Newbie 1068 (Town Wins!)

[RayFrost]

1) No. There is no fun in mafia. It's

srsbznz

. No fun allowed.

2) Once you go black, you never go back.

3) Too many to count. 50+

4) No, lynch all scum.

5) Math is a sport, so trick question.

6) Lynch all scum.

7) Vote: NobodySpecial

[RayFrost]

OP: 9/10 would read again.

Vote: Shanman

}|{opa = town, you are voting town, so you are scum.

[RayFrost]

I have an avatar. Fool.

[RayFrost]

2/2 people who have seen my avatar approve.

[RayFrost]

NOICE AVI BREW

3/3 people now.

[RayFrost]

I have an avi. In all seriousness.

[RayFrost]

Besides, I'm auto-unique in having a small avi.

[RayFrost]

I'm not trolling, now hush and vote scum with me.

[RayFrost]

Who are you, again? /nomemory

You confirmed yourself as scum by trying to bribe my vote off of you. I shall not be fooled.

[RayFrost]

Unvote, vote: shanman

Unvote, vote: nobodyspecial[/n]

Unvote, vote: kcdaspot

[RayFrost]

oh. NOW your trolling. get your vote back to where it was or suffer.

Actually, I think you're scum.

[RayFrost]

I shall inform you all as to my genius deductions regarding scum/town/etc after everybody has clocked in when I am next online after this time.

[RayFrost]

Also, nobodyspecial is town. So is }|{opa.

[RayFrost]

Shan: I played terribly that game. I'm actually much improved (though I'm not going to show my improvement until everybody's posted).

For starters, my }|{opa/NS reads are for [redacted], but my kcd read is for [different redacted]. I'm sure NS has me all figured out.

[RayFrost]

There is no limit for when we are talking serious. There is no set page # that makes it "srs bznz" over "yayhappyfuntime." I'll expand upon my thoughts after everybody's tuned in. Until then, I won't be posting much.

[RayFrost]

I'm happy to hear that this will be a more fruitful game! I'm sorry for kind of... trying to lynch you last game? No hard feelings, right?

Also, just to let you know, I "unredacted" your redactions and found them unsatisfactory. Please try again, and find better reasons to redact.

I'll give you a hint. The abbreviation of my username is also the abbreviation for the technique I am employing. I'll say no more on the matter until the entire playerlist (or most of it) has commented.

[RayFrost]

he's talking about ongoing games...

but to my knowledge he wasn't in mine... i could be wrong.

Who do you mean? I'm not talking about any ongoing games.

[RayFrost]

I won't need to save it for after this game ends. Only after everybody posts.

[RayFrost]

Am I misreading this post KC? It sounds like you've just said "actually, on better thought, don't explain your thought process on your reads until after the game is over." Is that not what you just posted? If so, town I implore you to ask yourself. What would a Townie have to gain, by asking somebody else to not explain what they find scummy or townie. Then compare that to what a Mafia Scum would have to gain by people being silent about their reasonings.

You misread him. Even I read what he said to be based on the assumption that what I was talking about was referenced to an ongoing game, as he had that misconception. To believe taht he was trying to keep me from stating my reasoning for any other reason would be overly ealous, even though he's still scum.

[RayFrost]

As I said. }|{opa is town. Over-thinking-things-a-lot-town, but still town.

There's a bit of ill logic in that: scum would want to confirm later to extend their pre-game convos not confirm faster to shorten them

if they were attempting to manipulate their time period at all

. That theory is flimsy.

The IC saying that he will not lie about proper gameplay but is still a player in this game is actually informatin that's supposed to be stated by every IC (and generally is), so it's null at best. I could break down what you said even further, but there's no point: you are town and voting scum.

[RayFrost]

NS, explain what you got out of your questions nao pl0x.

[RayFrost]

RF. You should know this by now. I loathe RVS, so I ask questions. It stimulates discussion.

That's all.

Besides, it's crucial to know who my fellow chocoholics are.

I find myself believing that asking questions itself doesn't stimulate much in the way of discussion unless you want to start conversations about how scummy it is for people to like vanilla stuff....

[RayFrost]

@RF: A) I have no idea what you're on about. 2) Now you're going to have me awake at night figuring out what other thing RF stands for. d) We aren't currently in a game together, so there goes that theory.

Pro-tip: it (the second word) rhymes with wish.

[RayFrost]

Wingdamage and fatso are the only ones left to not have posted. I guess I'll reveal my masterful plan and genius skills, then.

What I've been doing is the art of Reaction Fishing.

[RayFrost]

Reaction Fishing is the use of insane / ridiculous / not really practical arguments or statements to draw out or fish for reactions from players. Based upon the reactions, you can get reads on alignments and motives.

[RayFrost]

...

if that was a vote there would have been hell to pay..

avi trolls don't deserve rope. vote hoppers do.

Now, kcd I actually felt was scummy for this post.

He essentially went "if you change your vote, you're scummy" - this kind of generic cover all type logic makes it really, really easy to switch your *own* vote around while excusing yourself frm suspicion. It's one of those mud slinging type moves that's highly suspect.

Neil's postings re: kcd and the ease with which he agrees wit shanman over something I feel is actually rather minor makes me less at ease with my initial confidence that kcd is scum, but kcd's own posting towards me reads like early-pressured scum not sure on how to react.

I'm probably reading too much into the posting, but sue me, it's my job.

From the reactions surrounding my play, I felt shanman was townish and neil was slightly scummy. NS is actually a null read for me, but }|{opa is most definitely townish.

[RayFrost]

I suppose I should let the IC explain this, but I think I might know. Usually the way to sort this out is with RQS and RVS. These allow for a bit of conversation, in which the Mafia might slip up. It can be used to see how people interact, as opposed to trying to analyze a night kill, which can be difficult, confusing, and very wifom.

In any game that I've seen so far, there was never a voluntary no lynch.

To clarify:

No lynch on D1 is summarily a Bad Idea^TM in most games (there are no exceptions I can come up with off the top of my head), as it does not provide much in the way of information. When you lynch an individual, town or scum, people are forced to take stances regarding the person, there's interactions and connective information. Did this person really have a case on the lynched individual? Was the person off the lynch trying to avoid a town lynch or did they truly believe in their case? Did they push it? Was this person too defensive when he was being pressured?

Even if a townie is lynched D1, the town still benefits with the gift of information. Because of this, town aligned players should not feel

too

survivalist.

There are situations where no lynch is a good idea, though. In newbie games, for example, town should no lynch when they've lynched one scum and they are currently at 4 players: 3 town, 1 scum (also known as mylo or mislynch and lose) or when there's 6 players with 2 scum and 4 town (also a mislynch or lose situation). The no lynch is good because, after scum kill someone, there's one fewer scum possibility, meaning town has a higher chance of lynching correctly.

[RayFrost]

I guess that makes sense, but seeing as I haven't noticed a major slip up, and any vote I place for a player would only have a 22.2% chance of being a Scum (based on the assumption that I'm not a Mafia, one which I'm willing to make), I don't see it as ideal for me to vote for someone. If anything noticeable hinky happens, I would be liable to change it.
Also, I'm generally wrong, but seldom in doubt. So I'm probably wrong.

You shouldn't be overly worried about lynching correctly. The town's greatest source of information is lynching, the interactions around the lynch, and the discussion it generates. Lynches are town's only controllable, reliable source of information, so lynching is key to winning. By not lynching, you effectively reduce the chance of hitting scum to 0%, making lynching a superior option even with the low odds.

[RayFrost]

NS: content please.

[RayFrost]

To be honest, with Fatso originally wanting the No Lynch, he's made about the only scum-like action I've seen so far. As NS pointed out, we need to get information somehow, threatening people with the noose tends to be remarkably effective, particularly when they go into Flail Mode. Kcd is a bit suspicious as well, but still...

FOmS: Kcdaspot

VOTE: Fatso

Being inexperienced is not scummy. Simply put, the idea of no lynch comes from a misunderstanding of actuality that isn't scummy. Fatso's not scum, just a newbie learning the ropes.

[RayFrost]

}|{opa: How did you miss the fact that scum gets nighttalk? you are a "mafia scum" vet (it says this RIGHT UNDER your name). and same post you look... apathetic.
latest post i can't read right.

VOTE: "Jora"

for all kinds of weird vibes.

