Newbie 1066 (Game Over!)

[Vordark]

Sweet, game started.

Vote: Vordark

For being the last one to confirm.

Moving IRL. Not V/LA, but will be much more active in another week or two.

Before we get I start playing the game I have 2 questions for everybody.
1) How much experience do you have playing games on this site here?
2) Do you have experience playing this game outside of this site?
Experience tends to be useful to know for future reads.

1. Very first game on this site.
2. I was exposed to these types of games a little more than a week ago over on other site. So, next to no experience, although I've been reading the WIki here when time permits.

Hmm bvoigt seems pretty keen to jump on the first available bandwagon. Not gonna vote yet, but suspiciously scummy behaviour.

Not putting a vote on bvoigt in the same breath as saying he has shown "suspiciously scummy behavior" seems strange to me. With no votes on him and it being so early in the day there is little chance of an actual lynch, but it

would

look less like you are trying to place suspicion while blending in. I have next to no experience as well, but this gives me bad vibes.

ok, so on the limited amount of evidence so far, my feeling is that Thian and bvoigt are scum. they seem to be the only players working in tandem/together. Of course, that might be completely wrong But they seem to be very eager to lynch someone as quickly as possible, whereas everyone else so far seems a bit more cautious, becuase they don't want to lynch a townie. bvoight and thian don't seem to be so worried about that...

This is a problem for me. You assert that bvoigt's random vote and Thian's vote in response to the statement I highlighted above are evidence of "players working in tandem/together", then hedge with "Of course, that might be completely wrong". You are basing this on their early voting, when RVS has already been explained. It has also been pointed out that at this early stage a couple of votes is harmless. And given you still haven't voted, but continue to announce suspicions is really starting to reek of a blending strategy. At the very least, this seems like dangerous reasoning coupled with overly-cautious behavior which isn't very helpful.

Vote: mozamis

[Vordark]

i guess we have different approaches. i thought being cautious at this stage might prevent us from lynching a townie by mistake. after all, i haven't got much to go on. so i just said what i was thinking, which was that voight jumping on the first bandwagon seemed scummy. but that didnt seem enough to vote for him. i didnt want to look like i was voting out of retaliation, as i explained above.
so i'm gonna remain cautious until we have a clear idea of who the scum is.
surely announcing suspicions is better than just flinging votes around?

Right now I'm getting a slight town-read off of bvoight. He is directly questioning statements that seem suspicious, but he is also using his vote. He pressed RG to answer his question and voted him to highlight it (posts 18 and 25). He has also been rather diligent in asking people to clarify their reasoning and calling attention to behavior he finds strange (posts 29 and 34). With little to go on so early, bvoigt's behavior at this point looks more town than scum to me.

Whereas you have asked few questions, announced several suspicions with reasoning I find difficult to agree with and have not voted. I also want to highlight:

i didnt want to look like i was voting out of retaliation, as i explained above.

I think you are worrying too much about how you appear to others.

On Scumhunting
1. "Generally, scum worry more than civilians about what people think about their actions." - wolframnhart

Finally...

surely announcing suspicions is better than just flinging votes around?

Not to my way of thinking. To my eyes, it looks like very passive, overly-cautious play designed to cast suspicions without any real commitment. It also looks like you are trying to blend in, which your statement above confirms. This behavior might just be because you're new, but it is the most suspicious I've seen in the thread at this point.

I'd like to hear other people's reads on mozamis.

[Vordark]

shall we all just whack votes on the lurkers, ie trendall, maxous and vordark? feel free to put your votes back on me when they show up
But would be nice to speed things up beyond the pace of an asthmatic snail

Still moving IRL. There is more useless crap at my old apartment than is dreamt of in your philosophy.

@Crazy: Has Trendall been prodded, or did his V/LA until Monday message bump that?

[Vordark]

I'm experiencing forum failure. At least three posts have materialized scattered on page four, including two from Trendall. Awesome.

[Vordark]

39 - Vordark jumps on Mozamis for not voting too. I think it's fairly obvious that Mozamis's behaviour thus far is just down to inexperience rather than some clever tactic, so the fact that people are pressuring him for it seems very shady to me.

Mozamis looks like town to me, but I'm not sure about that, especially as I have no experience with playing against inexperienced mafia-sided players.

So which is it? Is it obvious that Mozamis's behavior is "inexperience" and not scummy, or are you not sure because you have no experience with inexperienced mafia-sided players?

45 - Lol, Vordark gets a 'slight-town read' off of bvoight. Wants to encourage the rest of the town that bvoight is town, but doesn't want to commit to it too much. Again, uses the ridiculous, absurd argument of 'he 'used his vote' so he's town'. Did I miss a memo or something? Vordark also uses a quote from some random guy I've never heard of that could have come from anywhere to give his argument against Mozamis credence. That's something that I've never liked either. 'My argument is correct because some guy on the Wiki said so'

Your grandiose phrasing aside, as well as your failure to note and comment on the other reasons I expressed for my read of bvoight, this is an adequate description of my post.

Mozamis is overly cautious and worrying too much about what others are thinking of him. This looks scummy to me. If the more experienced scum hunters disagree, I am interested in understanding why.

[Vordark]

Unvote: Mozamis
Vote: TheWayItEnds

@ NS
6. I don't feel like there is a cut and dried answer to this one. Scum can go lurking to avoid suspicion, but some people have a passive playstyle. Depends on how much they lurk and why i suppose.

Apart from your vote near the top of page one TWIE, I cannot find a single post of yours that is actually contributing to the discussion. This looks like lurking but trying to not

look

like you're lurking.

[Vordark]

Frrrkrrkr...

Unvote: Mozamis
Vote: TheWayItEnds

[Vordark]

If you have any questions about how we play here, feel free to ask me. My actions are governed by this article in our Wiki. If you haven't already, you might consider browsing our Wiki; especially the articles Newbie Guide and Commonly Used Abbreviations.

Ask you here or in a PM?

1) Are you having fun yet?
2) Chocolate or vanilla?
3) How many Mafia games have you played (here or elsewhere)?
4) Lynch all Liars?
5) Math or Sports?
6) Lynch all Lurkers?
7) What do

you

think of the RVS?

1. Absolutely!

2. Coffee.

3. This is my first here. I was exposed two weeks ago when someone started a Lovecraft-themed game on another site, which is ongoing.

4. Leaning toward yes. It's hard enough sorting things out without additional deception.

5. Both. As long as the sport is fly fishing.

6. Yes, for reasonable definitions of "lurking". I worry more about people who write many content-free posts than I do about people who post every other day but provide quality.

7. I think RVS is harmless in the net, but I like seeing votes that are backed with

some

reasoning as early as possible, even if that reasoning amounts to only +0.5% suspicion over everyone else. Reading the games here, real discussion doesn't seem to start until there are a few votes on someone and without real discussion there is nothing

but

RVS.

[Vordark]

@Crazy - Thank you for clarifying.

[Vordark]

@Nobody Special:

How much weight is reasonable (or simply typical) to give to experience or inexperience in determining whether or not behavior is suspicious and worthy of scrutiny? Thus far, I have been giving it near zero weight, but I am beginning to think this may be an error.

I'd like to hear other people's reads on mozamis.

While he does look scummy, my gut is telling me newbie town.

I think it's fairly obvious that Mozamis's behavior thus far is just down to inexperience rather than some clever tactic, so the fact that people are pressuring him for it seems very shady to me.

I was writing those notes as I was reading along, and then did a summary at the end. He seemed obvtown to me at the start, but then Thian brought up the thing about inexperienced mafia playing the noob card, and it occurred to me that I've never actually played a noob-maf before, which made me uncertain. That's where that contradiction came from, and to answer your question, I am now not sure, leaning towards him being town.

That being said, I reread the thread today, and still feel like while moz appears scummy, he also (even without the claims) looks like a newbie confused about how things on the site work (voting and such). No real read here, leaning town.

bvoight, Trendall and TWIE have all noted that Moz's inexperience is playing a factor in their reads, with bvoight and TWIE both going as far as saying he looks scummy but they are actually leaning town. Given the specific behavior I mentioned previously, would bvoight, Trendall and TWIE's weighting be reasonable or at least typical?

Mozamis:
observations, okay we get it, you're a noob. Scum hide in "Noob" cards all the time, why are you bringing up your noob factor this much. Also reason for your want to pair myself up with bvoigt because we are working in tandem? You are purposely trying to misdirect suspicion off of you onto 2 others right now as a divide and confuse tactic. I don't like it.

If it is reasonable to discount Mozamis's behavior thus far on account of inexperience, Thian's continued reaction as a more experienced player bears further scrutiny and TWIE's comment here makes more sense:

I dont know what to think of Thian at all on page one he shows up and immediately starts painting moz and RG as scummy, which at the time seemed like a possibility, but now they just look like easy lynch bait, but he continues to tunnel mozamis. Possibly scummy.

Factoring newbness into the equation has struck me as a problem verging on "wine in front of me". A newb is given latitude because they are new, but a new Mafia player may use that to divert suspicion but if they

know

that people are looking for that they'll etc. Ignoring inexperience seemed to be the most prudent course of action, but given the statements above I am questioning this position.

[Vordark]

so you're suspicious of Thian?

If it is reasonable to discount Mozamis's behavior thus far on account of inexperience, Thian's continued reaction as a more experienced player bears further scrutiny and TWIE's comment here makes more sense:

I dont know what to think of Thian at all on page one he shows up and immediately starts painting moz and RG as scummy, which at the time seemed like a possibility, but now they just look like easy lynch bait, but he continues to tunnel mozamis. Possibly scummy.

Factoring newbness into the equation has struck me as a problem verging on "wine in front of me". A newb is given latitude because they are new, but a new Mafia player may use that to divert suspicion but if they

know

that people are looking for that they'll etc. Ignoring inexperience seemed to be the most prudent course of action, but given the statements above I am questioning this position.

I am suspicious of you pending a reply from our IC regarding my question. I think you have been given too much leeway here, but if this is a typical reaction to a newb then I'm going to consider the atypical reaction of Thian suspicious.

[Vordark]

It's better to start off with a night phase so that you don't have to worry about randomly killing an innocent just to get through the phase quicker.

Also, on replacing me, I will be active and try to help the Village, it is just that it's better than lynching the doc, right? You don't want to end the first day phase to find that you've killed off one of the most important assets to the Village. Also, I signed up so that I can improve my clue-solving skills (there are clues, right?).

There...aren't...clues?

*Insert nooooo! compilation*

These are RG's last two posts. There hasn't been a new one from him since Monday night. All nine of his posts considered he has contributed nothing. He has not backed up his claim of "I will be active and try to help the Village". At minimum he's useless to the town right now. We need active players that are paying attention. Since he's not being replaced...

Unvote: TheWayItEnds
Vote: RaudhrGarm

[Vordark]

@Nobody: Thanks for the imagery.

@everyone:

My thoughts on the game so far...

RaudhrGarm - Scum or useless as I wrote above.

TheWayItEnds - Neutral. His last post brought him above my personal lurker threshold and contributed something to the discussion.

mozamis - Suspicious. I'm continuing to ponder his behavior. I don't like how hard he seems to be trying, but he's not as overly cautious as he was earlier.

Thian - Suspicious. The line about Moz trying to end the day early seemed way too forced for my liking.

bvoigt - Neutral. I was leaning town earlier, but the interchange highlighted in post 95 seems odd. Specifically, his reason for voting TWIE strikes me as really weak.

Trendall - Neutral. Post 102 (which I liked) contained some fairly aggressive language, but he seemed to mellow out after my reply. He also jumped on TWIE right after I voted. This bothers me for some reason, but not enough to give me a read.

Maxous - Neutral. I haven't quite seen enough of him to get any ideas.

Nobody Special - Suspicious. Six posts and the only information from him is that he feels neutral toward Moz (answer in response to my IC question).

