Newbie 1079: Feed the Lynch Mob (Game Over)

[Voidedmafia]

Don't ask me where Thil went, I have no clue myself -_-.

Anyways, hiya Grey! Should go better with us here, eh?

Nacho, you've got two games that need your attention, including this one. You need ta step up!

I've watched this thread since it was on page 5, but I'll have to read again to make sure what I've thought as a neutral observer fits with what I'll think of as an actual participant.

Given that Nacho seems to be the lynch of the day, I won't unvote just yet. However, how he responds to all the questions from all of you who have asked will also factor into that.

[Voidedmafia]

...and then there's the problem that I can't remember what I thought while I was watching -_-

Well, I mean, I can't go into a whole lot of detail about it, as that will come with a proper re-read, but just going off of what I remember, I thought Grey was town, Glass is townish, and everyone else is null until I can go over it again.

It's not a whole lot for a first content-full post, I know, but like I said, better reads will come once I can look this over again. Probably during N2, if Nacho gets lynched before the IRL week's up.

[Voidedmafia]

I've watched this thread since it was on page 5, but I'll have to read again to make sure what I've thought as a neutral observer fits with what I'll think of as an actual participant.

...and then there's the problem that I can't remember what I thought while I was watching -_-

Well, I mean, I can't go into a whole lot of detail about it, as that will come with a proper re-read, but just going off of what I remember, I thought Grey was town, Glass is townish, and everyone else is null until I can go over it again.

It's not a whole lot for a first content-full post, I know, but like I said, better reads will come once I can look this over again. Probably during N2, if Nacho gets lynched before the IRL week's up.

I'm not even sure what to make of this...

Hero asked me to give my neutral reads of people and why, and I forgot. Is that so wrong?

Had my computer taken away from me yesterday, so I didn't have much time to post except for here and there. I had meant to do my re-read yesterday, but it's gonna get shuffled to today after school.

[Voidedmafia]

@Voided:
My problem with it is that you said that you were going to read the game to see if what you thought as a neutral observer matched up with what you thought as an actual participant. Then, when you were asked what you thought as a neutral observer, you didn't remember.

I was hoping that, having watched the game since page 5, I would've been able to collect my thoughts enough to give you an initial read of everyone, and then I realized that I could not recall what I HAD thought as I read through it (though, the fact I was watching 2-4 other games and playing 2 others didn't help there), only what little bits I did remember (my two townreads I gave).

I'm not quite sure what I make of the claim right now (what I had hoped would've been ample time to sit down, re-read, and give you my thoughts has dwindled down to an amount less than desireable. I will still give the re-read and thoughts as promised (most likely as a string of posts going over what I think of posts in each page, rather than ISO-ing each of you), though. An

unvote

is still in order, however.

[Voidedmafia]

Page 1, nothing overly suspicious, though that could just be because I general disregard things said in RVS because they usually are worthless in regards to getting info.

Page 2:
Post #48 is from KoH, I think it was one of the posts that incurred some suspicion on him, mainly with the "At least we got the ball rolling line. For me, I take it as a simple comment as to the fact that you all (speaking from the point that I hadn't replaced in yet) were coming out of RVS. Nothing else of note here, but I'll add that I live in Central time (GMT -6?).

Page 3 incoming.

[Voidedmafia]

Page 3:
IT'S SO FLUFFY UP THERE!

Post #64 by Snipe is weak, of course, but then, you're still just coing out of RVS into more serious discussion. And I think I can consider the whole "he confirmed last, he's scum!" as a weak scumtell, if it's a tell at all.

Post #65 by Tars is the second post to seriously suspect someone, and again has rather weak reasoning cuz of RVS. Also the first serious vote of the game, as well.

Post #66 by Traveller uses the guise of "you're deflecting off of yourself onto me" for vote justification, but I'm not sure that's what KoH was doing at all. Certainly isn't a town move, though.

Post #68[/ur] by Panda is the first serious case made on anyone with anything worth something. I don't agree with the reply to the 2nd quote, and think that it's still possible to miss a vote if you're not actually looking at that, but the 3rd quote also highlights how KoH has, up to this post, only expressed suspicion onto Traveller, but has never actually explained WHY he's suspicious. That would've earned my vote on him if I were Thil at this point. This also means I disagree with Bri's vote of Panda on the next post.

Post #73 by Panda has some weak reasoning by the whole "I figured you'd unvote" part because they don't NEED to unvote to consider and such. He also goes out on a limb to try and place a BriHarold scumpair, which is never good to do at that point in the game.

Bristep counters Panda with Post #74, at least in regards to the part about unvoting. I suppose if Panda really thought that KoH was scum, it wasn't a bad thing to put him a L-1, but it never hurts to be careful.

