for their attacks or their role, and have no idea the personalities involved. Day 2+ they can kill off the people most likely to suspect them, and lay suspicion on others. This is very interesting, especially in combination with his bandwagon comment.

Just cause I feel left out ..I wanted to post some awesome pictures.

Doing something just to be town. Then throw some suspicion around.

^ That's why I didn't randomly vote anyone ..cause right, we are out of the RVS. I FOSd dude, cause ..well I can and I've wanted to for a while this game.

Caution. He doesn't want to be leading the wagon on a townie because it draws too much attention. He wants to throw suspicion so someone else leads the wagon.

Vote: SnowJordan

[GreyICE]

Voided, I'll be entirely honest with you. I don't care if you see my reasoning for a vote or not. I was curious what the responses would be to a naked vote on someone who I felt needed pressure. I made it, I got responses. I believe this helped the town more than me putting on a dog and pony show would have. Everyone having the same logical procedure for catching scum is not helpful to the town, because then the scum only have to act in a way that appeases one person's reasoning. Multiple approaches help establish multiple factors for the scum. If I play differently than you, it means together we are a stronger team than either of us alone. If I play similarly to you, it means that together, we are roughly as effective as one of us alone.

I won't give reasoning for everything I do, but I'm an SE in a newbie game, I will hand it out more often than I do elsewhere. I will also be playing less aggressively than I do elsewhere, I learned that from 1049 (aggression is often though scummy, when more often it is very pro-town - if somewhat uncomfortable). It can be a great way to wake up a town of lurkers, but we don't have that here, thankfully (so far I like the people here (which doesn't mean I won't lynch you if you're scum ). If you want more examples of my play, there is a button labeled "Wiki" under my Avatar (look on the left of my post). You'll see my play varies from game to game - meta cases can be useful, but don't rely on them. BTW, this brings me to useful tools! Which will be its own post.

[GreyICE]

Checking in. Nothing new to add. Have fun with your vote on me GreyICE, it's pointless cause I'm not scum. But it's hard to change someones opinion when you can't just out yourself. So it's cool. Hopefully someone fucks up and we get a break to go on.

...

...

Yeah, I feel totally convinced here.

[GreyICE]

I have no need to come up with a defense at this point. It's not like he (GreyICE) has any sort of solid evidence as to why he suspects that I'd be "scum," he just simply said that he thought my posts were fishy. Okay ..well ..cool glad you think they are fishy. It's just me being, me. I'm eccentric or whatever you want to call it. No more so then the dude who continues to post pictures in every single reply he makes.

So defense? No ..no thanks. If you guys choose to try and move forward with this lynch ..well, that's a mistake and the town will lose. If there's 2 scum and 3 townies .. and you get rid of me, that leaves it at 2 - 2 and if the scum kills one of you cause you miss a block or something, end game instantly. Wow ..that'd be smart.

So no, no defense. No need for one. Now I'm having a cigarette break and going to bed for the night. G'day boys.

Well I feel remarkably happy with where my vote is at.

[GreyICE]

Yeah, snowjordan has been following this game so closely that he just figured out there's 9 players in it.

"You're making a mistake if you lynch me! You're making a mistake if you lynch me!"

No, no I really don't think I am.

And ..after just now reading over the Moderators posts ..I realize where I've come to a sort of huge fuck up in my thinking. There are 9 players in this game, not 5. I kept thinking 5, cause it takes 5 to reach a lynch. Ah hell, so my whole 3-2 and 2-2 theory is shot to hell. Phew! That's actually quite relieving at this point.

Anyone else read this as 'shit, they have 3 more lynches to catch my buddy?' 'cause I do. That "phew" was so fucking faked that it's not even funny.

Anyone who was stressed like hell that they HAD to lynch scum today might be following the game closely enough they'd catch on that there's, y'know, a few more than five players. Anyone coasting waiting for 1 little mislynch to win, on the other hand... well, you tell me. Fit in, don't make any noise, they'll lynch someone else.

Will we? Will we really?

[GreyICE]

Also I think it's a little odd that someone who doesn't know the amount of players in the game would assume there is a scum roleblocker, but that's probably nothing.

When I was thinking the numbers were 2 scum and 3 town, I'd have guessed the scum roles were night kill and role block. Now that I'm up to speed and realize we aren't playing a 5 person game (seems so dumb to me now), I'd think there's probably more like 3 scum, which means probably still night kill and role block, but add in a recruiter maybe?

I dunno. I was just going with the most obvious.

IoA setup speculation. Woah boy.

I think it's fair to say

at a minimum

he hasn't read the thread.

Snow, read the rules at the start of the thread, then get back to me. I'm not moving my vote, but at least we can have a semi-sane lynch today.

[GreyICE]

Really man? I wasn't born yesterday.

[GreyICE]

I think both voided and snowjordan actually came out of that argument pretty well.

Ugh, please don't claim scumbuddy on day 1, this makes me sad

[GreyICE]

Please explain how you got "claiming scumbuddies" out of "compliment Snow and I".

'cause that ain't no sort of read. We got alllllll sorts of reads out of that fun incident, and that's what he got out of the post?

Possibilities:
1) You're both town - saying he thinks you're both town means less mislynches, or he has to go back on a read
2) One of you is scum - he can either finger the right one (on day 1), and throw the weight of an IC at scum, or finger the wrong one and find himself in a sticky wicket.
3) Both of you are scum - not possible.

