Newbie Game 1106: Death with a 2x4 (limps to finish line)

[Korlash]

mrifnoc\

I've never played this setup before... Intrigued already.

[Korlash]

*wink*

And I swear to god there Z, I'll hunt you down and give you a stern talking to if you do...

[Korlash]

Touche... You sir are a worthy adversary...

[Korlash]

Alaskan Time Zone for me, GMT -9 / Cleveland Browns -12

[Korlash]

Alright... No vote count though so can't tell if he's counting Quinn's or not... Oh well guess we'll find out eventually.
-Edit- nevermind... >.>

First and foremost,

Vote: Korlash

I was saving a nice tiny piece of delicious cake in the corner of the fridge, then he goes and invents a portal gun and swipes it out from my defenses. Why do I even buy these turrets if they aren't going to do anything.

Ok so I like to say a bit about myself to start things off. I'm Korlash, yes people call me that in real life. you guys can call me whatever you want, odds are I'll have cutesie little nicknames for half of you by the end of the day anyway. I like to think I'm funny even though I know I'm not, I like to think I'm smart even though i know I'm not, and I like to think that every other Tuesday a magical little bistro opens up somewhere downtown where I can get a really really good cheeseburger, but alas I have yet to stumble across it. If you have a few minutes to waste and a death wish you can look me up in my modestly unhelpful wiki page (although I'm sure Z will warn you off on that one) Oh, and I have a fondness for shiny things, but who doesn't right?

Alright let's get started... I don't usually do the whole asking questions thing so you guys are on your own there... sorry. But yeah... Um... look a distraction!

[Korlash]

I realize that your vote for yourself was in jest, Korlash, but I have to say I normally raise an eyebrow at them. Self-voting has always somewhat rubbed me the wrong way.

I never vote in jest... What is it that rubs you the wrong way about self votes?

Sheeping the IC. Also stealing cake is generally a scum-motivated action.

I know right, what the heck is his deal.

Uh... Noob question, how do I bold my votes? Is it HTML or something?

It's

blank[\b] with backslash instead of forward slash. And of course you could go into full response as opposed to quick response and just click the buttons.

[Korlash]

Mostly it was just a reason for a random vote. But even without pressure, I still don't really like self-voting; especially in the random voting stage. It doesn't help us at all, whereas random votes for other people get more discussion going and make things more interesting.

You don't find this discussion interesting?... Peculiar.

How exactly does a random vote for another person spawn any more discussion then a random vote for yourself? One could argue random is random yes? Plus, my self vote has spawned this discussion, so it has already given us a positive step forward.

[Korlash]

And I dislike the idea that self votes are inherently bad, but I can come to terms with our differences if you can. Friends for life man...

I do think it would be a stretch to think that you started the discussion when it is clearly based on my action, but irrelevant pride matter I think. My question still stands, how exactly would a random vote on player X be more benefitial then a random vote on player Y, given the rule that player Y equals self?

[Korlash]

If you vote for someone else, then they may speak up about it, which can be a good way to get a read on at least one of the players involved in the situation. Voting for oneself doesn't put anyone else on the defensive (albeit a very petty defensive), thus taking away one of the great aspects of the random vote.

I guess we'll have to disagree on the way we think then. I like the way I do RVS, and even you would have to admit this game hasn't suffered for it.

Because a random vote for somebody else creates Antagonism, Strife, Discussion! If you vote for yourself, who is your antagonist to argue with? Yourself?
Unless someone else picks up on it, like Poiven here, it is mnot going to generate discussion.
Plus, if you vote for another Person, you have two persons involved. The possibility that one of the two is scum is higher than if you have a selfvote. If you get two players in an argument, the probability of a slip up is higher.
So I agree with Poiven here - vote for other People are better then votes for oneself.

Doom de doom doom doom...

Unless someone actually takes a random vote seriously then voting someone on page two isn't guaranteed to generate anything. Even if you do generate a conversation, it doesn't guarantee any other people will get involved either. However, self voting is a full town topic. All it takes is one person to chime in and I'm guaranteed to get MORE then two people involved in the conversation. You say a conversation with two people has an increased chance of having scum on it, what about one involving six? Or eight?

You also have to realize that in RVS the majority of players are either omitting random votes, or voting for other people. By doing something completely different it adds a unique property the game would otherwise not have, which adds an infinite number of possibilities. The more we do to promote discussion, the wider range of discussion we get, and the more varied the results are. This increases our reads of each other exponentially.

Very long story short, you can't honestly argue if a self vote is better or worse then a RVS vote. It all depends on your preference and playstyle. My Random vote is always on myself because I know the potential it has behind it.

I'm getting general town reads on Korlash and Poiven so far.

seems fairly early to be getting reads... Still i have to agree with Poi. I find commenting on something you don't actually think is important to be a town thing. Scum generally have a motive behind their actions and a fear of putting too much out. Like I said, fairly early to make any decisions but it's definitely a good start.

[Korlash]

The Doom song!

[Korlash]

Here is a link to the only other completed game I have since I returned to the site. I have a second newbie game since then that is still in the works but also includes a self vote.

As for games before my exodus from the site... No, not every game included a self vote but a lot did. But every game recently has.

If he does then he must be used to having a lot of suspicion surrounding him.

Actually that's right on the money. I find I read people better when analyzing their attacks, so having them direct their attacks my way always helps out. That's not the biggest reason for said self vote, but if it does happen then I'm not disappointed if you catch my drift.

[Korlash]

Wow, that's pretty clever, korlash. But there are other reasons? like what?

Some have already been discussed in the thread, some I'd like to keep private least they be deemed immiscible upon their revelation.

[Korlash]

Immiscible? As in incapable of being mixed? I am confused by this post.

I'm trying to figure out a way to make that word fit to what I meant and I can't find one that makes enough sense. What I meant was inadmissible, we can blame a combination of spell check with my shallow knowledge of court room jargon. Like i said earlier, I like to think I'm smarter then I am... >.>

Long story slightly shorter, certain reasons for things, in this case my self vote, cease to exists once I reveal them.

[Korlash]

What info are you trying to gather? You haven't posed a question, so I can't give you any new answers, your reasoning amounts to "Something about him doesn't seem right" so i can't present a defense against that. And you seem to have answered the biggest question against me, the self vote issue, by saying it's a tactic of mine. If you truely want some info out of your vote I would suggest putting a little into it that I can respond to, thus creating the info.

Ok, literally running out of the house right now so I can't post a lot more. There is a fair bit out now so hopefully when I get home I can start getting down to business!

Remind me to explain this when I'm awake.

Oh crap, he's sleep posting... That's a bad sign...

[Korlash]

*yawn* Some days you know... Just takes it all out of you... Ok I'm going to attempt to sit down here for a while and mull this stuff over... Sadly this could mean a possibility for a totally epic post. Hopefully I can keep it all in bite sized pieces.

[Korlash]

In order of appearance

:
I apologize in advance for the length of this post but this is one way I get myself started in games so... bare with me >.>

Quinn

- Eager to get the RVS stage started yet seems to skip it entirely himself, jumping immediately into 'scum hunting'. While he has managed to make a few comments on the going's on, his primary focus this game does seem to be entirely on Gir. (Doom for those of you who missed that) it's hard to judge off of a small handful of posts mind you, but I have to calls it like I sees it. Aside from that, nothing really stands out. slightly leaning town.

Anka

- A couple things, the vote on Embit. Made to get him pressured and into the game, but removes it after one post, a post he didn't even comment on. Then he says he needs to go back through the thread to see who's been scummy, but comes back with just stuff on Ant. I get finding someone scummy and wanting to get that stuff out there, but then you physically make a post stating "I don't have much to say". You just went over the thread, what about the other people? His interaction with Mrguy seems to fit with the way he's been playing so far, the wanting to get other people into the game, but only makes me more suspicious of his earlier Embit vote. Small scum vibes.

z

- confident enough to vote Ant without given cause, but shys away at the speed it picks up. I can certainly see it from both alignment perspectives, so I'm not putting a lot of weight into that, I don't like however the fact that his reasons given for his vote seem to match the reasons for the rest of the votes on Ant. His coming out with the "he seems like newbie" while jumping off the wagon could be something as well, but I don't think he used the term "newb town" which is usually the red flag I'm looking for. Plus I have to add in the timing issue, he wasn't active during the wagon so him jumping off isn't as bad. Kinda neutral on him.

Poi

- I have to take back what I said earlier. I don't actually think he was discussing something he felt was unimportant, at least not at the time. Forgetting where his vote is is never a town thing, but I don't put a lot of scope in things like that involving random votes. He seems to simply be following along with the game from there, seemingly picking and choosing what to comment on. I have to admit it certainly looks like a more user friendly playstyle then my own, but at the same time it seems like he is missing out on a lot of the going-ons. It wouldn't be as big a deal for me if it wasn't for the fact he too has a "what do you think of the others" post along with a "twiddles thumbs" post. It just begs the question, why waste time literally holding off posting when you could be taking that time to look into others. The comment about putting him at L-1... eh, really don't want to try and read into that one. I'm slightly leaning town on him, probably just because that's how I came into this read, but I'm getting some weird vibes from him so I have to at least put him in the neutral block.

Ant

- First and foremost I'll at this, I don't hand out the newbie cards even in these newbie games. You came here to play the game so I'll treat you the same I treat any other player. I'm not going to let you get away with anything. (some exceptions may apply >.>) However, his newness certainly helps explain his behavior. He's slightly timid in the beginning, when he starts to get into the game his focus goes to the obvious places. I can explain his early focus on the absentees a number of different ways, none more revealing then the next, and his latching to me is predictable as well. I make myself a lightning rod, and a newbie looking for a way to participate will come to me like moths to the flame. The only thing that sticks out is the townie claim and his focus on it. His post 95/96 to be specific. claiming "townie' means nothing. Everyone in this game will claim to be a townie, scum included. And you only said it in response to what I felt was a joke, which by default would make it a joke as well. this is really the only thing that actually stands out from you by me. Leaning slightly town on him.

Gir(doom)

- His post 49 certainly does stand out. His follow up to it in 55 does make sense, I certainly see the logic. First player to FoS, I always give scum cred for that one. I want to call him out for his interactions with Poi, but seeing as how I'm getting weird vibes from the dude as well I have to admit I can understand it. He certainly need some backing to his ant vote, specifically by what he meant about "the defense". i'm leaning slightly scum on him for now but I reserve the right to change that based on his explanation for his ant vote.

Embit

- Nothing really stands out. he needs more posts and I would like perhaps more from him on his reads and opinions of a wider range of people. Neutral.

Mrguy

- I did not like how he came in and tacked on a vote with very little, but his next post rectified that. he also need more posted and more scope as to his other reads. Neutral.

So lets count this down:

Anka
Gir

Poi

z

embit/mrguy

Quin

Ant

Unvote:, Vote: Anka

I need to get a real vote out there, but for the record no one is really standing out there right now. Usually when I do a read up like this I get a very strong forerunner but... this game has been fairly bland. I really want some responses from Anka and Gir though so I'll start there and see what springs up. This is certainly going to be an interesting game though if this keeps up.

[Korlash]

@jumping on the Bandwagon: I did not see Ankamius Post (Post Nr.101), in which he voted for Ant (Number two on the wagon) until after I posted mine, in which I was vote Number three. From my perspective, only zMuffin was voting for Ant (note that I am very comfortable with having ANt at Lynch - 2 - if two people hammer, the chance to find scum among them is incredibly high, and then we exchanged 1:1 again). Plus it puts a lot on pressure on Ant, and if hes scum, he will hopefully crack. If he is not, he will (hopefully) not, and we can analyse who attacked him for what, and who defended him for what reasons.

So you voted someone without checking the votes already on him... I certainly hope you don't think that's an excuse? I also feel the urge to point out it wouldn't be a 1:1, it would be a potential 3:1, but that's semantics I suppose.

My top two scummers so far: -Ant, although now getting a newbish vibe
-Ank

Just because I can't find where you said it, What exactly is the reasoning behind Ank?

[Korlash]

*whistles* and I thought I posted a lot...

Picking and choosing what to comment on, well, of course. It's not like I can comment on every single thing that happens in this game. It doesn't mean I'm not picking up on everything that's going on, or that I'm not reading everything. I comment on what I feel should be commented on. Isn't that normal?

The "what do you think of the others" post was to someone who said they didn't know what to post. I don't know what's suspicious about that. The *Twiddles thumbs* post was because I (as well as a few others) was waiting on zMuffinMan's explanation, and didn't really have anything to say at that point except that I was waiting; a point that Quinnster had also made, albeit with words, in the post before mine. Everything that I felt should have been said had been said, at least from me, so it was just a waiting game for zMuffinMan. To be honest I feel like even though you're not calling me very scummy, putting a scum spin on these posts is slightly suspicious to me.

The Selective commenting thing isn't a huge deal to me, it feels like you are posting just enough to integrate into the game while staying moot on whatever you can. Take for example your interaction with Ant. You ask him a lot of questions, but don't actually seem to point out anything specific. Yet your willing to put him at L-1 for a vague "You seem suspicious."

As for the twiddle thumbs incident, it doesn't matter to who you said it or why, asking someone for opinions of others suggest you are in favor of sharing thoughts on the others. So when there is a lull in a certain topic why not take the time to share your own opinions of others instead of waiting for something to happen. Why let discussion stagnate when you could add something on a different topic while waiting? That sort of thing always stands out to me. And this whole "Quin did it too" thing just sounds like deflection. Just because another player did something similar doesn't excuse you from your actions. Focus on your own explanations of things, don't try to drag someone else into it. It's never a good route to take.

How would that be 3:1?

Well a mislynch, followed by a night kill, followed by a scum lynch, followed by a night kill would be three dead townies to one dead scum. In addition, your comments seem to imply you think a hammer is more likely to come from a scum then a townie, which I find to be statistically untrue. So the ratio is probably in perspective even worse then that.

Korlash: You're the IC, so obviously you're helping us out a lot in your role as IC. However, we shouldn't necessarily take that as a town read; the IC role and the mafia/town role are two completely separate things. As it is, I am having a very, very hard time reading you. I would say neutral.

The trick is to start on the right hand side and read every other word in a clockwise pattern. See I was written in code to confuse my enemies. But shhhh, it's a secret. Can't let this intel get into the wrong hands you know.

Exactly! If you twiddle thumbs, why not post meaningful content instead? [<- this what I think Korlash was trying to say - while I agree with him in principle on that point, I would never have called out anyone on a *twiddles thumb* post]

I've um... managed to call people out on their confirmation posts before... <.< very unique way of looking at things sometimes.

Okay, I'm "slightly scum", but am the second most scummy player in your List. Only Anka gets a "Small scum vibes.", everybody is neutral or town. Wow, when I saw your list, I thought "What?!", but now its "okay, this does not mean much apparently: Nearly everyone is town/neutral".
@Post 49/55: Well, yeah, I explained that already. Does anyone find something about the posts suspicious?
@First to FoS: Okay, that is a really weak reason, is it? I'm too lazy to use the Searchfunction now (and because I really should do my assignement instead of posting here ), but I bet I can point to a ton of Games were the first FoS comes from town. This is a baseless attack, imho.
@Interaction with Poi: What about it? What parts of it want you to call me out for, and why?
@Defense: Mhm. I wanted to say that Ant was shrinking back from his vote on korlash so quick and hefty, that the vote seemed to lack conviction in the first place. Thats what I wanted to say.
@Backing my Vote for Ant: I did in the meantime.

well it was my first reads of the game, I don't usually expect everybody to stand out... could you honestly say the majority of the people wouldn't fall into town/neutral for you right now?

There are two 'scum tells' i do actually take seriously (used to point me in the direction of suspects, not used to actually build cases) those are FoSs and third votes on wagons. You've managed both, and so I'm not surprised you pinged high on my scumdar. I wouldn't say they actually hold a lot of weight, but they certainly aren't baseless. Link

Your post 49 did seem oddly concerned with your own appearance but i can understand the reasons you gave. I don't want to get into your interactions with Poi because I don't see it leading anywhere. As for your ant vote, I can buy that I suppose.

Actually, the reason for my vote wasn't really the same.

For example, Ankamius's vote on Ant was due to Ant's vote-hopping (which he said is pointing fingers everywhere for any reason at all). I don't quite agree with this, and although I don't like Ant's vote-hopping, I don't think his vote-hopping in itself is scummy in any way.

And as far as I can tell, Gir's vote on Ant was due to cautious defense when he unvoted Embit and voted you.

I was really just looking at the reasons he's voting people or calling people town. In particular, his suspicion of you since the beginning of the game came off as disingenuous.

yeah I did you before the other two so I kinda had to remember the wagon from memory. Your reasons given did seem to be bad attacks and vote hoping which did seem to match up with Anka's reasoning. Meant to come back and fix this after the other reads but it was late and I was tired... >.> /excuses...

Korlash is my shepherd. baaa!

Flattery will get you everywhere, as will gifts... Cough it up before I make me some lamb chop muffins. All seriousness though, do you have something to add here?

I'm pursuing this line of questioning because it was something I found noteworthy and wanted to hear what you had to say about it, and wanted to see how you would react to being put under a little bit of pressure.

I was going to echo Z's question but I like this answer.

Korlash – Also willing to put himself out there for discussion's sake. I find nothing scummy about the self-vote at the top of the game, and since then he hasn't been under much scrutiny. Sometimes, I think you hide behind the sarcastic humor, and could get to the point a bit more quickly than you do. Since I find gut reads to be a little useless, I'd like to see him build his case against Doom if he has one, but that may be a pipe dream at this point in the game. Null leaning town.

But taking the roundabout route is way more fun for everyone involved... You see new sites, hear new things, smell new smells... Not always the best case there but the other two are good.

I like the idea of getting a Gir 'case' worked up. With how much he has posted I think i could manage a fairly good read through it. Might be a day or two before I have time though.

[Korlash]

I need to separate some of this out so a quick post to get it off my clipboard.

mrguy888, your case on zMuffinMan is, in my eyes, somewhat weak. Very slight scum vibes for that, but only very slight.

Are you saying slight scum vibes shouldn't be looked into? What is the point of offhandedly jabbing a players 'case' without explaining your thinking behind it?

I'm sorry, I didn't even notice that. I should have payed closer attention to that.

yes you should have, especially seeing as how just a couple pages ago you were ready to put him at L-1. This is certainly the type of stuff you're going to want to keep track of.

I made the post saying I didn't have much to say because I had made a case on Ant and didn't yet have much since then to go on. Since the game was mostly a standstill from the time I voted Ant to my posting of that, I didn't find much else to comment on at that point.

What about the rest of the reads you got in your recent read of the thread? You can't physically read through the thread trying to find who is the scummiest without getting some reads on other people. The only way that happens is if you are only looking for someone to go after.

The difference between my reactions to Embit and Mrguy888 was due to the way they were inactive before their first post after confirmations. I saw Embit online (but without posting) shortly before I placed my pressure vote upon him so that I could get him to post. Mrguy888 hadn't even been on the site since his confirmation and I simply assumed it was weekend business.

I can understand the Guy stuff I guess, but I still don't get why you let Embit off the hook. That actually sounds like a reason to keep the pressure on him, not abandon it.

My vote on Embit was there since I didn't yet have enough scumvibes to vote anyone I wished to lynch. I was more concerned at that moment with making sure everyone was participating either way, so as to give me a complete read later on. I unvoted when I did since my goal was met and there was no more point to it.

Eh, I can kinda see this... That's putting a lot of unfounded faith in Embit on your part though.

I'm curious as to how he views Poiven after his most recent post, and also his opinion on my latest posts. Overall I'm slightly placing him towards town.

He's gone up a bit due to the stuff I just read, as for you i still think you have some 'splainin to do.

So far the rest of my stuff involves the z/guy debunkle. I want to make that a post of it's own, both for length sake and because it's that important. Hopefully nothing got lost in the transfer, I tend to be the only person to epically fail constantly with simple copy/paste.

[Korlash]

The actual reason he voted for Ant is one I really don't agree with either. Vote-hopping in itself is not a scum tell, and is something I don't find scummy. It's actually something I find town are more likely to do than scum, purely because it doesn't benefit scum to take so many different positions. Not that Ant is more likely town because of this, but my issue is that this wasn't a really a good reasont to be suspicious of him in the first place.

This is my biggest issue with you right now muffin pants. This was your reason given for the ant vote:

As for why I originally voted Ant, gut + his early posts were bad (I'm having a hard time reading his attack on Korlash as genuine and his vote hopping wasn't helping my read).

You literally gave three reasons, gut plus bad posts split into ungenuine attacks and vote hopping. My question is why even throw out the "vote hopping wasn't helping my read" if you don't find it scummy? hell, if you actually find it a more town thing shouldn't it have helped your read of him? It doesn't make sense to me.

Well, my only problem with vote-hopping is that it's hard for me to solidify a read when someone does that, so I wasn't really voting him for vote-hopping, just commenting that I didn't like it.

Well if you don't like it... Why is it such a big deal that Anka voted him for it? Either you don't find it scummy but you don't like it, so understanding how someone else may think it's worth a vote shouldn't be that far out of your realm of possibility, or you find it to be more town orriented and it should help you when reading people. You seem to be flailing around this topic a lot.

Not to mention he completely misrepresented one of the reasons for Ant's vote ("You first vote for Mrguy because he has been inactive until now" - completely untrue). Besides the fact this was a complete misrepresentation of the reason for his RVS vote, it was also... a RVS vote... and pointing fingers during RVS... is normal...

While I agree it is a misinterpretation, I don't actually see how it matters. I didn't see Anka physically gaining anything from this misinterpretation. it doesn't actually appear to be done through malicious intent and you seem to be blowing it out of proportion here. Are you actually using this as a reason for your Anka vote, or was this in some way a half-joke?

I don't understand why this had to wait. It couldn't have taken more than a couple seconds more to type that than "Remind me to explain this when I'm awake." It seems more like a cop out explanation to me.

I know where you're going with this but you have to understand his explanation was in retrospect. When you make a vote you are should be inclined to back it up with more then one line of explanation. So you should want to take the time to put effort into it. However, if you're explaining a vote you no longer agree with you don't have the same 'need' to put effort into it. I like the rest of your stuff on him but I wouldn't put any weight into this one.

Because it was a pure gut vote based on what I had read at that point. I was tired and didn't have the energy to justify it at that point, but thought I'd justify it when I was awake.

Oh look Korlash, your foot. let's just throw that in your mouth... >.>

shouldn't you have had justification before you voted? not had to find it after the fact?

So you think, as scum, I explicitly stated that I'm going to sheep Korlash at the beginning of the game, then made it blatantly obvious that I'm sheeping Korlash's vote so that I could fly under people's radars?

I'm playing pretty badly if I'm scum, because this plan obviously failed. Seems rather stupid and pointless when I could just fit in with the town by making up a case on someone - wouldn't be too hard with the amount of content so far.

Well... the wifom SOP here would be to say that you did it so you could some in and say "Do I look that stupid, there's no way I could be scum" but as much as I like wifom this line of thought is pointless.

We'll put it this way since you asked, making up a case is a lot of work, constant and hard, and gives a lot of room for slip ups. This play would be easier, less ways to slip up since you would be following others, and of course you have the "why would scum do this" factor when you are attacked. Of course it's a bit of a gamble but all scum play would be. this would just be less time consuming and less of an effort on your part.

But all that aside I find your "sheeping" stuff to just be jokes. It's early game, you're adding pressure to people, and taking the opportunity to have a quick 'laugh' with a buddy. There is so much more from you we need to be focusing on then this sheeping stuff. Lets try to keep this out of the wifom realm for now.

There is a goldmine in this thread for any scum wanting to "fit in" and find reasons to justify a vote. Take your attack on me, for example... What's interesting to note is that you've changed your view completely from "I want explanations" (when pressed by Poiven for making a weak case) to "Nothing you've done makes sense from a town perspective." and claiming that you think I'm scum on multiple occasions.

Really? He wanted explanations from you, got them, and then changed his perception of you based on those answers? Yeah, how can someone take such logical and sensible thought progression as anything but scum motivated actions! /end unneeded sarcasm

Did you have a point to this? You actually come across worse for wear after saying it...

The obvious implication I saw here is that my 'careless' vote would have been tragic if he was lynched, which would make no sense if Ant actually flipped scum. It makes less sense since Quinn is currently voting for Ant, so we can assume Quinn believes Ant is scum.

I see where you're coming from, I really do. But I think it's a bit of a stretch. Even if Ant had been lynched and flipped scum, that doesn't excuse your vote. It actually makes it seem worse because you put an unbacked vote on scum, strongly suggesting you had knowledge he was scum therefore didn't actually 'need' to back up your vote. Obviously, both ideas are a stretch due to them dealing in hypothetical situations, but you seem to be jumping to a conclusion based on yours... Which never ends good in my experience.

I honestly don't want anyone giving me a break because I'm new. You're right, learning the hard way is learning the best way. Thank you for the heads up.

The town seems split on you. half seem to think you're scum, half seem to think your town. There is literally no one here not wanting to hear your opinion on current events. I would like to hear your take on the z/guy/quin thing, anka, and poi as soon as possible if you please.

