Newbie 1143 - Game Over

[lizk000]

/confirm

[lizk000]

1.

Is there any time coming up where we can expect you to not be very active?

2.

Have you familiarized yourself with Mafia Discussion and the Wiki?

3.

Have you read at least one completed game on site? yep!

4.

What is your experience level? How many games have you played? Are there any complete newbies in the house? Does everyone know how the game in general works.

1. no everything is pretty free
2. yeah, I'm trying to get a handle on it all
3. yep! i've read a few
4. I'm a complete newbie the only experience I have is live games


VOTE: ozzie

[lizk000]

ok..
a) i'm really sick right not, hopefully will be better in the next few days, so that's why I haven't been posting or online much
b) i'm not sure where everyone else is, but i'm australia, and i assume that I'm not online to stick my opinion in while you all are having these posts about me being scum or not
and c) like i said, I'm a complete newbie. I haven't been posting much because I'm not really sure yet what to say or post,

not

because i'm scum. since it's the first day and we don't have any information yet from a night, I just really don't have too much to say.
my vote for ozzie was just random, but since effortless is trying to get everyone else to attack me...
UNVOTE: ozzie
VOTE: effortless

[lizk000]

You don't know exactly why I voted lizk. You have a vague idea, but no more. So no, 3 people have not done the same thing I'm voting lizk for.

As multiple other people have already pointed out, when you first voted for me, saldyn and ozzie had done pretty much the exact same thing as I had done. So when you say that other people don't know exactly why you voted me, that they only have a vague idea, how is it possible that you have anything more that a vague idea either? There is nothing more than just ideas at this point of the game, so what is the point of acting on one of those ideas so strongly while you leave other ideas (such as the other people who were quiet) ignored.

effortless: "No, the difference, isn't counted in number of lines. lizk's post fits perfectly to someone who's actively trying to avoid attention.
I just didn't get the same vibe from ozzie or saldyn." (sorry! i haven't figured out how to put multiple quotes in one post )

You didn't get the same

vibe??

what's that supposed to mean? Did i not use enough smiley faces or punctuation or something else?

I agree with what saldyn previously posted about effortless defending gen and attacking me so hard looking slightly scummy.
and also,
while I appreciate tomith's defense, the amount that tomith and effortless have been directly arguing with each other, and almost only each other, makes me wonder if they are purposefully trying to separate themselves from one another..?

My last bit of opinion for the moment was that it was really interesting to me how tomith had been defending me (or at least disagreeing with effortless's reasoning) for quite a few posts, but the second that someone put a little bit of pressure on him he automatically switched not to attacking me, but definitely stopped defending me. why the sudden switch?

[lizk000]

I admit lying was

a stupid thing to do

but it worked to get some pressure on, if you want to lynch me on it then i question your motives for lynching me on one

mistake

.

@Tomith- so you admit that this was a stupid thing to do, and a mistake.. which almost sounds like something a newb would me (me for instance, hopefully not though!), but you've stated that you have had multiple games of experience on this and other sites. So why the slip up?

Also you would be suprised how many of the "smallest things" are usually what scum do.

This seems like it could be one of those "small things"

As already pointed out, my vote on effortless was OMGUS, I can kind of understand (although don't agree with) his reasoning for a vote on me, since I was fairly quiet (really trying to work on it though!) anyways, UNVOTE: effortless

At this point tomith is the most suspicious to me as well, but I'm not ready to vote yet

[lizk000]

sorry for being so uniformed but what does sheep mean?

[lizk000]

As interested as I am to hear more from hazard, at this moment, from his posts, I don't find him all that scummy. Other than his lurki-ness, what else are people seeing as super scummy about him? it seems to me that it's mainly his "lynch all liars" attitude, which i honestly don't have a huge problem with. can those voting for him explain their reasoning a bit more to me please.

ah, i don't know. this is hard! I'm having a hard time reading people and trying to pick out scummy behavior, although i still having a feeling in my gut about tomith and effortless. but i need to think about it all more and read posts again

[lizk000]

@genwolf: do you think travis is scummy because he is lurking? or are there other reasons?

[lizk000]

As interested as I am to hear more from hazard, at this moment, from his posts, I don't find him all that scummy. Other than his lurki-ness, what else are people seeing as super scummy about him? it seems to me that it's mainly his "lynch all liars" attitude, which i honestly don't have a huge problem with. can those voting for him explain their reasoning a bit more to me please.

i think him being L1 is not good for the town, seeing as how i don'd find him too scummy. i'm still waiting for that other reasoning...