"Mafia scum" just means the total number of posts. I had the mafia scum title after my

first

game, IIRC. It doesn't say anything about actual experience, and appealing to experience as the reason to find someone scummy is poor.

[RayFrost]

Quick question here: you CAN claim to be a certain role in a post, right? I thought I read differently somewhere, but that wouldn't make much sense, and like I said I'm having problems remembering things right now.

You can claim your role, but it isn't suggested. If you're VT (Vanilla Townie), no one will believe you. If you're cop or doctor, you become a target. If you're mafia... well, you can feel free to claim.

If you FALSE claim, then you get lynched because you have no good reason to do that. At least, 99.9% of the time you have no good reason.

Correction.
When you claim your role, you should not be claiming with the expectation that it will save you from the noose if you are soon to be hung. The time when you are to claim in this type of situation is when you are L-N (as in N votes away from being lynched) and there are N people calling for your claim that are not currently on the wagon.

The reason we claim when near-lynch is to allow information roles (doc/cop) to claim their "results" / to get the possibility of someone confirming them / as a general good practice.

For claiming outside of when you are close to being lynched, it's generally done when you have IMPORTANT AS HELL information. Like a cop with a guilty on two scum in a newbie game. There's other instances that require personal judgment, ec, etc but this isn't something you really need to go into.

As town in a newbie game, you should

not

fake claim. Ever. It will, at best, ruin your credibility when you claim your real role and, at worst, get you lynched for it. Outside of newbie games, there are very limited circumstances where fakeclaiming as town is wise, and even I'm not sure when these would be.

[RayFrost]

ray: null but not for lack of content VERY slight lean to town due to his recent posts. I posted my response to your case, can you read it?

If you mean to say this is your reply, I'll just go ahead and say it doesn't really break anything in my issue. "I thought he had voted you" - on page 2, it's scummy to switch votes... why? I fail to see your logic for finding it to be a "HELL TO PAY" situation. It's an over defensive action on someone that you are also aggressive towards (me), which feels like a contradiction in the very fabric of your play.

[RayFrost]

TWENTY-FIVE POSTS and you haven't seen ANY of them?

Vote: Fatso

SEVEN POSTS and you aren't commenting on much in ANY of them?

Unvote, Vote: Nobody Special

[RayFrost]

Hm. Rayfrost is your scumbuddy/coach? Nice to know, I'll be sure to remember it. You claimed scum by being the first scummy person. If another case pops up, I may change my mind.

Buzz. To fix a newbie's ignorance isn't coaching. Your assumption tat anybody that disagrees with you is scum is just pitifully bad. I'm defending him because the case on him is crap. He's a newbie, not scum, at this point. All he's done is proven his ignorance of "proper" play, just as you've proven you have pretty much not read the thread at all by stating there's "no other cases" when there's been ~3 others at minimum that I remember just from me alone.

[RayFrost]

Max: the QT link is given in the role PM, and the partner could easily PM fatso about it if necessary, so to assume that scum did not commune pre-game is a foolish assumption.

[RayFrost]

Not replying to people's response to your attack on fatso and instead making a shallow defense against

one person

that's called you scummy is scummy.

FoS: WD9001

- suspicion level is OVER 9000!

NS needs to reply to what I've said to him, though.

[RayFrost]

Thought I'd replied to that, but I see I haven't yet.

1. Not really scum motivated, and that's not what I said. Misrepresentation is scum motivated. Apologizing for it is null.

2. The

ease in which you did so

on a

minor

point without really going into more depth is my issue. Reads like an attempt to strengthen an argument without really devoting to it.

[RayFrost]

TWENTY-FIVE POSTS and you haven't seen ANY of them?

Vote: Fatso

SEVEN POSTS and you aren't commenting on much in ANY of them?

Unvote, Vote: Nobody Special

[RayFrost]

Comparing high noise AND signal to low noise and signal is kinda pointless: the ratio's going to be similar, but one's still less pro-town than the other.

[RayFrost]

Comparing high noise AND signal to low noise and signal is kinda pointless: the ratio's going to be similar, but one's still less pro-town than the other.

... What?

^This^ I didn't get what you were saying at all...

NS excused his relative lack of content with a similar lack of noise as a contrast to my noise, and I was stating that I have content matching my noise whereas NS really

doesn't

didn't have either.

[RayFrost]

Unvote, Vote: Neil

I'd break down his case completely, but I'd like to give shanman the opportunity. For now, be settled for the fact I typed it up in its totality and then cut it out of this post, leaving only the vote.

[RayFrost]

It's only gut; I don't really have much to bolster it with, but I really think Shanman is scum. Now, he's buddying pretty hard to Ray; it's unclear at this point whether Shan is just dumb (and RF is scum too) or Shan is cleverly buddying to a perceived power role.

Anyway,

Vote: Shanman

Can you quote a single post where shanman buddies up to me? I've iso'd him and not found

any

instances of it.

[RayFrost]

Screw my theory about Wing being "to scummy to be scum." His last post is just plain ridiculous:

Vote: WingDamage9001

What's ridiculous about it? I want to hear more from people who are lurking. That's how you find scum.

If someone's said all they can say, hearing more from them is worthless. Why did you target max over NS, fatso, or [insert other people]? Max is hardly someone with the

lowest

quantity of content.

[RayFrost]

It's still buddying if it's in the early rvs-level stages with nobody posting and some have-played-together-before banter? Awesome tell, I should use it on ether and incog / dram and reck whenever they joke around, then.

[RayFrost]

I'm happy to hear that this will be a more fruitful game! I'm sorry for kind of... trying to lynch you last game? No hard feelings, right?

Also, just to let you know, I "unredacted" your redactions and found them unsatisfactory. Please try again, and find better reasons to redact.

This also doesn't read as buddying to me.

First bit is "sorry for mislynching you last game ;P" - I guess I can believe this might be buddying, but it's a stretch.

Second bit is actual in game content where he says "provide reasoning, dammit" - hardly buddying.

[RayFrost]

To that second point it could be construed as coaching, I thought.

Then I read more. and found out that that would mean that Shanman would in fact be coaching ray.

If I remember correctly wasn't shanman from way before? and he stated as much in thread...

I predate shanman.

I am more eperience than shanman.

Shanman has never seen my scum play, only my town lurker too busy to really be in the game play.

Magic eight ball says: concentrate and try again.

[RayFrost]

Hmmmm?

I'm not defending myself - nobody's even stated a case or reasoning on me before you just now. Everybody's just gone "shanman + ray connectionzzz!!!!1!!one!"

Needless to say, connections between two living players as logic for finding scum is flimsy in its own right, but I actually have full fledged reasoning for finding you scummy based upon the sheer inadequacy of your case on shanman.

I haven't been called out for buddying, shanman has. Your logic for me is still purely based upon my disagreement regarding the faillogic on the shanman wagon, but you are misrepresenting the situation to make it seem disconnected while still using connective reasoning as the end result.

[RayFrost]

I didn't say you were scum. I said it's funny how you quickly came to defend him, when you seemingly weren't around for a couple days. It's just ironic, and weird how you showed up to defend him so quickly. Besides, I also find it weird how you think my logic is faulty, yet refuse to explain why. Until you explain why, you can't clearly call it faulty or you're giving off the impression that you're just a hypocrite defending your scum partner, which is why you look scummy to me. I don't see the town motivation in saying "Neil has faulty theories! Oh... but I won't tell you... yet. "

Sooo... you'd prefer if I made shanman's defense for him? I might be

completely wrong

on how to properly do this (and our IC can let me know about proper play), but I'm pretty sure that you don't completely break down a case on someone before the person gets a chance to do so if only for the fact that you want to avoid letting them simply agree with your arguments. Juuust saying.

Fact of the matter is, I find the very smooth transition of suspicion here to be alarming: the focus shift was essentially "WD IS SCUM!" and then "SHANMAN/RAY CONNECTIONS!" without a single look back. This kind of shift makes me leery in tandem with the rather crappy basis on which the suspicion is made - connection between two living players (in the case of NS' vote) and your misrepresentative case.

[RayFrost]

}|{opa's reasoning is terrible.

Tells are the source of lynching even on D1. You just have to read carefully and fin them just like every other day. Lynching based upon some semi-random basis is not an effective use of the lynch, which is meant to raw out sances from people and content in he aim of creating contradictions, etc.

