Newbie 1116 -- Game Over

VisceraEyes · Post Post #42 (isolation #0) » Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:10 am

/confirmation station

VisceraEyes · Post Post #43 (isolation #1) » Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:24 am

How's everybody doing? I dislike RVS because it doesn't really pressure anyone...everyone expects it and knows the votes don't really mean anything, so they're kinda useless all and all.

That being said, I'm not against someone changing their mind either. I've found that the act of vote-switching itself isn't really so scummy, more the timing of switching that becomes important to watch.

I look forward to scum-hunting with you all! ^^

VisceraEyes · Post Post #44 (isolation #2) » Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:48 am

Grimmjow wrote:Ok, so bigAl votes cymru, stating it's not random, but doesn't give any reasons. He also implies that he's town, but not to be sucked in, which the goal of all that is 1) to make people think he's town and 2) to make people think he's even more town by saying "But don't believe it just because I tell you I'm town," which frankly I think is bullshit.

Can anyone else confirm that the servers were down yesterday? They worked fine for me.

@Al, why is your vote on cymru not random?

I'm going to keep my vote on Yonzy for now, but
FoS: bigAl

...so we've got WIFOM from this guy...

cymru96 wrote:VOTE: bigAL because he's said that he's not necisserily town and then voted for me without saying his reason.

BTW my time zone is GMT so my posts will probably be early morning- early afternoon for most of you

...and OMGUS from this one.

Try to think outside the box here guys. Don't look at the superficial, try to go deep down and look at the reasoning behind things. For my part, bigAl seems to be very logical and gives good advice (whether he's town or scum). This isn't going to make me look any less closely at his posts (probably the opposite)...but I'm certainly not going to throw a

FoS

on him because the words he says are helping town.

I'm not really getting any scummy reads off anyone in town just yet, but it looks to have just started. Kisses!

VisceraEyes · Post Post #45 (isolation #3) » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:00 pm

@Grim
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... %27t_Panic
This is a link to the mafiascum Wiki's "Don't Panic" talk page where you can sign the page and let the powers-that-be know when you're having issues with the site. You'll note that I was also having issues with the page on the date in question. I don't doubt that you were viewing the page just fine, as the problem appears to have been intermittent and only affect some people.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #48 (isolation #4) » Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:54 pm

@Miss JJ

Spoiler: Miss JJ's Vote

Just out of curiosity, is this just an extension of your RVS vote before the game started, or was his FoS of Al actually enough to warrant your vote?

VisceraEyes · Post Post #54 (isolation #5) » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:48 pm

Nobody Special wrote:

Just as a note: I don't mind the use of spoiler tags, but don't put a Vote inside of them, or anything directed at me; I don't
always
read under them immediately.

For clarification sake, can I quote peoples' official votes inside of a spoiler, as long as when I vote officially, I don't do it inside spoiler tags?

VisceraEyes · Post Post #55 (isolation #6) » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:54 pm

@Grimmjow

That's why I dislike RVS so much...the reasons are absolutely irrelevant at that stage because we haven't seen enough posts from anyone; making all reasons "bullshit". Do you have some other reason to be defending Workdawg so harshly I wonder?

VisceraEyes · Post Post #66 (isolation #7) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:55 am

VOTE: Zihark for having one post so far. I'm a late-addition and have more posts than a few people and I needz moar dataz. ^^

VisceraEyes · Post Post #67 (isolation #8) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:05 am

cymru96 wrote:Also, saying that it's a quick vote works two ways. If your quick, it's suspicious. If you leave it cause it's not enough evidence, looks suspicious. People gat lynched for stayin quiet. It's a two sided coin.

Saying that, I don't think he's scum but I'm not gonna unvote cause I havent seen anyone who looks scummy and leaving my vote blank after previously voting looks suspicious.

You seem pretty concerned about not "appearing" scummy.

Should I be concerned that there's a reason for that??

I don't think unvoting when you no longer find someone suspicious scummy...it means you're not afraid to admit you made a mistake. As I claimed earlier, I don't find switching votes to be suspicious...only the timing. For example, if you left your vote on bigAl and then we all decided to put pressure on an inactive, putting 3 votes on him, THEN you unvote bigAl and vote for the inactive, I would find MUCH more scummy than if you did it now after admitting you don't find him suspicious.

@light-posters
We're reaching a point in the day where people are going to start getting suspicious of everyone else and one of the most suspicious things in my mind is active-lurking. I've seen a couple of people already looking at the thread but not posting who are in the game - I'd hate to lose a townie or two to lynches when the only crime they're guilty of is not posting enough. Thank you, that is all.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #68 (isolation #9) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:15 am

@Grimmjow

Why I said you were defending Workdawg, I guess I should've said you were PRESSURING Yonzy. You voted for Yonzy based on his reasoning for voting for Workdawg...the vote that so infuriated you wasn't even cast against you. I could understand being so angry about a vote against you, but his RVS vote (yes, he had a nonsense reason like everyone else...see red wine and because I know you, just as examples) was cast against Workdawg, someone you have no reason to trust and should have no qualms with putting pressure on.

I can see that you feel like your reason for voting him is valid, so I won't try and discredit that further...but understand that the action of you voting for Yonzy looks to the outsider as a defense of Workdawg. As long as you can see that, we're cool.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #74 (isolation #10) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:03 am

@Zihark

Really? Honestly? Like, for real-real, NOT for play-play? You're telling me that you entirely avoid posting the whole game, and your VERY FIRST POST after your confirmation post is that you want to vote for me based SOLELY AND COMPLETELY on the fact that I voted for you?

I hope no one is super-concerned when I don't come up with a defense of this vote.

@Miss JJ
In a text-based format, emotions and context are judged from content rather than observation as with face-to-face communication. He referred to Yonzy's reasoning as "bullshit" three? times...which I read as he was so opposed to that line of reasoning that he needed to show it...rather than saying "I find your logic to be flawed my friend" or "I don't agree with you at all" or several other less-aggressive ways, he referred to it as "bullshit reasoning".

I can only judge by what I see. If I'm mistaken, I'm sure you'll let me know.

Also, very astute...yours is one of the names I've seen. You're not the only one, but thank you for answering to that. You get some town-points for sure from me.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #77 (isolation #11) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:18 am

@tucah
I don't think you need to apologize for double-posting here. In other forums where it's important for everyone to get their say in, double-posting is indeed taboo. Here however, when we're forced to have several lines of thought and respond to (sometimes) several people, I find it easier to organize MYSELF in separate posts on occasion. Verily, almost every single time I've posted it's had a followup post by yours truly.

Also, it's okay to put other peoples' votes in quotes. I clarified that the mod simply requests that when you're making YOUR official vote, you do so outside of quotes and spoiler tages.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #80 (isolation #12) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:36 am

@Grimmjow
No, I never said I know you. I don't know any of you. That's why it appeared to me that you were angry about Yonzy's reasoning...if I'd known that your standard is to get uppity right out of the gates, I'd probably have just accepted that as your standard of play. I'm interested to know which of my statements you're misreading, I'd never claim to know any of you guys.

@Everybody
I think we've got enough to get some scumhunting going. We have a couple of inactive players, but that's to be expected...they'll either show up bringing their game or they won't and they'll eventually die to us or the Mafia. I move we start with cymru96, as he appears to be the most scummy to the most people so far.

For my part, I'm having a hard time reading cymru. He does seem VERY concerned about appearing scummy, this much is painfully obvious. My concern is that he's also very obviously new at the game. I know in my first Mafia game, I was town too...and I freaked OUT the first time someone even HINTED at suspicion of me...which led EVERYONE in the town to immediately lynch me. I'd probably say that his over-concern for appearing scummy is probably a null-tell because of this...at least from me. He's either noob-town or noob-scum...but really either one as far as I'm concerned.

What does everyone else think?

VisceraEyes · Post Post #81 (isolation #13) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:38 am

@tucah
That's it exactly...I was referencing Miss JJ's attempted RVS vote on Grimm for recognizing him from another game. I was also referencing your red-wine-reasoning. Thanks for clearing that up.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #83 (isolation #14) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:57 am

Attention Newbieville:
I feel there is now officially enough pressure on Zihark to step up his game. He hasn't posted enough to consider him scummy in any way, and with two votes on him, one more and Mafia can hammer him down if he's a townie.

PLEASE DO NOT PUT ANY MORE PRESSURE VOTES ON ZIHARK UNTIL HE POSTS SOME MORE!

That is all.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #85 (isolation #15) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:02 am

@Miss JJ
Whoa, this time YOU beat ME to it.

@cymru
Huh? Surely you didn't just noob-slip tell everyone that you're scum...I've got to be reading that wrong.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #88 (isolation #16) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:15 am

@Miss JJ
Nor should you.

@bigAl
I know YOU have thoughts on this, Mr IC guy. What's your take on cymru?

VisceraEyes · Post Post #93 (isolation #17) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:44 am

@cymru
I would hope you wouldn't be that careless, lol

I think the best thing you can do now is to respond to my and Miss JJ's posts regarding how concerned you are for appearing scummy. Any comments? Questions? Once you do, and a couple more people give their thoughts on you (I for one would like to hear what Grimmjow and a few others have to say), we can move on to another subject.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #95 (isolation #18) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:00 am

@cy (addendum from Grimmjow's post)
.....preferably reasons that don't involve playing the noob-card...it's been pretty much agreed upon that you're a new player, playing the noob-card at this point would only further incriminate you. If you're town, I'd prefer to not lynch you based on that.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #97 (isolation #19) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:22 am

Yeah, that was me. I called for a stop of pressure votes on Zihark (assume Town) because if 3 people (assume Town) vote for him, 2 more (assume Mafia) could jump on board and get him lynched. That's a loss for town, regardless of the fact that we get information based on the voting pattern. As bigAl stated earlier, a little pressure to get the ball rolling is all we need at this point...I for one am not pushing for a lynch quite yet.

I will point out, however, that I have NOT removed my vote for him, based on his entirely OMGUS vote on me. Obviously I'm not opposed to switching my vote once a clearer candidate emerges, but for now I'm okay with him sitting at two votes until he steps it up a bit.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #103 (isolation #20) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:44 pm

I wrote a little song about who I thought was scummy...

Then I scrapped it and decided to list who and why instead.

Stay tuned. Warning: incoming quote and spoiler wall. NSFP (Not Safe For Phone)

VisceraEyes · Post Post #104 (isolation #21) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:38 pm

While I generally feel it's more productive to focus conversation on who we find to be scummy (it forces people subconsciously to look more critically at people), the question right now is "what is your read on people thus far?"

I'll bite, but only because everyone has either posted with a little content and an opinion on something, or has voted.

I'll start with

cymru96

because I've already given my limited read on him, so I can expand on it here.

Spoiler: cymru96 Unofficial Official Vote

cymru's initial vote put me off originally for 2 reasons. First, it appeared to be OMGUS vote, which is never productive for obvious reasons. Second, it seemed obvious to me at the time why bigAl didn't give a reason and claimed his vote was not random.

Every post since that one has been in defense of that vote, or has spoken the same message to me: "I have very limited experience with this game." As I stated, most of his posts have screamed "new" but none of them have screamed scummy.

....except for, obviously...

Spoiler: Newbie Scum-Slip

This post has been answered for by cymru96. He claims that it was a typo and that he hadn't meant to imply that he was actually trying to prove that he was scum. Fair enough. I can only assume that when he says he didn't mean to type it, he didn't mean to.

Ultimately, my read on him is

Town

because he's not only willing to challenge this game's IC (I assume there's one in every game and 2 SE's as well?) implying an eagerness to start scumhunting, but also because he got lynched in his last game trying to scumhunt, which would amply explain his paranoia of appearing too scummy.

Zihark

...2 posts strong. Confirmation, OMGUS. I'm not even going to QUOTE it, it's so inconsequencial. Null-read. Not enough dataz.

In the case of

Grimmjow

, my read was a little easier. I had an initial scummy feeling from him because...

Spoiler: Grimmjow thinks it's bullshit.

He very clearly stated that he didn't agree with the statements in question, but didn't really say why. I also took his 'bullshits' as a sort of "chainsaw defense" of Workdawg from Yonzy's RVS vote.

As he's answered for this, citing previous games as evidence of his...abrasiveness?...and has been generally well-meaning and clear in his intentions, I get a

Town

read on him otherwise.

I'm going to conclude this post with

bigAl

. I had intended to do everyone, but this post has gotten WAY longer than I had anticipated and there's time to do everyone else later (when there's moar dataz).

bigAl is a special case, at least to me. He has the honor of being this game's "Inexperience Challenged" player.

Spoiler: bigAl, IC At Your Service

Helpful poster by decree of the mods? Absolutely. He's been reviewed and certified by the keepers of the way. On the side of Town? WAY too early to say.

He votes for cymru96 in this post. His reason ended up being "because he didn't vote for anyone". Interestingly, only three people had when he posted this (not counting Miss JJ's unofficial and as yet uncorrected vote on Grimmjow, which would have put him at L-1...more on Miss JJ later!).

Spoiler: bigAl has a reason

What I found interesting about this post wasn't even the reason for his vote. What was interesting to me was how he was happy with his vote on cymru96, in spite of cy doing exactly what he was supposed to: demand a reason for his intentionally ambiguous vote. Grimmjow even calls his strategy bullshit, and bigAl doesn't mind a bit. It's interesting to note that bigAl has yet to remove his vote from cymru96. He must still feel he's scummy. Either that, or knows something I certainly don't.

Spoiler: bigAl delves into WIFOM

"...but time enough to defend myself with just a bit of WIFOM."

Ultimately, I get a

SCUM

read from bigAl. He always appears to be second (or third) out the gates in pointing out questionable acts of others, while sprinkling in a few IC tips to build town cred. Also, while this can't REALLY be used as evidence (technically), I find it highly unlikely that the disadvantaged Mafia team wouldn't have either the IC or one of the SE players

Spoiler: Warning, reads without analysis

. Again, the last bit is speculation and entirely baseless as I have no idea how random the team selection is.

As my audacity will likely prod him into activity,

UNVOTE: Zihark
VOTE: bigAl

That's all for now.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #106 (isolation #22) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:22 am

@Miss JJ
What I meant was that you voted for Grimmjow but not in the correct format, and haven't corrected it since. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong.

You're right, I was mistaken as to what the L-X anagrams mean - I should have said that your vote on him would have put him at two votes, tying Grimm for the most votes so far in the game.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #108 (isolation #23) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:36 am

You know, you're right! When I saw your corrected vote, I thought it was Yonzy voting for him...which is why I thought that your corrected vote that "never came" would have put him at 2 votes. Thanks for clearing that up!

VisceraEyes · Post Post #109 (isolation #24) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:39 am

At any rate, my point on bigAl where I made this mistake is still valid - only 3 people had voted when he voted for cymru, for a reason that applied to HALF the town at the time. Not to say that there was anything wrong with his vote at the time...only pointing out the circumstances surrounding it.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #110 (isolation #25) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:58 am

@Miss JJ
You're very concerned about any posts regarding you are very accurate and clear. What I find interesting is that page 5 is going to be almost exclusively dedicated to my reads-post, and the only comment you had on any of it was clarification on you, someone I only gave a limited, non-analyzed read on in that post. This can be viewed a couple of different ways...The most obvious is that you're scum and you don't want ANY suspicion cast on you, no matter how little or inconsequential. The other (and the one I'm more inclined to believe) is that your posts have been used in the past by scum out of context and you're overly concerned about being understood entirely.

So what's your take on my reads? Am I way off? Am I full of crap? Am I some kind of Mafia prodigy with impeccable reads? Your opinion is important. Everyone's is.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #113 (isolation #26) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:07 am

@Nobody Special

Thanks for the clarification!

VisceraEyes · Post Post #118 (isolation #27) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:26 am

@Miss JJ

Miss JJ wrote:Okay, first some to say about the Cymru slip/typo. Yes, it could very well have been a typo but I found it interesting to note some of the responses to it. I'll start with VE:

VisceraEyes wrote:@Miss JJ
Whoa, this time YOU beat ME to it.

@cymru
Huh?
Surely you didn't just noob-slip tell everyone that you're scum...I've got to be reading that wrong
.