[lizk000]

@Effortless: I'm usually on the run or on the go so I don't have time to post.

If you said: "I was on my phone and didn't have time to write a reply." I might even have believed you. Instead you give these generalizing answers, that technically aren't untrue but probably don't describe what happened.

I think you read the thread, realized it wasn't going the way you wanted and decided that the best course of action was to let the whole thing blow over.

Also, a quicklynch on page 7 is bad for town. We'll have much less time for discussion.

I'm quite confident this quicklynch would be good for the town

Anyway, the extra time only helps if we actually use it for discussion.

@effortless: what exactly is the point of this with hazard? First off you make an attack on him which is pretty weak. You're saying he's scummy because you don't like the way he replied about how he checks the thread, and/or that you don't believe he was actually on his phone. But then you don't actually do anything about it. No vote, no FoS, nothing. I'm just confused about the reason for this "attack" on hazard.

[lizk000]

Yeah, still to me you guys seem the most like scum. For effortless I thought his original accusations and such "focused" attacking of me were anti-town, along with the note in my previous post (such a weak accusation with no action) .Also, I am weary of you because I feel that you contradict yourself too much. You say things such as

Also you would be suprised how many of the "smallest things" are usually what scum do.

but then you also say that lynching you for your one mistake would be so such a bad idea.When you were the one to say that we needed to pay attention to such those kinds of mistakes.
You put such pressure on effortless with the vote and the "i want to lynch you" quote, saying that it is necessary to really put pressure on someone if you want to get real results, but ever since then you have been accusing a lot of people and jumping all other the place, not putting any real intense pressure on anyone. I just feel that your play style has been very sporadic. and actually thinking about it more now makes me believe it that much more, VOTE: tomith

[lizk000]

@effortless: ok yeah sorry I didn't see that you had already voted him. I was just looking at the vote count and missed your unvote post a couple of posts before

[lizk000]

There is a big difference between your claimed mistake of lying about who you want to lynch, and my mistake of overlooking one, one-word post. Also, I'm not saying that putting pressure of someone is scummy, at no point did I say that. I said it was scummy how you made such a fuss about how you think the right way to pressure someone is, but immediately following you completely switch your methods of the pressuring.

[lizk000]

Oh another mistake. I got it. Yeah, I feel that it is scummy.

[lizk000]

Obviously it depends on the specific mistake, but I think it's a great place for scumhunting

[lizk000]

VOTE: lizk
lizk instantly said "thomith and effortless are distancing from each other" and then even after 10 pages nothing has changed her thought of that, i think this is scum trying to setup lynches as she has seemingly only focused on us, she then says "oh you say you have completed games but you made a mistake which only newbs do" is just bleh, SE's and IC's make mistakes too, we are constantly learning like you and i don't understand how some newbies think we should be perfect.

She then seemingly goes on to sheep Hazard which i didn't find scummy at first because i had a feeling she would stop but she has seemingly continued to sheep Hazard, i think at least one of Hazard/lizk is scum, however i am thinking only one of them are, likely the latter.

By me "sheeping" hazard do you mean that I am getting on the bandwagon for him or are you implying that I am following whatever he is doing?? because I specifically said that I didn't think he was that scummy (so I didn't get on his bandwagon), and also, like you previously stated, I have been thinking it is you and effortless (although mostly you) for quite a while, so it couldn't be that I am following whatever he is doing. I am just really confused by your statement.

And the fact that "even after 10 pages nothing has changed her thought" isn't because I've just stopped paying attention and am blindly accusing you two (again, mostly you, less effortless), it is because throughout these 10 pages you

continue

to look scummy (b/c of reasons previously posted).

Also, as we have been over a couple times before, those mistakes you made were big ones. I don't think that SE's and IC's should be perfect. But I do think that the specific mistakes that you have made read pretty scummy.

Lastly, I think this vote on me is pretty OMGUS. You have been jumping from person to person without spending any real time or significant effort on anyone. IMO your recent methods have just felt like false scumhunting.

[lizk000]

I need to put my vote somewhere atm i'll switch it.

this seems scummy to me as well. like tomith said,

why

do you feel like you have to vote?

[lizk000]

First off, you didn't answer my question about how I was "sheeping" hazard. Second off, you are totally scum! Ignoring RVS

you have changed your vote 7 times!