Nobody Special has'nt been giving his opinion on players(I know that is hypocritical here but still..). I would like to hear NS' thoughts on players rather than "it is too early to call scumteams" - nobody expects a concrete suspicion at this stage.

I agree.

ps anyone else feel that Nobody special is just blending in a bit?

The pot has a point, kettle.

[Vordark]

vordark, why dont you like "how hard i seem to be trying". Talk about "you are damned if you do, damned if you don't". I am posting a lot cos i enjoy it, and i want town to win.
Sorry if thats suspicious.

To clarify, I believe you are "trying too hard" in the sense that it reminds me of the guy that really wants to hang out with the cool kids and does the things the cool kids do but is so obviously trying to be cool that he's far from it. Everyone is skateboarding, so he buys a board at Walmart for twenty bucks. Everyone is listening to heavy metal, so he buys a Winger album.

You are either trying desperately to fit in because you are new, or because you are trying to divert suspicion. Until I'm sure which, I'm reading very carefully. Regardless, I think RaudhrGarm is more harmful than you at this time and would like to see your thoughts on him.

And in the words of the prophet Leroy Jethro Gibbs, "Don't apologize. It's a sign of weakness."

[Vordark]

@Crazy

: Quickly looking I see that RG still has not posted and has not even logged onto the site since Monday night (about an hour or so after his last post here). Has he been prodded yet?

[Vordark]

I'm calling him lynch bait, because at the start of the game he looked like the sort of poster who can be jumped on and pressured by scum and look bad, making for an easy mislynch.
That's what it looks like to me.

I'm not buying the easy lynch bait argument here. At least three other people have pointed out Moz's early behavior as scummy (not including myself), but have given him a discount specifically because he's new. If he had even one other game under his belt, I think he'd be looking at a L-3 by now. The extreme defensiveness and repeated one-line content-free posts wouldn't do much of anything to allay those suspicions either, but are being written off in much the way NS described in his post. After last night I'm reading Moz as an over-exuberant probable townie, but writing anyone off as lynch bait seems dangerous to me. Especially when their behavior has appeared suspicious to so many.

That said, I want to hear from Thian exactly why he is beating this drum so hard. Trying to make a case is one thing, but the reasoning he's offering is getting very hard to accept.

[Vordark]

no ones put forward a decent argument yet as to why my behaviour is scummy.
The argument seems to consist of:
1) Mozamis didnt vote when he was supicious of someone.
2) he then claimed newness as his defence.
3)therefore he is scum.

As syllogisms go, its pretty weak.

You did not vote until after you had announced several random suspicions. You were very quick to link people together with the flimsiest of reasons. Many of your early posts consisted of little more than "So and so looks scummy, but I could be wrong. *blush* I'm so noob", in other words announcing a suspicion, hedging it, etc. You are way more defensive than any ordinary townie I've seen in the archives and the sheer volume of utterly useless posts (cheering, telling us your favorite song, etc.) is filling the thread with gibberish and is now borderline distracting. For the latter, here's a sampling:

and vordark: you fool, this is bat country!

lol I've read to many Poirots -suspect everyone so at the end you can say "See? Told ya so!"

oh, and if i ever buy heavy metal, please lynch me

(TRENDALL)

LOL you sum me up perfectly. One of my fav songs is called: "Bigmouth Strikes Again"

*cheers TheWayItEnds*

lol i like my freudian slip

Absolutely none of these posts help the town in any way, they serve only to clutter up the thread.

For you to say "no ones put forward a decent argument yet as to why my behaviour is scummy" when most of these points have already been mentioned and at least myself, bvoight, thian, trendall and TWIE have all called it scummy is either delusional or an attempt at misdirection.

[Vordark]

dont be rude Vordark. I'm just trying to enjoy the game.

Grow a thicker skin, mellow out and stop the useless posts. I've begun leaning town on you since I am finding it really hard to believe that a newb mafia wouldn't have shut up by now. However, right now you are glowing, red hot distraction that is drawing too much attention away from scum hunting. You obviously have a lot of time in front of the computer which could be very useful for us, but you are burning too much of it on being defensive, voting for people that upset you and trying to be the center of attention. I'm not the only one who thinks this, so maybe, just maybe, it's not us it's you. So please, just chill out and help us hunt.

[Vordark]

Unvote: RaudhrGarm
Vote: Mozamis

I want to hear arguments from people as to how Mozamis is doing

anything

helpful for the town.

no ones put forward a decent argument yet as to why my behaviour is scummy.

You did not vote until after you had announced several random suspicions. You were very quick to link people together with the flimsiest of reasons. Many of your early posts consisted of little more than "So and so looks scummy, but I could be wrong. *blush* I'm so noob", in other words announcing a suspicion, hedging it, etc. You are way more defensive than any ordinary townie I've seen in the archives and the sheer volume of utterly useless posts (cheering, telling us your favorite song, etc.) is filling the thread with gibberish and is now borderline distracting.

Mozamis's entire defense to these suspicions has been either "I'm new" or "You're just repeating things". He has continues to say the arguments are "flimsy" or have been "torn apart", but

most

of the people in this game have stated his behavior is scummy. He's ignored these remarks.

When it has been pointed out that his cluttering of the thread is useless and distracting (others have called it merely "annoying") and was asked to tone it down, the answer is...

dont be rude Vordark. I'm just trying to enjoy the game.

And unless told otherwise by the Mod, I'll post as much as I like

"hums You're Not The Boss of Me"...

So, we have someone who has appeared scummy since at least page two, has ignored all subtle (and not so subtle) hints to tone it down, refuses to acknowledge the suspicions of several people here in any meaningful way, is obviously attempting to gain and maintain sympathy (cheering for TWIE when defended) and is posting an average of two useless posts for every post that has something to do with the game. Said game-related posts being confined to moving his vote either at random or onto people that have upset him.

The only, and I mean only defense being offered and accepted here for this behavior is that Mozamis is new. At what point does that get out of jail free card run out?

Scum or not, this crap is anti-town and we don't need it.

[Vordark]

*sighs" whats anti town is that you can't get into your head that i've already answered the accusations. REREAD MY EARLIER POSTS.
Whats frustrating is that you are wasting the towns time. Look, I dont mind a bandwagon on me later -we might get somei nfo from other people. But we need to start getting more posts from the lurkers like Maxous and Nobody Special. Once everyonehas posted a lot, feel free to come back to me. I'll willing be the first lynch if we all genuinely think its gonna help track scum. But only after other people have contributed more.
But at the moment, town is going nowhere, and you're not helping with your obsessional hunting of me.
I appreciate that you dont like my style. Well, never mind that and focus on hunting scum.

Mozamis's answers have been "I'm new", "You are exaggerating", "Stop being rude", "Don't be so rude", "I'm just trying to enjoy the game", "You are repeating yourself", "Bit scummy of you", etc. Looking over your posts I can't find a single answer that doesn't boil down to "Stop being mean to me, I'm new". Of course, I may have missed something given the sheer volume of useless posts you've made which is making the task of examining your statements harder with every passing hour.

The rest of your post is such obvious deflection it's a joke. "I don't mind a bandwagon on me later"? "I'll willing [sic] be the first lynch if we all genuinely think its gonna help track scum"?

I think the town

is

going somewhere since right now I'm thinking you've been playing to sympathies, filling your post count and attempting to deflect suspicions from the beginning. In fact, aside from voting a couple of obvious lurkers (and making it

really

clear that's what you were doing) and your posting a list of who mentioned who (which conveniently "cleared" you), I can't see a single post of yours that isn't either totally useless, accusing someone of being mean to you, deflecting (not answering) criticism or obviously trying to gain sympathy.

Again, I'm still asking everyone else just how much we're going to write off for a new player.

[Vordark]

Do I know moz is town? Nope. Do I think moz is town? Yep, for reasons I have stated earlier.

@TWIE: What is your response to my posts 185 and 187?

[Vordark]

You aren't going to find an argument from me that moz posts a lot of fluff. ( a LOOOT of fluff)

That being said. I find that he... doesn't really look like scum to me.

If theres something you think I'm missing, please, spell it out for me.

I would love to see your list of reasons to suspect moz.

I believe that my posts 175, 185 and 187 are a decent summary of my thoughts. Specifically, post 187 touches on everything that has concerned me.

*sighs" whats anti town is that you can't get into your head that i've already answered the accusations. REREAD MY EARLIER POSTS.
Whats frustrating is that you are wasting the towns time. Look, I dont mind a bandwagon on me later -we might get somei nfo from other people. But we need to start getting more posts from the lurkers like Maxous and Nobody Special. Once everyonehas posted a lot, feel free to come back to me. I'll willing be the first lynch if we all genuinely think its gonna help track scum. But only after other people have contributed more.
But at the moment, town is going nowhere, and you're not helping with your obsessional hunting of me.
I appreciate that you dont like my style. Well, never mind that and focus on hunting scum.

Mozamis's answers have been "I'm new", "You are exaggerating", "Stop being rude", "Don't be so rude", "I'm just trying to enjoy the game", "You are repeating yourself", "Bit scummy of you", etc. Looking over your posts I can't find a single answer that doesn't boil down to "Stop being mean to me, I'm new". Of course, I may have missed something given the sheer volume of useless posts you've made which is making the task of examining your statements harder with every passing hour.

The rest of your post is such obvious deflection it's a joke. "I don't mind a bandwagon on me later"? "I'll willing [sic] be the first lynch if we all genuinely think its gonna help track scum"?

I think the town

is

going somewhere since right now I'm thinking you've been playing to sympathies, filling your post count and attempting to deflect suspicions from the beginning. In fact, aside from voting a couple of obvious lurkers (and making it

really

clear that's what you were doing) and your posting a list of who mentioned who (which conveniently "cleared" you), I can't see a single post of yours that isn't either totally useless, accusing someone of being mean to you, deflecting (not answering) criticism or obviously trying to gain sympathy.

Again, I'm still asking everyone else just how much we're going to write off for a new player.

Do an ISO. Although, that has been conveniently made a daunting task because of Moz "trying to enjoy the game".

[Vordark]

Given how hard Moz is making an ISO against himself, here's the results of yet another pass through the thread.

The first thing that caught my attention was the bvoight vote situation. Note post #7 below, wherein bvoight clearly states that "games usually begin with RVS (Random Voting Stage)" then votes mozamis "for posting first".

Hi, everyone! Our games usually begin with RVS (Random Voting Stage) or RQS (Random Questioning Stage).

VOTE: mozamis for posting first.

This is Moz's reaction:

Hmm bvoigt seems pretty keen to jump on the first available bandwagon. Not gonna vote yet, but suspiciously scummy behaviour.

This is the first example of Moz tossing the phrase "suspiciously scummy behavior" (or a variation thereof) at someone for absolutely no reason. I also dislike the lack of a vote here, but that's a discussion for later in this post. Thian called him on it and Mozamis's next post is as follows:

Thian, i am holding a vote back cos i have no real idea whether he is scum ornot. Bit too early to tell and all that. Don't just want to vote out of mindless spite/retaliation. Why did you vote for me? *sad face*

I don't like "i have no real idea whether he is scum ornot [sic]". Just prior Moz called bvoight on "suspiciously scummy behavior" but now hedges this. Also, he says he doesn't want to vote out of mindless spite/retaliation but you'll see a lot of that before this is done. The last bit with the "*sad face*" and wink is interesting for a reason I'll point to later.

Post #28 marks the beginning of the "NOOOOOOB" declarations:

no exoerience on this site. played a couple of times with my mates years ago. so TOTAL NOOOOOOB really

Mozamis's next post (#33 in the thread) is the first one that really troubles me:

ok, so on the limited amount of evidence so far, my feeling is that Thian and bvoigt are scum. they seem to be the only players working in tandem/together. Of course, that might be completely wrong :) But they seem to be very eager to lynch someone as quickly as possible, whereas everyone else so far seems a bit more cautious, becuase they don't want to lynch a townie. bvoight and thian don't seem to be so worried about that...

