Newbie 1067 - Game over - Town Win!

[dysorder]

Hi, hello, greetings, etc.

I'm an absolute newbie, and in GMT+ 11 at the moment, so if you don't hear from me for several hours at a time, that is why.

VOTE: Les Guilelesser

Because random voting of other newbies could only be a good start, right?

[dysorder]

Answers.

1) Blue.
2) Yes.
3) That would help.
4) Dissecting posts without 6 million quotes.
5) About as much wood as he could chuck, I imagine.

[dysorder]

Nacho:

I wouldn't say my two posts have been guarded, but they were very brief. My first post was on a Sunday morning at 8.46am here, before I rushed out and went to an all day event (UFC, for those wondering.) The second post was at 6.23am this morning, before I rushed off to work. Most of the posts seemed to occur in my overnight and waking up, I don't have too much to say. Even if I did, it'd be "quick, type this and hit send" and then run out the door.
Being an absolute noob doesn't exactly help, either.

[dysorder]

Well, I see you have excuses... But do you have suspicions? Give me some content and I'll be perfectly happy to remove the vote. Otherwise, I'll do my best to make sure you die today.

Content... Let's see.

Suspicions, the only real suspicion I have is Mist for raising a cop claim and while not quite suggesting it, but hinting that it could "work" here. I honestly don't think it would be a good idea at all, even if it does have its use over on EM. It seems a little odd, is all.

^ a quick short post -
We would be automatically finding the mafia if nacho was hammered. And btw guys just because someones an IC or a SE doesn't grant them town so don't make assumptions.

This is about as much as Escho has posted. For a couple of pages in, this doesn't seem like the work of a SE player. Shouldn't an SE know more about what sort of posting requirements are needed in this game? The statement that he made about IC and SE could also be an attempt to throw more heat onto Nacho, and the other SE, without entangling him.

[dysorder]

What line of conduct is that, Les? Is it that I randomly voted for you on the first page, during RVS?

[dysorder]

Guilelesser's statements are a bit... strange, but okay.

I'll UNVOTE: and leave it at that. Escho's L/VA may explain his silence for the first couple of pages, so I'm a little lost as to where to look now. I still think Mist was acting a little strange, but nothing really concrete to base a serious vote on.

I'm hoping Perry can come through with a decent post like he's been claiming to be putting up, without actually saying much else...

[dysorder]

I'm thinking Les' strangeness may have something to do with pure newbie, but I could be wrong. Maybe he's just playing the newbie card really, really well.

Perry, you still haven't really said anything. You seem to know an awful lot about EpicMafia but don't have the time to construct something serious here. Even after inspiratieloos gives you pointers, you just go back to more EM comments. Time to start some typing and show us you're ready to find some scum. Or are you trying to avoid that...?

[dysorder]

Nacho - You've gone from a slight scum read on Les to a vote without that much explanation. Any more on your read you want to share with us? As for your question to me, it was okay when it was only a few words in two posts back then. Now, it's not quite that okay at all. He's appearing more concerned about roles after death than actually dying. I can't even begin to guess what that means for him, is he afraid of being outed as scum before doing anything?

Mist - You quickly switched from a "not much" scum read on Les to a vote with just one post from him. Yeah, it's a scummy post, but that was pretty quick. And you're defiant we should lynch him. Why so sure?

After all that, I actually agree with you both, and Les is seeming scummy. I'll roll with it. VOTE: Les Guilelesser

[dysorder]

Not to be a pain, but post #100 has my vote for Les. Forgot to hit enter and put it in a viewable position, sorry.

Mod note: Sorry, I missed that. Thanks for the correction.

[dysorder]

My apologies for being quiet, the past few days have been slightly hectic for me. Let's be honest though, not much has changed in this game. Les is still acting incredibly bizarre, and Perry is still maintaining his couple of line posts...

The thing is, I'm not so sure either are scum at all anymore. I agree, after reading over them a bit more, that Les' language barrier could be an influence into how his posts read, as well as his obvious desire to insert some roleplay into this. This brings me to another point: With Les making some MASSIVE noise, chaos and confusion, keeping him around could only be a good thing for scum. If they keep the raving, lunatic Townie around, that means they can keep most people distracted and manouvre around them. That said, they also have to be seen to be similarly chasing down the raving lunatic, but making sure they keep him around. Something had been bugging me all weekend: Nacho had placed his vote on Les, making it -2 and made sure it was known in #89, but as soon as I get it near hammer with my vote at #100, he unvotes and promptly changes course, picking a new target. He claims the day is young, and wants to hear more from Les, but swerves and starts charging at Perry. If this was someone who did think that Les was acting scummy, he should be pressuring Les more. I'm fine with removing the vote to save him from being hammered, that makes sense. But he doesn't put any more pressure on Les at all, simply leaves him alone and within a few of Les' bizarre posts, he concludes that Les is town after all and Perry is undoubtedly scum. Incredibly suspicious, from my point of view.