[RayFrost]

Also, explain to me how I'm misrepresenting the situation by my previous post. Just in case, here were my points.

1. He's quiet until... Shanman (His partner?) gets questioned.

Were you not quiet for DAYS until he was questioned? Or am I wrong?

2. He gets called out for buddying, and his only defense is (I don't see it as buddying and besides, I'm more experienced.) which doesn't suit well with me at all. I promise Ray, when Shanman is lynched and flips scum, you'll be next.

Did you give a defense other than what was stated that I may have overlooked? If so correct me, if not then you can't tell me I'm misrepresenting anything.

First point: misrepresentative in that

pretty much everybody in the game

was idle for the three days I was. The way you state this is as if I'd just be sitting back and lurking while the town was posting up a storm in the two days I didn't post.

I didn't get called out for buddying, and I disagreed with them being buddying and said

why

. NS never replied to my why and just went "See, Ray, this is

true

reaction fishing." My saying I am more experienced was a

direct reply to kspot

thinking that shanman's a more experienced player as logic for finding coaching tells.

I don't need to state a different/larger defense for you to be misrepresenting things. You just need to not be considering the entire context of the situation. The way you are selectively ignoring context

consistently throughout your posting

to explain your scum reads is my issue with you. The post that really stuck out to me was your most quote-filled, which was your shanman case. After shanman posts a reply, I can copy and paste what I type up and sent to myself in a PM (the post I mentioned cutting away).

[RayFrost]

I didn't get called out for buddying, and I disagreed with them being buddying and said why.

but given that logic i could see a shan and ray scum team.

Now, he's buddying pretty hard to Ray; it's unclear at this point whether Shan is just dumb (and RF is scum too) or Shan is cleverly buddying to a perceived power role.

Really Ray? Really?

Take them as two separate statements:

I didn't get called out for buddying [by kcdaspot]. (true: he just said he saw a shan/ray team)

I disagreed with them [NS' posts] being buddying and said why. (true: do I need to link and quote the posts?)

[RayFrost]

2nd.

He seems to keep referring scum motivated techniques.

On 6 different occasions, he actually brought it up. See examples below

I hate this whole (OMG YOU ARE TOTALLY MISREPRESENTING ME) argument. It's not unique, or original, and it's not a good defense. Especially when the line of questioning wasn't what CONTEXT you were talking about scum in, it was the fact that you were TALKING about them, and HOW MUCH you were talking about it. What is scummy, is not the context you were talking about scum in. I never made an argument concerning your logic behind every post individually, my argument is against your motivation to keep looking at scum thinking and talking about scum thinking

MORE

then you are town thinking and logic. THAT is my issue. Now, if you'd like to debate against THAT issue, feel free to. Otherwise, please stop with the "No, YOU!" defense, or in other words the OMGUS defense, even though you aren't technically voting for me.

Ray, I'll respond to you after this post.

Sooo... "talking about scum a lot is scummy." By this logic, you are scum for mentioning the word scum so many times in your posts, zomfg. You are talking a lot about scum.

By the by, can you point out where

you

are talking more about town-thinking and logic than scum-thinking and logic? I'm falling short on the search there.

Context is key when considering any points. If

most of the people in the game are talking about scum motivations

, why are you singling out shanman in particular? Pretty much the major part of finding scum is looking for scum motivations, so shan's sharing of this information (as in the information that scum tend to be motivated to do certain things) is, at most, null.

Also: nice not really responding to what I said in general.

[RayFrost]

I shall now break neil's "case" on shanman apart.

Wow. I can't believe I missed this. Might I call everyone's attention to

Shanman.

1st. Notice how he's scum hunted very, very little. His posts consist mostly of fluff, agreeing with someone, or discussing the general context of the game (well Scum would, etc. Well Town would, etc.) Which brings me to my next point.

In contrast to your amazing example of pro-active scumhunting by breaking down select sections of his posting to try and highlight them as scummy without considering the whole? I feel shan's at most neutral for this, considering the small number of scumhunting individuals in this game, and he's actually been giving stances, which not everybody has.

2nd. He seems to keep referring scum motivated techniques. On 6 different occasions, he actually brought it up. See examples below:

1 -

1) Having fun yet? Of course! I'm having a wonderful time pondering who we're going to be killing tonight... What a fun thing to do! [/sarcasm]

"Scum motivated technique" how exactly? It's a joke. Jokes aren't scum motivated techniques.

2 -

The only people who should lie are the scum.

Him correcting people regarding lying as town is hardly referring to scum mtivated techniques. Deliberate misrepresentation is deliberate.

3-

However it would clearly benifit the scum because they would be at no risk for a day.

4 -

Apparently being a part of the mafia is a good thing...

5 -

If you're mafia... well, you can feel free to claim.

6-

This can either be scum pretending to not know anything about how scum works, or a newbie proving he's town by not having any idea how scum works.
The scum are the informed minority. They know what's going on.

7 -

If someone is pushing a particularly weak or flimsy case on someone, he/she could be scum trying to look like they're doing stuff.

I find it weird how often he talked about scum and what scum would do, in comparison to the

three times

I saw him mention townie motivated things. And can someone tell me that this persons next post does not seem like scum probably leading scum?

With all the fluff going on through his posts, it's more likely everyone will forget he's part of the game then an actual scum hunter. I know I did.

VOTE: Shanman

I can cover all of these.

3 - refer to 2, but change the "lying as town" to "no lynching as town"

4 - ... how is this a "scum motivated technique"

5 - read 4

6 - Read 5 and add the fact this is shanman

taking a stance

on something.

7 - This is pointing out that bad cases may come from scum. Read 4 again.

Very few of your pointed out things actually are "scum techniques" so you are completely wrong. Bad case based upon false logic is scum-tell.

[RayFrost]

I think I see wifom.

f we want to find scum, it's important to note when we find something that a scum would do in this situation. Fatso voted for a no lynch. This was clearly a bad move for the town. I noted that fact for the town

Would I have been not so scummy if I had said that "Town members don't vote for No Lynches, particularly on the first day" rather than "Scum would benefit more from a no lynch right now"?

This isn't wifom, it's a valid point. He's not saying "I would/wouldn't have done this if I were town / scum / a flying pumpkin that shoots laser beams out of its ass" but, rather, "would you have found me less scummy for saying the

exact same thing

with different wording?"

[RayFrost]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shanman

/barn everyone. Generally scummy play, I'd like to hear a better defense.

Second scum found. GG all.

[RayFrost]

Instead of going through your opinionated case against me, since opinion can argue opinion all day I'll leave that out. To put it simply, Shanman is the only one who's caught my attention with the amount of "Scum" talk that he's portrayed. It's not about how many times you say scum, like Oompa Loompa (Opa, whatever) over here mocked me with earlier on in his post, it's about the mind set in which you talk about the game. The point in catching scum, which Ray I would hope you'd understand this, is figuring out are they posting because their role title says town, or scum? You can judge that, by the mindset in which they approach the game. 99% of people play differently when they have different roles. The few that don't are either ingenious, or VI's. And please explain to me, if you believe you've "caught" the 2nd scum, who did you "catch" as the 1st scum? I do hope you're not referring to me, because 1. I'm not scum. 2. I'm not scummy. And 3. You're relatively opinionated case isn't one that could even be refuted without basically saying "nunh unh! You're wrong!"

So you're just going to dismiss everything I've said as opinion rather than even trying to reply to even the questions in my posts.

Also: mindset? Earlier, you were saying it's more how focused he is on "scum motivated techniques" and then it was "how often he mentions scum" and now it's generic "mind set in which you talk about the game." Is it just me, or has your backing for what you've said and what you think is scummy changed as people disagree with you? [Pro-tip: someone other than neil should reply to this]

True, people do approach the game differently, but you've yet to actually explain how what he's posted comes from a scum mindset, only that it does. You can say all day every day that someone's posting from a scum mindset, but if your backing is crap, your backing is crap. If your backing doesn't exist, your case will be terrible. If you change your supportive reasoning as people refute it, you're going to seem scummy.

And yes, you are the first scum found.

What you said: 1. "nunh unh" 2. "nunh unh" 3. "nunh unh"

What was that about you not arguing against "opinionated cases with opinion being argued all day long" that you posted at the start?