Bri further explains why he voted Panda, saying that Panda put soeone at L-1 with a weak case. I don't think it was THAT weak a case, but I could see where Bri is coing from. THe last paragraph is kinda on the fence for me because I don't feel that Panda misrep, but I'm not quite sure on whether or not #73 is forced justification or not.


So, to conclude Page 3: King of Harold would've been voted and been my top suspect, while Panda and Bri would've been given some attention.

[Voidedmafia]

Page 4:
Grey, it probably sounds wrong because it can sound like he's trying to get people off his scumbuddy with a weak case. But, like I said, it's stupid to formulate those kinds of ideas this early. He could have been hoping for an early and easy lynch, which seems more plausible, but I still kinda doubt that.

Panda then says that he thought that whoever hammered would be most suspicious if KoH wasn't scum (though I would've been suspicious of such a hammer regardless of the flip), then admits that he had weak reasoning. However, he did have one good jewel among that, as I pointed out.

In Post #80 from KoH, He is referring to Traveller. Anyways, KoH thought that Traveller was off-putting with the cracks and jokes in the beginning, which first aroused his suspicion, and the FoS was from the OMGUS. He later says that it could've been scummy for him to go after Nacho just out of RVS, but he just skimmed. Now this does sound like weak justification. I did say that he could've honestly just skipped it over, but if he was paying attention to votes, why didn't he pay attention to the vote on him? Then he notes that Traveller is still his suspect, though his reasonings are even weaker than the first ones on page 2.

Post #82 by Nacho is a case against Snipe, and Snipe's first real vote against him. Nacho's reasoning for this is the FoS post which he says has no excuse for, but he also mentions Thil doing something like that with reasoning, or at least a good explanation. While I understand that doing that without good follow-up is not good practice, I still can't see the big deal here, I guess.

Snipe explains the post, saying he didn't have enough reasoning. Tars and Panda challenge that, and Snipe reiterates what he said in 83 here. He also adds that his RVS served no purpose, which is why he unvoted.

Bristep comes along with a post (#88) trying to get people to post. KoH instantly jumps up by voting his top suspicion, Traveller, STILL with nothing going for it--I'd still have my vote on him at this point. Thil says that he doesn't feel like he has enough to vote, and then Tars tells Thil that the point here was to get people to communicate under the threat that they'd be lynched, which I do approve of in circumstances such a those. Thil later explained why he was so hesitant because of a game he played earlier, but still votes for Traveller.

Post #93 from Traveller announces that he'll drop the pretense, though the pretense is still there in the post. He also notes that he didn't mean to OMGUS KoH, but also says that KoH is rather aggressive, which I can see.

Panda then votes Nacho because he's also been aggressive. I suppose because Nacho's been more aggressive through interrogation?

[Voidedmafia]

Bah, posted too early. Page 4 part 2:

Post #95 from Snipe is a little late, since his suspicions came AFTER KoH voted, though I'm not quite sure if there was some motive behind it or not.

GreyICE's anti-prod post (and last good post of this page) contains all his reads so far. I can see where he's coming from with Panda in regards to his actions (Panda is his top suspect at this point), but I still feel that KoH's actions so far would make him scummier in my eyes. He also says Nacho is town, though I'm not sure I feel it as much as he does.

P4 synopsis: Still voting KoH, but Panda does look scummy if you take ICE's read of him. Pretty much everyone else is null, either having not done enough to warrant a read change, or have done both scummy and town things, and therefore balanced it out.

...well, I dallied too long in real life, so the entire re-read will continue tomorrow, and probably into Saturday, since I have some things I need to do tomorrow as well. Terribly sorry. Feel free to comment as you read this, though.

[Voidedmafia]

Not cop, either.

Traveller, did you get any leads?

[Voidedmafia]

I stopped thinking thil13 was lurking scum and considered them as possible bored town when they replaced out. I was nervous about lynching Nacho just after they claimed Cop with a verdict I knew to be correct (though I suppose mafia would always know which players are town aligned in this set-up). Then Nacho got lynched and was scum. Will look and see who would make a good buddy for them in a bit.

So, how did you know it was correct again? I do need to finish up my re-read that got cut short cuz of the Nacho lynch, but explain that for me, please?

[Voidedmafia]

Grey: Anything in particular you wish me to chip in on?

I wasn't exactly feeling up to it yesterday, what with celebrating my birthday and all. But I'm better able to focus today.

Happy birthday! (Equinox)

[Voidedmafia]

Grey: Anything in particular you wish me to chip in on?