Why do you have to be reading this wrong? This seems almost like a nudge to correct a possible slip.

It does, doesn't it? I guess my only response is that the smarter play would've been to let it go and hope that cymru96 corrects it himself WHEN people notice it, not bring attention to it myself, IF I were scum. Obviously WIFOM, but the statement reads how it reads. I can't deny that.

VisceraEyes wrote:@Miss JJ

Nor should you
.

Nor should you...

I haven't. I can assure you I remember it, even if I'm not viewing it as a scum-tell right now.

VisceraEyes wrote:@bigAl
I know YOU have thoughts on this, Mr IC guy. What's your take on cymru?

Why are you asking bigAl for his opinion but not stating yours?

I did. I was the first to point out that it looked like a noob scum-slip. That was my opinion on it, and I wanted to hear bigAl's.

VisceraEyes wrote:@cymru

I would hope you wouldn't be that careless
, lol

Why would you hope someone would not be so careless, especially if you don't know their alignment?

Well, from a team-standpoint you're right. I would hope that he IS that careless and that he just told us his alignment. From a game-standpoint (I'm a pretty fair guy), I would hope he wouldn't screw his partner over by announcing his alignment to everyone. We ALL want a fair game around here, right?

VisceraEyes wrote:@cy (addendum from Grimmjow's post)
.....preferably reasons that don't involve playing the noob-card...it's been pretty much agreed upon that you're a new player, playing the noob-card at this point would only further incriminate you. If you're town, I'd prefer to not lynch you based on that.

What would you prefer to lynch town based on?

Obviously I NEVER want to lynch a town, but if we're forced to lynch someone who ends up being town...I prefer it to be because of inactivity or trolling or uselessness...NOT because someone played the noob-card one too many times when they are, in fact, noobish.

My responses are in bold.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #119 (isolation #28) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:31 am

@cymru
I think it'd be more productive to ask the host to prod him and replace him if necessary. 2 posts in 5 pages is at the very least unacceptable.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #120 (isolation #29) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:20 am

^^

This game is finally starting to get exciting.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #122 (isolation #30) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:29 am

Well, I really meant after 48 hours after his last post..which hasn't elapsed yet...but I like your enthusiasm!

VisceraEyes · Post Post #129 (isolation #31) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:34 pm

Okay...we're horribly lacking in input from a few of us. We still don't have a single bit of content from Zihark, we could use some input from Yonzy and Workdawg, and aside from obvious little one-liners, we haven't gotten much in the way of content from cy either.

Let's buckle down and find some scum guys, the time is now.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #131 (isolation #32) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:54 pm

bigAl wrote:
JJ wrote:LOL This is kind of funny because you could be trying to prove you're not mafia by showing how you have no idea about QTs. I can answer this as I was mafia in a previous game - the one Grimmjow keeps talking about. Our QT was viewable even during the day when we weren't allowed to post. Anyway, it's a good point that even if both mafia didn't get a chance to post, at least one could have.

That would be mighty sneaky of me, wouldn't it? >.>

It would indeed. You seem smart enough to not make a mistake like that though...

GAH, I want some moar DATAZIZ!!!

VisceraEyes · Post Post #133 (isolation #33) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:19 pm

Awesome! Welcome to the party Workdawg.

Workdawg wrote:Sorry about my lack of presence so far, but I've finally had a chance to give the thread a fair read.

I have a few thoughts so far.

Grimm
There's been a lot of talk so far about "trying not to look scum," which I have noticed also. I don't really see him doing this, at least not directly. What I have noticed is that he seems to be trying to explain every significant move he makes. As opposed to trying to be deliberately cautious about what he's doing, he's explaining it all extremely thoroughly.

Another thing is your request for reads from everyone but then barely providing your own. You say you think VE is town, but don't say why. You comment on bigAl is pretty insignificant as well.

VE
Some of his posts just rub me the wrong way. In particular, I'm not really sure what to think about the seeming desire to take a leadership role. "Make sure you don't put hammer someone by accident"... etc.

I'm also interested in why he seems so concerned about what we think of his reads.

I know neither of these are great reads, but there's not much there yet.

On an unrelated note...

I rather prefer RQS to RVS. I know we are past the "random" stage of the game for the most part, but I would still like to ask at least a single question.

What is everyone's experience with mafia? How many games have you played? Here or elsewhere, online, IRL? etc.

Okay, in response to your bit about me.

I'm NO leader. It might appear that way from A) my sheer NUMBER of posts, B) my strength of conviction in a few posts and C) my herding inactives. I'm just trying to find scum, my guy. If there's some kind of law against that, then CALL ME GUILTY!! LOL.....anyway, I'm interested in what people think of my reads because it gives me information about them.

For instance...Let's say Player A calls out a SCUM read on Player B. Player C soft-agreed with Player A. Player D jumps in and says 'Hey, wait a second pal, Player B is the Towniest Town that ever Towned a Town!' Let's just say for the sake of argument that his reasoning was flimsy and Player B gets lynched anyway. Player B flips SCUM. Now Player A has not only a good read on Player D, but a semi-read on Player C as well.

Peoples' opinions and the analysis of them are at the core of scumhunting. Find the contradictions. Find the inconsistencies. FIND THE SCUM!!

VisceraEyes · Post Post #136 (isolation #34) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:23 pm

My experience with Mafia is pretty limited. I got started on Mafia on the Team Liquid website (I'm a SC2 nerd, you got me

) maybe...2 months ago? I signed up for this site shortly after and this is my first game here.

All and all I've played a total of 2 mafia games to completion...but TL Mafia has a lot of good resource material to read, so I've been reading a lot of it.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #140 (isolation #35) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:30 pm

@Miss JJ
Yes, you're absolutely right. As the Host with the Most clarified for me SECONDS before you did, the roles/alignments are determined randomly, and I no longer consider his IC status as a reason I suspect him. The others, for now, still stand however, and I won't be removing my vote from him at this time.

Again, this isn't to say that I WON'T change my vote once a better candidate emerges...He's simply the MOST scummy to me with my VERY VERY VERY limited information to go on.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #148 (isolation #36) » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:29 am

@Grimmjow
I'd be interested to know what you think these multiple oversights/misinterpretations/mistakes/whatever that I've had are. Yeah, I misread the votes on you early game, but Miss JJ very kindly corrected me on that...beyond that, I can't think of anything I've been just WRONG about. What interests me is you reference these "inconsistencies", but what you quote is not even related to any kind of "oversight". We're not discussing it because there's nothing to discuss. I make a pretty pointed attempt to not say statements that aren't true.

@Everyone
The fact of the matter is this: there are approximately 4 super-active players in the game right now, myself, bigAl, Miss JJ, and Grimmjow. We could sit around and point fingers at each other all game, but we are collectively less than half the town. This is a situation that will make it VERY easy for Mafia to hide. I'm willing to sit here and answer questions and give reads on the same 3 people all day if that's what we decide to do. But the fact of the matter is that I'm lacking enough information to give logical reads on the rest of town. This shouldn't bother only me.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #151 (isolation #37) » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:54 am

Man...I must really be wrong about a lot then.

@cymru
Perhaps give us your reads on the 4 most active in town, bigAl, Miss JJ, Grimmjow and myself. Until we get some more info from the rest of town, we're the only ones with enough to get a good read on. Maybe ask a question or two for the inactive players to answer when they get back. Maybe tell us your favorite color. I fail to understand why we should let you skirt by almost as inactive as those who aren't posting, only because you came in and claimed 'Yeah, I'm here...I'm just not posting anything that might incriminate me'. The rest of town who IS participating isn't having any trouble coming up with stuff to say.

bigAl is looking less and less suspicious, and it appears that my vote may be needed elsewhere.

UNVOTE: bigAl

Step it up cymru96. Daylight is wasting.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #154 (isolation #38) » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:33 am

@cymru
Someone having suspicion of you does not make them scum. If you think her reasoning is faulty, that's certainly your business...but don't expect anyone to support your campaign based on nothing but "She is trying to get me lynched" If you think you can build a decent case against Miss JJ, I encourage you to do so. I for one think Miss JJ is playing pretty standard town, but obviously that could be her intent.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #156 (isolation #39) » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:45 am

cymru96 wrote:@VisceraEyes
I don't expect anyone to support my "campaign." I was asked my opinion and I gave it.

VOTE: cymru96

You SHOULD expect EVERYONE to support your "campaign" because that's what we're doing here. If you think she's scum, vote her and try and get everyone else to vote her because we're here to find and kill scum my friend. You were also asked your opinion on bigAl, Grimmjow and myself, so at this point I'm wondering which of those 3 you're protecting by avoiding giving your opinion on them.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #164 (isolation #40) » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:38 pm

UNVOTE: cymru96

FoS: Grimmjow

For his general scummy behavior and evasiveness. Analysis to follow.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #165 (isolation #41) » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:25 pm

The Case of

Grimmjow

Ultimately, I intend to push for Grimmjow's lynch this day, barring some kind of unbelievably scummy action by someone else.

Spoiler: Exhibit A

This post initially set off my scum-sense. As I've stated before in #104, he called Yonzy's reasoning for voting Workdawg 'bullshit' several times. But in this post, he's on the defensive, saying he's never come to Workdawg's defense.

I even proceeded to explain to him why I saw what he was doing as a defense of Workdawg, and he never acknowledges it. Simply doesn't mention it again.

What he DOES do is get ultra-defensive after mis-reading that very post. See Exhibit B.

Spoiler: Exhibit B

The content of this post is pretty irrelevent. He misunderstands what I'm saying and gets super-defensive about it. Also note that he promises to update more with his current reads. This update never comes, as he comes home from a wine-tasting and is in no condition. He does mention that he does NOT believe cymru's claim that his noob-slip was actually an accident.

Finally he posts his reads. They'll be labeled Exhibit C.

Spoiler: Exhibit C

What I find the most interesting about his "reads" is that aside from "marking me off his list", he has NO reads at all. None. Look at how long that post is. Go ahead, open up the spoiler and look again. Not a single read is in the entire thing. Not a single stance he can be held to, not a firm opinion on a single thing.

But don't worry: he's got a tip for noobs at the end. One that has not only already been stated, but one that has been relieved as not much of a concern anyway. Not only that, but he opens it up with "What is YOUR read on people thus far?" Really? You literally JUST promised to come back and give us your reads, and the first thing you say is "What are YOUR reads?" It sounds more and more like you're waiting to hear someone else's reads so you can bandwagon onto their opinion, as to keep yourself free of scrutiny. Oh wait, his NEXT post only confirms this vERY SUSPICION! Enter Exhibit D.

Spoiler: Exhibit D

Bullshit indeed. I thought you were town. Clearly he's hiding behind other peoples' analysis because he's too afraid to give an opinion on someone.

Finally, after prodding from Miss JJ, Grimmjow decides to post on actual opinion on someone. We'll call it...Exhibit E, F and G.

Spoiler: Exhibit E

Grimmjow wrote:Ok, wow, lot's to catch up on.

VE wrote:Second, it seemed obvious to me at the time why bigAl didn't give a reason and claimed his vote was not random.

Oh did you? I don't see anywhere that you gave any indication that was the case. I'm certainly not saying that you didn't, but you gave no idication that you did. Anyone could go back and say "Oh, I knew that reason" and there be no way to prove it. That's beside the point, but I'm just sayin'.

JJ wrote:If you did NOT believe this was a typo you have absolutely no reason not to vote him AND put him at L-2 to at the very least turn the heat up on him and get more than a couple of sentences in response.

Ok, so perhaps I didn't state it well enough, but essentially what I was trying to say here is that even though I didn't believe that it wasn't a slip, I didn't have any more evidence to support a scum theory at the time. And as VE stated:

VE wrote:This post has been answered for by cymru96. He claims that it was a typo and that he hadn't meant to imply that he was actually trying to prove that he was scum. Fair enough. I can only assume that when he says he didn't mean to type it, he didn't mean to.

I'm not willing to say "I can only assume" this was the case, because, as I stated, I don't think this is the case, however there's nothing else to go on here and nothing left to say.

And, as far as that goes, I'm not willing to jump the gun and "assume" he's telling the truth, especially with such a blatant statement as "prove I'm scum." And with VE's assumption here, my "VE is town" has changed to null, and I'm going to keep watch on him.

VE wrote:because he got lynched in his last game trying to scumhunt, which would amply explain his paranoia of appearing too scummy.

cymru wrote:I'm trying to show that I'm not mafia 'cause in the only other game I played I was just trying to find mafia and got lynched in less than an hour.

As far as I can see, he's not been in any other games on the site. Granted, yes, he may have been in games on another site, but as far as this one goes, he's not been in any other games. So I'm not necessarily willing to buy this one yet.

Lynch all liars. Isn't that the mantra? I'm not calling cy a liar, persay, but I don't have evidence that he's not lying.

With that being said:

@cy: can you link us to that game where you got "lynched in less than an hour"?

This post is getting long, so I'm going to break it up. I'll post more in a bit.

Basically this post opens claiming he doesn't trust a quote from one of my posts. He continues by implying that he doesn't trust anything cymru says. He brings up the slip some more, and even requests a link to a previous game to prove an absolutely inane point.

Spoiler: Exhibit F

Grimmjow wrote:Now I do find the back and forth between VE and JJ to be interesting (#105-110). I find it interesting that we have put so much emphasis on a "slip" by cy (granted, it was a blatant "I'm scum" slip) and yet we're not really questioning VE's MULTIPLE oversights/misinterpretations/exaggerations/whatever. JJ seems to be making sure to clarify everything he says about her, which is legitimate. VE calls JJ out in post #110 saying:

VE wrote:I find interesting is that page 5 is going to be almost exclusively dedicated to my reads-post, and the only comment you had on any of it was clarification on you, someone I only gave a limited, non-analyzed read on in that post. This can be viewed a couple of different ways...The most obvious is that you're scum and you don't want ANY suspicion cast on you, no matter how little or inconsequential. The other (and the one I'm more inclined to believe) is that your posts have been used in the past by scum out of context and you're overly concerned about being understood entirely.

However, she does go back and clarify:

JJ wrote:Sorry I missed this earlier. I was just posting on a break during work so I didn't have much time... but I am concerned about your posts about
anyone
being clear. I just didn't see where you got your vote count.

This statement here puts me at a town read for JJ. Had she simply stated that she did want to make sure that posts about
her
were clear, then I'd have an issue here, but she stated that she was concerned about
anyone's
misrepresentation.

As far as that goes, VE's multiple oversights/misinterpretations/exaggerations/whatever makes me even LESS inclined to believe him to be town.

Ok, next topic.

bigAl wrote:I haven't played a game here in a while (before quicktopic was officially introduced), so I don't know if mafia members can see (but not post in) the qt thread during the day, but I assume they can. Meaning that even if it wasn't a two way conversation, I would have had time to post some advice at least. If I were mafia that is.

This is true. The qt is available during the day phase to view. However, just because the IC/SE posts things in there and the noob sees it later does not necessarily mean that the IC/SE remembered/had time to post EVERYTHING. I admit this is breaching into the WIFOM territory (I think I'm using that right), but, as a friendly SE/my boyfriend once stated to me, WIFOM is scum's greatest weapon.

This statement did catch my attention, however:

bigAl wrote:True... but an experienced mafia is less likely to slip-up than a new mafia, which means that a player's experience does matter when considering how suspicious someone is. But yes, we shouldn't assume that there will be an experience player in the mafia group.

That rings more town IC than scum IC to me. If he were scum, he wouldn't want to be drawing attention to his IC-ness as a means of covering stuff up. So I'm willing to say he's a town read for now, but, again, I'm definitely keeping an eye on him simply because he's an IC. I'll be more suspicious, but I'll try to give it a fair go.

Post number 2, concluded. Post 3 will be up soon.

This post is basically a play-by-play of JJ trying to clarify a bit in my first analysis post. Ultimately he decides that he's got a town read on JJ and not a town read on me. Fair enough, but note the reason (stated twice in this post)...MULTIPLE oversights/misinterpretations/exaggerations/whatever. I wanna type it again because I feel it just flows off my fingers. MULTIPLE oversights/misinterpretations/exaggerations/whatever.