So noncommittal. So no effort put into getting a read. So no arguments thrown out there. Come on man, don't just move past that without posting reads and go bug the lurkers.

[GreyICE]

3) Both of you are scum - not possible.

How so?

...

Hmm, look through their posts and find signs that they're both scum and this was a coordinated dance.

[GreyICE]

Well, if thats all you meant ICE then ok, I just find impossible as rather definitive. I'm pretty sure no-one has been proven Town beyond all doubt.

Ah, then who are the two most likely to be town here, do you think, and the two most likely to be scum?

[GreyICE]

I don't know for sure what anyone is, most have done some scummy thing or other, but that doesn't mean their scum, as Voided pointed out.

Just the two most likely to be town and the two most likely right now. Not proof, just who you think is which.

[GreyICE]

Anyone remember us having a wagon on Mammut? If so it was pretty lame, I didn't see any L-1.

[GreyICE]

mb53

Bad habit of masking the OP in his quote. That isn't pro-town.
Seems in control of the game (SE)

Probably town

Do elaborate some here. You listed two things that aren't pro-town, and then said "probably town." I can't help feeling something is missing from your reads.

[GreyICE]

My synthesis work isn't finished, and the one I have been particularly monitoring are Sarg338, VoidedMafia, Snowjorden and Primate. This is why I didn't elaborate that much on you, Zensei, Mhi, and mb. Don't worry that will come.

In the mean time, you could have notice that I also describe you as "being in control of the game" which you didn't feel to answer.

I don't really feel the need to answer it. I've made my points and made my suggestions, but at no point do I think I'm really trying to lead the town around by the nose or something.

In any case, I'm just wondering what your thought processes were, because I find your reads very interesting.

[GreyICE]

Also, snowjordan, mhi, what's your reads on the new guy?

He's pretty dead on at least that Zensei and Primate NEED to stop lurking right the hell now.

[GreyICE]

And why don't you feel the need not to answer it ? Aura of Sanctity ? If that's the case you have the same defense as snowjorden as in here And if you remember well, you would have notice that you did point that scummy behavior of snowjorden yourself.

Were you wondering or are you still wondering ? The only thing you can read from what I posted is that I am pro-active which is in every case mostly Pro-Town. I made a small synthesis, pick the most scummy and work to get him lynch. But you maybe want to take Snowjorden's place on the lynching seat ?

Hmm. I am the one running the town, yet you are telling me that you can assemble five votes to lynch me if I don't start behaving the way you want. Do you suppose that this should scare town? Is it because you are scared of it yourself?

[GreyICE]

Where did you read that I can assemble 5 votes ? Don't transform my writings. I mean what I said as : " Do you want to be the one that I targeted ? " Question that you don't answer once again. Counter-attacking with questions is fine but sometimes it doesn't work.

So I say we make a pact, you answer mine I answer yours. Deal ?

Yes to both. I very much would like to be the one you target now. You think I'm scum, so I'm very curious as to the reasonings.

As to the five votes, you said that I would be the one in the lynching seat. I am assuming that still requires five votes? You and four others?

[GreyICE]

I don't know what I could be possibly scared of, nobody except you as even the small interesst so far in lynching me (Though you will probably use this post to propose that idea )

And I don't think that telling my thoughts should scare anyone. People don't like to be manipulated so my assumption is more likely to back-fire since most people won't admit to themselves such a fact. But more precisely, I had the feeling that you control what happen through your writing skills and numerous well-placed posts. It doesn't mean you are scum, but I'd like to see you more in global scum-hunting than just playing like a freelancer. That said, I can't deny that you are doing a pro-town job with me right now.

Heh, I like you already. You noticed I've been guiding the discussion, and called me on it, and then correctly judged my motives after pushing me to see what I intended. You have different reads than me, but that doesn't make me right and you wrong. Threatening people can produce results, but be careful. Especially in a newbie town it can backfire, and there's quite a few scum players who've made it a habit to try and guide the town. They typically get lynched around day 3 when someone realizes what's going on, but by then they've left such a mess that their partner (or partners, if it's not a newbie) can carry the rest of the game.

You don't seem to have that intention, you seem to want to push an agenda that's protown.

Time for some cards on the table, I owe people a reads list:

Town

Voided Mafia

I have got to admit, I've been nosing around voided for a while, trying to suss him out. However, he's very, very linear and does not like to question what's beneath the surface. Voided, be careful with that. That's going to KILL you in LyLo situations, since LyLo is where everything becomes a total mess. To quote the wiki, frequently the way to find scum in 3 man LyLo is to vote for the person you think is most town. Things become much, much weirder. Question assumptions. Question everything. If you think someone is scum, stop, reread, ask yourself what's going on and what else is sliding. This is a game of total deception - wipe your slate blank. If you say "Olivia is def. town" stop, reread, and imagine Olivia is scum. If you see 3 people of varying degrees of scumminess posting a lot, and 1 person who you haven't seen much of, but seems vaguely town, stop, reread, ask where they are. Watch our bandwagons. We haven't had a competitor to the SnowJordan wagon. If it's a scum wagon, why? Are they that ineffective? Is he being bussed? Is he town and they're content to let him be mislynched? Watch frequent V/LAs. Tunnel only to the extent necessary.

Also, read more, write less. One effective paragraph is worth more than an entire wall. I've nearly gotten someone lynched before with a three sentence post (I'll link to the game when it's over).

