Newbie #315 - Trouble in New New Jersey (Game Over!)

[Dr. Doom]

Confirmed!

[Dr. Doom]

Hm... - Im not sure who to vote on - Of course

I[/I] know that

I

am innocent...

(I will probably not able to post or look at this thread from Friday morning to Sunday evening (GMT) - sorry about that)

[Dr. Doom]

Edit by post:
Hm... - Im not sure who to vote on - Of course

I

know that

I

am innocent...

Oh, and Hello Everyone!

[Dr. Doom]

Vote: Vulcanraven

because he voted for me (and I dont have anything else...)

[Dr. Doom]

If Hemisphere Dancer (who has not said anything yet besides confirmation) also votes for me, it stands to reason that the two summies just waited until some poor sucker got two votes (and made himself suspicious through other means) and then just bandwagon him to be burned at the stake...

therefore:

unvote: Vulcanraven

and

Vote: Hemisphere Dancer

[Dr. Doom]

Dr. Doom, not sure if you realised, but you are only on 2 votes at the moment: M4yhem has put an FOS (finger of suspicion) on you but not a vote. I'm going to do the same

FOS: Dr. Doom

- for over emphasis of your innocence.

Oh... hehehe...

[Dr. Doom]

I was confused about the number of people who had already voted for me - It seemed like the perfect Mafia-scenario: Someone makes a mistake (me, in this case), gets two votes from townspeople and the two Mafias just tag along, sealing the fate of the hapless guy. One other townie done with during the night, and on teh next day, its two mafias vs. three townies - if one townie gets just one vote, bandwagon him to death again and the mafia wins with their nightkill.

All in all: Quick lynches hurt the town.

If you, Hemisphere dancer, would have chimed in right after ac1983fan had voted for me,

AND

if I had been able to count right (up to four, that is), Imho the case against you and AC1983fan would have been quite good (since you could very easily have been two mafiosi planning the thing I outlined above).

But I blundered, so its anyones guess again (although the possibility that one of the peolple that has voted for me is actually scum is quite high, imho).

So:

unvote Hemisphere Dancer

.

(CHnaging your vote often counts as ascummy sign and leads to lynching, right? Damm...).

[I played Mafia in its werewolf-incarnation a few times in reallife, and there everyone was very quick with their votes and even quicker about chnaging them - there, Fos and vote was nearly equivalent.]

[Dr. Doom]

The semiclaim:
Well, It occured to me that its a given that everxone says that he is a townie (regardless of role), so instead of claiming, it was more about obscuring my role, plus that I wanted to get the Ball rolling. Oh, well...

Why I did not shoot bnack: Well, a) I was away this weekend (so i could not say anything) and b) what do I really have? I could attack and analyze people, and try to make an argument (which I will surely do, but I'm too tired at the moment) who the scummys probably are imho, but these arguments (unless they are really good) could bnot convince someone who has voted for me. And thay could not have been strong enough yet, simply because there was not enough material given.


Hm, Maybwe I need some time to adapt to the different Timeframe - In reallive, everythings a lot quicker and there is much more reading of Bodylanguage and such. Plus, we never, ever claimed (except Townie, which was a given), so that concept is pretty new to me (plus the thing that there might be roles present noone is aware of, or Cops with differing sanitys).

[Dr. Doom]

oh, and

unvote

whoever I was voting for...

[Dr. Doom]

Dr Doom- I don't think you answered my question: 'How did you expect voting for Hemi to stop her from voting for you, had she been scum?'
Well, I could not really stop Hemis vote whatever I do, except for accusing her of scumminess if she votes. And, as I explained earlier, in reallife MAfia (well, the rounds where I played, at leasdt), FoS = Vote, so my vote should have been: "Finger of Suspicion under the circumstance that she votes for me", but it was faulty anyway, since i did not count the votes due to nervousness. phew...

[Dr. Doom]

Let us see, where to start. First of I don't wan t to claim because fi I make a claim that is possibly true, and you guys don't believe me that leaves a window open where the scum and come up with a better claim and possibly trick you guys into believing that a scum is a power role.

He does not say that he has a power-role, only that he

might

have one, and if he has one, that it could potentially harm us more that it ciould help us. Otoh, the potential harm is only based on teh fact that if he claims powerrole, that someone could counterclaim. He implies that the counter-claimer would be scum and could trick us into believing the scum-position,

but what if blahgo is scum

and the counter-claim is true? Well, there is one way to test it: Claim, and we wont lynch you, and see if you survive... (But Im against that, since the mafia can easily adapt and could potentially get two townie-lynches for free, which is all they need to win, so DO NOT claim! [unless there is some benefit I disd not saw..])

My vote is where it is now because of Dr. Doom's townie claim.

Umm... Didn't you practically just did the same? Every one acts like they are pro-town, because no-one wants to get lynched. If one would say: "I am scum!", what good would it do?

I'm am all for a Dr.Doom lynch but not until we uncover some more info.

Why again exactly? I mean, what more info? Why do you want to lynch me in the first place? To everyone else: Not that Im teh only one (besides blahgo) who is in any real danger, and half of that danger is constituted by blahgo, so Im the likeliest target of a try to lynch me (at the moment)

If I still find Doom scummy at page six I'm really going to start pressuring for his lynch. Any questions?

Yeah. Why?

And Riktus I'm starting to think that you're scum for defending Doom.

And Blahgo, Im really starting to think that you are scum for attacking me for no good reason (you have a reason, but its a bad one) and (in order to distract fire from yourself) start attacking other people. Riktus is not teh only one who is defending me, so (if I were scum) my mate would not have to do it. Plus, Im not in any Danger, so I would not need any defense, so if riktus would be my partner in crime, he would do better and hide instead of drawing fire.

But all in all, Im not really sure if you are scum - Im a little bit suspicious, but its mostly gut-feeling, and Im not sure if that only comes because you want to lynch me.

On the other hand, Im sure that one (or two) of the people that are voting now are scum, because they of all people have an interest in bandwagoning someone to death.

[Dr. Doom]

Okay, more lists:

blahgo: Im not sure about him. Keeps voting for me, and said that if there wouldnt be more info availible by page 6, that he would try to press on a Doom-lynch. Hm. Not really sensible, wether you are town or not, except that he might hope that the town follows the "omg, overstating his innocence, so hes scum" argument. Hm.

Hemi: Im sure you are town, or a really good Scumplayer who deserves the win then. You putting pressure on ac now seemed a bit strange to me, but otoh you opposed putting pressure on blahgo back on page 2, so I dont think you are scum.

Dr. Doom: Town, no doubt about it (oh my god, Im SO getting lynched for that, I dont even know why I post it)
No, really, the only scumtell would be me overstating my innocence. Hardly a solid case, right?

ac1983fan: Hm. Oh, well, maybe hes hiding, to not give him away, or he just does not have the time or he underestimated the effort taht needs to go into this game - or he is just new at argumenting, so he needs some more time to think his stuff through (and maybe does not trust himself enough to just post it). I dunno, pressure on him seems wrong, especialyl as there are better targets (because if he is not scum, were in Lynch or lose tomorrow).

Vulcanraven: Hm. Nothing suspicious, although more material to work with would be nice. Please, respond to M4yhems argumenst/points/whatever, so thwere is more stuff from you...

M4yhem: Hm. Upon rereading your posts: I did not start the game with a vote because it was not necessary: there were enough randomvoters, and I had another method of getting everything started (okay, it put me in the Crosshair of a lot of people, but we still got ssomething from it)..
There is nothing suspicious in your posts or votes, it all seems quite okay to me, although I find this strange:

I'm usually wrong, so the people who agree with me are usually scum. IGMIOY, Riktus.

Care to explain?
And as always: More posts would be nice, of course

riktus:

So Vote:Riktus because he's dangerous.

You knows it

Okay, if you two are scum, and you toldus on page one and STILL folled us all, you deserve the win. But I dont think thats the case. Post more, please - there is really not much from you except some strange interaction with 4yhem and voting for blahgo for voting someone third on page 1).

[Dr. Doom]

please, ask me some questions!

Are you scum?

1. Stating your innocence again as a joke, but then making the point seriously. ("No, really, the only scumtell would be me overstating my innocence. Hardly a solid case, right?") I am innocent isn't really a solid case for your defense, and you keeping coming back to it is not going to sit well.

My defense is not "Im innocent" - that would be no defense, because (if I were innocent, it would rely on information only I have (my role PM). If I were scum, you could not tell the difference and I could not come up with evidence. But my defence is "there is no case". people here often said that stating ones innocensce is aa scumtell - how so? If it is, then it would be the perfect play for scum: announce innocence,get nearly lyncherd, claim some role (or vanilla), then be a confirmed townie in most peoples eyes (cops nonwithstanding, of course). So why is it a scumtell in the first place, if all it does is help scum seem perfectly and confirmed innocent? I dont get it...

2. Reaction to comments by M4yhem - started off well with 'no random voting as there were enough already', which I would generally have found fair enough, although when I look back there were only 2 random votes before you posted. Then you mention you had another method of getting things started - do you mean you you said you knew you were innocent to start some discussion?

Hum, from what I got from reading other games at tji ssite, games start more or less themselves, because there are nearly always people who will random vote. And, yes, stating that I know that I'm innocent was just there to start some discussion, and to set up that atmosphere of paranoia this game needs (at least for me), since everyone could be scum.

Perhaps, but I didn't get that impression at the time, and if that is the case it jars with my perception of your playing style as 'new'.

Erm, I never, ever played Mafia online before. All I have under my belt is some reading of the wiki, some other games from this site and some reallife Werewolf-playing (most of the time with about 7 people - yes, games are short then, but highly addictive and fun). Oh, and some reallife RPG-gaming

3. Analysis of M4yhem - Explicitly stating 'there is nothing scummy in your posts or votes' seems strange to me. Even qualified with 'it all seems quite okay to me' - do you not find his call for a third vote on blahgo in the slightest not okay?

Missed that opne. Hm,. lets reread. Hm. Yeah, its dangerous, but whoever would have quicklynched blahgo then would be dead (if blahgo were a tzownie) teh next day, and m4yhem would be target number two. quick-bandwagoning to death is too risky for the mafia - the last one to vote for someone and teh perdon before that are very likely to get lynched thwe next few days, so much that even athough it sets up a lynch or loose situation is not worth it (imho). So I say: Reckless, but not really scummy.

[Dr. Doom]

I agree with teh people who said that M4yhem looks scummy, from Gutfeeling and their reasoning. I started posting my last long post before he did, so I did not notice what he said + the way he immediately reinforces my argument (well, that alone would not be enough, but in combination with the other stuff), plus the fact that my line of reasoning (no scum would cast vote number three because it makes them a target) is faulty due to the reasons that VulcanRavenpointed out.
A possible Scumplay would look like this: get some person to two votes short of lynch, ask for pressure, some townie casts the third vote, the other scummer hammers him to death. Of course, the hammerer will get lynched, and very possibly the person who voted third also. By that time, there have been 6 deaths, five of them town and only one mafia. Then, the mafia has won.

So:

Vote:M4yhem

[Dr. Doom]

me=stupid. Didn't notice that my vote is the third, so

Unvote

.

Damm Kids and their newfangled counting up to three, in my age two was miore than enough... grumble...

[Dr. Doom]

I missed the other votes because I just overlooked them.

@m4yhem: Yes, that tactic would put you under scrutinity, but as long as there two other people that get lynched before you (even if one of them is a mafiosi), the mafia would have won (day 1 lynch: a townie, night one kill a townie, day 2 lynch a mafia (the guy who voted fourth), night two kill a townie, day 3 mafia wins (6 out of seven dead, with the only survivor being a mafiosi).

I'd say its orth the risk.

[Dr. Doom]

It's very important that you make sure it doesn't happen again. Last thing we need is you hammering someone by accident.

I agree 100% - that was quite stupid of me, but luckily, nothing happened.

Also, you

really

think it would be worth it? Imagine you were scum, is that a strategy you would follow?

Hm, Im not sure, but I'd say, it would be worth the try - at least, a win can gained from it, and with so many unexpirienced players about, some one of them coudl make a mistake. Im not convinced that you are scum and indeed tried that strategy, but I think its possible.

This arguement is all hypothetical anyway. Until you are sure Blahgo is not mafia, it doesn't make sense to accuse me of quicklynching a townie.

Your best defense. Our argument revolves around wether or not blahgo is town.