I don't understand how you could feasibly be doing this and being town while originally you made such a big deal about how important it was to put real, intense pressure on one specific person. You have been trying so hard to look like you are scumhunting by covering your bases and going around and accusing just about every single person, but in reality you're just trying to appear as pro-town. Which if you were being truthfully, you would have actually pursued some of those accusations more thoroughly, instead of making weak cases and then moving on.
I encourage the rest of us townies to vote for tomith. he is scum, and needs to be lynched!

[lizk000]

the above post was for tomith btw...

[lizk000]

I was the first person to post about suspecting you, not hazard. It was me, and then gen, and then hazard. He may have voted first, but I suspected you first, and I didn't do it without explanation. Regardless, I don't think that agreeing with other's logic periodically is necessarily a bad thing. Why should that be punished? And other than the comment about daybid, when have I accused someone w/o giving my own logic to back it up.
Yes, you have posted more than me, but you haven't been around for more of the game than me; you don't have more information than me; our time spent here has been the same, so I still think your vote hopping is very suspicious!
You say that you focus on everyone and not just a few people, which is great and dandy, but the problem that I have with it is the fact that at the beginning of the game that was the exact opposite of what you were doing and what you said you thought was a good strategy.
You're scum. lynch tomith, he'll flip scum, and we can find the other one tomorrow

[lizk000]

works for me

[lizk000]

avatar, yay!

[lizk000]

"I suspected you without reason when I did"??? Take a quick peak back at post 97, the first time I suspected you.....(wait for it, wait for it).... with reason

[lizk000]

and just keep going ahead and calling me a sheep. Your one attack on me. Which you previously stated was not a scumtell. go ahead though

You say we were bussing each other now think for a second do you really think scum would give themselves away so quickly?

Maybe, maybe not. Probably not, which is why I'm not really going after effortless right now. I do however think it's likely that one scum could mess up so quickly (which you did).

Also, sorry about the three posts in a row! I'm too scatterbrained to think of everything at once!

[lizk000]

Regardless, I don't think that agreeing with other's logic periodically is necessarily a bad thing. Why should that be punished? And other than the comment about daybid, when have I accused someone w/o giving my own logic to back it up?

???

[lizk000]

yes, I have since understood the definition of sheeping. but I asked about when I had done it. Can you point any specific examples of when I was suspicious of or voted for someone without adding anything of my own (other than with daybid).
I didn't answer your question because it is irrelevant. You won't flip town

[lizk000]

OK, forgetting for a second that you are being completely hypocritical because you are also avoiding questions, and being wildly hypothetical and saying that you are town, then my vote for day 2 would depend completely on how the rest of day 1 goes and the nk and the beginning of day 2. At this particular point, no, I wouldn't automatically vote effortless regardless of what you flipped.

[lizk000]

At this point tomith is the most suspicious to me as well, but I'm not ready to vote yet

You say i am the most suspicious to you but don't add any points as to why.

at this point I had already listed why I thought you were suspicious

[lizk000]

@ effortless: i'm a bit confused about who you're talking to, or the points you are trying to get across, but I would assume it's just because it's super late and I am about to pass the point of incoherence

@tomith: I feel like we have gotten quite a bit of good stuff out tonight (like that you are scum!) but seriously, it's been a good talk. I'm interested to hear some more opinions. For now, I'm off to bed though.

[lizk000]

but she is saying i can only be scum and effortless can only be town.
Also if we don't lynch lizk or hazard today

i will take the lynch

as it means it is likely that one of lizk/hazard is scum and giving you guys information from my flip, although that is the worse case situation that hopefully doesn't have to happen.

Yes, initially, my first suspicions arose from the thought that you two looked like a scum team. But, since you are apparently so good at completely ignoring what I actually post, I said that you two were now individual cases. That you need to be today's lynch, and then effortless would be evaluated separately tomorrow (not necessarily with any relation to you, but most likely just to be analyzed as pro/anti town).

Also, again you contradict yourself:

This is bad logic above, you are wanting me to just give up and get lynched? This is never how i play and never how anyone should play no matter what allignment they are,

Do you always just forget what you say earlier in the games? Or do you expect us to? Either way, you don't seem to have actually followed through with any of your playing styles or methods.

[lizk000]

I was the first person to post about suspecting you, not hazard. It was me, and then gen, and then hazard. He may have voted first, but I suspected you first, and I didn't do it without explanation. Regardless, I don't think that agreeing with other's logic periodically is necessarily a bad thing. Why should that be punished? And other than the comment about daybid, when have I accused someone w/o giving my own logic to back it up.
Yes, you have posted more than me, but you haven't been around for more of the game than me; you don't have more information than me; our time spent here has been the same, so I still think your vote hopping is very suspicious!
You say that you focus on everyone and not just a few people, which is great and dandy, but the problem that I have with it is the fact that at the beginning of the game that was the exact opposite of what you were doing and what you said you thought was a good strategy.
You're scum. lynch tomith, he'll flip scum, and we can find the other one tomorrow

And what happens if we lynch Thomith and he flips Town? You're next, you know.