[RayFrost]

Also: mindset? Earlier, you were saying it's more how focused he is on "scum motivated techniques" and then it was "how often he mentions scum" and now it's generic "mind set in which you talk about the game." Is it just me, or has your backing for what you've said and what you think is scummy changed as people disagree with you? [Pro-tip: someone other than neil should reply to this]

You're calling for agreement from others to form their opinion based upon yours? There's something scummy about this, as you've completely opinionated it instead of stating the facts. In which I was clarifying, that it's not the fact that you say the word "scum", but that you're talking from a SCUM mindset. I was not backtracking my steps to generalize the situation, as you called it out for.

Correction: I'm calling for people to

say somefreakingthing

about my case on you past "yah, I agree/disagree" - I want replies that display

why

people agree/disagree with what I've said. I find it interesting that you are arguing that I am "stating opinion" rather than "stating facts" when saying "x/y/z is scummy" is almost certainly an opinion. Example: your shanman case. I disagree with it, I've stated why. Your opinion and my own differ. The difference? I'm not saying that what I've stated is "fact." Mafia is not a game of factual analysis. It's game of logical analysis.

How about I try and make this easier for all of us. Can you

explicitly state

what define the difference between posts of

scum

minset and

town

mindset?

True, people do approach the game differently, but you've yet to actually explain how what he's posted comes from a scum mindset, only that it does. You can say all day every day that someone's posting from a scum mindset, but if your backing is crap, your backing is crap. If your backing doesn't exist, your case will be terrible. If you change your supportive reasoning as people refute it, you're going to seem scummy.

My job isn't to make someone look scummy. It's to show them the posts in which I find scummy, show my slight reasoning as to why it's scummy (which I did, that the posts were from a scum mindset) and then let the town decipher their own opinions. I don't want people voting because they think I am right, but rather because they think that person is indeed scum.

If people think you are right, then they agree with your read. Not seeing why you are trying to make a semantic distinction. Your job

is

to find scum and then

convince others

that the person is scum. It is not enough to merely find them or lay back after posting your initial case. You have to push, push, and shout to be heard over the clamor of other voices.

What was that about you not arguing against "opinionated cases with opinion being argued all day long" that you posted at the start?

I didn't fight your case with opinion, I fought it with facts.

Facts such as "shanman's posting from a scum mindset" or...? If this is a fact to you, you are his scumbuddy. Otherwise, it's your perception (hence, opinion) that his posts are from a scum mindset.

[RayFrost]

okay... I'm convinced...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ray

Shanman may be acting odd. but rays chainsaw is DEFINITELY scummy.

Just to remind you, kcd. Great reasoning, by the way.

[RayFrost]

Very sick as of today, so expect a lack of site presence over the next few days as I recuperate.

V/LA warning for yah, mod

[RayFrost]

Very sick as of today, so expect a lack of site presence over the next few days as I recuperate.

V/LA warning for yah, mod

for how long?

~2-3 days, tops.

[RayFrost]

Cop vs VT vs Doc vs Goon vs RB play is what you need to get into for accurate meta, one game isn't enough.

Neil lynch needs to happen. WD's self vote is null, still find him scummy.

[RayFrost]

Goon vs RB is unnecessary

It is there to emphasize [role changes action] regardless of alignment.

[RayFrost]

Responding to prod. Still recuperating since my last post. Will be able to provide something resembling content tomorrow.

[RayFrost]

Back from V/LA, mwahahaha etc.

Jora reads town to me. The context of his posts seem more like an issue regarding sincere beliefs/misunderstanding on mafia theory rather than some (rather blunt) "tactical" attempt to avoid sharing information to the town.

I would like it if wing unvoted or at least someone on his wagon. I am not entirely comfortable with his lynch due to the sheer

ease

with which it's been pushed. There hasn't really been any attempt at stopping it, which leaves me with the feeling it's going to end up a town lynch. It reads like inexperienced town blundering his way about and getting called out on it.

At this point, I am basing my read on wing from sincerity tells rather than anything else. I haven't found any feeling of manipulation in his postings or deliberate concealing of information.

Max, why didn't you say anything regarding my concealing of my case on neil? You bring up suspicion of jora about a very similar thing, but you posted

nothing

regarding me when I did an even more blatant example of it.

FoS: Max

Currently still prefer my neil vote here.

[RayFrost]

If you missed something that was discussed over some 3~6 pages of the game (IIRC), I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of trusting your reads. Read the thread and give me your top three scum reads after you are done. Hint: this is

not

a request.

[RayFrost]

Jora, you are misunderstanding what Max said.

Would also like to know why neil / max / fatso are still voting wing when he's at L-1. Are you all fine with the idea of him being lynched? What leads you to such certainty when each of you have (IIRC), aside from fatso who is MIA, provided alternative suspicions?

[RayFrost]

Max: At deadline, who would you be most willing to lynch? Who would you be least willing (other than yourself, obv)?

[RayFrost]

My most comfortable vote is either Ray or Shanman. I'm not sure which, if not both are scum, but I'm fairly certain one or the other is. I'm leaning more towards Ray because of his quick defense to Shanman's rescue, his suspicious play throughout the game in general that just rubs me the wrong way, and his extremely weak case against me being his only vote. Though of course that means Shanman would be our target day 2 when Ray flips scum, and I don't know how comfortable I am with Shanman being the focus of day 2 if Ray is indeed scum like I believe. Also, I don't like how Ray has been so pushy about trying to get a vote down (or lynch for that matter)... just another thing that rubs me the wrong way. To be honest, most of my mindset is a little WIFOM concerning him, but I'm not taking the chances. Last time 3 times I listened to my gut against most others, the people were indeed scum. So I like my track record.

VOTE: RayFrost

Pushing people to vote is scummy? I'm no trying to force people to voe any particular person in order to rush a lynch, so this is rather poor representation of what I'm doing. Vote are the town's strongest tool, as they are necessary for the lynch. Votes give a clear stand on where one's suspicion lies. I fail to see how this is scummy. Making people take stances = good play, as it forces them to give reads and reasoning that people can look at.

Defending someone I think is town is scummy because I did it quickly? Would it have been better if I'd not said anything and waited until, say, five days after you presented the case before replying? Speed of defense is an arbitrary tell. I think shan's town. Your case was bad. I defended him.

I've voted two other people with serious intent (as in outside RVS), so you are again not stating "facts" which seem to be oh so important to you. You are the only one I've laid out a full length case on, yes, but you aren't my first and only vote on who's scum.

The "last few times it worked, so I gotta be right" thing reminds me of The 7for7 fallacy, but eh.

Your "his suspect play in general" is vague. Care to point out some specific examples?

[RayFrost]

This, paired with kcda's recent mention of Wing, leads me to confirm my scumread on kcda.

So, my first choice is now kcda, followed closely by Shanman (potential partner). IF kcda fips town (which I just don't see happening), then I'll move over to Jora, rather than Shanman.

Vote: kcda

@Max: I did see the RF confusion thing, but it made little sense when I did, so.

When did you cease finding me scummy? I'm kinda lost on how I went from scummy scum chainsawing for shanman-buddy to not-even-worth-mentioning in your list of suspicions.

How is kcda's belief that wing is scum leading to your belief being solidified? What connective tells do you see between shan and kcda that lead you to believe they are most likely to be scum together? If kcda flips town, is jora your

only

suspect for who is scum?

[RayFrost]

Why Fatso? Voting for Shanman brings moar benefits. Just an example:

if Shanman flips scum, then neil1113 would be totally cleared.

The case on Fatso absolutely have no references to others deeds. I mean he just make a stupid mistake, and

even if he is a scum then his partner was probably the fist one who bit him.

Therefore, voting Fatso instead of voting Shanman would be reasonable only if you pretty sure that Fatso would much likely to be scum.

If you had shared any information I could excuse it, but you have not.

You are liar. I'm shared enough.

No. Just no. Way too many assumptions here. Neil could be bussing shanman or doing some heavy duty distancing (considering he's switched to me and said nothing regarding shanman's scumminess in his recent case, it's probably more likely to be distancing attempt if they are both scum, but I can't read minds). Fatso's partner

could

be bussing him, but there's no real evidence of this, and bussing is not evident in any of the cases I've read so far.