With that wall of text said and suspicions raised, I'm keeping my vote on Les. I don't want this noise distracting us from finding real scum. It's too easy to let a townie survive, only to have him make all the wrong noise and distract us, only to end up with Mafia swerving us against each other during the day and capping us in the night.

Also, for those who are now highly suspicious of Perry, don't you think that if he was scum (and new at that), he would have actually found time to write up a whole big post by now? If all he has to do is write a few paragraphs giving his thoughts and ideas on the game to get you people off his back, any mafia (and especially a new, paranoid player) would succumb to that to stay within the confines of the game and not look suspicious. I really do think his reading/posting on his phone claims are valid, and just seems like someone who can't really play the game right now.

tl;dr - I think Les and Perry are town, Les is annoying noise and maf are using him to distract us. My vote stays, but I'm looking at Nacho suspiciously. No finger, not just yet.

[dysorder]

With Les making some MASSIVE noise, chaos and confusion, keeping him around could only be a good thing for scum. If they keep the raving,

lunatic Townie

around, that means they can keep most people distracted and manouvre around them....

With that wall of text said and suspicions raised,

I'm keeping my vote on Les.

I don't want this noise distracting us from finding real scum.

Bravo!
What you are saying is that Les is Townie (though is lunatic) and then let's lynch him (Les, the Townie) on Day 1 because I am so tired of this noise. Yes, let us lynch a townie on the 1 day - this will give us a bit of rest - and then we shall go in search of mafia.

You act like a real maf, Disorder!

No, Las, I'm acting like somebody who wants to flush out the mafia. With you acting like a crazed loon the focus is all on you and nobody else. Except the opposite end of the spectrum, Perry.

You want to talk about scum moves, Les, why don't you actually flesh out some ideas of your own and share them with us? And no, I'm not talking about "he voted for me so he MUST BE MAFIA!!" reasons. That's all you've given us, and some crazed character.

[dysorder]

Safe to say this game has died?

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next post though i don't think he explained it well enough. les may have something here. i'm going say null to slight scum. and i'm keeping an eye on him.

Unsure what you're trying to say there, I didn't explain what well enough? The very same point I was making in the post before that?

Those last 3 sentences are directed at les... voting someone to l-2 and then calling them town in the same post.. is this typical IC play?

No, he mentions post #76 which is Inspiratieloos decent sized post with no vote. That's who he's referring to with the town read, at that stage. Of course, Nacho then does seem to flip within a moment's notice that Les is town.

What are your opinions on Hazard and Inspira, since you seem to be handing out your reads at the very last minute?

[dysorder]

Nacho - And now that you've got the reads from Kcda, what are your opinions? You want to talk about the pressure on him, but haven't followed through now that he's posted them.

Face it, you just switch from target to target, pointing the finger elsewhere continuously, and don't back any of it up when the person comes through with the goods you request. You just switch to a new target, depending on how you feel. Here's a couple of options for you: Now that Zachrulez has joined the game and used your descriptor of "coasting scum" for me, you could always jump on that bandwagon. You haven't pointed at Mist, perhaps you might like to give her a vote and see what kind of hoops she'll jump for your demands.

Or, and here's a good one that I'd like to see, you could actually have a look at someone else who's been coasting this entire time, Hazard. You even had a go at him within the first few days for not joining you in pressuring me, and he's still stayed quiet this entire time, and you haven't even looked sideways at him since. Is something going on here? You single somebody out, they seemingly retort back in a negative fashion, and you just shrug your shoulders and ignore it? You say you want content from others, Hazard gives you one or two lines and you're satisfied. That to me is incredibly fishy. I've had a scum read on you for a while now, but this is just pushing it over the edge.

So,
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nachomamma8

FOS on Hazard for buddy for above reasons.

P.S. Zachrulez, welcome.

[dysorder]

For the sake of getting this game moving along and Kcda making some good points, UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hazard with a Glove

[dysorder]

So, Kcda's target flips town, and then the only person who had their eye on Kcda is NKed.

Hmmm...