I wasn't exactly feeling up to it yesterday, what with celebrating my birthday and all. But I'm better able to focus today.

Nacho's lynch, scum suspects, who looks good and bad from yesterday's wagon.

#219: First Nacho vote from D2 from Traveller, based on reasonings given from D1. I'm only looking at D2 reasons right now, and will look over his D1 reasons later, so this is null at the moment.

#248: Second Nacho vote from D2 from Hero. Seems that the main reason he voted from this post is because Nacho didn't question those who voted after him on Snipe. More of his reasonings come after this post, mainly with the Nacho/Hero back and forth

Also, I would like to note that between D2's start and Hero's vote, Tars pretty much focused all on Thil, including a vote to pressure him. Nacho did inform Tars about pressure voting, and while Nacho DID turn out to be scum, he's also the IC and may have said that from an IC vantage point, though we can't really confirm that. I'll also note that Tar's request for people to vote Snipe D1 off of Nacho could be seen as Nacho's buddy trying to take votes off of Nacho himself. She says she wasn't intentionally mislynching, and I can see that she would want to get a lynch that day, but still.

#312: Third vote on Nacho by you, Icey-boy. Presumably because of Hero's case and from something that Tars said that I'm not entirely sure about. That, or you just quoted Tars for some reason that I don't know.

So far into D2, with three votes on Nacho:
Tars looks scummy.
Hero and Nacho look null (unlike what was pulled on KoH and such in D1, I don't consider Hero's and Nacho's back and forth to have given anything big yet. THere is that misrep about Hero's Snipe WIFOM, but I'm not quite sure how big that is, so both of them are null)
You're town bordering on null for not giving clear reasoning behind your Nacho vote. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just that it's not easy to see why you voted.
Traveller is town
Thil is null and newbtown, srsly.
Panda's town/null.

#317: Your unvote, Grey. Understandable that you'd be worried about town vs. town argumentation, since I would agree that I don't see anything yet that clearly pointed to either of them being scum.

#333: Thil's vote, which has absolutely nothing behind it. really, absolutely nothing. If I replaced in at this point (not for Thil) and saw that after reading his previous posts, I would've voted him right there.

#348: From Panda, and well...you said it best right after, Grey:

What the FUCK was that vote?

If I had been able to reach this point in my original re-read, this WOULD have gotten a true vote from me, not just me saying I would've voted him but couldn't cuz it was from way before I was in the game like with KoH.

But...then you Revote right back in #351, mainly because you're angry about the lack of participation from Nacho. And seriously, at this point, he's been away for pretty much no explained reasons. I still wouldn't furiously vote him for lurking as a general rule, but I can see where you're coming from.

Then, at this point, hi, I'm VM, hello all!

#385: Nacho's claim and innocent on Tars. I wouldn't have believed the claim anyways, and said as much, and with Nacho flipping scum and there apparantly being no cop, I'm even less likely to believe it.

#403: Hero revotes, dissatisfied apparantly with how easily we accepted the claim (not that we didn't believe it, of course, but you still have to treat it with caution). He also outlines the pluses of Nacho's claims if he's scum (which Nacho turned out to be).

#406: Glass votes, very much agreeing with Hero, and then Panda hammers (Also, keep in mind that everything post-Nacho's claim happened while I wasn't on. Just wanting to point that out).

So, overall:
Hero obviously came out the better man, pushing Nachoscum to his lynch. I suppose him being the NK is a revenge thing, or something.
Skimmed over Glass's posts, but what she did as Traveller's fill-in looked town, and supports your own townread on Traveller, Grey.
Panda came out looking scummier than he went in, with the out-of-nowhere vote. He's getting some towncred back with a good push on Tars D3, but that killed his town/null-read.
You're frustrated town. Heavily frustrated, by the look of things. Also very wary of town/town, but I'd bet that was shaken from Nacho flipping scum (after all, you held Nacho to be town pretty much all of D2 until his activity waned). Does this mean you COULD be scum? Certainly, but I'm not sure that's true.
And then, Tars. Both Panda and Traveller bring up good points against her, and while I could see Thil being bored town, I'm not so sure about how replacing is pro-town. Most of what she did D2 just does not look town at all.

Vote: Tarsonis

Honestly I don't get Thil = town. Town replacing out because they don't like the pressure, or scum replacing out because they don't like the pressure? I dunno. The slot is a total and utter mess, and not having much to contribute today isn't helping.

Is that last line directed at me or Thil?

In regards to the slot itself, I wholly understand how you feel. Thil was anti-town bordering on scum throughout his play. But I hope I've been making it better.

Also this is a lot of PoE here. Tarsonis seems like an unlikely nacho partner.

