Newbie Game 1106: Death with a 2x4 (limps to finish line)

[mrguy888]

mrifnoc\

What does this mean? I could not find this term on the wiki.

Also confirming.

[mrguy888]

Oh never mind I just got it lol.

[mrguy888]

Central time zone for me. It is 9:10 here for reference.

[mrguy888]

I was away for the weekend. I will be active from this point onward. I am just catching up on the reading and will post more soon.

[mrguy888]

I think Ant is being very flighty. It is probably excitement/nerves because it is your first game (I feel that way at least) or it could be because you are scum. It could be both.

I am going to

vote Ant

because I think that is the best way to get information at this time.

[mrguy888]

After reading everything for a second time I have formed a few thoughts for you Ankamius.

The very first discussion about the self voting looks town like because it is got the posts flowing. A more suspicious take on it could be that Korlash and Poiven are scumbuddies who tried to distance themselves in an early dissagreement but others put a wrench in that by contributing. It is unlikely, but if one of them turns up scum this may be worth adding to a list of suspicious behavior.

Another thing I find notable is Dr Doom. I can't tell if his zealous finger pointing is scumhunting or not. He seems to jump at someone new in every post with nothing to back it up. Then he excitedly jumps on the Ant wagon. He seems to be throwing things everywhere and hoping something sticks for a quick lynch.

I am sure it will get pointed out that I am voting for Ant too, so I will just post my explanation as to why that is different in advance. I am voting Ant because he seems very reactionary so I thought putting pressure on him would yield information not a lynch. When I read Dr Doom's post where he votes Ant I get the vibe that he is hoping for a lynch.

All in all, my answering of you question has made me rethink my current vote.

Unvote
Vote: Dr Doom

[mrguy888]

I said it rubs me the wrong way, not that I find it completely scummy; basically what I'm trying to say. I didn't say it wasn't important, just that it's not that important. Also, it was a reason for a random vote; I'm sure you also don't find "cake stealing" to be that important in a game of mafia.

You're a bit wishy washy here. Scum?

This isn't wishy washy at all yet you start with soft scum accusations.

I'm also unclear about your stance on Poiven. In post 47, you seem to stand beside him and call him out in the same post. Are you actually torn on the issue, or are you trying to gain favor in both sides of the argument?

Me thinking that his point is true has nothing to do if I think that he might be scum. If anyone, even the most scummy player says anything that I think is true, I will say so, scummy or not. Your question excludes the middle - the way you phrased it, it (tried to) paints me into a corner of either being with Poiven or not, thus trying to get me caught in a non-existant Contradiction. At least that is what you might have been trying to do. Finger of Suspicion for that.

You avoid a question that if you have nothing to hide should be an easy question to answer. You get a bit defensive and redirect the suspicion. This is a bit suspicious to me.
I may have been jumping at shadows with the vibe that you were hoping for a lynch but I still feel it is something worth noting for the future. I got this vibe because you were casting suspicion on to everyone and then as soon as others starting making a bandwagon you jumped on with the reason that he said something that you think may or may not have been scummy or overly cautious. It struck me as a bit opportunistic so I made that known.

I was going to vote for korlash but as a placeholder vote until now I was voting for you. Now that you've come out I'll switch my vote. Once I et a little bit more info I can always switch back. I dint think I was quick to point fingers, I was just pointing out your inactivity. I totally get it though, I was overwhelmed at first as well.
Unvote embit
Vote Korlash

This comes off as a indecisive, like "I don't care who dies, as long as it is not scum", but this depends on how favourable the reading is.

This bothers me. To me it seem that you are taking null tells and trying to make them seems scummy. This is not even close to what is said. It is not that I think Ant is town or scum, I just think you are pushing really hard without reason.

I will read through everything for a fourth time and post more thoughts in a couple hours when I have more time.

[mrguy888]

While a couple people seemed suspicious to me at first, the first person who I actually think looks scummy is Muffin. Looking back at his posts I see some major issues I would like him to address.

and confirming intent to pull an archon in this game.

Oh, yeah? Well, I'll call you an idiot and tell you to lynch me.

Sheeping the IC. Also stealing cake is generally a scum-motivated action.

His first three posts have laid the groundwork for him to go about acting scummy, making no sense and not thinking for himself. While this on its own at the start could be seen as joking around he has really lived up to his first claims.