I'm feeling somewhat confused. I could easily make a case against at least four of you.

Yep. Im really not sure whos scum or not (beyond the normal paranoia, that the people who you are convinced are town are just very good scumplayers).

All in all, you are still fosed, M4yhem, because although your post was moving, it relied more on moving the reader emotionally than convincing her logically ("I put it to you, people of the town" - thats pure appeal to emotion and sentiment rather than ratio and reason.).

@My math-skills:
Wow, apparently studying Physics doeas amazing things to your mathskills (ie, you know why you can count like you can, but you can't count anymore)

@scumminess of all of you/us:
Like M4yhem said (and I said in my listpost:
Atm, I would not be surprised about any of you being scum - and from your perspectzive, I seem quite scummy, too (the counting thing, the innoence (although that coudl be nervousness/newbieness), that I often change my opinion after people post, and something else I surely missed).
Damm...

[Dr. Doom]

Uh, what? What questions did you ask? What is "acting town"?
Look, nearly all of us have been fosed one time or another during this game. Just say

more

, it wont kill you instantly. Who do you think might be scum? Why? Why are the others not scum?
Just answer, man...

[Dr. Doom]

AC, from what I know of M4yhem... that's his play style. I think I mentioned earlier how the cop got an innocent result on him and we

still

lynched him for acting scummy.

Protecting yiour scumbuddy here, are you? Just kidding (or am I?)...

[Dr. Doom]

And ac's unwillingness to answer any questions looks very suspicious.

Hey, careful there. He is new, so let him get used to it. As he said, he is not very good (or better, he does not feel very good with) making up reasons and arguments. But the problem is: The Town needs reasons, arguments, long posts, thoughts, analyses, etc, from everyone, so that scummies cant just relax, sit back, and watch them lynch themselves. Or, in other words, since lurking/hiding/not posting (or not posting enough) is such a good strategy for scummers, noone is allowed to not say anything (without drawing heavy suspicion, at least).

And yes, someone (or even a majority) will think that you are scum, wether you are scum or not, but thats because there is no sure way of knowing it, so we have to estimate and guess, and that can go wrong.

So post, say somethinmg, say more. The more, the better.

[Dr. Doom]

Protecting yiour scumbuddy here, are you? Just kidding (or am I?)...

I could argue the same for you and ac, considering your last post.

Ya, I knew it the moment I wrote it. *shrug*

Hi BillyTwilight!

Oh, yeah, and hopefully, you get well soon, Hemi - and good luck with your stepdad.

[Dr. Doom]

arg - too many postst in too short time - will post today, or at least tomorrow. I DO have something to say (or better, lost of things), but not the time to read all of teh stuff atm.

[Dr. Doom]

Okay, hi there!

Sorry that I did not post earlier, but there happened Stuff in my life, then more stuff happened, and then I got ill...

Anyway, here I am. Some things:

If I were to analyze myself, and looked at me like I was another player in this game, there would be three things that could be scummy:

1) Me stating my innocence without request, and after being attacked for it still doing it, but then with tongue in cheek:

Well, thats not really a case, since its not really anything scummy. Plus, I explained it already:

Well, It occured to me that its a given that everyone says that he is a townie (regardless of role), so instead of claiming, it was more about obscuring my role, plus that I wanted to get the Ball rolling. Oh, well...

And as I said somewhere else, In teh few real-live Mafiagames I participated in, it was quite common for everyone to say "I'm innocent, I'm innocent!". Apparently, her eit is not, but still: Its notz really something you could make a acase out of or even something you could lyynch someone for.

2) Putting M4yhem on Lynch -1 on page 4:
I reread it, and the same thing that happened when I cast that vote happened again: I just did not realize in which Danger M4yhem was then. It did not occur to me, that with one vote already on him (by Vulcan, me thinks), Ac's vote and mine, he would be terribly close to lynching and it would only need one more lousy vote by some mafiate to finish him off. As soon as I realised whta happened (he pointed it out) I unvoted, so he could not be killed off instantly. That a lynch is final as soon as there are enough votes is pretty new to me, in our relalive games there was always some debate after counting the votes, so there was always room for a last defense or something. You couldnt be killed off like that.

If I were scum, and put him on Lynch -1, and my scumbuddy would hammer him, we would have lost, since M4yhem died on day one, one Nightkill, the hammerer gets lynched, a second Nightkill and on day three I would have been lynched. At least, thats what I would have done if I were town.
So, if I were scum, that would not really have been a gameplan I'd follow.

3)Me being silent after riktus idea:
Actually, I think its a good Idea, although I trhink its wrong to automatically assume that either me or ac must be scum, but more about that later. I already explained why I was silent 4 days long.

Okay, that was enough about me, onto Hemi...

[Dr. Doom]

Hrm, Im a little bit concerned about your crusade against AC, when there was not really much input from Vulcan, Billy and riktus. Of course, of the 4 other people, AC might have been the scummiest, but lynching teh scummiest of the visible players allows the mafia to stay invisible and let the town lynch themselves. Although, now there have been enough posts by all people (imho) and pressure has been applied to everyone (although I'd be really happy if we could put everyone under pressure some serious time before we lynch - the later we lynch, the more difficult it gets for the mafia to stay calm - thats why "I want ac ded naow" is a hefty scumtell, as is the "well, were approaching page six, so lets git someone!")

In your long Analysispost, you also implied often that either AC or I is scum (or both). Implyinmg is a mean faulty Logicdevice, because its very hard to detect, but sells the point nonetheless (although sometimes people do find teh conclusion shaky, but for the life of them cant figure what exactly the shaky thing is).

Oh, yeah, and dont rely on Roleclaiming. Its easy for the mafia to fake, and presto: its wifom. And with a clever mafia, you have serious trouble getting out of that wifom, because they can add other layers at will, with a high probability of making teh town believe that a mafiate is the cop.

A possible scenario about Hemi:

At the beginning, most people that posted seemed to trust Hemi (including me), and let that be known. Then, she began her crusade (being assured that the trust of teh others and the general scumminess/strangeness of AC granted her enough protection to not get attacked for attacking AC so much), maybe trying to get the town to lynch a newbie instead of a mafiate. Of course, if Ac would not be scum, she coudl say: Well, but there were really hefty scumtells etc, so maybe she would get away with it. If Ac would be scum, it would be all the better: Everyone would trust her then, and if she played her cards right, could lead the town into a mislynch, get away from that unscathed because she was right with Ac and there really were enough scumtells to lynch Mr. Townspersonplayer, etc, blahblah, and then win the game.
I dont say that that really uis the case, I just say be careful, Hemi might be scum.
Teh tells in Detail:

1) Early call for claim

(okay, she defended that and I'll give her the benefit of doubt, so lets cross that out)
1) yearning to reach page six to finally lynch AC
2) starting a crusade on someone without having enough material from the other players

but all in all, Im not thinking shes scum, but Im holding my eye open.

[Dr. Doom]

About AC:

Why do you not say anything from yourself, but contribute only after someone directly asks you a question (or there is heavy public calling for you to say something), and even then you post about one and a half line, on the average?
Is it because you are scum trying to lay low, or is it because you dont like to make longer posts, give reasons, reasoning and explanations, logical thinking and stuff? If you dont like that, why are you playing this game in the first place (sorry for being so direct). Getting asked questions, getting accused, even getting attacked is perfectly normal for a mafiagame, and is - if you think about - needed for a mafiagame. How can the town deduct who to lynch? Make a No lynch day One, hope that the cop is a) present and b) alive after night one and start with Day two and a copclaim, hoping that there is a healer a) present and b) still alive? That does not sound like a good plan to win. So: Why dont you make longer and more posts (and no, quoting 5 lines and then adding one does not count as long)?

When someone accuses you of being scum or threatens to lynch you, why do you panick, freak out, and not just defend yourselve? Yes, your reasons might be bad, or hard to transport over a forum, but at least try, gorramit. So: Why dont you just tell us why you did certain things calmly? Is it because you are scum, freaking out? Or is it because you are town fearing to get lynched? But then, why not get angry at them for nearly lynching a townie? So: Why do you such emotional reactions to pressure?

Why did you vote for yourself??? Okay, that could be anger, or anything really, but whats the point? It really does nothing to convince us...

*SIGHS* if i ask questions, i will be considered scummy. if i try to act town, i become "scummy". no matter what i do, im scummy for one reason or another.

What Questions? You only asked one question up to that point, and that was directed at me for my "townie-claim" on page one.

I generally have a hard time making my own explainations

that would explain some things, but there are still some of hemis points that are quite valid. Dont rely on others to defend you, do it yourself!

Okay, I'm not really convinced that he is mafia, but hes the one that reacts the most emotional/fearful when pressured, which usually happens mafia more often then town. Plus, even given enough tzime to think, and even when asked precise questions, he does not coem up with answers that really answer anything, which seems like a smokescreen to hide him.

OTOH, if he is town, and that he does have a hard time puttingdwn his own thoughts, I dont want to be the one to hammer him, because Im pretty sure that I would be the next one hanging (as the mafia would let me life, as I'm a pretty probable lynchvictim on day two).

Okay, one last thing (which is by far the most important thing):
List all players, and say something about them. What are your thoughts about me, Hemi and riktus, for example? Who of us is scum? Why? Why not?


Oh, and an aside:

@ everyone: I am not going too much from 03/05-03/09, because of standerdized testing. mod, replace me if you must, although i would rather not be replaced

With that and riktus gone, do we want to wait? Especially as he cant defend himself now, so riktus suggestion does not make any sense now - dammit, Why does that occur to me now and not when I began to wrote this?

[Dr. Doom]

blahgo/Billy Twilight:

After rereading Blahgos posts, I really think that blahgo was scummy - he posted one or two sentences at the most, but of course that was on the first two pages, so that does not really tell anything.

Billy Twilight:

100% agree on pretty much everything you say - thats exactly how I see the game and players so far (the only exception is of course that I am not at the top of my scum-list, but we already had that discussion).

My defence against you is another post.

All in all, his playing and all his actions were reasoned, very well explained and nothing seems fishy, although he has the benefit that blahgos slightlöy scummy behaviour might not be associated with him, plus that it can be explained away as "first-page-banter/unseriousness", and that he pretty much was never put under pressure, so if he is scum, he can just relax, sit back, and do nothing stupid - just be a calm, reasoned voice so that noone gets angry at him, target the people everyone targets and thus avoid any negative attention without lurking. Perfect situation for a mafiate!
But, as it is the case with Hemi, there is no evidence/indication of this - but it could be true, so I hold my eyes open. If I survive, I'll definetly put some pressur eon you two to see whta will comes up.

[Dr. Doom]

This is day one, there is only one way to get evidence at this stage of the game and that is to wildly accuse people for the slightest of reasons and see how they react under pressure.

That sums him up quite good, as far as I can see. Very clear, very transparent, although very very impatient. putting that third vote on blahgo was very

Even most of your posts were klogical reasoning, you did apply appeal to emotion/made some cases of bad logic when you had to defend yourself, but only after logic seemed to fail. But on page two onward, ther were more examples of bad/misleading/non-existant logic:

The speed of the wagon on me takes my breath away. If only it was as easy for me to get my suspects onto three votes.

There's got to be at least one scum on my wagon.

I'm feeling somewhat confused. I could easily make a case against at least four of you.

Still

, I refuse to move my vote off Blahgo until he comes back and makes some sort of contribution.

(

Emphasis

mine)

Why did you post these?

it is only a game and if we mess up today, there is still tomorrow.

Scummie sense tingling! Careful with that, it really helps the mafia - "On Day one, we dont need to be so careful about who we lynch, since there is always tomorrow" means one closer step to victory for the mafia. They only need two mislynchs and no prevented nightkill to win, you know, so that grants them half of their victory.

[quote="M4yhem]His unvote on Doom was odd too- he said he needed more evidence but hasn't shown any interest in finding it through disscussion, asking questions, applying pressure[/quote]Very good point - Acfan, why did you unvote me?

All in all, the stuff that applies to Hemi and Billy applies to M4yhem too. Although he put the third vote on blahgo, which brought him (and us, as the town) into real danger - as if you di not care about a townwin. But that could have been you being impatient, because the game was slowinmg down a bit back then. Or it could be you trying to get soem newbies into voting Blahgo thjird and another hapless newb (or your expendable partner in crime) to hammer blahgo home. Then, we would kill off the hammerer, and lynch the guy who voted third, but that would be our end, as it would have been the second mislynch - and thus your win. If you were mafia, which Im not convinced about, but it is very well possible that you lost your patience and leapt forward like that, and then quickly drew back as it drew fire.