He quickly connects bvoight's random vote and Thian's and says his feeling is that they are scum because "they seem to be the only players working in tandem/together". He then quickly hedges this and implies that bvoight and thian aren't worried about lynching a townie whereas "everyone else so far seems a bit more cautious". This seems to say "bvoight and thian must be Mafia because they aren't acting like me and clearly I'm town".

bvoight called this in post #34 and asked why himself and Thian. Moz's answer:

partly cos u both voted for me. and this isnt me answering for raudhr, but he did vote for you in the post that immediately followed him saying he found u suspicious. just to get the facts right.

Note "partly cos u both voted for me". So it's not okay to vote because of mindless spite/retaliation (which he'll do later anyway), but it *is* okay to link people together for stupid reasons and claim they're scum?
He continues to respond to bvoight in his next post:

the way it ends vote seemed jokey to me (he voted vordak as last person to confirm )
rg voted for u as u were the first person to jump on a bandwagon.
your vote is the only one that seems a bit scummy so far, the votes seem completely fair enough.

So bvoight's totally random vote "for posting first" is the only vote that seems a bit scummy so far? I'll also note that it took Moz four posts to reply to bvoight's one. That is a trend that bears noting.

My first post (#39) calls Moz on his throwing around of baseless suspicions, his lack of a vote and hedging. His response:

i guess we have different approaches. i thought being cautious at this stage might prevent us from lynching a townie by mistake. after all, i haven't got much to go on. so i just said what i was thinking, which was that voight jumping on the first bandwagon seemed scummy. but that didnt seem enough to vote for him. i didnt want to look like i was voting out of retaliation, as i explained above.
so i'm gonna remain cautious until we have a clear idea of who the scum is.
surely announcing suspicions is better than just flinging votes around?

First we have the "different approaches" statement which will continue to crop up. We have more remarks designed to imply that Moz cares deeply about the town. He continues to note bvoight "seemed scummy" and he continues to be clear that he cares very much about his appearances and doesn't want to vote "out of retaliation".

In post #45 I explained why, at the time, I was getting a slight town read off of bvoigt. I also explained why Moz's overly-cautious play and throwing suspicions around was concerning. In the next post, bvoight notes of Moz "While he does look scummy, my gut is telling me newbie town."

Moz's reply in #47 is *very* interesting for a number of reasons:

i think all of vordarks points can be answered thus : bvoigt is more experienced than me, this is my first game. so he is probably behaving in a more "normal"/"acceptable"/town way than i am.
bvoigt knows the form better than i do -what looks town/scum etc. apolgies if i am coming off scum, but i'm just posting" stream of consciousness stuff" really, ie just typing what i think.
and of course i'm worried about how i look to others! i dont want get lynched, you see...
maybe voight is town -thats why i havent voted yet.
as to my passivity, i am reading a few of the older games on this forums, and it does seem that common practice is to vote more rather than FoS. still, clearly i will be voting at some point, just not yet.
i'm gonna check who hasnt posted yet -what do u guys think about lurking being scummy?

The first bit of this post is him hiding behind the noob card immediately after bvoigt said "my gut is telling me newbie town". Moz attempts to explain away his prior and all future suspicious behavior right there. He follows this up with "apologies if i am coming off scum".

He continues by now saying "maybe voight is town", beginning to distance himself from the previous discussion. The last sentence is important because it sets up Moz's future votes: "what do u guys think about lurking being scummy?"

In post #52, Thian is the first to note that scum hide behind the noob card all the time and asks why he is brining up being a noob so much. He also draws attention to Moz's stupid linkage of himself and bvoigt. Moz's response:

ok, so on the limited amount of evidence so far, my feeling is that Thian and bvoigt are scum. they seem to be the only players working in tandem/together. Of course, that might be completely wrong But they seem to be very eager to lynch someone as quickly as possible, whereas everyone else so far seems a bit more cautious, becuase they don't want to lynch a townie. bvoight and thian don't seem to be so worried about that...

Mozamis:
observations, okay we get it, you're a noob. Scum hide in "Noob" cards all the time, why are you bringing up your noob factor this much. Also reason for your want to pair myself up with bvoigt because we are working in tandem? You are purposely trying to misdirect suspicion off of you onto 2 others right now as a divide and confuse tactic. I don't like it.

wow this was an aggressive post. dont like that much. Am sensing am i going to have to toughen up to survive here
I said i was new once. thats not "bringing the noob factor this much". you and voigt both voted for me, so i saw that as working in tandem.
Yes, i certainly am trying to misdirect suspicion from me, as i am town. Although "dividee and confuse" tactic is exagerating what am i doing. I simply said that i thought you and voigt were suspicious.
Or is that too confusing for you?

Am not keen on how you are EXAGERATING and OBFUSCATING and RIDICULING my arguments. I may not know a lot about mafia. But i know these are ancient rhetorical devices to make your opponent look weak/silly/a liar.
Bit scummy of you?

First up, he calls this an "aggressive post" and says he doesn't like that much. "Am sensing am i going to have to toughen up to survive here ". This is a blatant attempt at gaining sympathy. He continues to use the fact that both Thian and bvoigt voted for him as evidence of their working in tandem.

Notice the last paragraph is entirely devoted to saying "You're being mean", with the last line being yet another example of tossing "suspiciously scummy" at someone. This is a prime example of Moz's entire strategy for defending himself. "Stop being mean to me! I'm not scum, you are!"

In post #57 Moz continues to make the fact that he's new crystal clear:

hmm, glancing over my posts i have mentioned that i am a NOOOOOOOOOOOOB aa few times lol
Oh well, what of it? So are most people here. My point was that, to a semi experienced player, bvoigts posts are going to look more strucutred, more purposeful, and in short, more town than mine.
the fact that he looks more town than me, doesnt of course, mean that he is town and i am scum.

He admits he keeps calling himself a noob, laughs it off, then explains that others posts are surely going to look more town than his because of his lack of experience. I'd like to point out that this entire post is Mozamis again using the noob card to explain his behavior, so he's doing again exactly what was just pointed out. The constant message from Moz here is "I'm new and I'm town".

In post #68, Moz continues:

Mozamis:
Why are you agitated? Your posts are coming across this way. Now that you agree that you have made the mention of your "noobness" more than just once. i will re-state, the fact that you are playing the "noob" card doesn't excuse you from being mafia or being questioned. Often times, newer players will throw the Noob card out there to get a free pass. I found it odd that you are throwing that around like you are hiding in it to get sympathy points.

Guess i was agitated because I'm innocent, and i always find it annoying to be wrongly accused. Like everyone else But again, I suppose have to get used to that in mafia I don't mind the questions. I just found your "ok, we get it" post slightly aggressive. Not trying to get sympathy (how could that work when there are so many noobs in this game?), merely pointing out that when peole are not used to an agreed format of something, they are likely to behave in unpredictable ways. Eg "OMG! he's playing the noob card!-classic scum tell! when in fact, he is just posting like a noob.
I do see your point though, how scum might like to hide behind that. But i have nothing to hide. And nothing to declare, except my genius

On the RG thing, surely best not to try and get him replaced? He is posting, which is more than can be said for a lot of people.

He explains his agitation by continuing to claim town, uses the words "wrongly accused" and continues to call Thian's post "aggressive". Then he immediately throws out "Not trying to get sympathy (how could that work when there are so many noobs in this game?)". That is a glowing red flag. No one yet had suggested Moz was trying to gain sympathy, yet here he is defending against the accusation. Also, he uses this as yet another excuse to use the noob word.

Moz's post (#85) has be LMFAO:

have to say, i think all this talk about night phases/the rvs etc is a bit of a distraction from scum hunting.

Yeah, the talk about night phases and RVS was distracting. I'm glad we got rid of that to make more room for Moz's one-line emotes like his humming a song and yawing. Thank god we've got Moz on the case to save us from distractions. I think this post was just a clever attempt to appear town, which Trendall bought in his later analysis by calling this post "very pro-town" (in post #102).

In the very next post, Moz throws out the first of his lurker votes. Note that in a post above he announced his intention to vote the lurkers.

he said he was absent until mon. its now tuesday. So i'll whack my vote on trendall and see if it gets him to speak

VOTE TRENDALL

Shortly after this he made another post:

shall we all just whack votes on the lurkers, ie trendall, maxous and vordark? feel free to put your votes back on me when they show up :)
But would be nice to speed things up beyond the pace of an asthmatic snail :)

This is all "See, I'm voting the lurkers! I totally have a pro-town reason for my votes!" This is voting the easy targets while avoiding the need to offer any real reasoning or discussion.

After Trendall posts, Moz quickly moves the vote to another lurker:

yes, for anyone who rereads this thread, page four -after post 87- is in the wrong order. the forum went down last night.
detailed posts from trendall HUZZAH!
So to try and get Maxous to post

UNVOTE VOTE MAXOUS

Again, easy vote. He doesn't actually discuss anything in Trendall's post or ask any questions, just moves on to the next lurker.

Post #119 continues to raise my level of suspicion:

Mozamis:
I don't see myself voting for a lurker just yet. Some have stated they will not be around. So my vote isn't moving from you just yet. you are not out of the woods that easily. You stated you want to move the game along. I am assuming you want the night phase to hurry up? Why is that?

LOL i find this post a bit ridiculous "you obviously want the night phase to hurry up (COS MOZAMIS IS SCUM PEOPLE!)
i think its fairly obvious that i just wanted the game to speed up a bit.
And after lots of juicy posts last night ,it has :)
Either Thian is town and genuinely thinks i am scum, or he's scum.
Without trying to take it personally, i am finding his posts a bit scummy. all this exageration of my comments, and "sinisterisation" (not a real word lol?) of my comments seems a bit scummy.
I'm keeping my vote on maxous until he posts, but thian looks dodgy to me. Unless she's just very clumsy town *bangs head against brick wall* :)

Moz continues the pattern of calling posts against him "ridiculous", "exagerations" and continues to say anything of the like "seems a bit scummy". Of course, Moz's last sentence gives us yet another hedge, making sure he's covered his bases.

With post #120, Moz begins to ramp up the totally useless posts, many of which I've already highlighted. Posts like these serve only to fill the thread and Moz's ISO, making it more difficult to extract anything of note.

In post #122, Moz moves onto the next lurker, although he doesn't vote, just drops in a casual one line post:

ps anyone else feel that Nobody special is just blending in a bit?

This is buried in the middle of a continuous string of *EIGHT* short posts from Moz (#118 - #125). Of course, two of these posts were single line posts to throw suspicion on another lurker:

hmm, second time maxous has been browsing this forum without posting. is that suspicious or laziness?

i see ya there maxous! post! :)

Post #128 is one of the most laughable things I've ever seen:

so, in another game, at the end, one of the scum(who lost) said "yes, i should have mentioned my scum partner at some point. not mentioning him was a mistake. so heres a list of all the players and who they havent mentioned. Not saying this proves ANYTHING, just a reference list at this point.

MOZAMIS: has NOT mentioned NO-ONE :roll: nice grammar.
VORDARK:" " RG,THIAN,MAX,NS.
RG: " "VORDARK,TWIE,THIAN,TRENDALL,NS.
TWIE: " "NO ONE
THIAN: " " VORDARK,TWIE,TRENDALL,MAXOUS,NS.
BVOIGT: " "VORDARK,TRENDALL
MAXOUS:" "NO ONE.
NS: " "VORDARK,TWIE,MOZAMIS,THIAN,TRENDALL,MAXOUS.

so by this logc, if i was scum,NS would be my partner because he hasnt mentioned me yet.
Totally realise the problems with this (eg TWIE and MOZAMIS have mentioned everyone, but obviously could just be blending in etc).
Still, i was bored :P

Moz compiles a list of who mentioned who which conveniently "clears" himself. Note that this was right after a set of posts from Moz where he quickly mentions all the lurkers, which looks a lot like he was trying to fill out his own list. Of course, at the bottom he makes it clear the he and TWIE have mentioned everyone, but then laughs it off and concludes with "Still, i was bored". This is Moz bringing us "evidence" but Moz immediately distancing himself from it and writing it off as the result of boredom in case anyone called him on it.