Muffin then votes for Ant with no reason given. He claims he needed to get sleep first but his reasons for voting Ant were barely longer than his explanation as to why he didn't give an explanation right away. In his next post he votes for someone else with his only reasoning being he is doing whatever Korlash does. He gave no reasoning in his last 3 posts to date which were him giving really weak defenses about voting Ant and his reason given later.

If he isn't scum he is at best playing rather anti-town. He doesn't think for himself and when he acts on his own he gives no explanation. He has not posted any content in the game, and based on his posts so far he doesn't seem to intend on doing it anytime in the future.
UNVOTE: Dr Doom
VOTE: zMuffinMan

[mrguy888]

I've um... managed to call people out on their confirmation posts before... <.< very unique way of looking at things sometimes.

Heh. You posted this while I was writing my thoughts on Muffin. I didn't want to read your wall of text before I posted because at first glance it looked unrelated to my post, but I find this funny considering that confirmation posts are a part of my suspicions of Muffin.

[mrguy888]

mrguy888, your case on zMuffinMan is, in my eyes, somewhat weak. Very slight scum vibes for that, but only very slight.

I suppose, but to be fair there is only 12 short posts to go on. I think some pressure on Muffin is warranted to force him to act or give off scum tells though. He needs to give better reasons than he has for his actions. And to be clear, this isn't a case against Muffin but more of a list of action I want him to explain written in a way that I hope gets more people interested in pressing for explanations because the more people press, the more likely he is to explain himself.

[mrguy888]

Just a quick note that Ant is at L-1 so be careful where you place your votes. We still have daylight to burn.

[mrguy888]

If someone had hammered him, though, yeah, I would have been annoyed, and probably would have seriously questioned their town alignment.

I put the L-1 warning so people couldn't hide behind saying "I didn't realize". Everyone should double check the current vote number before ever submitting a vote and put an L-1 warning if their vote is the second last one. We don't want a quick lynch and especially don't want a scum to get away with doing it.

[mrguy888]

Your reasons given did seem to be bad attacks and vote hoping which did seem to match up with Anka's reasoning

Well, my only problem with vote-hopping is that it's hard for me to solidify a read when someone does that, so I wasn't really voting him for vote-hopping, just commenting that I didn't like it.

@mrguy888, re:#178

Which "major issues" do you actually want me to address? All I really see is a smear campaign.

I'll try to make it more clear for you then.

So, why the vote on Ank?

Well, Korlash summed up his early play quite well,

so I'm just parroting him here...

This is probably my biggest issue. You have not posted very much of your own thinking. Another issue is how you keep saying things that on the surface seem in jest about making yourself look scummy. The quotes in my original post about my thoughts about you contain the first three times you did this. I can't help but suspect more sinister motives. Why would a town player resign himself to not making sense and sheeping?
The little you posted without following Korlash was your vote against Ant.

Actually, he gave us little to no explanation.

Just because I didn't go into massive amounts of detail with pbpa, analysing every little thing he's done, doesn't mean I didn't give an explanation. I've given my reason for voting Ant,

if you want to pick it apart, go ahead.

If not, why do you keep mentioning it?

Sure I will give it a shot. You said your reasoning was "

gut + his early posts were bad (I'm having a hard time reading his attack on Korlash as genuine and his vote hopping wasn't helping my read).

" I don't understand why this had to wait. It couldn't have taken more than a couple seconds more to type that than "

Remind me to explain this when I'm awake.

" It seems more like a cop out explanation to me. Here you state that vote hopping was part of the reason you voted for him yet you later state:

Vote-hopping in itself is not a scum tell, and is something I don't find scummy. It's actually something I find town are more likely to do than scum

This is a contradiction. Why did you put it in your reasoning as to why you voted Ant?
The major issues that I would like to see you address is lack of explanations and sheeping as well as preemptively announcing that you are not going to make and logical sense and keeping with your promise. Both those things seem very scummy to me.

[mrguy888]

EBWOP: make

any

logical

[mrguy888]

You have not posted very much of your own thinking.

This comes down to you disliking my playstyle.

I give information when asked or when I deem it necessary. I don't share every thought.