What's funny is that he thinks I'm scum because I misread the thread, and JJ corrected me. I thought that was that. And I thought that Grimmjow had a TOWN read on me before this. What that says to me is that he does NOT, in fact, have a non-town read on me...that he IS, in fact, scum trying to cast doubt and suspicion.

Also he's trying his hardest to trust bigAl. Resolves to give him a fair go.

Spoiler: Exhibit G

Basically he just gets super-defensive about Miss JJ "misrepresenting" him.

Directly following his thoughts, I asked him to clarify HIS post, as I felt he was, in fact, misrepresenting ME....blatently.

Spoiler: Exhibit H

Pokes his head in long enough to cast a little doubt on cymru and promise to clarify his "MULTIPLE oversights/misinterpretations/exaggerations/whatever" comment. Yet, he doesn't. His next post will be Exhibit I.

Spoiler: Exhibit I

Oh, so now we're clear. You're saying what you've been saying all along. That my ONE misreading of the thread that has been long corrected by Miss JJ equates to the same thing as being "MULTIPLE oversights/misinterpretations/exaggerations/whatever" (I love typing that ^^) and is more scummy than, as you percieve him, a lying cymru. Fine.

As a result of your repeated evasiveness and scummy behavior, I officially:

VOTE: Grimmjow

Good morning to you, sir.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #169 (isolation #42) » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:12 am

Grimmjow wrote:Now I do find the back and forth between VE and JJ to be interesting (#105-110). I find it interesting that we have put so much emphasis on a "slip" by cy (granted, it was a blatant "I'm scum" slip) and yet we're not really questioning VE's MULTIPLE oversights/misinterpretations/exaggerations/whatever.

Grimmjow wrote:I stated this was the case in his post 104 and it was discussed between 105 and 110 with VE and JJ. My point was that we have been paying attention to cy for his "I'm scum" statement, but we were not as concerned when he misrepresented things in VE's 104.

For the record, you're rudely picking apart the presentation of my case more than answering for the reasons I think you're scum. I'm not saying you're not answering to the charges I'm bearing on you, simply that your post reads more like you're making fun of me than actually defending yourself.

I find that extremely scummy by itself, but that's probably just because it's aimed at me.

Grimmjow wrote:You've REALLY got a problem with me trying to be helpful to the town?

What I've got a problem with it trying to APPEAR helpful to the town by saying something 2 other people have said before already. From my experience, Mafia tend to try and APPEAR pro-town by posting or agreeing with statements made by others previous. THIS is why I found that PARTICULAR post incriminating. Notice I haven't posted any of your OTHER helpful-to-town posts. Those were good, sound advice that hadn't been brought up by others.

Grimmjow wrote:Inane? Bringing out the big boy vocabulary here, no? And how is this inane if I cleary stated in the exact same post that "lynch all liars" being the usual mantra, I didn't have evidence one way or the other. So, I requested that he give me evidence that he wasn't lying. And, hey, guess what, he didn't.

Lynch-All-Liars typically refers to people lying about in-game things...like "I got blocked last night" or "I'm the Cop". Not passing quotes about previous games that one is trying to learn from. If you asked me to post you one of my games from Team Liquid, I'd tell you to go straight to hell...because I was a total n00b in those games and it's flipping embarassing. And it's none of your business what I do on other sites. And I say that KNOWING I have nothing to hide. I called it inane because who CARES if he was slightly exaggerating about getting lynched in the first hour...if he was lynched in the first day, that's probably what it felt like to him. I'm ABSOLUTELY not concerned about Meta...especially in a NOOB game where, technically, we're ALL supposed to be almost VOID of previous experience.

Grimmjow wrote:Except in my very next post I did. Your case on how I promised to clarify but didn't, yet in my very next post I did, is utter bullshit and a blatant lie.

No, you didn't. What you did was site the EXACT SAME statement, the back and forth between JJ and myself, and consider the matter closed. But you put SPECIAL EMPHASIS on the fact that I've done this MULTIPLE TIMES...you're counting the same instance of me mis-reading the thread as MULTIPLE instances of trying to deceive town. It's NOT bullshit. It's NOT a blatant lie. It's fact.

I understand that most of this pressure FEELS more powerful than it actually is. That's no reason to get personal and attack my playing-style. As rude as I think you've been so far in the game, I haven't attacked YOUR play-style. Only calmly, coolly (and cutely =P) stated the reasons I've found you scummy.

Grimmjow wrote:YOU FRIGGIN IDIOT.

And I hope everyone else sees your vote for what it is, a vote on me because I voted on you. Until I brought any attention to bear on you, you've considered me town. Now that the light shines your way, people can see you for what you are. Don't get mad at me about it.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #172 (isolation #43) » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:02 pm

Sorry Al, was there something you needed clarified? I know it's a wall, but it's content worth reading.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #177 (isolation #44) » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:03 pm

What I enjoy the most about your posts Grimm is how you tell me how bullshit everything I say is...just not why. WHY is my case against you ridiculous? WHY am I clearly scum? Everything I had against you, I cited examples and had specific reasons why I said the things I did...which I shared with the town openly. You're just like 'Nu uh! That's Bullshit!'

That'll probably fly for....another day. Any longer, and I'm in the wrong flipping town. -.-

VisceraEyes · Post Post #178 (isolation #45) » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:09 pm

I thought I should add that the previous statement was THICK with sarcasm as I typed it...but looking back, I can see how someone as astute as Miss JJ would call me out for saying that I like how lacking in content Grimm's posts are.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #180 (isolation #46) » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:17 pm

I'd appreciate if you didn't talk down to me like an idiot.

No, if you feel your reasoning is sufficient, don't go to any extra effort on my behalf. I'm comfortable with where my vote is.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #184 (isolation #47) » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:03 pm

UNVOTE: Grimmjow

This is asinine.

VOTE: No Lynch

I'm done scum-hunting today. I like how I prepare this huge post about Grimmjow and not a single person has an opinion on it. Not. One. Workdawg was closest to having an opinion, but it ended up being a segue into describing how he plays...not a comment about my case or Grimm's defense. This town is going nowhere, and quickly. I'm glad we have a replacement, that's certainly a start.

Votes are serious, people. If we mis-lynch someone, that's one less day we have before mafia wins. When someone makes a statement like "I'm going to be pushing for a lynch on X person today" that should mean something, ESPECIALLY since we have the option of not lynching. That means that said person has decided that lynching that person that day is more important to them than waiting for more information. It's a serious statement, that should be taken seriously.

As a result, I'm withdrawing my vote on Grimmjow. I'm willing to wait for more information before I push for a lynch on him. As I don't have any other leads, I'm changing my vote to 'No Lynch' and waiting.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #188 (isolation #48) » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:23 am

@bigAl
We'll see what happens. I'm questioning about half my reads on Grimmjow at this point...but only the really ambiguous and reachy half (defending Workdawg, for example.) Hopefully Dickov will give us a fresh outlook.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #192 (isolation #49) » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:15 am

@Workdawg
Well, good luck hunting scum with Mr. Everything-is-Bullshit-and-Everyone-Is-Stupid-But-Me.

I'm keeping my eyes open for slips, but as I stated earlier, I'm done scum-hunting today. I fully intend to vote with town, just so there are no surprises. Unless everyone just wants to vote for me...then I'll keep my vote on NL and wish you all good luck.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #194 (isolation #50) » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:38 pm

Day 1. My efforts are netting town nothing at this point. I'm going to vote for whomever the rest of town decides is the best candidate. I hope it's at least an inactive, but if the town decides that my efforts in scumhunting, encouraging discussion, using REASON to back up my statements and keeping an open mind should be considered scummy, then Mafia has ALREADY won. If I survive tonight, I'm perfectly willing to try again tomorrow.

I'd like to point out that if I'm wrong about something, that would NOT make me scum. Being Mafia would make me scum. Being wrong just makes me wrong. If I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong. Don't make fun of me. Don't poke fun at my posts because I took time and effort to make them pretty. I think it's funny how when I pointed out that Grimm was being a condescending jerk, he IMMEDIATELY apologizes when no one is on his side...but the very SECOND someone else calls me to the stand, it's back to 'Oh man, what an idiot.'

Typically shit like this doesn't bother me, but I feel like I've been playing the best town game of my LIFE. Clearly I'm missing something.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #196 (isolation #51) » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:25 pm

I'm not arguing with you anymore Grimm. And I'm certainly not doing anymore quote-walls this day. I've already seen what that gets me.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #199 (isolation #52) » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:45 pm

Actually, no. I've changed my mind. I'm going to keep scumhunting until I DIE if that's what it takes. But I'm not going to answer ANY of Grimm's accusations that I consider to be any of the following: WIFOM, OMGUS, baseless or just wrong...as I consider him to be scummy. If anyone else agrees with any of his pseudo-points against me, feel free to restate them...but I'll address the points I feel are valid.

Spoiler: Workdawg's Points

Workdawg wrote:
@VE

Post 180 you say "I'm comfortable with where my vote is."

Post 184, not 3 hours later, you unvote and follow up with what appears to be a hissy fit about how no one commented about your case. Certainly there is a lack of activity around here, and that's no good, but what changed in those 3 hours? It hadn't even been posted for 24 hours and you've already backed down? It took me a long time to get used to the idea of days lasting WEEKS around here, but you've got understand that not everyone is going to be able to check the site every day; or even every couple days. It's even worse for someone who's super active, like you are.

Okay, first of all, you're right. I threw a hissy fit about how no one commented on my case. There's a reason. The Mafia games I'm used to follow a 48/hr day cycle, 24/hr night cycle. I had NO IDEA signing up for this site that the newbie games would move at SUCH A SLOW PACE. Even reading it I thought in the back of my head 'Huh, well surely we can find someone scummy enough to lynch within 48-72 hours anyway, regardless of our upper-limit..right? Right?' What is it, THREE WEEKS day cycle? It's just not moving fast enough for my taste, and that's no one's fault but my own for overestimating my patience.

Between the you and Grimm, you posted 3 pretty big walls. It's a lot to read, as bigAl pointed out. It's taken me a few rereads and I still don't really have my head around all of it.

VOTE: VE

: (

For a handful of posts that come across as "too town" to me. WE NEED MOAR ACTIVITY! DON'T PUT ANYONE AT L-2! etc. It looks like he's just trying to earn some town cred to me.

I dislike the phrase "Too Town"...I play balls-to-the-wall, every game. "Too Town" implies that one should watch what they say, because doing something TOO helpful for town could cast a scummy light. People shouldn't be AFRAID to act the way they're expected to act, and I'm certainly not going to be because YOU think I'm playing "too town".

(In fact, I wonder if post 83 was him trying to make sure his scum-buddy zihark wasn't lynched too early)

Think logically. What would I have to gain from A) drawing attention to his inactivity and B) voting for him if I were his scum-buddy?

And for flopping around on his votes

Vote 1. Pressure vote on zihark because he hasn't posted much.
Vote 2. Big al - for what boils down to: trying to jumpstart the game, posting less often (being late to pointing out suspicious things), and a making a lame WIFOM statement.
Vote 3. Cym - for not sharing his reads.

The first three I'm generally ok with.

Vote 4. Grimm - not 12 hours after his vote for cym, he FoS's Grimm and then posts a case against him. Cym hadn't posted at all in this time, though I would say both bigAl and myself expressed low concern about him during this time. Grimm had only posted one significant post during this time also (162), but all the sudden VE is all over his business.

This is explained easily. In his ONE post you reference, he makes mention of MULTIPLE mistakes/misrepresentations/oversights/whatever (:P)...this instantly put him on my scumdar as I try to make it a point to be very clear and mistake free. I HAD made a mistake, but it was clarified by Miss JJ and it was absolutely resolved. Except that Grimmjow didn't think so, for whatever reason. When I asked him to clarify, he didn't do it satisfactorily and I pounced. Again, this is probably a direct result of playing somewhere where the games are MUCH faster paced...but I digress.

Vote 5. Unvote - this is what really piqued my interest. As I mentioned above... it's barely been 24 hours and already he's abandoning ship in what's been pretty much the only real case against someone so far. He keeps wanting everyone to post up more, and he's essentially stifling that now by unvoting.

Yeah, I threw a tantrum. We covered this. My bad. It won't happen again.

My thoughts are in

BOLD

Apparently I wasn't fast enough...Workdawg, hopefully this is slightly redeeming. If not, we'll just have to see what pans out in the near future.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #200 (isolation #53) » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:49 pm

EBWODP:

Also, my little tantrum has effectively done the OPPOSITE of stifling conversation...interesting how that works out. =D Not that it was intentional...just thought it was interesting.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #201 (isolation #54) » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:51 pm

Grimmjow wrote:Look, I'm not saying argue with me. What I am saying is that basically throwing your hands up in the air gets the town and this game nowhere. So how about we not argue and instead we actually just try to play the game?

Now, that being said, I'd like to point out, once again, that several people are still inactive, and this isn't getting us anywhere. Assuming that the 4 or 5 of us that are being active are town, that means we're essentially turning on one another while scum sits back. I'm keeping my vote on VE, but let's keep an eye out as well. Also, I'm interested to know what the replacement is going to say.

Just take your vote off me already...we both know you're going to do it. You just didn't wanna do it first. And now you don't have to. So do it.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #206 (isolation #55) » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:39 pm

agreed...that would rock. I heard that the upper echelons of this site move faster? Is that not accurate?

VisceraEyes · Post Post #210 (isolation #56) » Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:43 pm

@Grimmjow

You need to take a step back and calm down. Now, clearly you have no sense of humor. Let me put it to you this way. This play-by-play of the last few posts is just useless repetition. If you've gone back and reread something scummy pages ago, and you think you should bring attention to it, post about that. But this business of posting everything I say and just saying "I think this is scummy" is getting ridiculous. Especially when it was PAINFULLY obvious that I was making a joke. Now, you've stated your case against me. At length. You don't accept any defense, your mind is ABSOLUTELY made up. Now let everyone else make up their own mind. Start looking for my scum-partner if you're so sure I'm scum. But I can assure you, the more you tunnel me, the scummier you look to the rest of town. This isn't even an attack, it's an observation. PLEASE just drop it.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #212 (isolation #57) » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:01 pm

Honestly? The bit about take your vote off me? You really think I think you're just gonna unvote me because I asked you to? I even put a cute little wink at the end and everything. Honestly, do I need to use the [joke]tag[/joke]? lol

VisceraEyes · Post Post #213 (isolation #58) » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:13 pm

How about this as a compromise. I'll stop saying I think you're scummy just in general conversation as long as you stop saying I'M scummy in general conversation, with the mutual understanding that we just consider the other scummy and we may or may not at any given time have cast a vote to hang the other one to death. Unless we're actually building a post against the other, we'll just treat each other as mutually suspicious <.< >.> <.< townsfolk.

Deal?

VisceraEyes · Post Post #225 (isolation #59) » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:27 am

Good deal. Other than Grimm, everyone else is reading sorta null for me, except Work who's looking more and more town as the day goes on. As far as Miss JJ's absence...I hope her return can clear some things up. She had started looking town to me too before she left, so I'm interested in her input on the current atmosphere.

In response to Work, my little tantrum had NO benefit for town, you're right. It was absolutely NOT town motivated...it was frustration motivated. I didn't care about the town at the time because I felt like no matter how hard I tried, this town was just going to sit and stagnate. As I explained earlier, I'm still not used to the time-scale here. I'm not saying you should forget about it, I'm simply explaining why looking for some kind of "town-oriented motivation" is a waste of time during that PARTICULAR period of the day.

Until next time.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #227 (isolation #60) » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:51 am

cymru, try and follow Grimms format if mine is too elaborate. Just quote a suspicious post and follow it with why you think it's suspicious. I don't disagree with you that Grimm could be stirring the pot to try and cover something up, but I don't necessarily agree with your assessment that Miss JJ is scum, so I would ALSO appreciate if you found some kind of evidence of that, ESPECIALLY if you're going to buck town's only REAL voting controversy and vote for someone by yourself. That appears VERY scummy to me. Your vote should either be on me or Grimm unless you have some sort of serious case against someone else.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #231 (isolation #61) » Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:27 am

Grimmjow wrote:This is very true. Except Workdawg has been posting more. And that only leaves 2 people, both of whom are going to be replaced out/are being prodded, so it's unlikely that BOTH of them are scum.