Unvote:, Vote: zMuffinMan

There is a lot of stuff I want addressed from you. The flailing with the vote-hopping issue, the vote before justification, and the 'reaches' with anka's misrep, guy's change of opinion, and Quin's inside knowledge.

[Korlash]

I found the case that was posted above me weak. That was my explanation. If you want me to get more in detail about it, I can, but I figured that was relatively specific.

You don't see anything wrong with calling a case weak without saying why? Yes I would like you to go into more detail with things like that, otherwise it becomes baseless slander.

I've mentioned this already, actually, and no, I was not "ready to put him at L-1." If zMuffinMan hadn't said anything, I would not have been ready to put him at L-1, and was saying that I didn't want to even consider it before I saw his reasoning. My post addressing this

Well let me rephrase then. There was a point in which you were debating the thought of putting him at L-1, whether you had at the time wanted to or not is not in question. The fact remains, at this time you knew a vote would have put him at L-1, and yet when you actually voted him, putting him at L-1, you were surprised and did not realize you were doing it. This is just one of those "what?" moments for me, because I don't see how it happened. If you had realized he was at L-2 before, why didn't you realize that when you actually voted him?

That's terrible, Korlash...

It's like every paragraph you wrote contradicts the previous paragraph or is just a terrible attempt at smearing.

Korlash is already synonymous with terrible, so technically it's perfect Korlash.

My question is why even throw out the "vote hopping wasn't helping my read" if you don't find it scummy?

Because it's not helpful.

Well if you don't like it... Why is it such a big deal that Anka voted him for it?

Because it's not scummy.

While I agree it is a misinterpretation, I don't actually see how it matters.

Because he was making a case against Ant for pointing fingers, and used one of Ant's 3 votes at the time (an RVS vote) as evidence of this.

shouldn't you have had justification before you voted? not had to find it after the fact?

I'm not sure how justifying something later implies I didn't have justification at the time. Terrible leading question...

Really? He wanted explanations from you, got them, and then changed his perception of you based on those answers?

That's not at all what happened. There were "major issues" he wanted me to address, but he was pre-supposing I'm either scum or playing in an anti-town way before I gave explanations, so I'm not sure how his perception could have changed based on answers I'd yet to give.

I see where you're coming from, I really do. But I think it's a bit of a stretch. Even if Ant had been lynched and flipped scum, that doesn't excuse your vote. It actually makes it seem worse because you put an unbacked vote on scum, strongly suggesting you had knowledge he was scum therefore didn't actually 'need' to back up your vote. Obviously, both ideas are a stretch due to them dealing in hypothetical situations, but you seem to be jumping to a conclusion based on yours... Which never ends good in my experience.

This just doesn't make sense at all. If Ant had been quick-lynched and Ant had flipped scum, the least of the worries should be me starting the wagon with an unbacked vote.

There was absolutely no reason to ask the question, "What if someone had finished the bandwagon?"

It's a scummy question, no matter how you look at it.

1) So you voted him because he wasn't helpful? It's either that, or you intentionally padded your reasoning for voting with something you admit you didn't find scummy.

2) It was good enough to include in your explanation for your vote on Ant without indication that it wasn't actually one of the reasons. but ok, fair enough.

3) So you're saying the misrep does appear to be done maliciously then. Can you explain exactly how Anka used the reason he gave for Ant's vote against him?

4) Oh wow, I misread that apparently. Somehow in my brain I saw "I didn't have the energy to find justification for it" which is not what you said, my bad there.

5) well duh, they wouldn't be major issues that needed addressing if he didn't see scum intent behind them. You're making no sense on this one.

6) Yeah actually, the quickness of the wagon set aside for a moment, an unbacked vote is a very good buddy link. Your read of that situation seems just as flawed as Quin's. But we're arguing hypothetical here, so i guess it doesn't really matter. Back on topic then, why is it a scummy question exactly? Put into context with the rest of what he said it seems to fit. A 'careless' vote is always tragic, regardless of the outcome (lynched or not lynched, flip town or flip scum) because it makes such a sizable contribution to the game (a vote) without any content placed with it. You rob your votee the chance to respond to your reasoning, make it more difficult for the rest of the town to get an accurate read on you, and set yourself up to make whatever claim you want about your vote later, after seeing some responses to it being placed. None of this is good for the town, all of it is good for you, highly suggestive of scum. Now I've been there, tired as all hell and wanting to make sure I'm of sound mind before I speak to the town, so I'll give you some leeway on that. But trying to weasel something out of what Quin said that isn't there, while actually bringing his vote on Ant into question through that non-existent reason is just underhandedly bad.

[Korlash]

Does the opinion of Dr Doom not matter to you? I don't see any reason to read into this at this time, because it most likely means nothing, but it might prove to be a Freudian slip (perhaps because he is your scumbuddy you don't care what his opinion is) in the light of future information. <--Just a little note for the future. Neglecting Embit though is completely understandable.

Why did this pop into your head? I asked for Ant's input on the three most important things to me at the moment. Not that I don't care, but why would his input on Gir mean anything to me right now? And why is me asking for one person's stances mean I'm neglecting anyone? I think you completely misread that quote.

[Korlash]

My vote on him wasn't because he was vote-hopping, it was something I noted he was doing because it was marring my read on him. As already stated plenty of times.

So Vote hoping mars a person's ability to read a player, but it's suspicious for that person to vote that player. Wouldn't that actually be a way to help better the skewed read?

If I thought it was malicious, I'd still be voting for Ankamius. And I already explained how he used it against Ant (he was making a case against Ant for pointing fingers, and used one of Ant's 3 votes at the time (an RVS vote) as evidence of this.)

He used all three collectively. You're focusing on one. If I believed in the term I might argue strawman here.

How am I making no sense?

You claimed that guy wanted explanations from me and changed his perception based on the answers I gave.

This isn't true. His perception was that I was scum before I gave answers (and he wavered slightly when poiven called him out on it).

And you don't have any opinion at all about the fact that he's tunneled two players (one of them was "unfounded" and the other he has no more questions for) and sees no reason to question anyone else because he doesn't have much other thoughts on the game?

He pre-supposed I'm scum. There was no, "well, I'll wait for your responses and adjust my position because I'm sort of null on you!"

I should have said "progressed his perception" but I think we would be in the same situation regardless.

To prevent useless banter between friends on semi-useless subjects, can you show me where, either before or during his initial questions against you, he physically said he thought you were scum as opposed to thought you were just doing scummy things?

I have an opinion on the tunneling issue, and it's that I don't actually see it as tunneling. Granted, his most recent post hasn't filled me with confidence and I don't like that he came out and ended with a 'I have nothing further to ask' type deal. I'm not surprised with how he's acted due to how he entered the game, so I believe the whole issue it mostly null.

If you did something suspicious to him of course his predisposition of you would be of suspicion. You don't see someone commit what you deem questionable actions and then push them towards the town side of the bracket in your mind.

Yeah, maybe, but how would that be at all bad if Ant flipped scum? At best, it would just mean a policy lynch on me at some point if I couldn't convince people I wasn't his partner. At worst, a cop would need to investigate me to clear me. Either way, what exactly would have been wrong with the lynch if Ant was scum?

Short of it being committed in a time span of hours? I'm thinking the problem isn't the lynch, but the vote itself. If Quinn is literally held up in hypothetical lynches he's on his own.

Yeah, no, I'm not arguing a hypothetical, I'm pointing out the scumminess of Quinn's question and you're ignoring it, by claiming it's possible I would have created a buddy link if Ant had been quick-lynched and flipped scum. So what?

The question is scummy because it entails that Ant's lynch would have been bad, which would not be the case if he flipped scum.

No, you're apparently missing his point by focusing on a potentially poorly phrased question. And the question does not entail that the lynch would be bad, but your vote on it would be. A reasonless vote on a lynch wagon is ALWAYS suspicious regardless of the flip.

Yeah, no, you're going to need to prove to me how a lynch on scum D1 with a single "careless" vote is a bad thing. Otherwise, you're just posting fluff rhetoric. It really shouldn't matter whether or not you know my intentions at the time.

I never said the lynch would be a bad thing, short of the obvious. And why is it just a single 'careless' vote? If the hypothetical lynch happened from zero to hammer in less then 12 hours I'm willing to bet there is a few more suspicious votes on it as well. This is why this whole hypothetical lynch argument is stupid, because you can't build a lynch off one vote.

[Korlash]

Perhaps it would ease your mind if I explained how I (mis-)read it at the time.

It was your 227 post I was referring to, not your 233. Perhaps I should have said "most recent relevant post", 233 was just a mistake, no big deal.

As for this I see what you mean. I just thought that saying any more would result in more walls of pretty much the same as the previous walls. I wanted to wait on other people's opinions on my interaction with z before posting more. I am still in the process of digesting everything that has gone on so far in page ten and will post my thoughts tomorrow.

Looking forward to it. So far I like your posts, we need more of them.

[Korlash]

1. I dont think zmuffin is scum - he was voting me, then Poiven and Korlash placed me high on their scum lists and korlash said "lets tyr to bandwagon Doc Doom", and then immediately after, zmuffin changes his vote. If he were scum, why not keep on the cool wagon that could have been formed?

When did I say that? Seriously... When have I ever called you by your real name? I think you may have me confused with someone else.

5. Apparently, I'm the topranking (or nearly topranking) scummer on at least 3 different peoples lists, yet there is not a single vote on me. Something is wrong with that.

You want to be voted? For the record a lot's happened since my original list, I must admit... I'd almost completely forgotten about you since then.

[Korlash]

I don't even know what you were asking with this first question, and the answer to the second question is no. Because his vote-hopping was noise when I was trying to read his attack on you.

I think we've gotten so far off tangent on this one it's actually entering the realm of pointlessness.

My problem is how you can explain your vote on Ant by implicating vote hopping was a factor, come out saying it wasn't and you don't find it scummy, then use him using it as a reason for your vote on Anka. Perhaps I'm incapable of seeing your explanations for this as anything short of contrived, mostly due to the fact you cannot explain it without falling short on one end. Either your reasons for the Ant vote was carelessly padded, or a reason for your Anka vote seems contradictory. This alone probably wouldn't be that big a deal with me if not for the fact another of your Anka reasons also looks bad.

... He's arguing all three, and one is a blatant misrepresentation, which means he's down to two different times that Ant put his vote on someone. When trying to argue that someone is pointing fingers everywhere, using two examples of this is severely weaker than using three. It completely demolishes the premise that he's pointing fingers at everyone if the only examples he has are a vote on someone he thought was lurking and a vote on you because he thought something you did was scummy.

I'm not going to sit here and continue defending Anka's case, you and him can have a nice chat about that when he gets back. I'm going to take us back to the original topic real quick, and that is your focus on the "misrepresentation." Now I'm the first and foremost advocate of fair and just representation in the game. If a player says "A" you better say that he said "A". But this is one case where a misrep doesn't even remotely appear to be scummy. If you went into Anka's post and fixed the misrep, would it change his point at all? Not a word. So the misrep adds nothing to his case on Ant and so it's a stretch to even suggest it was maliciously done, a.k.a. scummy.

This is two points out of three for your vote on Anka that are questionable. Add to that the fact you voted Anka in the first place solely because you were following me only adds to the idea you just jumped on the first things you saw to justify your vote.

How did you interpret this? Actually, how did you interpret the whole paragraph surrounding this quote?

Sadly I interpret it as a normal reaction any player would have against someone who they thought had done something suspicious. If our opinions differ then I'm afraid we may not get anywhere new with this line of questioning. So i guess perhaps we'll just focus on the tunnel issue.

That wasn't the issue. The issue is that he has been tunneling two players followed by making no effort to advance the game ("no further questions"), the latter of which you've acknowledged and the former of which you're ignoring because it's his playstyle. Granted, it may be his playstyle, but for someone that was attacking me for not giving every thought I had on this game, you don't see a problem with this?

While I wouldn't say I'm 'ignoring' it due to his 'playstyle' I suppose it sums it up fair enough. As for attacking you for not giving your reasons I'm afraid I'm not versed enough in his attacks to remember this off hand. I still think his situation is different then yours somewhat and I doubt he used those words exactly so I'm willing to bet it isn't what you make it appear to be here.

Let me get back to my problems with you, and that is your blatant exaggeration of 'facts'. How exactly does a person tunnel someone in two posts? I think 15 hours is a mighty small amount of time to be judging someone's focus levels don't you? To even suggest he was tunneling Gir, or even you now that I've taken a glance at his ISO, is just a gigantic falsehood. He has attacked two people, that does not mean he has tunneled them. Would I have liked for him to come in and give me loads of info on everything he thought of ever? yeah. But I'd like for Anka to not be absent right now, and Poi to stop being so dang mysterious, and for Gir to have not misquoted me. I would have liked for all this to have happened, but I won't lie about what they actually have done because of it.

See, the problem here is that you acknowledge that a quick-lynch doesn't just happen with a single careless vote, yet you refuse to believe Quinn had anything other than benevolent motives for asking the question.

And you refuse to believe it was just a question. Considering I'm the third party here and my explanation doesn't dive into conspiracy theories to explain it, which one of us do you think is really the blind one on this issue?

[Korlash]

I need to look into your scum meta. If this is town-Korlash, this is bad play from town-Korlash.

You're SOL there bub. I've been in one completed game since my return to site, as town, two I've died in, as town, and X number still alive in as 'town' obviously though that's up for discussion. If you want to go gallivanting around in my games from a year ago be my guest. If you want to talk about 'bad play', krap logick korlash from back in the day... whew... he's got some of that up his sleeve.

Because the whole case of 'pointing fingers everywhere' is demolished completely when all Anka would have had is Ant voting for a lurker and Ant voting you because he found something you did scummy. This isn't pointing fingers everywhere, and at least with the third vote (and reason) he had a small case on Ant doing something that isn't at all scummy. I needed to clarify his intentions because it was a blatant misrepresentation. Ankamius clarified it. I accepted it. I moved on. The only reason it's still being discussed is because you're trying your very hardest to find some scum motivation in my actions when there simply isn't scum motivation.

Wait Anka clarified it? I missed that one. Scratch that off my list of things I needed from him then. And trying to force scum motivation? I'm pushing you for having the majority of your reasons for voting Anka sound forced and contrived.

Yes, it does, because at the time I mentioned he was tunneling, he had done absolutely nothing but attack two people, no comments on anything else in the game, no reads on anyone else, no questions to anyone else, no answering questions from anyone else unless they directly related to the two people he was tunneling, and I don't think this a misrepresentation at all. He was either absolutely convinced that no one else could possibly be scum (which would explain why he focused all his efforts on it and chose to ignore everything else in the game) or there's some other motivation behind his actions (hint: can you possibly think of a reason for this?). You say it's not tunneling, so explain. He has no further questions for me, he has no comments on my recent posts, but his vote is still on me and he still finds me scummy. At least now that his tunneling has been pointed out he's started broadening his play, but what he was doing was blatant tunneling.

So you claim he is tunneling because he came into the game motivated to do something without pausing to give us a breakdown of his play by play. *shakes head* And you say I'm playing bad.

It wasn't just a question. There was an obvious implication behind the question, and you're choosing to ignore it.

Because you're making up this 'obvious implication'. And not only that, but you seem to actually be putting weight into it like it means something. You took the question out of context, put it back in and the only obvious implication is that he thought your vote was careless. Could it be seen your way? yeah. But it could be taken a number of ways, which is why you need to take the rest of the paragraph into consideration to judge the implication.

I don't even understand why you're defending him here. Surely he's capable of defending himself. And nowhere did I imply he must be scum even if I am right about the implications of the question he asked.

I'm surprised it's taken you this long to attempt this. Most people try this deflection early on in my attacks, I was starting to hope you were a better player then the rest of them. Oh well, disappointed again.

You implied he had inside knowledge that Ant was town, which is only possible as scum. I also didn't like when you brought his vote on Ant into question. That appeared to be a subtle move on your part there as well, hence my eagerness to get more out of you.

[Korlash]

I'm confused on how it's a reason to keep the pressure on even more. He had posted and created his own opinion on the game so far, so further pressure to get him to contribute would seem to be rather pointless.

So what, you find one tiny post sufficient contribution then? You had already seen him online without posting, what's to stop that trend from returning? If you had really wanted him to get involved I would have expected an attitude similar to what z is showing with Guy. An expectation of a wider range of subjects. I would expect some sort of "Give me your opinion on this topic, or these players, or this aspect of the game" instead you just remove your vote... It doesn't seem like you really wanted anything from him.

I'm not sure how far into WIFOM territory I went into here, but it still disconcerns me.

Well that's all an irrelevant hypothetical discussion anyway so I hope you're not basing anything on it.

I'm close to voting for zMuffinMan at this point, but I'm going to wait until I see his responses before I put him at L-1.

Oh joy, another one of these... They always fill me with confidence!

I'm also wondering why you think we shouldn't find you scummy for making a vote like that out of the blue before you explain it.

And I'm wondering why you think you should find me scummy for making a vote like that out of the blue before I explain it.

And I still can't believe it's not butter!

There, it's dead. Nobody continue it....

[Korlash]

Yeah, except that you've given up on explaining why they're forced and contrived.

I just don't want to continue going in circles. I say "blah blah blah" you say "blah blah blah" rinse and repeat. I have my laundry list of suspicions from you, your responses, and my analysis of them so I'm good thanks.

You say it's not tunneling, so explain. He has no further questions for me, he has no comments on my recent posts, but his vote is still on me and he still finds me scummy.

If you want to say he's been tunneling you I'll disagree until the cows come home but I'll admit I can see how you feel that way. Given his recent actions it would be fair for you to claim that it "appears he is tunneling on you" without my opinion meaning jack on it. However, you began with and to this day still maintain that he was tunneling on Gir, and for that I will kick you in the crotch and call you retarded or scum anytime you want. The definition of tunneling goes something along the lines of "A blind and unrelenting focus on one individual while oblivious to all other factors. Borderline obsession." The mere fact he unvoted Gir after just two posts proves it was not a tunnel. And to attempt to falsely call it so in an attempt to set up a recurring theme of his to justify your own opinion of his attacks on you is suspect.

I'm really not taking it out of context at all. It was a scummy question.

You certainly seem to be and no it wasn't.

This was never implied. It was a possible interpretation but it was never implied.

You're right. Your 216 dealt with the logic of the situation and rested on the assumption that Quin's feelings on Ant were that he was scum and not town. So the actuality of this issue is that his question didn't make sense to you, not that it made him scummy.

It is interesting to note however that you are now calling the question scummy, and the implication therefore does at least exist now... Which would be like 5 seconds before you said this...

Ok dealt with that. I'll make it plain and simple, I like z as a suspect. Two votes in a row given without reason, only to have the reason's given appear questionable. And a history of what I still believe to be wild exaggeration, not as bad as I felt at the beginning of my conversation with him, but I'd hardly say it's been cleared up. However, we have to add the fact that even though I find these to be at times seemingly opportunistic (As in two of the times they were against people attacking him) I get the feeling he actually believes what he is saying, which lessens the intent behind them. Plus, z seems to be the majority shareholder in this town's suspicion level. We almost have him top of the list scum unanimously. I rarely like things that appear too easy, especially when I start to have semi-second thoughts.

Unvote:

I need to take a closer look at the people not voting z. More in a second.

[Korlash]

Ok let's start with the person I was waiting for the most, Poi. His original stance towards the Z 'case' was that it was weak. In post 232 he completely 180's that without any real indication of why he originally thought it was weak. This is a point I'm really torn on. On the one hand flipping your opinion like this as soon as the wagon starts to build seems scummy, but it was still while the wagon was in the early stages (before Quin's vote) and before the others(Gir, Anka, and Ant) had given their opinions of z. His recent stuff on z seems legit enough but I don't like him ending it with "You being at L-2 is reason to keep my vote on Ant." Still, other then that and the issue I'm torn with he seems on the level. This is a more clear read then I figured I would get with him so well done to me. Maybe you aren't so mysterious after all.

Since we left on a vote with Ant, let's visit him next. His 257 doesn't outright call z possible scum, but the way he ends it seems like he is keeping his foot in the door just in case. Short of this and his 269 though I don't think he has even mentioned z. While I certainly think the way he ended his z read is slightly suspicious, it isn't how I picture scum's role on this wagon.

Anka next. His 261 claims he is finding z scummier due to his most recent posts, but seems to produce a very lackluster clump of contribution along with it. He then edits in a 'I'm close to voting you but I'm going to play it safe around L-1'. The first point he makes in 266 seems outright contradictory 'if we lynch a townie we gain info, but if we lynch scum it will be hard to gain info' seem to be what he said essentially. That makes no flipping sense what-so-ever. I have to say I'm really not liking Anka's actions surrounding this wagon. Seems to be playing the subtle hand pushing the wagon along but without letting his own hands get too dirty.

Gir... I don't even have a clue where to start. I can't see how you can mix up two players 'entirely' if you are actually doing an honest read. I can certainly see how it can happen if you're giving a BS read though just to look good. Keeping players straight isn't a high priority when you're not looking for real evidence you know. Still, even given that I can accept people make mistakes. What I can't accept here is a key factor that allowed this mistake to happen, and that is the fact in his 252 where he (if I understand his 256 correctly) called z scum but mistakenly labeled it was guy he said nothing specific to back it up. Not a one. A vague "A lot of what he is saying is damning" and even a "I would lynch him at deadline" without a single shred of evidence as to why. The only plus side to him I see is that due to the name switch his vote wasn't actually plugging onto the bandwagon, but that's only a small amount of credit for him.

Overall I have to:

Vote: Gir(Doom)

I really need you to explain the whole name switch and how it happened, plus give your accurate read and response to the z wagon/case asap. I also want to know if it was simply the name, so therefore the case should still exist on z, or if you physically confused actions as well making the case mostly worthless.

Second would come Anka for what seems to be a subtle ploy to push the wagon forward, followed by Ant for irrelevant reasons and Poi gets fourth by default.

[Korlash]

1) This is what he did, and I've already explained why I think he gave it up after two posts. Regardless, the length of time he tunneled Gir is irrelevant; he was still blindly focusing on Gir while ignoring the rest of the game.

dude, you have a very narrow mind here. By your own logic then Embit is guilty of tunneling Ant in his first contribution post as well. Have you even taken the fact he missed a huge chunk of the game at first? That coming in and immediately commenting on the entire game could take hours and make a huge f'ing post to boot? Would you deny that when you enter a game late going after your biggest 'scum read' would be a way to 'get a foot in the door' and start to add some contribution?

2) I don't even consider tunneling a scum tell if the person is doing it for legitimate reasons. The issues I have are:
a: He has no further questions for me, he has no comments on my recent posts, but his vote is still on me and he still finds me scummy.
b: He's accusing me of playing in an anti-town manner because I'm not giving all my thoughts on the game, but he himself is not giving all his thoughts on the game.
c: The inconsistency in his read on me (based on his reaction to Poiven's post after his initial vote on me). You can claim he didn't think I was scum until I responded all you want, but that's a load of crap.

I already said I don't have a problem with your accusing him of tunneling you. that's your thing, go for it and see where it goes. If things keep up like they have been I wouldn't be surprised if you manage a reasonable case out of it. But you're not going to get away with saying he was tunneling Gir, it's not going to happen. My advice for the sake of the game and the legitimacy of your attacks is just to let that one go and focus on this stuff.

Are you implying town players could never do something scummy? Really?

No I'm not. are you intentionally trying to bastardize my posts here? If you are I wish you good luck, though you'll lose. And I don't think you have enough face saved to survive that defeat. best to keep things civil i think.

There is no implication that he's necessarily scum. He asked a scummy question, that's that. I maintain it was a scummy question regardless of your insistence it isn't. I've explained why it's scummy, all you've done is essentially say he might not have realised it's scummy so it's not scummy.

We're just arguing semantics yet again z. If you say someone did something scummy, you have implied the chance of them being scum has increased. Are you outright saying they are 100% scum? Hell obviously no. If that implication didn't exist, there would be no reason to discuss the action, and so no reason for you to point it out. The implication is one of the driving forces behind the entire concept of scum hunting, but like I said, This is all semantics really.

My note mainly focused on the change in how you seemed to view the question before to how you view it now and the ironic contradiction of sorts it seemed to create.

[Korlash]

The problem being that generally once your foot is in the door, you don't stand there with your foot in the door doing absolutely nothing.

He had given two posts since then, one to defend himself and one dealing with your wagon, I don't think "absolutely nothing" is the right claim here. Although I wish you luck with your generalizing the players in the game though. Really hope that pans out for you.

He clearly showed the tunneling mindset, even if he let up after two posts on Gir. And I do think he'd have continued tunneling Gir had Quinn not subtly coached him out of it.

Just think of all the possibilities we have at our disposal when we can start using what we think someone might have done as evidence. Can you explain to me the "tunnerling mindset" and how Guy showed it?

Asking questions = bastardising your posts. Noted.

And don't you forget it!

OK, and?

Oh right, I forgot. You like to shave off most of what a person says and just look at one tiny piece by itself. I'll remember that next time. Gotta get straight to the point with you least you stray off the path and get lost.