Also note that this is a back-door means of highlighting two lurkers (TWIE and Maxous).

Now, in post #130 I ask our IC just how much weight should be given to the "noob" factor. Moz had been giving me scum vibes since page one, but everyone here seemed to be willing to write this behavior off. It was a post that I think made it quite clear that I remained suspicious of Moz but was looking for some tip from our IC concerning how much is typical to read into a new player. At the very end of my post I made the remark "If it is reasonable to discount Mozamis's behavior thus far on account of inexperience, Thian's continued reaction as a more experienced player bears further scrutiny and TWIE's comment here makes more sense..." Moz's reaction?

so you're suspicious of Thian?

He completely ignores all of the other comments, offers no insight to post itself and instead writes a one-line post to direct suspicion back to Thian.

Nobody Special responded to my question in post #134, which Moz replies to:

@Nobody Special:

How much weight is reasonable (or simply typical) to give to experience or inexperience in determining whether or not behavior is suspicious and worthy of scrutiny? Thus far, I have been giving it near zero weight, but I am beginning to think this may be an error.

Normally, I don't factor "newbness" int omy suspicions; at least not

too

much.

I look at mozamis as a cute, adorable puppy so full of energy, bouncing around the room, trying to get

everyone

to pay attention to him (her? I default to male, and haven't checked its gender field yet).

I'm sure (I hope; it's bordering on annoying) that mozamis will expend all that energy at some point, and will grow into being a good and respectable Mafia player.

In other words, to boil it down to a word, at the moment I see mozamis as Neutral.

lol BIT patronising? I am just trying to be active. "good, respectable mafia player" how pompous of you. Everyone has different styles, nobody special. At the moment your style seems to be to post without much content...

Again we have "You're being mean to me" and Mozamis highlighting that he's "just trying to be active". He concludes with "At the moment your style seems to be to post without much content". So Mozamis makes clear mention he's trying to be active, all the while pointing an FoS at the lurkers and now NS.

In #137 he continues:

vordark, why dont you like "how hard i seem to be trying". Talk about "you are damned if you do, damned if you don't". I am posting a lot cos i enjoy it, and i want town to win.
Sorry if thats suspicious.

Mozamis is "posting a lot cos i enjoy it, and i want town to win". Again, "I'm active and I'm town". Notice that this is post #137 and Mozamis hasn't actually contributed *anything* real to the game. The sum total of his contribution is a few obvious votes on the lurkers, all the while setting himself up as a sympathetic, "active" newbie.

In post #138 we get:

ok, I admit this vote is partly cos he's last post irritated me (OMGUS i believe?), but he has been very vague. seems keener to be the IC than to hunt scum. so:

VOTE NOBODY SPECIAL

if he gets a bit more involved in the hunt, i'll reconsider :)

Oh, so Moz *will* vote out of mindless spite/retaliation. Also, he's clearly an uninvolved lurker which Moz has already established is bad, unlike himself who posts a lot.

In #141, the discussion has turned to RaudhrGarm:

On RG, if hes mafia i'll eat my left toenail.
Gotta be very clever scum to play the way he's been playing. I know this gets a bit circular, but if i was scum, i'm not sure i'd want to look quite as "can't be bothered to help town" as he has.
Be amazed if he is scum.

Here Moz says "if i was scum, i'm not sure i'd want to look quite as 'can't be bothered to help town' as he has". Note again that this is Moz pointing at the lurker and making it clear that his own behavior wouldn't match. In other words, "If I was scum, I'd be doing the opposite of what I'm doing now. I'm clearly town because I'm posting a lot and I keep saying I want to help the town win".

Of course, after this post Moz makes certain to put another one in as padding:

oh, and if i ever buy heavy metal, please lynch me ;)

This continues the trend of surrounding anything game related with accusations of meanness or one-line drivel. Anything to get that post count up and make an ISO harder.

In post #148, Trendall makes a statement that really starts me looking hard at Mozamis once I went back and re-read it:

Actually, I'd say that Mozamis has done the least 'blending in' out of anyone here. He's posted like a million posts or something and is really putting himself in the foreground right now. Problem is, I think Mozamis is the kind of person who would do that regardless of whether he was town or mafia, so I'm still neutral.

In post #149, Mozamis gives a "response" to an earlier post by Thian.

Mozamis:

You gave us the reason "why" you stated "Being new....avert attention". However, why do you feel the need state it? Even prior to me questioning you about the subject, you kept stating it, unprovoked, why did you feel it is necessary?

No, i was provoked by Vordark as i explained in my previous post. I am as keen as everyone else to drop the "noob thing" but you keep bringing it up.

So my posts are "provoking" him? Again, this is the "You're being mean to me" defense. Mozamis then tries to say he wants to drop the "noob thing" and it's Thian that keeps bringing it up. This is a deflection. Mozamis was very intent on making his noobness clear to everyone and now that someone is pressing him on it, he's trying to get distance and put the "issue" back on the "aggressive" attacker.

In post #150, Mozamis responds to Trendall's remark above:

Actually, I'd say that Mozamis has done the least 'blending in' out of anyone here. He's posted like a million posts or something and is really putting himself in the foreground right now. Problem is, I think Mozamis is the kind of person who would do that regardless of whether he was town or mafia, so I'm still neutral.

(TRENDALL)

LOL you sum me up perfectly. One of my fav songs is called: "Bigmouth Strikes Again" ;)

Not only is this post useless for the town, but it is yet another blatant attempt to gain and maintain sympathy.

In post #152, Mozamis continues to respond to Thian's pressing:

Thian, please look again at my replies to you ,post 38 (p2) and posts 54 and 57 (p3). In all of them I respond to your questions, and quite clearly i thought.
This leads me to conclude :
1) You are an uncomprehending townie.
2) You are scum.

2)seems more likely, and yet what makes me unsure is that surely the mafia would use better tactics than you are. Your tactic (if u r scum) seems to be repeat the same accusation and ignore the answers. That doesn't seem a great scum ploy to me. Or is it one that is used?
anyone else got any thoughts on Thian?

I will note that posts #38, #54 and #57 contain only his already noted weak justification of bvoigt's "scumminess" and his "stop being mean to me"/"I'm a noob" defense as previously noted. Mozamis also counters with his other standard response, "You must be scum!" and tries to put the attention back onto Thian.

He follows up with:

ah. got it. if you r scum, i guess the tactic u r using is" get everyone to go off on a wild goose chase", ie whack suspicion on me. Is that called diversion?
but if you r town, thian, i hope you now understand my postion and we can move on.

So clearly, if Thian continues to press the matter he's scum and not town.

In post #161 TWIE points out some clear issues with Thian's recent posts, to which Mozamis replies:

*cheers TheWayItEnds* :lol:

In posts #163 and #164 Mozamis makes a very weak and transparent attempt at a personal attack on Thian, now that he smells some blood in the water.

So this is from Thians first ever game on this site (end of the game, he was town):
@ kingdavid. you couldn't have said it any better. I did make a fool of myself through the game.

It was hard for me to come across pro town

and I am not surprised I became that target. Next time I will try to not be so flakey with posts and take a little time thinking.

I am more used to playing mafia in person

as conversations happen at that moment. Sleeping on something and then coming back to it and then flipping through countless of pages.

It was hard for me to keep up

but yeah, if I hadn't known any better, I would have pinned me as being scum LOL
(Thian, Newbie 963,p30,post 732, my bolding)

Still, at least you didnt play the boob card in your first game, eh? ;)

lol i like my freudian slip

Why say with one post what you can say with two or three? Gotta get that post count up so that no one notices I haven't actually contributed anything but a few lurker votes.

In post #167 Mozamis drops the funniest whopper I've seen in a while:

no ones put forward a decent argument yet as to why my behaviour is scummy.
The argument seems to consist of:
1) Mozamis didnt vote when he was supicious of someone.
2) he then claimed newness as his defence.
3)therefore he is scum.

As syllogisms go, its pretty weak.

There have been many arguments put forth for why Mozamis's behavior is scummy. Half of the people in this game have said that Mozamis's behavior is scummy. This isn't a defense, it's a hallucination.

Posts #172, #173 and #174 push "You're being mean to me", continue to gain favor/sympathy and push suspicion away on the mean and agressive player.

In post #175 I highlight Mozamis's behavior, especially the flood of useless posts which are making it harder to sort out people's statements (especially his own). Mozamis's response:

dont be rude Vordark. I'm just trying to enjoy the game.

Yep, the "Stop being mean to me" defense.

In post #178...

Mozamis:
The pressure is fine. Votes are votes. You need to realize, that TheWayItEnds, is just as guilty as the next person in this game. Just be careful when someone is coming to your defense, you shouldn't just readily accept it because they could just be mafia trying to buddy up to you, then night kill you and no one will know any better because you didn't suspect them.

Oh, i wasnt acceptng it, but i did enjoy it. Of course, i relaise he could be scum But he destroyed your arguments completely.

Here Mozamis continues to cheer on TWIE and gain sympathy, even flattering him in the last sentence. He does that in #182 as well...

Mozamis:
So you won't bother questioning why TheWayItEnds is defending you? Or Why he called you bait? Do you know how he knows you are lynch bait. He is essentially confirming you are town. How would anyone know that except for mafia. Wake up mozamis. Please.

Of course everyone is suspect. Do try and be sensible. I just liked the way he ripped your nonsenscial "argument" to shreds. Of course, he could be scum and you could be town. But i liked his style

Mozamis likes your style, TWIE. Won't you be his friend and keep the mean people away?

In #183, he responds to me:

dont be rude Vordark. I'm just trying to enjoy the game.

Grow a thicker skin, mellow out and stop the useless posts. I've begun leaning town on you since I am finding it really hard to believe that a newb mafia wouldn't have shut up by now. However, right now you are glowing, red hot distraction that is drawing too much attention away from scum hunting. You obviously have a lot of time in front of the computer which could be very useful for us, but you are burning too much of it on being defensive, voting for people that upset you and trying to be the center of attention. I'm not the only one who thinks this, so maybe, just maybe, it's not us it's you. So please, just chill out and help us hunt.

You need to calm down, grow up and stop being rude. Your persistent attacks on me are a volossal waste of the towns time. I'll you off cos 1) you're a NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOB and 2) you're probably a kid.
So look through all my replies to thians ridiculous arguments from the beginning.. You'll see that i answered them early on. Since then, he has merely being repeating them, As have you. Either you are scum, or just not very bright. Please try and sharpen up, and stop being rude. They only serve to devalue your already flimsy arguments.
And unless told otherwise by the Mod, I'll post as much as I like :P

I'm still being mean oh, and now I'm a noob kid. Jeesh, is Mozamis using the "personal attack" strategy he decried earlier? He then highlights the non-existent/useless responses he's supposedly made. Then it's more personal attacks, "Stop being mean" and calling the arguments against him so far "flimsy" again. As a final note, he continues to make it clear that he'll keep posting as much as he wants, even though that sort of thing hurts the town.

Post #184 proves that...

"hums You're Not The Boss of Me"...;)

Now he's back to hammering the lurkers, specifially Nobody Special because he smells blood there and he's an easy, risk-free target.

So, again, look through what Mozamis has posted here and see it for what it is. His total contribution? Easy votes on obvious targets, the justification for which he was careful to establish beforehand, all the while continuning to make it clear that these people are doing the opposite of what he is doing. He has not offered any real analysis on anything. He's pointed an FoS randomly around the room, voted only when it's risk-free or to vote against mean people. This is *all* that he has contributed.