If you want specific information from me, you're going to have to ask for it. Otherwise, you will have to make do with what I decide to volunteer. I'm happy to answer questions, but I'm not going to voluntarily say everything I'm thinking unless I see reason to.

How does this help town? Sharing information is required to rout the scum. If you share your thoughts it will help town find the scum among us. Not sharing information and posting fluff and self defense is active lurking which is an anti-tow thing to do. It doesn't matter what playstyle you have. To me it is as simple as this: If you are acting anti-town consciously, you are acting scummy.

Another issue is how you keep saying things that on the surface seem in jest about making yourself look scummy.

What issue do you have with this? Are you suggesting it's more likely I'd do this as scum than as town?

If you take that in context my problem isn't the jesting. That is really a null tell. My problem is how you have actually been doing what you joked you would. I see that as you trying to pass off acting scummy as harmless and funny by joking about acting like that beforehand to pass under people scumdars despite acting scummy.

Why would a town player resign himself to not making sense and sheeping?

A few questions on this...

Are you implying that something I've done doesn't make sense to you? Or are you implying that you think I'm intentionally trying not to make sense?

Do you really think I've resigned myself to sheeping? What do I stand to gain from doing this if I'm scum? More specifically, why do you think this makes sense as a scum strategy?

Nothing you have done has made sense to me if I think about it from a townie point of view. I think that you knew you would have a hard time justifying your reasons and be convincing with the knowledge that you are scum.
I have not seen anything that has convinced me that you are not sheeping. I base this on the fact that you said you were twice and simply voted without giving any real reasoning. The reasoning vote you did on your own seems to be contradictory. As a scum strategy it seems like you want to have a bit of leeway when it comes to scum tells like voting analysis by jokingly sheeping. All I know is that it isn't a very good town strategy.

I don't understand why this had to wait.

Because it was a pure gut vote based on what I had read at that point. I was tired and didn't have the energy to justify it at that point, but thought I'd justify it when I was awake. I woke up, saw him at L-2 with someone expressing that they might put him at L-1, and decided that it was unnecessary to go into much more detail because I didn't want my vote on him anymore, so I did a short summary.

Obviously it is necessary to go into a bit more detail because both me and Poiven have directly expressed interest in knowing more. You said you were happy to answer questions (you didn't seem to happy about telling Poiven more) so tell me more about it. What was justification? You said it was a gut vote and said that there was more detail in the same post which strikes me as another contradiction so prove me wrong.

Here you state that vote hopping was part of the reason you voted for him yet you later state:

Vote-hopping in itself is not a scum tell, and is something I don't find scummy. It's actually something I find town are more likely to do than scum

This is a contradiction. Why did you put it in your reasoning as to why you voted Ant?

There is no contradiction, you're either misinterpreting what I was saying or intentionally misrepresenting me here. I've clearly explained this a couple times already.

Where? Enlighten me please about the whereabouts of this explanation. I can't find it in your ISO.

[mrguy888]

I will try to clear things up for you.

MRGUY888

ISO#5 is his first real contribution after his busy weekend. His responses to Dr Doom in ISO#6 give slight town vibes, but ISO#7 strikes me as odd.

While a couple people seemed suspicious to me at first, the first person who I actually think looks scummy is Muffin. Looking back at his posts I see some major issues I would like him to address.

and confirming intent to pull an archon in this game.

Oh, yeah? Well, I'll call you an idiot and tell you to lynch me.

Sheeping the IC. Also stealing cake is generally a scum-motivated action.

His first three posts have laid the groundwork for him to go about acting scummy, making no sense and not thinking for himself. While this on its own at the start could be seen as joking around he has really lived up to his first claims.

Muffin then votes for Ant with no reason given. He claims he needed to get sleep first but his reasons for voting Ant were barely longer than his explanation as to why he didn't give an explanation right away. In his next post he votes for someone else with his only reasoning being he is doing whatever Korlash does. He gave no reasoning in his last 3 posts to date which were him giving really weak defenses about voting Ant and his reason given later.

If he isn't scum he is at best playing rather anti-town. He doesn't think for himself and when he acts on his own he gives no explanation. He has not posted any content in the game, and based on his posts so far he doesn't seem to intend on doing it anytime in the future.
UNVOTE: Dr Doom
VOTE: zMuffinMan

The reasoning itself doesn't look overly impressive. The last 2 posts zMuffinMan had made before that post were discussion based, and this makes mrguy's point completely false in my mind. He's starting to seem overzealous with three votes in seven posts.