I'm okay with that, although I

highly

doubt he will, so I'm not worried.

[lizk000]

Okay, so why don't you explain to me why you have been contradicting yourself so much? Or do you not think that you have been?

[lizk000]

So as previously posted I really think a Thomith lynch is the best thing for today! What are others opinions?? Anyone else want to weigh in? ...
... Bueller....bueller...??

[lizk000]

In the first post I wasn't trying to infer your mistake as a small one, I was showing that you said that even a small mistake could be a scum tell, therefore a large one must obviously be one as well.

[lizk000]

vote:TravisB

Just inflating my postcount. Also, if Travis is town it would make him the third best person to lynch, so I'm comfortable having my vote on him while I think things through.

I'm a little confused about this. I figured since there wasn't any real reason here for why you voted for travis you must have already talked about why you were suspicious of him earlier. But after looking back through your posts I couldn't really find anything, other than you talking about him lurking. I did go through them pretty quickly though so please tell me if I missed it. If not could you please explain this vote to me. I'm also confused because in the previous post (or a recently previous post, I can't remember exactly) you talked about how tomith was making you angry by not properly responding to questions. Doesn't that seem more scummy to you than travis's lurking (you defended haylen for lurking so you must not have to big of a problem with it). At this moment why do you find travis more likely scum than tomith?

[lizk000]

@ozzie: Are you just voting for me because you think tomith is town so you will vote for whoever he is voting for? Or are there specific points that I have brought up that you disagree with and/or find scummy?

[lizk000]

It's not a big of deal at all but aren't you just the second vote on travis?

[lizk000]

did I miss a vote?

[lizk000]

@daybid: you haven't picked up on anything even after 13 pages?

@gen: how is effortless trying to start a bandwagon on tomith? He voted for travis. I'm the one trying a get a bandwagon going on tomith (which not enough of you are getting aboard on).

[lizk000]

ahhh I can't even stand this. Tomith, just like effortless (and I think a couple other people) have said, you ignore so so much. Whenever there is a question or a point brought up against you you just act like it did not happen. I can't stand it. Please someone hammer him. He deserves it. He has been at L1 for a while now (at least a few hours that he has been actively posting) and has not said anything worthwhile. He deserves it! If anyone else has any other valuable point or question to bring up to him

please do

, but if not, let's lynch him!!!!!

[lizk000]

also,

ozzie

I am still waiting to hear from you about the question previously posted

[lizk000]

Is it monday yet?

[lizk000]

I am being pushy, you've lived long enough.

[lizk000]

Okay, so I obviously messed up big big big time. I know I said on a couple of different occasions that it could be me next if Tomith was town, soooo... I guess I understand if that is what happens next, since I definitely made a huge mistake.

Well in the mean time, I'm glad no one else got killed last night! That means we definitely either have a doctor or a jail keeper, right?

[lizk000]

I highly highly highly doubt scum did not try to kill. How would it be an advantage for them, especially on the first night? Also, I feel like this kind of speculation is not the kind to give scum hints, unless they are seriously idiotic, and can't figure out that for themselves.

[lizk000]

shit...

@effotless: yeah.. this was in no way a scum slip. Speaking hypothetically, let's say hazard was scum, and he forgot to send in a night kill (or he sent one in but was blocked), do you think that he would realize it and then post "shit" on the main thread before he even knew what he was doing. That makes no sense at all.

[lizk000]

Wolf: I was really only pushing Hazard and Thomith. I think there were good reasons for both although in retrospect I should have realized that I was annoyed with Thomith and was trying to rationalize lynching him.

Maybe I am pushing too hard sometimes. But the way I see it, is that if the rest of the town is active we can have a discussion and exchange ideas. If they're not, I'd rather push my uninformed opinions than let the scum do the same.

@ effotless: you were only pushing hazard and tomith...? so what about all that time you and tomith were fighting about me? You seemed to be pushing me as scum pretty darn hard at that time. what happened to that?

Anyways, I obviously agree with the second paragraph of your quote that I posted. We all need to discuss, a lot. I'm not sure what the next step should be.. maybe we should all give the reads we have so far??