This is an excellent point. Chances are, at least one of the Mafia has already posted. I further speculate that at least one Mafia is among the MOST active of the players in this game. But as my reads on Grimm are at this point unreliable (he's at the very least posting a LOT more pro-town now), I have less of an idea who that might be.

cymru96 wrote:I do think that Miss JJ is scum, I stand by that 'cause everyone was like it's most likely a typo and then she jumps in with it's definately NOT a typo.

I can understand why this would cause you frustration, especially assuming you're town, you KNOW she's wrong, but calling her scum for this is entirely "OMGUS". In case you're not familiar with the term, it's an acronym for "OH MY GOD U SUCK!". It's not saying that I think YOU suck, it's saying that you only consider Miss JJ scum because she thinks you're scum...in essence YOU'RE saying "OMGUS" to Miss JJ. It's one of the reasons I thought Grimm was targetting me, but in hindsight, I can see how he thinks I'm scum based on my posts (especially the latter ones...sorry again guys). Back up your claims with facts please.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #232 (isolation #62) » Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:29 am

EBWODP:
",especially assuming you're town, "since" you "would" KNOW she's wrong,"

Sorry, I'm a perfectionist.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #271 (isolation #63) » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:16 pm

YAY! He's here! *gasp* ................................................. *whew* YAY! He's here!

VisceraEyes · Post Post #272 (isolation #64) » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:22 pm

I don't know if I'm just drunk....but I think it's RIDICULOUS that I was just a vote away from being lynched. LOL

@Grimmjow
If your vote is still on me in the morning, you're RETARDED and I'm NOT going to respond to a THING you say until it's off. You literally have NO case against me and I almost got lynched because of your idiocy.

@Workdawg
Your vote is good. Your reasons are valid. That is all.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #278 (isolation #65) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:06 am

@Tomie
Thank goodness for you child...I can't tell you what a relief it is that you're actually helping and not just sitting there soaking up hours-until-replacement.

As for your comment on Pokemon, I'm not sure if you read the ENTIRE thread, but Pokemon replaced in for Zihark...what's funny about that is Zihark's first post with "content" was "OMG Viscera voted for me, I'm voting for Viscera"...Pokemon's first post with "content" turned out to be "OMG Viscera voted for Zihark, I'm voting for Viscera". The difference is that Pokemon was at least willing to appease town by unvoting me. Zihark just disappeared.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #282 (isolation #66) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:33 am

Grimmjow wrote:
Tomie Uzumaki wrote:(as he's cute, though it will never work out due to obv details , and this personality doesn't fit that)

Just a random side note, wtf does this mean?

I think it means that she thinks your cute, but as you're a guy and refer to your boyfriend.......you know...it wouldn't work out.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #283 (isolation #67) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:39 am

@Workdawg
Any hit to town is a big hit, especially in a game with 9 players. Do you realize that with 8 players, it STILL takes 5 votes to lynch someone? Those are BIG percentages my guy. Lynching a townie is NOT an option...especially since we're on Majority Vote mode with THREE WEEKS to make a final decision. The fact that you think of losing me as an acceptable loss is...telling.

I don't know what else to say in regard to my little freak-out. All I really can say at this point is we're all human and if I'm not allowed to get frustrated, I request a freaking mod-kill.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #289 (isolation #68) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:54 am

It looked to me like he meant that a prod would make her speak up, giving us more information...not so much that the prod itself would bring something to light.

@bluepokemon
[sarcasm]Well, thanks for telling Mafia who NOT to target during the night-phase.[/sarcasm] It's VERY important NOT to give mafia more information. They already have more information than the town as a whole does, and now they have EVEN MORE.

For the record, during the day, having a power is exactly the same as being a vanilla townie. You can only use your powers at night, so it would be equally boring right now even if you DID have a power.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #306 (isolation #69) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:04 pm

Quick thought: regarding bluepokemon...it could very well be that he takes attacks so personally because he's afraid of what the attention might illuminate. Kinda a null-tell obviously, if he's a VERY new player, but you never know.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #309 (isolation #70) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:06 pm

Attention: with new players in the mix, there should be no reason why cymru is lurking.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #313 (isolation #71) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:11 pm

Grimm: IMHO, noob has a negative connotation associated with it. I can understand getting defensive. But I see what you're saying...maybe the term "new player" would be more appropriate? I wouldn't take offense personally, but I can totally understand why someone would.

Again, I find it interesting how quickly bluepokemon is willing to not only vote for NO reason, but vote for VERY LITTLE reason as well...but buckles under the minimal pressure Grimm applies.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #315 (isolation #72) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:13 pm

I suggest EVERYONE go back and reread the thread objectively now that we've got a lot more activity. Posting your thoughts on EVERYONE would be helpful.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #320 (isolation #73) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:21 pm

I think he's referring to your abrasiveness and brashness...a clear sign that he didn't read the entire thread. Just sayin.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #321 (isolation #74) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:22 pm

It's interesting though - you HAVE toned it down considerably...so he may just be referring to the back and forth between you and me, being a sign that he read SOME of the thread at least.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #325 (isolation #75) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:25 pm

@Grimm
Very true. I hadn't thought of it that way.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #336 (isolation #76) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:08 pm

@Grimm:

VisceraEyes wrote:Quick thought: regarding bluepokemon...it could very well be that he takes attacks so personally because he's afraid of what the attention might illuminate. Kinda a null-tell obviously, if he's a VERY new player, but you never know.

I hardly think this is defending sir.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #338 (isolation #77) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:10 pm

A little insight into my play: I give almost everyone the benefit of the doubt until they do something suspicious to me. I was trying to make you see his PoV when I said that bit about 'noob' and then his defensiveness started to seem a little suspicious to me. I fail to see why you'd say I'm defending him 'the whole time'...

VisceraEyes · Post Post #345 (isolation #78) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:15 pm

Grimmjow wrote:I also have to say that I find in incredibly interesting that when I say that talking with both VE and Blue individually will give me more information than the long forum version, both of them log off pretty soon afterwards... Noting that VE has kinda been defending Blue the whole time and Blue's "?" read on VE, I could see a possible scumteam here...

Yeah, like I said before...I play on a different forum sometimes, and they run on a 48/hr day and 24/hr night cycle. It's MUCH faster paced than this, which means that some of the methods of determining scumminess have to be a little different too. But it basically DEMANDS activity, so they work with a banlist too...if you are mod-killed in a game, you're banned for a game. Multiple offenses cause longer bans...it's pretty tightly-run. The end result, however, is LARGER games, MORE ACTIVE games and FASTER games. This is cool too, I'm finding, because it gives you MUCH longer to scum-hunt...I can't really say which I like better.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #346 (isolation #79) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:15 pm

Whoa, I quoted the wrong post. lol That should've been the bit about speed-mafia.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #348 (isolation #80) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:19 pm

Grimmjow wrote:
My first game, I gave everyone "the benefit of the doubt" and it ended up biting us in the ass. I was the only person that said "eh, I dunno" towards one scum person because of his newness where everyone else was like "Oh, he's newish, idk" and we ended up screwed because of it. So I'm not doing it this time.

I can see what you're saying, totally...but what I do isn't really trust everyone. It's giving them leeway until something truly scummy comes up...such as promising to post something and then disappearing when it's an engaging discussion...or voting for someone based on flimsy reasoning and disappearing.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #350 (isolation #81) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:20 pm

Actually, you haven't outright SAID your gay in the thread yet...you HAVE mentioned your boyfriend many times though...yet another indication of blue's lack of reading the thread. I'm detecting a pattern.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #355 (isolation #82) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:25 pm

Grimmjow wrote:Have you heard of the term "buddying"? It refers to scum trying to get in the good graces of a townie by saying "hey, you're right " or "I can see why he does this." It takes blame off of the scum Not saying that's what VE's doing; I'm just saying it's something to consider.

My problem with this line of reasoning is this: ANYONE can agree with someone. That's more a null-tell than anything. But obviously I'm biased because you're referring to me...

I just don't think people should be afraid to come to another's defense if they're being called out for something...obviously scum need to be more careful, so if anything, I'd say it's more of a town-tell than a scum-tell. But like I said...what it boils down to is that it could be either without context and is therefor null.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #359 (isolation #83) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:28 pm

Word.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #361 (isolation #84) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:30 pm

I'm actually surprised you still want to take that perspective. When you decided I was scum we still weren't playing with half the players. This indicates a VERY closed mind to me. I mean, obviously you find my behavior scummy...but take all things into consideration man.

Look at it this way. Having decided I'm scum already, you're ruling out the possibility of scumteams that don't involve me, so you won't see them. And now that we've got activity from more people, that's a big freaking hole in your vision sir.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #363 (isolation #85) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:31 pm

Grimmjow wrote:RANDOM FREAKING SIDENOTE:

VE: I'm a fan of your avatar.

Maybe I should stop with this tonight. I'm a wee bit tipsy...

But I'm having fuuuuuun. (aaaaand, I'm a nerd XD)

Yes, Gir is amazing. I'm looking for another season or two from Vasquez once his pseudo-fame wears off and he starts to get the itch again.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #366 (isolation #86) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:35 pm

Tell me this: I know I'm not scum. What can I do to convince you? Clearly I don't look AS scummy as when we were arguing, or it wouldn't be this civil in the thread (I'm drunk too, so I KNOW this, man!)...so what is it that bothers you about my play that has you SO convinced I'm scum? Seriously, if my town-play is this scummy, I NEED to know.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #370 (isolation #87) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:42 pm

Fair enough.
My advice to you is to unvote me. You can always vote me later if you've decided after looking at EVERYONE, I'm the best choice...but with your vote on me you're just going to keep looking for reasons to justify it further. All it does is encourage scum to bandwagon me when the time is right. Votes should be used to pressure people to answer your questions at this point...most everyone is relatively active, so pressuring for activity isn't an issue...but now that everyone is participating, you can use your vote to force people to answer for things you think are scummy and such.

I'm sure you're aware you've already got MY full cooperation.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #375 (isolation #88) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:50 pm

Honestly, MUCH more town, as I stated earlier today. You've got a clear head when posting and you seem to be giving MUCH more thought to whether or not things are scummy. After the meltdown we had earlier, this seems to me like you're trying to see things from a slightly different perspective. You unvoting me only confirms this.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #378 (isolation #89) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:53 pm

IMHO, keeping an open mind and viewing things externally are some VERY beneficial town traits...it allows you to differentiate between scummy and just bad town play. You're demonstrating both of these now, so yeah...much more town IMHO.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #383 (isolation #90) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:02 pm

I suggest Notepad on the side. It's how I do ISOs. You can even put the BB code in there so you don't have to mess with it as much when you copy-paste it back in here.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #385 (isolation #91) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:06 pm

It means he's looking at one person's posts only...in ISOlation. It's a way to spot inconsistencies/lies and pick out scummy behavior.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #386 (isolation #92) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:07 pm

Unfortunately, it also means he won't see this til he's done unless, like me, he's got a tab open with the running thread too.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #394 (isolation #93) » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:18 pm

Hey...I find all notes interesting. If you post them, I'll take the fact that you're...hazy?...into account.

In the meantime, I'm gonna go to bed. Early day of celebrating Dad's Day tomorrow.

I really think we broke down a wall tonight Grimm. I look forward to scum-hunting with you soon, guy.

Blue, you really should consider committing to a stance if you hope to wipe the smell of scum off you. Voting doesn't count because you can unvote. You have to SAY something and MEAN it. It's the TOWN thing to do. I understand you're not confident with your reads, but you're new and that's expected. Just tell everyone what you think and don't be afraid to sound too scummy. If you do that, you'll find you won't sound as scummy as you think, as you'll have actually contributed, one way or the other.

I'll see you guys tomorrow!

VisceraEyes · Post Post #403 (isolation #94) » Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:43 am

No, I agree with bigAl. Blue was kinda just along for the ride last night. He hasn't given a BIT of reasoning for ANY of his votes aside from saying Grimm is "Jumpy"...which I DON'T agree with, necessarily.

Keeping an eye on how blue posts.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #418 (isolation #95) » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:51 am

FoS: cymru96

At first I was willing to write off his suspicious behavior as newbie uncertainty. But as he's unwilling to commit to any kind of serious stance against anyone, I'm no longer willing to accept that assessment.

@cymru96
I'll make it my mission to see you lynched unless you can provide some sort of analysis on your suspect list, which right now appears to only contain Miss JJ. If you're suspicious of others, don't even MENTION it unless you're also going to provide some sort of reasoning behind it. One-sentence-responses don't count either, because it's ambiguous and doesn't give me enough information to judge YOU, which is the ENTIRE point of the exercise in the first place.

@Tomie
I've got thoughts on your case, which I'll share in a separate post.

@Host
You Rox0rz.

Why, thank you!

VisceraEyes · Post Post #434 (isolation #96) » Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:58 pm

Greetings Cobbler! It's good to see another active replacement.

I'm going to say something radical, and I don't want everyone to freak out about it. Here goes.

With as many replacements as we've had today, would it be absolutely out of the realm of feasibility to consider a No Lynch today, considering none of us are really going to get a full-cycle's read on everyone (I PbPA almost everyone as soon as I can on my end due to being used to the 48/24 cycles I'm used to, so I'm indifferent)....if not, I'm not trying to change any minds or bring it up further...I'm only raising the possibility, again. My reasoning is that, for at least the replacements, they'll get a chance to get a fair read on everyone for a more informed lynch tomorrow.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #436 (isolation #97) » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:16 pm

*sigh*

@cymru
Your case is the following, if I'm understanding it at all.

MissJJ called my mistake a scum-slip. I told her it was an accident. She said it was NOT an accident. I think she's scum.

Am I missing anything?

VisceraEyes · Post Post #437 (isolation #98) » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:36 pm

Cobblerfone wrote:
Workdawg wrote:Grimm and VE still seems like town on town to me. They're getting along better, so that's good I guess. FWIW, my initial vote on VE was a pressure vote, and when he flipped his shit, it didn't help AT ALL. Am I convinced he's scum, no. Do I still think there is a chance he is, sure. I don't like my vote sitting idle on no one though, so it stays where it is for now.

*my computer is now awashed in a mist of orange juice*

What? You do realize how suspicious that sounds don't you?

I'm with Cobbler on this one. If you no longer find someone suspicious enough to lynch, and you're not trying to pressure them for information, there's no town-motivated reason to have your vote on that person. As I explained to Grimm, all that serves to do is encourage YOU to look for ways to justify your vote further, if only subconsciously, and encourages mafia to push for a bandwagon. I suggested that Grimm take his vote off me, but he was blinded by tunnel-vision. You appear to at least be looking other places, so I'll leave it to your discretion. But be aware that it's commonly viewed as anti-town to leave a vote on someone you admittedly don't find particularly scummy.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #440 (isolation #99) » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:23 pm

Just me and the Mod it looks like.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #451 (isolation #100) » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:01 am

@Workdawg
It's true, and I withdraw my suggestion. As I said, I'm not in the business of pushing this option. Was simply raising it as a possibility, again.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #453 (isolation #101) » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:16 am

@Cobbler
I don't mind a vote on cymru, opportunistic or not. If he's town, he'll step up his game. If he's not, well, the vote is well placed isn't it?

Conversely, if Workdawg is town, a vote seems like a natural progression from 3 FoS. If he's scum, yes. That seems pretty opportunistic. However, as he's the only one putting a vote on him for now, that could be viewed as...silly?...of mafia because there would be attention on him. I don't know, it seems more like a town-vote than a scum one.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #457 (isolation #102) » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:26 am

@Tomie
I appreciate your effort and I find your reads logical and well reasoned. Please, allow me to share a few thoughts with you.

First, I think that you and Workdawg might just be rubbing each other the wrong way. You're both asking the right questions, but you're asking each other instead of asking everyone else. I think it's worth noting that Work has been pretty forthcoming with his reads, at least in their primitive "town read on X, null on Y" form early on...and he was onboard with Grimm lynching me for good reasons. Pushing the idea that he isn't giving his opinions seems...unfair?