[Dr. Doom]

I still don't buy this. In my opinion M4yhem, was under a lot of pressure. At some point a Lynch -1 vote is a good thing, so placing one is not necessarily a scumtell, as long as the evidence against that person warrants it. Where a noob has a disadvantage is knowing when that time has come. IMO you thought (wrongly) that a Lynch -1 vote was appropriate and wouldn't get you into any real trouble, but when M4yhem called you on it you panicked and unvoted him. I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with you if you had left your vote on him until he had more of an opportunity to defend himself, but wavering so quickly (on the word of the person who you think/thought was scum, no less) seems much more likely to be a scumtell than miscounting votes.

But I did not want someone who I was not really convinced that he is scum (only had some suspicion about him and wanted to get more posts from him, plus that "3rd vote on blahgop" thing was fresh in my mind) and (if he were town) the town as a whole to be in that kind of Danger. If I would be scum, and I would see a townie being on lynch -1 and the guy who voted third would not be my scumbuddie, I would hammer. SUre, I'd die the next day, but teh day after that, the guy who voted third woudl die teh day after that, so the mafia would have won.
So, as a atownie, I cant leave a lynch-1 vote on someone until Im convinced that guy is really scum. I just had not realized that 23 votes is lynch -1 back when I put my third vote on M4yhem. As soon as I realized that, I withdrew my vote.

So you are still avoiding riktus' suggestion? Why?

see my later post

And why is it wrong to "automatically" assume that you and AC are scum?

It could be possible that Ac and I are scum, it could be possible that only one of us is scum, but it coudl also be possible that none of us is scum. Thats what I meant with "automatic": Leaving taht third option out (ala: "Okay, they interacted, both look quite innocent now, but Dr. Doom still looks somewhat scummier, so lets lynch him, because one of them has to be scum")

I still think that you are scum, so I am leaving my vote as is for now.

Okay, after having posted all this, do I still look scummy to you? If yes, please state again what it is, and I shall try and defend myself against it.

[Dr. Doom]

Okay, one last post for tonight: I really, really, love this game. Thanks for the good time!!

Oh, and another thing: I think we really should wait with teh killing until AC comes back, so he can defend himself.

[Dr. Doom]

Ok, now I really need some clarification here. In post #83 you said that your unvote of M4yhem was due to the fact that you didn't see that he already had 2 votes on him. In posts #152 and #158 you seem to be implying that you knew it was a third vote, but that you didn't realize that a third vote was a Lynch -1 vote (even though this exact topic had already been brought up twice in the game). It seems to me that your reason for unvoting has changed. Please explain this discrepancy.

In Reallife mafia land, you are not automatically lynched when you have a majority on votes on you, and votes can be taken back at any time (at least, in the games I played in). So generally, everyone is more careless with their votes. That was the Mindset I was in back then.

Resulting from that, it really did not occured to me what Lynch -1 means: a possible dead player, as soon as someone hammers. No going back, no unvote, nothing. Then, I also did not really check how many votes there would be on M4yhem after mine, as I did not pay much attention to votecounts back then - in teh mafia games I played so far, it wasn't that important a fact to look at.

So, I did not really care about wether it was the third vote or not, so I did not pay attention. Plus, I did not realize that Lynch -1 means someone is in real Danger.

So, it was a mixture of not caring to count due to not realising what could possibly happen as a consequence of that vote.
Still questions left?

[Dr. Doom]

Doooom- You ask why I posted those quotes. The simple answer is that that's what I was thinking of at the time. I don't see the badlogic you claim is there.

The things I quoted were not argumenst or logic at all, but just appeal to emotion or some other stuff.

You attack Hemi for concentrating on Ac when there are other players about. That doesn't make sense. If she believes Ac is scum, she

should

be pressing for a lynch.

No, Imo. Its completekly okay to have aPrime-suspect, but when there are otzher players about that haven't said enough to gauge their scuminess, than It would be better to first get them to say something then to lynch your primesuspect (who might be town after all)

If you are worried that someone isn't under enough scrutiny, question them!

I did, did'nt I? Okay, Riktus and Raven are still missing, but I'm onto that.

The way you are doing it now, it just seems like you are trying to throw suspicion everywhere, maybe so you can stall Ac's lynch for a while.

Yes, I'm throwing suspicion everywhere, because Im not sure who is actually scum and who is not. Also, Im not convinced that AC is guilty: All that stuff he did might come from him being new, coming under pressure and overreacting of fear beinmg lynched - because in essence, you can never really

proof

that you are innocent, so even if you are a townie, you might get lynched, and it sometimes feels like you cant do anything about it. That might explain his overreacting, coupled with teh fact that he doesn't feel good about making his owen explanations (as he said). Or he could just be scum, but Im not decided. ANd as long as Im not decided, its completely okay for me to fight against an AC lynch, isnt it? (Of course, there might come a point when it's useless to fight it anymore - then he will be lynched. But Im not convinced that that point has come yet. [there is also another argument: when I defend him, and Im worng and hes scum, it endangers my reputation a lot - which is a bad thing for teh town, but of course thats difficult to prove. But methinks that the arguments for defending anyone you are not convinced about outweigh this]).

Ya, I think that is all. Will do a Raven/Riktus reread soon.

[Dr. Doom]

Okay, there seems to be no way how I can convince you that I am town, but still:
I never said that I did not see the Postcount or blahjgos (was it blahgo?) vote - I mean, physically. There were right ther ein front of me, on my screen. The different pieces of Information just never made "click" in my head - that my vote would be the third, that teh third vote is significant vote because it means lynch -1 and thus very possible the death of a townie (or even more than one) and a possible Mafiawin.

When this point was brought up against me the first time, I just searched for an excuse to be over with it, so my answer back then was not as thorough as it is now (plus, its been several days ago, so I don't remember everything I thought back then).

If you still hold up the vote against me based on that, I dont really know what else I can say to convince you (without resorting to lying, of course). So I guess I'll have to live with your vote.

[Dr. Doom]

about the non-logical stuff: Well, the problem I have with them is that emotioanl association instead of logical reasoning can (and will, very probably) lead to false coclusions, and thats why it is a strong weapon of the mafia, so my townie-senses are tingling when I read that. I don't think that you are scum 100% because of them, however, because you used them sparingly and in a non-obfuscating manner (ie, you did not try to make some argument based on that crap and sell it as logic or something).

I still think its very possible for you to be scum, however.

About AC: Agreed. We said time and again that we want to hear something from him, made non-abstract questions/accusations (most of them being: "You say not enough!", but there was more substantial stuff in it, too) but he declined to do so. Oh well...

Its just that his posts remind me of those by RandomActs in Kingmaker Mafia. He did exrtremly scummy things, came under fire for that, and reacted extremly panicky/fearful/aggressive (in a word: poorly) to pressure. He did not vote for himself, but he also in essence said at one point: "I wont defend my self any longer, because its useless". Of course, he was way morer verbose (a fct that lead to his downfall in the first place). And he was a vanilla townie. Ac's post kinda feel the same to me. Of course, I could be wriong, or mybe he is a newbie scum, but still - I just don't believe he is scum, that's all.

Of course, this

I can't ignore something like that because I might be wrong. We'd never get anywhere is we wait for proof.

has merit, too - there will nearly never be definite proof. Och, dammit...

@ Riktus: Since I said that, soem time has passed, during which Riktus has indeed posted more. I'll do a reread of him (and VulcanRaven) sometime soon (maybe today, but dont put your bet on it).

Oh, and

I wont be online from Friday, 12:00 GMT till sometime Sunday

. Sorry, folks, but I fear the reread of VR and Riktus has to wait till then...

Oh, and @ Billy: I like it when people pay Attention to detail, especially in this game. Teaches me to do the same with my posts/votings.

[Dr. Doom]

P.S.:

You can defend him as much as you like, of course. If you're town, you should defend people you think are town. But.. it does make you look suspicious in my eyes. I'm only human, after all, so the first thing I think when someone defends someome I think is scummy is 'they must be scum together!!1!'

Yes, I see where that comes from, and I'm slightly worried that I will be the next target after AC (especially if he is scum, what very well might be true), but please consider that that is really not the case. I'm thinkinmg of ways to try and prove that, but nothing comes to my mind except the likeness to Random Acts in the aforementioned Kingmaker game.

[Dr. Doom]

@Vulcan Raven: Well, I did explain what was going on in Post 168 and 164. Since you bring up the same points as Billy Twilight, I cant really add more to it - I coulsd reiterate it, but that gets tiresome. If you insist, I will, but adding more pressure on me about won't schange anything, since everything is already on the table.

And AC, if you are scum, Im probalbly dead now. Im not town because Im teh only one defending you:

See, if you were town, and I were scum, I would probably defend you even more, since I knew that your death is more or less inevitable now, but when you tunr out town, my Status will be raised.

But if you turn out scum now, and the "put M4yhem on lynch -1 and failed to explain properly" + "hey, he defended AC (who we now know to be scum) and AC said hes protown" - thing gets around and kills me, that would have been one free lynch fpr the mafia.

If that was your plan or not, but it was a pretty darm amart move, if you were scum.

Hey, AC, you got more to say?

[Dr. Doom]

I thought post 155 would be it, but its not really spelled out clearly therwe, I agree.

So:

1) Why do you think I'm town (this menat out of curiosity and to get insight into your thinking, not threatening)?

2) What do you think about Hemi (and M4yhem, because you grouped them together)?

3) What do you think about riktus?

[Dr. Doom]

Oh, and Ill be gone till Sunday evening (GMT), maybe able to log in this evening, but dont count on that.

[Dr. Doom]

I'm back in Town.

C.) Why you think Dr. Doom looks the most town (I am especially interested in this, since I feel like I have caught Dr. Doom in as close to a lie as I have seen in a mafia game)?

Everyone else: I would appreciate some feedback on question C as well - I feel like Dr. Doom has sort of trapped himself and the only other player to even comment on it has been VR. Am I just blowing his behavior out of proportion?

Eh, What Lie? I'd like to defend myself from it, you know - except if its about the "putting M4yhem to lynch -1"-thing again. I could only repeat myself about that, everything relevant I hacve to say about that I have posted in 164 and 168 on page seven.

Billy and I go together because we're both strongly on to your scum partner, Doom, as well. Not that I'm convinced of Doom's scumminess, especially a link to AC, just yet, but the situation keeps swaying me more and more towards that path.

Uh, why? What makes you think I'm his partner? Me defending him? Well, as I said, I'm just not convinced that he is scum, so I'll defend him.

But up to what point?

Well, (from my perspective), there are two scenarios:

1) He is scum. Then I should stop defending him, so I will not get lynched on Day 2 (thus sparing the town from a mislynch)

2) He is town. Then I should defend him all the way, to spare the town from a Day 1 Mislynch, although this could grow into a case against me, either: I so steadfastly defended AC because I knew he was town, in order to firmly establish myself as protown. But why did I know that AC was a townie? Easy, because he wasn't my partner in Crime.

So, it seems, whatever I do, I'm doomed. Especially as it would be quite difficult for me to back out of defending him now (not that I want to do that - I still think that lynching him is wrong) - then I would be distancing myself from him.

The only possible scenario where I have a high probability of survival would be if he were to come up town (IF we lynch him), and I stop defending him before that. Although I would survive that, that isn't necessarily a "Win"-scenario for me, since I loose with the town and then we would have one Mislynch already.

Hm, this does not look really good...

1) Why do you think I'm town (this menat out of curiosity and to get insight into your thinking, not threatening)?
Because i'm just not getting any sort of a scummy vibe from you.

Umm, what does that mean? I mean, I

did

place a thrid vote on M4yhem, and then took it back as soon as people noticed it. That could indeed have been the action of a newbie scummer (of course, part of m,y defense [that votes are cast in reallife mafia with much m,ore abondon and less care] would be a total lie than, but hey, if I'm scum, I can lie, right?), plus that my explanation/defense of it was not really straightforward (and as Billy Twilight pointed out, it was contradictionous [is that a word?] until I then basically said that both was true). That di dnot ring a bell? Wow.
You know, just because I defend you, Im not automatically town (ebven if you are) - The scenario outlined above, where you are town and Im scum to establish myself as protown could be true (IF you are town). Not everyone here that attacks you is scum, and not everyone that defends you isn't.