Sarg

His posting is just too natural. Too, too natural. For a newbie, that's very hard to fake. Try faking jokes and banter when you have to fake scumhunting and fake town reads. This takes an accomplished poster. You have great Town instincts, and I am quite willing to bet that you're horrible obvscum when you pull the scum PM. If you've managed to fake me out, that's incredible.

Leaning Town

Otolia

Yeah, you got there in less posts than anyone except Sarg. And you're a good player. Please stick around, you will be a lot of fun. I appreciate how much effort you put into replacing in. This is not buddying, feel free to keep thinking of me as scum

If you're scum, you probably have the best scumgame out of anyone here. That doesn't make you scummy, FYI, it just means you get more scrutiny than, say, Sarg.

Zensei

I stand by what I said before. We called him on not liking his "scummy" playing style, and he explained what he was doing, and told us he didn't find any advantage to altering his playstyle to make us happy. That is such a goddamn town response. Good scum can fake it, bad scum can insult you and yell at you, or start apologizing. I'm gonna just drop him in the town bucket.

Meh

(yes, this is a category)

mb53

Townish, with ONE caveat - he's never parked his vote on SnowJordan, and ISO #12 reads like an ugly piece of distancing with no vote switch. At the time of that, he was voting for Sarg. In fact, he floats off Snow fairly quickly and goes after Mhi. This is still townish behavior due to Mhi's posts - unless Snow flips scum. Then he needs a SERIOUS second look.

Primate

I typically don't like to lynch the IC on day 1 because first, I think the play experience is worse for everyone, and second, the IC is under pressure that usually only scum is under - they have to alter their playstyle to guide newbies through the town. He has a lot of power to push the discussion in certain directions, which can wreck the play experience, and kill the town. Even if he's right, he gets NKed night 1/2, and then the town is left without any real leadership. Plus, townies turn on ICs that have mislead them - they're more experienced. They should know whether the person was scum! So they alter their playstyle and filter their opinions in a way that's going to make them scummy.

Fun fact: It's actually harder to find scum in newbie games. You're ALL slightly scummy to very, very scummy. (well, except Olivia). And this? This is

one of the best newbie towns I've ever seen.

You have no idea how bad it can get.

That being said, LUUUURRRRRKKKKKKK

Scummy

Mhi200

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2799983

Goddamn it that post just tells me he hasn't been reading the game. Could mean he's really bad at scumhunting. Could mean he already knows who the scum is, and doesn't need to read. His lack of jumping to defense of SnowJordan, or anything really related to Snow could be distancing. And it could be newbieness.

Scummy scum

Snowjordan

My initial impression of him trying to fit in stands. My impression of him being insanely defensive and threatening the town (if you lynch me, you lose!) stands. Since the wagon on him died down, he's been lurking - he hasn't made a real post since thursday. I really want to know why he comes off well to primate, because that just hurts me inside.

[GreyICE]

*I meant to say that Snowjordan hasn't made a real post since TUESDAY, not THURSDAY. Fail

[GreyICE]

Can we get a

Prod: SnowJordan

? Been close to 2.5 days since his last post.

Thanks.

Done. (Equinox)

He posted this amazing prod dodge on Wednesday:

Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:20 am
^ quick note before i go have a smoke ..you TOLD me to be defensive. Lol..

So it's more like 36 hours, which shouldn't be in prod range. That being said, textbook prod dodge post

[GreyICE]

Oh right, activity overview. Good catch.

[GreyICE]

LLDchan!

[GreyICE]

@Voided: No, LLD and Zensei got the same role PM. Doesn't randomize when they come in.

I can't believe that we'd really want a Zensei lynch today.

[GreyICE]

@LLD: Don't claim VT on day 1 plox

QQ
QQ
QQ

That being said, yeaaahhh... my vote hasn't moved

Just no fun if we lynch scum without even hearing from the lurkers

[GreyICE]

Sorry, I've been dragged in a different game.

Which is no excuse, I know.

Basically, Primate's last post was a long bunch of absolutely nothing. I hate to say it, but it really was. Read this paragraph for instance:

There were a couple of reasons I went after mhi. It was mostly because I'd just got a more positive read off of snowjordan and was looking for somewhere else to go, and on first read he seemed somewhat sideliny. That read didn't actually hold beyond a cursory look (he was second on snowjordan), but I noticed a couple of things that I wanted to ask him about, so I went with it anyway. His responses were pretty legitimate, actually. I questioned the use of the word suspicious because I thought he might be hiding in ambiguity there, but turns out he wasn't, and I can entirely see why someone would find voideds move away from snow peculiar, and I agree with him it didn't really seem spurred by anything. The other point I'm still a little dubious about, is that he said

Also, snowjorden seems to be painting a target on anyone who is currently or will in the future attack him.

This is mainly because both MB53 and Sarg were trying to attack snowjordan at the time, and he had a town read on Sarg and didn't mention his thoughts on MB53, so I thought it was a bit disingenous. If you take it the way it was explained by mhi, that whenever he said guys he was talking to everyone, It's a little better, I still don't think it's an accurate read of the situation.

It looks like content, it adds ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to our game.

Then this gem:

I'm not saying I think snowjordan is town, but I came out of that argument feeling a lot better about him and wanting to look somewhere else for a bit.