VisceraEyes · Post Post #460 (isolation #103) » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:49 am

UNVOTE: Unvote
VOTE: cymru96
Based on lack of real stance against anyone, failure to provide sufficient reasoning for voting, and scummy behavior in general. I told you I'd see you hang for it.

VisceraEyes · Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:01 am

UNVOTE: cymru96
cymru, being wrong doesn't make someone scum. That's a fact. If she misread you, that's fine. But unless she pushes for your lynch or tries to convince others to excess that you're scum, there's NO reason to believe that she's scum just because she's wrong about your typo.

What I'm saying is, yes, your reasoning DOES suck. It doesn't mean YOU suck, it just means that being wrong =/= being scum. Could you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE take a look at others and see if there's someone who's more scummy to you, ASSUMING THAT YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT MISS JJ? What you're doing is called 'tunneling' and it's bad for town. It's the cause of 90% of mislynches, I guarantee it.

VisceraEyes · Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:56 am

Bluepokemon and cymru are both painfully obviously new at this game. I'm concerned about the new players. I have a strong sense that one of them is probably scum...but I couldn't even imagine which is which. Both vote for seemingly no reason, both can't really articulate why they vote the way they do, but it would be a miracle of statistics if they were both scum. They COULD both be Town, but I find that unlikely as well because of the way they both post. cymru appears to be afraid to give an opinion, and Bluepokemon is super-spammy...both scummy traits.

I'd appreciate if everyone could give me their thoughts on the two new players.

@Blue
I am.

VisceraEyes · Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:33 am

I'm saying I suspect that one of you two is scum. Obviously I don't know whether or not one of you two is scum. But based on the way you vote, the way you post and the way you seem, I'd say there's a pretty good chance of one of you two being scum, yes.

VisceraEyes · Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:51 am

UGH...that sounds so SCUMMY sir! lol

Here's why I say that: it sounds like you're scum and already know that he's going to flip red, and that once he does, you're off the hook. If you were town, you wouldn't offer up yourself if ANOTHER townie dies and flips green. That's about the WORST thing, ya know?

VisceraEyes · Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:55 am

Well, technically you're not allowed to vote for yourself, but I guess I appreciate your enthusiasm.

VisceraEyes · Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:00 pm

Well, I mean, these aren't the Yu-Gi-Oh forums, are they? This is an ENTIRE forum dedicated to Mafia, and as such has slightly stricter rules.

VisceraEyes · Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:08 pm

Actually, no...I can't. Disregard and feel free to vote for yourself and screw whatever team is unlucky enough to have you. What I thought was a rule was actually just a guideline posted by Cobbler earlier in the thread.

Cobblerfone wrote:Also, I forget if it's been brought up yet but here's a couple of rules that are good to follow:

1. Don't vote for yourself.

2. Don't cause the lynching vote on someone until they claim their role and there's been time for a counter-claim. Depending on how scummy they are or how much of a risk taker that person might be, THEN we decide to lynch them or not. Usually if there isn't a counterclaim, we don't. If there IS a counterclaim, then we lynch one of them.

@IC, this is good, yes? I wouldn't want people thinking I'm trying to manipulate them through some kind of ridiculous scheme.

Sorry about the mix-up, I totally thought that was a rule.

VisceraEyes · Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:11 pm

Eh, I knew the rules are at the beginning of the thread.

That SHOULD be a rule though, it totally screws the game for whichever team that person is on. I mean, if they successfully lynch themselves, that is.

VisceraEyes · Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:40 pm

No Lynch is temporary. I wouldn't get too comfortable.

VisceraEyes · Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:53 pm

No pressure or anything....le sigh

VisceraEyes · Post Post #501 (isolation #114) » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:25 pm

Cobblerfone wrote:
VE wrote:No pressure or anything....le sigh

Towniest townie that ever towned a town!

So yeah, I've been reading through ISO's and while I do believe I now more fully understand everybody's positions, it hasn't given me any additional leads on scum. It has given me a headache though. I've read:
Miss JJ + The ISO's of her previous games (Just now)
Workdawg (just now)
Tomie (just now)
Cymru (earlier)

I'll reread bigAl's later.

Aw, shucks...honestly though, I think bigAl and you BOTH are townier than I am...but that's just my opinion.

Cobbler, between cymru96 and Bluepokemon, who do you think would make the better lynch today?

VisceraEyes · Post Post #503 (isolation #115) » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:34 pm

@Grimm
....only going further and saying that unconditionally, whoever you vote for, I vote for. Apparently including himself. I REALLY don't like it...

VisceraEyes · Post Post #510 (isolation #116) » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:12 pm

I think any discussion about lynching bigAl should be saved for a different day if you guys feel he's scummy. I think we can all agree that he won't be the lynch target today, one way or the other.

But I'm fully willing to discuss almost anyone else at this point, as he's the only IC. I brought up cymru and Blue because I feel strongest about lynching one of them today, but I'll go back and reread Workdawg as Cobbler has mentioned preferring to lynch him today.

Grimm, who do you think you'd be most for lynching today, assuming what you say goes and the one you finger gets lynched? (PS, it's okay to say me too, if that's how you feel...the question was NOT loaded.)

VisceraEyes · Post Post #512 (isolation #117) » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:17 pm

Cobblerfone wrote:
For the record this does ring a kind of alarm bell as well. But... You definitely seem to be trying to find the best lynch.

...it's what we're here for, yes?

VisceraEyes · Post Post #516 (isolation #118) » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:02 pm

Grimmjow wrote:Actually, I was just bitching to my bf about how I have NO clue who's scum in this game. Cy and Blue are noob and playing so... I don't want to use the word "poorly," but that's the best word for this... that I can't get a read on either of them. Tomie, as I have stated, doesn't really do anything that I can see except recap things; Cobbler, as I stated, seems scum to me, but recently he's been coming off as more and more town; Al I'm hesitant about because if he is town, we'd loose a potentially good player; Workdawg I just can't seem to get a solid read on; you are coming off as town, but I'm still hesitant because of my previous suspicions of you, though I do have to say the
kinda-sorta-but-not-really-pushing-for-a-no-lynch
seemed a bit scummy to me; and JJ's getting replaced and she posted no real content before the thread started blowing up.

What that boils down to is I just don't know. I think at this point I'd be ok with a lynch on Cy or Blue, just because they're playing poorly and aren't really participating or posting any content at all. Between the two of them, I'd go for Blue, however. Cy at least has made SOME points, whereas Blue has just been all over the place.

Something else fun I would've enjoyed typing if I didn't already understand where you're coming from ^^

Honestly, I was never PUSHING a no-lynch. I was raising it as a possibility because I don't know how this forum typically views no-lynches and I feel like it might be better than randomly stabbing. On EpicMafia (ugh), No-Lynch was STANDARD d1, and that's AFTER Mafia have already gotten a night-kill in. So I don't know. I just don't want to see us lynch a townie.

And regarding speed-mafia, the host will probably shoot one of us. lmao But I'm down providing the wife hasn't made plans for me yet -.-

VisceraEyes · Post Post #521 (isolation #119) » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:09 pm

I'm gonna finish up here at work and I'll be back with a rock-solid-wall of analysis when I get home. Later Gators.

@Cobbler
That was regarding me...I suggested a no-lynch earlier too, shortly after I gave up and un-gave-up.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #569 (isolation #120) » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:25 pm

Wowie. Luckily Al's was the only post that was a challenge to read. Doing ISO of Workdawg now, bbiaf

VisceraEyes · Post Post #574 (isolation #121) » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:14 pm

ISO of Workdawg reveals that his most substantial posts are defending himself against Tomie. Interesting to note: Tomie is pretty much soft-attacking Workdawg's ARGUMENT, but he responds to it as if it were an all-out accusation complete with vote. Granted, her questions were leading, and she was painting his actions scummy...but she never really said she thought he was scum, and his defense is greater than any other post he's made, with the possible exception for the post where he voted me.

VisceraEyes · Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:27 pm

@Blue
I've given my thoughts on cymru several times. Please go back and read the thread if you're interested.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #625 (isolation #123) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:22 am

Okay, back everyone!

@Fonz
I play on the Team Liquid forums...I'm a SC2 nerd. There are some HARDCORE vets there, so I got to learn from the best, fast. This is literally my 2nd or 3rd game ever...just picked up some good habits I guess ^^

I agree that Workdawg appears questionable, but just so you know, I've been pushing for a blue vs cymru lynch today. My reasoning is thus: blue AND cymru have been posting in a very erratic and scummy in their own ways. Yes, it's obvious that blue is young. Yes, it's obvious that cymru is new. But that doesn't lessen the chances of either one of them being scum. But your thoughts on Workdawg intrigue me. I just did an ISO of Workdawg's contributions. They're pretty sporadic, and hit or miss, but they at least sound town. It's the intensity of his defense that rubs me the wrong way.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #626 (isolation #124) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:44 pm

I don't think it's impatience when I say that it's sad when I have to bump an active game because a [Game Over] game is on top of it. We aren't learning anything about anyone when no one posts. This is the PERFECT environment for scum to hide in.

I encourage everyone to consider the following:

1) Mafia CAN NOT hide in active conversation about who to lynch and why. If everyone is forced to give their opinions, then we are far less in the dark about who is scum the following day.

2) Mafia CAN hide in arguments between other townies. Player A says Player B is scummy. Player B loudly and spammily disagrees. Player C (who is Mafia) can: Side with A, Side with B, Side with no one, vaguely agree with both sides, call Player D out for chainsaw defending Player B, talk about the weather because everyone is talking about Players A and B...you get the idea.

3) Mafia CAN lurk all the way to the end of the game. Especially in a dead thread.

To conclude:
While I don't necessarily MIND people being able to accurately assess my motives and intentions, I'm one of the only players in town you can say this about. All that's going to happen if this trend continues is I'm going to die to either a lynch for appearing 'scummy' because I'm 'trying to lead town' or some nonsense, or I'm going to die to Mafia because in my attempts to scum-hunt, I got too close.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #657 (isolation #125) » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:33 pm

The days aren't going to get much more exciting I'm afraid, blue. They all consist of 9(-2 per day, hopefully less) people talking to each other in little boxes that don't move fast enough...regardless of who's dying or under suspicion, it's always just going to be that.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #658 (isolation #126) » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:50 pm

@Tomie
I thought you meant overall...not just at the beginning...sorry about that. He WAS pretty noncommittal at the beginning, but I feel like he's stepped up since then. Do you agree?

@Grimm
What are your initial thoughts on the newcomers? I feel like in spite of her...compulsive insistence?...on absolute clarity, Miss JJ was at least trying to get information out of people and as such, will NOT get my vote today, as Fonz or otherwise. Fonz hasn't struck me as particularly scummy either.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #668 (isolation #127) » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:13 am

Focus guys.

Okay, we have less than a week to come to a consensus on who to lynch. Clearly, no one likes the idea of not lynching. I'm fine with that. Here's my list of people I'd like to lynch, in order of most to least.

bluepokemon1234 - While being useless, he's also being disruptive. I've found his behavior scummy, but not enough for me to think he's scum. I just want him gone.
cymru96 - He hasn't voted for himself. I think given time, cymru will improve (his last vote had a reason..that's a start!)
Workdawg - Of everyone that's older than 13, I think Workdawg is appearing the MOST scummy to me...but not scummy enough to push a vote over the last two. I'd like to see more from Workdawg before I say he's scum. I say he gets at least another day.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #670 (isolation #128) » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:55 am

Okay, in the name of no longer being in the 'Not Voting' line,

VOTE: bluepokemon1234

Barring some kind of scum-claim, and unless someone can provide sufficient reason for switching, this is my final vote.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #671 (isolation #129) » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:56 am

I just realized I voted with the other two people on my lynch-list XD...c'est la vie I guess.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #675 (isolation #130) » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:13 am

I stand by my vote Grimm - and here's my reason.

After 2 weeks, we have a grand total of 27 pages...and no scum suspects. Sure, we have a few people that appear a little scummy, some vague suspicions...but as far as having a clear lynch candidate, we do not. I feel this is at least in PART because of the spam and self-voting of bluepokemon. He's taken SO much time away from scumhunting with his self-voting. And his spam serves NO town-oriented purpose. Mafia though....mafia THRIVE in that kind of environment.

Mafia's FAVORITE Things:
Dead Thread - We've been here over the last two weeks...directly after the mod warned about blue's spam.
Spammy Thread - several days in a row, we had to contend with 6-7 pages per night. SEVERAL people have commented on it.

bluepokemon is WHY we've been contending with BOTH of those things. It's true, I don't so much think he's scum...per se. But if he played ANY better, if he posted ANY more clearly...I'd be CERTAIN he's scum, for these reasons. With bluepokemon gone, we should have a decent environment to sniff out the enemies of the state.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #679 (isolation #131) » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:35 am

Grimmjow wrote:
VisceraEyes wrote:I stand by my vote Grimm - and here's my reason.

After 2 weeks, we have a grand total of 27 pages...and no scum suspects. Sure, we have a few people that appear a little scummy, some vague suspicions...but as far as having a clear lynch candidate, we do not. I feel this is at least in PART because of the spam and self-voting of bluepokemon. He's taken SO much time away from scumhunting with his self-voting. And his spam serves NO town-oriented purpose. Mafia though....mafia THRIVE in that kind of environment.

Mafia's FAVORITE Things:
Dead Thread - We've been here over the last two weeks...directly after the mod warned about blue's spam.
Spammy Thread - several days in a row, we had to contend with 6-7 pages per night. SEVERAL people have commented on it.

bluepokemon is WHY we've been contending with BOTH of those things. It's true, I don't so much think he's scum...per se. But if he played ANY better, if he posted ANY more clearly...I'd be CERTAIN he's scum, for these reasons. With bluepokemon gone, we should have a decent environment to sniff out the enemies of the state.

Sadly, I agree with this. I'm not going to vote him right now though for the reason I have stated. I feel like placing a vote on him would hinder me from putting in the effort to actually scum-hunt and just say screw it and get this day over with, and I'm not willing to do that just now.

I have a few suspicions, and I'll run through those later (I'm about to go to fill out paperwork for a new job, yay me!), and I look forward to hearing peoples' thoughts on them.

That's an excellent idea. Good luck with the new job, too!

VisceraEyes · Post Post #682 (isolation #132) » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:49 am

Wowie zowie! I don't even know where to BEGIN to respond to that, Tomie! (maybe that was the point?

)

But I'm gonna try. Let me go back and refresh on some of the earlier stuff this game and I'll be back.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #684 (isolation #133) » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:00 am

@Tomie
Re: cymru

cymru stated already that the game in question was played several months ago, and due to site remodeling, their archive of games was lost.

Perhaps you could read the ENTIRE thread before making a case against someone? Some of your points might be made invalid after reading (see cymru96), and you'll have more information.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #700 (isolation #134) » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:52 am

cymru96 wrote:where did I go? I went to bed, got up, went to school, came home, did homework, played video games, read the mafia stuff, found Tommie's essay pointless and suspicious.

I am now in a dilema. I still think Cobbler is scummy cause of the miss JJ thing but I'm not sure between Tommie and Blue.
Blue- says random stuff and votes for me stupidly.
Tommie- Much ado about nothing. (said loads that made no sense.) It looked like scum who didn't know what to do so he tried to write stuff which failed.

I shall not unvote because I think of the two, Blue is currently most suspicious of the two and if we're scumhunting t'would be a waste of a vote on cobbler coz no one would belive me.

FoS- Cobblerfone
Fos- Tommie Uzumaki

YES CYMRU YES

Keep it up my guy! On your points...

If you want to vote for Cobbler, go for it...but make a case for him! You don't know who will believe you and who won't. Especially if your case is strong. I don't find him particularly scummy, but maybe you see something I don't. That's what this is about, making your case and voting for who you find the most suspicious.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #702 (isolation #135) » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:58 am

@Tomie
After rereading the posts in question, I explained my points pretty clearly and answered Grimm's accusations accordingly. Having done so, I reread your post...it reads like you're tunneling me based on the fact that I threw up my hands, then came back and got into the game. I don't know if you've reached this part in the thread (you appear to be writing analyses as you read up to them...instead of reading the whole thread FIRST, which I HIGHLY recommend), but I explained that I'm used to a MUCH faster-paced playing style. I apologized to everyone for my little freak-out and pretty much everyone except you and Workdawg have pretty much let it go.