2) What do you think about Hemi (and M4yhem, because you grouped them together)?
They both seemed to want me lynched

Yah, I gathered that from their posts, too. Err, they made that quite clear, too be honest. What else do you think about them, something we might not know? Look, you have Info we don't - namely, your own role - so your Viewpoint of the game is quite different, as ypu can combinme the public information (their posts) with Info only known to you. Do that, and tell us what the result is. You dont need to restate the public Information, becasue we already have that.

3) What do you think about riktus?
nothing. he never really said anything that said if he was scum or town.

Nothing? Oh, come on. Try harder! He made that proposal, where we should ask each other three questions (which you didn't do until now, btw) - what did you think when you read that? You don't have to decide wether he's town or not, just what do you think about him.

Okay, come on, work with me/us here. You're not dead yet, and you can still save yourself (thus preventing the town to mislynch on Day one). Ask me three things, and answer questions with more than just two lines (well, mostly you just answered them with one line, which is just not enough to convey much meaning, isn't it?).
Come on, this is a forum game about posting, so post!

[Dr. Doom]

Oh, and Happy

to Mr. Flay!



Best wishes!

[Dr. Doom]

Umm, okay, AC, post fast, because before we have no Lynch, I'd rather lynch you (sorry), because I dont want to give the mafia a headstart without at least trying to git a mafiosi on day one.


Oh, and at

Mr. Flay

: Do you really think that is needed? Because as I see it, its veryimprobable that AC will defend himself and we'll agree on who else to lynch (me, M4yhem?) in such a short time....

And I think that at least one of teh people voting for AC is scum (if he will turn out townie). I suspect M4yhem or maybe VulcanRaven (M4yhem for teh reasons I outlinded in one of my lenghty posts on page 7 or 6, Raven is just a "gutfeeling" - still have to reread him and riktus).

[Dr. Doom]

Okay, I just reread VulcanRaven and Blahgo/BillyTwilight, and boy, did something turn up:

I seriously think the two are our scummers. blahgo was wishy-washy-voting in the beginning, and put the third vote on me, the reason being that I said I was innocent in my first post. Is that really a reason to lynch someone or to put someone on Lynch -1? On the friggin

first

PAGE??

When questioned for this by M4yhem, VulcanRaven immediatly comes to his defense without being overt about it: He Fosses him, but does not vote, he always says things like:

FoS: blahgo because of the constant vote changing. Once again, its hard to tell if this nerves or a real scum tell, but I don't think its enough to merit a vote right now and in my opinion, Dr Doom still seems scummier.

- so instead of voting for him, he continues to vote for me on the grounds that truly innocent people dont feel the need to point out their innocence (thus he neatly says "Im innocent" without doing it. Really neat.). Even more half-attacks on blahgo (enough of an attack, so if blahgo ends up lynched he can say he attacked him, but enough of a defense to prevent his lynch in teh first place):

I would have to agree slightly with blahgo on the Riktus attacks simply because I feel that it has been just as much a defense of Doom as it has been an attack on blahgo. I’ve FoSed blahgo but don’t feel there’s enough for a real vote there. His wishy-washy voting was merely pressure from others at the time, having made a 3rd close-to-lynch vote. I think that would be nothing more than these newbie mistakes we keep talking about.

Both Dr Doom and blahgo seem more newbie than scum to me, as has been pointed out many times over. Speaking of which...

blahgo: definitely seeming pretty scummy at the moment. I'm just not yet convinced by just the wishy-washy vote because he hasn't been hopping from person to person, he's just allowed himself to be easily influenced by others regarding his conviction in a Dr Doom lynch. Which can be scummy as well...hm.

Although he says Blahgo looks pretty scummy to him, he does not follow his words with a vote. Again, in case blahgo ends up dead and confirmed mafia, VR can say he attacked him, but he does nothing to further a blahgo lynch, but he says the opposite of that - that he thinks bahgo is scummy.

You're right, blahgo deserves some attention. Though personally, I don't agree with you 100% right now. As proven with Doom, its a bit of a fine line between newbie nerves and actual scum tell. I'm just not yet convinced he's scum and not just allowing himself to be intimidated by others.

More attack-look-a-likes...

What further fuels my suspicion is that back when M4yhem started to attack blahgo heavily for putting me at Lynch -1 on the first page, VR heavily attacks M4yhem for that:

M4yhem, on the other hand, is creeping into scummy territory. M4yhem, you pounced and voted on blahgo rather quickly upon his 3rd Doom vote, and now you’re suggesting a 3rd vote on blahgo? I just don’t see what good that could do, other than setting up someone (who’s guilt right now is very questionable) for a lynch and very much helping Mafia out.

Here, VR posted a real Gem. M4yhem wanted to get some pressure on blahgo, so he said:

Game's slowing down a little, I suggest someone (but only one person) votes for Blahgo.

Note that this is not what blahgo did: Blahgo actually put a Lynch -1 vote on someone, and M4yhem just suggests it (seemingly to get teh game running and/or to discuss his suggestion with the town), but how does VR react? He vicioulsly attacks M4yhem for merely putting up the suggestion, while neglecting the fact that blahgo did something incredibly more dangerous just a page earlier + blahgo wishy-washy-voted. Remeber, as teh quotes above show, VR makes several defenses of blahgo more or less thinly concealed as attacks on him. Here are the attacks on M4yhem and the reasons Vr stated for them:

M4yhem, on the other hand, is creeping into scummy territory. M4yhem, you pounced and voted on blahgo rather quickly upon his 3rd Doom vote, and now you’re suggesting a 3rd vote on blahgo? I just don’t see what good that could do, other than setting up someone (who’s guilt right now is very questionable) for a lynch and very much helping Mafia out.

Notice how he should have been at blahgos throat, because blahgo did something miore offensive than that, but instead he defended him. Then, he misrepresents M4yhems stated reason for his vote on blahgo:

Also, here you had asked blahgo why he wouldn’t stick to his original Doom vote and how he could be so sure Riktus wasn’t simply defending Doom through retaliation. This is a very good point, the only problem of course being that you did the very same thing- voted blahgo for the third vote, in retaliation.

M4yhem did not vote in Retaliation, but because Blahgo put me on Lynch -1 (on the first page of Day one!). Then, VulcanRaven goes to further explain his viote on M4yhem, but his reasons are none: Think about them for a second, think about what this says and how this could be a case in all of earth, but you find any rhyme or reason to it, because there is none. The following quote is lots of text, which seems to have substantiated content, but it really doesn't have any. And that, when there is someone around who put someone else on a Lynch -1 without giving so much as an explaantion!

Your first post of the game, you FoSed Doom instead of voting him. Now, a lot of people FoSed instead of voting, but in general the reasons behind either the FoS or vote was because of his emphasis on innocence. Your reason, however, was the only one different- because he didn’t random vote anyone. Personally, it seems to me you’re the one trying harder to keep Doom in and get blahgo out. This all leads to unvote, vote: M4yhem. Just isn’t adding up for me right now.

Another post which pretends to be an explanation of his vote, but in reality is none:

M4yhem: My vote right now and its sticking where it is until I really see a good reason otherwise. Both Dr Doom and blahgo seem more newbie than scum to me, as has been pointed out many times over.

And more defense of blahgo, which he follows up with another defense disguised as an attack(TM):

blahgo: definitely seeming pretty scummy at the moment. I'm just not yet convinced by just the wishy-washy vote because he hasn't been hopping from person to person, he's just allowed himself to be easily influenced by others regarding his conviction in a Dr Doom lynch. Which can be scummy as well...hm.

So blahgo seems scummy, but doesn't, but its not worth a vote anyway - plus he conveniently avoids the point that one can't really be convicted for lynching someone at page One!!!
And here comes the best bit:

I agree with you again that suggesting the third vote was reckless. The question I'm concerned with is impatient townie or impatient scum? What solid reasoning says you're not scum getting impatient with an impending townie kill on the first night?

Finally, the reason I'm suspicious of your strong attack on blahgo/defense of Doom is that they're almost identical reasons, through my eyes. They're both new to the game, and both have proven to be a bit nervous. Let's review Doom's mistake- overemphasizing his innocence on the first post, plus refraining from random voting. Blahgo voted Doom, withdrew it after pressure because it put Doom at -1 lynch, and then put it back on. All of blahgo's actions seem to be reactions to something said in the way of criticism by someone else. Doom is apparently just a really bad, honest mistake. Both are being chalked up to nerves. Yes, both seem particuarly scummy, and I'm not 100% trusting of either of them. But I don't think for sure either of them are scum yet, either. and through my eyes, you've just made more scummy moves.

Remember, blahgo put someone on lynch -1 on page one, and never explained it. Plus, when asked about it, he changed his vote. When asked about

that

, he changes back. Still, M4yhem looks more scummy to VR than blahgo? Wtf? But that goes on:

M4yhem, the point of you pushing for a third vote on blahgo would be to open the door to a fourth vote and thus the quicklynch of a townie, obviously a great thing for the Mafia.

He neatly explains why blahgo should be questions till Kingdom come, but he accuses M4yhem instead, again being blind to blahgos scumminess. More Blindness in this field:

I was assuming Blahgo was town because he didn't do anything particularly more deserving of my vote than you, he was simply a bit too easily influenced by the words of others.

No, blahgos offense was putting someone on Lynch -1. But VulcanRaven was oblivious to that even right after it happened:

As I see things right now, that fact coupled with my opinion that nobody else has really done anything terribly scummy yet, keeps my vote the same.

FoS: blahgo because of the constant vote changing. Once again, its hard to tell if this nerves or a real scum tell, but I don't think its enough to merit a vote right now.

Again, blahgos offense was not that he changed votes, but that he put a Lynch -1 on someone. But that gets neatly concealed...
Oh, but since blahgo is gone (without being questioned for his behaviour - damm!), and everyone said that they got a good vibe about BillyTwilight, he goes on to say:

BillyTwilight's post has confirmed my earlier gut instinct that, so far as I'm concerned at this moment in time, he's more townie than scummy.

And then, when he gathers that ther earent so many people besides him attacking M4yhem, he convenientkly switches over to prime suspect number one, AC, since for VR, it does not really matter who gets lynched as long as its not him or Billy Twilight/blahgo.

Now for blahgos posts:

I'm going to go ahead and vote Dr. Doom for reasons that have already been stated, to me overstating your "inocence" is a class A scumtell.

Ah, he swims with the masses - trying for an early bandwagon? And he does it, too - his vote is the third, meaning Lynch -1, and he does not even loose a word about it. But it does not go unnoticed, so when asked, he says:

Sorry guys, when I play with my family at gettogethers we usually quicklynch someone who puts ephesense on thier "innocence" without being asked to. I'll remove my vote if you guys ask me to but, until then my vote stands.

Umm, doesn't he realize that that would put town very possibly on Lynch or Loose? Is he even concerned about confirming someones innocence/guilt? To me, it rather seems that he is more concerned with quicklynching...
Riktus and M4yhem note that and attack him for doing it, plus M4yhem says that riktus could be just my scumbuddie (M4yhem obviously tries to teach blahgo here in mafia-typical logic). Then, blahgo promptly caves in, but when questioned for

that

, he caves in

again

(!) and revotes (thjough not Lynch -1, since riktus withdrew his vote to put me out of lynching range. Then, he goes on to quote VulcanRaven and saying "exactly my explanation", when all explaantions he had given earlier were really a bit different (but not that much, granted).

Okay, then he disappears (very unfortunatly!) and Billy Twilight enters the stage and the first tzhing he does (after rereading) is a) saying that AC looks scummy (bandwagoning!), VulcanRavens ridicoulous vote on M4yhem "has just merit", and that M4yhem is scum.

[okay, this might be a bit farfetched, but still:]Just after BT entered the game and attacked Hemi, M4yhem, me and AC (all thje people that were either "mainstream"-suspects or VulcanRavens suspect (in teh case of M4yhem), VR attacks M4yhem, AC and me again (in his first post for 6 days!), maybe trying to tell his new scumbuddy who to campaign for? And et voilà, in his next post, BT says "okay, Hemi, I believe you are not scum"[/end farfetched-ness]
In his next post he agrees with riktus suggestion of me and AC exchanghing 3 questions (which is a good suggestion, btw) - maybe in the hope that one of us would do something stupid to seal their fate, and to get attention away from him and VR - plus it very cleverly conceiled conveys the fact that he is looking for scum, thus being innocent. Then he goes on to say that I, AC and M4yhem are on his scumlists, just like VR (but with teh emphasis not so much an M4yhem, maybe to hide that fact from the town).