[dysorder]

So, Kcda's target flips town, and then the only person who had their eye on Kcda is NKed.

Hmmm...

If you're going to post something like this, I expect a vote as well. It's not good to aimlessly plant seeds and wait for someone else to grow the plant of suspicion for you.

Vote: Kcdaspot

, however. I have my eye on dysorder.

Heaven forbid I make a quick post (and wrong, at that) and forget to write down a vote.

You also had a vote down for Kcda. Using my post now to grow this apparent plant of suspicion against him further? Kind of convenient, isn't it?

[dysorder]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Dys

his entire D1 is defend and votehopping. the only reasoned out vote he had was on nacho.

You are kidding me, right? You want to vote based on votehopping, there's a couple of candidates who way, way out-hopped me during D1.

As for reasoned vote, I'm pretty sure my vote on Les was fairly reasonable. So there's two votes out of my "vote-hopping day". In fact, the only illogical and unreasoned vote (excluding RVS) I put up was following you and your read/lead against Hazard. To be fair, that vote also tied in with my read of Nacho and thinking that he and Hazard were scumbuddies. So that accounts for my "votehopping" and unreasoned votes.

As for defending, well, that's part of the game. You can't say I haven't been provoking and asking questions of people, because I have. By far and large they get ignored, but I'm hardly going to start pestering people. Maybe I should just start being an idiot like Les and get attention like that.

Is this vote on me based purely on the fact that I brought up some suspicion around you and your target going down, and somebody targeting you getting NKed? Refuting your argument, as I have, that's the only basis I can really find in your vote. Maybe you should look at Nacho who actually put a physical vote against you. I'm actually concerned that the maf may be using you as a cover. It makes sense to me:
You pushed for people to vote Hazard, made decent points against him, he gets lynched and flips town. Automatically looks bad for you.
Then one of the people who is voting you and pushing for town to wagon against you gets NKed. Looks doubly bad for you.

It either looks like someone is trying to use you, or you're so horrible at maf a newbie like me can pick it. I really don't think it's the latter, so my gut is saying that you're being set up. And someone who should be able to provide a better read on that is our IC, Nacho. What say you Nacho, a plausible theory? Or are you going to ignore another of my questions?

[dysorder]

My apologies Mist, I didn't see that similar claim before I went off ranting.

If I had, I would have given you credit for saying it first and built on it. I was hinting that in my first post of the day, but didn't want to lean either way.

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it does not help that most of the town is lurking/don't care :/

Doesn't help that everything I say gets ignored. Why would I put effort in to continually get brushed over?

[dysorder]

Sorry about my non-showing guys, I've been checking in and reading but haven't had much time to post up much of anything.

Reads... I'll give it a shot. Excuse the brevity of them.

Nacho/the new Uncle Pain: Uncle, sorry to say, but I had a scum read on your former player. His vote hopping and avoidance of latter D1 discussion about it set off my (albeit new) scum sense. D2, and fresh off my inquisitive post regarding Kcda, he fires off a vote directly to Kcda without much of a point or reasoning behind it either. Not to mention he just promptly disappears, but that is a discussion for another day, another time. Maybe you might change my mind, sir Pain.

Kcdaspot: Rightly or wrongly, I still feel a town read here. He did have some valid points revolving around Hazard, and you really can't do much else when your subject of vote is barely playing or contributing in any way/shape/form. I'd still like for him to actually respond to a bit of my posts. Thinking about his actions in the last few hours of D1, though. Did an awful lot of posting back then, something I need to go over later.

Inspiratieloos: Fairly town, has been playing the game well and pretty clean. Maybe that's to throw us off the trail, but so far, town.

Perry: Well, not that there's been much to work with, but I'm still gut feeling town on him. He's done his best given his limited posting abilities, I guess, and whilst not helpful to town to have such restrictions, is still looking fairly town.

Mist: Null-town/crazy. Sorry kiddo, but you kinda do give off the crazy vibe. I'm taking other peoples' word that this is your play/posting style. Seems town one minute, and then puts up something slight scum the next. Possibly could be pulling off a good scum game, not sure.

Les: Christ, where to begin. The style just keeps giving different tells... One minute he seems to be a victim of language barriers and play styles, and the next he just looks obvious scum. I'd say null at the moment because there hasn't been much action from him in D2, bar posting updated reads based on a couple of sentences from Mist.

[dysorder]

Pain: Nope. Nacho went from me at first (which I'll be fair and place on a RVS pile, it was his first vote) to Hazard in #62, to Les at #89, to Perry at #102 and to Kcdaspot, finally, at #202.