There was never an implication that he is scum, just that he asked a scummy question and is accountable for explaining it. And yes, he is accountable for explaining it himself, not having you ride in on your stallion defending him so he doesn't need to worry about it.

Hey now, if you get to have a little buddy in Ant why can't I have one in Quin? Er... Wait... Aww I lost mine. Can I have a new one?

You have consistantly said that there are protown reasons for withholding information, but you have yet to explain why withholding information isn't scummy. I am not the only one putting suspicion on you for this. If you show me an acceptable reason why withholding information on day one is not scummy, I will accept it.

There are pro-town reasons... Why is it that people accepted me when I said it but are giving z such a hard time... Feels like a double standard...

[Korlash]

Alright I too am 'waiting' for Gir to answer some of my questions concerning his most recent post. I want to go back and actually look into him but I really want that stuff first. I also want to complete my z wagon read by looking into Guy and Quinn's roles on it but with Quinn gone I have to admit my interest in it has decreased a little. Still, not good to leave stuff only half done... I'll try and get to that as soon as I have a spare moment. er... lot's of moments pushed together I suppose.

Why the vote on Doom? And I still don't quite understand the pattern of what you quoted.

I would like to second this question, mostly because I don't understand the whole quote list either. I'm already paranoid after how the z wagon went I don't need people voting with me without explaining why now...

I still find everyone else except for Dr Doom and Ant more protown than proscum. I'm finished waiting for Dr Doom and I still find him scummy, so VOTE: Dr Doom

z wagon starts falling apart and you hop onto the next one with no more then I "I still find him suspicious!" What are the exact reasons again? Also, why are you finished waiting for him? He had just had a prod requested so your vote won't make a difference in when and if he posts.

[Korlash]

This is my problem with that mindset. You're essentially saying, why play the game day one? And then the contradictions start rolling in from there. You can't hope to lynch scum, but let's lynch the scummiest one! It will be totally random if you put effort into it, so just lynch willy nilly so it isn't random!

The whole defeatist mindset on day one is just plain stupidity. Theoretically, day one is when the most pro-town players are alive. So on paper our lynch today 'should' have the highest chance of actually hitting scum. Granted there are factors that diminish that greatly but I prefer to look on the bright side.

Now I have 2 reasons to vote Dr. Doom : not posting in the thread and buddying everyone. Next in line is Ant.

Do you mean not posting recently, or not posting overall? And what do you mean budddying? Also, why Ant?

[Korlash]

I also got bad juju after seeing how many people one right after the next came out with "Guy is looking town" without saying why. I can't say I actually have an opinion myself one way or the other because, even throughout our discussion, I never really paid any attention to him specifically.

As for the case on Gir, I wasn't aware there was one. My vote was placed without a case and with only a handful of reasons behind it and a promise of a case to come after he posts. So far I don't like the bandwagon that has developed from it. As for what I want him to answer, it mainly his screw up post. What he really meant, whether it was just a name mix up or if nothing he posted on you and guy was accurate, what his true feelings on you were. That sort of stuff... It's all outlined in my z wagon breakdown post.

Not posting recently. He is always giving "good posting" opinions. Ant is next in line if the majority of the town think Dr. Doom isn't the best lynch today. I'll be stating my opinions when time arises to target. Until then, consider that as a FoS.

So you only plan to tell us if it comes to it... As for recent posting, he doesn't appear to have been on site since his last post... What if it is some external force outside the game preventing him from posting?

[Korlash]

Just finished a hectic couple of days. Good to see some signs of life from Gir but honestly, radio silence would give me a better feeling then a one line promise...

exactly Korlash. The chances are he could be unable to post because of an outside reason. Then again, I have not seen a good scumtell on anyone. He also could be lurking.
Will see if L-1 puts him on any more pressure.

Do you have any real solid reason to believe he is scum other then "He could be lurking"? An L-1 pressure vote is only acceptable if you actually feel the person has a somewhat decent chance of being scum. In addition, because it's L-1 you have to have some sort of specific goal for the pressure. Answers to some specific questions, or responses to some specific comments for example. The whole "vote to see what type of reaction I get" doesn't work when you're physically stuffing the guys head into the guillotine.

Saying that you need a

reasoning

to vote is a common mistake, there are numerous

reasons

to vote and getting 'vibes' is one of them.

You don't need reasons to vote because there are lots of reasons to vote? Every vote has a reason, every single one of them. Which is why it is unacceptable to not reveal it when it's made. There are a few certain reasons that may be best left hidden, but whenever those are made there are always a few more you can throw out to keep the real ones in the dark. And there are very very few reasons that justify not revealing them when asked to.

However, guy said that the "vibe" reason wasn't good enough, not that it wasn't a reason. And for the most part I agree. If you get a vibe from someone you can always state what the person has done to give you the vibe, what has been specifically said, why the vibe is worth voting for, yadda yadda yadda.

On Mr. Doom, I am not concerned by what happen to him (the person behind the name), sure it's sad if he has personal problems but I am not related to him. Remember that the rule is the same for everyone :

That's fair enough, although if you truly do think he is scum because he hasn't been posting then you should by default be concerned with what happened to him because that's his explanation. I realize you don't have any high hopes of actually hitting scum, but you aren't actually prone to ignoring facts just to get a lynch to happen are you?

I'm here, I'll post more content later on/by the ned of today!

... Technically, he could be telling the truth. For all I know the 'ned of today' occurs sometime on Friday... /joke to lighten the mood

I shall explain deeper. What I mean is that I don't like the bandwagon on Gir, but he may just be lurking scum. So, even though he could not be posting for reasons outside the game I decided to put him at L-1, someone could quick hammer him (unlikely) or he could almost insta reply under pressure after not replying for some time. It happened. So I am keeping my vote on until Gir gives me a logical reason to take it off.

Typically if you don't like a wagon you don't tend to jump on it. What about the wagon specifically don't you like? do you think that, while waiting for Gir, maybe exploring that would be a viable option?

You don't like the bandwagon, but you put him at L-1? That doesn't make sense. And I'm not sure if L-1 will make him reply any quicker than L-2 would.

In the event he is intentionally avoiding the game but following along, putting him at L-1 over L-2 for "not posting" would have a good chance of netting a response. As we actually have yet to see that response I would safely assume that he is not actually doing that.

Where on Earth is everybody?

Same thing I'd like to know.

I'm about 44 miles from the old Tony Romas... And yes I realize I'm the only person in this game to get that joke...

[Korlash]

Reasoning =/= reasons. I guess the meaning of reasons isn't totally the same in English. So replace reasons with incentives and keep reasoning.

An incentive to vote would still be a reason to vote and so it would still be subject to all scrutinies that other 'reasons' are.

Last newbie game, the lurker was scum.

My last newbie game had two lurkers, one town and one scum. There were also two townies that posted very infrequently during day one. 'lurking' if defined simply as 'not posting' is equally spread out among factions especially in newbie games where the players don't know what to do or how to do it. If you want to make a more structured definition of lurking then it might make more sense as evidence.

Are you sure he isn't lurking ? Maybe you should define lurking better ... Because he is doing it as I write. Whether he is scum or not remains to be seen but I would like to see him lynched. Otherwise I don't think that you are helping the town right now. Stalling the game isn't what we need. Making assumption on why he isn't posting isn't either.

Conventional lurking, as in scummy lurking, would be loosely defined as not contributing to the game while keeping tabs on its going-ons. This is essentially known as active lurking in most circles. The player will post infrequently little tid bits that don't add anything to the game but allow him to keep face and avoid prods. Just hypothetically speaking, if a player is hit by a bus walking home from work he would be unable to post for that week long coma he falls into. Would you say he is lurking scum for that? Pure absence is never indicative of alignment, active lurking is.

And I think this is the worst thing I have with this wagon right now. You say it remains to be seen whether he is scum or not but yet you still want him to be lynched. Shouldn't you care more about being able to more confidently say he is scum before you call for his lynch?


Lets see... eight days left... Should be enough to see some conclusion to this. My vote on Gir is based on the bad wagon on Z so I'm finding removing it for the same reason to be difficult. There is enough people against the wagon that I don't see us cutting this day short any time soon and with as many of us awaiting his return I'm fairly confident if need be he'll be replaced before the day is up.

I have recieved my prod. I'm still stuck until Dr Doom posts. My apologies for not being able to contribute more at this time.

... Why are you not able to contribute exactly? Gir isn't the only player in the game...

[Korlash]

Wait, what did Gir have to do with my wagon?

You can take a look at my 275 if you want specifics.

Theres not much to say, us townies don't have alot of good scumreads.

Well tell us your bad scum reads then so we can talk about those.

Not a fan of peanut butter in general.

... So... you eat your jelly sandwiches bare? Talk about scummy....

[Korlash]

Otolia has given good reasoning for his vote and I don't find anything particularly scummy in his posts. He's giving me more town than scum vibes up to this point.

... Good reasoning? Isn't his reason essentially 'lurking'? Didn't he admit to not even caring what the reason was for said lurking? How can you honestly classify that as 'good reasoning'? I have a hard enough time classifying it as acceptable, let alone good.

I'm a VT. I find doom the most logical person to put on L-1. Firstly, if someone quick hammered him then we could call them scum, secondly if he almost insta replys after I put him at L-1 and gurantee content and does not deliver, it comes out as scummy. It happened. :/

For the record, claiming, even claiming VT, is bad. Why did you feel the need to come out with a claim?

I would guess it's because he wanted to let us know he's a VT. Though I can't be sure about that.

Your snarky yet carefree and lovable retorts are a breath of fresh air amidst the scrolling mass of gray and bleakly dull comments cluttering the world. Don't ever change you tenacious scamp you. *ruffles hair*

Ok, the only thing i have to add right now is about zMuffinMan. I don't think voting for someone because you FEEL like it is a good enough reason.

Maybe I'm forgetting... Didn't he give more then just 'because I feel like it' as a reason?

and I definitely want you to tell me why you're not a fan of peanut butter, because it is a godly paste that only evil people dislike.

Thank you... Somebody had to say it... %#$@ing paste haters... living off the state... Go back to Russia!

Ank, I love how I follow the bandwaggon to help you get your content by pushing him into further pressure but you switch your vote to me just for me putting him on L-1.

:/

You don't find putting someone at L-1 for the sole reason of netting more content suspicious? Can you as of yet confidently say you feel Gir is scum?

[Korlash]

Yeah my bad, I had gotten it confused with your vote on Guy in which you did list Feeling like it as one of your plethora of 'reasons'.

He has posted more reasons than just lurking, but that was what he was put under the most fire for.

such as.... dot dot dot... more dots... damn, that is a lot of dots...

[Korlash]

The lurking by itself is scummy simply because of the circumstances.

Darn circumstances *shakes fist*

but enough pointless references... Why is it scummy 'because of the circumstances'? I would say given the circumstances the lurking is relatively unscummy. Aside from his "ill post later" post it's almost a cut and dry game abandonment, which in a newbie game I usually take as a sign of town, although I have been realizing it's more of a null tell as of late.

Otolia's other reason was that Dr Doom was buddying people throughout the game.

That might have merit if I had ever seen the actual evidence or citations.

[Korlash]

Otolia's quotations on his first content post shows one example of his buddying. He ommitted the rest because of redundancy and the fact that a lot of it is similarly to exactly like that.

Did he actually say this or is this your interpretation of his actions? And why would showing a scummy pattern qualify as redundancy that needs omitting? That seems like prime evidence, a head runner for a case.

Come on Korlash, you can come at me if you wish to. But my best guess is that you are too busy testing the water to actually commit. Anyhow, don't worry, you are my major scumread for the moment over Dr. Doom.

Ha ha, that's my line. Although this isn't the threat you think it is. Lashing out at the person questioning your motives and actions instead of taking the small amount of time to explain them yourself just paints you as the defensive omgus type. The ironic thing is that my focus wasn't even on your inaction, but on Anka's flawed acceptance of them. But ok, I'll bite.

So if I get this straight I'm apparently your biggest scum read, yet you've never mentioned it before. You waited until I seemingly attacked you to bring it up. That's poor timing on your part I think. Would you care to provide evidence of Gir's budding up to people as well? Dealing with your middleman here is a great way to get more insight on him but I feel if I want the actual answers I'll have to get them straight from the source.

[Korlash]

No, I don't have sufficient tells to start something on you and you are a good player, though I think you are faking the poor timing/OMGUS arguments. We both have been waiting for someone to start something but I don't want either of us to be under fire. It's way too early for that. Considers it a FoS if you wish.

If you need evidence, you can look for them by yourself. I'm not trying to launch a wagon on him so I don't need to convince anyone. His absence is stalling the game though, and I would really appreciate a hammer OR a satisfactory replacement.

You think I'm scummier then Gir, yet you don't have sufficient tells to start something on me? You aren't trying to start a wagon but you want someone to hammer? You seem to be talking in circles...

I LIKE TACOS.

Tacos rule... So why did you claim exactly?

[Korlash]

to defend myself. I can't defend off much because I don't find I did anything wrong, so I just said im a VT because I am one.

Teaching moment: If you are a vanilla, by telling everyone you are one you make it easier for the scum to kill the power roles. If you're a power role, claiming vanilla now would cast suspicion on a real claim later. And if you're scum claiming Vanilla now hinders possible fakeclaiming opportunities later. There is no reason, regardless of your actual role, to claim without reason. And now we know! 'cause knowledge is power!'

What did you feel you needed to defend against and why did you think claiming 'vt' would do anything?

You claim when you weren't even wagonned. Claiming in L-1 is a questionable method as a VT, but claiming when you aren't targeted is just a very bad play. You have to learn to get better and that's the purpose of these games but it doesn't mean I'm gonna let you walk away with that, I am entitled to play for my WinCon and you will be a liability in LyLo.

*shakes head* Circles man... Outright ignoring scum reads to push what seems to be just 'policy'... Really questioning that WinCon you speak of here.

[Korlash]

Ignoring scum reads ? I don't understand, maybe you missed the part when I wrote that :

In post 365 you called me your "major" scum read yet in 367 you essentially say you don't want to start anything with me. That is blatantly ignoring a scum read.

And why would you question my WinCon ? My WinCon is unquestionable. Maybe you meant that you question whether or not I have the same as you ? Well I can't guarantee that because I don't know yours. (See what I did there ? Exactly the same kind of 'hey buddy, I'm town' statement as you did. How cool am I now ?)

It was simply a subtle jab at what you said. A bit of what we might call the "small talk" of attacking each other. Mildly irrelevant banter there to simply attempt to pry a reaction or simply add fuel to the fire so to speak. The implication would be that any wincon that prides lynching essentially random people over the scummy people would not belong to a townie.

I would like to know how what I said in any way qualifies as a "hey buddy, I'm town" type of thing.

I know we both have fun staring at each other like hungry lions but unless you are willing to commit today, I suggest we ally towards a common goal.

I can't help but think these "I dare you" posts are just a way to downplay what I'm saying... What do you qualify as "willing to commit"?

1. Get Mr. Flay to post here, if he doesn't pick my PM tomorrow, we will have to contact VKR.
2. Judge Dr. Doom's replacement scumminess. Newbie scums are somehow more susceptible to flake because they aren't able to deal with the pressure knowing they are guilty.
3. If Dr. Doom's replacement pass the bar, we will have to lynch jakesh97. Both for allowing him to start a new game without dragging a VI board on his back and for getting rid of a possible massive WIFOM, if he ever reach LyLo.

If you didn't actually think Gir was scummy then why would we have to judge his replacement? Wouldn't just getting a replacement mostly relieve all your suspicion?

Ant has been active lurking his way through D1 and, especially from his recent posts, I don't get the feeling he's actually trying. Gir, on the other hand, seems to just be inactive.

Well to be fair, even scum have to try... So I have a hard time seeing this as an actual indication of scumminess. I'll try to take time here tomorrow to look into him more.

eh, ill get better as time goes on, thats what these newbie games are for

And they are great for making crappy players like me seem moderately good by comparison!

@MOD: Mrguy888 has consistantly been unable to post during weekends, so I excluded him in the prod request.

Really man, you take the time to make a post explaining to the mod why you didn't ask for so and so to be prodded but you can't make any significant contribution to the actual game... 16 posts were made between your prod request and your last post and you can't think of anything to add to the game? Also, I'm finding it weird you haven't said anything about Jake's claim... That seems like a significant action for the person you are voting to do and you seemed to have just let it pass by...

Unvote:

The vote was made with the most important goal of getting info from the Z/guy scandal and left on for other semi-nonimportant reasons. With the replacement I don't see a lot of point in it anymore. I should be able to find a new home for it tomorrow if I can tear myself away from my project to get some reading time.

[Korlash]

Accomplishing nothing. Ouch. What would you two define as accomplishments?

Looks like Z may have just had a minor slip.

Really, I didn't see anything. What slip exactly?

[Korlash]

The scum already KNOW who we are. They don't NEED information. The town does. This is scummy as hell.

While I've never been against sharing info and reads, I get where z is coming from. Knowing the extent of the townie players' reads going into night can directly influence scum kills. Obviously, it's your choice on which style you prefer. Both have good and bad sides I suppose. I guess you can look at it this way, the scum knows who we are, but not what we think...

Ok so I took another look into Ant. Not liking that route. His intial vote hopping doesn't really strike me as suspicious and his reaction to z's vote on him way back when doesn't seem like it came from inexperienced scum. There might be something to the active lurking angle, but his recent absence and his earlier attack against inactive people make it seem less likely to have come from a scum point of view.

Also took the time to look into Quinn. Didn't see as much as I hoped. At least nothing worth talking about today. But I'm not going to beat around the bush...

Vote: Oto

It's fairly cut and dry. He doesn't want to start anything with me but still says we should focus on the scummy players and includes me in that list. Talk about testing the waters. I can understand the playstyle of going after 'lurkers' day one but I can't understand not caring about the reasons behind it. I always hate it when people walk away from a discussion with me with some sort of lame line like "I can't deal with you anymore, it's all there if you read it" blah blah blah. Last guy who did that ended up being scum so I guess I can have my cake and eat it too in this case.

[Korlash]

As for what I said about NKs, that's just common sense. If you can't mislynch them, they're a threat to you, and if everyone thinks someone is town, that means you can't lynch them. On the other hand, if everyone thinks someone is scum, they're not threat to you.

Knew there was a reason I liked you muffinpants. You get it.

[Korlash]

I realize that scum kills are potentially influenced by how town reacts to different players, and it aids them in sowing distrust - they obviously want to create as much of that as possible - but I couldn't disagree more on reads being more beneficial for scum than they are for town.

Who said they are more beneficial for scum then for town? My argument is there is a sort of good/bad argument on both sides and Z's simply appears to be that nearer to deadline less reads outweighs more reads.

[Korlash]

Answered:

Wait wait wait, in your post 411 you knew what z was going to say in post 412? You can't use statements made after the fact to justify why you said something.

I don't see how the deadline should affect people's assessments on potential scum, nor do I see how reads are now more beneficial for scum than they were at (insert time here that is further from the deadline). Any particular reason for this? I'm not seeing it.

Well the town's reads right at deadline are going to be their reads coming into day 2. Their reads on page six however, would have changed drastically by the end of the day. So those opinions wouldn't be the same coming into day two. It should be obvious how scum can use this to their advantage.

I'm not going to say it's best for everyone to keep their opinions to themselves, but I can certainly see why some people adopt this playstyle.

[Korlash]

@Korlash : Snif, Snif. Otolia doesn't want to talk to me anymore ... Mommy Mommy ... Otolia doesn't want to talk to me anymore. You get the idea ? I proposed you numerous times a path to walk away from this, but you don't want to. Fine. At least you finally voted.

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad really... Your prose suggests a lack of creative vision and your timing is just way off. You need some acting classes or something. Although to be fair, portraying Korlash properly is something even highly experienced actors have yet to pull off correctly.

I'm still waiting for your reads, you are not exempted from them just because zMM don't feel like being useful now..

But providing reads would be accomplishing something. I wouldn't want to take your biggest attack away from you, otherwise I might have no chance of ever getting something useful out of you.

Ant shall get his ass here and post content : VOTE: Ant

I thought we were moving onto Jake after Gir's replacement showed he was a good boy. So were you just finding an excuse to throw his name out there before or do you just like jumping on the biggest wagon right now?

[Korlash]

Stop evading the point and post your reads. You aren't going to make me forget that scums refuse to answer questions and demands. Whereas I agree that my writing style isn't marvelous, I believe you can still understand me when I write : Post your reads.

Naw. we still have the better part of a week. Right now I like the results I'm getting ignoring you. Why is it when you skip out on answering me it's all fine and dandy, but when I just postpone answering you it's cause for bolded caps shouting match time thing?

Jakesh97 can be lynched from now one to before LyLo is the cop finds nothing or if we don't have better lynch. Whereas Ant is lurking and his a better lynch. Adaptability is my strong point. Are you trying to launch a wagon on me to prevent a lynch of your teammates ?

Are you joining the Ant wagon to protect yours?

PS : Your title is perfectly describing you ...

Yup.

[Korlash]

Because you are a scamming scum. Point is, I never really stopped answering you. So your point is moot like your brain.

Delving into personal attacks so soon? I had high hopes for you man. And you did stop answering me. You used that "I'm done talking to you" thing to avoid like 3 or 4 questions/points. I doubt you'd be willing to elaborate any on the whole "scamming scum" thing but it wouldn't be in me not to ask... so... what exactly makes me a "scamming scum"?

[Korlash]

If you want me to answer particular questions then hit me up and this time, differentiate the normal ones from the rhetorical ones. And of course you have to prove you already asked them since you claim I ignored you.

Prove it, otherwise that's just another bad accusation.

I'll handle both of these right now.

Spoiler:

Post 385:

In post 365 you called me your "major" scum read yet in 367 you essentially say you don't want to start anything with me. That is blatantly ignoring a scum read.

-Never responded to

I would like to know how what I said in any way qualifies as a "hey buddy, I'm town" type of thing.

-Never clearified

What do you qualify as "willing to commit"?

-Never answered

If you didn't actually think Gir was scummy then why would we have to judge his replacement? Wouldn't just getting a replacement mostly relieve all your suspicion?

-Never answered

Read the thread and what I posted. Almost everything you are looking for is there.

You should try taking your own advise here...

Accomplishing nothing. Ouch. What would you two define as accomplishments?

-Never answered

He doesn't want to start anything with me but still says we should focus on the scummy players and includes me in that list. Talk about testing the waters. I can understand the playstyle of going after 'lurkers' day one but I can't understand not caring about the reasons behind it. I always hate it when people walk away from a discussion with me with some sort of lame line like "I can't deal with you anymore, it's all there if you read it" blah blah blah. Last guy who did that ended up being scum so I guess I can have my cake and eat it too in this case.

-Never unsarcastically responded to

You used that "I'm done talking to you" thing to avoid like 3 or 4 questions/points.... What exactly makes me a "scamming scum"?

- Not answered, note I also told you a section of stuff you had so far failed to answer.

Spoiled only for sake of length.

Now this is only so far back as I actually cared about it. There may be a few more even before this.

[Korlash]

Korlash used that as a cover in order not to say his own and since except Poiven the newbies are not very active, I ended up looking wrong but I think that either one of you (zMM/Korlash) is scum.

For what it's worth I'm not intentionally avoiding giving my reads, I just haven't had the time to look into everyone. I fully intend to give a breakdown at some point in the next few days, i just need the time. However, that won't stop me from enjoying the reactions you're spewing out over it.

Am I to assume you think one of me or Z is Ant's partner then?

To be honest, I think my reason is as valid as your reasons for voting mega/ant.

To be honest, I think you are not scumhunting.

To be honest, you both owe me twenty bucks for stealing my catchphrase... >.>

I'm just following what I seem most reasonable from you guys. Just to learn the game.
Ima sit back and watch Z and Oto go at it.

You'll find you wont actually learn the game until you choose to participate. Sitting back and watching as two players converse can actually be good play, but you still need to hone your skills by having your own input on things.

[Korlash]

Other than these two points, there's not much about Korlash I can talk too much about until Day 2 flips.

This seems like a cop out... Both of those points were actually dealing with OTHER people. You literally said nothing about me...

Do I really have such an aura about me that so many people are avoiding saying anything about or to me? Really? I feel sad and alone and need a hug...

Oto-Anka scum team? At least one is scum. Opinion?

That isn't the scum team I would have picked out, but I do think both are solo-scummy. If I were to dish out a read right now asap Anka would technically be my number two... I think he's gotten a few too many lucky breaks over the game when it comes to my focus but he's always been right there near the top. Him and Guy are the two people I'm most interested in looking into before I do post said reads.

I would agree at least one is scum, although... the last time I did that both people ended up being town. Still, I suppose that was at the beginning of the day not the end... Let me get my reads done and I'll get back to you on this.

Korlash: What is your opinion on this, also?

Opinion on what? You said you explained it, but didn't say what it was. So instead of looking through your posts and trying to work out what you mean, I figured I would just ask you.

I'll give you a clue as to why Otolia is keeping it a secret: He doesn't have a legitimate reason.

Oh he does actually, but I won't bother talking about it because he'll deny it. p.s. it makes him scum by the way... just saying...