But here come the real Goldnuggets that set me on this trail in the first place:

When BT started to attack me, about half an hour later, VR says this:

The real scum tell, in my opinion, is everything BillyTwilight has been hitting on

, this:

Earlier in the game, when Blahgo was taking a lot of heat, I more or less defended him because I just didn't believe he was scum.

and that:

Here we are now, and everyone seems to think BillyTwilight is pro-town (me included).

. Go on, reread the so-called defense of blahg oagain. Its not an open defense, but a defense disguised as attacks, so one could always say in retrospect that they were attacking them! Also, VR and BT are the only ones still going at me for putting M4yhem at Lynch -1 and tehn quickly retracting it (although they have not said anything about that for the last couple of posts, probably because we finally got something from AC).

All in all, they tend to agree with each other without being too overt about it (either by saying things like "like everyone else says, I..." or just saying nothinmg about it at all), plus they are quite defensive of each other (see the early attacks on M4yhem from VR), plus VR really tries to confirm the fact that the very suspicious Saulus-blahgo has turned to very townie Paulus-BT. Oh, and he so totally overlooked everything scummy blahgo did, yet attacked M4yhem for reasons that were waaaay weaker (actually putting someone on Lynch -1 vs. just suggesting it).

All in all,

Vote: VulcanRaven FoS: Billy Twilight

(I hope this does not look too much like an OMGUS-thingie - I tell you, its not!)

[Dr. Doom]

@M4yhem: If I were to protect AC, wouldn't I attack Hemi? Trying to pry upon his crusade thingie or something? Sure, If we lynch VR or BT now, AC is safe, but I still think that is teh correct play (although I'd prefer lynching AC over having no Lynch, because AC might be scum, but no-Lynch means giving the Mafia a Headstart (and we would be in no better positionm tomorrow than we would be today)).

@ the three votes thingie: As I said earlier, I was much more reckless with votes back then. It was practically just a Fos, but in Reallifemafia, Fos=Vote, since <ou can retract them at practically anytime. Plus, after rereading what Vulcan said about you and blahgo, and contrasting that with what blahgo and you really did, it was just absurd.

And as an aside: You are still number three on my suspect list. I still think that the "I'll suggest a third vote for someone, a townie votes third, scumbuddy hammers, scumbuddy gets lynched the following day, innocent townie that voted third gets lynched on day three - Mafia Wins!" is a solid plan, but this VR/BT thing holds more value. It's just not so farfetched.

Oh, and I think the Deadline tremedously helps VR/BT, because they can just wait for Ac being lynched and then hope to divert one of their lynches the following day. Otoh, if we lynch AC, and he is a townie, I strongly suggest that we put them through the grinder on Day Two and see what will crop up.

@Riktus I agree, for the reasons I said above.

Seems like the town is in a good position now!

Oh, and to expand teh "its not an OMGUS"-thing:

a) If I wanted to go OMGUS on them, I would have done so way earlier, when they started to attack me. Right now, I got teh impresion that they have decided to cut me some slack and leave it be.

b) It would be an extremly stupid move now, since Im on the FoS-list of Hemi and M4yhem (i think)

c) I just happened to do a reread of VR yesterday evening (i posted that monster of all postst in teh middle of teh night, so bear with any errors, please - i did not yet read over it again, so if there are any errors, please point them out, thank you)

d) When BT (and later VR) attacked me, I calmly and more than once or twice tried to explain/defend myself (but they wouldn't let go). I decided to live with that back then, becasue there was nothing I could do against it. That is still true - If someone supects me, and I did all teh explaining I could, and they still suspect me, I will have to live with that. Thats why Im okay with being on the Fos list of Hemi, for example.

[Dr. Doom]

Im doing a riktus reread atm, and whil doing it, I fozun another nice, suspicious blahgo thing:

First of I don't wan t to claim because fi I make a claim that is possibly true, and you guys don't believe me that leaves a window open where the scum and come up with a better claim and possibly trick you guys into believing that a scum is a power role.

In other words: "When you guys really pressure for the claim, and I claim cop, you better believe me and not the real cop that might counterclaim"

and

And Riktus I'm starting to think that you're scum for defending Doom.

OMGUS much?

[Dr. Doom]

@AC: Hey, come on, ask me three questions - you still have a chance to defend yourself, but if you don't, I'd rather lynch you than lynch noone (God, I SO hope you turn out town! [because if you dont, I'll be really puzzled over who the hell your scumbuddie is...).

Oh, and a question to everyone who thinks that lynching AC > lynching noone:

Should I retract my vote from VR, so BT cant vote fro him in the last second to force a No-Lynch (since then it will be tied between VR and AC)? What do you think?

Note: I still think that either BT or VR shoulöd be lynched today, but this is a issue of circumventing a no-lynch.

Oh, and another note:
Before VR got swayed, Bt and him just sat back and watched as AC got attacked. I suspect that they hoped for a townie lynch that the town fabricated out of their own (Bad Town!), and then, when page six arrived, and the wagon on AC still had not led to a lynch, VR decided it would be an opportune moment to join it and get the lynch done. I mean, who would have suspectd/attacked him? And indeed, noone attacked him for placing the third vote (and with good reason - there is nothing scummy about it, it just fits in the picture very well).

[Dr. Doom]

Alright, since Doom has been so generous to AC in reversing gears and throwing loads of pressure on myself just before the deadline (too little, too late?),

Huh? What do you mean with that whole sentence?

I’m going to be defending myself a lot it seems. Which brings me to this, since I can’t say I’ve played very many Mafia games on the ‘net, what about my post makes it a classic scum post?

Well, I did about the first third of a game on teh net until now, but it was a super-convenient thing for the mafia to do: Switching over to a convenient, unsuspicious Bandwagon. Of xourse, its not scummy on and off itself, but it fits into the "you are scum"-theory very well.

Although he says Blahgo looks pretty scummy to him, he does not follow his words with a vote.

This has happened many times over this game, and I’m certainly not the only one doing it. At any point in the game, there’s usually more than one person who looks scummy.

True, but you voted but you voted for the person with the second strongest case against, not teh person with teh strongest one.

Blahgo looked scummy

I just didn't believe he was scum.

What now? Is he scum or not? Liar.

how does VR react? He vicioulsly attacks M4yhem for merely putting up the suggestion, while neglecting the fact that blahgo did something incredibly more dangerous just a page earlier + blahgo wishy-washy-voted.

Was I the only one viciously attacking M4yhem? Absolutely not. Riktus and Hemi both called him on it, noting its inherent scummy-ness.

Yes, indeed - M4yhem is still number three on my suspect list, exactly for that (and some other strange vibes). But was I all over him for that? Did I ignore the other very real suspects that were out there? Did I concealed and played down what blahgo did? No, I didn't, but you did. And

that

makes you scummy.

Yourself and AC both actually

voted

for him along with me. You, in fact, put a

third vote

on him.

I explained my third vote on him enough already, but still: It should have been a FoS instead of a vote.

With regards to Blahgo, I felt the third vote had already been addressed – he made a really bad play for the town, and retracted it due to pressure from Hemi.

LIE! He voted for me the whole time - when Hemi pressed him for it, he did not say "Oops, I did not meant to put someone an Lynch -1, it was a mistake" (just as I or M4yhem did, or Hemi did with his pressing for a roleclaim), but instead he still voted for me. Sure, blahgo was stuck in a "dammed if you do, dammed if you dont": If he would unvote me because Hemi attacked him for it, M4yhem attacked him. But still, after soem time passed, he said:

I'm am all for a Dr.Doom lynch

But he could have easily getting out of that, by just unvoting and taking the heat, but he still wanted to vote for me (nothing scummy inherently, but putting someone on Lynch -1 on teh first page and never loosing a word about [instead, still thinking its a good idea!] is not hust a scumtell, its like posting"My PM said: You and x are mafia"). It was only okay because AC unvoted me, so I wasn't at Lynch -1 anymore.

You’re supposed to defend someone you think is town and I thought Blahgo was town. So I defended him. Much the same way you’ve been defending AC this whole time; you think he’s town, so you defend him. It is the nature of the game.

Yeah, but your reasons don't make sense and you lie, scum. So blahgo made a honest mistake, and I didn't? How so? I explained in lengthy detail that Im a newb, Hemi explained his asking for a claim too early by saying that hes a newb, M4yhem agreed that it was really reckless of him, but blahgo said it was a good idea all teh time!! Why is his action an honest mistake (something blahgo never, ever said), but M4yhems or mine isn't???

Perhaps I should have been at Blahgo’s throat a little more because of the third vote- on the first day it is a ridiculously terrible move for the town. However, by that same logic, I should be all over you right now for having put the third vote on M4yhem. Yet, I didn’t attack you, and still refused to vote for you after you came up with numerous, constantly changing explanations as to why you did that.

Lie. You did attack me for exactly that reason. Plus, both you and BT voting for the same person would have been to obvious, now wouldn't it?

I viewed Blahgo’s misplaced Lynch-1 vote and his wishy-washy actions to be those of a nervous new player.

Without him ever saying anything about them. He never, ever justified himself properly, he dodged teh case, quoted you as for his reasons and did numerous other highly scummy things. Yet you think he's town and M4yhem/I are not?

M4yhem’s actions, taken at face value, would indeed be less scummy than Blahgo. He didn’t actually put a third vote on after all- he merely suggested it. However, take a look at the context. He vigorously attacked Blahgo for putting a third vote on so early in the game, and then he advocates doing the same thing.

Yes, he suggested that, and that was indeed very scummy. Hes still my number three for that. But he also acknowledged that it was a bad move - something blahgo never did.

Hypocrisy, and a scumtell in my books.

a)Hypocrisy is no criterium for scumhunting, but catching someone in craplogic, lying and seeing them stumble in it is (yes, that measn you, VR)
b) What was the scumtell? teh third vote? and wioth blahgo, it was just an error? Guano. You should have heavily fos tehm both (and me), but instead xou defended blahgo and attacked me and M4yhem for exactly that reason.

Blahgo was under a lot of pressure at that point, and he could have easily been seeking a quick-hammer, putting us under a lynch-or-lose situation next round, assuming of course there is a nightkill.

Yeah, thats why I fosed him (or at least menat to do, but I voted him instead. Again, in reallife-mafia Fos=vote). But he could never realistically hope that

two

townies would vote blahgo, so his plan would have involved sacrificing a mafioso. But I digress.

Think about them for a second, think about what this says and how this could be a case in all of earth, but you find any rhyme or reason to it, because there is none.

Follow that up with:

I agree with teh people who said that M4yhem looks scummy, from Gutfeeling and their reasoning.

Ok, you seem to disagree with yourself here. You make it seem like I had absolutely no proof at all, you attack my M4yhem post pretty harshly, charging me with no substance. Yet, when you yourself put M4yhem at lynch-1 (scummy?), you said right there you

agreed

with my reasoning.

1) If you quote, dont quote out of context, and dont quote in a way that heavily distorts what actually happened. Thats nearly as bad as lying...

Your first post of the game, you FoSed Doom instead of voting him. Now, a lot of people FoSed instead of voting, but in general the reasons behind either the FoS or vote was because of his emphasis on innocence. Your reason, however, was the only one different- because he didn’t random vote anyone. Personally, it seems to me you’re the one trying harder to keep Doom in and get blahgo out. This all leads to unvote, vote: M4yhem. Just isn’t adding up for me right now.

Thats the post from you that I said had no substance (and it indeed has none).

M4yhem, the point of you pushing for a third vote on blahgo would be to open the door to a fourth vote and thus the quicklynch of a townie, obviously a great thing for the Mafia.

That was teh post I was agreeing with 8and still are, because that one has merit - the other was just protection of blahgo)

As I’ve already stated above, the context in which M4yhem wanted to vote Blahgo made him look scummy. You agreed. At least, you agreed with me until your buddy AC drew closer to a lynching.

Ah, now I'm scum, because I attack you. Thats called OMGUSing, another scumtell.

And more defense of blahgo, which he follows up with another defense disguised as an attack(TM):
…
So blahgo seems scummy, but doesn't, but its not worth a vote anyway

Well, it was a defense of you, too. I saw both of you as more newbie mistakes than actual scum. Doesn’t remove the fact that you both seemed scummy to me; however, you are absolutely correct, it wasn’t scummy enough to merit a vote. So I didn’t.