[RayFrost]

This, paired with kcda's recent mention of Wing, leads me to confirm my scumread on kcda.

So, my first choice is now kcda, followed closely by Shanman (potential partner). IF kcda fips town (which I just don't see happening), then I'll move over to Jora, rather than Shanman.

Vote: kcda

@Max: I did see the RF confusion thing, but it made little sense when I did, so.

When did you cease finding me scummy? I'm kinda lost on how I went from scummy scum chainsawing for shanman-buddy to not-even-worth-mentioning in your list of suspicions.

Per this post, I didn't seriously find you scummy. I was reaction fishing. I've pretty much thought you were town most of the game.

How is kcda's belief that wing is scum leading to your belief being solidified? What connective tells do you see between shan and kcda that lead you to believe they are most likely to be scum together? If kcda flips town, is jora your

only

suspect for who is scum?

Last question first: No, Jora would not be my only suspect should Kcda flip town; but I don't have another identified in that event (yet). I would have to start anew and look for connections/behavior/etc.
Second question: I see no (blatant) connection between Kcda and Shan; it's just that Shan is my secondmost suspect

at this moment.

(Aaah, on looking, I did say 'potential partner' -- that's only because scum are partners. Not because I see a connection.)
First question: Because Wing is so obviously, painfully town that only a scum would be seeing him as scummy right now.

Side note: I've seen neil's scumplay; this ain't it. Therefore, neil is certainly town.

Stuff about me: 'kay then. Have to say that I disagree with your statement that it's the only way to do reaction fishing, but not-really-relevant-to-scumhunting, etc.

Answering your answers in order of your post:

'kay then.

Okay. What do you feel is scummy about shan? I personally find him to be rather townish. Is it just from neil's case on him or do you have your own to present aside from the buddying aspect you brought up?

I'm not sure I agree with this concept or how you are applying it. Kdca isn't the only one to comment on wing as a scummy slot (max is a very obv and obv example, and fatso has also done so without commenting on anybody else), and he, in his posting before your vote, switched from his wing should die read to fatso is scum. The idea that only scum would find wing to be scummy is auto-false by there being

three different players

doing so. Only two can be scum if that many. I

don't think this is

know this isn't your only justification for a kcda lynch, so I'm going to say this (what you've said so far) is unsatisfactory and expect you to explain yourself.

What's your meta on neil? How many games? How recent? Level of similarity in the situation in that game to this one? What behaviors tip you off to neil-town meta rather than not-neil-scum meta?

[RayFrost]

Unvote, Vote: Fatso

Not liking his over commitment to the wing lynch and lack of commentary about

anything else in this game

. Feels like scum trying to avoid poking any bears.

[RayFrost]

I suggest you start by providing content about something other than yourself and wing. Now.

[RayFrost]

For those of you who don't read the news, an earthquake hit off the coast of Japan. The only significant impact this has had on me is ruining my ability to sleep with constant aftershocks. all. night. long. My lack of sleep has lead to my being run down, so excuse me if my following posts are of low quality in comparison to my previous awesomeness.

[RayFrost]

sorry the "jopa" was absentminded and unintentional.

... not even trying to reply to the case(s). #2/3 on my scumlist now.

[RayFrost]

Just going to save space and not quote this for you,

NS

.

[RayFrost]

Here's my reads so far:
Kcdaspot: Eh, kind of on the fence. He's been all over the place for a large portion of the game. Probably town, though.
MaxKojote: Seems very towny. Makes goods points.
neil1113: Seems townish, but he pursued the Shanman case halfway to death. I'm not sure if that's scummy, though. He might have just REALLY thought Shanman was scum.
Nobody Special: Not getting a good read one way or the other. Doesn't seem particularly scummy though.
RayFrost: No good reads one way or the other. Kind of weird he hasn't really pushed any case on someone in particular, unless he has at some point and I missed it.
Shanman: Scum blending in? Town without much time to post? One of the two.
WingDamage9001: Pretty scummy. Only person I find lynch-worthy at the moment, but that could certainly change.
}|{opa: Kind of... well, weird. Starting with is name and ending with his tendency to be rather erratic. Seems sort of towny, though.
Zoraster: Definitely mod.

Zor's definitely otter, not mod. Or maybe a mod otter. Definitely not just mod, though.

Your comments regarding p. much everybody don't really say anything and just go "kinda townish I guess." The only ones you come close to quantifying are the read on me and the read on }|{opa. Your stuff on me is just ridiculous considering I've pushed at least two cases so far. My neil pushing makes up a sizable portion of my iso, even.

Your }|{opa explanation is generic. Most of your reads are generic. I see nothing in this post that makes it seem like anything remotely close to sincere town trying to give their reads rather than scum trying to cobble up a list when they are under pressure.

[RayFrost]

The second is ongoing: my case on you.

Can you detail

why

shanman's scummy for the class? Also, you state that }|{opa is "sorta townie" in your initial reads but are now listing him as possible scum whereas you leave out null reads. The fact you can't even keep your own story straight in a short span of time is solidifying my read on you.

[RayFrost]

Neil, would you care to lay out a case explaining your lack of a scum read on fatso? Pre-emptive comment: saying "you and wing are on the wagon" doesn't qualify.

[RayFrost]

How are we to differentiate your stated }|{opa read from your other "seems towny" reads? Most of your list has "seems towny" in them.

[RayFrost]

As neil asked me to "convince" him, I figure I might as well type up a full length case on fatso via an iso read to make it easier for

everyone

to see the logic behind my suspicion.

Fatso's early posting is not anything particularly significant until his kcdaspot vote where he quite clearly displays that he's paying a total of 0 attention to the threa, considering kcaspot had contribute to a sizable potion of the thread's total posting at that point.

Reading over his NL stuff, I still feel that it's a newbie tell rather than anything else. The kcdaspot not-reading-the-threa is also of the same level.

In his first real display of suspicion (here), he doesn't actually back it up and just lays down a worthless pair of FoS's. Note that his suspicion of WD came after multiple people started to lean towards that idea. The kcdaspot suspicion is what I'd describe as "meh at best" - he qualifies what he's saying to make it seem like his "finger of M[ajor/inor?] suspicion" isn't a big deal. We shall note over his posting that he has a tendency to qualify all of his perceptions with "well, maybe it's something that can be excused" and similar.

He defends himself by saying he can't offer a differing opinion. True, you agree with them. You can still provide your own reasoning or backing or point out what specifically makes

you

certain, and fatso seems to go out of his way to avoid this as much as possible. This is a trend we shall, once again, see in his posting.

In his next posting he incurs the "too scummy to be scum" logical fallacy. Bad play but not an alignment tell, null effect on the read through so far. Only thing worth noting here is the fact this is pretty much the only post where he actually goes into something resembling depth with his reads.

Then, when I think he's finally taking a stand that's rather controversial, he just goes "well, I'm just saying that I think this might be the case but I'm not even certain about it myself" - he's actively softening his position to avoid having to go into further depth into it.

I'd like to point out the contrast here with the posting here. He goes from a hard "THOU ART SUSPICIOUS INDEED" to "I dunno"

Funny thing about this is how fatso's hardly justified his votes and suspicions in general and the fact he contradicted himself in his recent postings (as I've pointed out).

This is the first post where fatso seems to be making any solid stands on things. It comes after my explicitly asking for his opinions on players, and he doesn't back his statements up. He even contradicts his own stated reasoning. He finds kcdaspot's being all over the place odd, is on the fence on him, yet think he's probably town. He says I haven't pushed any cases, which is quite simply untrue. He gives no content re: shanman. He states he finds }|{opa somewhat townie while his suspicion of wing is based upon "weird play" which he considers scummy which would mean }|{opa would be somewhat scummy for having odd play, but he says sort of towny instead. All of his reads here, save his strong town read on max, are qualified or uncertain.

He then goes with a "possible scum" list that excludes everybody he finds "null" wher ehes found }|{opa both townish and scummy in his readings yet hasn't really pointed anything out to back up why he finds }|{opa's play odd and why said oddness is scummy rather than a personality quirk.

He states in his earlier post that is was his *reads* and now it's just a list of random thoughts after reading our posts? Smehow, he reads out posts yet completely misses my push on neil and doesn't have any real content regarding his reads and has absolutely zilch on the solid reads. That and now he's even backing down off his "strong" read on Max.