Uh... okay, Primate. So so far you have some semi-town reads on some people, Snow Jordan might kinda be scum, and some other people seem townish? No commentary on me, Otolia, or anyone else?

Ugh. I have a policy of not lynching the IC on day 1, but this is such a content-free post that seems to be saying something and does nothing that it's screaming experienced scum waiting for the town to turn on itself to me.

I'm going to say SnowJordan/Primate scumteam.

[GreyICE]

Not really, no. I believe I was against claiming scumteams before a good wagon had built up steam.

See, all this jibber-jabber we're doing in the thread? It has very little effect on scumteams frequently. You need some serious wagons to build up some serious pressure before you get anything out of them.

Primate's shift to Mhi was extremely subtle, yet very effective. It's exactly what I was looking for if SnowJordan was scum. It's insane to bus on day 1, so the partner is almost always going to run interference if there isn't a wagon showing up. If no interference showed up and no one tried to go "look at shiny person X" then the wagon is almost certainly a town wagon. His last post basically confirmed it to me. Look at how many strong, firm positions he takes.

SnowJordan's vote on VoidedMafia is such a blatant OMGUS that Primate can't sanely support it. mb53's vote on Otolia is straight up silly. Mhi200 is our most obvious mislynch for today. Look at primate. He says nothing about Mhi, the person HIS VOTE IS SITTING ON. It looks like he's FORGOTTEN ABOUT IT.

[GreyICE]

Spoiler:

So, by obvious mislynch, do you mean "he's the one that we really shouldn't lynch today" or "He's certainly not going to flip the way we might expect if he's lynched"? Or some other option that I don't know of.

Obvious mislynch - the person who is town, but who is most likely to just get lynched for non-responsiveness / general newbishness.

You learn to separate them from scum eventually, but it can be a royal pain in the ass.

[GreyICE]

Not, mind you, that I wouldn't like some MORE FUCKING CONTENT from Mhi200. Because that is starting to become a very sad ISO.

[GreyICE]

I'm willing to lynch snowjordan for pathetically scummy behavior and general lurkiness.

[GreyICE]

Well I'd kinda LOVE to hear from primate and Mhi.

Claim is totally optional, as it's always bullshit in this setup

[GreyICE]

I'm would possibly hammer, but will wait for his defense. I should probably have left my vote there in the first place, I only unvoted because the wagon was falling apart and I thought everyone else was more-or-less decided on not voting for snow. The two replacements changed that, of course

No like actual input not stuff that makes me think you're scum...

[GreyICE]

Eh, give us some general town and scum reads or something, say why you think SnowJordan is scummy, something.

Hell, want to have some fun? Read over past games of mine and other people's, and look who was town and scum, and how we identify them (or how we screw up and mislynch). Then decide whether or not we're doing A or B here.

As I said, you really feel like an obvious mislynch at this point, and it's because you're just kinda floating. I am pretty sure you're town, but it's irritating me

[GreyICE]

Unvote

Don't feel any overwhelming 'scum claim lynch me' out of that. Now I need to reread the thread, this does interesting things to my other reads.

[GreyICE]

Dee dee, I'll tell you one - if Snow is town, it makes Primate look a lot better. Still not sure exactly WHAT he's doing, but it's not necessarily anti-town now. Just bloody confusing.

[GreyICE]

EBWOP: Okay, I'm at L-2 now, apparently. Either way, working on a post starting ..now!!

You are still on L-1. LLD is having a bad trip. Sharpen you arguments well buddy.

Not real happy about this post either. It's blatant baiting. The pressure is there in the L-1, the baiting is rather unnecessary on someone who has a bit of a temper. Hmm. Do I have to rethink this town read I have?

[GreyICE]

Anyone else feel exactly like SnowJordan has hydrad when they read the ISO?

There's no fucking way in hell this is the same human being we had on day 1.

[GreyICE]

Anyone else feel exactly like SnowJordan has hydrad when they read the ISO?

There's no fucking way in hell this is the same human being we had on day 1.

It's a combination of a lot of things that cause my mood swings (that eccentric thing). Your last line makes me laugh uncontrollably though. My girlfriend, my mom, lots of people tell me that dealing with me on an hourly basis is like dealing with a new person. So, funny shit to see you say that too. Bah, I'm suppose to be in bed already! Damn MafiaScum.net player EGL for keeping me awake!!

No, that's really not it at all. Mood swings are detectable and can be dealt with.

You didn't even include a single ".." ellipse. And the person who wrote "But yeah ..I'm out. Cause, I really am tired of digging a bigger whole" is the same person who hyphenates the word "re-vote?" That post was edited from here to the moon before we ever saw it, if that's the case.

[GreyICE]

And you just put in one to make me happy, in the same post with a hyphen. Yep, there's no such thing as physical evidence on day 1. No there is not. I will say if what you're above is what you're capable of, you have the potential to be a damn good player. And if you'd written "well, I'd edited the hell out of it because I realized my earlier posts weren't saying what I wanted to say, and I needed to be sure I was making sense so the town didn't mislynch" I might even buy it.

But there's just no town motive to lie to me, and that is that.

Anyone: I can offer a whole long textual explanation of how people do not have coherent, flowing paragraphs with snappy rhetoric and flowing lines tossed off the cuff at you when they write in a fashion more typical of my ADD-style, and get there without significant editing (which any one of my posts that makes the least lick of sense to you and exceeds three paragraphs has). I can explain how anyone who typos 'whole' for 'hole' and 'judgement' for 'judgment' doesn't do what SnowJordan did above without editing.