VisceraEyes · Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:47 am

Tomie Uzumaki wrote:Viscera:
-My point against Workdawg about him not scumhunting applies for a big part to Viscera as well. You can see it in her first posts already. She questions Grimmjow’s RV, which she later admits that she can feel he thinks his reason was valid, though she sees it as defending Workdawg. The first part means that she can see why he’s questioning Yonzy, so the conclusion she’s making doesn’t add up. Later comes Cymru mentioning he doesn’t want to appear scummy. We only get a question, which doesn’t mean anything and when looking at the opinion she gives later on, this question was strange. EDIT: The same could be said about Cymru’s ‘flip’. Wow, Big EDIT. After mentioning she can see why NewbTown-Cymru would worry about suspicions, she still wants to hear why he worried about it. Very scummy. Edit question: What would you have thought of Cymru had he kept playing the noob-card to defend himself? Next up, she mentioned that she believes active-lurking is one of the scummiest things. Instead of calling those players out, she ‘warns’ them. There was also her vote on Zihark, which comes closest to scumhunting, but got minus points there when she directs other players towards Cymru by asking other players their opinion on him. I could continue this point, but then it would become too long.
-Then comes her post full with opinions on some players. I don’t see the points against BigAl and Grimmjow. But that’s not the important bit. That comes later on as BigAl responded to her case. She never mentions it and I’m wondering why. This points gets even worse as she mentions that most points still stand against him after BigAl posted his explanations.
-One of her accusations she made was against Miss JJ, who only responded to the part aimed at her. In post 148, Viscera does exactly the same to Grimmjow. To make things worse, it’s at that time that she refers to the less active players. I can see this as an attempt to get attentiuon elsewhere, a point Cymru also has against him. And as an extra, she later does have something to say about Grimmjow’s analysis in the post in which she votes him.
Talking about the case against Grimmjow, Grimmjow explained a lot in his response to you. Even with questions. Yet, you ignored it completely by mentioning he doesn’t state why your case is bad. Which is exactly what he did.
-I think it was already clear that I didn’t like her ‘no lynch’ vote.
-And yes, I also didn’t like Viscera’s quick turn-around. First we have the vote against Grimmjow, which will be the wagon she’ll be pushing towards the end. She unvotes out of rage that nobody had responded (which isn’t quite strange due to the inactiveness which was present at that time) and then decides to stop scumhunting for the day. Eventually, she also stops with that. One thing needs to be added as mentioned before, she also fully ignored Grimmjow’s defense as she doesn’t respond to any of his points. And last, my thoughts about this gets further reinforced as she has mentioned somewhere after I replaced in that Workdawg had valid reasons to vote her. I need to find it sometimish :/

(This is up to the part where she went for the no-lynch. Perhaps now you guys understand why it's taking so long >.<)

@Tomie
All I see as 'points' against me was his insistence that I had MULTIPLE oversights/misinterpretations/exaggerations/whatever (I got to type it again! ^^) when as I saw it there was only one - the one where I said Grimm had more votes than he did. As I saw it, the fact that I 1) Mistakenly said that Yonzy (I think) voted for him (oversight), 2) Mistakenly said he had 2 votes on him (exaggeration), and 3) Explained where I got my numbers to Miss JJ (misinterpretation) was only one mistake. Grimm saw it as 3. That's what happened. Grimmjow agreed to disagree with me on that point, as it's semantics.

I wasn't scumhunting with my vote on Zihark. That should be obvious from the post in which I did it. I was pressuring him for activity, something you said I didn't do. I didn't just 'warn' people about being inactive. I placed a vote on him to get him to start posting. What I did with cymru? THAT was scumhunting. I was asking a question of town, trying to gauge what people thought of him, to use in analysis later. That's the CORE of scumhunting, so I don't even know what to say to this point. Sorry I was trying to scumhunt?

The thing about my argument with Grimmjow is that a lot of it was based on passion. I was pissed off for no one commenting on my case against him. HE was pissed off about my case against him. Tempers flared and votes were cast. Now, I DID say he didn't explain why my case was bad. At the time, I believed it. Looking back objectively, I agree that he stated his case pretty well and we were just needlessly arguing with each other.

VisceraEyes · Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:13 am

I can't stress enough how bad it is for your team to self-vote, blue. I know this has been said a lot, but as it's so important I feel okay saying it again.

Do not self-vote. Your team needs you alive. If you don't want to play, request a replacement.

UNVOTE: bluepokemon1234

I know changing my mind at this point is going to be viewed as scummy, but we need more information to divine bluepokemon's alignment and maybe his replacement will help us there. The thing is, I've seen scum self-vote before (as blue did earlier this game) when only one or two votes are on them, but I've literally NEVER seen scum put themselves 1 vote away from being lynched. I'm not saying it doesn't happen...only that I HAVE seen town put themselves on the edge.

My cymru vs blue lynch seems to have lost not only potency, but relevancy. Everyone seems to think that cymru is town and blue is new and impossible to judge, and I think I agree with both of these assessments. I'm going to go back and do an ISO of the following people: Workdawg, Tomie and bigAl. My reads before doing so are, in order of most likely to be scum to least:

Workdawg
Tomie
bigAl

VisceraEyes · Post Post #732 (isolation #138) » Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:03 pm

ISO of Workdawg reveals nothing I haven't stated before...I'm going to read his posts in context (with others') for further information.

ISO of Tomie reveals that in spite of being very guarded with her reads (she give views that can be considered committal, but not very strong ones), she's actually scumhunting in a VERY textbook fashion: asking questions of people to get information she can use, drawing conclusions based on peoples' views and pressure voting. I get a distinct green read from Tomie, in spite of her suspicions of me

.

Next up: bigAl!

VisceraEyes · Post Post #736 (isolation #139) » Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:16 pm

blue, I'm not going to ask again...if you keep promoting yourself for lynch, I'm going to the mod to request you be banned for cheating. You're game-throwing no matter what your alignment is. Either go read the thread and vote for the person you find to be the most scummy or vote for self-lynch and await your judgement. It's up to you.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #742 (isolation #140) » Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:00 pm

@Cobbler
I didn't comment on your speculation because it was....speculation? I don't really see how blue flipping scum would make me scum, so I didn't really think it warranted comment.

I am curious how you reached that conclusion though, in what way are blue and I connected?

VisceraEyes · Post Post #756 (isolation #141) » Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:50 pm

Spectacular...welcome to the game Zach. There's a LOT of uselessness in the 31 days, so it won't take as long as you think.

Thx host.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #757 (isolation #142) » Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:50 pm

EBWODP:

*31 pages

VisceraEyes · Post Post #758 (isolation #143) » Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:55 pm

Oh, and before I forget again...UNVOTE: bluepokemon1324

VisceraEyes · Post Post #764 (isolation #144) » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:41 am

Concerning bigAl:
ISO reveals mixed results. He's called out a lot due to his A)IC status, and B)obvious experience that exceeds most everyone else. As a result, he's FORCED to defend himself more than analyze, which is okay...because his analysis seem fairly spot on and logical.

So in order to foster discussion, I'm going to make a statement and I'd like bigAl, Tomie and Cobbler to respond, at the very least.

I think that Workdawg is scum. I've posted my thoughts on him myself, and I agree with a lot of the points that The Fonz makes in his case, except for the thread-padding point.

I went back and reread some of WD's interactions with everyone. While he DOES post content, the MAJORITY of his posts are defending his points to anyone who disagrees...rather than picking up and looking at someone else, he focuses. This reads scummy to me, or at least how I would play scum. This taken with his tendency to defend himself pretty powerfully when attacked...

VOTE: Workdawg

@cymru96
I'm exceedingly pleased with your attempt to make better posts. Keep it up. You dropping your tunnel for the time being is a very town decision to make, even if the timing of it is not.

VisceraEyes · Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:10 am

@Workdawg
If you feel the accusation has no merit, you can say such and be done with it. Especially if you're too busy scumhunting. So in response to your question, I feel that it depends on HOW you ignore it and HOW you defend yourself. What I was suggesting was that the MANNER in which you defended yourself was scummy, not that defending yourself alone is scummy.

Preview Edit:

You'll notice in my voting post that I drew specific attention to the fact that you DO post content. I never said it was worthless, nor did I agree that it's fluff.

@Cobbler
Well, from you I'd probably expect to see agreement or disagreement. From Tomie, I expect to see "he's attacking someone...VE is scum"

. From bigAl, I'd probably expect an ISO and then agreement or disagreement. I expect to see some sort of reaction to me placing Workdawg at L-2 as well.

I expect that most everyone is eagerly awaiting to see what Zach has to offer (I forgot about that guy, and he should be on my list of people I want to hear from on the matter.)

VisceraEyes · Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:27 am

@Workdawg
He asked me what I expected to see...while simultaneously avoiding giving me any comment on the matter...rest assured, it did NOT go unnoticed.

VisceraEyes · Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:23 am

@Cobbler
Fair enough. Your back and forth between Workdawg tells me what I need to know anyway, for the time being. As you were.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #782 (isolation #148) » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:11 pm

@Zachrulez
Not me! We were hoping you would tell us!

VisceraEyes · Post Post #814 (isolation #149) » Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:53 pm

I'm starting to get a queesy feeling about Cobbler...and I agree with most of your points on Cobbler Grimm...except the bit about buddying up with the IC. They're here for a reason, as the SEs are. Town not using them because "they can't trust them" is foolish. People should ask questions of the IC MORE often if they don't trust him, not less.

At any rate, I'm willing to put Cobbler to L-1 if everyone else is willing. Zach can reread the thread during the night phase, and if we have 5 willing voters, there's no reason we can't say piss on that record and see if we can get this game moving again.

Anyone object?

VisceraEyes · Post Post #854 (isolation #150) » Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:42 pm

Okay, I'm not going to apologize again for the meltdown I had twenty-something (exaggeration) pages ago. It was a misunderstanding, I explained myself as best I could (which I see you did NOT comment on, in spite of being VERY observant indeed...) and everyone who has BEEN in the game since then has moved past it. I understand that for lack of anything better in the thread, that's going to come back and haunt me...but here's my problem with bringing it up now. We're in the eleventh hour of d1, we have 2 strong suspects here and your first act in the game is NOT to try and figure out which of these two is the better lynch, but rather to introduce another candidate to the mix using an argument that's not only been brought up, but ANSWERED FOR in-thread. I find this highly opportunistic, and I'm certainly keeping that in mind for tomorrow (assuming I live through the night). Also, the point you make regarding me trying to end the game before you get an opinion in...you caught me. I was trying to end the day by putting the SECOND to last vote on Cobbler. Oh...no, that wouldn't have ended the day at all actually. What that would have done was open the door for whomever WANTS to end the day without you giving an opinion to DO SO. Thanks...you caught me trying to lay a scum trap...and said it was scummy. WTG. I was asking town's permission not because I'm wishywashy, but because it was a bold move and I didn't want it to be mistaken (unsuccessful, apparently) for a scum-switch.

As for being manipulative, obviously I can't answer for that because it's subjective. I certainly wasn't TRYING to manipulate Grimmjow into taking his vote off me, merely pointing out the logic behind it all. From what he was saying, he didn't feel strongly about his vote on me and I was just pointing out that there's probably a reason for that. But obviously, we're going to see what we want to see in a situation like that.

Overall, I find Zach's posts against me to be A) Subjective, B) Opportunistic and C) Intentionally distracting town.

I hope no one buys what he's selling. It smells like scum. Good for us though! Since there's a good chance we're about to hit scum with the targets we have on the docket already, that gives us a good jumping-point tomorrow! ^^

UNVOTE: Workdawg
VOTE: Cobblerfone

There...was that less scummy than asking permission first?

VisceraEyes · Post Post #890 (isolation #151) » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:50 am

Oh great, the doctor.

@Fonz
I'm gonna look for breadcrumbs too, also she might have said something that made her a target too. I'm gonna start with an ISO of her posts. From the effort she was putting into her posts, I had her pegged for VT, but clearly I was mistaken. At least I wasn't wrong about my read on her alignment. -.-

I'm more disheartened by the loss of Cobbler. In spite of how scummy he appeared toward the very end of the day, he was posting in a pretty townie fashion before then, in my opinion. It was his defense that aroused my suspicion and subsequent vote. Blast it all, deadlines!! AAARRGGHHH!! Even with three weeks, the last few days before a deadline turns up the heat to unbearable levels.

Okay, people I'd like to hear from early on today:
cymru96 - check!
Workdawg - pending
Zachrulez - pending

Zachrulez suspected me above everyone else yesterday, yet he was the deciding vote against Cobbler. I can understand hammering to avoid no-lynch, but he had most of a day still to try and convince people of my guilt...yet he hammered Cobbler. Incidentally, I don't recall him saying he was suspicious of Cobbler. That being said, I'd like to hear HIS explanation, not my own ignorant speculation.

Workdawg and cymru96 I want to hear from based on the fact that they (along with me) were Tomies TOP suspects...and she's had some pretty quality posts if you can sort through how she formatted them (honestly, I've never had to tab-switch more in my LIFE than when reading her posts -.-).

I know MY alignment. I do NOT know theirs.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #895 (isolation #152) » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:31 am

Workdawg - check!

@Workdawg
I notice you conveniently left 'sniping Power Roles' off your list of possible scum motivations, which seeing as how a power-role was killed last night, I'm highly suspicious that you neglected to mention it. Currently I'm doing an ISO of Tomie...and I'm going to DOUBLE my search for breadcrumbs. I agree with Fonz...you're not looking too good right now sir. <3

Incidentally, if anyone disagrees with my findings, PLEASE voice your concerns. Admittedly, I'm grasping here because we're in a pretty bad position minus 2 townies, one being the doc.

@cymru96
Oh boy, some more cymru96 OMGUS. I'm through telling you to post better. In fact, I'm perfectly content with the quality of your posts if I'M your number one suspect right now. Please, by all means, vote for me before ANYONE has a chance to say ANYTHING. I'm not even going to dignify it with a response...you know, aside from this one.

@Town
To everyone else, I encourage you to reread d1 and look at everything Tomie and Cobbler said from the perspective that they're absolutely trustworthy. I don't know if they were right in their reads, but at least their intentions are now clear.

Preview Edit:

Welcome back Zach! And bye too, I guess.

Surprise surprise, you vote for me again now that the dirty work is done. Splendid. For the record, I don't think anyone was 'playing chicken with the hammer' as you put it...I think everyone just wanted to get the most information they could out of the day...something you clearly weren't interested in doing. Remember me telling you about that scum-trap? It may very well have worked better than I thought your meddling had rendered possible.

Still, you have a few valid points on me, and your posts ring town to me, so as you (and apparently the MOD

) would put it...meh.

@TheFonz
Um...no, haven't heard that one. I'm sure a quick glance of the wiki could answer my question, which I can assure you I'm doing right now...but maybe you can enlighten anyone else who doesn't feel like looking it up?

VisceraEyes · Post Post #896 (isolation #153) » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:34 am

Oh, and
Zachrulez - check!

Pretty disappointing, I'll admit. Still reading through Tomie's posts. Nothing yet.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #907 (isolation #154) » Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:32 am

Zachrulez wrote:

VisceraEyes wrote:

At any rate, I'm willing to put Cobbler to L-1 if everyone else is willing. Zach can reread the thread during the night phase, and if we have 5 willing voters, there's no reason we can't say piss on that record and see if we can get this game moving again.

Anyone object?

Looks for approval, is willing to end the day before I can give input. Why eager to do this?

Without getting into a huge quote fest or a gigantic wall post, my general impression of Vicera Eyes is a player who's trying to look proactive without actually being particularly pro active. Think about it, can you recall a firm stance he's taken or indeed any stance that he hasn't slunk back from the second a player hits back when he goes after them? I saw a lot of that.

Also if you go to page 8 at post 184 and read from there, that was the ultimate crumble and backpedal. If ever there was a scum melt down, that was it. Down to the bottom of the page, well shit, those actions are going to get me lynched, I better look like I care about lynching scum again!

Vote: Viscera Eyes

Note: I quoted post 675, in paticular because the last line seems to clearly concede that Blue will flip town. (He uses the term "sniff out the enemies of the state" in plural form and in context with Blue being lynched in the past tense.)