Moz's only defense to any of these suspicions has been either "I'm new" or "Stop being mean", usually followed with "I'm not scum, you are!"

And throughout all of this, he has been blatantly attempting to gain sympathy, hide behind his noob status and inflate his post count so it's harder to ISO.

So again, how much of this obviously scummy behavior do we write off?

[Vordark]

vordark, you make some good points, but...I don't know. I just don't get the feeling that mozamis is scum.

What possible basis do you have for this feeling? If Mozamis had even one other game under his belt he'd be the first one off the island. He is being cut way too much slack and only because he is new.

[Vordark]

Oh God......

The way i see it, we need to lynch me pretty quick, or move on.
"Put up or shut up" in other words.
If we lynch me, at least that narrows down the suspects a bit and we can get somewhere.
Or we can get another bandwagon going.
I've answered everyones accusations in my posts. While I have posted too much, they are quite short.
So go and read them.
I'm not answering questions for a while, unless I am lynch minus one and am asked to roleclaim.
SO LYNCH ME OR BUGGER OFF.

moz... A post like this has literally never helped anyone.

Why would you ever stop answering questions, thats the only way town can gather information...

Doing things like this is why you look like scum.

What TWIE said.

Moz says "I've answered everyones accusations in my posts." That's only true to the extent that Moz's answers have been "I'm new", "Stop being mean to me" and "I'm not scum, you are", as I pointed out in my case. Look at the replies from Moz since. They fit neatly into three categories: useless filler; trying to gain sympathy and attempting to throw suspicion back on me. The pattern remains consistent. If you don't have a defense, ignore the accusation, try to get your friends to speak up for you and deflect suspicion back on the attacker.

I'm not answering questions for a while, unless I am lynch minus one and am asked to roleclaim.

So the first part of Moz's post is trying to imply he cares so much about the town he wouldn't mind being lynched if it helped us, but a mere four lines later he makes this statement, which is one of the worst things a townie under suspicion could do. As soon as the first sign that Moz was being looked at more closely crops up, he takes his ball and goes home.

I'm not gonna answer any more quiestions cos i've answered them already.
Lol a bit sulky of me. But i am fucked off with all this nonsensical gibberrish masquerading as logic thats being directed at me.
I'd rather get lynched. That will help the town. And it will prove me right. Which i always like.
SO ITS PUT UP OR SHUT UP TIME.

So our suspicions and reasoning are actually "nonsensical gibberrish masquerading as logic"? I find it hard to believe that any innocent, rational person could look at what I've written and not see that it makes sense and is worthy of consideration. Certainly calling it "gibberish" is laughable. I'll also note that "Lol a bit sulky of me" and indeed the entire tone of both of these messages look like another appeal to emotion. Mozamis is so upset, maybe we should just let it slide.

I see nothing in what he's posted that is actually answering for this behavior, despite his repeated claims that he has. If there were ever a better opportunity to do so, it would be now. Every bit of my suspicion is there, clearly described with examples. At the

very

least, the sum total of the response shouldn't be "I'm not scum, you are!", trying to milk sympathy from people then clamming up when that doesn't appear to be working anymore.

SO ITS PUT UP OR SHUT UP TIME.

My vote's still on you, so I've "PUT UP" a while ago.

As a final note, as I was writing this, Moz replied to NS's most recent post:

Wow what amazing insights from our IC lol
Feeble.

No discussion of NS's remarks on bvoigt or RG, particularly his question to RG on who he would kill right now. Nothing but a tiny, useless appeal to emotion trying to throw suspicion onto NS and the bandwagon Moz is desperately trying to create.

[Vordark]

I still think NS (along with Maxous) is scum, and Trendall is town. This game seems to be stalling, though.

I'm hoping the "stall" is just some sort of early Day One blues and that there will be an eruption of involvement, excitement and usefulness once things get further along. Right now it seems that absolutely

nothing

will motivate half of the people here to debate. That really doesn't seem like a good thing.

RG, NS and Trendall have all been lurking hardcore, with RG clearly the front-runner for most useless. Maxous seems to have ramped up his involvement over the weekend. I can't honestly say I have any reads for the four of them at this time, except that I think RG is the most harmful of that group.

[Vordark]

Unvote: Mozamis
Vote: Nobody Special

RG, NS and Trendall have all been lurking hardcore, with RG clearly the front-runner for most useless. Maxous seems to have ramped up his involvement over the weekend. I can't honestly say I have any reads for the four of them at this time, except that I think RG is the most harmful of that group.

I think the lack of involvement in this game, from multiple players, is irritating in the extreme. I also think I'm unvoting obvscum here, but since we're getting fuck-all from these people it doesn't seem to matter. With the level of lurking here now it's next to impossible for us to accomplish anything.

And given I read this today...

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... _a_good_IC

I'm more than a little perplexed/frustrated by our IC's behavior. I think some of you are getting a stronger scum vibe from him than I am, but he's certainly not being very helpful.

(Special note to the Newbies about being in seven games at once: Do not try this at home. It takes an amazing amount of time, patience, and organizational skills.)

How's that working out for you?

[Vordark]

I'm still not really convinced by any of the arguments against mozamis.

Can you provide us with your reasoning?

[Vordark]

Perhaps he just really hates you? I know someone like that on a different forum. Every game, they'd target me, and I could never figure out why...

72 hours fly by...

I think the mystery is solved.

So are you waiting for your next wake-up call or are you going to actually participate now?

[Vordark]

Vote: RaudhrGarm

RG has made it

very

clear in his posts that he couldn't wait for the night phase, now he hammers our IC and cost us about ten RL days worth of discussion. Since there were

three consecutive posts

warning that NS was at L-1, I can't think that was anything other than intentional. Added to his lurking and general attitude, he's moved up to the top of my scum list.

[Vordark]

Well if you lynch me, it would clear bvoigt.

And your reasoning is?

Going on the evidence provided by Vordark in this post. I hadn't really been interested in persecuting Mozamis, but I realised that it is possibl there is a more expereienced Mafian guiding Mozamis on what to post so that he can get away with killing villagers while getting to play innocent due to noobiness. Also, considering that he was the one who pushed for the NS lynch.

I am just as suspicious of Moz as I ever was. At this point, however, you are far higher on my Scum-O-Meter.

I may have provided the final vote, but I thought that we would have gotten a clue from whoever was killed, making it easier to find scum the next day. Ergo my eagerness to finish the first day phase when I saw that four people had already voted for NS.

So you admit to hammering our IC just to get into the night phase. That was incredibly anti-town. It cost us ten days worth of discussion and an experienced scum hunter.

[Vordark]

Unvote: Mozamis
Vote: Nobody Special

RG, NS and Trendall have all been lurking hardcore, with RG clearly the front-runner for most useless. Maxous seems to have ramped up his involvement over the weekend. I can't honestly say I have any reads for the four of them at this time, except that I think RG is the most harmful of that group.

I think the lack of involvement in this game, from multiple players, is irritating in the extreme. I also think I'm unvoting obvscum here, but since we're getting fuck-all from these people it doesn't seem to matter. With the level of lurking here now it's next to impossible for us to accomplish anything.

And given I read this today...

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... _a_good_IC

I'm more than a little perplexed/frustrated by our IC's behavior. I think some of you are getting a stronger scum vibe from him than I am, but he's certainly not being very helpful.

(Special note to the Newbies about being in seven games at once: Do not try this at home. It takes an amazing amount of time, patience, and organizational skills.)

How's that working out for you?

[Vordark]

Well, when I find people are suspicious of me, I tend to lie low until it blows over.

Won't be active again until next Sunday. Family stuff has come up.

ORLY?

[Vordark]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's scum, but we're going to wait for a claim this time.

I'm finding it difficult to agree with this. There are two possibilities with RG:

1. RG as Mafia. Lynching him moves us closer to a town win. I believe this to be the reality.

2. RG as Town. I don't think you can find a worse example of a townie. He has done nothing to help the game, hurt us with his hammer vote, has lied, lurked and now goes MIA for a week as is his self-claimed defensive strategy for when he's under suspicion. If he's lynched and flips town, I think we still move closer to a town win.

I think these are the only possibilities with regard to RG and I believe I have described them fairly.

Perhaps I should ask what you believe we will gain should we wait an entire RL week in the hopes that RG will grace us with his presence?

[Vordark]

He could be a cop or doc, with a convincing breadcrumb. No, it's not likely, but it's certainly possible.

You believe this possibility, even when taking into account all of his past behavior, is enough reason to wait seven RL days to see if he's even going to resume posting? Moreover, would you believe any claim that might come from him?

[Vordark]

You believe this possibility, even when taking into account all of his past behavior, is enough reason to wait seven RL days to see if he's even going to resume posting?

It's a possibility, and nothing bad is going to come from our waiting.

Fair enough. I would like to hear Maxous, Thian and TWIE's opinion on delaying the game on account of RG's latest disappearance.

@Crazy:

Are you taking RG's gone until Sunday post as a V/LA, or will he be subject to prodding? Also, given the current situation is replacing him off the table? I'm hoping so.

Moreover, would you believe any claim that might come from him?

Probably not, but I might be willing to believe him if he breadcrumbed.

I asked this question with my mind including any breadcrumming as part of the claim. Personally, I would find it difficult to believe anything he says at this point even if his tongue came notarized.

[Vordark]

So i went and looked at the NS lynch again. Here's how it plays out.
Page 6: moz vote
Page 7: bv vote (til lynch) moz unvote
Page 9: moz vote
Page 12: Trendall, Vordark vote (1 post apart)
Page 13: RG hammer

Elapsed time from Trendall vote to RG hammer 2 and a half hours.

Fun fact: Second time this game Trendall and Vordark piggyback votes within a few posts of each other.

This seems like you are trying to say something. Can you elaborate? Also, can you give us your opinion of the RG situation?

[Vordark]

VOTE: Mozamis
I am not convinced by him at all on day 2. He is suddenly convinced Garm is mafia after defending him the entire day 1. He has'nt properly explained the reason he is convinced Garm is mafia despite being asked. Bvoight does not immediatly vote for Garm and Mozamis claims Bvoight is scum but does'nt want to explain the reason. He is constantly claiming for a quick-lynch on RG the obv mafia, despite what happened yesterday with RG hammering too early - which is part of the reason he says Garm is mafia I think. It looks like he discussed strategy with his partner and changed his approach.
Give me a break :/

This post bugged me all night. I've been avoiding staring at Moz over the last few RL days, since I appeared to be the only one getting such a scum vibe off him on Day One when I made my case. Looking back through his posts now, though...

Post #287:

well, lets get a BW going on SOMEONE. Obviuosly i would say NS. But a few people seem to find RG dodgy, so we could get one going on him.I just think to get Vordarks desired "eruption of involvement" we really need to get the heat on someone. At least L-2, if not L-1.

Not caring who gets a bandwagon is troubling. In the last bit, he's pushing to get the vote as close to a lynch as possible.

Post #289:

^
Did'nt you say you thought RG is town?
_____________
The common denominator here seems to be Nobody Special. Not my first choice but I would'nt overly mind.

I suppose RaudharGarm is laying low again until myself and NS forget about him. Confused townie surely, what part of that vote on Trendall looks like confusion?

Yes I do think Rg is probably town, and NS is prob. scum.
So I'd rather have a BW on NS.
But if everyone else wants to go with RG, I'd go with that. (sheeping?). On the basis better to have a BW on someone than no one.
But lets crank up the BW on NS folks!

Moz says RG is "probably town", but is wishy-washy enough to go with him if everyone else wants to because "better to have a BW on someone than no one". The last sentence is also continuing the train on NS.