Despite his anti-town play, Thil doesn't, either. Like I said, I agree on the fact that Thil was heavily anti-town, but it's not anti-town that translate to scumminess like with Tars

So yeah, I'd kind of like some reads on the rest of the players.

Given above.

[Voidedmafia]

You think it's me?

[Voidedmafia]

It's a good question. Usually when "very good, townie" players are alive in LyLo it's worth taking a good long look at how town they were.

Re-readin' time -_-

My best guess is either:

OK, the newbie is taking the hammer and calling for a quicklynch. If TO is scum, as I suspect she is, we're done. If not, we used our last free lynch and

I have a good idea who the scum is.

Vote: tarsonisoscelot

Which voided thought meant him,

Well, I was going off the assumption that you both would've harped on me from the L-1 vote (which is what it looked like Traveller was going to do near the end before Panda hammered). Though, I'm not sure if he's calling me a new or calling Panda a newb.

and the idea that someone wants to use the argument 'you're too good to be alive' against me (which is... kinda hard to respond to tbh. Sorry I didn't make the scum NK me?).

Sounds like WIFOM to me.

Or the argument "you're too good to be alive." Possibly my reads have been horribly off.

Well, it seems the only main scumread you've had is on me/Thil, is it not? You contested me when I called Panda scummy for certain actions around the Nacho lynch.

Though, I WOULD like to point out how the part about "the person not hammering is confirmed town" is WIFOM because scum can just not hammer right away. 'Course, that goes against their wincon that would be completed if they did lynch right away. You may not really see it, and it IS really counterproductive unless you've got some zany plan to pull out, but I figured it's a small tidbit worth pointing out.

my question is, WHY DID YOU NOT DIE, ICE?

WIFOM ahoy. Not from you, but the NK action.

you are indeed the closest thing to an IC among us and very experienced, so scum should have killed you. But seeing you alive and TRAVELLER (least likely person I thought would be NKed) dead is really confusing right now.

Now, if that would be confusing, then a.) The scum is VERY confident about getting Grey voted or to vote with him, or b.) Grey wasn't killed because HE is the last scum.

As for Thil/Void, Thil WAS indeed scummy as you mentioned last day. However, my point stands with him that him saying replacement and voting Nacho knowingly as his mafia partner would be too much of a gamethrowing/jerk move even for a bored, frustrated player. I had a town read on Thil since then, and Void has continued to give me a town read.

I can see where some of that scumread came from, what with completely ignoring the fact that Hero/Nacho (or someone else, can't remember who exactly he was referring to) had a case and saying they didn't. However, I think that most of his play has just been anti-town, and as a whole does NOT translate to scummy.

WHERE ARE THE AWESOME FLAVORS, EQUINOX?! DON'T SHUNT US AND NOT GIVE US FLAVOR WORTHY OF NEWB 1060!!

O_O (Equinox)

[Voidedmafia]

Voidedmafia gives off a scum vibe because he did not vote back after Nacho claimed cop. Did you really think he was cop?

May I remind you that, at the time, I was:

a.) Giving a page-by-page reread of the game, and therefore wasn't excactly looking at the recent events, and
b.) As I had pointed out, I was ASLEEP and AT SCHOOL when everyone piled their votes back on Nacho. I mean, I said so right at the end of where I noted your hammervote:

(Also, keep in mind that everything post-Nacho's claim happened while I wasn't on. Just wanting to point that out).

I mean, sure, you could give me scumpoints for that, but why give me points against for something I could not have possibly foreseen, and was completely unable to participate in?

[Voidedmafia]

Well could you both answer this question: if you were scum, why would you kill Traveller?

Hmm.

As you know, both Grey and I had pretty solid townreads on Traveller, so it would make sense to get rid of the last "true" townie ("true" in the sense that he is essentially the last townie that we knew to be town without a flip; all three of us here aren't in that boat). It muddies the water because then there's no clear-cut choice for the lynch--or at the very least, there's one person that the other two KNOW won't be lynched in LyLo.

[Voidedmafia]

While I agree with the fact that the vote-flopping was bad, but Panda's change to Nacho with just as little reasoning would have to be just as bad.

[Voidedmafia]

While I agree with the fact that the vote-flopping was bad, but Panda's change to Nacho with just as little reasoning would have to be just as bad.

I've been doing this whether my vote was one a scum or not and I agreed with Hero's analysis on Nacho.

Well, you sure didn't say as much when you actually voted for Nacho.

Right now, I've been rereading both of your posts and have been trying to find reasons to believe GreyIce is scum and Thil/Voided is not, but I really can't.