[Korlash]

I love when you are answering me so nicely Korlash. It makes my whole body shiver. brrrrr

Flattery will get you nowhere... Dinner might though... Gifts are nice...

I don't ignore you as a scumread, I just don't want to explain my whole reasoning YET. I'll do it further in the game or if I feel I'm about to get lynched.

So you're content allowing your scum read to sit there until it becomes convenient for you? Exactly at what point in the game does going after scum reads actually start mattering?

You are trying way too hard on this hard. I believe I explained by writing something similar, if I didn't, that's my bad but it's mostly irrelevant at this point. It can't be a tell and it's definitely not something I would use as a argument. It was mostly a stingy attack.

I still don't get where the "hey buddy, I'm town" comes into it. If you think my attack wasn't proper, then fine. You trying to say I was calling myself town seems way out of left field.

I never thought you would need a dictionary.

You really need to understand how to use that marvelous sign called 'question mark' ...

The sound of 'scamming scum' is nice. I had fun thinking it.

All avoidance of the issues. I think I've successfully proven you do in fact do it now.

[Korlash]

@Korlash : I have a scum vibe from you but right now you are almost unreadable. If I were to attack you, I might not convince the town and it could backfire. If it were a normal game I would attack you without much discussion but except Poiven I don't trust the newbies do get the job done and win the game for the town (obviously I don't trust zMM because he is a scumread too) So there is too much risk for something that I am not ready to gamble on. You can be 'smart' and re-phrase it as 'ignoring a scumtell and ignoring questions' but that's not what I am doing.

So you're not ignoring stuff, you're attempting to keep yourself alive. That sounds even worse to me.

And I'm still waiting on your reads, you lazy ass.

You and Ank actually tie for first place as scum with you being the better flip, Jake and Mega are on the border of scum/neutral, princess and Ant are on the border of neutral/town, with z and poi taking most likely town respectively.

If you want me to go through all your posts and respond to individual points throughout the last 10 or so pages, I will. The reason I don't do so anyway is because that is incredibly messy, time consuming, and prone to massive misunderstandings.

I don't need you to do anything on me post by post but if you're going to do a section labeled "korlash" I would think you would focus on me in said section instead of talking about Oto's stuff on Gir and your reads on Jake...

You never responded to the bolded portion, and neither of you brought it up in your discussion with each other ever again. I associate that silence with either acceptance of the explanation or purposely leaving it out so you have an extra angle to base an attack upon him later.

It actually didn't occur to me what he meant by the bolded section until you explained it a little bit ago. I can blame that a bit on my own stupidity but in all fairness I was more focused on the "recent activity" part at the time.

I personally don't find "good posting" to be any different then saying "I agree with this" so unless that's entirely all you do, I don't see it as necessarily scummy.

Our cop should follow this tutorial based his. Remember to out your results (EVERYTHING YOU DID) if you are going to die.

Our doc should protect the towniest person in town. DO NOT START TO WIFOM WITH THE SCUM.

The Jailkeeper should roleblock the scummiest person in town. DO NOT START TO WIFOM WITH THE SCUM.

I don't mind this at all. I think even newbies would understand it on their own, but I like how you don't actually try to direct the power roles.

He is the principal asset of this town right now and should be protected by the doc if there is one.

Oh wait... there it is... Never mind...

Now that I have posted my thoughts, I am ready for anyone to hammer - meaning I won't claim.

... I've tried looking at it from different angles and I still can't see any pro-town reason to intentionally hold back a claim while publicly accepting your hammer... I could see it as an attempt to further influence scum currently not on your wagon but all four of your lynch candidates were currently voting you so I don't even see that being a plausible excuse. I am generally interested in whatever reason you can muster for this one.


Looking forward to Princess catching up.

[Korlash]

Korlash,

Anka-guy scum team. Comment.

Anka is a better lynch than Otolia.

I don't like the idea of an Anka/Guy team for a few secluded reasons but seeing as how Anka is only second due to one less obvious flip connections I wouldn't put a lot of effort into arguing against his lynch if you catch my drift.

I think I might know why you think Anka is the better of the two... I'm just having a hard time accepting it. I might change my tune after some responses though so, raincheck?

o.- I don't understand why it's pretty low on your priority list, seeing as my vote will matter in the end; the least you can do is say why I shouldn't vote for you. And you could have at least answered whether or not you were suggesting that there is an Anka-Kiwi scum team going on. And why is Anka a better lynch than Otolia? You're not giving out very much information at all, and it's not very helpful to a new player. I am trying to pressure you into building a defense case for yourself, which should be on your top priority, seeing as you are apparently at L-1, and I am also trying to get you to state why you think Anka is a better lynch than Otolia. Why is Anka a better lynch than you for that matter?

We're not lynching z today. Both Anka and Oto are way better choices then him.

[Korlash]

I don't know how you can be an IC and still promote that kind of play. You are a disgrace. A lot of people on MS thinks that claiming D1 is bad, I'm one of them. I thought the job of an IC was not to lie about game theory but it seems you are always playing against the rules. For shame, Korlash, for shame.

Why does being an IC in anyway effect how I should act or play? Also, a lot of people on MS are wrong and stupid then and I deserve a medal for not corrupting these poor innocent newbies... Love you guys! *fist bump*

@Korlash : Are your reads coming today and should I wait until you decided to actually do something on your own instead of just commenting quotes from the town ?

You should actually be asking if I plan on elaborating on my reads, but I suppose that requires you to have actually been reading my posts. And by all means, feel no need to wait on my behalf. You obviously feel you're the only one here worth a damn so please, show us humble peons the light.

[Korlash]

Sorry about that, I had an unavoidable engagement yesterday that prevented me from posting combined with an early morning. Looks like a bunch of new stuff so I'll tackle some of that here asap...

[Korlash]

You only deserve that.

You go on and on how I'm refusing to give reads and am holding info back from the town but when I post a legitimate and highly sarcastic filled point you just don't even bother saying something clever back. You really should try to be the better man here.

I believe you don't know what Archon means. So I'm going to enlighten you : it means "ruler/chief" in ancient greek. I don't believe I rule anything here

Believe it or not, Archon was a player in another game who's even more of an asshole then me. I know hard to believe right... Ironically, 'Archon' was just the nickname I gave him and not his actual name... Kinda regrettable now that we have the real meaning of the word...

Not claiming D1 is a huge debate in MS...

I'm going to stop you right there. If you truely are under the belief that not claiming day 1 is the best play then you should also realize that the more you talk about it in any way shape or form, the less useful not claiming actually is. It's better to take heat for outright ignoring questions against you then to ruin whatever you're doing by saying something you shouldn't have. That's my advice, take it or leave it. I know you probably don't give a damn about what I have to say but there it is...

I'm going to give 3 compelling reasons to vote for Anka.

1) he's scum
2) he has an overweight cousin named Tony
3) it makes me look good if I'm right - I can act like I'm amazing and I knew all along. And if I'm wrong, we never speak of this again.

If these reasons aren't compelling, I will hop on the ant bandwagon be like "see, I told you we shoulda lynched Anka" if he flips town. And if he flips scum, I'm amazing for being right.

Those are very compelling... A hell of a lot more compelling then lynching Ant at least...

On their own, I don't find Anka or Otolia to be all that scummy.. Anka perhaps slightly, Otolia hardly. However, this is something that was interestingly picked up. Is it possible that the two of them are a scum team? I think if one of them is lynched and flips scum, we should take a really close look at the other.

... What... how can you possibly not find Anka and Oto scummy? There are definitely good connections between them, most obviously Anka's defense of Oto, but there are other connections I like more. Besides, it's pointless to even bring this up until we get a flip.

btw Jakesh isn't scum.

I suppose we can't agree on everything...

Kiwi I have no defense because I don't understand any accusation besides the claiming, which I already explained and also not letting Ant get off with the noob card. Ant is by far the scummiest player for reasons already noted. LaM. I explained that already.

Quick question, do you know those reasons off the top of your head or would you have to look them up?

Unvote:, Vote: Anka

I don't want to lynch Ant and there isn't enough consensus on Oto scum so there we are. I don't like voting without some sort of case so I'll have that up sometime tonight, but I'm crossing my fingers some of you people come to your senses!

[Korlash]

I find the vote hopping to be a small town tell actually. I'll be willing to compromise by calling it null, so it's still fairly poor as a main reason. Let's LaM Anka and go from there.

[Korlash]

No, not wrong at all. In the last three pages more people have said "i would be willing to lynch Anka" in some form then "i would be willing to lynch Oto", so there is in fact more consensus on your lynch.

I also just remembered I was suppose to do up a case which I had completely forgotten about... >.> Um... Yeah...

[Korlash]

Anka on multiple occasions seems to be faking his way through the game. His vote on embit, his read up of the thread only to come back on ant, his 'read' on me being him talking about other people... ok maybe that last one's just me... whatever.

he was pushing the z wagon while not actually on it and as soon as it started to die down he changed his tune.

He was voting Jake, but somehow missed a very important discussion point in his claim. This matches up to his former highly suggested fake vote on Embit in the early game.

He has constantly come to Oto's aid in discussion with me and z, at times seemingly explaining oto's own vague and outright ridiculous reasoning.

He has now joined the Ant wagon with a "oh, I guess I'll join it..."

Obvious scum? Wouldn't go that far... Great day one lynch? hell yeahz! Better then Ant lynch? If you have to ask, you're an idiot.

So unless you can dig up who else said they were willing to hammer me within the last 3 pages, at best you are overexaggerating.

Who said anything about hammering?

Poi in 557 said he could be convinced to go for you, Jake in 562 stated the case was becoming more clear but he was for LaM(so an increase wagon on you should bring his vote around), add me and z and you're at L-1.

How many people not currently voting Oto have said they are even remotely considering lynching him, in the last three pages? That's right... zero...

So while you may not like my statement, it is physically fact that there is a greater consensus on your lynch then oto's.

This is also assuming you're not mistaking me for Ant.

Nope, you two are pretty much as dissimilar as possible...

[Korlash]

You have consistently been really hard to read, but by now I'm pretty sure that if Ant isn't scum, you are.

Why? This only furthers my theory that ant is town and you aren't.

Pretty sure I've already responded to this when zMuffinMan said something about it. The one time I found zMM to be more scummy than any other person in the game was at that point, and I did not vote because I wanted answers to my questions. zMM answered then sufficiently, and I moved on.

So in other words it's just very bad timing for you and all a mere coincidence... Right...

I...what? How is a pressure vote shortly after the beginning of the game similar to voting for someone with reasoning behind it. First of all, I have already explained my perspective on the claim. Second of all, have you commented on anything else related to my case on Jakesh97?

To my knowledge, no I have not. If you think player Y is scum, and he claims for no reason, you will always say something on it. If you are only pretending to think player Y is scum, and he claims for no reason, you have no obligation to comment on it. There-fore, your vote on jake is fake thus irrelevant to comment on aside from that.

And fake pressure vote and fake real vote are very similar actually.

Next time I find someone protown, I won't explain why I don't find them scummy.

You don't explain why you don't find them scummy by fighting their battles for them. That's buddying or partnership.

Baseless claim. One of my primary arguments on Jakesh97 was his unwillingness to contribute. Guess what he did soon afterwards.

I have said that I'm fine with a zMM or Ant lynch, but there is not enough support on zMM and he's a more solid Day 2 lynch.

Also, we have a deadline.

Jake appeases you so you remove your vote? *coughfakevotecough* Sorry... where was I?

Previously offhandedly mentioning you'd be fine lynching a dude does not justifies your vote...

We've had a deadline since the day started, while it's not a scummy reason, it's hardly anything more then a cop-out. You're still accountable for your vote regardless of deadline.

Opinions.

Yeah but my opinions mean a lot to me.

He said the evidence was not enough, not that he would switch if a wagon started on me.

I knew you would ignore 'LaM' and go straight for the 'not enough' part... If Ant is no longer the obviously best option, and your case has been strengthened by me then him joining it is well within reason. Do you have a point actually arguing this anymore? You can't push the 'exaggeration' misrep because I've already disproved it, and the fact that I have added to your wagon and case you should be less worried that Jake previously said it wasn't enough, and more about trying to keep it at 'not enough'.

Jakesh has not said that he would consider lynching me based on evidence at the time, so the count's still at 3. It's still 2 short of a lynch.

So? What does evidence 'at the time' mean come tomorrow, or come Monday? And wouldn't putting you at L-2 still make you a contender come deadline, a reason you have already stated for your Ant vote? You're not looking at the big picture here.

And yet FOUR people are also willing to lynch zMuffinMan, yet there is no single mention on him.

Because I'm not willing to lynch him, making not only the lynch itself impossible but the idea of me considering it stupid. And I know how egotistical that sounds, but it's true.

I had a dream last night.... And as nerdy as it sounds, Anka=scum made perfect sense in this dream. But then I woke up and completely forgot how it made perfect sense. All I've got is "Anka=scum because..."

You would have dreams about Anka...

[Korlash]

Because I'm really liking a Korlash/zMM scumteam right now, and I have been considering it for quite a while. If Ant had given town tells at any point in the game, I would not be voting for him at this time.

Oh, ok. So Ant being town doesn't actually factor into me being scum, it's just your process of elimination. Ok fine, I'll give you a break on that one then.

I don't buy the actions you two have done on pages 12 and 13. You're having an argument about several things, and it's obvious you have scum reads on zMM simply by the way you worded your posts, then everything is completely dropped. You two completely go seperate ways and only reference each other a few times over the next several pages. This smells like distancing.

And it's completely dropped... because... Oh, you don't even mention it... I suppose neglecting my reason for the 180ish flip is a good way to make it appear shady.

Then once you realize that enough people are finding Otolia protown that his lynch is not viable, you decide to go for zMM's vote even though at that point there was little to no support for it. zMM also has yet to explain why I'm scum, by the way. Those "compelling reasons"? Filler. Then he posts this:

I went for my number 2 because my number one wasn't going to happen, z had very little or maybe a lot or kinda a bit to do with it at all! Stop the jibber jabber fool!

This is convenient. Way too convenient. I attack his only point against me (essentially gut with a small tidbit attached) and suddenly he has nothing.

Don't forget that zMuffinMan originally unvoted Otolia in his next post after Ant puts him at L-1, then next asks you about me being scum with Kiwi, then soon after saying that he's not sure of it. Around this time, you follow him.

So... what, you're saying he's protecting Oto? I don't get why the unvote is relevant. And didn't you mention deadline before as a reason for your vote? Why is it so important I'm following a person onto my number two scum this late in the day?

No. I was planning to put zMM at L-1 if he did not adequately answer my questions. He had. I didn't find zMM as scummy as I did when I was willing to put him at L-1. I moved on to Dr Doom after that partially because I found him scummy (I explain my reasoning in ISO#17) and because he had suddenly stopped contributing after expressing that he found me scummy. Obviously I was interested in hearing his reasons.

So it had nothing to do with you suddenly realizing people were starting to find him protown? Oh snap, see what I did there? Yeah...

That seems like a very convenient reason to completely bypass the fact that I have a case. You are focusing very hard on me not originally seeing that Jakesh97 had claimed, and pushing everything else out of the way.

No, I'm painting a picture of a recurring action from you dealing with another slot in the game while denying you the opportunity to delve into an irrelevant defense of your case on him. My only 'attacks' against you have been the claim ignorant and embit vote. If you can sufficiently explain those two things out of the way then what does it matter what the rest of your case on Jake is?

This entire debate started when I posted my reads on Otolia explaining why I found him protown. I was called out on the non-lurker reasoning he had on Dr Doom. Now that I have explained why I have found it protown, suddenly I'm scummy for it. Gotcha.

The entire debate started when I attacked Oto, he failed to give reasons/excuses, and then at some point you physically did it for him. Posting reasons you think someone is protown means posting opinions, you physically posted his reasons for his actions. That has jumped from your opinion of his alignment, to you outright defending him.

He was unwilling to contribute. He's now willing to contribute.

This is like the exact same thing you said about Embit... Did you not learn the lesson then? Oh wait, it's the same guy you don't actually care about for realsies.

There are 3 people calling Jakesh97 protown. I found him scummy enough to put my vote on him at the time. It is clear that voting for one of my other scumreads is more productive than putting it on him.

Again, it's an irrelevant cop-out. Anyone of us can use this to justify switching our vote, but it doesn't justify the actual vote itself.

[Korlash]

About Korlash being a scumread, that only became reality after he posted a case on me. As I said before, the idea of you being a scumteam with him was a slight possibility in my mind until then.

So you think I'm scum because I posted a case on you? That is literally what you just said here...

This, combined with z's case against you, leaves very little left to be said, at this point. I'm convinced that this is a good lynch route. The cases are quite compelling to me.

You're going to go places kid...

You don't have time to post a reply, but you have time to read other threads?

As much as I hate saying anything in support of Oto, You have to give LA players a bit of leeway for stuff like this. Would you rather he post a one line post saying "Hi, I've read the thread... bye"?

Honestly, Muffin's read makes sense.. so does Anka.. I'm gonna have to trust my gut here.
VOTE: Z

You may want to start brown nosing Poi now. Maybe, just maybe, you'll go places too, and be there to deliver Poi's coffee and make faxes and stuff...

Daaang, a lot can happen in 13 hours apparently.

Marathon with the three best movies of the last decade, mild invasion of a small island nation, take a course on understanding Korlash references (But you'll probably walk out after the first two)... Yeah... 13 hours can hold a lot of monumental events of historical importance.

[Korlash]

If there's a reason, state it. I'd love to hear it.

His wagon highly suggested he was town and the people pushing his wagon while not voting him were the scum.

It's scummy when I do it, but not when you and zMM do it?

When did I ever say it was scummy? I simply said it wasn't justification for your vote.

Also, Otolia's lynch was still a pending reality up until zMM initially unvoted for him, again immediately after Ant put him at L-1.

So up until before I got off it. Your point?

Because Ant put Otolia at L-1, then zMuffinMan immediately unvotes and you quickly follow. The Otolia lynch was alive and healthy. I can see zMM also being scum with Otolia based on this, but with that being the only real read in 25 pages, it's naturally much weaker than other pairs.

Sorry mate, alive may be a somewhat valid word but it certainly wasn't healthy. And define quickly.

We have already debated the embit vote and put it to rest. Look back at my ISO to see my side on it.

I never put it to rest.

You asked me, not Otolia, to explain why Dr Doom was buddying people. Now that I have, I'm scummy for it.

No, I asked you to show me where he had given his reasons, which you apparently knew the location of. You outright said "he had reasons" before I said anything to you after I had asked him what they were.

You basically said the exact same thing in that same post. How is this any different?

That was my bloody point. Because we can all say it, it means literally nothing. You can say you changed your vote because of it, but you still need to completely justify your new vote, which you didn't do when you voted Ant.

Secondly, it's different because you accused me of following someone else, so me switching my vote due to deadline kills that theory of yours, where-as my problem with you isn't the act of switching your vote, but the justification for the vote itself. Vastly different things.

Just because I only pegged you as scum after you made a case on me, doesn't mean it's the reason. Most of my scumread on you is because of your actions alongside zMuffinMan's. The path that the two of you made after the Otolia wagon is incredibly suspicious.

Then you should pay more attention to how you word things. And saying I'm scum because I have possible buddy connections is bad play. You need to find people who are scum on their own, then find the buddy connections. not the other way around.

And to date, I still haven't seen you present a good case as to why I'm scum. No one has, in fact.

Well I did have a dream the other night...

Well, I'm not going to remove my vote just yet, even if he isn't going to be lynched D1. Anyway, I'm calling it a night. Hopefully will post tomorrow.

This isn't the best idea. If you disagree with both lynchee wagons and truly think Oto is the better choice then you need to do everything in your power to get the rest of us to agree with you, otherwise you're failure to participate in the deadline race is detrimental to the town and will have severe consequences against you tomorrow, which if you're town, means drastic consequences for the rest of us as well. If you think either Anka or Z are possible scum, you need to join the wagons. Otherwise you need to put a lot more effort into your vote then you have.

[Korlash]

I have posted my reads, I just decided not to elaborate further on them.

[Korlash]

*yawn* Sorry, didn't get my usual work done during the night so I'll have a VC analysis up after work.

As for new developments... No I cannot see scum killing kiwi for any reason so I really can't fault you for claiming so early although I do wish you had at least attempted to remain in the dark just because of the fact there is a secondary protective role possibility. But like I said, I don't really fault you for this one.

Vote: Princess Kiwi

I do have a comment on your contingency plan, well two in fact, but I can't say it. Let's just say... do you realize the big hole in it and what do you plan to do about said hole? Could I be any vaguer?

essentially, and I'm just spit balling here... Your plan would let hypothetical scum poiven win without having to do anything if you catch my drift. Not saying he is the scum, just using it as an example...

[Korlash]

That wasn't my point actually but I do see new potential in your plan.

I still have one major question eating away at me though, but fortunately it isn't one that we need to answer right now anyway!

[Korlash]

I want to see what Korlash has to say.

I would like to say that you guys post way too damn much while I'm at work. Let me catch up with what happened today, respond to some end of day stuff, then get my VCA. If I'm lucky I can get all three done tonight.

[Korlash]

Ugh, that makes me facepalm so hard, but it also makes me consider the possibility that you're not actually scum.

Unvote

So because she didn't know scum cop could kill and investigate she can't be scum. I can get behind that, although I find it's the interesting chicks who always end up playing you at some point. I'd watch yourself man.

Still my whole reason for voting her was based on a power role result, and without that power role on the wagon it's a wasted vote from me so:

Unvote:,

This will let me do my VCA unburdened by a vote. I love it.

z, it actually makes total sense that he would target Kiwi. In fact, Kiwi was his *perfect target.* She wasn't high on scum radar or town radar. High on scum radar means likely to be Jail Kept, and also likely to be lynched at some point. High on town radar means likely to be doctor protected. Of course he would pick someone who's not really on either, which is exactly where Kiwi was.

No it doesn't. Mega falls under the same exact category our royal Pineapple does and he didn't hammer while spending all of his time in the game going "I'm still reading... la la la." Blatant exaggeration, I apologize but I'm making a point. WIFOM can be a good tool, but in this situation you sound like you're the one who 'attempted to kill' Kiwi just because you knew you could imply Oto.

My advice is not to dwell on the night kill. If you have a theory, say it, but don't push it. otherwise you end up looking like the bad one and your well thought out case goes ignored.

@Korlash and zMM : Lynch me, have my flip, JK Kiwi tomorrow, no NK -> Win the game.

You have the same hole z does and your plan does not fill me with joy and happiness. Although the thought of seeing you hanging does... *sigh* if only...

Also, I mentioned on the second page (I believe) that I don't like self-voting. But if it's a vote for a scum.. well, I'll take it.

Self voting as the first vote on your own wagon = null, self voting under pressure = arrogant town or appealing scum. Fortunately, I think Oto falls just barely in the arrogance section. He believes he is right and that killing himself would speed up his "win." Overconfidence and arrogance go hand in hand, and this is probably the only time I'll see a self vote under pressure as a semi-town thing to do.

And also, please don't call me sweetheart. That just irks me. Princess Kiwi or PK does just fine for me. My vote still remains the same, as you haven't given me any reason to vote otherwise.

Can I keep up the cutsie names? You and mega have so much diversity I can't help myself.

Someone actually hired a cynical person like you .... There might be some hope left for me then

Here's hoping sweetheart.

There's no need to insult people.

Ah, that's just how he shows love and respect.

Need to go afk for a second, part two coming soon...

[Korlash]

I already covered that. A scum main objective is to win in LyLo, she is far from being the most experienced player here. I would have hard time dealing with Korlash if I were scum in LyLo. Smoke trail only matters when the game is not a imbalanced as it is right now (a scum being lynched D1)

so in other words, to play devil's advocate here, if I were dead right now you would be prime suspect material, but a dead Kiwi would not make you prime suspect material. You aren't going to change the mind of the people who think you killed Kiwi by agreeing with them in a sense.

An even more main objective to a scum would be to make it to LYLO. Even you have to realize that.

Actually I think jakesh could very likely be scum. I do believe it's more likely than not that our other scum was on that Ankawagon. Look at where he is on it, though. L-1 is so convenient. It's right between "Comfortable bandwagon spot" and "Why are you looking at me? I didn't hammer!"

Jake was my number one partner to Anka going into the lynch, so I'm looking forward to looking into him. I do agree with you the scum was probably on Anka's wagon, but I'll delve into those theories after I get caught up.

Ok, on to stuff I missed during yesterday's end.

Now, MS noob question: some people say "never claim on D-1," while others say "never lynch without a claim." What would the more experienced players suggest for Anka to do now, or for someone considering hammering Anka to do?

This close to deadline, claim... Always. If you're a PR, better to lynch elsewhere and die during the night, then allow yourself to be lynched followed by a dead townie at night. Claiming means potential scum death along with yours, not claiming means that's no longer possible. if you're a VT, you're lynched either way so the whole argument to "not claiming" is irrelevant. Better to claim to get the responses to it then to stay silent and lose out.

OMG. Don't lie as town. FUCKING NEVER LIE AS FUCKING TOWN. NEVER NEVER

I request IC backup on that topic.

You're going to regret it, but ok.