Vote:SnowJordan

Damn I wish I'd played with this SnowJordan from day 1. I think you'd be a fuck ton more interesting and more fun. But I can't let you live with this in front of me.

[GreyICE]

Well there's the raw amount of bullshit we're asked to believe too. Like that an experienced mafia theorist didn't count how many people were in the game.

But yeah, I don't see any townie motivation here at all anymore.

[GreyICE]

Equinox, if there is some sort of nomination for best mod scene, you're getting it.

Good luck town. I did what I could to help. Now it's up you newbies. ^_^

LLD-chan

You will be missed.

[GreyICE]

Anyway Primate, looking forward to that awesome case on why Snow Jordan isn't scum.

With a subchapter on who we lynch that's not you because unless you get cop confirmed, life in LyLo is just not an option here

[GreyICE]

I'm waiting for Prmate. MB53 didn't think he was scum. Plenty of town have that happen, I can link you to townie after townie defending scum.

Primate seemed to want to gloss over the entire thing and move us on. Not defense, obfuscation.

From a less experienced player, that last bit yesterday would be a town tell, but from someone who is experienced, that's just an excellent way to look town - and SnowJordan had done so very, very many scummy things at that point (including lying to me. Lying. There are town reasons to lie, once in a blue moon, but they're fucking rare).

[GreyICE]

MB53 is another solid lynch, although I need to do a reread.

Also of LLD, as I'm confused as to the choice of NK targets.

[GreyICE]

K. I want Snowjorden lynched today.

If he flips scum, Oto is scum buddy.

And... I do listen to the dead, FYI.

[GreyICE]

K. I want Snowjorden lynched today.
If he flips scum, Oto is scum buddy.

And... I do listen to the dead, FYI.

Come on, buddy That was a huge misunderstanding. Re-read again our argument and you will see that she accused me of changing my vote, which I didn't do.

Relax, I've played with LLD before. She's got great instincts, and uses logic that could shut down the supercomputers Kirk and Spock have always dealt with. If you sheep the instincts and ignore the logic, she's wonderful.

That looks like her head, not her gut.

Regardless, we need more Primate. No lynching anyone until Primate makes some posts, mmmkay?

[GreyICE]

Also, the post you quoted I was trying to move the discussion away from the two of them arguing, yeah. I wanted to drop the argument because both players involved seemed a bit fragile and I thought they were both town. I could have posted a defense of snowjordan, but I really didn't think there was much in there that had a defence other than he is a newb and thought that snowjordan was coming out of it badly enough that I wanted to end it for a bit before coming back to snowjordan as a lynch target. I wasn't actively trying to obsfucate what I was doing, but then again I didn't really put that much thought into it. You're right to pick up on it with the knowledge that snowjordan is scum though.

SHIT

. I hope unto god you're scum, because you're now dead, and if you're town, you just provided a horrible example.

We have to lynch you Primate. No two options. The reason is this - I've noticed this about single scum left before, and I'll see it again. Take MPM. Notice how he forgot to popcorn claim to the next claimant? The entire game was, to him, down to whether or not people believed that claim. There was no motive for moving to the next scummiest person, because if people believed him, he could win, if they didn't, he was dead (the situation, btw, was horrifically bleak for him - he was claimed to have targeted the night kill, he was a 'town read' from the second to last scum, and he had eight town power roles against him).

You've become the center of the game in your own mind. See, town? Even if they are lynched today, they can still win. There's three mislynches to a loss in this game, and that would use ONE of the three. Their best scumreads and best town reads would still be valuable to the town, even if they 100% knew they would be lynched.

But for scum, they know, KNOW that today if they are lynched the game is over. There's no future. There's no need for scumreads/townreads. The entire post became a plea not to lynch you, cleverly disguised. It reads very, very town. But there's no town motive at all. And now you have to die, because you can't live until LyLo like this.

Vote:Primate

If you're town, you can still give us the town/scum reads before you go. But defending scum is nowhere near as scummy as THINKING LIKE SCUM. And I can't see my way to another lynch today.

[GreyICE]

Primate, yes. I really do. I've toned it down somewhat (there's a reason LLD was laughing about the laid-back) so as to give newbies input, not scare people off, and generally be a 'good SE.' I think I've done a decent job, though I still owe y'all a post on ISOs and stuff. BTW, how'd my aggression work out in the other game?

Magua

,

Mafia Roleblocker

, killed Night 3.

GreyICE

,

Town Vigilante

, killed Night 3.

I ain't perfect. You'll find plenty of examples of me focusing and lynching town. I'm not going to 7-for-7 this town, or tell em that I'm some goddamn perfect paragon of scumhunting who can never be beaten. I won't list every scum lynch I've been on, you don't have to list every town lynch I've been on. But I will say that I'm right as often as I'm wrong, and I will tell you this: when I have a read, I'm not going to be shy about it. I will say what I want to say, and I will say it in my most damn convincing manner ever. I will not dance about the subject then gloat later "oh well I was right all along but no one listened to me."

I'll champion my cause to the end, and if it doesn't work out, well then I'll apologize and reread, and change what needs to be changed in my reasoning and move on. If it does work out, I'm not going to sit around resting on my laurels - I'll reread, change my reads as needed, and move on to the next target. I'll listen to other players, yes. I'll hear what they have to say. I feel like I gave you yours. You were one I needed to work out today, and I'm now stuck on you.