The sudden unvoting of Les at L-1 could be viewed either way; maybe he was trying to save his buddy, or maybe he did feel there was more info to be given out from Les. Personally, I don't think much more actually changed with Les. I think he might have acted even more strange, but there were some fair town vibes coming off at that stage, but Nacho never really pursued that. Just pulled out a couple of quotes and said "here, Les is town, let's move on" at #158.

You may be right about his playing elsewhere, but unfortunately I can only go off what I see here.

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Uncle Pain: My response to kcdaspot's vote is in #348, where I disproved his only two reasons for voting me, aside from the whole OMGUS angle. He hasn't been bothered to retort to anything I had to say, which after thinking about it seems very strange. Not sure he even actually cares about the vote on me, to be honest. Only one other mention of me and that was asking you what you thought of me.

Maybe I've overlooked his play and misread...

[dysorder]

First off, welcome Stefunny.

Sorry guys and girls, I haven't had a whole lot to say lately. I've been reading and going over things, but I just didn't have much input.

After re-reading Kcda, I can definitely see some scum coming through. I'm not convinced, though, and wouldn't mind waiting for him to respond to his now L-1. Thing is, all three of our replacements have put some fresh ideas forward, and I'm seeing all their points, which makes me wonder if I'm on the right track at all.

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Wow. I had a big post typed up and I was about to post and just decided to refresh the page to see if there were any new posts and bam, there's the hammer.

Not sure if it's still worthwhile putting up my wall of text +9000 post now.

[dysorder]

First off, wow.

Second of all, I'll answer questions then get onto my thoughts.

Uncle Pain: Not all of it, no. Basically, it was my thoughts on Kcda being maf, hammering, and half of the two reasons I had for not hammering before. The next two paragraphs are excerpts that would be somewhat related.:

"I've also thought about my theory that the scum were setting Kcda up for a fall with NKing one of the players who had a vote on him during D1 and come up with an alternate view. Potentially, it could be a WIFOM argument, that he did it just to look so newb-scum that nobody could possibly think it was him. If accused of being scum and NKing his target, all it would take would be his buddy or even himself to point out that the Maf would want to get rid of an experienced player, somebody who was incredibly more active than our established IC in Nacho.

Another side to this potential argument, is the scum team being a mixture of Kcda and a new or rushing player, somebody who wouldn't quite think of the ramifications of killing Zachrulez. I won't put a name out at this stage, I think we should be more focused on one than a team at the moment."

One of the reasons I didn't want to hammer is for the usual reason, fear of looking scum if by some strange happening Kcda flipped town. The other reason I was going to leave out of my wall of text was that I wanted to see how Mist reacted to hammering. She says she'll do it blatantly within 24 hours, then 24 hours passes and no Kcda, an easy cop out. Then Kcda finally comes out of the woodwork, posts a barrage of reads that are so ridiculous it's not funny, to which Mist says he seems less scum and wants other people's opinions on that. As soon as GMan questions her on that, boom, 24 hours later, he's hammered.

Which brings me to my next question, from Mist: I think you are Kcda's partner, my dear. Re-reading you over the past couple of days, some things which appear innocent and joking seem to lead to a pretty good case. #5, RVS for Kcda, because he's always scum in your games. I'll let that slide, it's RVS and shenanigans occur. No, the real point here is something that was brought up by Escho earlier on. You claim you're always scummy. The point was raised by Escho, why say this? Are you trying to get everyone to think your play is typically scum, so even though you look scum you're just an innocent townie who can't help how she plays? Very odd.

For the rest of day 1, your banter between yourself and Kcda is off. You both post reads on each other that are all fluff, without questioning each others moves at all.

Day 2. Zach's NK, Mist is shocked. After calling for IC blood all Day 1, an extremely competent player comes into the game and you think a newbie player is going to be killed over one of the more experienced players? Come on. You wanted to get rid of the great players that were capable of figuring you out, it's completely understandable. Then Kcda calls you out for that, places a vote on you. Trying to distract us from who was killed that night, I'm assuming. The vote is so easily taken off you with barely an answer from you, no explanation from Kcda, just straight on to me. I call into question Zach's killing and his relationship with Kcda, and he votes me straight away. It's not even meant to be a serious vote, it's to draw the attention away again from any relationship between Kcda and Mist.