Zachrulez wrote:
Workdawg wrote:
@Zach
- You hammered with a day left to discuss and your reason can be summed up by saying that you were tired of waiting for the day to end. It doesn't matter who was on the wagon. Your hammer doesn't seem to have any town motivation at all.

Yeah, your logic is indisputable.
I rushed a lynch that was almost certainly going to happen anyway
, and I did that by what, one day, in a game that had been running over 3 weeks?
What a hurry I must be in.

Your logic applies directly to one of your suspicions of me.

See the bold and italicized bits.

You said I was looking to end the day before you got your say in. While it's true that I was WILLING to end the day before you got your say in (please refer to the posts of your predecessor for any reason why your player-slot might have been...tainted), I was certainly in no HURRY to do so...as made evident by the THIRTY SIX pages of this game in DAY ONE. Look at the post numbers bra, that's mostly my doing. I've been in no HURRY to do ANYTHING...except to hear a response to my case against Grimmjow...which, incidentally, is the OTHER major grievance you have against me.

Yes, I was on the Cobbler wagon at the end. But I was never attempting to HIDE this fact, nor was I 'decrying' that wagon. I agreed that he looked scummy at the end of the day and at the end of the day I'm just as much to blame for his death as anyone else on his wagon. But don't misrepresent me, not now that you've shown such a willingness to be fair and honest.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #923 (isolation #155) » Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:21 am

First of all, I'm not scum, and that much should be painfully obvious...I've been trying to help town from the very beginning.

cymru, you have provided NO credible evidence that I'm even suspicious other than the fact that I voted for Cobbler. And you'll note that I was far more suspicious of Workdawg anyway. Perhaps bring something real to the table instead of baseless speculation and maybe you'll get some support.

VOTE: Workdawg

Because he was one of Tomie's main suspects, along with me (whose alignment I'm sure of already) and cymru96, whom I have no suspicion of...he's pretty obviously just noobTown. Also he was among the first to push a Cobbler wagon to begin with.

VisceraEyes · Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:20 am

@Fonz
I'm also interested to hear your reasons...you haven't really posted much in the way of suspicion of bigAl, why the sudden change of heart? bigAl has seemed pretty Town to me in the long view.

What it looks to me is more like a pressure vote since he hasn't really given much in the way of opinions today. Mostly just blah stuff. I could be misinterpreting though...

@bigAl
I'm not gonna vote for you, but I WILL ask you directly: what are your thoughts on Workdawg and myself, the two present lynch candidates (aside from yourself now, who has a vote too.)

VisceraEyes · Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:43 am

-.- Grimmjow you disappoint me.

J/K, I hope the new job is going swimmingly.

On a game-related note, I noticed something odd. Did you guys realize that Tomie signed only two of her posts with her name, and each time she did she

bolded

the m in her name? WTF is that? I mean, I can't even IMAGINE a scenario where the town doctor would try and breadcrumb their role, so it can't really be that...but seriously, did anyone else notice that?

VisceraEyes · Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:23 pm

I didn't get doc from an m...that's my point. I didn't know what it was...just found it interesting.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #951 (isolation #159) » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:18 am

1 vote for each person. This is going to be a long day. -.- Now if Workdawg could just vote for Grimmjow and bigAl vote for Zach, we'll REALLY have an interesting day going on.

VisceraEyes · Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:34 am

The Fonz wrote:
Basically, whilst VisceraEyes and Workdawg are both scummy, I don't get the feeling they're partners. Look at VE's vote for Workdawg. It's pretty scummy, because it seems like an attempt to save Viscera's own ass by jumping the most popular suspect. He will argue that he suspected Workdawg yesterday, perhaps even more then Cobbler (though why he thinks that makes his involvement with that wagon less suspicious, idk). But the important thing about this is that the way VE promotes WD as the alternative to him doesn't look like a bus to me.

The thing that kept me from voting Al yesterday was that, although he didn't seem to be doing anything that was particularly difficult for scum to fake, his suspicions did basically align with mine. Well, of those suspicions, he chose to wagon the town one over the one of unknown alignment, and today he seems to have dropped workdawg suspicion pretty much entirely for reasons I can't entirely fathom, and quietly returned to pushing the horrendously newbish Cymru along with Grimmjow. His posts as a whole kind of give me the feel that he's just filling up space and not working particularly hard on catching scum. What arguments he does make (Cymru for being illogical) don't seem like real scumhunting (being bad at logic is not scummy).

So what all that says to me is that Al is the most likely partner for
either
Workdawg or Viscera. Also, I kind of get a 'Knows VE is town' vibe from the whole 'You may know you're town' thing. At the same time, that rings slightly townish on VE for me... people who get frustrated that the town can't see that they're obvtown (in their own eyes) are usually town. It's not something the scum have the chutzpah to fake. I can recall a few times when I thought it painfully obvious I was town, and was frustrated and thrown off my game by the fact that other players didn't seem to see it.

My only grievance with your vote is that clearly you think that there's scum between Workdawg and myself, and bigAl's flip won't give you any information, by definition. You're saying that he's the most likely partner for myself or Workdawg...great. So if he flips red, we're down a mafia...but then who was his partner? You're in the same position tomorrow that you're in today. And what if he flips green? Not only were you wrong about him and we're down ANOTHER townie, but you STILL don't have any further information to help you decide between Workdawg and myself.

bigAl has been posting like a good IC which is refreshing, but game-wise, his posts have been mostly...noncommittal. But I think noncommittal in a TOWN way. He will agree with someone's suspicion in the same breath as give reasons why they could be wrong, rather than saying 'Oh, I don't know...I could be wrong but...' he says 'While I agree that X is scummy for Y reason...' or 'I disagree with you there, but...' Actually giving an opinion on things rings very Town to me, so I have a more town read on bigAl than scum read.

VisceraEyes · Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:10 am

cymru96 wrote:wow...disrespecting my country is pretty lame...

You want to know why I think your act was scummy- You come back on day two with a vote without resoning which is suspicious in itself. You would have been questioned so you decided to make a vote and then stall for time to think of a reason.

This is the second time you've been caught calling someone scummy for withholding reasoning when the circumstances surrounding the vote lend to the idea that he has reasons, but has a reason for withholding them.

I typically wait for 3 strikes, but...

UNVOTE: Workdawg

VOTE: cymru96

VisceraEyes · Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:57 am

Zachrulez wrote:
VisceraEyes wrote:1 vote for each person. This is going to be a long day. -.- Now if Workdawg could just vote for Grimmjow and bigAl vote for Zach, we'll REALLY have an interesting day going on.

Lynch please.

Yes yes, you're suspicious of me. I notice you're not doing much to further your case against me. What's the hold up? I know you're not at a loss of material...I was the only person you found suspicious in the WHOLE of day 1 and the only person you've expressed interest in lynching today.

VisceraEyes · Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:24 pm

Encouraging discussion, insinuating that we should start considering consolidating our votes, having a little laugh at the circumstances... Just trying to save this thread from the bowels of the [Game Over] threads really. Hope you're enjoying your time away! I myself am going to King's Island tomorrow! ^^

VisceraEyes · Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:49 pm

That was the idea sir...grow a sense of humor my guy. Perhaps my jest about using the [sarcasm] tag should be employed.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #967 (isolation #165) » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:04 pm

I genuinely find it scummy. Note the appeal to emotion and everything. Granted, the logic behind it is reasonable...assuming he didn't have a reason, he could have been stalling for time. But considering the tone of his posts since he replaced in, I doubt he would have posted a 1-liner vote without some sort of reason. And like I said...he pulled this out yesterday too at the beginning of the day when bigAl voted for him with no reason given. It was a similar situation too - bigAl's post left me thinking that he definitely had a reason for his vote that he was intending to share later...but cymru96 immediately voted for him stating that he didn't have a reason for voting for him. It feels like he's trying to make these guys' actions look suspicious when they aren't.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #984 (isolation #166) » Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:20 pm

Guys, I don't know. Fonz gives me pretty distinct town vibes. I ignorantly assumed his 'colloquialism' was common so didn't see it as much of a big deal, and while I'm not sure yet how much I agree with his assessment, I don't think it should be dismissed because he 'appeared' to be racist.

VisceraEyes · Post Post #998 (isolation #167) » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:19 am

I'm not, but I feel confident he'll pick up the pace with a little pressure. Your votes are well placed.

VisceraEyes · Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:00 am

I think L-1 should be reserved for people you intend to lynch...is anyone who's voting for him right now actually INTENDING to lynch bigAl? If not, the couple of votes he has now should suffice...but if you intend to lynch him, by all means, vote away.

VisceraEyes · Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:53 pm

bigAl, then back something up with a vote or a case or something. I disagree that the cymru comment makes him look more town. It reads to me like he's asking permission to put guy at L-1...which from what Zach tells me is very scummy.

If you don't like how Workdawg and Grimm are ganging up on Fonz, vote one of them guy. Get a bandwagon started. Do SOMETHING. Just sitting back and saying 'Oh, you know, not much has happened' reads super scummy to me after a 34pg d1 and 41pgs overall to go through.

I agree with your town read on Fonz, and I think that if you're not scum than it has GOT to be cymru96/Workdawg or cymru/Fonz...I'm leaning more Workdawg though because aside from being a little abrasive, Zachrulez has been posting in a pretty pro-town manner.

Say more, or you get my vote. Your experienced inactivity is starting to outweigh cy's scummy behavior. That is all.

VisceraEyes · Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:26 pm

Hmmmm....I don't agree with you there bigAl, and I don't mind saying it. Grimmjow has been playing VERY pro-town since dawn today (or middle of the day d1 if you prefer...but I think of today as a new day so...)

Do you have any analysis to back that up besides 'your bad feelings yesterday?'

VisceraEyes · Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:07 pm

/facepalm

@bigAl

1) There's a case to be made against cymru. I mean, you need LITERALLY only look at his record, as you said. The more he posts, the less sure I am that he's even a newb.
2) Fonz' methods, while effective in making his points, can be viewed as unorthodox and...well, scummy. I don't see them as scummy myself, but I can absolutely see someone else thinking so, and I'm in NO position to disagree just because I think he's town. If someone else thinks he's scum, and someone else wants to vote for him, I'm not stopping them. But I'm not voting for him.
3) Really? 186? Didn't you JUST vote for Grimm based on his 'old evidence'? Furthermore, that was an entire post dedicated to responding to MY case against Grimmjow, which you pretty much treat MOST of my points with the same lack of committal as you've been treating the WHOLE of d2. And at the end you go on to say that you TENTATIVELY support a Grimmjow lynch, in the same breath that you say 'even lynching a townie gives us more information than a no-lynch'...which reads to me like you're admitting that he's probably town, but based on my analysis you're willing to support his lynch anyway. And you're giving THAT post as an example of the reasons for your vote today.

I'm not satisfied. In fact, this most recent turn...

Al, are you really the MOST suspicious of Grimmjow? Like, in 41 pages of material, you literally refer back to the last 2 and one other post on a page in the teens somewhere as the most compelling case you can muster?

cymru is by far scummier than Grimm has turned out to be...and he even puts you at L-1 based on flimsiness. Concerned about putting him at L-1 and looking scummy? Rather put your vote somewhere safe, where it's guaranteed to not be on the wrong side of a lynch? Or is it that you don't want to risk getting rid of your scum-buddy? Not when some opportunistic fence-sitter like me could just swoop in there and hammer him down.

You're at L-1 bigAl. I suggest you claim.

VisceraEyes · Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:19 am

Workdawg wrote:Having gone back through today, I still feel that VE is a better wagon than either bigAl or cym. Since my short/basic case against him didn't really get much response, here are overall thoughts.

#1.
The flip out. This has divided thoughts, either extreme town or extreme scum. I'm of the mind that this was a scum play. He gets mad that people aren't listening to him and he gives up. I admit that this initial reaction seems more town then scum, but his immediate and complete 180 when he is called out on it SCREAMS scummy to me. It reeks of trying to earn the approval of the town after he realized he messed up bad.

#2.
He doesn't really take a firm stance against anyone. Aside from the case against Grimm early on in D1, he hasn't really stuck to a stance after facing adversity about it. He backs down to easily. This also indicates to me that he's just after the approval of the town.

#3.
The wagon switch. Up until post 804, VE had no voiced any significant suspicion of cobbler. Then in 804, "[he's] starting to get a queesy [sic] feeling about cobbler." He states he's willing to put cobbler at L-1 if everyone else is willing. (More trying to please the town). So he goes from really nothing to I'll put him at L-1 if we want? This is 5 days to the deadline, FYI. My thoughts on this are that he's trying to distance himself from the wagon, but get in on it at the same time. He'll vote if we want him to... giving him leeway to deflect blame when cobbler flips town.

Zach also speculated, and I agree, that he was doing this to try and avoid a wagon on himself. When Zach posted his thoughts and vote against VE. Grimm and I both posted that we were suspicious of VE as well. This seems to almost prompt VE to change his vote to cobbler.

On D2, when he votes back to me (post 923), he says himself that "... [he] was far more suspicious of Workdawg anyway"... if he was far more suspicious of me, then why did he switch votes with 5 days left? There was plenty of time for the wagons to shift my way if he had stuck to it, but he didn't. More evidence to indicate that his switch to cobbler was not genuine.

#4.
VE's reaction to Zach's case. Post 854. VE write's a decently long post, and most if it as attacking Zach rather than defending himself. Instead of telling Zach why he's not scum, he analyzes Zach's post and tries to make it seem like a scum move to even accuse him, deflecting.

#5.
Vote for Cymru. What's this all about? Two strikes for cyms questionable play? He elaborates more on his vote in post 967 at Zach's request, but it's still pretty weak. Just smells like he's trying to pick on the newbie. Note that he's second on the wagon too, breaking up the 4 way tie at 1 vote that he was complaining about before.

An interesting note... asking for a claim with a whole week left?

--------

So there you have it.

1) I'm an emotional player...I'm working on that, but I'm not going to apologize for it anymore. If that's appears scummy, your vote is well placed.

2) What exactly constitutes a firm stance? A big long post that everyone complains about having to read? I'm actually altering my play based on Zach's assessment of 'cases', which I agree with. I'd never thought of it that way before and I'm trying something new. I'll gladly write up a case against cymru if that's what you want, but it seems like everybody already KNOWS why I'm voting for cymru, so it seems like a waste of time to me.

3) I like how your reasoning is so that I can deflect blame if Cobbler flips town, but when Cobbler flips town, I took just as much responsibility for it as everyone else. So I guess that rules that out, huh? I noticed Zach was SHOCKED to find that I was 'decrying' that wagon, when in fact I had posted that I'm just as responsible as everyone else.

Your point about the timing of my switch to Cobbler is valid. I can't explain that other than the fact that Cobbler's posting had taken a serious dip and YOUR posting was actually improving.

4) Zach's points were ridiculous, they were just external musings of the newly replaced-in player rehashing events that, while controversial at the time, were no longer at bar. AND he voted based on them, in spite of us having a very real possibility of scum between the two candidates ALREADY ON THE TABLE. It's very anti-town to come in with a new candidate in the eleventh hour, regardless of how scummy you think he is. It adds to the risk of a No Lynch, which as far as I can tell on these forums is ABSOLUTELY TABOO. You're right, there were 5 days left. If he didn't agree that I shouldn't be a lynch candidate, he should've actually tried to convince people. But what did he do? He hammered Cobbler. Yes, I was attacking Zach. Zach's posts regarding me were mostly accurate, but A) weren't taking all the facts into account and B) were horribly timed given the circumstances. If he were just going to hammer Cobbler anyway, why not just wait until d2 to raise his points on me?

5) I've expressed several concerns about cymru96. His Appeal to Emotion was the last straw for me, but I'm in no way 'picking on the newbie.' Actually, I notice that you left off the part where I actually stated IN THREAD that I suspect cymru isn't even new. But this whole nonsense has got me thinking...

bigAl seems genuinely at a loss to who to vote for. There are two players, though, who know EXACTLY who they're going to push.

UNVOTE: cymru96

Let me offer this up as an alternative that not many are suggesting.