Even you understand what I'm saying, whether you like it or not - you said that your post read more like an endgame post. But it's only endgame for one team today, if they're lynched. I tend to agree on your secondary reads, and I think we have a very good shot if you're town and we lynch you today. And to be honest, I don't see a better lynch for today at all.

The question when you're town is ALWAYS 'who is the best person to lynch today?' The question when you're scum is always 'how do me and my buddies survive till the endgame the best today?' Power roles do throw a wrench into this, sometimes, but I find that it's easier to play em as just kind of mediocre lurky town rather than scummy. I'd be surprised if you do much different. Your post was pure survival motive, and frankly you're a good player. I don't feel safe giving you a second chance.

[GreyICE]

Damn it, Primate, that's exactly my reads with the addition that I just don't like the WIFOM of you being alive. I really don't. Oto, Sarg, Voided, these are all town to me. Mhi reads town despite the problems.

I am so feeling that it's either one of you or MB53, that "unvote:revote" was scummy as shit, since if he truly thinks it's Oto there's NO OTHER SCUM TO LYNCH. So what's a vote flop without admitting he thinks Oto is town doing? I dislike how he starts out commenting on how bad SJ's response was, but I find direct defenses of things people think are mislynches much less scummy than trying to attention shift. Unfortunately BOTH of you did that, so that's almost null.

You know what? At the end of the day, I trust this town to lynch you before LyLo, and that vote hop from mb53 was SO BAD. Not saying "oh, I changed my mind, I think Oto is town" but "oh, lemme go lynch some other scum." But THERE IS NO OTHER SCUM. There's just one left, so if you're switching your vote, you have to be saying "I don't think my last read was town." Not "I can't garner support to lynch the LAST SCUM LEFT." That's only valid when you think you're moving inbetween two different scum wagons, which isn't even possible here!

Unvote

Vote: mb53

Do not let Primate survive until endgame without a cop clear or some other method to ensure he's town. FYI, any cop claim targeting him clears him as town, since there's only a scum motive to lie about being a cop - it's either the cop claim whose scum, or they're both town.

Mass Claim Tomorrow.

Popcorn style (one person goes first, choses next person, etc.). I nominate Primate as #1. You have to consider whether you have any power roles at all - any configuration of F11 is possible, but if you do it right you can confirm town out of the popcorn. Don't trust any power claim at all, but don't auto-lynch them. With one scum left, if you can get any confirmed town, tomorrow becomes a nightmare for the scum.

And don't let primate live through 3 man lylo without cop confirm. Serious.

P.S. Don't trust claimed power roles! Don't distrust em either, but am serious.

[GreyICE]

I'm sorry, did you just claim scum and scream lynch me?

Breadcrumbs right before your partner is going down and on day 2 don't impress. I lynch power role claims in F11 all the time because they're ALL UNPROVABLE.

[GreyICE]

STOP IT GET BACK ON TOPIC NO BELIEVING BS PR CLAIMS #%#!@%!@%@!

I KNEW ONE OF YOU WAS GOING TO CLAIM POWER ROLE I GODDAMN KNEW IT. NO WAY.

[GreyICE]

Nah they're worth of a bit in F11 before any of the setup is known. Scum don't know what it is bar the bit of information they have in the RB. You reckon scums gonna hit up the 50/50 chance of immediately losing the game by counterclaim?

AT L-1 WHEN HE'S THE ROLEBLOCKER? YES!

I mean honestly, what's his odds of victory if he's the roleblocker and we have a cop and doctor? Like 5%? Might as well take the coin flip when you're there.

[GreyICE]

mb53, let this be a lesson to you if you're town: Don't breadcrumb when scum is going down and then at the start of day 2. Do it in the third post of day 1 or something.

If you'd just said "Well, I figured that protecting SnowJordan was win/win because I had a town read on him, and if I was wrong then there's no way I'd be the night kill target" at least I could have bought the logic. But this breadcrumb nonsense?

Noooooooooooooooo.

[GreyICE]

How scummy can you get? Like, um "Well, looks like Snowjordan is going to lynch, time for me to breadcrumb my awesome PR, instead of before I did this nice little defense of him that's going to make everyone take a hard look at me if he flips scum."

Like... sorry. No.

I figure we have Primate dead to rights tomorrow if you flip town because there's just no way anyone whose NOT scum would even consider that defense for 0.5 seconds.

[GreyICE]

Also it's fine if town picks up the breadcrumb through hyper analysis. What are they going to do? Scream "I KNOW WHO THE DOCTOR IS?!?" If scum wanna kill themselves analyzing 300 or so posts looking for some bad breadcrumb, they can knock themselves out.

But god, mb53, if you're the doctor... that... just no words. I'd have an easier time believing your claim without the breadcrumb, to be frank. Especially since it looked like Primate was prepping himself for an amazing PR claim TOO.

[GreyICE]

Wait, did you just say you want him hammered but you don't wanna hammer?

WTF?

[GreyICE]

I am SO dumb. I almost hammered Mb53. I thought the wagon was on Primate but NO. Anyhow, can someone hammer this kikooLoL-player. This kind of human shouldn't be allowed to walk on earth.

Yeah. MB53, that's maybe one of the first things you said I agree with.

Unvote

Now getting incredibly worried about this horrible post by Otolia. Oto, why do you want someone to hammer a claimed doctor when your vote is just sitting around?