Sorry NS
Ok, so I realise i have ZILCH scum hunting credibility right now having pushed hard for NS lynch.
But ASSUMING that at least one of those on NS Bw is scum, that leaves bvoigt, vordark and rg.
Vordark is town i think. Just dont think scum would have tunnelled for me quite so much as vordark did.
so rg or bvoigt?

the way rg hammered looked dodgy.

VOTE RAUDHRGARM

First post after the mis-lynch. Moz makes a suspect list from the NS BW, based on the idea that at least one of them is Mafia. The list is bvoigt, me and RG. He eliminates me because of my "tunnelling" and basically flips a coin here, backing it up only with "the way RG hammered looked dodgy".

In #311 she pushes bvoigt to vote RG. In #313 calls bvoigt RG's scum partner. Thus follows...

Oh, now I'm scum? Why?

lets get rg lynched and the we'll deal with you scum

No, really. Please explain.

A short interchange between bvoigt and RG leads to this Mozamis post in #324:

hmm either some damn good bussing going on from bviogt or i am wrong YET again.
Ok, lets bin my suspicions of bvoigt and concentrate on stringing up RG

Next, Maxous and bvoigt both ask Mozamis to explain his remarks regarding bvoigt:

@Mozamis: Please answer why you think Bvoight is mafia?

Yeah, please answer this. Even if you don't think I'm mafia anymore, explain what your thought process was.

To which he responds:

no i dont think i want to. Completely fair question. I shouldnt have mentioned it really-better for town if we concentrate on one scum at a time rather than the scum team. If we lynch rg and bvoigt still looks suspicious, I'll explain it.

bvoigt asks...

I just want to know your thought process. Or were you just flinging around random, baseless suspicions?

And Mozamis ignores it. When it appears that we're not moving forward on an RG lynch, Mozamis posts #344:

ok then i guess we should all wait and not post properly for a week until RG gets back. Otherwise, there's still one scum amongst us who will try and get us to lynch someone else.
Suppose we have to post something otherwise we get replaced, but i strongly recommend we do as little as possible until RG gets back.

I like absolutely none of this. I think Mozamis needs to start answering some questions and explaining his reasoning.

[Vordark]

But then again.... Thian has still been pinging my scumdar.

Can you tell us again why this is? Thian's writing style is a bit hard for me to follow (it takes me about five reads on average to digest one of his posts, but that's just a personal thing I'm sure), but the only thing that has rubbed me the wrong way was a comment he made about Moz early on where he said he was trying to end the day early. That seemed like a pretty big reach, but only moved him +1 for me. You appear to have a stronger read so I'd like to see your case.

[Vordark]

lets just keep focused on rg people. too much talk is good for scum.

Unvote
Vote: Mozamis

Your last sentence is the most anti-town statement I can think of.

[Vordark]

After going through the thread yet again, I'm beginning to think the most plausible scenario here is that RG is just horrible town and Moz is scum trying to mis-lynch us into lylo for Day 3. Moz's defense of "I'm not talking because that will help the scum" is absurd. I'm also thinking that Maxous is correct about Moz's sudden and dramatic change in attitude over the night phase.

Moz is at L-1 right now. It would be nice to see something more than "Not gonna" from him, when he's asked to say something.

[Vordark]

I think there's already enough of a case for Moz being scum without even factoring in Day Two. If you

do

look at Day Two, Moz's behavior took a complete 180, as Maxous observed, and I believe his explanation to be the most plausible. Moz's scum buddy coached him during the night phase. The more I look at the RG wagon, the less I like it and the less I like the people on it.

Moz pushing a second fast wagon and playing the "lurk the suspicion away" card all of a sudden smells like a scum gambit to me. The longer he sits at L-1 and says nothing, the worse it looks to me.

[Vordark]

I'm more concerned with how he

definitly knows

Garm is mafia. And then while I was looking back I noticed also that Garm votes Mozamis with his first post of the day. What's more interesting is that Mozamis says nothing about this. Remember his reaction to every suspicion on him in day 1? But Garm votes him..not a bother on him, no refutal.

They did'nt mention a lick of suspicion on each-other in day 1. It looks like bussing to me, vote for each-other, seperate and not get caught together.

I don't think Moz definitely knows Garm is mafia. I think he definitely knows Garm is town. I considered the idea that this is a bus, but that would be a big risk.

After his behavior Day One and his hammering of NS, RG is an almost guaranteed lynch coming into Day Two. I find it hard to believe that a bus attempt would be made there, since it would be almost certain to result in a kill rather than just a way to deflect suspicion.

Maybe

if this was RG trying to sacrifice himself to make Moz look good for Day Three, but I think that's a stretch.

I think the more plausible scenario is that Moz is pushing for an RG wagon because it is as close to a sure lynch as you can get. RG goes down Day Two, Mafia NK's someone tonight and we're in lylo for Day Three. Moz continues to use his teflon noob coating and FoS's someone else here, probably bvoigt given the setup he's already dropped, which

also

appeared to come out of nowhere after the night phase.

[Vordark]

vanilla townie. *I'm dead face*

The only thing that would have dissuaded me here was if Moz had made a cop claim, because that would be the only justification I could see for the near-silent tunnel on RG. As it is, I find a VT claim here less than compelling.

[Vordark]

Now Bvoight is maybe mafia?
I'm not even going into why I'm mafia while he's sure Thian is town :/

@Vordark: I'll go back and look at Bvoight a bit closer then.

To be sure,

I'm

not saying bvoigt is Mafia. Moz is:

Sorry NS
Ok, so I realise i have ZILCH scum hunting credibility right now having pushed hard for NS lynch.
But ASSUMING that at least one of those on NS Bw is scum, that leaves bvoigt, vordark and rg.
Vordark is town i think. Just dont think scum would have tunnelled for me quite so much as vordark did.
so rg or bvoigt?

the way rg hammered looked dodgy.

VOTE RAUDHRGARM

Which began the following interchange...

Hmm. That hammer

was

pretty scummy....

why havent you voted for him then?

No need to place someone at L-1 with the 5th post of the day.

lol yeah especially when hes your scum partner

Oh, now I'm scum? Why?

lets get rg lynched and the we'll deal with you scum

A wee bit later...

@Mozamis: Please answer why you think Bvoight is mafia?

Yeah, please answer this. Even if you don't think I'm mafia anymore, explain what your thought process was.

no i dont think i want to. Completely fair question. I shouldnt have mentioned it really-better for town if we concentrate on one scum at a time rather than the scum team. If we lynch rg and bvoigt still looks suspicious, I'll explain it.

That's what I was referring to.

[Vordark]

Loled at "Oh, the suspense!"

I haven't placed a vote because I was under the impression that we were waiting for RG to come back from V/LA.

Bvoigt is waiting for RG. Right now, I think RG is bait.

I can place it for you right now if you want... but it might as well be a random vote considering that we're probably looking at RG or moz getting lynched today.... neither of which is happening until both players answer a few questions.

When RG gets "back" (still unconvinced this isn't his "drop out of sight defense") he might be willing to say something useful, but Moz has had a

lot

of time to answer the questions put to him and the only response we've had is a scum list and a VT claim, both of which I find dubious. No discussion as to why bvoigt is scum and no explanation for why RG has gone from "If he's mafia I'll eat my left toenail" (post 141) to "I'm

positive

he's scum, kill him!". I don't think we're getting any more answers there than we already have.

[Vordark]

@Vordark: The only person Mozamis has'nt suspected is TWIE. For arguements sake assuming Moz is mafia he has bussed his partner sometime in this game - unless TWIE is his partner. Any thoughts on who?

I'd be looking at the people on the RG wagon now, which would be bvoigt and Thian. I'm still perplexed by some of the interchange between Thian and Moz on Day 1, and the relative lack of attention Thian seems to be giving Moz Day 2. And like I've said, this bvoigt as scum thing came out of nowhere. I think that's more about laying some shoddy groundwork for a Day 3 mislynch, but it could easily be a bus attempt in case the RG gambit goes nowhere and Moz gets the rope.

I'm not getting a scumvibe from TWIE. He's got his pick of the lynch right now and hasn't moved. It be really easy for him to drop a vote down now and pass it off as "We're going nowhere and a hammer gives us more information". I think he's a bit optimistic in believing we'll get any more information out of RG or Moz, but not dropping the hammer by now is something I think town is more likely to do.

[Vordark]

I'd like some detailed analysis from Vordark on what he thinks Maxous' scummiest posts have been.
I'd like some detailed analysis from Maxous on what he thinks Vordark's scummiest posts have been.
Thanks darlings

I'd like some detailed anything from you, apart from this obvious attempt to throw yet more baseless suspicion around.

[Vordark]

I'd like some detailed analysis from Vordark on what he thinks Maxous' scummiest posts have been.
I'd like some detailed analysis from Maxous on what he thinks Vordark's scummiest posts have been.
Thanks darlings

I'd like some detailed anything from you, apart from this obvious attempt to throw yet more baseless suspicion around.

Ok, so i have given you my thoughts. Now if you could both tell us your thoughts on each other? (Vordark and Max)

No, I will not be helping you throw wild suspicion around the room. You've put suspicion on everyone here at one point or another, typically when they are voicing suspicions of you. Thian isn't on your case now, so he's town. Now Maxous and I are voting you and we're a scumteam. Or one of us is. Now you're hedging and

actually defending

RG, who's bandwagon you've been gunning for

all of day two

, to cover your ass. You're also trying very hard to act all buddy-buddy with bvoigt, who you railed against as scum just a page or two ago.

No one's buying it. My vote stays on Mozamis.

[Vordark]

so, vordark wont answer my questions. after i have spent all game answering his questions. He's either scum, or being very unhelpful to town.

No, I won't answer your question, which is "Make a scum case against Maxous or you're totally scum". Also...

You don't understand. There is one scum amongst us whilst Rg is away. What scum wants us to do is to keep talking ,tie ourselves in knots ang get us to lynch someone before Rg gets back. If we maintain discipline and dont cast too many other suspicions etc, we won't lynch someone.

Just out of curiosity, how does asking Maxous and I for detailed cases against each other and your throwing random suspicions around the room help the town according to your own reasoning here on the previous page?

[Vordark]

who ever is scum -good job! (why is there no applause emoticon?)
I'm totally broken with this game.
Lynch me. Bolllocks to all of you.
may as well have an OMGUS vote before i go: Vordark, you are either an ABSOLUTE COCK, or good at playing scum

UNVOTE VOTE VORDARK

Good luck town
See you at the end of the game!

Nice rage quit, although the lack of a self-hammer as slamming the door makes this look like you're trying to stay in the game and just appealing to emotion to get you off the hook again.

If you had acted at all like town during this game my suspicion wouldn't be on you. That I am the most vocal in addressing what everyone else is also seeing makes me neither an "absolute cock" or "scum". Feel free to point out any actual errors in reasoning or other problems with my posts or case against you. If you had done that from the beginning instead of beating the "stop being mean to me" drum while saying "Nuh uh" and attacking everyone who expressed suspicion of you, maybe you wouldn't be at L-1 now. Stop taking the game personally.

[Vordark]

EBWOP: What Maxous said.

[Vordark]

Yeah...

I was surprised.

That's one way of putting it.

Moving on, this means somebody I previously thought to be town, is'nt. My initial thoughts is that this would be Thian because Vordark has seemingly being making the biggest effort to find the mafia(though I did'nt like his sudden switch to NS at the end of Day 1. *but* it does seem to fit in with what his approach to the game has been.) and I don't remember many scummy actions from TWIE, he seems town. Before voting of any sort, I will re-check the game.
RaudhrGarm's scummy actions still have'nt gone away and is my initial pick for lynching in this day period. Back with more when I actually re-read it!

Right now RG is my number one. The scumread I had on Moz combined with his

serious

driving of the bandwagon on him were the main points of my thinking RG was just lynch-bait. With Moz as town, this goes away and leaves us with the behavior that initially drew our attention to him.