SO, how do you explain these:

BillyTwilight's post has confirmed my earlier gut instinct that, so far as I'm concerned at this moment in time, he's more townie than scummy

The real scum tell, in my opinion, is everything BillyTwilight has been hitting on

So, blahgo/Billy is cleared of all of his charges, because they were newbie mistakes (without him ever defendingthem !!!), but I'm scum for that?? You contradicted yourself. Nearly a lie.

Remember, blahgo put someone on lynch -1 on page one, and never explained it.

Just a note, he had explained it, actually, in Post #24.

Misrepresentation of teh real thing - nearly a lie. What blahgo actually said was why he voted for me (and saying that he would remove hi svote if other people would tell him so - a nice scumtell, because then its totally easy for mafia to sway his vote+it means that he does not want to take lots of heat), but a) he later contradicted that reason, and it never occured to him that it would be a bad idea to lynch someone with at least doubtful guilt/innocence.

He neatly explains why blahgo should be questions till Kingdom come, but he accuses M4yhem instead, again being blind to blahgos scumminess

I was never blind to his scumminess

Oh yes, you were. You conveniently ignored time and again what blahgo had done and never really defended (saying "thats's how we do it back at home" only is not enough, you know? (yes, I did teh same, but I did say and agreed that it was a very bad idea and pulled it back as soon as it occured to me. blahgo didn't.

as you pointed out in the first large section of your attack, I did note many times over that he had made scummy plays.

You just forgot the most scummy thing he did all the time, only saying very abstract things about him being tough to read and making newbie.mistakes or you talked about teh wishy/washy thing, but you never said anything about his third vote (the one time you talk about it, in post #55, you mention it if its nothing bad when its about blahgo, but when it goes against M4yhem, its a deadly Sin. What now?)

He simply wasn’t the scummiest from my point of view, much the same way right now AC isn’t the scummiest from your point of view.

He wasn't just not teh scummiest, but you defended him but disguised it as attacks teh whole time. Thats a whole different world. I defend Ac very openly, though I agree that what he does coudl be scum, but I explained time and again why I defend him. You jsut said "thats the newbie mistakes we keep talking about". WHole different beast.

And then, when he gathers that ther earent so many people besides him attacking M4yhem, he convenientkly switches over to prime suspect number one, AC

I tried to make it clear in my post that I wasn’t really through with M4yhem. However, I’m not about to continue attacking a guy who, I think, had defended himself calmly and well enough, when I think someone else has come to the forefront and been made out clearly to be scum. I think AC is scum, absolutely. I think M4yhem is scum

my

. I just wouldn’t be doing my duty to the town to continue voting for someone I think is less scummy than another. There was nothing convenient about it.

Aha. Why didn't you say so in that post? (btw, @M4yhem: What makes this post a classic Scumpost?). But your second point is plain wrong: This game is not about Duty, but about tactic. If its tactically wise to vote for some person, do so. YOu put AC on Lynch -1, thus we might have had a lynch on our hands that would have happened too early (especially as AC was away duriong that point of time, so there was a large window of time where scum could have killed him withoutus ever hearing a defense from him, thus retracting our votes. Oh, and it was a superconvenient Bandwagon: Everything a lot of people do is easy for teh mafia to subvert. So all in all, your defense of that vote is none, or at least craplogic (Duty to teh town? Wtf?) And there was a lot of convenience for you in it. Liar!

VulcanRavens ridicoulous vote on M4yhem "has just merit",

As I pointed out already, it wasn’t a ridiculous vote, it did have just merit. If it was so ridiculous, why did you agree with me at the time?

The ridicoulous thing was how your portrayal of M4yhem and blahgo clashed with what they really did. ANd as I said earlier, M4yhem is number three on my list.

plus they are quite defensive of each other

Yup, you’re right. I defended Blahgo because I didn’t think he was scum, just like you’re doing now with AC. Does that make you and AC scumbuddies? I don’t think so, but using your logic, well…

Eh, you contradict yourself in your own posts. Earlier above, you alluded to me being a scumbuddy to AC, and you said earlier that you believed me being scum (in post # 172) and that AC is scum (#150), so we must be scumbuddies. You lie again. Plus, OMGUS. Oh, and if AC comes up scum, I 'm fully expecting to be put through teh grinder for defending him, and I think I'll die if he is scum. Well, I hope he isn't (or should I hope he is? But I already addressed that), so if you would have just said that you think we both are scum, there would be nothing suspicious about it, but you tripped over your own lies.

plus VR really tries to confirm the fact that the very suspicious Saulus-blahgo has turned to very townie Paulus-BT.

Alright, this might be my newbie-ness kicking in, but…I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to say here, sorry

That blahgo might have been scummy, but that BT really is a pro-town player. Saulus was a badguy, but got converted to christianity through a miracle and then called himself paulus. Im alluding to your post # 124

Finally, as for BillyTwilight, welcome to the game, and thanks for making it interesting. Blahgo was particularly suspicious, though I had personally believed it was more due to nerves than an actual scum tell. As I said, your analysis was very well thought out, very inciteful.

Here we are now, and everyone seems to think BillyTwilight is pro-town (me included).

That were teh posts I was referring to: You stated his innocence twice.

So there’s my answer to Doom’s post. To conclude, I defended Blahgo simply because I did not think he was scum. I don’t know what else to tell ya, heh. As for M4yhem, I guess it might look like trying to draw attention away from Blahgo for “ridiculous” reasons but then, you had agreed with them at the time.

Yeah, but when I thouroughly reread you, the crass contrast turned up. Oh, and teh inconsitencies in your post (eg,you saying that you defended him back then, but back then you always fosed him and acted as though you would attack him without really doing it. That rang a bell).

If we follow this reasoning, I think AC and Doom would be overwhelmingly more scummy than BT and I.

OMGUS again.

Simply because, AC (Doom’s hypothetical scum buddy) is on the verge of a lynch and now Doom is making a final, desperate play (deadline coming up, after all) to direct attention away from his buddy and move it elsewhere, praying that it works to at least save AC from getting lynched.

If I were scum, I would have happily sacrificed AC after Hemi attacked him with his long post, thus pallying up to hemi, and marking myself as town.Sure, I would have lost my buddy, but that makes it all easier for me, since all I have to do now is find teh cop (if he exists) and kill him. Even if the cop claims, I could countzerclaim and let teh cop live for some days, thus robbing him of his credibility. I would never, ever play such a high risk play if I wouldn't be sure that AC is town. In fact, I would have hammered him by now, so I could get soem suspicion off of me. Plus, when you are scum and you are alone, there is much less revealing interaction between you and your buddy. OMGUS again.

I’m sure that, as scum, they’d both be happy with a no-lynch at this point, since they’re both close to the chopping block.

May I direct you to my post #203 and #207, where I say that lynching AC is better than lynching noone? If you try to go OMGUS at me, at least do it right.

The exact same reasoning can be applied in both cases.

What?

So Doom, my questions to you are these. What about AC makes him look so townie to you, when everyone else thinks he’s quite possibly scum?

Compare him to Randomacts in Kingmakermafia. RA was just a random townie doing stupid mistakes. While I agree that AC's low input is not good, and coudl very well be a scumtell, Im not convinced about it. And so, I think lynching him is wrong, because a possible townie-lynch is niot good.

Why the strong, strong attacks on BT and I when you’d already done a run-through of BT and found nothing?

Because what set me on my trail was found during a reread of your posts. Oh, and read my post # 156 again, please. There I said it could be that he is scum, and that blahgo was indeed incredibly scummy, but BT gets away because he is not blahgo and everyone has forgotten about him. There just weren't any solid signs of that in BT's/Blahgos posts. But in yours, there were plenty - especially your protection of blahgo, how you attacked M4yhem for reasons that were way weaker than the stuff blahgo did, yet you say he might not be scum, your more or less lie taht you earlier in teh ganme defended blahgo but back then you gave teh impression taht you attack him, your stating of BT's innocence twice, etc...

And why did you agree with my reasoning against M4yhem when you’re now attacking it?

Again: M4yhem is my number three, for the reasons you pointed out in #76 and Im not attacking that at all. What I attack is that suggesting somone (but only one) should vote for someone is a major scumtell, while actually voting third is just a newb making a mistake. The difference in the evaluation is what it makles so ridicoulus, and your protectivness of blahgo without saying so back then, but in retroprospect (plus saying that BT is surly a pure townie) is what makes it a scumtell.

[Dr. Doom]

And as an aside: You are still number three on my suspect list. I still think that the "I'll suggest a third vote for someone, a townie votes third, scumbuddy hammers, scumbuddy gets lynched the following day, innocent townie that voted third gets lynched on day three - Mafia Wins!" is a solid plan, but this VR/BT thing holds more value. It's just not so farfetched. Again, you’re changing your opinion to suit the situation.

Alright, but in the post where you attack BT and I you have one specific section you label yourself as farfetched.

Oh, wait. the whole case against you and BT is not farfetched, imho. What I thought was farfetched is that you tried to communicate with BT in ahidfdn way in your post, that is all. That I think that a part of my attacks is far fetched does not invalidate the whole thing, nor do I change my opinion here. Don't misrepresent me.

Too tired for more!

@Hemi: Umm, WHat? I'd really like to hear a case, if there is one, agaisnt me, so I can defend myself.

Supposing we manage to get AC lynched today, I feel that whether or not AC is scum, Doomie is our next best bet to lynch tomorrow.

And wtf? So Im scum regardless of AC's alignment? How the hell does that add up???

[Dr. Doom]

Okay, I just read BT'S post.

Mr. Flay, can we please get an extension of the Deadline, because I have to work tomorrow and wont be online much?

I really, really want to say stuff about that, but I feel its not eough time left.

Oh, and about the cop-scenarios: Wow, that never crossed my mind. If there is a cop, and I make it through the day/night, please investigate me (but dont claim too early!)!

about Scenario one: I defended agaisnt that in my post on VR, but Ill say it again: If Ac and I were scumbuddies, I would have dropped him like a Hot potatoe after Hemis post. Yes, I'm mean like that. Ac's cause was lost by then (he could have rescued himself by posting more and more indepth (and he still can)), but trying to defend him? Pfffhhh, no way. Better teaming up with Hemi, marking myself as town and go "hm, teh scum is surely soemone from teh guys who did not vote for AC, the scummer" instead.

[Dr. Doom]

Ohmigod, I sooo hope that Im right about VR - because if I'm not, I'm dead, right? And then teh game is lost - oh well...

[Dr. Doom]

@BT: So, you say that me voting third/Lynch -1 on M4yhem was done in full knowledge what it meant because it had been discussed in extension before? But if I was aware of all that, would you really think I would have voted someone to Lynch -1, a thing two people did before me and were heavily fosed/scolded for??? If I'd been fully aware of teh discussion and its meaning towards my actions, I woudl also have been of teh consequences. If I would have been scum, I would have hold my vote back either to hammer someone were my buddy had cast the second or first post on (thus sacrificing myself, but allowing my scumbuddy to win the thing for us) and to not anger someone.
I would have played like riktus did: Stay in teh back, comment much, but do not vote, on grounds of being undecided. If somone makes a good case against someone, I'd agree and vote, but only if its the second vote, never ever the third, so I'd get away with it when the townie dies. First, second or Hammer, thats the two votepositions I'd aim for as mafia.
To sum it up: If I were aware of all teh implications, I would have bben aware of the very begative consequences as well. It didn't M4yhem and blahgo any good to put teh third vote on, how could I have believed it would do me/my team any good?

The other problem with your defense opf blajhgo is: He isn't a newbie anymore. He is a member since Spring last year, and plays/played in at least three other game, only this being a newbie game (If i got that right). Still, if he were a scummer, it was kinda stupid of him, but still: VR protects him like there is no tomorrow, attacking teh people who attack him for exact the reasons they attack blahgo. See how its different with me and AC: I dont attack people that attack him (well, I did attack Hemi, but that was in one of the longass analysis posts, were I pointed out a possible scenario for everyone were they could be scum). Im not saying that AC could not be scum (okay, VR did that too). But I dont disguise it. Im very open and clear about it. Im not trying to decive anyone about it.