I don't understand how ISO's 11 and 12 are discussion based. Could you explain that please? I admit my first vote on Ant was poor. I just wanted to get into the game and didn't really know what to do yet. My vote on Dr Doom was because I found him a bit suspicious during my second read through. He refuted my suspicions with calm, logical, and generally good posts. When I looked through the posts again and even more thoroughly with thinking from a scums perspective someone stood out.

And to be clear, this isn't a case against Muffin but more of a list of action I want him to explain written in a way that I hope gets more people interested in pressing for explanations because the more people press, the more likely he is to explain himself.

Then why did you state him as scummy when you initially voted for him?
With Dr Doom I found some of what he did town-like and some seemed confusing to me. I didn't really understand his motivations. I labeled that as "suspicious". When I said Muffin looked scummy I meant I could see potential reasons why scum would act the way he did instead. I did not mean I was convinced he was scum. I will try to be clearer in the future.

[mrguy888]

EBWOP:

Then why did you state him as scummy when you initially voted for him?

Should be in the quote box as pictured above.

[mrguy888]

Sorry I kind of got sucked into a wall war didn't I? Ill try to trim as much fat as I can for everyones sakes. =p

[mrguy888]

You're going to have to explain why you think my playstyle doesn't help town.

Read the rest of the paragraph after the question. I can't explain it better than that.

I assume you're referring to my reasoning on Ankamius here. Elaborate.

I meant the vote on Ant but you quoted a good explanation to the contradiction I saw.

What's interesting to note is that you've changed your view completely from "I want explanations" (when pressed by Poiven for making a weak case) to "Nothing you've done makes sense from a town perspective." and claiming that you think I'm scum on multiple occasions.

You seemed to blow off everyone else's questions to me, so I felt I needed to press hard and it payed off with your last post where you finally explained yourself to an extent I found satisfactory. I have no further questions for you at this time.

[mrguy888]

Guy I'm suspicious of because of Quinn's interaction with and read on him. e.g. Shortly after Quinn pointed out that guy is tunneling on doom, guy switches gears and starts tunneling me, claiming I'm scummy but not really, but yes really (indecisive). Apparently I address his major concerns with one of my recent posts, but obviously not enough for him to put his vote elsewhere or attempt to find scum elsewhere. This doesn't sit well with me.

I feel I am being misrepresented here. I do not see how I was tunneling at all. When my concerns about Dr Doom proved to be unfounded I moved on. That is not tunneling. I thought you were acting scummy and I still stand by that. You addressed my major concern that you were not explaining your actions if you didn't understand that from my posts. I am keeping my vote on you for now because until I pressed you you were not willing to share your reasonings which is very suspicious.

Your post makes me want to look closer at Quinn though.

[mrguy888]

Still, surely if you consider my play anti-town and scummy (because I'm not sharing every thought), you must also realise how hypocritical it is to say that, when you've made virtually no mention of anyone in this game but myself and gir, and you made no mention of why you stopped tunneling gir, either. Do you not have any other thoughts on the game?

I don't really have much other thoughts. Listing all the people who I don't really think lean one way or the other seems useless at this point in my opinion. I was only focusing on things I didn't like, which after Dr Doom was just you. I shared all my thoughts when it came to people I thought did some strange things. I will give my less relevant thoughts though if you wish:

Like you, I think the cases on Ant are rather weak and it surprises me that he has 3 votes even though that isn't very close to lynching. It does bother me a little how Ant has not really posted much content for the amount of posts he made. I also don't like how he kind of went very quiet after a few people starting voting for him, but there is not enough info to know if there is some kind of correlation.

Quinn seems to not added much content other than his person by person analysis and self defense since the first day of this game. He still feels the need to tell everyone else to post though.

Embit really needs to start posting too. He seems to be logging in but not posting.

Everyone else I don't have much of an opinion on.

[mrguy888]

There is a lot of stuff I want addressed from you. The flailing with the vote-hopping issue, the vote before justification, and the 'reaches' with anka's misrep, guy's change of opinion, and Quin's inside knowledge.