If you think he's scum, hammer scum. If you think he's town, say he's town. If you want some more discussion, say "I don't like the claim, but I want more discussion."

This post was very not good.

[GreyICE]

Wait a second. Otolia is on the wagon.

Why did he say that he was afraid he almost hammered?

And this is why you don't read games after ISOing in lovers multiball, folks. Mist ISOs decrease your IQ by about 500 points.

I now have several questions after MB53's post and a fast reread.

First is: MB53, you do realize we dropped the hammer on SnowJordan yesterday after almost EXACTLY that same post, right? Why would you make it as town.

[GreyICE]

PEDIT
Oh hey, MB53 did exactly what I needed him to do. Jumped to a third wagon in one day.

Vote: mb53

Fuck this shit, three wagons in one day when we have one scum left? MB53, if you're town, and we have one scum left, SCUMHUNT. Don't fucking wagon jump.

Not that you're going to flip town, but whatever.

[GreyICE]

Now we just need Primate or Mhi to hammer.

Interesting to see which one does, if MB53 SOMEHOW flips town.

[GreyICE]

BTW, not at all game related, but pretty awesome that Voided has figured out that ISOs don't necessarily tell you that much and that they're better as tools than as be all and end alls. A lot of people get stuck on them for game after game, especially players who like things to line up.

[GreyICE]

mb53, I just don't even care at this point. There's one scum. You've provided nothing resembling plausible reasons that it's Otolia, I come along and think it's Primate and you're like "well that seems right" and hop to him, then back to Oto.

Primate voting for sarg while arguing for your lynch is just "please god don't lynch the doctor claim then lynch me tomorrow." I'd happily lynch Primate today too, but MB53, you literally claim that you breadcrumbed as "oh my god what if he is scum I'm in deep shit." That's scum logic to the core. You haven't made a fucking case on Otolia that carries an ounce of water. You sheeped my vote while claiming that you still think Oto is scum and then jumped back despite the reason for my unvote was PATENTLY HORRIBLE. And then you make a near duplicate of a post that scum made at the end of last day and got hammered for the "please don't leave me hanging here at L-1 while the deadline ticks closer guys" post.

There's literally too many town reads for the scum to kill all of at this point. You should flip scum, if you don't we'll still bloody well win.

[GreyICE]

And you STILL could make some sort of case on Oto to try and guide us towards why you think he's scum so bad your vote keeps beaming back to him, but now you think opinion is shifting back towards Primate so you give us that.

Well, whatever. I'll have some long commentary for you in the post game if you're town, but I honestly think this is the last-ditch shot by scum to get us to lynch someone else today.

[GreyICE]

I'll have a scum game for you when this day is over, my first scum game on this site is in LyLo (I'm quite dead).

You'll find I'm good manipulating scum who is tense as hell because he hates playing scum and spectacularly self-destructed. I refuse to self meta and tell you how I'm not doing the same things in this game because I do play every game differently. But I'm not scum here.

MB53... don't get discouraged. I've been lynched twice so far as town (on day 1 both times, ironically). It sucks, but it happens. No, I'm not moving my vote, I've seen too many different angles on 'please abort this crippling lynch' to move my vote, but I'll sympathize. (1049 I did play like crap, I was getting reads but I was pissing people off too much and that's not good, the other one... I still dunno what happened, it's ongoing but I was at three votes with a terribad "case," I puke my brains out for 24 hours, and when I come back I was lynched).

[GreyICE]

Oto - game ended.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=16125

PEDIT: Glad you're not leaving, I do like you. I just can't talk myself out of lynching you today just because I personally like you. It's so much easier to lynch people you hate

I'm always kinda glad when someone who truly annoys me pulls scum. It's so... fitting.

[GreyICE]

I wasn't arguing for his lynch though. I was arguing against his lynch. I changed my mind on that yesterday shortly after his claim.

I'm going to change it back after having a day to think about it. I did think his claim was plausible, but it's also completely believable that under pressure like this he would make a claim like that.

I also wouldn't be happy him getting to endgame based on what I think is solely that claim and I suppose that's the test as to whether you actually believe something.

Going to keep thinking about it but I'm very likely going to hammer before I go to sleep which'll be about an hour.

Yay, if he flips town, a blind monkey would lynch you for this post so I don't even have to worry about being the victim of the night kill.

[GreyICE]

Nah, it's not that. It's very pro-town to change your mind in response to input.

It was the "I'm

going

to change it back."

Only scum PLAN to change their reads before they change em. I dunno if it's a legit slip or just the worst phrasing I've seen in ages, but it's a death knell for tomorrow.

That being said, MB53 hasn't even coughed out the ol' chesnut "well I think you'll still win if you lynch me" which I'd actually tend to believe, he just feels... defeated.

[GreyICE]

I'll explain it for tomorrow, since I have no idea if I die or not.

Basically, assume for a second Primate is scum. The motives today are, in no particular order:

1) Survive (no other motive can take precedence, he loses if lynched)
2) Lynch someone who isn't mb53 (since mb53, if town, is an obvious mislynch)
3) Generate scumreads from town on people who aren't him
4) Work up town credit.

Four is the toughest - it's much easier to make someone scummier than you than make yourself town when you're this deep in the pit. So 1 through 3. One was that apology to the town. Two was that vote for sarg and the 'I just have a bad feeling about him.' Three was hopefully a total dud - I'm not seeing the sort of mess that normally precludes a total LyLo failure. Four, he's done pretty good with up till that last post.