On Scenario two: Huh? Why would I do that? Thsi would only make sense if M4yhem and I were scumbuddies, because if anyone else would be my buddie, I would not have to get attention away from my partner, because noone else is under scrutiny. Oh, and attacking someone to get attention away from oneself never ever works (as can be seenm here). Teh person who attacks is always suspect to counterattacks, probable OMGUS - thingies and general questioning of his motives. Plus, I already were under your suspicion - So I could get nothing away from me through accusing you and VR of being scum. Plus, If I were scum, I would have just killed you off in the night.
So, your attack holds no water (except from the third vote thingie and my shaggy explanations of them) and is made up of logic with false premises. Im itching to scream Liar! at you....

@ riktus: I also find it odd that Hemi wants to lynch me whatever AC's alignment is, but as there can only be two scum in this game, I don't think that hes scum (as you implie). Still want to hear an explanation from Hemi about that...

@ M4yhem. Uh, that was odd. Scumtell, I'd say, but the same things that aplly to Hemi apply to you: You cant be scum along with VR and BT. But still - that was odd.

@AC: To answer your question: Because I think you are just someone who does not like to post so much, got angry/frustated, and thus made mistakes, that is all. I dont want teh town to be at Lynch or Loose tomorrow, so I try to avert your lynch. Of course, I realize its not a battle I can easily win, but Im used to fighting such battles and see them realistically. Of course, if you die and turn up scum, I'll be in areally bad position (which does not matter to much, because if the town still wins, it's okay if I die) and I'd be really flabbed about who your scumbuddy is. M4yhem? VR? Hemi, even?? Riktus??? I wouldn't know, and because there is noone who would make sense as your partner, I dont think you are scum.

Becasue a scumtell on asingle person alonme is not enough: There are two scummers, and every attack/theory of scumminess has to take that into account.

P.S.: Congats on teh testing, AC

P.P.S.: Man, Im having a blast here, people! Im practically addicted to this game right now, its so fucking cool!!

[Dr. Doom]

Blahgo put a Lynch -1 vote on Dr. Doom early in the game. He was called for it and swapped his vote to a FoS then back to a vote on the advice of the experienced players in the game. When he was accused of being wishy washy

he quit the game.

Dr. Doom's constant harping on why Blahgo didn't defend his post or unvote Dr. Doom is ridiculous because

Blahgo wasn't here.

Erm, his Lynch-1 vote was his second post, made on Feb 15. His last post was on Feb 20, five days later. He had enough time, and there was already enough pressure on him. Actually, his last post prepaed us for scenario where he would claim a powerrole and rob the real powerrole-claim credibility upfront. There was enough time.

VR defended blahgo as being new and when I started playing he stopped being suspicious of me... something that Hemi, M4yhem, riktus, and

even Dr. Doom himself

also did.

Yep. I think I was wrong back then. The scenario I pointed out in #156 seems to have more substance to it than I thought back then. Also, that a lot of people do something is a non-argument. If all people agreed upon teh fact that grass and the sky have the same colour, the sky would still be blue and grass green.

Dr. Doom is attributing to blahgo that he should have known that a lynch -1 vote was a TERRIBLE THING at page 1.... when his defense against the lynch -1 vote against M4yhem is that

he himself

didn't understand what a lynch -1 vote entailed over FIFTY POSTS LATER.

This is my first game. Blahgos account is over one year old, and he played/plays in three games.

Am I allowed to quote stuff people said in other threads?

.

He calls VR's vote against M4yhem craplogic... which is ridiculous. Perhaps if M4yhem had already had 2 votes against him and then VR placed a third vote on him then VR should be questioned about it.... but VR didn't put the third vote on M4yehm....

Dr. Doom did.

Notice that he put that third vote on him

directly after AC placed a second vote on M4yhem.

If I and AC were scum, how would that have helped us? As I said earlier, If I were aware of the possible consequences (namely the possibility very early lynch), How could I have ssen casting teh third vote as beneficial? Mayhem got heavily attacked for it, blahgo got heavily attacked for it. How could I have deemed it a good idea, if it had not been for me not being aware of that I placed the third vote on him? Look, its my first game, so I was not paying as much attention to my votes as I am now. I voted much more careless, not making sure that it wouldn't be number three (or even four), because that one would need to be much more careful with ones votes had not yet occured to me as a consequence of the whole "as soon as you reach a majority, you die"-thing. In Reallife, its much different. So, the longer I thought about the system used here, the more clearer all implications and consequences of that system were to me (and of course, that someone pointed it ouit for me helped a lot to jumpdtart my thoughts, too). If I were scum, there would have been no logic in my actions. As I said earlier, first, second or fourth vote is the good place to be for scum at Day one. Either too far away from the Hammerer to get under pressure, or be the hammerer yourself, and subsequently die for it, and thus buy your partner enough time/confusion/obfuscation to get him through teh endgame. But never, ever third.

I have already shown how he has changed the reason for placing that vote and he has dismissed it by saying, "Well, if that is the only thing you have against me then I can't argue against it anymore." He has called people liar over and over again when the only person who has changed his story in the game so far

is Dr. Doom himself.

I did not dismiss teh attacks on me, and I agree that ist is a scumtell. I only said I cant reall add more to it: My defense would be more of the sdame old. I can think of another thing now, though: The things I pointed out above: Either I was fully aware of what I was doing, then it would be horrendously stupid for me to do that, or I was not fully aware of what I was I doing.

He claims that my second day scenario is invalid because I claimed that he wanted to draw away cop attention from his partner.... which is a misrepresentation of what I said. I said his intention was to direct attention away from himself and his partner (meaning from the rest of the players in the game) and cop attention away from himself (because he fears a cop will investigate him based on the story change with the M4yhem vote).

If there is a cop out there, please, for havens sake, investigate me! (and Oh god, please dont let it be AC - If youre Cop, your Claim would have no credibility at all...). Okay, and I dont really get what you try to tell me here - coudl xou repührase it? I understood this

Secondly he is desperate that if there is a cop in the game and a night cycle coming that they investigate either myself or VR instead of him.

to mean that I wanted to get a Cop to investigate you or VR, right? Well, I guess not. Uh, Im stuped at what you try to tell me then...

Dr. Doom had originally supported M4yhem before he swapped his vote. M4yhem even called him on it in post 80:

Dr. Doom, that was a very quick turnaround. From defending me to putting me at lynch minus one in the course of one post. I think that's quite irresponsible. You didn't even give me a chance to answer his case. Fos: Dr.Doom. There's got to be at least one scum on my wagon.

M4yhem had made the mistake of calling for a lynch -1 vote against blahgo. I am going to take him at his word that he was just impatient with how the game had slowed down. At first Dr. Doom wanted to defend him because he was OK with a blahgo lynch... i.e.- blahgo is not his scum partner.

Cheeky aside: Well, you would know

Then when AC voted for M4yhem he saw that M4yhem was in serious trouble. So he changed his mind and voted for M4yhem, post 79:

I agree with the people who said that M4yhem looks scummy, from Gutfeeling and their reasoning. I started posting my last long post before he did, so I did not notice what he said + the way he immediately reinforces my argument (well, that alone would not be enough, but in combination with the other stuff), plus the fact that my line of reasoning (no scum would cast vote number three because it makes them a target) is faulty due to the reasons that VulcanRavenpointed out.
A possible Scumplay would look like this: get some person to two votes short of lynch, ask for pressure, some townie casts the third vote, the other scummer hammers him to death. Of course, the hammerer will get lynched, and very possibly the person who voted third also. By that time, there have been 6 deaths, five of them town and only one mafia. Then, the mafia has won.

So: Vote:M4yhem

A couple of things to point out here... he gives a pretty crappy reason to make his vote - "I posted and then M4yhem immediately agreed with my argument, so that must make him scum."

No, that was not the argument. The argument was this: I had pointed out in my post (wrongly, due to sloppy research) that it would be a bad idea for mafia to vote third for someone. M4yhem agrees to that, saying "I wish I had thought of that", but teh thing is: I was wrong. He did not cast the third vote, but he called for someone else to place it, so my argument that defended him falls flat. And becasue M4yhem agreed to a wrong argument, I suspected him Much more, plus that the new possible tactic of calling for third vote, and when it is cast, letting your scumbuddy hammer came to my mind, teh suspicion rose even more. Thats why I turned around so quick.

Secondly, all his argument about not understanding how a hammer vote would immediately equal a lynch is destroyed in this very post, because he states that a hammer vote by saying "the other scummer hammers him to death." This doesn't look like the thought process of someone who thinks that after a hammer vote the person in question would still get a chance to defend themselves, which is an integral part to his defense of this vote.

See, as I explained earlier, the system used here is pretty new to me. I was not fully aware ofall implications that system has for your own voting behaviour, that it is absolutely crucial to count the number of votes before you cast yours, especially. That had then not trickled into my mind as really important. Plus, that I think I really overlooked AC's vote, because as I rweread that part again today, I saw the postcount on top of teh page, scrolled down for my post, saw my vote, and then wondered: "Huh? Where is the third one?" before I saw AC's.

Finally he cast this vote

directly after

AC casted his vote.

If I were scum, I'd never ever do that. It just far too much revealing. If I were scum, I'd play low, lower, the lowest, because the twon will weed tself out.

In my opinion Dr. Doom saw a huge case built against M4yhem and thought that he could get away with a lynch -1 vote on M4yhem... first of all, he would be able to push the most suspicion on Day 2 on whoever the hammer vote was, and second of all because at some point in the game someone has to make a lynch -1 vote (and a hammer vote for that matter) that can't be seen as scummy.

But not on page 3! It was far too early in teh game to lynch someone. Plus, as scum, I'd avoid placing teh third vote whenever I could. And there, I was in no postion to have to cast my vote. It would have seemeed overly eager to get someone lynched (and indeed it is seen as that) if I were to quicklynch soemone on page three, however justified my case would have sbeen (If M4yhem would have ended up dead and turned out to be scum, it would have been a whole other beast: Then everyone would likely have been reprimanded about lynching someone on page 3 or four, but no suspicions would have been cast out (This scenario could work If M4yhem and I were scumbuddies).

His argument that the lynch -1 vote or the hammer vote always has to be the lynchee for the next day is erroneous... in fact that only holds true in a real bandwagon situation.

As it was back on page 3.

At some point in the game for the town to win, the lynch -1 vote and the hammer vote have to come from townies. He knows this. In my opinion he thought that M4yhem had enough suspicion on him that a legitimate vote could be placed against him. He then panicked when M4yhem fingered him and unvoted, realizing that there probably wouldn't be a hammer vote against M4yhem. Also the way M4yhem stated that "at least one scum has to be on my bandwagon" scared him....

No, what M4yhems post did to me was that I realized that he was at lynch -1, and although I thjought that he was really suspicious, I did not wanted to get him lynched so soon (especailly as the only people interested in early lynches are the summers, so if M4yhem would get early lynched, he would very likely be a townie, since the mafia would have hammered). I dont want anyone lynched in this game without consent of most of the town, and that consent not only expressed through votes, but also through posts. And it was teh same back then (thats why I attacked and suspect M4yhem in the first place).

He didn't want a trail from M4yhem pointed backwards at the first three votes.... he wanted it pointed forward at the hammer vote (if one ever came).

But it would have bben totally unrealistric to expect some townmie to kill M4yhem in that situation. My behaviour as scum would have not made any sense.

Why? Because AC had already voted for My4hem. Dr. Doom saw it as a perfect scenario. AC, his scummate, had already voted for M4yhem (something that hadn't really hit me before). If M4yhem had been lynched the most pressure would have been on the hammer vote (who Dr. Doom would have known to be town). When M4yhem pointed a finger at the bandwagoners (

AC and Dr. Doom

) Dr. Doom flinched and changed his vote.

No. See, placing my vote directly aftwer AC would have been incredibly stupid as scum, as would hoping for some other twonie to kill him, as would be teh assumption that I would live through it . Of course, teh hammerer would have bene gitted before me, but I'd still be dead - but that is moot anyway because there wasn't nearly enough pressure/opposition on M4yhem to realistically expet someone to step forward and kill him right then.

More evidence that AC and Doom are partners.... mostly circumstantial. He has constantly defended AC ever since AC has been under suspicion (He avoided riktus suggestion for as long as he could, he has asked AC softball questions like "Why do you think I am town", etc.) When AC suggests someone as possibly scum Dr. Doom takes the time to build a huge case against that person, and when that person answers him he basically starts name-calling and screaming omgus, omgus!! At this point I don't see how Dr. Doom and AC

can't

be the scum-pair.