Workdawg + Zachrulez

Zach's posts against me seemed very WELL timed if he were trying to save someone on the present lynch docket. The only people being considered when he replaced in were Cobbler and Wordawg. Cobbler flipped town.

All of Workdawg's suspicions of me seem based on Zach's reasoning.

The most Zach has done today was call out for bigAl to participate. Hi kettle! I'm pot. Nice to meet you. YOU'RE BLACK!

VOTE: Zachrulez

Tentatively. I'm advocating a lynch of either one of these two players. If it looks like Workdawg is going to be lynched first, expect me on that wagon.

VisceraEyes · Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:15 pm

While it's true that you threw a couple of barbs my way, I wouldn't say you 'tried to get me lynched'. You didn't even 'try to get bigAl lynched'. You haven't tried to get ANYONE lynched really. Mostly just throwing out 'feeler posts' - barbs at me, prods of bigAl - which I interpret as testing to see who you WILL try and get lynched...based on popularity of the candidate. YMMV.

If you'll recall, I'M the one who 'scummily' called for bigAl's claim. Does that sound like I'm trying to save him?

VisceraEyes · Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:37 pm

Zach, he was at the time. I asked for his claim because I was preparing to hammer...as I understood, that's what calling for the claim indicates. His response made it clear to me that he's just basically at a loss...hence his inactivity and weak suspicions. This didn't make him LESS suspicious, but Workdawg's assessment that my call for claim was scummy made me rethink some things...in conjunction with basically saying that he has no suspicions of his own. But you're right about one thing. The fact alone that he's using your reasoning doesn't make you scummy, your actions d1 did. But I'm more suspicious of Workdawg, so

UNVOTE: Zachrulez

VOTE: Workdawg

When Workdawg flips red, I'm confident we can hit you up tomorrow.

VisceraEyes · Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:08 pm

bigAl wrote:Well, if you're around cy - same question as I asked Fonz: when I come up town after you guys lynch me, who do you think the scum pair is? (of course, preferably you don't lynch me.)

(I'd think that would be a useful question for everyone.)

In what way would that question be useful for everyone? Most everyone has answered that question, besides Zach that is.

VisceraEyes · Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:01 pm

This thread is dying. It's suffocating slowly and it's time to move on. We got bigAl's claim. Time to put it to the test.

UNVOTE: Workdawg

Because no one believes me and because a vote on him is a wasted vote right now. I think that bigAl is town, and I think that Workdawg and Zachrulez are scum. That being said...

VOTE: bigAl

Forgive me.

VisceraEyes · Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:47 am

Thank god.

VOTE: Fonz

Luckily, we have a

pro Jailer

. This was over until no NK. I chose Fonz because he had no noteworthy suspicion on him, and because he was eerily silent during bigAl's final posts. Because I jailed Fonz and no kill occurred, I suspect that his partner and he decided to have Fonz submit the kill because he's free of suspicion. This further leads me to believe that his partner is someone who IS under suspicion, making my suspect list Fonz and one of Workdawg, cymru, Zachrulez and myself (the wagon on bigAl), in order of my own suspicion.

Let's do this guys. Saddle up.

VisceraEyes · Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:52 am

I wasn't trying to protect you sir.

VisceraEyes · Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:15 am

Oh shit...I didn't even think of it that way. X( Then we really don't have any information then...I guess my suspicion stands on Workdawg / Zachrulez in that case.

Piss, I was sure when I saw no NK...I got all excited. Like, claim-level excited. I totally forgot that it protected the target too (I've never played with a JK before...most of the games I've played have had just doc/cop/vig style roles.)

Fuck guys, where do we go from here, wait for CC from those still missing?

VisceraEyes · Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:58 am

Mainly I was frustrated at how many times this thread has died - I mean, yes...I hammered early, but bigAl got his say in, no one was posting anything new...and at that point more than half of us were just prod-dodging. Honestly, I feel like my hammer was more PRO-town than anti-town, but obviously I'm biased.

VisceraEyes · Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:02 pm

Because when bigAl flipped town for sure, I went back and reread the thread. I noticed Fonz' relative silence during the whole bigAl defense and that got me thinking. My main suspicion was Workdawg, with you as his partner because of how adamantly you've been pushing me...but as I said before, my thoughts on you were pretty tenuous and based on your attack on me early on. Fonz came to my attention post-flip.

VisceraEyes · Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:48 pm

Oh shit, forgot...thx

UNVOTE: Fonz

Like I said, I thought the fact that there was no NK meant undeniably that I had jailed scum....so that's what the vote was about. I just forgot to remove it when we decided that I'm just herpyderpy.

Ending the day early itself is NOT pro-town. Saving the inhabitants from having to prod-dodge while everyone pussyfoots around the hammer IS pro-town...I play Mafia to play...not to sit around and NOT talk about shit. I hammered bigAl because as far as I could tell, it was a done deal. I had made my 'case' (it wasn't quite a case, but you know what I mean) against you and Zach, no one was interested, and I figured a dead-town of clueless people is far worse than an active town with one less townie but more concrete information (bigAl's alignment.) If anyone had anything further to say and wasn't saying it, I guess I apologize for 'cutting you short', but as far as I could tell it was just a matter of someone 'pulling the trigger' so-to-speak. So I pulled it.

VisceraEyes · Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:45 pm

Yeah, I understand the concept...and I've explained my actions. As much as I love a brow-beating, can we just move on and find some scum? Fonz isn't TOTALLY out of the water obviously (I jailed him for a reason), but he's absolutely right about that protecting him too...and it makes total sense for him to be the target and not someone who's under suspicion (which if you include bigAl's suspicion, includes Grimmjow too -.-)

Don't be afraid to just post anything guys - no one is going to be lynched for just being ridiculous at this point, ideally anyway, because we're basically screwed if we mislynch again...

So what, do we mass-claim at this point? Like, after Grimm gets back? If my count is correct, if we mislynch today and I fail to stop the NK, it's over right?

VisceraEyes · Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:23 am

I don't know...I've read games that were messed up because scum actually FORGOT to submit night kills...I'm pretty sure they're not compulsory.

VisceraEyes · Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:45 am

Workdawg wrote:Yeah... it's lynch or lose, unless the NK is prevented.

only this time we need to get all 4 town on board with the lynch, obviously scum won't lynch their partner... this is about as bad as it gets.

Lynch or lose...does that mean if we no-lynch we lose? Because if my calculations are correct, we could technically no-lynch and ACTUALLY be in lylo tomorrow. Is this an honest mistake or an attempt to confuse town? There are 6 of us now, if we no-lynch that would leave 5 tomorrow....correct me if I'm wrong.

VisceraEyes · Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:43 am

Grimm as I explained...I herpderped and thought that I had blocked Fonz making the night-kill. I totally spaced the thought that it could have PROTECTED him too - so I thought I had confirmed scum and we were about to win...hence the super-fast claim.

I know we're in a shitty position, but at least we have a PR to play with too. The problem is we have to HIT SCUM TODAY on the lynch, or we have to no-lynch. Those are our only two options right now, and I'm not considering no-lynching personally. If anyone wants to bring SOLID reasons why we should no-lynch to the thread, I'm willing to hear it out because we're MyLo right now...but they gotta be ROCK solid.

VisceraEyes · Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:56 am

Actually, I guess we're not in the strictest sense in mylo..because I can feasibly block the NK...but close enough to give me the heebeejeebees.

On EpicMafia, they generally let the PR lead the lynch. I would SHIT MY PANTS if that was expected of me here. I have no idea where to begin. Fonz believes in Zach and is considering Cym, Grimm and Workdawg. I suppose I'll work the other direction and look into Zach and Fonz. I believe Grimm suspects myself and Fonz and cym suspects me most as well.

Is that about where we're at at the present time?

(It's my birthday on Monday, so I may be in varying states of inebriation over the course of the next couple of days)

VisceraEyes · Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:06 pm

Grimmjow wrote:
VisceraEyes wrote:I believe Grimm suspects myself and Fonz and cym suspects me most as well.

Grimmjow wrote:I don't actually think that the Fonz is scum. I doubt he'd be so blatant as scum as to do what I suggested in 3.1. I think 3 is more likely.

Please do not try to misrepresent me as you did with JJ and the vote count on D1.

*sigh*

Dude. I'm not trying to misrep you. I missed that line in your post, and the rest of it seemed to imply that you thought that Fonz and I are a scum-team...I was just trying to get a sense of where we're at. The fact that you took that as something you needed to defend against is seriously making me doubt my read on you sir. I understand that it's tense, but we're NOT going to find scum by getting paranoid and super-defensive.

VisceraEyes · Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:50 pm

Oh, wow, I guess I'll answer the question that you either A) are too lazy to go reread the thread to find out or B) already know the answer to and are trying to subtly paint me red by asking. No, I never did claim my n1 jail target. If that was not only veiled suspicion but a request for me to do so, I jailed you Zach.

The answer to your second question to follow.

VisceraEyes · Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:23 pm

Okay, here's my problem with your questions. They're never really asking anything. They're designed specifically to be rhetorical...the answers to which are universally obvious and which taken with your given suspicion serve no purpose but to make the person you're asking look even more suspicious. It doesn't read like you're scumhunting (asking questions to get information/get people to commit to reads), it reads more like you're hell-bent on getting me lynched.

The answer to your question is yes, obviously. It's equally likely that scum attempted to NK him, because of the reasons I stated. You know why? Because I never stated my reasoning in-thread. As I stated, I wasn't really suspicious of Fonz until bigAl flipped town. To be honest, I'm still a LITTLE suspicious of Fonz, but only because of how safe he is from town. Call it paranoia. Whatever. I have no actual reason to be suspicious of Fonz, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

You, however....

This isn't the first time you've employed your 'questions' to try and paint me suspicious.

Zachrulez wrote:
VisceraEyes wrote:
cymru96 wrote:wow...disrespecting my country is pretty lame...

You want to know why I think your act was scummy- You come back on day two with a vote without resoning which is suspicious in itself. You would have been questioned so you decided to make a vote and then stall for time to think of a reason.

This is the second time you've been caught calling someone scummy for withholding reasoning when the circumstances surrounding the vote lend to the idea that he has reasons, but has a reason for withholding them.

I typically wait for 3 strikes, but...

UNVOTE: Workdawg

VOTE: cymru96

Do you think this is actually scummy or are you just going to go back and forth on which one of these two looks more likely to get lynched at any given moment?

Zachrulez wrote:
VisceraEyes wrote:
Zachrulez wrote:
VisceraEyes wrote:1 vote for each person. This is going to be a long day. -.- Now if Workdawg could just vote for Grimmjow and bigAl vote for Zach, we'll REALLY have an interesting day going on.

Lynch please.

Yes yes, you're suspicious of me. I notice you're not doing much to further your case against me. What's the hold up? I know you're not at a loss of material...I was the only person you found suspicious in the WHOLE of day 1 and the only person you've expressed interest in lynching today.

Well I'm V/LA for one, and for two, what pro-town purpose does the post I quoted serve?

Zachrulez wrote:Wait wait wait... he was ON that wagon?

After all that shit he just posted decrying the lynch?

That is, when you're not just calling me scum...

Zachrulez wrote:
cymru96 wrote:ok ok ok... I can see that you did suspect Wordawg a lot but WHY did you switch votes from Word to Cobbler then?

Well see it works out a lot better this way for him.

Zachrulez wrote:
VisceraEyes wrote:1 vote for each person. This is going to be a long day. -.- Now if Workdawg could just vote for Grimmjow and bigAl vote for Zach, we'll REALLY have an interesting day going on.

Lynch please.

And yet, your initial case is the only actual 'evidence' you have to back up your suspicion. And yet here we go again...round and round. If I've always been the most suspicious to you, let me ask you this: you voted for bigAl initially because you wanted to pressure him into activity. Then he started posting. Whatever happened to obvScum VE?

Zachrulez wrote:
Grimmjow wrote:@Workdawg: What is your opinion of Zach?
@Zach: The same question, but about Workdawg.
@Al: What is your current suspect list and why?

His VE vote looks kinda sudden and disjointed with where he seemed to be going with his back and forth with Fonz up to that point. I can't help but get the feeling he might be worried about backlash from actually voting Fonz.

It has me rethinking my read on him. (And is raising doubt on VE scum where I once felt certain.)

But right at this moment I'm still focused on the big pile of nothing coming from BigAl who continues to post just enough to continue to simply exist in the game.

Oh, he's on hiatus until we can get this "scummy" guy lynched. Please.

Even now when I'm almost CONFIRMED as JK, you're "most suspicious" of me. Why's that Zach? Am I REALLY that scummy? Or maybe I'm just the only person you can justify being suspicious of based on your posting history and voting patterns?

It stops now, one way or the other.

VOTE: Zachrulez

PS: Yeah, those questions were rhetorical and specifically designed to make you look more suspicious, before you 'ask' me about it.

VisceraEyes · Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:29 am

Also Happy Birthday to me.

VisceraEyes · Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:31 am

(Disclaimer: For the remainder of the day, no posts can be taken seriously without factoring the proportional congruency between the time of day and my level of inebriation. You have been warned.)

VisceraEyes · Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:15 am

Dude, that present SUCKS!

Have fun.

VisceraEyes · Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:43 am

I hear that going afk during tense periods is a scum-tell - any credence to that? It only really makes much sense with context imo.

VisceraEyes · Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:40 am

Nah, was just trying to clarify.

@cymru
I never said it didn't matter if we no-lynch. I said that we COULD no-lynch today because it's over if we mislynch (unless I can block the NK). Yes, there's a very high probability that I'd be the target of the night-kill...but that's a sacrifice I'd GLADLY make to earn town one more day of scumhunting...especially since with me dead, people who suspect ME the most can obviously then turn their attention to ACTUAL scum. I'd like my first game on this site to be a win, so I wouldn't mind dying if you guys end up winning. But NOT to a lynch...because then it's over and scum wins. How is that suspicious?

@Workdawg
Why would I be able to pull it off and not, say, Fonz/Zach? Clearly they're BOTH more experienced than I am, and Zach seems to be going to pretty great lengths to distance himself from Fonz. My problem is that Fonz has been actually scumhunting...while Zach has been primarily suspicious of me, until here recently. And I believe you sir, I was just inquiring as to the validity of that scum-tell...or at least others' belief in its validity.

I don't know what to think anymore. I'd like to hear Grimmjow's thoughts (even if they ARE more nonsense about me being scum

.) Even if we don't agree, his thoughts might spark something in MY mind. I'm just kinda grasping at straws here.

P-Edit:

Thank goodness! WB Grimm. ^^

VisceraEyes · Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:40 am

Prod received and acknowledged.

VisceraEyes · Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:26 pm

UNVOTE: Zachrulez

VisceraEyes · Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:31 pm

cymru96 wrote:I have returned.

Let's get scumhunting!

Yeah, that was a terrible idea cymru. And it's not scumhunting...why are you interested in causing controversy? Isn't there enough of that in the thread already? Why don't you comment on something that's already happening instead of causing even more drama in the thread? You need only read the thread to know that there's a lot going on...did you read the thread when you got back before casting your derp vote?

VisceraEyes · Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:14 pm

Okay, I'm going back over the thread keeping Occam's Razor in mind. I tried applying it to the present situation, but I can't decide which is the simplest explanation: me blocking the shot made AT Fonz or me blocking the shot that Fonz MADE. In my opinion, they're equally possible and equally likely.

The Fonz wrote:Meh. Prod dodge then. Nothing new to say right now, other than VE's gambit defence is flawed - if it doesn't involve you, it's not a gambit in the first place.

Well, I don't really consider what I posted a 'defense'...first of all, Workdawg wasn't really 'attacking' me per se...he said that he was suspicious of me and Fonz, but he didn't have much of a reason to suspect either one of us (Fonz because he's experienced and me because of a lie...that I've been avoiding suspicion for my actions...which is absolutely NOT the case.) As such, I was simply presenting alternative that utilized his BORROWED logic (experience).

I do find it interesting how Fonz read that post as more of an attack on me that I had to defend, in spite of the fact that he CLEARLY states in that post that he's more suspicious of Fonz.

Wheels are turning...I'm going out tonight, but I'll be back with a reread and another post later.