The problem is his "I'm going to change that back..." in that post, because it betrays exactly the level of planning that I knew Primate-scum would have to be making. Winning here would be mind-numbingly difficult for him, every post is living on egg shells. Every post has to be near-perfect. IC scum is always tough - people tend to lynch the IC for bad reasons if they're still alive on day 3, just because "why isn't the game over and shit! And you're better, you must be unreadable because they're better" (and because ICs tend to give off scum tells like mad just because they are planning their posts the way scum do) So he's under pressure, I want to see the slip.

The problem (and the reason he's #2, way behind mb53)

- LLD is much more of a mb53 shot than Primate. She was very involved in the back and forth at the end of the day, I was sick as a dog for most of that week and not really caring since I figured my vote was on scum. LLD is very much more likely to generate the chaos Primate would need to win this game (love you LLD-chan, but it's true!). She's a bad Primate shot.
- MB53 has just done so many different things badly here
- He just feels defeated in his last posts. It's not a town defeat if we mislynch today.

If this is still going on on day 4... uh... I've screwed up really badly, first. Second, at that point, you guys are going to have to trust your own reads and your heads because I've screwed up really badly. If there's a cop he needs to claim tomorrow and tell the town if Primate is scum/town. Doesn't mean that the cop is trustworthy, but it'll tell you if Primate is scum/town. And now there will be no cop claims in LyLo (then again, we're lynching the doctor today if the game is going on on day 4, so... heh).

[GreyICE]

I mean if you forced me to choose at gunpoint for #3, it would be either Otolia or mhi200, probably mhi, but that is not a note for anyone to do more than keep your eyes open.

Sarg and Voided still read obvtown to me.

[GreyICE]

*cough*

As for LyLo, quick survival guide for the two town who are left:

If EITHER of you throws down your vote quickly, and it hits town, the town loses. Take your time, read people, THINK ABOUT THE MOTIVES behind their actions.

If you're alive at LyLo it's because there's a reason you're alive at LyLo. Is it because the scum thinks you'll toss the vote on the other townie? Are you the mislynch? Do they think they can persuade you? You're there for a reason, oh yes you are. There's three shots to make sure that you were the two people alive - not anyone else. Especially after tonight, both shots went into someone they wanted dead.

It's very possible and likely to win at LyLo. Scum are still scummy. Town are still town. Just don't tunnel - everything is open to question.

[GreyICE]

And that's that, I've said everything I want to before this hammer.

[GreyICE]

Because that's how I think, and how I post. I'm a pain in the ass that way.

[GreyICE]

Well this solves everything, don't it.

Vote:Sarge338[/b[

Figured it was him if I was alive, you or Otolia if I was dead, but the cop results make this lulzy.

[GreyICE]

Vote:Sarg338

[GreyICE]

Also the flavor rocks.

[GreyICE]

Literally does not matter, Otolia.

1 scum left. We have 2 lynches.

1) Primate is a cop. He has a guilty. Sarg is scum
2) Primate is scum. He has no guilty. Sarg MUST be town (because 1 scum)

Sarg flips town, we lynch primate.

There's no defense against a sane cop. I mean we could lynch Primate and if he flips cop vote sarg, it just doesn't matter here.

2 lynches. 1 of the 2 must be scum. Profit.

[GreyICE]

BTW: Primate claim = good claiming.

Think there's a Vi article on that that should just be mandatory reading.

[GreyICE]

Tempted! But I'm still alive, which clears you from the perspective that I refused to give a single signal that I was ever leaving the tunnel on D2.

I had this okay plan after the LLD shot because that pointed to one of mb53/mhi200/Sarg/Otolia. We lynch mb53, I tunnel you like all hell, and throw a secondary finger at Otolia. That meant Otolia would certainly kill me, and you'd almost definitely kill me and try to play it off.

It was gonna be nifty because I figured that left mhi and Sarg as the only ones who wouldn't shoot me :/ And believe it or not I was expecting to wake up today.

And then you went a copped him and this sounds really unbelievable. BAH!

(Not that I mind the excellent call with that copping)

[GreyICE]

I'd say I was 90% on you being town, I've just been 90% on you being town all along.

But if it wasn't Primate, and wasn't mb53 then ONE of my reads was off. Once I'm at that point, then I can't say that I'm too inclined to stick by my reads

[GreyICE]

Sarg, you did a great job. I seriously think without the cop claim it would have come right down to 3 man LyLo and you had a good shot, even without your partner.

[GreyICE]

This is seriously one of the best newbie games I've seen.

[GreyICE]

You weren't bad, and there have been worse claims.

Vi wrote this article for a reason: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16764

It's worth reading for everyone.

[GreyICE]

If it's any indication, I wouldn't have killed GreyICE either, in his situation.

Sure, but the hardest thing I've seen about your scumgame is that you have this amazing ability to evade any sort of logical pattern that anyone would anticipate

Mina was still raw genius.

[GreyICE]

I KNOW.

But most people take shots that at help them. Some people take shots that hurt them for WIFOM. Yours just are the only shot that could break people. It was genius.

[GreyICE]

lol, I know! Most people would have shot the confirmable town and gone down to 3:1 MyLo for a better shot at mislynch and/or more scum shots. You screwed with everyone's heads sooooo well.