Fatso's consistent backing down and shifting his feet and never coming forward with any sort of real confidence in his reads shows nervous scum trying to avoid making people focus on him and trying to appease those that are pressuring him. Evidence includes his sudden list of reads whereas before there was pressure on him he was completely fine with making sideline commentary that provided an average total of little to nothing in scumhunting and the fact he's got practically all of the active posters as null.

[RayFrost]

Mod: Would like a prod / replacement on shanman. He hasn't posted for four, going on five, days now.

[RayFrost]

Specifically, in his isos #15 and 16 he makes a show of pointing out that he knows how scum works. It's mainly gut, but he's being

too helpful,

and I feel this is an attempt to "look town." Read his iso; he's playing more like an IC than a regular player. At one point he even says "I suppose I should let the IC explain this" and then goes on to explain it anyway. (No, I'm not all butthurt over him seemingly stepping on my IC toes.)

I can see where you are coming from, I think. It's the fact he's been taking an actively helpful stance on things outside of scumhunting without trying to find scum. During his period of activity, he spent a lot of his time answering not-quite-game-related stuff. Amirite?

When I posted this, I was basing your obvious, painful towniness on the fact that you self-voted twice. I don't think scum would take that chance -- especially newbie scum. That's pretty much it.

I've seen newbie scum cave under pressure and self-hammer. In fact, you've seen it too in the recently completed game involving penpen. What leads you to believe Wing is any different?

Also, opinion on the Fatso case? Anything to add?

[RayFrost]

@RayFrost: That's a good enough case where I'd say I'm probably screwed no matter what I say, but I'll attempt to form a defense anyway:

This isn't necessary. Just reply to the case. Self-defeating attitude is self-defeating.

First off, my Kcda vote was an honest mistake. I had a terrible cold at the time (which I think I mentioned) and after reading through the thread, I for some reason couldn't think of what his picture was, leading me to believe that he hadn't posted. Obviously I was wrong there.

As I said, this was a newbie tell not a scumtell. The fact you continue to defend yourself on something that I've said is null is suspect.

As for my FoS's, I don't really see anything wrong with them. True, I didn't lay anything down to back up the FoS on Wing, but I thought that my reasoning was a bit obvious. Apparently I was wrong, but I answered Shanman's question in reference to that post just two (I think) posts later. Also, I tend to say things like "well, maybe it's something that can be excused" because a large portion of the time it seems like people make mountains out of mole hills, which can lead to mis-lynching, so I'm really just trying to say "it's not a huge point though."

My issue is not so much the singular instance of saying it's a small point. It's the fact you've

continuously

said that pretty much

all

or your points are small. This kind of saying something and then undercutting what you say is scummy to me due to the fact you are constantly doing so. There cmes a point where you need to stake a solid stand. That time is when you have something you feel is worth it. Unless you mean to say you've found

nothing

worth having a stiff backbone about, I am really suspicious of the ease with which you bend away from your own arguments.

Deffending myself by saying I can't offer a different opinion still seems like a fair defense to me, although I do agree I could have put down a bit more reasoning perhaps. I don't really see how I went "out of my way" to avoid the point though.

You didn't

put any reasoning

in the first place is my issue. It's not a "give more reasoning" instance. It's a "give some freaking reasoning" problem. Your postings have been completely lacking in any sort of backing or evidence when you've been talking about your reads on people. Saying "his posts give me weird vibes" is not reasoning unless you give some examples. Without the examples and logic, it's just an excuse. The you've been going out of you way comment is a perception of your play throughout this game. You've actually posted more backing in defending yourself than you have in

the sum of all of your posts that involve reads

. It shows you can give backing and are choosing to not back yourself up in your reads, which is what I'd call going out of your way to avoid having to back your points.

I don't really see how I was "actively softening his (my) position to avoid having to go into further depth into it." I was just saying it made me waver a bit, and that it shouldn't be taken as fact or anything (which it rather obviously wasn't).

Your constant qualification for what limited analysis you actually give reads as softening your positions to avoid taking a hard line. It's a consistent issue I have with your postings. Not sure how many different ways I can say it.

All I was saying was that I was satisfied with your defense. I guess I didn't make that clear enough.

With

my

defense. Not shanman's defense. Just mine? If so, why did your suspicion fall from shanman? Not to mention the fact you placed a

major

fos on us. This represents a hard feeling of suspicion that wouldn't be lifted by a generic "I like your defence." You essentially rode neil's coattails about me and then hopped off when it got heated without once showing what caused your initial suspicion or what made you drop it.

I don't really understand the significance of the link here. The contradictions were a couple of mistakes I made when typing things (as I'll explain when I get to them).

My issue is the fact you are unwilling to accept wing's explanations. Wing explained himself, and you seemed to scoot right by that without even discussing it or explaining why it was unsatisfactory. This is much like you ignoring NS' post regarding you: you are avoiding the hard things... like making cases.

Starting with the last first here, when did I say I wasn't reading Max as strong? As for my "reads" list, I believe I stated that the "reads" part was a mistake. I typed up the list, went off and did something else, came back, and realized that I hadn't posted it. Without re-reading it, I put a "title" on it which contained the word "reads." I looked back later and realized that that was the wrong word to use, and then a bit after that, you posted just what I was thinking.

The reason I haven't put any

solid stands before this

is because I have been a little overwhelmed recently. The contradictions I also see as being sort of justified (if you can really justify a contradiction in mafia). The "reads" list being nothing more than some thoughts on people means I didn't really think it through as much as I would have an actual reads list.

Like I said, this is a ridiculously well put-together case (if incorrect (which it is)) so I don't see myself getting out of this. The main reasons I've been on the sidelines for a large portion of the game have been my schedule and the fact that

I'm pretty sure Wing is scum and I'm sticking with that for now.

Anyways, yeah. Now you can lynch me.

Max quoted the post in question.

You should be putting thought into

all

of your posts.

Bolded: Funny. You haven't put any effort now into convincing people that wing is scum. Simply saying "wing's scum gais" and then waiting for people to read your mind on why is just terrible. Either collect your thoughts and present a case for us or, at minimum,

comment on other cases

. It's not like you and wing are the only possibilities.

[RayFrost]

GreyIce might - I asked him to.

The variations on your name were to keep me from being side-tracked and for slight humor purposes to decrease the level of "MAFIA R SRS BZNZ"

[RayFrost]

I have to admit, you get brownie points for coming up with all those variations, Ice Beam.

I but aim to please, sir koj of the tomes. /bow

Now comment on the case, the lot of you!

[RayFrost]

Also, opinion on the Fatso case? Anything to add?

Per this post in response to Fatso, I'm waiting for him to redeem himself. Or die trying. I'd prefer not to add anything until I hear from him.

NS links it in this post.

The post will be quoted after this statement.

I was thinking you were just a confused townie. Then you posted this.

You're edging toward scumminess, but I'm not willing to put you at L-1.

Yet.

Are you even reading the thread? Please tell me how Kcda is town. I'll take anything. Just read him in iso.

Convince me you're town.

[RayFrost]

Mod: Have you spoken with GreyIce about replacing in? When I asked him, he seemed to be willing.

[RayFrost]

Okay, you've been tunneled on Fatso for this entire thread.

Gimme something that makes him scum scum scum. I mean besides voting for WingDamage which, given his bandwagon-loving ass, is not exactly a bad vote. He's town, but he subscribes to the Albert B. Rampage theory of vote hopping (vote for whoever is scummy at any given moment, regardless of anything else).

Say hi to page 17 for me when you catch up there.

[RayFrost]

Eh, I guess that's valid. I scumhunt all the time when I'm scum though.

I'm confused by this post. Absolutely, utterly confused. Is this to mean in contrast to your almost complete lack of scumhunting in this game? I mean, seriously.

[RayFrost]

Huh? His very first post contained that theory.

As for the apologizing:

Not exactly. I forgot the fact that role-PM alredy contain qiuck topic link (see 1st page where Mod explains things). I'd been mafia here once, but not too long and only as a replacement into ongoing game. In other places where I'd played forum-based mafia there is no quick-topicks at all, mafias just sending PM-s each other at any time they want or communicating elswhere freely.