Here it is, plain and simple. Don't lie as town. You create misinformation, you set yourself up for failure because there will always be a hole in your story, and you allow scum a new avenue in which to screw with the town.

That being said, I want you to be the best players you can be. So here is the skinny. This is a mental game. You are not only playing mind games with your enemies, but you have to play mind games with your partners as well. Lying is a tool town can use to great benefits. Scum do not expect you to lie, and in both open and theme games lying will fuck with them a lot. A LOT. I've won newbie games because the IC lied about being a VT as the cop, I won clerks mafia because a VT in LYLO claimed neutral survive and said he would let the scum win if the scum voted. Obviously the scum goes "lol, Vote: korlash" and me and mr. awesome VT take home the gold.

Lying can win you the game, but only if you know what you're doing. As it stands, there are a few rules to follow. Don't lie on a whim, if you haven't spent time thinking about it don't do it. Don't lie to save yourself, lie to help the town. Do not lie in such a way that you even potentially put the town in a worse off situation, if you haven't thought of the worst case scenario and worked out why the town would still be better off, don't do it. Lastly, if you are caught, in anyway, at any time, don't fucking lie more to cover it up. Keep things simple, and never turn the lie onto someone else. as in "you're lying" "no I'm not, you're scum for saying so."

Ok teaching moment done. this is something you need to decide for yourself. If you think lying is bad, cool. That's you're thing. if you think you see a time where lying could help your side, then cool. Do it. But try to follow the rules, eh?

But there's something. A strange gut feeling. Thinking I should vote Jakesh. He's so eager to move on.
However there is more evidence on an Ank vote.

VOTE: Vote: Ankamius

Why did you hammer with just a quick little reread while skipping posts?

1. Town does not lie. Ever. There is no motivation FOR town to ever lie.

Also,

2. LYNCH ALL LIARS.

This is also a very good school of thought. Please don't take my own belief as a suggestion yours is in anyway "wrong."

After his feet stopped twitching, someone actually thought to go through his pockets. A quick search turned up a gun, severals wads of cash, and an untraceable cell phone.

Damnit, we're making this harder then we need to. Everyone turn out your pockets now...

[Korlash]

Spoiler: Vote Count Spreadsheet

Sadly I didn't work out the sizing quiet right so It's a bit hard to read. but whatever, I've put too much into it already to be bothered to go through the

3 minutes

2 hours of time it would take to fix it.

Anyway, give me some time to rest my eyes and fingers and I hopefully will get the actual analysis up shortly.

[Korlash]

Ok where to start... I have very little experience with these type of VCAs so... let's start at the beginning. Bare in mind this analysis is out of context with the actual going-ons of the game, based solely on votes themselves.

Anka's votes

:
Anka voted Ant three times, Jake twice, z once, and mega once. random vote was Ant, I always say random votes are not purely random. Everyone can be explained in some way. newbie scum are very likely to vote partners in the random phase, Ant voted Kiwi, so nothing there. He was on Ant threw a rather long wagon before unvoting. However, he only unvoted after Ant finally reached 4 votes. Jumped on Mega's bandwagon, also moved off at 4 votes. Revoted Jake for the second time as the first vote. Joins the next Ant wagon as the fourth vote, Joins the z wagon as the third vote.

On Jake

: Both jake votes were out of the blue, scum often drift to their partner when there isn't anything else they want to be on because it's safe. The only reason for scum to not join a wagon is for safety.

On Ant

: The first Ant wagon Anka stayed on for a bit while he shuffled through votes but immediately got off when he hit L-1. He then joined the second Ant wagon as the L-1 vote. This could either be a bus/protect/bus again, or he jumped off the first wagon to keep off a townie and look better, then got on the second in order to actually get the mislynch. Both sound equally plausible.

On Mega

: Joined Mega as third vote but jumped off at L-1 after a while, aka not immediately. He got off the wagon and onto a non-wagon. This is purely a mislynch/protect self combo. Mega is not his partner.

On Z

: Remained off the first z wagon, but joined the second. he joined the second z wagon in order to save himself, the first wagon could have been to save his partner but as I remember the context I highly doubt it was.

So

based on Anka's votes alone, jake is his most likely partner, Ant is his second likely, and z is his third likely

. Making progress.

Jake's Votes

:
So Jake was on the mega wagon, second ant wagon, and second z wagon along with anka. Jake followed Anka onto Mega, Anka followed Jake onto z (not immediately) Jake did nothing during the first Anka wagon, but jumped on two competing wagons during the second wagon before eventually joining Anka's wagon at the end.

Possibility of being partners due to Jake's votes

:

high

Ant's Votes

:
Ok Ant ignored Anka all game until the hammer, was on no wagons with Anka, did nothing during both anka wagons, and did very little vote switching after his initial vote hopping. It's possible Ant would ignore Anka due to how much bussing Anka was doing, but I would still expect some cooperation at some point. There is literally none at all.

Possibility of being partners due to Ant's votes

:

Low

z's Votes

:
Ok z... Jumps on the first Anka wagon, but is the first one off. Is on no wagons with Anka, and starts the second Anka wagon himself. With so many other possibilities it seems farfetcheed he would have created the lynch wagon as he did and kept with it so long.

Possibility of being partners due to Z's votes

:

Low

So Anka and Jake are a perfect match. I'll continue the rest here in a second, shouldn't take as long.

[Korlash]

Ok my favorite:

Oto's votes

:

During the first Anka wagon, he jumps on the Ant bandwagon along with Anka. Third vote on the first z wagon, note that Anka had already left the Ant wagon. Second vote on Mega, immediately followed by Anka. Third vote on Ant, the rejoins the z wagon as the L-1 vote. During the second Anka wagon he quickly joins the Ant wagon and sticks to it for the rest of the day. Definate cooperation, definite protection.

Possibility of being partners due to Oto's votes

:

high

James' votes

:

During first Anka wagon, he joins Ant's bandwagon as the L-1 vote and Anka immediately removes his vote. Stays on Ant, Anka eventually joins that one, switches to Anka as third vote as soon as Anka jumps off Ant's wagon. This is highly surprising, but I can't avoid the skittishness these two have being on the same wagon as the other.

Possibility of being partners due to James' votes

:

Medium

Royal Kiwi's Votes

:

Was on Ant's first wagon as third vote along with Anka, immediately removes his vote onto non-wagon mega. Jumps on z without wagon during first Anka wagon, but stays on through the whole z wagon long after Anka wagon was dismissed. Joins Anka's second Jake vote, again immediately removes it. Rejoins z wagon as soon as second Anka wagon get's started (two votes), immediately followed by Anka. Unvotes a while later, Jumps back on Jake. This is bloody weird, twice she votes with Anka, only to immediately remove it. Was on the entire z wagon, could actually be the reason Anka avoided it, And then Anka immediately follows her onto z's wagon at the end. But the mega and second jake votes make no sense what-so-ever.

Possibility of being partners due to Kiwi's votes

:

Medium

And just for S&G-

Mega's votes

:

Third vote on Ant along with Anka, During first Anka wagon, stays with Ant (competing wagon). Third vote on z, but really late. Doesn't move from there even during the second Anka wagon.

Possibility of being partners due to Mega's votes

:

Low

So there we have it. Scum are within Jake, Oto, James, and Kiwi. Now I just need to put that into context with the actual content and it should narrow it down even more. If people want I'll do an analysis of myself also for S&Gs, but I think it best to leave that to someone else.

Anyway, I'll try to schedule some time for a reread in the next few days. Man I'm beat after all this crap. I'm starting to think VCA's are not my thing.

[Korlash]

Because as an IC, he should have thought over the possibility of you being a jailed target as opposed to a jailed scum, yet he instantly voted you. It looked opportunistic.

No. Day two with a dead scum and no town and a person unlikely to be NKed jailed is fairly standard procedure. Lynch, get flip, either win or know if she was in fact targeted or not. Secondly, a jailed target after a kill-less night is prime information target regardless of any other factors and should be waggoned for reactions immediately. lastly, I know a lot about what to discuss and what to keep silent about after a night like the last one.

3 new pages since I last checked is always fun to come back to after sleeping.

Good God man, you keep weird hours.... Creature of the night eh?

^ Gir at L-1 before replacement, Anka jumped off here very quickly and moved to Jakesh. I'm trying to decide whether it's more like that Anka was distancing from Gir with his vote and got nervous that his partner might actually be lynched, or Anka was distancing from Jakesh here. His reads on Gir's slot IIRC went from scummy->null after Mega replaced, and stayed completely null for the rest of the day. Admittedly, Mega wasn't posting much content really, so that may be why, but I'm not too sure.

I haven't put the votes into context yet, so I'll have to remember this one. I'm basing a lot of anti-mega connections on the fact he wasn't quick to unvote. Remind me to look into this first chance I get.

[Korlash]

Ah man... All that work gone. I spent a good... four minutes making a post before I mis-clicked and away it went... lost to the Gods of the interwebs... Oh well, time I'll never see again...

I don't think VCA is the optimal play here, especially if the scums are experienced players. You are entering the realm of WIFOM and I don't think it's a goog idea, Korleash.

You don't think analyzing votes is an optimal play? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we catch the now dead scum using some vote analysis? And you think we should stop that now? And how is examining votes wifom? Voting patterns are the most unbiased scum hunting tools you can find. It's literally as far from wifom as you can get. And why are you paranoid of 'experienced' scum? They still have to vote like the rest of us, no? And isn't the proven, dead scum a newbie? Are you high? This whole bit is utter rubbish.

Anyway, decide what you want to do. In all cases, we can lynch jakesh or ant for being the horrible newbies there are (quickhammer + useless claim)

You believe so much we have this game won you're willing to sacrifice yourself... yet you still throw out lynches based on people being "horrible" newbies... Sad really...

Korlash, sorry to say but your following Z around like a lost puppy, everything he does you do.. possibly a playstyle because he seems like a good player but.. still.. your the IC, I just find it sorta odd and thats how it looks to me.

I may have 'followed' him here and there but I'm hardly a lost puppy. And come on, can you blame me? Look at the guy... who doesn't want to follow that?

Also, objectively speaking, I really don't see anything wrong with a Kiwi lynch today, unless people have a town read on her.

I do. (see things wrong, not necessarily have a town read mind you) Would you, future evidence and what have you not withstanding, be willing to lynch Jake instead and then just JK Kiwi again tonight if he ends up being town for some reason? I think you get the same result more or less but I'll feel better about it, and that's something you could go to bed happy about...

this means, someone could target me meaning no NK, which would make me look like the best D3 lynch then I flip town.

it's stuff like this that makes me want you lynched... Why are you already trying to explain why there isn't a nighkill when you're blocked?

Wait, what reason would scum have for buddying town?

To decrease suspicion on them. If you buddy up to a townie, the idea is that that townie won't vote or attack you as easily. In addition, if you flip then the buddied town is implicated as your partner. Plus there are lots of other little fun things that budding up can do, but I won't go into all of it.

[Korlash]

It is not common sense actually. there's one glaringly obvious fact you seem not to have picked up on.

[Korlash]

Look, I'm not looking to get into WIFOM territory, but I'm going to avoid that by prefacing it with this: Otolia role-directed both the doctor and the jail keeper.

Assuming that the scum killed Kiwi and z blocked it is the exact same wifom territory as saying it's unlikely the scum targeted kiwi. The difference is that the wifom of saying Kiwi wouldn't have been targeted is vague, while you're saying she was seems to only point to Oto. (in your opinion at least) the rule with Wifom ironically is that vaguer equals better. The wider the scope, the less 'damaging' the wifom can be. The narrower the scope, the more likely it is to fail.

The question is, can you, as scum (not a specific person, but as general scum) actually say with a straight face that Kiwi would have been a top NK choice of yours?

The fact that you picked someone not entirely in one of those categories to jail, and a night kill didn't happen, when it seemed obvious that his plan was to hit someone in the middle, makes perfect sense. It really does. I'm honestly getting frustrated that you still see him as town. It does not make sense to me.

While I disagree with your conspiracy theory as a whole, I too don't get why z sees Oto as town. Sadly, I still see other lynches better then his at the moment... *sigh* I secretly hope I get to watch him hang at some point during the game... Cause that's what friends do... right? Secretly wish to murder the other one in a mob fueled rage of burning hatred and spiteful malice!!!!

(Side note: It's really strange to read through and see myself quoted with my actual first name. I mean I know I mentioned it as a joke but it's just kind of like "whoa that's my actual name." It's fine if you do it, it was just kind of weird at first.)

My bad... I thought you were joking and used a random fake name... Oh well, hope you like the UR reference better, I sure as hell do.

[Korlash]

Try working twelve....

Do you really think Anka would go out of his way to defend his scum buddy like that?

No actually, hence why my top pick is Jake.

I was hoping to steamroll through D2 but unfortunately zMM unvote broke my vibe.

Oto, always a pleasure...

Sorry, I like taking my time to think through things. I know, I know, it's a shitty thing to do, but I still like doing it.

Yeah I've got my own ISOs lined up as well. A day off is in my future and short of a few personal appointments I think I can hunker down and get some real procrastination done myself.

[Korlash]

Why do you think Jakesh is scum, Korlash? Is that just continuing from your read yesterday, or is it in relation to Anka?

He was a perfect match in the VCA, and if memory serves I don't expect anything in his iso to deflect suspicion. I suppose I would say it's in relation to Anka.

[Korlash]

Great appreciation there Flayzilla... I'll never take this crazy smiling avatar for granted again!

Anyway, I've been out of commission for a while due to profile changes. But I'm back now, better then ever thanks to our glorious mod here.

unfortunately, this combined with my previously mentioned personal appointments didn't help speed up my reads. But I see a lot of that going around so I'll try not to feel so bad about it.

Short of Oto flooding the thread with mind numbing posts... and Jake's 838 there isn't a whole lot of new stuff I want to go over. I'll catch up here tomorrow after work, which is a promise and uh... I never break those... >.>

[Korlash]

Pro-player tip of the week: If you think the game is stalling and want to ask everyone a question to promote discussion, always go ahead and answer your own question. If town, not only do you attempt to get people involved by asking the question, but you give them stuff to discussion that is relevant to you as it deals with what you said. If you're scum, it shows you as taking initiative and in the grand scheme of things, would suggest you're the first person to actually put forth discussion during the stagnation period, which will help you later on.

By commenting on the lack of activity in some form and then not actually providing contribution of your own you not only look worse for obvious reasons, but actually do very little in fixing the problem.

Ok that's enough teaching for today. ISO times!

[Korlash]

Anka: Early on gets a 'town' reading on me and Poi. Quick vote/unvote on Embit. I've already covered that a bit yesterday. In his ISO 19, his reads post, he asks abbout my read on Poi, and then with Poi he seems almost unsure of what he needs to be doing. He calls him town but is sure to put in the "but he's so hard to read" clause. His Embit read also grinds my gears. His vote/Unvotee was due to lack of contribution and then rectification of that lack. But Embit has literally the lowest number of iso posts out of everyone (and Anka apparently cares as he thought to mention it) yet he A) Ignores this fact, and B) still calls embit town. His read of Quinn is weird, but nothing suspicious.

Embit is neutral, Poi and Quinn town. If I were a betting man I would bet the partner is in the town/neutral sections. (Coincidentally this matches my reads I had already >.> I like when stuff works out)

First instance of defending Oto(Quinn) was ISO 26. Followed by his iso 33/37-39 (discussion with me), Iso 42 (Outright says Oto's reasons for him)

After I call him out on his "waiting for Gir" post he votes Jake pretty much out of the blue. He hadn't said anything to Jake since replacing in, and hadn't said anything to embit (Other then requesting a prod) since his read post.

Iso 42, read of Jake is just funny. He goes into great detail with the Oto related stuff, but the only thing that seems to 'jump him' on the scumdar is the budding with Poi. His read on Poi is interesting in the opposite way. He finds Poi town, yet has a handful of questions for him. Why questions for the 'town' read, but none for the 'scum' read? Backwards.

Some hard pushing of Jake follows for a couple of posts. I do think scum tend to be more aggressive in busses nearer to the end of the game, but Jake was never really in any danger at all. So in my mind since it wasn't a mislynch, the only thing I can see this as is distancing.

His vote on ant is the exact opposite. If it were a bus I would expect more to be put into it (because he knows ant is scum and because busing works best the harder you do it.) his nonchalantness about it suggests mislynch.

Some more interactions with Poi, but seems like legit questions for a person in his situation.

Ok so out of that I get Ant as no way he is his partner, jake as no way he isn't his partner, Poi as the surprise second in command of likely partnerville, and Oto as the deeply buddied, but ultimately ignored third. I agree with z that this makes Oto unlikely partners with Anka, but in the event I am wrong about the other two I still think he's a better choice then mega/kiwi. (for other reasons)

Ok things are starting to add up nicely. I'll wait for the iso on Jake before I vote but I think that's just a technicality at this point.

[Korlash]

Embit: Totally focused on Ant throughout whole iso. As Ant was a hot topic in the early game I want to see this in context. Otherwise, irrelevant.

Jake: Puts Gir at L-1 despite not liking the bandwagon on him. Claims VT while not under pressure. His Iso 6 interaction with Anka seems more like a "wtf dude" than a "I'll defend myself." His Iso 12 stands out to me because he jumps on Oto's "Korlash has accomplished nothing" but I'm probably biased on that one... >.> His iso 20 calls my reasons for voting Anka the first time "useless and pointless", the only thing from me worth actually commenting on apparently. 'heavily leaning protown' on Anka. In his next post he says the "case on anka is becoming more clear but not enough to lynch" Then votes ant. Seems like early attempt to get pressure off Anka.

ISO 27, again mentions the case on Anka becoming "stronger" and again pushes against someone else. By post 28 he is literally putting his foot in both camps. Note: voting Z here could literally be due to his town read on Anka. ISO 29, "one of z or anka is scum, duh"? Even worse then this bit, is this bit:

I might switch to Anka at any time if at some point I feel its better to have a vote on Anka then Z

better to have a vote on Anka than Z? As in, better for you to have your vote on a sinking partner? I would like to hear what you meant by this.

Switch to Anka based on deadline. Could be legit, well if he had ever said anything about why Anka was scum that is. looking back, I don't see him ever saying anything about why Z or Anka were scum, simply saying they both had cases.

Iso 32 seems like a set-up to get out of his VT claim if the situation ever arose.

And then on to day two which I think I've covered since then...

Ok... So yeah, I see plenty of links to Anka. He also has plenty of solo stuff as well. VCA and Anka ISo point to him. Honestly, seems like a clear shut case really.

Vote: Jakesh

[Korlash]

Oh, FTR, I was thinking about it this morning while I was staring blankly at the wall and drinking some coffee, but I'd be OK with a lynch other than Kiwi, because I'll just jail her again tonight. If Kiwi isn't scum, scum would be taking a huge risk intentionally not killing unless the kill was blocked by doc protection last night. But we can delve into the WIFOM possibilities if/when it happens.

You were thinking about something I said a while ago? I'm touched... But before we go lynch Jake with this contingency plan in the works, let's take a look at Poi because he's come to light far too many times recently for my liking. I'd like to have some stuff on him on the books, and it's not like we don't have the time.

[Korlash]

Your plan has a fault, Z. If Kiwi is not the scum, telling the scum that you will jail her is a death sentence for you.

How would not telling them make any difference?

[Korlash]

I am visiting my girlfriend and it's way more important than Mafia.

tsk, tsk. You need to get your priorities in order.

I was going to say something belligerent that.. well lets just say it involved the term 'deflating' and leave it at that. But I think I'll take the high road and just give this one a wide berth.

Jakesh: The cases against him seem relatively solid, but something just doesn't seem to fit and I can't quite put my finger on it. Like I said, I could be talked into it, but it's definitely not my first choice.

Funny... sounds eerily similar to some of the stuff Jakesh was saying during the rise of the Anka lynch yesterday...

Otolia: I've regurgitated my case on him over and over. I am still strongly convinced he is scum, or just a very scummy player. Still need to metagame him.

so you think he might be scum... or possible town that looks scummy... taking some pretty solid stances there aren't you?

You can plainly see a majority of us are for the jakesh lynch and very few seem for an Oto one, you yourself have said you would be willing to be 'talked into it' meaning you expect more from us to motivate you, yet baring all that in mind you choose to give us a halfhearted 'I've already said my case, he might be scum or maybe not'...

Why did you outline a valid point on Jake's case but not even mention a single one on Oto's even though you made it a point to mention you feel Oto is the better lynch? And why are you failing to take a solid stance on either wagon? You make it a point to show support for the Jake wagon, but separate yourself by claiming it the worse of the two, yet you feel the need to mention Oto might just be a scummy town person when talking about his wagon. Do you even really care about who is lynched right now?

Sorry about the inactiveness, real life has been insane. I'm typing this up at 2:40 in the morning because I haven't had time to really get to this game that often. Sorry about that guys.

we're all feeling it there Gayms... Literally, I think the most active person in the game right now might actually be Mr. Flay himself. Ha ha... ha... Yeah, he probably didn't find that at all funny either...

[Korlash]

I'm guessing you're young and single, eh Z?

Do you really think this is the best time to be hitting on your coworker? He's not even slightly inebriated. You have to get the guy drunk first,

then

proposition him... Silly newbies. But this is why we play these games... to learn...

[Korlash]

Except I actually gave an example, one that you didn't even really address.

I didn't address it outright because I didn't see it as relevant. It doesn't change your unclear stance on his wagon though. I will admit I misread this example of yours the first time as a point in favor of the Jake lynch not a point against it. (Don't ask me how, I think I read doesn't as does or something) Point is I wish I had addressed it so I hadn't made this mistake.

I have gone over everything in the Oto case many, many times, and to repeat it would just be clutter and annoying. If you want, read my first post of today thoroughly and you can see what I was talking about with an Oto lynch; readdressing these points would be redundant. I pointed out the flaw in your logic on jakesh because he's not my first lynch candidate and I don't want to have him lynched based on flawed logic.

How do you expect to get anyone to join you in the Oto Wagon if you stop talking about it? You need to keep up on your attacks against your lynch target, and yes. Sometimes you need to annoy people by constantly presenting reasons they should listen to you. The longer you wait to start forcing your beliefs down people's throats, the longer the people actively pushing their cases have to gain support. There will be a point where there is too much support for another case for you to get any for your own.

In this game you always need to be pushing your goal because you cannot afford the town to listen to someone else. It is your job as a player to always try to force the town to do what you want. It may sound crass, but ultimately, regardless of your alignment, if the town does what you want you have the highest chance of winning. To say, in any form, "I've already posted my case, if you want to know what it was go back and read it" you've put the game in another player's hands.

As for Jakesh, how does pointing out one tiny flaw in anyway change the other mass of info against him? Do you have any other comments on it? Here's an idea, I did a VCA on both Jake and Oto. Tell me why Oto's makes him more likely scum then Jakes. we have four separate ISO's on Jake if my count is accurate. Do one on Oto. Don't sit there letting what will be, be. Push your case as hard as you can.

And, while in other games he is crass and rude, he doesn't really read as all that scummy, whereas in this game he does; not only is he crass and rude, he doesn't get as deep into the game and the reads; most of his posts are shallow compared to in other games; he leaves many things unaddressed, and simply acts suspicious the entire time.

What was his alignment in these other games?

[Korlash]

That isn't true, Korlash. Your number one partner to Anka was Otolia, if you read your last few posts from Day 1. Why are you changing your story?

Was it? Can you actually provide a quote where I ever said Day one that an Anka/Oto partnership was a viable theory?

And z, I wouldn't jail Kiwi. I really doubt she's scum. It's Oto or jake, or, maaaaybe Mega, but that's a stretch. Jailing Kiwi would be a waste in my opinion.

It would confirm her as town if a Nightkill went through and that would highly suggest she was in fact the scum target last night... How exactly would something that helps your case on Oto 'be a waste'?

Otolia tells the Doctor to protect the towniest person.
Otolia tells the Jail Keeper to roleblock the scummiest person.
(Let us assume, for a moment, Kiwi is innocent.)
Princess Kiwi, a person who was not seen as very scummy or very towny by pretty much anyone, was targeted.

He was trying to clear the path for a kill, but he failed.

A) Are you saying then that his statements were wrong? Should the doctor not protect the townies person and the JK not jail the scummiest?
B) If they are not wrong, then wouldn't it make sense that his opinion of me being a piss poor IC could explain why he felt the need to say it outloud?
C) If Jill left home at 5:00pm traveling at a speed of 4.5 KM an hour and John left the train station at 5:15pm traveling at a speed of 3.5 Km an hour then what time would the 5:30pm train from Oxford arrive?
D) Townies usually say "It appears he was trying to [blank]", or "I think he was trying to [blank]". Your phrasing suggests you 'know' it was his plan and as a 'townie' you couldn't possible know. Either you have become so tunneled here that your conclusion appears like reality to you, or you're scum who is trying to milk a mislynch out of the night results... either way you do not fill me with confidence on the Oto case.

[Korlash]

If you believe he is scum then why not?
...
If you're waiting for his claim, he already made one, remember?

Does this mean you have no intention or see no need to prolong the day a bit more?