I don't have as strong a read on Thian, but I still don't like his much earlier comment about Moz trying to end a day early. Some of his earlier reasoning seemed a bit off, but I found several of his posts difficult to read through anyway. He also applied the hammer, which always leaves me with raised eyebrows.

I've been largely neutral on TWIE for most of the time, slightly leaning town, but these posts here have me concerned...

Post #420...

On an.....ENTIRELY unrelated note

@mod I knew DDD was last scum.... wanted to see him pull it off.

Sorry for that.... back to the game at hand.

I know this is an "@mod" note, but it might be nice not to announce in the thread what sounds like "I totally blew a game for the town on purpose!" Why put this in the thread and not in a PM?

In #431, TWIE says that Thian "beat [him] to it", which I take to mean that TWIE intended to hammer Moz. Okay, but then we've got this in the very next post...

The thing is.... I've got this nagging doubt that moz is still going to flip town, but if he does then his play over the last few pages was particularly atrocious.

So, there's some crossed wires I'm not liking.

I've been leaning Maxous as town, but I want to read through the thread and his ISO again.

[Vordark]

Seeing as how our Mod was going to hold off ending the night until either RG had "returned" or a replacement was found, and that RG has not been replaced, I'm assuming RG is capable of posting here. It'd be

really

nice if we had some words from him, the sooner the better.

[Vordark]

Thian Vordark scum. Calling it.

Can you provide a case for why I'm scum?

Self-Hammering is NEVER good for town.

I didn't say it is. But it would have been a more convincing ragequit if he had. As it stood, it looked more like another attempt to gain sympathy and look town.

moz practically ragequit in his last post, dragging around another uninterested player all game (hi RG) didn't seem appealing. That coupled with his request for a stop of discussion late in the day is also cause for concern.

At the end of the day, he was acting anti-town, and probably deserved a hammer.

Still, that doesn't make him scum, which I expressed my concern for.

I don't know that I agree with the separation of anti-town tells vs. scum tells that you seem to present here. Related to the original point, those back to back twilight posts seem to present a contradiction. If you are saying that anti-town behavior deserves lynching irrespective of actual alignment, then at least that contradiction would be resolved.

Also, hardcore buddying here already from Max, Vordark... You want to really attempt an RG lynch now in lylo? That my be the worst idea ever, considering hes made 24 posts total. They also both consider each other town, thats super convenient. Might have to rescind my earlier call in response to actually reading those few posts.

I noted what could be considered buddying (I don't know where my personal definition of "buddying" falls yet). There are a few other Maxous-related things I want to take a closer look at once I have time to re-read the thread again, which I noted in my earlier post. I'd also point out that I've been "leaning Maxous as town". Saying I consider him town is a stronger statement than I have made. Regardless, I'm giving things another read.

No, I don't want to attempt a lynch on anyone right now, which is why I haven't put my vote down yet. I think RG is the most viable candidate, but there's a lot of time to discuss things. I think a big part of why we're here now is that we've had a lot of lurking coupled with ending the days early. That's a bad place to be in lylo.

To be absolutely clear, though, a big part of why RG is being looked at this hard is the fact that he's hardly posted anything. And what he has posted has been terrible. Putting that forward as a reason for him not to be lynched strikes me as nonsensical.

[Vordark]

Right... the dude that has been clearly confused about the workings of the game since it started is a good lynch in this weeks episode of Lylo.

While you have noted RG's "confusion" from relatively early on, you have also said this in post #335...

This BV, RG, thing is pretty interesting atm.... I'm pretty sure after posting.... "there, aren't clues?" there's no real way to claim that you didn't no there aren't any clues... but thats just me.

Before today, I just thought RG was really bad.... now hes starting to look like really scum.

Your opinion of RG seems to be shifting between confused noob, scum and anti-town. Can you explain exactly what your read of him is now and why you have it?

You wanna lynch him day 2 of lylo? I might listen. There is absolutely no way we are lynching RG today. There are 2 scum, and finding the one that has more posted material is probably more likely.

I do not want to lynch anyone right now, which I've already said. I want people here to get talking,

especially

RG because he is my number one due to behavior that even you have said was "starting to look like really scum".

Also, do you have a case for anyone? I asked you for a case against me because of your "calling it" but you haven't delivered yet. It would be nice if you made a case for your top suspects now.

[Vordark]

@RG

- You really need to join the conversation here. We're in lylo which means "lynch or lose". This means that if we fail to lynch scum today the town loses. It would be nice if everyone could come forward and participate.

[Vordark]

My case on you is this:

Not only have you been on every mislynch wagon... you also tunneled onto a townie all day, to the point of him ragequitting

To be fair, many other people have been on the mislynch wagons. In fact, we haven't had a successful lynch yet so I'd say the majority of people here have been so.

As for my "tunneling", everyone here had noted Moz's scummy behavior. I presented a case for it, highlighted multiple problems with what Moz was posting and backed every one of my statements with solid reasoning. I'm by far not the only one who was pointing an FoS in that direction. If there was a problem with my case, please show it to us. That he flipped town does not mean we shouldn't have acted as we did given the information we had.

I was thinking all week about who was going to be in lylo, and to be honest, I didn't think I was going to make it through the night.

...

This entire section here is huge WIFOM. The only people who know the reason the Mafia killed who they did is the Mafia. We can chase our tails for days and never get an actual answer as to why they took out bvoigt. As an example:

1. bvoigt was firm in wanting to lynch RG.
2. bvoigt was night-killed.
3. RG is Mafia.
4. The person most trying to stave off an RG lynch is TWIE
5. TWIE must be the second Mafia!

We can paint whatever picture we want to paint with WIFOM like that, so hypothesizing about why the scum killed one person and left another person around is useless.

Those last 2 quotes are the only thing that could be misconstrued as anything.... and there you come in post 2 of today slinging mud.

This is an overly-defensive way of characterizing what I wrote. Your posts concerned me and I noted it. I also noted precisely why they concerned me and questioned you. I am not "slinging mud".

You left RG because he's *still* lynch bait, you (and Maxous) have both expressed an interest in "Dealing with RG day 3", when clearly that is not to our best interests in lylo, in hopes of a quick mislynch.

In the case that that doesn't work, you have now laid the outer shell of the start of a case, based solely on my willingness to hammer an anti-town acting townie, who I wasn't sure was scum. .

This is still WIFOM. I've also made it clear that I am

not

looking for a quick lynch of any sort. You keep saying I am, so I'm calling this argument by repetition.

And again, you made several posts that struck me as strange. Questioning those posts is entirely reasonable. It is interesting to me that you are reacting the way you are to my questions.

And I would have the hardest time believing there were no mafia on this wagon... you know, the one that picked up 3 votes in 2 hours.

I'd like to note that this was the wagon RG hammered.

Do you have anything else to add to this case or is that it? Further, do you have any cases on anyone else that you would like to note?

I also want you to answer why you keep suggesting I want to have a quick lynch today, why you think that RG is not scum and why you are being so defensive about the questions I asked you earlier.

[Vordark]

But lets hear it.... whats your definitive case on RG other than that hes a habitual lurker who has contributed nothing other than a bad hammer.... I'll wait.

This is the case for RG as I see it:

1. He seemed really intent on getting Day One over quickly so we could get into the night phase. He claimed that this is because he was looking for "clues", but bvoigt already pointed out that this was a lie. RG was told, and acknowledged, there were no clues in this game well before he closed the deal on NS. Trying to end a day that early, and succeeding with a quick-lynch, is scummy.

2. The afore-mentioned lie. "Lynch all liars" is a policy for a reason. I'm not 100% I have this policy myself, but deception doesn't make things easier on the town in any way and lying to justify a quick hammer is scummy.

3. He has done zero scum hunting all game. No where in his 25 posts has he put forth a case, provided any detailed reasoning for or against someone, questioned anyone, etc. I would expect at least some scum hunting from a townie in that time. This goes beyond simply lurking and crosses the line into scum territory.

4. His self-claimed strategy of dealing with suspicion against him is to clam up and wait until it blows over. This is scummy behavior, not simply anti-town. Lurking is anti-town, going to ground when you're being looked at is scummy.

5. This last lurk is terrible. He knew he was staring down the barrel of a lynch, threw a vote at Mozamis then went MIA for a week. Assuming it's true that he really did have RL stuff happening, he's apparently back now and wants to stay in the game. The longer we go without a real post for him, the worse this looks.

I think he has appeared confused at times, but since that could be easily written off by him being new I haven't included it in the above. I

am

including the lie, because I do not believe any reasonable person can call that simply "confusion".

[Vordark]

You think you can definitively prove the guilt of someone in 24 posts?

Please stop misrepresenting what I am saying. I am saying that RG is the best candidate for scum. I put forward a case as to why. Do you have a comment regarding the actual case?

Moreso... you would rather do that than you would find the other (2) scum in the game?

How many scum do you think there are in the game? There are two in Newbie games. This statement from you then either means you're confused about how many scum we're hunting or that you are certain that RG is town. Please tell us which it is. If the latter, I'll ask you again to please give us your reasoning that RG is town.

I think RG is fucking terrible at this game, I think he either lied there, has little to no understanding of the english language, or has short term memory loss.... but at the same time; theres another (2) scum running around.

I still have the same questions as above. F11 setup has two scum. Saying there are two scum running around that are not RG is a strong statement that you believe RG is town.

I really don't believe that 3 people think that might be our best option. 2 I would believe.... but 3?

Please then, provide your reasoning for why you think RG is town or at least weigh in properly on what I've already written above. And if you have cases on anyone, please give us those too. Saying "Lynching RG is a horrible idea!" and giving us nothing else is not going to help us in lylo.

[Vordark]

I honestly.... could not give a fuck about the RG case. Dude has 24 posts, you literally aren't going to convince me that hes a better lynch right now than the other scum.

Then show us why someone, anyone, is a better lynch than RG. Once again, can you put forward a case on someone? You put a case forward on me, which I believe I have dealt with absent your bringing something new. Right now, you keep saying he's not the best lynch, but you're not giving us any reason. You are also not arguing against the case because you say you "could not give a fuck about" it. That is not helping us.

Yes Vordark.... the number 2 there is in parenthesis because I

think

that RG might not be as obv scum as you are trying to paint him. Not that

know

he's town. (Really.. again? Didn't Thian already try this day 2?) If i knew he was town then I would take the parenthesis out.

I am not trying to "paint him" as scum. I have put forward a case detailing why I think he is the best lynch candidate. Rather than continuing to misrepresent what I'm saying, address the case. That your opinion on RG has flip-flopped a fair amount this game, and that you seem adamantly opposed to lynching him under any circumstances today, coupled with your remarks here that you "don't

know

he's town" is not giving us a clear picture of just what you think of him.

Meaning, I think you and possibly Maxous, but more likely Thian are the remaining scum.

So who's not on that list? That would be you and RG. Again, why is RG not on this list? You refuse to address the case, don't put him on your scum list and refuse to lynch him today no matter what. Why?

I'd also like to know why I appear to be your number one. Is there something in your case against me that I did not respond to? Can you provide any more reasoning as to why I'm scummy?

I think RG looks scummy because he hasn't participated in anything this game, because he has, like you, been on both mislynches, and because he had a bad hammer, and day 4 might be a good day to take another look at him.

Wait, so now he is scummy? Can you see why you're being asked to clarify your position?

Fuck it tho.... You guys have 3 people... I would

LOVE

to be wrong about this. Lynch RG if you think thats the right thing to do.

And now you're saying "fuck it". Please actually address some of these points and put a case out there for the person/people you believe would make a better lynch candidate than RG.

And lets pretend he flips scum. Who do we look at then?

Right now, I'm beginning to wonder about you.

[Vordark]

Claim: Vanilla Town

[Vordark]

Alright then. Lets see if I can explain this to you. (Again)

I honestly have no idea if RG is town, scum, or whatever.