Then apologizing and being like "meh, forgot they had their QT in their role PM." Then... this gem:

Not exactly. I forgot the fact that role-PM alredy contain qiuck topic link (see 1st page where Mod explains things). I'd been mafia here once, but not too long and only as a replacement into ongoing game. In other places where I'd played forum-based mafia there is no quick-topicks at all, mafias just sending PM-s each other at any time they want or communicating elswhere freely.

Okay, so the mafia communicated freely anywhere, when his original theory was that:

So, pure probability of scum being SE is great. But even more: all SE confirmed their roles before others (when i confirmed so was only Kcdaspot, neil1113, RayFros).

Afair, mafias have a day or two for pre-game conversations in the quick topic, since they more interested in confirming their roles first.

So the mafia have a day or two to discuss their plan before the game, but can discuss their plans whenever they want outside of the topic and thus don't need the day or two N0 to discuss their plans... say what now?

Yah, that kinda caught my attention. It looks more like someone trying to create deliberately false setup speculation to clear himself of suspicion by knowing so little about the scum mechanics than it does someone actually speculating about the game. Because why would the speculation contain so elements so disparate - yet both suggesting he doesn't know anything about how scum work on site?

You quote the same post twice. Doubt this was intentional and all, so I figured I should let you know that I can't follow your case due to that little error. I don't really think your theory here is very good for

finding scum

over finding

carelessness tells

. I read this sequence to not be a staged speculation by jora to seem like ignorant town: his sense of pride's been something consistent enough that I don't think he'd pull an Aikage (for those of you who don't get the reference, here is the source. This is fate pretending to be a completely retard to scoot by). The reason I make the comparison here is due to the deliberate attempt at appearing to lack knowledge / ability that you are stating jora did being of similar nature to Fate's Trickery^TM.

[RayFrost]

Max is probably town. Reaaaalllllyyy lurky and active lurking. Penis of suspicion or whatever you people use, Max, content time.
RayFrost is town. Because he asked me to replace in, and he knows I'd catch him were he scum. But no, really, he's town. Do you ever get bored of being obvtown?
}|{opa: why isn't he wagoned and dead yet? BLAH Y'all ain't wagoning the obvscum again
Niel: town, obv. WTF Ray bad vote was bad.
NobodySpecial: I'll go town on the basis that he's not lurking and incredibly obvious

Vote: }|{opa

You engage in setup speculation in F11 (wut), your post #1 was laaammeee, your vote switch to kcdaspot was lame, you've been a tad happy to call everyone scum all game without the damn votes to back it up, and you went "lame theory" "Oh look I can't be scum because I didn't know they got the QT in the role PM" (nice gambit), "Buddy," "Town cred established? START THROWING SUSPICION AROUND."

Yeah, boys, lynch it with fiyah.

Neil be more careful

Do I ever get bored of being obvtown? I'm only ever obvtown when I'm scum......................................

I fail to

see

remember where jora has/had established "town cred" with the posters in this game (at least... that was stating ITT). Care to point the posts out to me? I'm not the case maker, so you have to find the posts.

What do you feel is more legitimate about WD's/Fatso's suspicion tossing than jora's?

[RayFrost]

What do you mean be careful, Nobody Special?

If you show me where I said "be careful" I will tell you what I meant by it. (Hint: You can't, because I didn't.)

The above quoted post shows who he meant to ask rather than you: GreyIce.

[RayFrost]

^^
Dis is obvtown people. I replace in and defend him and the first thing he does is question my vote and ask me why it wasn't directed at him instead. He doesn't become thankful at the defense, he tries to determine my alignment.

Get this dumb wagon out of my sight.

I happen to disagree on a couple accounts.

You don't really call fatso town, you just say you are "not overwhelmed" by the wagon. You don't break down the case I posted on him or really defend him past saying you don't feel he's

terribly

scummy. You say he's pinged your scumdar. This isn't what I'd call a defense in 99% of the situations I see it. This situation is within that 99%.

This wagon isn't dumb. I'm on it. I made it. I am it's source code.

[RayFrost]

What do you mean be careful, Nobody Special?

Also, what exactly is your case on me for being suspicious Jora? Please tell me you have a halfway decent one now, or my vote will be on you. I've already explained that I have no problem lynching you, Shanman (though now I have a slight problem with him being replaced and all) and RayFrost (though now I must admit, his latest case has his scum read lessened a LOT in my mind.) Fatso has the qualities of being scum, but for some reason I can't read him the way Ray makes him out to be, though I will admit I do agree with Ray's case in general. Fatso is not a comfortable lynch to me.

To make sure I understand you:

You have a different read on fatso, but you can't really find any flaw in what I've posted regarding his being scummy.

Would I be correct?

[RayFrost]

No, it's saying that when I've played before as the mafia, I at least pretend to scumhunt, so I don't see Wing as town because he seems to be scumhunting. I'm not really sure what's so absolutely utterly confusing...

Feigned confusion to state a reason I don't really like your play in this game: you aren't particularly scumhunt-y.

Also grey's read is more "WD's scumhunting seems sincere" than "WD's scumhunting"

[RayFrost]

And? Fluff posting is fluff posting regardless of the time people have to make posts. Regardless, beating a dead horse and etc.

[RayFrost]

Is anyone else finding it practically impossible to parse Jora's last post?

[RayFrost]

Of the [recent] posts by Jora that I can make sense of, I've yet to see anything particularly convincing about anything.

I still feel that his posting's a result of 1) language barrier awkwardness and 2) some-what-experience-but-not-really-in-full-swing-of-things awkwardness. His effort feels sincere if lacking. Kinda like wing is for GreyIce.

[RayFrost]

I have a gut feeling that Jora is town. My gut feeling > GreyIce's case(s). Wanna know why? I felt jora was slightly townish, your case put him at the gray area. My logic and your logic were/are/wilbee about equal. Tiebreaker = my gut. My gut says town. Jora is town.

Him asking you something about what you said that he misunderstood is hardly "probing you" to figure out your alignment. You're stretching to even make it seem townish. Why you'd do so, I've no idea, but it's really annoying. Fatso's at best taken the omgdefeatist stance on things, which is a newb tell, not a town tell. Him saying what you said sounds like it's describing him != him questioning you regarding what you said and "probing" to find some deeper meaning when it comes to your alignment. Srsly.

[RayFrost]

And what's the response been? He still seems actively scumhunting. Even though he admits he thinks he's getting lynched today. He doesn't grab onto my post like 'any port in a storm' he probes me to see if I'm scum.

He's trying to help us find the scum for tomorrow. Scummy? No. So why would I vote him?

You should point out this "active scumhunting" he's been doing for me. I'm kinda finding it hard to see

past his blubber

.

GreyIce, what did you mean be careful?

(1)You push things in bad ways sometimes. I think you're town, but you're being a bit of a pain in my arse. (2)Also if you're doing what I think, I don't think you're doing it as well as you think, and if you're not, you're playing odd. So... take advice in the spirit it's meant

(1): Citation needed kinda sorta. (2) What do you think he is doing that he is not doing as well as you think he thinks he is doing?

So you think you are the weakest player for defense. I mean Kcdaspot? The last game we wagoned Nobody Special he screamed "I IS DOCTORS" and then lurked his way to his day 2 lynch (he was goon). And Fatso was on L-2 and admitted he was probably being lynched.

And you think the scumteam is me and kcdaspot and I went after you for... bananas?

Yep. That makes sense.

RayFrost, get off the pony wagon and onto a real one

I don't understand what you are saying in your first little ditty about "I mean kcd." I fail to see the relevance on your NS commentary or your fatso comment.

Are you admitting you don't understand a word Jora said? If so, why is Jora's rather awkward utility of the English language a scumtell?

My wagon's older. My wagon's cooler. My wagon has more frost and ice than your wagon. My wagon has good logic. My wagon is on scum. My wagon is clearly better.

[RayFrost]

I still fail to see how what he's done is probing.

I still fail to see how newb scum would not be potentially coached by their scum buddy who may be experienced on what to do as scum and how you come to the conclusion that this is unlikely.

I still fail to see where you point out some active scumhunting being performed by him.