[Korlash]

WHOA.

Whoa.

You're annoyed that you're being jailed? You got somewhere to go tonight?

A second ago I thought you were for not jailing her... Playing both sides of the field here?

And what's the deal ignoring my questions!

@ kiwi: As Z says, you're being jailed on a semi-policy basis. You were jailed the same night as a no kill, even you have to agree from out point of view the chance you are scum who got blocked exists, and so in light of a heavy favorite you would be the best jail target. If you want to try to explain why someone else is a better target, go ahead.

@z: Uh... Your last post made me sad...

[Korlash]

well that wasn't what I was talking about but no, I don't think saying "he wasn't scummy in this game where he was town, but he is here!" is all that big a town tell. As for lying low, seeing as how he is one of the 'obv scum' players, lying low only works for a day or two. Then it's his turn at the guillotine.

[Korlash]

Yeah and he has yet to get specific as to how his play is different in this one. in addition, he has no scum meta to play against so the only thing we can actually go on is the specifics, which have yet to be given. And did you actually read what he said?

In this game, he seems to be trying to imitate his recent rough and often insulting manner. However, he doesn't go quite as far with it as he does in other games; he pulls punches compared to what he is normally like and his buddying up to me is something that seems very strange for his meta.

He doesn't go quite as far as he does in other games? so he does do it in other games, but he does it 'less' in this game... Was he a replacement in those other games as well? because in my mind, only being around for half as long could be why he has done it 'less' in this one. he pulls punches? Where? How do you define 'pulls punches' and how do you know he is doing it? (As doing it, literally means he isn't doing something so it's impossible for you to know that he isn't doing it.) The budding thing could have merit but still need more explanation.

And, while in other games he is crass and rude, he doesn't really read as all that scummy, whereas in this game he does; not only is he crass and rude, he doesn't get as deep into the game and the reads; most of his posts are shallow compared to in other games; he leaves many things unaddressed, and simply acts suspicious the entire time.

"He doesn't read all that scummy, whereas in this game he does" just seems like a cop out line. It's not actually meta, just his opinion of multiple games Oto was in. The rest of this is good, but like I said needs explanation. And what the hell does "Simply acts suspicious all the time" mean? That's another cop out.

This whole thing is padded and vague. It screams as fake.

[Korlash]

I know. And like you I'm waiting to see his explanations...

We seem to be arguing for no apparent reason...

[Korlash]

@Mod and IC: Are we allowed to quote from other (finished) games? Is this considered taboo?

If the game is over then yes, you can reference that game with links and quotes and what not. But only 100% completed games.

Yes.

You find one quote where I mention the Anka defending Oto connection, a quote where I specifically say there 'are others I like more' [aka the jake connections]. And to top it off the quote is a response to YOUR comment of them possibly being a scum team. Wow, slam dunk my friend... *golf claps*

Are you actually able to provide a quote where I came out and said in anyway I felt Anka and Oto were likely partners? Preferably not one in response to someone else saying it? The answer is no, for two reasons. 1) being that I specifically avoid mentioning likely partners day one. It's pointless and ultimately leads to making the wrong move, and 2) because Jake was always my 'likely partner to Anka'. Sidenote, he was also the most likely partner to Oto. Go figure right... If he had more solo reason to think he was scum I would have probably pushed for him yesterday.

Or we could jail Oto/jakesh because they're higher on our scum lists and z would have a better chance of blocking the night kill.

we're lynching Jake so he's not even relevant. And I personally would rather see you jailed over Oto if we go to night. I will admit I'm wavering slightly on blocking Kiwi. I found a huge hole in my contingency plan so my WCS just got worse.

No, I'm not saying that his statements are essentially wrong. I'm saying that the way he put them, he was creating a setup where null-tell players would be open for a kill.

How is the way he put them different then the way a, lets say, 'normal' townie would have?

Eh, somewhat. That was a bit much for even an IC to say, though. "Protect the townies and jail the scummiest (and conveniently leave out null tells)" isn't something many ICs would or should say.

Yeah well a lot of what Oto says is a bit much for anyone to say I think. You factor in his arrogance and his feeling towards newbies and it sorta makes sense that he would say what he did regardless of his alignment.

Why on Earth is the train traveling at less than walking speed?

AH HA! I never said how fast the train was going. You're making assumptions and have now arrived at a flawed conclusion! Do not feel bad my young padawan, this test was designed to teach you this very lesson...

How many times has z said things in extremes of "this is" or "this isn't" without knowing for sure? It's just what makes sense to me.

*stares* but... z goes up to 11?

Ok maybe that isn't the right reference but it made me laugh so deal with it. The point is you can't afford to think in absolutes. When you do you start to lose focus of where reality ends and your perceived reality begins. in short, it's a step towards tunneling which is something you want to avoid.

And, yes. I don't think Kiwi should be jailed but her own reaction seemed kind of strange. Just like if someone votes for the same person I'm voting for with bad reasons I might get slightly suspicious.

Strange? Strange how? Do you expect people to be ok with being jailed?

[Korlash]

I misread your posts. I thought the "others I like more" was referring to connections between Oto and Anka. You can't deny, though, that you find Oto scummy.

Misread my post you mean... Singular. And yes, Oto would be my third scummiest at the moment.

I'd have much less of a problem with me being jailed as with Kiwi being jailed.

The way I see it, right now, me and Kiwi are probably about equal as far as suspicion. The difference, though, for me personally, is that me being jailed means I'm guaranteed to live, and I'd like to be around tomorrow, because I happen to think I'm a fairly clever fellow and a good asset. Sure, Kiwi is too, but I'm talking about my own hide here.

Ah so when we want to jail Kiwi, you're concern is not blocking the scum, yet when we want to jail you you no longer have that concern?

A "normal" townie shouldn't be role-directing. Especially if he knows better.

Irrelevant, don't avoid my question. How would what he said change in anyway if it came from a townie source? You said what he said wasn't wrong necessarily, just the way he put them. Well, how would a town have "put them" different?

Point somewhat conceded. But it wasn't his saying it that got my attention as much as the connection with the possible target.

Exactly. You worked backwards. You arrived at a conclusion then set about making the evidence work with it.

Okay. Still, it never seemed to be a problem when z did it.

If z jumped off a bridge...

I could see how A may be a problem, with getting a replacement.. but let's be honest, if you're not mafia or the doctor, why would you be so annoyed about getting jailed? You're just being protected, in that case. If anything you should be grateful.

By your own reasoning a while ago you should be annoyed at not blocking the scum...

Korlash, do you want z to jail me? I'd be perfectly okay with that. As long as we know who he's jailing in case he dies.

Honestly, no. I still want him to jail Kiwi.

[Korlash]

It's Jakesh, Kiwi, or Mega. Fo sho. Don't care about the order here. I'll be jailing Kiwi tonight. 'nuff said for now. I don't mind the hammer whenever. Although Poiven and Korlash are free to write more walls for me to skim and mostly ignore.

I'll admit, I'm starting to care less about when the hammer comes as well. Although the thought of robbing you of more walls to skim saddens me...

And Korlash, I'm giving up on the Otolia case. It's not going anywhere and I don't feel like pounding my fist against a brick wall anymore.

If you learn only one thing from me, and god willing that's all you suffer through, never give up on a case. There are times you need to bend to the town's will so to speak, but never outright give up.

[Korlash]

Ok... Well that's two suspects off my list at least.

I think I made it fairly clear yesterday that if Jake wasn't it I was going after Gayms? but I don't think I ever did an actual ISO on him so I'll wait to post the case until I do that. Also, while I don't think it will be as useful as the first one, I plan to do another vote spreadsheet/analysis when I have the time. Definitely in the next few days.

Lastly, I think we all know what last nights results mean so Kiwi's thoughts will be very important today. I would like to hear your thoughts on Gayms? and Oto when you gt the chance.

[Korlash]

Right, I hope you are all satisfied with the outcome ... lynching Kiwi was the best idea. Anyway my LyLo detector is starting to burn.

Why? Kiwi is town, so how would lynching her have helped any? In fact, if scum tried to kill her, wouldn't keeping her alive actually be in some way screwing them more? I mean having her as confirmed town has to be better then having Jake... For that reason alone.

And Korlash...I need to do some research on the roles we have listed, because there's something confusing me and I don't know how to word it...so my thoughts on Poiven will have to wait until I do said research.

What roles did you need to research? I could help out in that department.

Tell me something, Otolia; why were you so sure that wasn't the end of the game?

I'll give you this, it's a fairly decent point. However, while his answer isn't what I would have figured, it seems to make enough sense... at least in Oto's own special kind of way.

What do you think Korlash?

My biggest problem here is that z was an outed power role, any scum looking for a good night kill would be daft to pass that opportunity up. And considering the fact that with Z alive scum couldn't kill without confirming townies, any scum would have valid reason to kill him, regardless of whether z himself had plans to jail them or not. This means that, sadly, z's death doesn't actually point to anyone specifically because all of us (if scum) had reason to kill him.

*shrugs* as far as why someone would kill you night one... I'm more willing to believe you were targeted to frame someone, not to protect someone. Yet another reason Gayms? is elevated above Oto. Besides, I think Oto would have killed z night one and tried to pin it on me. Just a thought.

I hope to be able to get a good case post on Otolia soon. I also don't exactly know where this scum vibe on me is coming from, so I'd also like to hear more about that, Korlash/anyone else who finds me suspicious at this point.

It's coming. It's still early in the day so I'm not rushing it, but it'll be up sooner rather then later.

[Korlash]

but your sudden lockdown on Otolia isn't sitting right with me somehow.

I don't see how it's sudden... He was pushing for him almost all of yesterday.

You're recent post did give me a thought though... I might have to look into that as well.

I should have time today so expect something sometime... >.>

[Korlash]

Ok then... Lets see what we find out...

Important bits:

Post 615: Vote on Anka. Promises reasoning behind it soon. Follows it up by not providing reason, simply saying other people's cases are good. Prior to this he was pushing for an Ant lynch, saying that the Anka case was good but Ant was better. Then, immediately after Anka jumps off the Ant wagon, Poi switches to Anka as previously stated without reason. trying to save his partner tooth and nail, but as soon as that wagon falls apart he's faced with following his partner and risk damning himself, or throw him under the bus and move on...

After hammer: After the hammer he throws in the line "assuming I live" And a brief dialogue with Anka asking him "are you mafia?" Both give me bad juju from him, but hardly real evidence. Actually, come to think of it... "I have a couple thoughts in mind but I'll save them for tomorrow, assuming I live." If you had something to say, but was worried you may die, why keep it to yourself? I don't think you actually feared the NK... but wanted to look like you did...

Post 705: First post of day two, immediately goes after Oto. Now it's important to remember that z had not yet revealed he had blocked Kiwi. So that was not a factor in his original "case", but he immediately used it against Oto after z said it. In fact, he pushed this new "theory" of his along with his case, never once speculating on other night possibilities.

He spends a lot of time focused solely on Oto then...

Post 880: he keeps the Jake wagon as a possibility but sticks to his guns. It's a semi-mirror image of his comments on the Anka wagon before switching to it. the "It looks good, but I like this one more". In addition, he adds the "I still think Oto is scum... or just a scummy player." A few posts earlier he was saying "I cannot see how Oto cannot be scum" why the need to add the possibility of being town now? We went over this yesterday so moving on...

Post 888: This is his meta game on Oto. Now I'm hesitant to say anything here because I didn't do the footwork myself to fact check, but honestly, look at what he says. "He seems to be imitating his manner" "doesn't go as far" "he's not scummy in other games" I mean it's all fake meta. there is nothing in here that says anything. HE says he'll 'look into' actually providing quotes and real points but never does.

After this his stance on Ant seems to have changed overnight, literally. He makes a big show (and a double standard) involving being Jailed. And makes it clear he would be willing to Hammer Jake. All more bad juju... Moving on...

I like the implosive "replace mega" for not posting during the night. I would expect some sort of "dur me, my bad" comment but nothing... It certainly speaks for your character I suppose.

And more oto stuff...

Ok so that's a somewhat done ISO. I started a bit late in day one because that's when I was most interested. The part where he abandoned his day long push on Ant to vote scum based on other people's reasons, and then wakes up today thinking Ant is town. It's a beautiful thing really.

Oh right, Vote: Poiven

The only person that makes sense for killing Kiwi night one is you to further your push on Oto. Your jump on Anka is clearly suspicious. Your comments on the Jake wagon and willingness to abandon your Oto push suggest you want to be able to lynch whoever is up at the time. Not as open and shut as I thought Jake was... Probably best I not go that route...

[Korlash]

You're doing exactly what Korlash has taught us to do...

T_T proudest... moment of my life.. Seriously...

[Korlash]

It also says your name down in the not voting category... Come on Girl. It's day three with 4 needed to lynch! This is not the time to be holding back your vote. Live this up because you won't find yourself in this situation a lot.

[Korlash]

Korlash, you're still coming up as a town read, but something just doesn't sit well with me for some reason. I can't attack you directly because I have no true questions for you just yet, but it just seems to me like you're getting off way to easily.

Do you mean there are specific instances where something I said or did got let off too easy, or do you mean generally I'm being mostly ignored and therefore let off too easy? Because I agree with the later. It's very hard to read people's attacks on me where none exist... I would like you to try and put some of these suspicions you have of me into words.

[Korlash]

Never a good sign to come home from work without a new post... I'll attribute that to the holiday weekend I guess...

Anyway, I think I'll take a look into the idea Mega spawned in me sometime tonight.

[Korlash]

Nope nothing, I suppose that's good actually because it would have be evidence against my case. So... woohoo?

And you're wrong there Princess Peach, ha... that actually works... There is 'plenty' that can be used against me too. at least two fairly good points that could be the starters for a case. I may be careful enough not to leave around a lot of strings for people to pull, but there is plenty out there.

The main problem with this theory is that the hammer post whereas a little bit forced (the quotes aren't for Anka last post) looks plausible. I could have write something like this. Thus I like for Korleash to do what he loves : VoteCount Analysis mainly because of this :

I already did a VCA for day one, and found Ant to be unlikely scum. Do you mean one for day two? cause I'll do that first thing tomorrow night then, but I don't see what the 10ish votes yesterday will tell me.

[Korlash]

But you did found that I was highly suspicious. So what made you change your mind ?

Two things. First, you aren't a fearful player, so killing Kiwi to silence her doesn't seem your style. And not to be insulting, but killing her in order to argue that someone else killed her to frame you seems way more effort then you seem to normally put into things.

Secondly, as z so eloquently put it, why would Anka buddy his partner as heavily as he did. While I agreed very strongly with this yesterday, I have moved it down to number two because it is apparent that Anka was a 'buddier'. Numerous links to numerous people, it is plausible that he would buddy townies in order to allow him to buddy his partner. However, I still agree it was 'too much' towards you which suggests it was a set up.

You would still be my number two based on my VCA, which I still hold to the belief is accurate enough on where the scum lies.

In the case that you are VT, me and kiwi are too. So we are left with Poiven and Megatron. Why Poiven over Megatron ? I have no particular reason to target Megatron and that's not always a good sign ...

Long story short my VCA said mega wasn't his partner and Poi might be, so that's why Poi over Mega. Short story long, my interactions with him yesterday, my case on him today, it all does tilt the scale a bit in his favor you know?

[Korlash]

But see, killing you would rob the scum of the much more valuable experience of playing with you longer... No one would be that reckless... I mean that's the type of thing that only comes around a few times in a lifetime and... and... um, you're not buying any of this are you?

Oh well, I tried...

[Korlash]

I don't see how she could misunderstand you calling her scum and saying she will die today...

That is, if you are a townie. You seem to forget that I put my life on the line.

why do you feel the need to inform us you risked your life? And how exactly?

There is no reason for you NOT to claim. We know you are town, we know you are dead come morning. That's why I said you should have claimed yesterday and attempted to work with the jailkeeper to WIFOM the scum if you are actually the doctor.

What is the point of her claiming then? She can't wifom with z anymore, and if she is dead regardless claiming is just a waste of time.

Why Poiven and not Megatron ?

You ask this a lot... Do you think Mega is the better choice?

[Korlash]

Ok, I correct what I said. Both of you are dumb and pathetic. Happy ?
I don't call her scum, I say that she will die during the night which is still today because a freaking day is 24h. The word 'target' is there for the rant she made after being targeted by scum N1 which isn't proven by now (yes, you seem to forget we could have a doctor) And I don't call her scum, learn to read.

While I will admit I can be pretty dumb at times, I don't think pathetic is the right word to describe me... awesome perhaps... Handsome... Those are good ones. Unfortunately this game divides the day and night into two separate phases and it is vastly important you differentiate when talking about one or the other to prevent confusion. And it is proven by now because if we had a doctor why is z dead?

The fact that you are scum is a nice turn of event for us.

And lastly, you clearly call her scum right here. Now I'm fairly certain given the rest of that post you meant to say town, but you didn't. So stop being an ass because you're constantly wrong, and you can't be both. Either be wrong and lovable or right and an asshole, anything else is just wasted space.

Unless she is the cop but since she could do any investigation, it would also be pointless.

Exactly, regardless of what she is it's pointless to claim. Her claiming now would actually hurt us slightly. Only slightly, but still why do even that?

Megatron isn't the kind of person who is taking a lot of risks, a behavior which is employed by scum too. I'd rather cover all possibilities than just one and move on.

Poi also hasn't been taking a lot of risks... So... It doesn't really mean much.

[Korlash]

No... staying off wagons is the opposite of a risk... You're looking at it in retrospect, to be a risk it has to be seen 'in the moment'. And while sticking to your guns could be a risk, it's less risky then constantly changing your opinions...

[Korlash]

you I believe.

[Korlash]

Staying off of a wagon in itself isn't a risk, but saying why it's a bad wagon and why I don't support it is. Constantly changing your opinions is actually slightly scummy, not just risky. And I'm not talking about risks for the sake of risks, I'm talking about risks that are trying to help the town.

I suppose you could call it a risk yes... Although, not being on the Anka wagon and saying why you don't support it would only be a risk if you knew he was scum. Otherwise, if you didn't know his alignment, then saying why you don't support it is the most logical and unrisky thing to do.

On page 23. Up to now I've narrowed it down to two people, but I'm not posting those just yet in case my opinion changes over the next 18 pages, although I highly doubt it with the way things are going. I have an active case against three people, of which I intend to post all of it once I finish and review it and check for flaws.

I would suggest if you don't get it done within a day or two to perhaps post some parts of it, possible the third case, just so we can start discussing it now. I know we still have over a week but trust me, procrastinate on huge posts and a week turns into 3 days rather fast...

[Korlash]

Also, Korlash: Why were you so convinced that Kiwi was scum just because she was jailed? Why didn't you see the flaw in the logic before you finally did?

I don't believe I ever said I was convinced. if I remember correctly my thoughts on the matter was simply "I don't see why scum would have killed Kiwi" you add in the fact she was Jailed on a night without a kill and the fact we had one scum dead and zero townies dead and wagoning her up was a fairly good idea. considering how it turned out I would claim it to be a very good idea, but that's in retrospect so... doesn't mean much.

I was keen on defending you because I figured it was more likely someone had targeted you than that you were scum. I wasn't saying Otolia was the one who could have easily killed you, but rather that you were a pretty good target for pretty much anyone, and so you being jailkept and then there not being a night kill doesn't make you scum. It did, however, look like Otolia was trying to "part the sea" with the doctor and the jail keeper so that he could find a middle path, and that was what made it suspicious to me about him.

While I don't think you ever said Oto was the only one who would have killed her, I don't believe you ever said she was a good target for anyone else either. In fact, I don't think you ever talked about the possibility of anyone else targeting her...

[Korlash]

Poi I'm still waiting for some defense from my 976... I was happy to wait until yesterday but I'm starting to get antsy...

[Korlash]

Actually, I was the first to drop the Ant wagon. In fact, Ant was at L-1 when I dropped the Ant wagon, and if I had really wanted to, I easily could have had him lynched. I changed my mind to get onto the Anka wagon and was one of the main factors in getting him instead of Ant lynched. It wasn't a move of desperation, because Anka probably wouldn't have been lynched yesterday; it was a deliberate move of "I think Anka is scum, so I'm switching over."

Anka left the wagon at 613, did a quick follow up post, then you immediately switched in 615. he was at L-1 when Anka left, and considering Anka was the competing wagon without his vote ant had very little chance of being lynched. You also have yet to explain the switched vote, only further suggesting to me Anka's unvote was a factor in your switch.

I wanted to take the night phase to take a look at some of the things I had been thinking about, and didn't want to be too hasty about it. Mostly I was referring to Otolia, and the post that I posted on the next day needed a lot of time to think about and put together. I wouldn't have had time to do that before the night phase started, and didn't really see a point to push myself to do so.

Ok I can accept that. It does give me more bad juju about your case on Oto but I can move on.

It seemed (still seems) obvious that Oto was scum. I posted my case against him, which I personally found incredibly compelling, and then z posts "Kiwi must be scum because I blocked her," which 1. didn't make sense and 2. fit in with what I had ALREADY said on the Oto case, that he was role-directing. I focused pretty much solely on Oto because he was pretty much the only one I found scummy.

So pretty much from the time Anka was hammered until now you have only been looking at Oto? Are you in anyway worried you may have fallen victim to tunneling?

I mean, I can't be 100% sure, can I? I can't see how he can't be scum, no, but in the case that he isn't, he is a very scummy player.

Yes, it looked similar to that, and it was a similar situation; there was one I found scummy and one I found somewhat scummy but not as much as the former. See my first quote in this post.

No you 'can't' be 100% sure but Throwing in the "he may just be a scummy player" is just a way to explain away being wrong later. If you're willing to say you can't see anyway he isn't scum, then don't throw in an out for tomorrow.

Yeah it's pretty similar alright. A case sprung out involving a few of the more outspoken players and you made sure to set yourself up to be a part of it while remaining off of it. Hell, both times you outright abandon the case or wagon you are pushing at the time to join the other one right at the end. (never got a chance to vote Jake but you did say you were willing to hammer him...)

Now this is something that I did try to give concrete evidence on, but it's really hard to do that.. I'm talking about general impressions from other games and how he acts in this game. It's a difficult thing to do by nitpicking, that doesn't really give an overhead view.

I have some personal problems with metaing so I'm willing to believe I'm being a little over critical of this but the whole generalization "he's different in this game then another" doesn't mean anything to me and I get the impression it's just an attempt to make your case on him look bigger and better then it is.

Yeah, you're right, that was pretty dumb. I just thought "hmm, Mega hasn't posted in a while," looked at the activity list and it showed he hadn't posted in over 5 days. Not posting an apology may also have been rude or forgetful or whatever you want to call it but I don't see how you could even claim that has scum motivation.

Didn't mean to imply it was scum motivated, just something I was pointing out for you. it's not even really about being rude, it's just whenever you make some obvious mistake like that it's a good idea to acknowledge it as a mistake. Otherwise it suggests it might not be a mistake which causes more eyes on you... and you can go from there. It's all a mind game you know... >.> <.<

Isn't it? But like I said, me getting off the Ant wagon kept Ant from getting lynched. Because the case against Anka made sense. What else should I have added? There wasn't anything that hadn't already been said. Anka's flip, among other things, convinced me that Oto was scum.

You are basing a lot on something that is wrong... And when you're so convinced of one person you don't bother to look at others it suggests you might not be as uninformed as the rest of us if you catch my drift. Also, what else should you have added? How about your reasons for voting him, you're reasons for thinking he was scum, why you thought he was a better lynch then Ant at the time. You think you were the first one off Ant's wagon, why did you feel it necessary to switch?

It doesn't mean I want to be able to lynch whomever. As I've said time and time again, I could have had Ant lynched, but I didn't want that, because Anka seemed more scum at the time. And weren't you one of the ones saying you should be willing to compromise and go with your number 2 or even number 3? I don't see how stating my number 2 and willingness to switch makes me any more scummy.

How could you have had Ant lynched exactly? As for how you're more scummy, how much exactly did you go into why you would be willing to switch to your number two, or even why said person was your number two? I would be willing to compromise who I end up voting for but not how much I push that person or what I put into the vote/wagon.

So pretty much what I get from all this is you're trying to pull some town credit from you voting Anka... yeah textbook bussing.

[Korlash]

Princess I believe you meant to say "I believe Poiven to be

scum

for these reasons" in your post 1047, otherwise it just seems odd you voting him.

Regardless work just kicked my ass so all I could do was skim your posts with this massive headache I'm carrying around. All in all I like how it ended, obviously, so well done there. Hopefully more in depth criticism tomorrow.

Korlash, I don't have a lot of time, but for now I'm just going to say this.

You were calling the switch to the Anka wagon an act of giving up as scum. Now you're saying it's bussing. If I hadn't voted for him at all I would have been "sticking up for my partner." Honestly no matter what I had done (excepting leading the wagon from the beginning) you would paint it as scummy.

yeah, an act of giving up on your partner not being lynched, and resorting to bussing him. And if you hadn't voted for him then wouldn't your vote on Ant have remained? thusly, I wouldn't have any problem with you moving your vote suddenly and without reason.