He has done, and I'm going to emphasize this for you:

NOTHING

that could possibly be described as helpful to the town. <------

NOTHING

That being said, he STILL looks like lynch bait to me. But nobody seems interested in the other scum that has to be in the game.

I am taking this, and your remark below that the chance of RG being scum is high, to mean that you are neutral/leaning scum on RG. If I am wrong, please correct me.

And I am absolutely interested in finding the other scum today. That is why I am asking that people put their cases forward and clarify their reasoning for why they believe one person is scum or another person is town.

The other, (1 if RG is indeed scum) (2 if he is not) active scum, with, content filled posts that might, if anyone was willing to look over the first obvious lynch, provide a better chance at a lynch than our habitual lurker.

How high is the chance that RG is scum? It's fairly high. But how are you going to question someone who doesn't post? If RG is scum.... then he will STILL be around tomorrow.

And we could have a discussion about the other scum, rather than the first, obvious choice, we need them both to win.

I think any discussion at this point is good discussion.

Regarding RG, he's posting! There's some WIFOM in that first post, not a lot else that moves him either way on my meter, but I'd like to comment on this...

[quote="RaudhrGarm"Re-reading the posts in an effort to catch up, you do strike me as a bit Mafian. You really created the huge anti-Mozamis case [understandable], and have been very active when it comes to targeting people.[/quote]

I'm trying to figure out why putting forth an "understandable" case against Mozamis, and actively scum hunting strikes you as being a bit "Mafian".

[Vordark]

@Vordark: Do you think TWIE is RG's partner or a misled townie?

I don't have a solid opinion yet on who RG's partner would be. I think TWIE's suspicion of me has come out of nowhere and he has not presented anything I could call reasoning other than I made a case against an incredibly-scummy player who flipped town. He has also been overly-defensive since the start of Day Three.

[Vordark]

@Maxous: I'd say Vordark is scum, but I don't know who his partner is. Of course he could be over-zealous as well.

Do you have an actual case for this, or is this more of the same?

[Vordark]

I think Vordark attempted to buddy with you because he was hoping for the RG lynch you mentioned.

Wow. Let's run today down so far.

I point out a few of TWIE's posts that I have questions about, including the @mod post where he claims to have intentionally blown a game for the town. What do we get back? I'm at the top of his scum list, partnered with everyone but him and RG. He puts forward what I consider a weak case, which I address, and refuses to answer my questions for either further clarification of his position on me or his thoughts on the other players.

Now we've got RG following along with the same exact reasoning TWIE put forward, calling me top of the scum list for, in his own words, putting forth an "understandable" case on Mozamis and being active in the thread trying to hunt scum.

I'm thinking RG and TWIE scumteam is seeming much more likely now.

[Vordark]

@Vordark: Do you think TWIE is RG's partner or a misled townie?

I don't have a solid opinion yet on who RG's partner would be. I think TWIE's suspicion of me has come out of nowhere and he has not presented anything I could call reasoning other than I made a case against an incredibly-scummy player who flipped town.

He has also been overly-defensive since the start of Day Three.

Oh? Have I now?

Your comments that I was "mudslinging", etc. would be evidence of being overly-defensive when I was bringing up your posts.

Or have I just been defensive of another player, attempting to, once again prevent a townie mislynch?

I think as a separate point you've been defending RG pretty hard but providing nothing in the way of hunting the other scum, except for putting me as your top suspect partnered with anyone but you and RG. Again, do you have a case for me as scum? Do you have a case for anyone else as scum? All you've had to offer here is WIFOM and the fact that I pushed a case against a

very

scummy player that ended up flipping town.

[Vordark]

You've been topping my scum list for a while now actually.

Back it with a case.

[Vordark]

RG! Unvote! WTF!?!

[Vordark]

VOTE: Vote: Vordark

I'm really comfortable with my first pick, here.

[Vordark]

First off, I am smelling too much urgency here. We have three weeks before the day has to end. Nearly every post I'm making gets interrupted because at least one new post is out there. We do not need to rush this and we do not need to throw a vote down on anyone yet. I've already said there's been too much ending the day early and not enough discussion.

Second, that vote was horrible and I want to know TWIE's reaction to it. You can't say RG wasn't very clearly warned not to vote. You can't say it wasn't very clearly noted that we're in lylo. Are you still calling me and one of Maxous or Thian scum?

Finally, let me be clear that if there are any questions or problems concerning the case I put forth on Mozamis, you should be putting them out here now. That a scummy player flipped town is not reason to mindlessly go after the people who called him scummy. Everyone in the game had noted Mozamis was scummy. RG was first to vote him. TWIE posted in twilight that he was going to hammer him but Thian beat him to it. That it's being said that the one person who actually put forward some clear reasoning that could be thoroughly looked at and challenged is scummy is absurd.

[Vordark]

So, the battle lines are pretty clearly drawn here I think....

Vordark, Thian

RG, Me...

Maxous holding the divider.

How you leaning Maxous?

Why are you pushing Maxous to take a "side"?

[Vordark]

@Maxous: Can you give us your top two and why?

[Vordark]

I'm still

FoS: RaudhrGarm

. I think TWIE is his most likely scum partner at this point.

I am still willing to read and discuss any actual cases people have for or against anyone.

[Vordark]

Sorry. "What else has changed?

And I flip flopped?"

was me....copy pasting fail.

As time moves forward and information is gained, you believe that opinions should not be revised? Regardless, I addressed the points in your second post already. Moz as scum made RG town because I did not believe there was a bus attempt in action. Moz as town still leaves RG as scummy as ever.

And yes, you have been back and forth on RG quite a lot. You've strongly implied he's town, called him lynch bait more than once, called him anti-town, strongly leaned scummy on him, back to obvtown. I would call that flip-flopping.

Next, that we're in lylo might be a really good reason to take our time with a decision. More so than the primary object of suspicion deciding to go MIA for a week at the precise moment he's been questioned.

And finally, how about you actually put a case down on me since you've thought I was scum "for quite a while" now and I'm still your number one. I've asked quite a few times for some actual reasoning from you, but so far I haven't seen anything that I haven't already covered.

[Vordark]

Why is, RG looks like a noob town that moz is trying to get quick lynched... A valid accusation on day 2

and RG looks like a noob town that Vordark is trying to get quick lynched, not on day 3?

So you're back to claiming I'm trying to quick lynch someone.

FoS: TWIE

There's a point at which you need to offer up some actual, rational discussion. You've been beating the same drums without any sticks long enough for me, despite my repeated requests for true debate.

I'm comfortable calling RG/TWIE scum team.

[Vordark]

@Maxous and Thian:

How confident are the two of you in RG & TWIE as scum? Is there

anything

that you guys want addressed that hasn't been brought up already?

[Vordark]

@Maxous: If you do not believe you need any further discussion, put your vote down and I'll drop the hammer. I am satisfied at this point, but I want to know we're

all

on the same page before I place my vote on RG.

[Vordark]

Because honestly... before I defended him, everyone here thought I was townish, were I scum (with RG) I woulda rode that train into 2v1.

What would be the point in defending a scum buddy that everyone else thought was scum?

It is not that you just defended him, for me. It is the fact that you are using an obvious chainsaw defense by trying to put suspicion on me. If I saw that you had a case, I would certainly discuss it and try to follow your reasoning. But you have not put forth a good case, you have not discussed your reasoning. You have only been arguing through repetition and ignoring repeated requests for rational debate.

[Vordark]

Vote: RG

[Vordark]

Great Game!

Scared the shit out of me TWIE. lol

Thanks to everyone here!

[Vordark]

Maxous winces at making the wrong decision

Ugh, that's an understatement :/

Good game Thian and Vordark. I would'nt of even voted Vordark on day 4. You had me completely fooled.
You done well at the end TWIE...but I was way too convinced of Garm
Shit, lol. Oh well

Wow. Thanks for that!

And yeah, TWIE busting out his call of Thian and Me had me just about shit a brick. Thian had noted his FoSing of him as a point of concern when discussing the night kill and I'm like "No, keep him in, bvoigt's better choice". I wanted to punch myself in the junk earlier today.

[Vordark]

Yes, thank you Crazy! Loved the game.

[Vordark]

I think Thian and I had a few close calls. I made a few mistakes (which I won't be sharing), but some things here made it really hard for the town:

1. I think Mozamis is probably a swell guy in real life. He does have a juicy British pop star for an avatar, afterall. But he was way too easy to get going. I feel like i have to go to confession after drilling there so hard, and I actually wanted to focus on RG day two, but with Mozamis turning worse and worse I had to switch off in that direction or it would have raised too much suspicion. Thian and I talked about that in the QT. We both wanted Mozamis around for Day Three since we thought he would be much easier to FoS or lead around.

2. The IC lurking was seriously shitty for you guys. I understand that NS had a lot of other games going on, but a lurking IC kills Newbie games.

3. Lurking in general. We had three, maybe four people hardcore lurking for most of Day One. That's pretty hideous in a nine-person game.

4. Trendall made me really nervous day one. Thian and I decided to gamble on taking him out even though it could open a huge "Why'd the Mafia kill him?" shit storm. Look back through what he posted in the thread. Thian and I were figuring out some WIFOM arguments because we were sure you guys would call us on it.

5. TWIE got really scary today.

6. bvoigt was being too reasonable and cautious on Day Two for my liking. My motto going into Day 3 was "Exterminate All Rational Thought".

7. I had fun playing with each and every one of you. Don't take anything I said here or in the QT too seriously.

[Vordark]

also vordark. you did really well in my opinion, and kinda held it pretty much together. Glad to have had a good scum partner in you.

Thanks! And it was awesome working with you for my first game!

[Vordark]

This post... plus the QT makes me very happy

I said you were scary.

[Vordark]

lol@TWIE's new sig!

@bvoigt: Well if I had known TWIE was going to pull out what he did, you'd probably still be here. When I saw him drop what he did I'm like "Fuck! Thian's going to kill me. Why didn't we keep bvoigt! Now *we're* going to get quick lynched!"

@Trendall: Yeah, where'd you get the RG/bvoigt vibe?

[Vordark]

@bvoigt: It wouldn't have made your life easier. Thian and I chose to block him every night. I was Roleblocker in this game.

[Vordark]

...Thats right... Why didn't I point out that I would know the numbers....

I hadn't FoS'd you at that point. In fact, at that point I was so "WTF!?!" that my goal was just to keep you talking and pray some material came out that I could use.

You guys have no idea how fucked I thought we truly were here, and how many times I went outside for a smoke and a walk around the block today so there would be less of a chance of my writing out something knee-jerk that could be easily called. lol

[Vordark]

hahaha did you really go out for a smoke? When Maxous put his vote down, I was like ohh I pray pray pray vordark would be around to see this. I kept refreshing periodically from work.

lol, quite a few actually. I was pretty glued to the screen otherwise.

The worst thing today was, I posted, then I went to see a man about a horse, came back and saw RG's vote of me. I was like "But all I wanted to do was

PEE

!"

[Vordark]

ah haa haa. when I saw RG's vote. I was frozen. everything slowed down and all I could hear was. "Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo"

LMAO! I just had that scene in Zoolander go through my head where Stiller is running toward the car where his friends are playing with the gasoline as the guy lights a cigarette.

"Where did we go so horribly wrong!?!"

Have to say thanks again everyone for a fun game!

[Vordark]

I don't know why I didn't put it down but at the time I was like..... Your entire theory right now is of RG scum.... if you actually believed that you would know that his and his scumbuddies vote couldn't lynch you without a third...

I was hoping to take this in a different direction if it came up, but yeah, calling me on this would have been good. I think if you weren't posting with such urgency, and if you had been more diligent in pointing out things that were issues for you throughout the game, it would have been much more difficult to paint you as scum today.