I still fail to see the relevance of

Nikanor's

gut in comparison to

RayFrost's

gut. I've eyeballed a playerlist and figured out who the scum are by just that alone. I've gut-copped the scum on n1 before reading the thread upon replacing in (unfortunately, I died too). I've done a lot of things with gut. /7for7fallacy

[RayFrost]

Hey neil, you enjoying your vote on me? I know it must feel good to vote THE RayFrost and all, but it's really not getting you anywhere. Please comment on the largest wagons (fatso / jora), as deadline is approaching and we really should come to a conclusion.

Same to you, NS

[RayFrost]

If my hand is forced by DL, I shall vote for Jora, but you guys really should be lynching scum rather than lynching Siberian Tigers with English Speaking Impediments.

[RayFrost]

As for Fatso:

Here he tries to derail a counterwagon when he's sitting on L-2 by saying the target is town:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p2877367

He also says that after reading what I said and thinking about it he finds WingDamage (who, lets face it, is a fairly easy mislynch) town.

I just can't find the scum motivation to do these things, RayFrost.

I can find plenty of scum motivation for Jora hypothesizing a scumteam of me and kcdaspot when his vote is on neither of us. Chain those lynches, oh yes yes yes.

And suddenly the apologetic helpful Jora is back!

White Knighting's not a particularly bad idea as scum. Very easy to do since you actually

know

the person's town.

Buddying to a newly active & aggressive player (didn't you say something about, oh I dunno... newbie scum buddying?).

His vote was on kcda, IIRC. Falsehood.

I don't see a shift in his posting style, so what is the relevance?

[RayFrost]

Since the scum/town meter seems all the rage these days:

SCUM THAT WILL DIE IN THE DIVINE FREEZER
Fatso - case(s) stated
NS / Kcda - both have been rather lacking in content (consider them closer to null than scum)
Wing - I get a slight newbie town read on him, but I'm

really, really

edgy about it
Jora - reads like a siberian bear rider with a speech impediment (possibly because he was nearly mauled by a bear)
neil - My initial problem with him was his poor shan case, but that may have been due to some bias based upon my shan-town read, and his posting's good overall
GreyIce - If you really need to ask, you're not reading the thread
TOWN THAT SHALL FOREVER LIVE IN MY FROSTY GLORY

[RayFrost]

Neil, I've since rescinded my suspicion of you - read my posting and you'll note that I feel that I was probably exerting bias based upon the fact I had a contradicting read re: shanman.

[RayFrost]

So rather than give kcda time to at least provide content in case he's town, you rush ahead with the lynch? If he flips scum, I'm still not going to like your hammer. You should pretty much always give people time to post their reads even if you think they are scum.

That said, I'm not particularly bothered with this choice. I'd prefer it on fatso, but I seem to be alone in that thinking.

[RayFrost]

Grey. If kcda hadn't died, you'd have been RB'd, so no.

[RayFrost]

Aside from that, this game suffered from something annoying:

Wing was obv anti-town town

Max was semi-inactive obv town

NS an neil were moderately town

kcda was inactive scum

fatso was slightly scummy but not quite there yet town

Shanman was someone I spent time (quite sincerely) defending

And then there's jora who is only scummy for a language barrier.

The wagon on kcda was ridiculously sudden, and it cleared the already remote possibility of turning wing around as scummy. I actually figured I'd be the most likely to get cop investigated due to all my PR reads (namey: grey, neil, and wing) having expressed suspicion of me. I was screwed if there was a cop, an I said as much in the Mafia QT, though I didn't bother expressing secondary and tertiary PR reads.

[RayFrost]

Neil, you're damn good, respect. You called it, dead on.

RayFrost is town. Because he asked me to replace in, and he knows I'd catch him were he scum. But no, really, he's town. Do you ever get bored of being obvtown?

This may have been my most favorite post in the entire thread.

I can be cheeky too

This happens to be the reason I figured you were a PR... ;P

[RayFrost]

I ended up choosing neil over you by a bare margin, to be honest. Tipping point was actually believing the potential doc would be more liable to protect you if you were a cop / VT. Neil seemed more likely to go through as a kill (but I feel like I was screwed anyway).

[RayFrost]

Further emphasizing that I should be the RB in any mafia duo, as I always live past D1...

[RayFrost]

That said, I still don't get the whole "IT IS DEADLINE, EVERYONE SWITCH TO KCDASPOT WITHOUT ANY REASONING WHATSOEVER OR EVEN TRYING TO MAKE IT SEEM LIKE THIS IS NOT JUST A RANDOM SWITCH TO SOMEONE ELSE"

[RayFrost]

Best and worst, yes.

[RayFrost]

Overall actually gameplay commentary rather than me QQ'ing:

Grey - don't be "cheeky" with false reads, they'll tip people off to it being not like the others.

Max - be more active

Fatso - my reasoning for finding you scum can all be attributed to newbie town. Take what I said as gameplay advice: take harder stances, be sincere, and don't be afraid to push at people even if they tear you apart. Get reads based upon being torn apart - is what they are doing over the top in reaction? Are they sincerely defending themself or also going further to try and discredit you? Etc. When someone makes a case, saying "this is a goo case and I'll probably be lynched" is not really that good an idea. It decreases thecredibility of your efense. Defend yourself an then move on with your scumhunting. Never stop scumhunting, this is crucial for finding scum even if you

do

get lynched.

Jora - Please try to increase the clarity of your language usage. You actually made some decent points, but they were muddied by the fact your English lacked clarity.

Wing - Try to include a bit more logic and reasoning and avoid self voting and such. It's not going to help you down the line to make a self-defeating habit such as that. When you feel some people are scum, just going "people claimed scum" and then not delving into how they are scummy will lead to your being suspect rather than people taking your case seriously. There is value in reaction fishing, but you've got to know what you're looking for in order

to

reaction fish, and it's generally better to have sincerity in your cases anyway.

[RayFrost]

Kcda - activity, activity, activity, activity activity, activity, activity, activity activity, activity, activity, activity activity, activity, activity, activity activity, activity, activity. Can't stress it enough.

[RayFrost]

By the way... if there was no doc, grey'd have been fakeclaiming scum. There can't be a cop without a doc.

[RayFrost]

By the way... if there was no doc, grey'd have been fakeclaiming scum. There can't be a cop without a doc in a game with a maf RB.

[RayFrost]

XD Again, I would have been at the major points as well, but they all occurred when I was asleep. I feel like I'm the guy knocking on the wall and yelling at you guys to keep the noise level down.

Main problem was not really knowing what to put forward. My actions int his game are actually very outgoing for me. >> I do intend to work on being more active and providing more content.

Incidentally, I didn't have scum reads on either Ray or Kcd. XD I was still aiming at Wing and Jora for the same reasons I had mentioned previously.

Living in Japan, I can understand this a little, but.... The key thing to do is to provide your input, even if it's the same thing. Take your spin on it even if you end up saying the same thing, as the method in which you reach the conclusion may be different. If you're scum read is a scum read that matches someone elses', great. Now look at the

reasons

.

Kcda: considering that's my only issue with your gameplay...

[RayFrost]

When you feel you don't have a real reason for your read, try iso'ing people and considering it. If that doesn't work, just say you have a certain feeling about people that you can't quite quantify. There's nothing wrong with giving gut feelings. If you feel you've nothing to say, try reading the thread again and thinking about each player inividually. It sometimes helps to read an entire chain of interactions throughout a thread rather than each post as it develops.

[RayFrost]

I've yet to try what greyice mentioned, but it's a good idea regardless.

[RayFrost]

.... I never said you don't take reasonable approaches?

BftBG has been done before. No longer best.

Best is "I AM A POWERFUL WIZARD" - Paraphrase of Spyrex

[RayFrost]

The issue in this game was the complete lack of scummy players. Every single scum tell was an attribute of newbie-ness, which makes the wagons hard to get. I'd have ended up white knighting.

I get puzzled often, but I don't reveal it. As for probing: that's what my cases are for. On waffling: I find waffling to be a scumtell sometimes, and the fact of the matter is... there was nothing to lead to constantly shifting my reads. I stick to my guns or then change them. I don't go "well, I dunno, this might be better, but I like that even those I liked this better earlier" - I go "I liked that, but it's wrong now. This is the new correct read."

Sincerity is really hard to see in a general sense: you'd have to know the person first to see how they display their "sincere" probing. I

did

probe this game in making cases.

I rarely ask questions, and if you'd care to note... I still did ask questions of people.