Also, you really shouldn't do the whole slandering section at the end. It comes off as desperation. You still haven't been able to tell us what made Anka scummier then Ant and why you moved your vote so suddenly. try focusing on that instead of made up hypotheticals that don't exist.

[Korlash]

Otolia: I don't know how to quote names on quotes would you -anyone- please tell me how?

{quote="name"} blah blah blah {/quote} where "{}" = "[]" gives you:

blah blah blah

How about Princess Kiwi yesterday when Z came out with his jailing thing? Honestly, I could have quietly slipped onto that and been all "Z IS OUR HERO AND FOUND THE SCUM" and then just rode that out, but I didn't, because I didn't think she was scum.

And I could have easily rode Z's wagon day one instead of jumping off of it like I did. We all have instances where we 'could have' done something else but ultimately it means very little. This isn't a retrospective game, you can't look into the past and say that things could have gone differently just because of the way they played out.

Take for example this one you brought up. You could not have quietly slipped onto it. For starters, you came out before Z claimed fully gunning for Oto. You may have been able to make the switch to Kiwi but you certainly couldn't have done it quietly. Add to it that she went from what, zero votes to like three in the blink of an eye and it would have definitely been a risk to join up then. And of course lets not forget that you used the kiwi thing to further push Oto, so in theory you used it to push a lynch anyway. In reality, joining the wagon would have been riskier then using it to push another because you would have had to go from vote one to like vote three on the wagon thereby exposing yourself. This is why saying things like "i could have done this as scum" usually don't work...

Korlash, you tell me not to give up the case on Otolia, then you accuse me of tunneling for it.

Well answer me this, do you think you have been tunneling Oto? looking back, haven't you pretty much been singly focused on him for two whole days? Short of a brief period where you said you would be willing to vote Jake, not why he was scummy but simply that you were willing to hammer him, and this now instance of calling me potential scum it's been all Oto all the time. two whole days focused on one person with only two tiny snippets of even suggesting others might be scum? yeah, I think you might be somewhat tunnel struck.

And yes, it is a bit of a mind screw to tell you not to drop a case but not to tunnel. It's something you'll learn over time. But there is a huge difference between not abandoning a case and completely tunneling on it.

You say I jumped off of the Ant wagon because it was dying (which it wasn't, Anka was the only one off, sorry for the mixed-up facts; I had forgotten Anka was off of it and thought it was still L-1 when I unvoted, one of the reasons I unvoted so quickly). When you find out that isn't true, you say I was bussing.

First off, Anka's unvote was the sign that Ant's wagon was going to fall apart. secondly, in the very same post that I mentioned the wagon falling apart, I mentioned you throwing Anak under the bus, aka bussing. They are not two separate things and I have never yet changed my story as you seem to be implying. Thirdly, this is yet another time you choose to ignore my most burning question to you about this issue. WHY DID YOU VOTE ANKA? You thought Ant was at L-1 so you unvoted... ok... doesn't explain putting the reasonless vote on Anka. You said you would explain, you never did, you still haven't. You've been spending the time trying to blow my attack out of the water with this false story change angle and it's not going to work. tell me why Anka deserved your vote.

It just seems to me like you're taking a lot of things and twisting them to make me seem scummier than I am, and the entire town is following you. I don't know if that makes you scum or not, but I don't like the trend; whether it is being used against me or being used against anyone else.

Kinda like the thing you're doing with the bussing issue right? But I'll give you some leeway here. what specifically have I been taking and twisting? You say a 'lot' of things right, so there has to be a couple more instances.

I'm okay with being lynched at this point. Hear me out, though. Scum is within Otolia or Korlash. Yeah, yeah, OMGUS, but I really don't care at this point whether I die or not so that's not a factor. I "tunneled" Otolia because he was the only one who really seemed scummy to me. But Korlash's run against me has read as pretty scummy to me. In fact, many of the things in this game he has done have been done with finesse and very much like experienced scum. Once I get lynched, do me the honor of taking one of the two (or both) out tomorrow, okay?

Again, what things? Also, how does the finesse of experienced scum differ from the finesse of an experienced player? And I do like this move. Major props there. The self sacrificing attitude and the plea to take out these two players making the scum pool a total of three people. And here comes the irony, town only has two lynches left. So what do they do? They let the person willing to be lynched off the hook and turn their attention to the other two. Genius.

Will caution you on the whole "I'm ready to be lynched guys" thing... Almost never works in mainstream games. Still, very nicely done here.

However there is a problem in your logic : what if both Poiven and me are town ? What if Poiven is just a normal townie who is tunneling ? You could consider it framing but it's a risky tactics. You have to have courage to pull off such a tactic as scum. I don't know if Poiven has enough experience to pull it off. Plus both your arguments against me are not that compelling, and I believe there is an easier target (Ant) so I am not convinced.

Really? Poi isn't the guy who needs experience, he seems to have natural talent. I mean just look at him laying down the old puppy dog eye routine and scoring an unvote off of it. it doesn't take a huge amount of intelligence to think "Ok I'll kill this person because it would obviously seem like this person would want them dead." Just because someone is a newbie doesn't make them stupid you know.

Ok now that that's covered I want to give Kiwi's posts a good scrub down...

[Korlash]

Ok Got a chance to read through them. I was hoping to go over the whole thing but... Kinda not feeling up to it right now.

But I love the scum list angle. It's brilliant. I love even more how similar it is to the VCA. Hell look at it. The four people my VCA found are almost always near the bottom short of a few instances with Jake... This would have been great to know yesterday in retrospect but whatever, just fills me with more confidence.

The "I can see zMM also being scum with Otolia" thing actually made me pause for a second. That's a really good point. it's actually something that can stand up against my "Why would Anka buddy so hard" point.

I also like the two questions Poi didn't answer. It's a trend of his I don't like.

I'm not one to second guess myself at points like this over little things like this so I don't forsee any sort of vote hop going on, but I do love the extra joyjoy feelings these cases have brought me. =D I'll have to remember to partner Votecount analysis's with scum lists next time, it could save us a few weeks of heartache.

[Korlash]

@ Korlash: Do you think you're tunneling Poiven? I mean, you're focused entirely on him. Don't you think Otolia could be scum? ZMM had suspicions of Megatron, and even though it's unlikely, there is the possibility that Poiven is not scum. Then again...he's doing the same thing Otolia did and willing to sacrafice himself for the team. It seems to me like you're tunneling Poiven, which is exactly what you're accusing him of doing with Otolia.

Funny really, Yes and at the same time a huge resounding No. what I'm doing could in the broadest sense be defined as tunneling. However it differs from what Poi is doing a great deal, include both in structure and scale. While Poi has been focused on Oto alone, I have been focused on four different people. I'm fairly certain you can see why focusing on four people is less dangerous then just one.

Structure wise, Poi found his suspect in Oto day one (according to his comments) then built a case, and then started making new information fit his case. Text book tunneling. I however, started with a blank slate, ran everyone through a scumputer-esq program, received my suspect list, and then added new stuff to their case. So Poi's structure looks like "Suspect-Case-New Info", while mine is "Case-Suspect-New Info".

My 'tunneling' is a hell of a lot less dangerous on both accounts then Poi's because it looks at a wider scale of people and is structured in the least biased way. In addition, I recognize my 'tunneling' and am taking steps to help lessen it's potential damage. (That is I am following along with ant and Mega just in case we get that far) This is one reason I feel the need to question Poi on it, so that in the event he is town he can recognize what he is doing and try to fix it. One way he could start would be to elaborate more on his suspicions of me.

Two things though. I never wanted to kill Kiwi, and I certainly never gave anyone the idea I would target her in D1, this is absurd. I am perplexed by the fact that the scum targeted her. Furthermore, target her to frame me would have been ever more absurd. Until you can prove me that I gave elements (certainly unwillingly) that I could target Kiwi, I will stay with my "Poiven is tunelling" stance. Because so far it seems like the whole deal against Poiven is based on is aggressiveness against me. And that alone isn't enough.

Well as absurd as it is Poi is clearly under that impression so you can't think of him as town and still hold to the idea you didn't give anyone that idea. I personally still hold to the belief you would have target z and used it against me. I also don't see why anyone would have targeted kiwi but given the fact it's been proven the only thing that makes sense is as a way to frame someone.

And when it comes to that, you don't need to have given elements that you would have targeted Kiwi. If someone kills player A to frame Player Y then they already have some idea of what elements they are going to use in their case. And seeing as how Poi has already brought his case about you cannot deny that elements have been brought out. Whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant.

Now you're just being intentionally blind and wasting the little time we have left. if you don't want to believe Poi was trying to frame you, fine. but don't sit there and say no one has brought this stuff against you when clearly Poi himself has. You're sitting there trying to make me and Kiwi build Poi's case against you to prove to you it exists... I can't even begin to describe how retarded that is.

[Korlash]

Look, I hate hypotheticals and WIFOM as much as the next guy, but even after starting a case full-gas on Oto, it would have been easy to say "Z disproved it, Kiwi must be scum." I wouldn't be in the situation I am now, and I knew that gunning against Oto so strongly would either end up with him or me lynched. I was banking on him, but I guess we'll see how that works out.

Ok... but as scum saying someone disproved your case robs you of that later. And knowing that kiwi would have been a mislynch would have made you second guess a quick jump onto it.

Can we both agree this is essentially a wasted discussion? Cause we could literally do this for a while.

So, basically you're saying that it's a newb mistake, but it's one of your key points on me being scummy? That doesn't make sense to me. And I hate the newb card, as well, but this is the first serious mafia site I've played on. I've played on a couple other sites, but nowhere that was nearly as serious as here. Tunneling, for example, is a new term to me, and I'm still trying to find that balance.

Whoa... I seriously don't remember using it as a point against you being scum. i certainly don't remember using it as a key point... Could you point this out to me so I can figure out where the confusion lies?

And I'll tell you now. you'll be hearing tunneling a lot... and most of the time it will be misused.

First off, no, Anka's unvote did not kill the wagon at all. An Ant lynch still would have been easy as hell then, and could have come at any moment, which wass the reason for the unvote once I felt an Ant lynch would be bad.

O.O Ok... You had three wagons going on at the same time, and me and z were both pushing one together... If you honestly think Ant would have been an easy sell... then ok. I'll let you think that. I'll leave it at you thought an Ant lynch would be bad and move on... wait no... Why did you feel an Ant lynch would be bad exactly?

As for the vote, I've said this already. There was no new evidence that I could introduce that was not introduced already. I was convinced to join the wagon by the cases that had been presented. At some point there's just nothing more you can really say about a case, especially if two rather experienced players have built up wall upon wall of case. There was nothing more to add. I voted for him because the cases were compelling. That doesn't mean I had "my own" evidence.

Ok teaching moment. It's not about adding new info, it's about justifying your vote. you are responsible every time you vote, and you need to back yourself up. This gives you protection (for attacks like this for instance) and it lets us know exactly where you stand. Even if you agree with the cases presented, you should still make your own stance known. You should highlight the biggest issues, in your own words, and in your own order. Even saying the same case in your own words will add your perspective on things, and add further pressure to the person to respond.

ok back to things. Can you, even if you see no point, explain to me the general reasons you saw that caused you to think voting Anka was worth it? You say me and z posted wall upon wall, so there has to be a few points that stood out to you that made sense. I'm not looking for your own evidence, I'm looking for the specific reasons that cause you to want to vote him.

A lot of your evidence in this case just seems like completely normal things that are being picked apart, twisted, or blown out of proportion. Maybe I'm wrong because of the defending perspective, and maybe that's just how it works in this game anyway, but some of it just seems somewhat bogus.

One key way to make yourself a better player is to play to specifics. If someone attacks you, force them to give specifics, when you attack someone be as specific as possible. Like this, "a lot of my evidence..." what in particular? "A lot of" could mean a lot of things, it could mean one, or two, or all... And if you think something is bogus, by not highlighting it then it's just going to sit there forever.

I think I had done the math at some point, but I didn't realize we were down to only two lynches. But I'll be honest, I really wasn't trying all that hard not to get lynched at the end. I know that's not "playing to the town's win condition" but this game is really starting to kill me, and life is getting more and more busy; I'm going back to the states in 8 days and I've been up to a lot, and will be when I get back, as well. Honestly I somewhat hope I do get lynched today, and even considered (but decided against, obviously) self-hammering just to get it over with and let the game continue.

That's the key reason why I want to make sure we lynch correctly today. I mean I know we have tomorrow and lylo left to play with and I know we essentially have little chance of not hitting the scum by then but I really don't want this game to drag out too much longer. it's always a bad sign when even the mod starts feeling the effects of the game...

[Korlash]

And give you a chance to escape death? I think not sir... Ant and Mega are not in the crosshairs today because all evidence points to you and Poi. Two lynches means both of you can die and best chance of winning is achieved. Lynching outside of you two today and having that person flip town means that one of you survives to endgame, and if that is the scum we not only lose, but lose because we abandoned our best chance at winning.

Lynching one of you two today and having that person be the town puts us in a situation tomorrow where both Ant and Mega MUST be looked at even with the evidence saying it's you due to the endgame rule. (everyone is a suspect unless outright confirmed town) However, it's a situation in which we only have to deal with one of you and Poi, meaning looking at them and weighing it vs. the evidence on you two is easier and it prevents either of you from capitalizing on the situation. Having both of you alive and only one of ant/mega in lylo will make it a crap shoot, and I don't like endgames like that.

In short, we aren't lynching outside you two because it nulls the whole "we can't lose" bit that both the VCA and scum lists support. In addition, spending a lot of time talking about Ant or Mega today is just a waste of time. (except for maybe Kiwi) If we make it to tomorrow (I.e. don't lynch scum today) the entire day tomorrow will be discussing me, ant, and mega. And seeing as how that day is going to end it might even be better not to go into it then either. But we'll cover that if it comes to it.

So no... I don't think lynching a lurker is a good move right now.

[Korlash]

Mod: I know I don't have the years of experience that you do, but seeing as how lowing the lynch threshold actually favors the scum shouldn't you reset the entire votecount and not just the last vote?

Evidences ?

We're 43 pages into the game man, don't play dumb.

[Korlash]

Sorry Flayzilla, that was a poorly worded question.

Mod: Seeing as how the fundamental ruling of the vote count was changed suddenly, shouldn't it logically be completely reset in order to remain fair and balanced between all players?

I'm not great at wording things like this... But I hope you get where I'm coming from.

[Korlash]

Whoa, my bad flayzilla. for some reason I thought you had removed kiwi's vote. Totally forgot about her unvote.

Korlash, do you still think I'm scummier than Otolia?

Yes. Although I can't ignore how much he slimmed the gap between you two these past few pages.

[Korlash]

I believe I am voting and Kiwi hasn't been around for a while...

[Korlash]

No, we still have a few days and you're active enough I trust we have time. I really want Kiwi to post the stuff she was looking into because as much as I hate dragging the game on unnecessarily, I would hate it even more to wake up tomorrow and not have it, you know?

As for abandoning the game... I don't know... If it goes to night we would have to at least play it out a bit tomorrow. Ending the game in the night phase would be illogical.

[Korlash]

I think it would be more prone to appeasement if you want to label it something. He's asking my permission to do something in order to make me feel better about him.

Sheeping would be to do it, but call me his motivation. Buddying would be to in some way compliment me and improve our relationship. Ok, this could be defined as buddying in a broad sense I guess.

But all that aside, I think given the circumstance it's an acceptable question. With the way the game is stagnating, asking if people just want him to hammer in order to end the day is a common thing you'll see in most games. Not to mention, if you actually plan to hammer its good to make sure other people are ready and ok for it.

Glad we can at least use this as teaching time.

[Korlash]

I'm fairly certain I've made my stance between the two of you clear. I'm not going to let all the unfunness that dots this game to let Poi slip into endgame.

I was hoping to get Mega's take on all of this before Poi was lynched, but I seem to have lost that chance a while ago. And seeing as how Kiwi has managed to put her thoughts on paper I think it's safe to say we can end this wretched day anytime with no regrets.

[Korlash]

And...you couldn't have come up with a more clever death, Mr. Flay? Like being hung from a tree or run over by a go-cart, or eaten alive by ravenous birds? Shame, shame, so disappointed.

I would have made something clever... Like being ran over by a twinkie van carrying 15 crates of marshmallow fluff balls being driven by pink unicorns. Now that's classic...

So Korlash, are you the last scum ?

I wish... Since I came back from my hiatus I've been in like six games. vanilla townie in every one. Ridiculous. What I wouldn't give to be a mafia goon just one more time!

Ant was connected on the 17th after dawn. Korlash had a normal activity. I assume Megatron would not risk to post a night action after asking for replacement.

I actually saw that Mega was replaced fairly early in the night. It would have been a chore to read the game in that time, but he could very well have sent in the kill with time to spare.

That being said,

Vote: no lynch

I won't lie and say I want this game to continue on for another night/day phase. But I don't want to lose after everything we've gone through either.

Oh well, whatever. I'm going to do up a VC spread for the last two days. it might actually be worth it now. I'll go from there and see where I stand.

[Korlash]

Can I ask why Ant hasn't been lynched yet? I read the first ten pages before my mind went numb but from what I saw he was hecka scummy.

I wouldn't judge that on the first ten pages. when you're only looking at 1/4th of the game you can easily get mind numbing reads.

Umm, here's what I got anyway...will do more later BUT someone can tell me why we're at 4man MYLO instead of 3man LYLO, that'd be nice. Who protected/jailed who? Are they all dead? WHAT DOES IT MEAN?!

Night one z jailed kiwi, no kill happened. Both are now dead. Kiwi was then jailed again night two, and killed night three. So no results from her at all. Z claimed and was killed night 2, which proved there was no doctor and proved scum tried to kill Kiwi night one.

That's as far as I got before crying myself to sleep. Who replaced Quinn? S/He was my top suspect at that point...

Oto.

Can you provide links to games where you did this before?

I can also provide three more in addition to the one I've already done. one newbie, one large, and one mini open in which I replaced and didn't self vote. As that shows I self vote whenever I start a game in the RVS and I don't whenever that phase is over.

Not my best games ever sure, and I wouldn't say the self vote is ever something I expect to help me. It's just something I do for a plethora of reasons with a good chance of something coming from it. If it doesn't oh well, if it does yay.

[Korlash]

The main sticking point I had with you when I started reading the game was the self-vote, so seeing you do it in multiple games is a weight off my mind, though it seems a good deal of people find you suspicious (80% from someone "yesterday"?) so I'll be treating it as null as opposed to a tell either way. I made a start on re-reading the rest of the thread, but I figured if I got killed it'd suck to get NK'd having read 45 pages for nuthin'.

I thought it was 8% or something silly like that. And what, lil' ol' me? I'm harmless... *sharpens claws* what? No idea what you're talking about... >.>

My slot took a lot of flak D1, I'll obv read over the rest now that I'm alive and see if he continued to take heat and from where, but from what it sounds like at the end of D3, scum is somewhere in Otolia/Korlash?

With Poi gone, yeah that's pretty much where we left off yesterday...

[Korlash]

You have a point AV. It takes three to lynch today, it will only take two tomorrow. That gives us breathing room if we lynch today. Seeing as how impulsive Ant has been this game, that might not be a bad thing actually.

I also like the idea of treating today like LYLO, then no lynching after a decision has been made, then going from there tomorrow. That could also work.

[Korlash]

Spoiler: Day Two/Three Votecount

Ok got it done. I hate there's no scum to compare to but I'll see what I get out of this. I'm having internet problems so I just want to get this out while I can. I'll do the VCA asap.

[Korlash]

Ok so vca of uselessish data...

Mega's only vote for both days was on Jake. First on, stuck to it for the rest of the day. His Jake vote was always the biggest thing that stuck out to me from him. However, no vote day three would be odd from scum. He didn't have to stay under the radar so there was no reason for him not to vote. I would say the odds of being scum based on the vote count is low.

Ant was the third vote on Oto day 2 and the second vote on Poi day three. given game progression scum do tend to get bolder and quicker to act so it's possible. Third vote tell is always a favorite of mine. And his lack of any sort of vote changes could be an indicator of trying to stay out of the light by not jumping around a lot. Of course, point one and three contradict each other which drops him considerably in the scummy factor. As it stands, I would put his likelihood of being scum medium. I'm not sure which way his low posting would take him given his votes but at face value I would think lower.

Oto, fairly obvious. Third vote on Kiwi, Self vote under pressure, Switches to the lynch both days as the hammer after failing to vote that person at all either day. His revote on Kiwi is the most interesting to me, but only because I'm taking it into context. on a pure vote count analysis it's virtually nil, but when you consider both me and z had not only abandoned her wagon but were assuming her town at that point, and add in the fact she was the night one kill target him pushing her at that time is questionable to me. given just the votecount, I would have to put him as the highest possible scum chance of all three. (just for the first three points alone)

Seeing as how this virtually matches my last VCA, I definitely feel confident about my analysis. Obviously, I want to take this stuff into the game though and read through it. I still don't see how scum would be so brash as to buddy up as hard as Anka did, but honestly given how he treated everyone in the game I wouldn't be surprised if he felt buddying was a good form of distancing.

[Korlash]

To play the newbie card.

Or ...

To play the 'Oups, sorry, my bad' card.

I despised both of them but it's becoming a trend in MS particularly in D1 coming from Evildoers.

The retract is sure strange but it doesn't mean it was a town act.

Has he done either of these two yet?

You do know you yourself have hammered twice, and asked to hammer a third, all on people you didn't think were scum right? In addition, in Anka's case you actually TOLD no one else to hammer. In Jake's case you gave him all of three hours before you're forewarned hammer came down, and in Poi's case you waited until deadline was an inch away. So for scum you tried to hold his hammer off and for town you waited until you had a possible out before you dropped it.

Between you and Ant your hammers look far worse.

[Korlash]

If I wasted my breath belittling every newbie who made a, by your definition, bad play then yes, I would be one hell of a terrible IC.

Where did he play the "Oups, sorry, my bad" card? And why did he change his play the next two days?

[Korlash]

I mean he placed a vote ans stuck with it. Where-as day one he not only changed his vote a plethora of times, but ended up switching his vote to hammer someone he had yet to vote. Day two he kept his vote on you in spite of the better Jake wagon, and day three he joined the Poi wagon rather early. I'm asking if you can explain this change in play.

And what about his attempted unvote day one seems disgenuine?

[Korlash]

^Makes me stop and consider since he REALLY went for getting himself lynched D2 for a while, it didn't look like the kind of "I'll retract this pretty soon" self-vote. I'm leaning towards a NL today and figuring it out tomorrow with who dies.

Considering he was only at L-2 and was telling me and z to vote him I don't think he had that much to fear about being lynched. This is litterally the type of thing that started the whole "self vote" stigma. Exactly how many times did he in some way say "Lynch me, blah blah, win the game."? Was it just the once, or did he keep the attitude up the whole time?

Korlash, are you playing me like a fiddle?

Well seeing as how every time I attempt to play the violin I end up sounding like I'm strangling a dying, and almost mute, cat I would assume attempting to play the fiddle would sound about the same. So, does it sound like I'm strangling you while you die in a very quiet fashion? If so, then I suppose yes... I would be technically playing you like a fiddle. Now if we were to say something like playing you like a Trumpet... that just puts the wrong image in my head... >.> Can we get off the musical instrument analogies?

[Korlash]

Hmm. I mean, enough people were willing to vote him that his lynch was a strong possibility with his self-vote.
But OTOH he is kinda using it to excuse not defending himself. So.

Maybe. But it was early enough in the day and he was active enough to keep an eye on it that a lynch wasn't really a huge possibility. At the time of his vote Kiwi was still in the air as well. z had started getting second thoughts but he hadn't outright changed his mind either. In the second quote he talks about "sacrificing" himself for the town. That alone keeps the suggestion it was a ploy alive. By saying it's him 'sacrificing' himself it suggests his self vote is a town action from a town source. And when you take his attitude from day one you know that's bull. He didn't trust the newbies to get to LYLO without him, but now he thinks him dying is the best play for town? Come on. And like you said, in the third one he outright uses it to get out of defending himself.

The timing of it seems like an attempt to get the focus back onto Kiwi after z started having second thoughts. And when you really think about it, him being lynched at that time was not a high possibility. If for no other reason then the fact we had a claimed JK after a deathless night. That alone makes for a minimum week long discussion. And neither me nor Z were pushing him 'at that time' so you have to admit the wagon wasn't that huge a threat. The only possible risk was if ant impulsively voted, and even then it would only have been L-1.

[Korlash]

So why didn't you brought that up before Korlash ? Why bringing that on the table now ? Poiven's case about me was in D2, and I self-vote in D2 also. The criticism you wrote at that time didn't really struck me since I can't remember it.

So instead of a defense you choose to attack me for not saying it earlier. Well at least you're consistent. Unfortunately I can't be certain why I didn't say it earlier. What reason would you like, I was busy with the vca, then I was busy with perfect scum Jake, at the time I just thought you were being stupid, I was busy weighing the Kiwi/JK thing, you're "plan" was worse then z's plan, I didn't do the day two VCA until just now, honestly I could go all day. point is I'm saying it now and you are not going to be able to divert attention back onto me for it. Sorry mate, this is time for your A game, not the same ol' shtick.