[lizk000]

welcome Thor and Lunita!

I have to read through this page and respond, but I have a couple huge assignments due tomorrow so I'm super busy at the moment. Hopefully tonight I can get back on

[lizk000]

Since the start of day 2 the most significant thing that has stood out to me has been the gen/haylen interaction. Haylen makes one little comment, just trying to start an honest discussion about genwolf, and he goes crazy! Gen gets super defensive and attacks haylen back as fast as he can. Especially when he claims that the only reason haylen can be suspecting him is if she is scum since everyone else thinks he is town (who exactly was that, again?). This quote specifically struck me as curious:

Logic wasn't mentioned first time round, and lets see the logic! I don't think i'm overreacting, just answering your questions... enthusiastically!
What are your thoughts on Effortless while we are at it?

To me this seems like gen going, "oh shit, I am really overreacting, let's change the subject, quick!"

[lizk000]

@thor: were those questions in post 436 directed at me?

[lizk000]

@Lunita - lizk is such obvious town it hurts. What newbie town comes out to another town with "yeah, if you're not scum feel free to lynch me next!" Seriously now, that's a giant flaming wall of town tell right there.

Starting with Lizk...

Maybe that read is right, but the alternate read I'd love to have you pick apart is...

She is scum. She saw that the Tomith was close to being lynched, and she wanted to seal the deal before focus shifted elsewhere to prevent her or her scum buddy from being the chosen target of the day. So she took an all-knowing stance and said, "I know I'm right, I bet my life on it!" because she wanted anyone who was on the fence to be attracted to the certainty and vote with her. It worked and he got lynched.

Isn't it possible newbie scum would be so excited at being close to a lynch that they would make the error of stating more knowledge than they can possibly have as town (because at Day 1 no town knows anything other than that they themselves are town)?

Also, it was a pretty empty promise as it turns out as no one but me even held her feet to the fire for it, and I'm currently humoring you, so not even me... So maybe at best it's a null read not flaming town sign because if town can get away with that statement, so can scum, so the statement loses meaning...

@Thor If you would also answer please: What do you think about her first post of Day 2?

Well in the mean time, I'm glad no one else got killed last night! That means we definitely either have a doctor or a jail keeper, right?

First off, during day 1, when I first accused Tomith, he was no where close to being lynched. That move was not me jumping on the bandwagon, I started that. Although I wasn't the first one to vote, I was definitely the first one to voice a suspicion of him (maybe something was done way way earlier, but not relating to why he got lynched).

To your second point; this just doesn't make sense to me. Hypothetically, if I was scum, me calling tomith, a townie, scum would not be an error of stating more knowledge than I would have had if I was town. Sorry, that sentence doesn't sound very coherent, but I don't really know how else to put it.

And about my quote at the end: When I posted this, I didn't know discussing power roles in this specific way was such taboo land. Another huge mumbo-jumbo newbie fail (as Thor would probably put it).


Ah, I know I need to post more about other people and what not, but right now I really have to go do some work. I'm planning on getting on later tonight though!

[lizk000]

To your second point; this just doesn't make sense to me. Hypothetically, if I was scum, me calling tomith, a townie, scum would not be an error of stating more knowledge than I would have had if I was town. Sorry, that sentence doesn't sound very coherent, but I don't really know how else to put it.

@Lizk Scum have absolute knowledge on who is scum and who is town. Unlike town who only know that they are town and have no clue what alignment the other people are. As a result, scum are operating from a position of certainty and knowledge, and town are operating from a position of odds/hunches/feels.

So when I questioned your saying, "Thomith is definitely scum," my point was that your post was speaking from a place of certainty -- that's what I was keying in on... not on the lie itself. My thought is that town at this point would not make so certain a declaration but rather a "I really, really think Thomith is scum." Make sense now?

Ok, fair enough, this makes a lot more sense. I guess I just said that in such a way because I really really thought he was scum, I just got a bit too excited.


This is probably because most people aren't posting much, but right now Gen is sticking out the most too me. This is because of the reasons I was talking about earlier, and also I don't feel like you have been answering your questions particularly well lately. The pressure got even heavier on you, and then you just said, "i don't like to have to defend myself, so I am going to stop and instead ask other people questions." After Day 1's mishap, I completely understand analyzing every possible suspect, but it's not okay just for you to be like, I'm done answering questions.

[lizk000]

I think everyone has made some pretty damn good reasons for lynching Gen. I'm ready to hammer, so how about sunday (my sunday, here it's friday afternoon). That gives time for any huge complaints or final words.