Does the opinion of Dr Doom not matter to you? I don't see any reason to read into this at this time, because it most likely means nothing, but it might prove to be a Freudian slip (perhaps because he is your scumbuddy you don't care what his opinion is) in the light of future information. <--Just a little note for the future. Neglecting Embit though is completely understandable.

[mrguy888]

EBWOP: The correct quote is:

I would like to hear your take on the z/guy/quin thing, anka, and poi as soon as possible if you please.

[mrguy888]

Oh wow I completely misread that there never mind my little note for the future. =p

[mrguy888]

Granted, his most recent post hasn't filled me with confidence

Perhaps it would ease your mind if I explained how I (mis-)read it at the time. I read "The town seems split on you. half seem to think you're scum, half seem to think your town. There is literally no one here not wanting to hear your opinion on current events." as you asking Ant to give his thoughts on recent events, and "I would like to hear your take on the z/guy/quin thing, anka, and poi as soon as possible if you please. " As you asking anka and poi on their thoughts on the "z/guy/quin thing." I know that isn't what you said or meant, but if you did say that, I hope you can understand how I thought it may have been interesting that you didn't want Dr Doom opinion.

and I don't like that he came out and ended with a 'I have nothing further to ask' type deal.

As for this I see what you mean. I just thought that saying any more would result in more walls of pretty much the same as the previous walls. I wanted to wait on other people's opinions on my interaction with z before posting more. I am still in the process of digesting everything that has gone on so far in page ten and will post my thoughts tomorrow.

[mrguy888]

holy mother of...

i have work tomorrow (my second day!!) and have to sleep soon, so i'm not sure i can commit the time and energy right now to go through these giant walls of text. x_x

i'll be back tomorrow evening with a p(erson)bpa and comments. see everyone tomorrow!

And yet we are still waiting... You really need to speak up. Another person who needs to speak up is Ant. I saw his name in the list of people browsing this forum since Korlash's question to him and he didn't post.

Something that I think is a bit scummy that I noticed is Quinn's vote for Muffin. If you look at the reasons that he was now confident in voting for Muffin the first reason stands out to me as something that has been said multiple times and Quinn even still said he was willing to look past it. Why is it suddenly then that it makes you confident in your vote for Muffin, Quinn? His other reason he became confident in voting for Muffin was because he was accused of not trying to post good content. I don't quite understand how that is scummy. I would like you to post the accumulated reasons you are voting for zMuffinMan because as it stands right now, it looks to me as if you started voting for him right after a second person did.

I still think that Muffin's behavior is more scummy so I will keep my vote on him but I will

FOS: Quinnster

because right now his vote for Muffin doesn't look good to me.

[mrguy888]

1. I dont think zmuffin is scum - he was voting me, then Poiven and Korlash placed me high on their scum lists and korlash said "lets tyr to bandwagon Doc Doom", and then immediately after, zmuffin changes his vote. If he were scum, why not keep on the cool wagon that could have been formed?

UNVOTE, VOTE: mrguy888[/c]

He never voted for you there Doc. I don't understand what you are talking about here. I don't even see a post where he mentioned any suspicions of you even. Can you please give me quotes to back this point up?

[mrguy888]

I will be away with no internet this entire weekend so since I will have a lot of reading to do anyway I will post my thoughts on everyone when I get back.

[mrguy888]

Hypocrisy, not actively scum hunting, generally scummy vibes from his play and the motivations behind his attacks. Also OMGUS. And I feel like it.

Really? I want to know how attacking people I think are scummy and asking questions about peoples actions are not scum hunting. By the 12th page you really need more reasoning on your vote then vibes. Before you cry "it's my playstyle" you must realize that not providing substantial reasons for your votes makes it seem that you have none and just want other people to post reasons for voting me and dittoing them. I am pretty sure you need quotes to call someone on hypocrisy.

Anyway, I am back and am going to re-read stuff and post my thoughts on people as promised.

[mrguy888]

I feel like circling back around to Ant/Anka today. They look like cool lynches. Gir lynch is bad. Guy lynch is also bad now that I think about it.

Sorry guys stuff came up and I am still busy with it so it might be two or three more days until I have time to do a full readthrough and full assessment of everyone. I would just like to post my agreement to the dislike of lynching the Doctor(in name not necessarily role). I don't like how fast that came up and some of the reasoning there. I will look into that further in a few days when I have time.