Oh and by the way Korlash, what happened to the following ?

It's still in effect. I just don't agree with you on his hammer.

PS : Hum, I don't like the way your ISO looks like Korlash. I need to double check numerous things so it might take a while until I can have something clear.

Of course you don't. And you do that, I'll be right here waiting.

[Korlash]

As always my defense is in my posts. I don't need to repeat myself. I self-voted, which contain a risk, if you want to build a theory on how a scum could do that motive with a posteriori reasons, fine be my guest. But that's laughable.

So you claim that self voting the way you did is something that is laughable for any scum to do? And you wonder why a scum would take the risk.... Ok crazy person, you do that.

I am consistent ? I guess you are one of those OMGUS fan. So let me explain you my PoV. I am an very annoying player, people will ALWAYS be more convinced I am an evil doer than because of that. That's human. I, however, do know that fact and until the day I can be perfectly neutral in a game, I will continue to draw attention onto me in order to understand motives behind the player.

Really, me an OMGUS fan? Aren't you the one who uselessly mentioned not liking my ISO after I made an attack against you? Secondly, I don't think you're annoying, I think you're an ass. But regardless of that I'm only suspicious of you for the scummy things you've done. Lastly, this is pretty much the same thing I said earlier on in the game. So it won't mean a lot to me because that's just common play in my mind.

PS : You can postpone the smacktalk until you won. Otherwise you could well be slap in the face by a loss.

true, but I suppose we could lose even if I don't smacktalk so why take the risk right?

[Korlash]

No, the fact that you use reasons who couldn't stand at that time (like the fact that you and zMM didn't vote against me) is laughable. As a scum I could have done that certainly, but there was certainly a bigger risk that what you thought it had. So yes, I find rather moot the point you attempt to make against me self-voting without risk.

That's the only reason you care about? And no, it wasn't that big a risk. Was it risky? Sure, but it wasn't a huge gamble or anything.

PS : I believe you consider yourself like a paragon of virtue and manners ?

Not really no, although I do try to use a civil tongue in newbie games. Do you have a point with all these useless PSs?

Willing to take you up on your offer. As town, you have NO reason to do what you're doing, so the only option I have left is to conclude that you must be scum.
Korlash, Ant; lynch today or NL to tomorrow?

I actually see a reason why a townie would do it, although it doesn't appear to be what Oto had in mind when he did it. I'll admit it's a gamble even I would use in certain LYLOs. Don't see the point in a four-man though.

As much as I want to no lynch, my minds eye sees day dawning with you dead, ant and oto voting each other, and me holding the game in my hands. While I'm fine in that situation, given the choice I'd rather have someone around to bounce idea's off of and keep me in line. (and share in the blame.. ) If we're going into that situation tomorrow, might as well do it while we have more people to cross check.

The only downside would be if you happened to be the last scum, which I find least likely. This would actually be the second time I lost a newbie game to a replacement with a lemon avatar that i wrote off as town, and you know... I would be fine with that, if only so I can tell people that "always happens to me"... Funny story to tell at parties.

I will be willing to lynch today but not on a whim. I want to hear your case on Ant first.

[Korlash]

Naw, if I had an evil plan in the works I would have tricked one of you into suggesting it so I could just sit here and "agree" to it. Then when it all went horrible 'wrong' I would just shrug and say 'it wasn't me' with a sweet and innocent face.

Ahh... to be evil... I miss those days.

[Korlash]

Ok I'm back kiddies. you miss me? no... not even a little? Fine... Like I care... ;_; *tear*

Ugh. Well, he lurks, then comes back with an Ank towntell out of his ass.
Ank waits a while to put him at L-1...when he does, and someone threatens to hammer, he moves to zM. I dunno if the initial vote is bussing and the unvote was to save his pal...or whether he was trying to secure a mislynch then distance himself from it.
Ant's hammer seemed semi-accidental due to the attempted retraction...:\

exactly when was this ank towntell? Or more to the point, how early in the game was this period of lurking?

Anka was the type to buddy, so putting his partner at L-1 when his own life wasn't in immediate danger seems out of character. he only had 1 vote on him when he placed the ant vote. I'm thinking mislynch attempt. He removed it to put it on Z. It doesn't take a brain scientist thing guy to realize that a z mislynch was a hell of a lot better then an Ant mislynch day one.

And the redactions isn't semi-accidental, he knew anka was at L-1 and he knew he was hammering, so it wasn't an accident. The redaction just shows he wasn't interested in being credited with it, which suggests he didn't know how Anka would flip.

I don't want to write it off completely as newbtells, but I'm kinda leaning on that atm.

To me, they aren't newbietells, but outright town tells. Even after he takes heat for his initial vote jumping, he isn't afraid to place a vote.(short of a small grace period that is) The initial vote hoping itself shows a disinterest in staying hidden. Even newbie scum instinctively know to be careful with their vote, while vanilla town know it's the only thing they can do. I'll admit his voting habits do tend to favor joining wagons already in progress. And he goes from being the third vote, to the second vote, to the first vote over the last three days which is a clear bold progression...

Oh wow, I think I see why it's so hard to write him off now...

[Korlash]

Cleverly done, although now you realize that if you're scum you may as well admit it because you're tricked, at bare minimum, one of us into falsely admitting we're scum and so you may as well start enjoying your victory early.

And while there are a plethora of things to which I now feel like admitting, such as the fact that I cried at the end of The Princess Bride, the fact that I wet the bed until i was 14 months old... sad I know, and the fact that I learned how to ride a bike, then became one of the tens if not hundreds of people who somehow managed to forget that knowledge in a mere matter of fifteen odd years or so... I sadly have no urge to admit that it is, in fact, butter and I tricked you into not believing in it.

Actually, now that I see that... doesn't that look like it could be a metaphor for being scum? Huh, scum is butter... who knew right?

[Korlash]

Hmmm... I really don't want to have to go to a three man lylo, but there are too many unknowns for anyone to really put effort into this right now...

I've been thinking about something, risky but I think well worth it... on the one hand we could lose, but I think if that happens we would lose anyway. On the other hand we wouldn't have to no lynch, and discussion could be more focused today. And of course on the third hand it could backfire in multiple ways but I think I'm ok with the outcome that would spark because it wouldn't actually change the situation but it might motivate us...

Yeah I actually think it's worth the risk... Here goes nothing...

Unvote:, Vote: otolia

*waits and does shifty eyes*

[Korlash]

good.

Unvote:

voila... No need to no lynch.

[Korlash]

wait, whut?

Well you see, Oto was at L-1. if AV were scum he would have hammered and won the game. instead, he didn't, which confirms him as town. Now with him confirmed as town our scum pool is down to three; you, me, and Oto. If we no lynch, AV will die and the scum pool will remain the same. So there is no longer any reason to no lynch.

[Korlash]

That's not right AV. If I were scum, then you 'taking the bait' would have resulted in me winning. So you can't write me off as town for that... Sorry

[Korlash]

There is absolutely no risk for Korlash. You considered him as town, he considered you as town. So what if you are ConfTown ? It's not like you are the first in line. If Ant is scum then the likelihood of him hammering is very low. On the other hand scum Korlash looks better now that he has done that.

I'm not happy about the maneuver at all.

Of course you're not happy, you were pointing to AV as a suspect in 1183 and I just killed that route. And I wouldn't be calling AV town if I were scum. That would limit the possible mislynch opportunities and further restrict any nightkill I can do tonight.

for example, if AV is all over you then taking him to endgame with me would be ideal, but by calling him town that means there is no way I could lynch him tomorrow. Calling anyone town at this point would just hurt the scum.

On a side note I get where AV was coming from now, although I wouldn't put it past me to do this as scum. I'm a very weird player like that.

[Korlash]

Korlash, the more you tell me you'd do it as scum, the more I WIFOM my way around the initial WIFOM of you wouldn't say that as scum and decide that maybe you're actually scum

That's the trouble with WIFOMing... damned if you do, damned if you don't, damned if you turn your head and squint to the side, damned if... you can take it from here I think...

Fallacy. You previously said that either you *cough* or AV is gonna die. With your move, you basically justify the NK on AV (if we decide to do a NL tonight) or you secure the position of AV who wasn't anyone's topscum (yes I didn't exclude him but that's because leniency lose games in LyLo) at your side.

What move, my hammer test? What does that have to do with calling AV town? And the test itself negates a no lynch so that first point is utterly useless. And I can certainly see how secure he is 'on my side' what with all the arguing I've done with him over his town read. Come on Oto, you're better then this.

I thought you didn't see any reason to go to 3man LyLo anymore and now you want to ? Are you confused ?
You don't need to lynch him anyway, he is in your pocket right now. You don't need to lynch him, just point the finger at Ant or me and you shall have your victory as scum.

It was a hypothetical example used to illustrate a point about why scum calling anyone town in endgame is a liability. As I was playing the role of scum, I had the assumption that we no lynched and I hadn't confirmed AV as town. So no Oto,

I'm

not the one that's confused.

And as much as I'd like AV in my pocket *wink* I need him free of any abnormal bonds that might influence his opinions of Ant so I can get a non-biased picture of him laid out to compare to you. sadly, I don't feel I'm capable of doing that myself after everything that's gone on.

My vote stays on you. Scum.

Cool, how about bringing forth that case you mentioned before.

[Korlash]

Guys... What exactly does a "3 man LyLo" involve?

Well a three man LYLO is referring to two town and one scum alive. Currently we are in a four man MYLO, three town and one scum. By no lynching we let the scum kill one of us making it a 2v1 endgame. This would eliminate a suspect and make it that much easier to find the scum. But as we have a confirmed town, no lynching won't eliminate a suspect. So it's better to lynch today while we have that extra vote needed to lynch to reduce the chances of scum capitalizing. Not to mention to get the opinions of a confirmed town in endgame never hurt anybody.

*For reference: LYLO means 'lynch or lose' it means that if you no lynch, you lose. so in this situation you HAVE to make a lynch in order to have any chance of winning. MYLO means "Mislynch and lose" meaning that you can No lynch and still have a chance at winning, but if you lynch wrong then you lose.

[Korlash]

You are a twisted person.

WIFOM all the way.

Yeah I've been doing YOGA. so nice of you to notice. Although I do hate that you use this to just ignore everything I said instead of real responses.

I love how Korlash tries to make you believe there were a risk when he put me at L-1.

Elaborate please...

However if I can't selfvote so it doesn't say anything about my alignment. Ant is very unlikely to post something each day so the risk of quickhammer is very low. It leaves you, AV to not-vote and become ConfTown. After that, Korlash unvotes. Why unvote since he believes I'm the scum. The risk of quickhammer of Ant is also low (because he is almost not here) and the likeliness of him quickhammering twice in the same game is very low too. He unvotes to make you think he is town whereas is unvote is irrelevant (since based on his belief, I am the last scum)

While I do think you are scum the entire point of the excessive was to confirm AV, not to keep a vote on you. I'm an advocate of lynching today because of the +1 it takes to lynch, putting you at L-1 just wastes that entirely. And I think I'm made it clear I have not given up all suspicion of Ant so playing that card on me is just stupid. Post your case on me so we can get some use out of you please instead of standing around acting like a victim.

What does it change ? It removes a risk. -> IT WAS EVEN LESS RISKIER FOR HIM. Thanks for the help, now you have to re-consider him.

It might not change anything but it proves you aren't keeping track of the facts... merely saying anything you can to discredit me or make me look bad regardless of any truth behind it.

Korlash: bounce your Ant thoughts off of me.

Will do. Only here for a second so I needed to respond to them first. I'll get this as soon as I get back. either later tonight, or first thing after work tomorrow. Now that my other game is over I should be able to devote more attention here.

[Korlash]

Boy that was a tough couple of days...

Hey... where'd everybody go? On that note... where is Flay... FLAYZILLA, did you pass out? Should I send a swat team?

@ Korlash : Why would I post my thoughts on you with a weak case perfectly knowing that your rhetoric being way better than mine, I won't be as compelling as you are to AV. I don't need to sacrifice my already weak position in order to gain an very uncertain advantage. You might consider me as an ass but you are way more able to insult people without swearing than I am. If you consider than I am 'useless' (even though I just proved that you hammer bait was absolutely neither town nor scum and that it wasn't risky at all) then tell it now and I will go in holiday sooner and prod-dodging until the games end since it's not really frown upon here.

Here's a question then, why me over Ant?

[Korlash]

Korlash: bounce your Ant thoughts off of me.

Ok so my biggest thoughts. Ants been the 'least active' of all the new players without abandoning the game. I find this a huge town tell in newbie games like this. Newbies that get bored or decide the game isn't worth their time eventually replace out, and newbies given a power role or a scum role tend to put more into the game then ones given simple vanilla roles. Ant's failure to leave the game shows dedication, but lack of action shows bland role. So statistically I would say his chance of being scum is low.

Assuming Ant as scum, what is his motivation for posting:

I don't want to be replace but I'm not sure what to post. :/

Scum is one lynch away from winning, and his pattern has been growing more bold over the last few days. So why the failure to push his vote? That doesn't fit with scum ant.

And lastly, the Jake wagon. that case was too good for scum to have ignored it. Ant is the only one of us not on it, and that makes no sense for scum in his position. He had just lost a partner, had his kill foiled, and he DOESN'T join such a blameless mislynch? Bull...

Thoughts?

[Korlash]

It could be nerves. I'd have to go back and look at the progression of the Jake wagon. And yes, Oto replaced Quinn.

[Korlash]

We would need Flayzilla around for that...

but seeing as how you haven't been able to give me a whole lot of new perspective on Ant, I would have to ditto that sentiment.

[Korlash]

If you didn't BS the quicklynch to have fun, then Korlash is the last scum. Without hesitation.

I don't actually get what you're saying here... Does this mean if we do BS the quicklynch, then I'm not scum?

Why not Ant?

The thing that stays my hand is
Oto's only chance as scumsurvival is to attack Ant.
He's attacking Korlash instead, someone who I've proclaimed town.
There's no way he's getting a Korlash mislynch, so why didn't he change tracks to Ant?

This is exactly why I asked him why me over Ant a couple posts ago. It seems stupid to go after me instead of ant in his situation, almost regardless of alignment. Some of my top speculations include that he pushes me to try and force a no lynch today and bring it into a 3 man lylo tomorrow, where he actually might have a chance to mislynch me. Or given the situation, he may not see any chance of winning, Ants against him without hesitation, I've been sticking to my 'plan' for the last couple of days that says hes the last scum so he has to imagine I'll vote him almost regardless, and you've shown to be stuck between him and Ant, with him as the most likely candidate. With his need to leave the game coming up, this all could add up to him seeing no way to win, so he chooses to spend what time left trying to discredit me or something.

Honestly, the only way to get any insight in this is to hear his stuff on me and Ant and he has refused to do that so far...

[Korlash]

Leniency with Ant. After calling me useless for the last 2 days, he never EVER do anything to get Ant back in the game. And he has obviously forgiven the quickhammer which was certainly a good thing for scumKorlash.

Calling you useless for the last two days? Exactly how many times have I called you useless? And have those accusations ever come alone, or were they bolstered with paragraphs upon paragraphs of me trying to get YOU back in the game?

As far as being lenient with ant, I think you're confusing that with me just thinking he's town. Hell, I just recently outlined a whole post about WHY I think he's town. You can call that leniency, but unless you actually argue those points you're just blowing smoke.

And lastly, yeah... I probably haven't done a lot to get Ant "back in the game". Probably because I don't see it as the most necessary thing to waste my time on. Getting him back in the game with the way he posts essentially boils down to asking him something, or giving him something to respond to, and then waiting for his answer. That's a huge waste of time. I'd rather use this time to pick AV's brain and motivate yours. And if you do the numbers, Ant being more active would only further illustrate how unproductive you've been and that could end up skewing our results and causing a potential mislynch. Keeping him at his level of activity would help to keep the two of you on equal footing and maximize the chance of lynching correctly.

I would like to know what you mean by forgiving the quickhammer being good for Scumkorlash if you wouldn't mind though.

Based on D1 interactions with Anka, you could read Korlash as town but Anka was a newbscum and many of his answers at Anka are also advices. Furthermore his vote pattern is confusing too. First himself then the scum and then he swapped while monitoring the situation on Anka (at one time I was also at L-1 with Anka) and finally Anka when it's seems too late.

Most of my

posts

are advice... And I've been spreading those around freely. You should go into this voting pattern thing though. I'd like to know how I was 'monitoring the situation on Anka" and I would like for you to explain how my vote on him was after it was 'too late'.

After that Korlash was very cautious with his targets. He didn't look scummy while still being able to be in each wagon. That's the job of a puppeteer. and with many newbies he seemed to cruise through the game. I was always suspicious of him and considering AV refused to quicklynch (considering he didn't BS us) and that Ant has no motivation to play anymore and thus to win, he is the last possible scum.

Still being able to be in each wagon? I started and lead both of them... You should lead with that instead of trying to be coy... Is it that Ant has no motivation to play, or is he intentionally prod dodging? I've forgotten which one you're tossing out now. How exactly is his play today different from his play yesterday when you thought he was scum?

I'm here, you guys just aren't doing anything interesting. Dance, monkeys, dance!

Ha, I'm not falling for that trap...

NO! AV, It's a tr-

/dances

*shakes fist* I was too late!!!!

[Korlash]

Vote me so I can go in holidays sooner. I don't really care. I don't want to spent 3 hours trying to get my mind straight and express clearly what I think about Ant and Korlash. So scum gets a default win whoever the last scum is.

See, the one thing about this game is that it's a team game and letting your side down in endgame really ruins it for the rest of them... I get that you're fed up and want to leave but you owe it to the rest of us to put some effort into it.

Vote: Otolia

Returning the favor eh AV?

[Korlash]

Really Oto, all we want from you right now is why you no longer think Ant is scum... I don't get why I would even come into it or why it would take more then ten minutes...

[Korlash]

Since Korlash is town (and I don't have to fight his rhetoric which was more than i was ready to handle) you have until Sunday to ask me every question you want, I'll answer them as precisely as I can.

Why exactly where you so pushy of lurker lynches earlier due to how bad they would be in 'endgame' when you just consider lurkers town in endgame anyway?

Wow. That's a dirty trick. Claiming you are town and that you don't want to play anymore so voting you will result in a scum win. Now that we know Korlash and AV are confirmed townies you're the only one left. From my point of view, you are 100% scum.

Since it's now between him and you you'll need to do as much as you can to convince us it's him. So read up on his play, throw some attacks his way, bolster your case on him, etc. Now is the time for action!

[Korlash]

I never said Ant was town. It simply didn't make any sense not to participate like he did if he was scum and since you made the lucky hammer, I was more inclined to see you as scum. I'm still puzzled.

Ok, you consider lurkers less scum in endgame. Same difference, different wording. Also, what's the lucky hammer?

Concerning you being the easiest lynch, it's mainly because of your mistake in D1 (which now isn't a mistake but a scumtell from my PoV). I think we should have lynch you sooner (I explained it at the beginning of D2)

I have been thinking more on the hammer. Scum Ant could have rushed into the hammer without reading to grab the cred and only saw what you said after it was done. I suppose in that situation he might have felt scared of the pressure that would come from hammering when you told him not to. It's a bit hard to believe, but he has used the excuse "why would I hammer my partner" at least once today so it's plausible.

Because I thought Ant was scummier than Megatron. Megatron barely participates anyway and he was barely mentioned in D1. There was little to set me on his trail whereas I had a case about Ant yesterday.

Yeah but you also pushed Ant day one... In fact, you jumped on him right after Anka was first voted... And stayed on him for the rest of the day... Hell, it even looked like Ant was on his way to being lynched instead of Anka for a bit too until Anka jumped ship and Poi followed suit... Let me see... ant didn't react to the original Anka 'wagon' at all... But Quinn did... an immediate Ant vote... Deja Vu...

That's quite a pattern especially when you consider it was over two personas...

[Korlash]

Seems Sunday's continue to suck for me. Sorry about that. Lets see... what did I miss...

Interesting that Ant has become more active now...

Minus Flayzilla's explanation, in endgame everyone is going to 'look' more active. less players mean each individual looks more active even if they don't increase their posting habits.

Megatron wasn't scummy at all and I was right -> I don't need to justify not pushing for a Megatron lynch yesterday.

Considering scum would have known Mega was town, being 'right' doesn't mean much. And seeing as how your platform on 'lurkers' is in question I think you do have to justify it.

And yes, of course, you can lose the game without me, that's precisely what this town has been doing since zMM has revealed himself. Poiven was a bad lynch yesterday and I should probably have change my place with his, he wouldn't look that scummy for being honest.

This whole bit just rubs me the wrong way. Martyring yourself while reminding us of Poi and trying to put the fear into how we've been loosing the game since day 2... Seems like you're trying to upset suspicion on you.

Why do you think Ant is town ? He had a poor D1 and was absent the whole time. It's difficult to read someone like this and you consider yourself too good to do that. That's your loss.

How is Ant's 'poor day one' different from the countless other newbies that also have poor day ones? Sadly that and being inactive comes with the territory. Honestly, Ant got early pressure and was able to get out of it, rode as the lead wagon/competing wagon to scum for most of the day, and ultimately hammered the scum. All in all I would say he had a fairly good day one. But this is all irrelevant because you didn't show how poor=scum.

No. The oups-my-bad hammer makes Ant scummier than Ant. I don't know what Korlash thinks of this but anyhow, you have 3 hours left until the virtual end of the game for me.

See i still think the opposite. The "oups my bad" hammer seems more likely town. the stalling the hammer by demanding no one else do it sounds more like scum to me then Ant's.

So AV... any final words here? I mean, regardless of the outcome, I really can't see any justification in not lynching Oto. Poi wants it, Kiwi wants it, My VCA says we need to do it. He's scummy, Ant's not when you actually look at it.

[Korlash]

Vote: Otolia

[INB4 Korlash was a fiend and is actually scum refusing to quickhammer to torture me]

I was all ready to hammer him last time, I just wanted to know why he didn't go after Ant today first. Nothing to do with Torture at all... That Aside, if this isn't a victory for us I'll eat my hat... no, you know what... If this isn't a victory I'll eat Flay's hat...

[Korlash]

I actually talked to Kiwi about this after she died. She should have claimed D2, it would have made this game a whole lot different, in that it would have meant two confirmed town going into MyLo.

Yeah I was going to bring this up myself. Kiwi not claiming was probably the worst thing that happened to this town. I mean it's bad luck enough the cop got jailed night one, but to allow it twice... Although, you claiming was also fairly bad for the town seeing as how I no killed night one... Fell right into my trap on that one I'm afraid.

Yeah, I guess there were a number of things going against town in this one. I still don't really understand how or why Poiven got lynched, guess I should have twigged that scum Korlash was at the heart of it. But I couldn't get over Otolia, no matter how much I tried

Poi switched onto Anka's wagon for no reason... NO REASON! And that ruined my day one plan... But I guess that's my lucky break because if he hadn't Anka might not have died and the cop might not have been jailed...

So basically he just dragged it out?

Not on purpose... I didn't think AV was going to unvote and I wanted Oto to have to answer for why he thought ant was scum. by the time he did though AV had unvoted...

Thoughts, Korlash?

My ultimate lylo was going to be me, ant, and oto so I pretty much figured this was going to happen. there was no way I could lose in that situation. Mega being replaced cause me to change it up on the fly, hence confirming him to make it my ultimate lylo, but that seemed to work in my favor for some reason.

I also have no qualms about releasing the Scum QT. It's something everyone should look at anyway.

Ha ha ha... don't tell me you were reading that? I shouldn't be left alone in a QT... I get crazy... And I wouldn't mind it being released. At least then I won't feel like it's something I wasted my time in.

I also have no qualms about releasing the Scum QT. It's something everyone should look at anyway.

I have three games where I'm town and self voted on speed dial just for such occasions.

I found Korlash's case on me scummy but didn't want to say anything because I just would have been accused of OMGUS <.<

Yeah well I was mad at you for being the reason Anka was lynched... >.> Jerk, killed off my buddy... had it coming I say...

@ KIWI:

Who did you investigate night one/two?

And was there a dead QT?

[Korlash]

Korlash votes Otolia, putting Otolia at L-1. There is NO RISK involved here, because Korlash knows that AV is Town, he's merely confirming it to gain towncred.

I should make it clear I had no intention of getting any cred out of it at all. That was just a bonus. All I wanted to do was forgo night, and the subsequent no lynch, to both speed up the game and put me in my winning lylo without having to actually kill AV.

[Korlash]

After I was killed it was literally head-bang at every new post, especially when I saw all the scummy posts Korlash made. I wanted to pretend to be a regular VT D-2 rather than claim, because at least as a regular townie I had the chance to live, wheras if I claimed Cop then I knew I would be killed.

Yeah but as a confirmed townie you would have been killed too. At least by claiming you keep z alive AND give the town a second confirmed town. Very good lesson learned I think.

Also, what scummy posts? <.< >.> I wasn't doing anything... I had town's best interest in mind all game long, I swear...

@ Korlash: What was going through your head when your buddy was being lynched? :p

'Holy shit, holy shit, someone vote Ant already...' or something like that.