Immediately following Nacho's vote of Kcda, Mist throws up the same idea (re-reading, Inspira posts the same thing before either of us) that Kcda could be being used as a scapegoat. Inspira less so, maybe he was just planting the seed, but Mist literally uses it to defend Kcda from Nacho's vote. At this point, I have to concede that this sort of reasoning could also be used against me, I wrongly bought into his innocence. As Inspira elaborates more on the potential that Kcda could have done it in WIFOM-mode, Mist continues defending Kcda, "I have played with KCD before and I know he would never be that stupid to do that." in #376. Very defensive. Post #421 has her defending Kcda and trying to throw Nacho into the spotlight again. Struggling to save your buddy there, Mist?

Which brings me back to my second reason for not hammering, watching Mist hover over the hammer of Kcda. It looks fairly innocent, wanting to hold off, waiting for Kcda to defend himself... Then as soon as you're questioned, down comes Maxwell's silver hammer.

Who is night killed Night 2? GMan. The very same person who questioned your motives. Really, Mist? You're playing that same card again? Then in subsequent Day 3 posts, you bring the attention to Inspira's GMan vote and then eventual kill. You claim that Kcda couldn't possibly be that stupid to pull that card, but Inspira, who by your own words say is a great player, is stupid enough to do that? That is so incredibly inconsistent, it's shocking.

tl;dr - Mist had shady public dealings with Kcda and is using the "I'm killing the obvious targets against me so I couldn't be Maf" card.

VOTE: Mist7676

P.S. Apologies for massive wall of text. I like to ramble.

[dysorder]

A question to you. Why were you so quiet during KCD's BW?

A few reasons. First, I've been busy. Second, when I did get a moment to look at the thread, I was reading and reading and reading till my eyes bled. Third, I wanted to watch you, like I stated in my wall of text of doom.

I did post during the whole scenario, explaining that I saw everybody's points that they were raising, and that I'd read Kcda again. Post #478 has that, if you're interested. When I finally got a day off, my Saturday morning, so Friday when you hammered, I had my post all ready to go and typed up. You hammered, with the brevity of your post showing more than you could have possibly wanted, and my post and hammer made entirely redundant.

A question back to you: Do you still think Inspira is a great player? You did D2, how about now?


Stefunny: Glad someone picked it up. All the mentions of hammers and I started humming and... Voila.

I agree, I think holding off on your vote is a safe move at the moment. Can always see how the next few posts progress.

[dysorder]

Inspira: That can be answered pretty easily if you think about it. The last thing two maf want is to be seen as two people working together, right? Kcda starts the wagon, and with enough people still left in the game, it makes sense for Mist to stay the hell away from that, and make sure people notice she's distancing herself from it and Kcda.

As was shown, there was more than enough of us gullible fools to bandwagon the lazy Hazard.

[dysorder]

Going through KCD's ISO and the only time he talked about dysorder was in his reads. Distancing much?

I don't have a problem with you using the same "distancing" argument I used against you in my last post, but can I draw your attention to these gems? For most of Day 2, all Kcda contributed was pages of reads, and answered other player's questions about the previous day. He had no time nor care for his weak case against me.

Do you want to try and explain any of my points in my case against you, instead of trying to be like your scum partner and have some weak shots?

Inspira: I don't think anybody could have predicted any move by Les. The man had his own style of thought and play and... Well, what else can I say, he did what he did. I think that's basically what the scum team were hoping for: the craziest, most unpredictable player in the game making the craziest move possible.
I see where you're coming from and it makes sense, it doesn't seem logical for Mist to keep her anti-Hazard lynch stance, but I really think this is part of her play: to keep as far away from Kcda as possible. If things had have switched, and the Kcda bandwagon did get going on Day 1, I'm sure she would have played exactly how she did Day 2. Quietly warmed, then threaten to hammer, and then wait and wait... Then as soon as it looked bad for her waiting so much, hammer. That's if it got to that stage of her being one of the votes needed.

[dysorder]

Also all those accustations are correct. I did do those things but does that

confirm

me as scum? I'm barely learning mafia So I make a few scummy moves.

#20 you tell us you're SE and have played more than a few games around here. With over 1000 posts under your belt to add to this, one thinks you're trying to pull a newb card here. Somehow, I'm not buying it.

Once again, claiming that you make scummy moves, but we shouldn't view you as scum... Why?

[dysorder]

EBWOP - Uncle Pain: In my three hour long ramble in #517

Then as soon as you're questioned, down comes Maxwell's silver hammer.

[dysorder]

Well, that was good.

Thanks everyone for basically carrying me in my first game. I think the next game I might have to post just a tad bit more, instead of saving it all up for one big case.