I would agree with you about how Thil wouldn't be town, but I can't really agree with him being scum either.

We both can definitely agree he was practically useless to the town, though.

There was a point where Grey, early on, really supported Nacho, because he is IC and giving him a "town-read" to start scum hunting. But, his opinion changed after hearing from Hero, and the timing of his change did not seem like bussing to me.

And why does the timing not make it seem like bussing?

As for Thil, I can't find any posts that give him any town cred. He lurks til he's prodded about 3 times, then posts meaningless filler to just hide back into lurking mode again.

Can't say I disagree with that. I would like to find SOMETHING that could put him in a bad light, but I really just can't.

As for you, Voided, I understand that you were away IRL during our Nacho vote, but part of me wants to think that your attempt at reads during our wagon on Nacho was just an attempt to try and start a different wagon on someone more scummy.

And so what if I was? I very well could have stumbled upon the other scum had I had the time to go over it entirely. Or I could've wound up believing Nacho was the scum after all.

And, the fact that Grey's not dead has been really irking me, but I think Voided you decided to kill Traveller instead because he may have had a strong FOS on you.

I also had a strong town read on Traveller as well. However, this can equally go onto ICE as well, who also had a very strong townread on Traveller, and it's equally as possible that Traveller would've had a FoS on you or Grey, but we'll never know since he's dead.

I want to ask, why did you think he thought it was you? It could have been any of us.

I was going off the the line "The newbie is taking the hammer and calling for a quicklynch", which I was assuming was for me. Based on what had happened, it seemed like, were I in Traveller's shoes, the dots were connecting towards me.

Oh yah, and Thil kept saying "Why me" every time someone pointed at him...and we know what that means: "WHY ME FRY ME"

Huh?

I'm thinking of voting for you really soon, but I'm willing to hear your case to change my mind

Personally, if you're waiting for a big, extravagant case on how Thil isn't as scummy as you're making him out to be, and that I'm the townie you don't want lynched, well, you'll have to wait for the former. For the latter, however, I could make a few points on that.

First off, I can't help but wonder why you would be wanting to think I would be going after another wagon when I hadn't even completed my re-read. Sure, from the looks of it I would've been going after KoH/Herod, but I didn't get to finish the re-read prior to Nacho's lynch, and D3 sorta ended before I could get anything done (Real life also got involved there (see: my birthday), too) in regards to that line of action. That, and I spent most of my time that day replying to GreyICE. Your concern is probably valid, but just too unfounded to be worth anything in my eyes.

Secondly, I've gone over Traveller's ISO. Through the 3 general reads he's given (by general, I mean of everyone currently alive at the time), Thil has only shown up as being potential scum once, in the 2nd of the reads. But even then, it was nothing definite, just the "leaning scum" read that most poeple give lurkers however, GreyICE has shown up twice as potential scum, in the 1st and 3rd reads. Though the 1st admittedly didn't have a lot behind it, the 3rd certainly had a slip behind it (in Traveller's eyes), which would lead me to think Traveller could have also had a FoS lined up for Grey as well. You're not in this boat, however, since he's listed you as probable/definite town in all three.

...I feel like I had more points to get across, but I've lost them. No doubt they'll come to me when I can't really put them down for you, but take these two as you will.

[Voidedmafia]

@Voided: you said a lot of what Tarsonis did wasn't very town at all yesterday when you voted. What specifically did you see that wasn't very town?

...I've hit a brain fart trying to think of how I can put this. You may interpret this as "A HA! VM doesn't have anything against her for her vote!" But I still feel like my vote analysis and the things that both Traveller (about her never voting for Nacho AT ALL) and Panda (don't remember what he said about her) answered this.

Why did you think that Traveller suspected you?

Already answered above.

[Voidedmafia]

Mainly because I'm not sure of what to say.

Let it be done, then.

[Voidedmafia]

I was thinking about crossvoting with you, Grey, but I just didn't have the good foundation I would've needed to actually make Panda choose. I mean, I would've voted for me, and I replaced thil!

That being said, great job.

[Voidedmafia]

Equi: No, I think it's fine. A Pm-prod and in-game-prod are more likely to be noticed together, methinks.

That being said...where's mah flavah? You do it so well, yknow.

[Voidedmafia]

Not so much guess as "I might as well vote him"

Though, really, if Traveller was here and not Panda, you would've definitely gotten my vote once the day began.

But, could you explain why voting your strongest town read would be best? Wouldn't that just make the scum hammer (unless you're scum)?

[Voidedmafia]

Hero, you think I could've done better if I hadn't replace in for Thil?

[Voidedmafia]

I guess so...

[Voidedmafia]

Every time, all the time.