Because it would be incredibly stupid of me to defend AC for so long. If we were scumpartners, AC would be dead by now, as I would have hammered him long ago. You'll bnever catch me defending my scumbuddies, because that would be way too easy for the town. Scummers need to appear as a normalo townie: alone in a game with noone they can count on, no allies, and noone who defends them viciously. Someone dwefending his partner was the major method we used in Reallife mafia to find scum, and thats what got me started on VR and you in the first place.

P.S.:Happy Scumday, Riktus!

[Dr. Doom]

Doom and Ac's reactions both give me pause; they seem almost to be covering themselves for when Raven comes up town.

Where did I do that? Sure, I could be wrong about VR (and i've got teh nagging feeling that the mafia is riktus and Hemi or something and they just lean back and let tegh town weed themselves out). So, I want some input from you, Hemi.

@Ac: The chance that one of us dies, is incredibly high, but its not too much of a problem as long as only one townie dies. Sure, one mislynch and one correct lynch would mean Endgame with three people alive, a situation that is very duifficult for the town, but nonetheless a) winnable and b) a lot more desirable than two mislynches.

Depending on how the situation evolves, I'm willing to get myself lynched in order to help the town (ie, by clearing any of that you and me being scumbuddies thing and adding absolute credibility to all my posts).
Well, I won't be able to participate in teh game then, but I'll surely watch it (and there are other games, of course).

Last point: the only people that have said nothing yet are Hemi and riktus. say soemthing! Oh, and of course AC. Say something, goddammit, teh pouints that M4yhem summarized agaisnt yu are very valid. You could be scum , you know.

[Dr. Doom]

Hm.Hemi and Riktus or VR and BT?

[Dr. Doom]

Oh, Im quite sure where your rethinking will lead to:

Supposing we manage to get AC lynched today, I feel that whether or not AC is scum, Doomie is our next best bet to lynch tomorrow

Yesterday you managed to avoid explaining this - maybe today would be a good day.

Oh, and Im absolutely in favor of putting every single one of us through the wringer - we cant afford to overlook someone.

[Dr. Doom]

Okay, sorry for the silence - reallife has reared ist ugly head.

Okay, nalysis/thoughts on Players (without a full reread):

Hemi

:
When I first wrote about her, I did made up the possibility of a scenario where she just plays it cool, does not draw fire, and then, when everyone thinks (and says) that she is town, heavily attacks someone. She openly admitted to that. Back then I said that while it was possible, I did bnot believe it, but since the situation has changed now, I'm more inclined to believe it. You might very well be scum, Hemi.
@pursuing me regardless of AC's alignement: Well, I really dont know what went through her head back then, because there is other omnious post where she says: "Well, it looks awfully scummy, but I'm still voting for AC". If she's a townie, she trusted her instincts waaaay too much - your gut is for digestion, not thinking, so don't overly rely on it. Of course, it's very helpful to find out where a certain gut-feeling comes from - that might give you clues, but trusting it without thinking about it leads to wrong conclusions.
If she was scum, she might have thought that she was so trusted and I was drawing fire so much, that she could lead another lynch against me - I don't know.
All in all, I'm not sure how to make sense of it - it's bad play, whatever your role is.

Another Note: If I were scum, I would have offed the most innocent-looking person (riktus or Hemi), because then teh chance is higher that the remaining town will eat itself. Otoh, Hemi did raise some suspicion, and by more or less singlehandedly killing a townie, the suspicion raises even more. But on teh other hand, it would have made sense for you to off M4yhem, since noone really attacked you, and if VR is your partner, offing me would have been plain obvious, but M4yhem was an okay choice, although riktus would also have been on my list (if I were you and VR would be my partner). Of course, if riktus is yopur partner, I'd have offed me, altthough that might have been to risky, since it would have been too easy for M4yhem zo figure it out then.

To sum it up: I'm really not sure about you. You could easily be either scum or town, altthough your post about going after me regardless of AC's alignment makes more sense as town than as scum, and you do not have some scumtell in your past. Otoh, riktus accused you of being a lurker by posting, and I can't really see that (yet, due to inexperinece), and you more or less killed a townie. Oh, and that thing about "at least I was righjt in trusting M4yhem" irks me - you never said so before (at least I don't remember it), and its quite easy for someone to buddy up with someone "post mortem", so to speak (in order to increase the own trustworthiness).

riktus

Hm. You need to post more, since you were away so long. I can''t really get a read on you. I did not realize that you did not intended to hammer ac, since your post seemed to indicate that you would be happier with an ac lynch then with a VR lynch, and that's just what you got. I for myself would have thoughtr nothing about your hammer, but that you now claim it was unintentional seems strange, although I don't think you are scum for it, since it does not really makes sense for scum to play like this. It's hard for me to get a read on you, since you never seem to attack people, and seem to have never been attacked. Along with Hemi, we really need to put you under pressure to see what comes up. And post more, please - I'd happily interact with you.

BT

Hrrm. You defended yourself quite good (better than VR did), and you also defended blahgo quite good. I do believe that you are a townie, although I still have that VR commenst in teh back of my Head about you and blahgo - those make me feel uneasy, but you give me not eniough reason to gang on on you further, although I do believe that before we lynch anyone today that we need to pressure each of us, lest someone slips through unchecked.

If the thing with my lynch -1 vote on M4yhem is teh only scumtell on ym record, please consider that I was a) really very new (this is the first Game of Mafia I ever play online, and I had not read some of teh other games liek I have done by now) and my last real-live game of mafia is about 2 years back. When I first defended agaisnt it, I just wanted to get over the accusation and get on with game - I wanted to get pressure off of me as quickly as possible. Now I know that that was teh wrong Idea - the goal of teh town is not to get pressure of their back, but to be as open as possible (and is safe, when it comes to powerroles), so people can make informed decisions about who to lynch. Not telling teh truth right away normally adds to the confusion and obfuscation, something normallyonly the mafia can profit from (at least that's what I think I understood about the game - that's one of the reasons why LaL is in place, right?).

VR

Okay, you defended yourself not so good, imho - thats why I pounded more on you and got overboard with constantly screaming LIAR!!one! at you - to see how you would react if there would be more pressure apllied to you, following teh theory that scum gets more nervous than townies - especially on the first day. Of course, my main angle of attack on you was your connection to BT, but as I said earlier, I think that BT is town (or at least that seems more plausible), so that kinda means by extension that you are town, too. OtoH, you could still very well be scum. Hrm. Im not sure, but I still gmeoy.

[Dr. Doom]

I have an Idea, and I would like to hear your opinion about it:

There are 10 possible ways of who our scumbuddies are - that is, there are ten ways to pull two out of five. Plus, although it would lead to WIFOM really quickly, i find it interesting that M4yhem bit the dust. And, I would like to put some pressure/get something substantial from everyone (thats mainly, but not exclusevily aimed at you, riktus), si my proposal is thus:

Everyone describes why they would have chosen M4yhem as their Nightchoice, when person X was their scumbuddy.

Like this:

If me and Hemi were scum together, I'd have chosen M4yhem over BT/Vr because ... and over riktus because...,. so all in all M4yhem was the best choice.
If me and BT were Scummers, M4yhem would be better than Hemi because..., better than VR because... and better than riktus because...

Dont forget to take into account that M4yhem would be still alive if he wasn't killed off!

Of course, you would have to make sure that, when two people have done that, that there are always two possibilitys left for each person except you - the best way to achive this is to choose persons that already posted as your scumbuddies, or someone the person before has not chosen (if you are number two to do this).
Agh, its kinda difficult to explain, but imagine something like this:

where each of the colored dots represents one of us, and the possible lines between them represents a possible scumpairing.
Did this made it any clearer?
So, watcha think? Good idea to get some info out of people, bad because its WIFOM all over the place?

[Dr. Doom]

Again, the intention of the vote was that ac likely be lynched in preference to VR, just not then.

Come again? I honestly don' understand this sentence...

Doom: Why do you think going after you regardless of AC's alignment is more town than scum? That doesn't really make sense to me.

Because I think it's an error made by her - I'm halfway buying her story, although it still gives me itches. The thing is: If she were scum,. it would be awfully stupid to do something like that. If she were scum, and she would really hold thispolicy up - going after someone who defended somebody else like that, and that somebody turns out innocent - that just doesn't cut it as a plan for the mafia. Thats why I find its more likely that what she said is true - that she was just sure that ac was scum and by extension, me too (or that I was at least a decent shot, seen in Post 36: "Doom's the next one on my list, unless something big comes up." - the big thing being AC's innocence now.). Nevertheless, it still irks me. Im really not sure.

BTW, I accused her of lurking-by-way-of-posting back when I first came into the game. That was based on the beginning of day 1, when I felt that a lot of posts were more in the vein of keeping away from lurking status without a lot of substantial input. It was really before her major crusade against AC (when I came into the game she had a vote on AC for lurking, shortly thereafter is when she made her real attack against AC), so I don't think I'd characterize her that way now. A lot of her later day 1 posts were pleas for others to vote AC or questioning of AC, so there wasn't a whole lot of input about other players in that if I recall correctly. Of course, if she is town and really thought that AC was scum then I would have expected her posting to follow that pattern anyway, so I can't hold that against her.

Hm, really? I dunno - of course, AC didn't give her lots of new stuff to work with, that's true, and after some rereading, she often said "sorry for being absent so long" etc., so her I will not hold her absentness after she attacked AC against her - plus she leaned out of the windiow pretty far with lynching ac and whatnot.It would be quite a risky play for the mafia to play (otoh, it seems to work on me, doesn't it? Oh, crappit!)

I would also like her clarification on the "trusting M4yhem" statement. I don't understand that, or see where it came from in the day 1 conversation. I agree that its really easy to buddy up to the dearly departed, and it could be an attempt to make herself look town by associating herself with a known town player.

QFT - whats up with that, Hemi?

I'd hold off on the strong language about her "killing" a townie. She

was

the first person to vote AC, and at least 2 townies were in on the lynch, and she didn't force anyone to vote for him. I don't like how the way you phrase that seems to put sole blame on Hemi.

Okay, she was the one to majorly drive AC's lynch - "I want AC dead naow" - remember? She also refused to look at other people - people that have not been looked into - before lynching someone, thus allowing the mafia to stay morer or less hidden. If she had voted for AC in teh beginning, and then later would have said something about my accusations oagainst you and VR, or would have brought up her own stuff on other people, but then still decided to go after a AC, I'd find it way more acceptable. but as it is now, she

is

the major player in AC's lynching. Of course she has not forced anyone to vote for AC - but she can't do that. She was absolutely positive the whole time to git him, and would let not sway herself or even take othe rthings into account - as seh said, she was so sold to the idea that ac was scum, that the possibility of him being not scum not even entered her mind except on a highly academic/theoretical level. Sp I think its fair to say that she of course did not carry the sole blame for it - there were three other people voting for him, of course - but she was the majopr driving force behind it, and she is the one who had the best chances at turning the whole thing around. But she didn't, because she was convinced.

Weren't you earlier advocating that a scum in this C9 setup would gladly hammer and even if he got lynched that would leave his scumpartner a good chance of winning on day 3? Why do you think that is not the case with riktus?

What I meant was that I would not expect scum to make a play like this and then try to cover it up as an error, but now that you mention it, it seems quite the valid play/plan for scum, except that he could have done it way earlier - riktus was awfully long not voting, and AC was awfully long on Lynch -1. Ther would have been ample chance to pull this off. OtoH, this play here might be more longplanning/foreseeing, because if riktus would have hammered more openly/eager, his scumbuddy would have entered endgame - a nonideal situation, plus the possibility that ther emight be a cop around, which could very well spell doom for the mafia in teh endgame. so,

FoS: Riktus, Hemi, VR

. I did not think about the thing like this before, probably because a) it seemed to be acceptable for me to lynch AC (in the sense that now was an okay time -there had been pressure on other people, other scenarios had been thought about, there had been discussion about other people), and
b) because it seemed kinda inevitable to me at this point - apart from that glorious moment where there was a deadline and VR would have been lynched, there was nothing that I could have really done to prevent, plus the chance that AC

could

turn out scum, so I would have spent all this Time and Energy defending scum. So I felt it was okay by then, but now I'm having second thoughts. Let's see how this turns out. [I'm really starting to wonder why M4yhem bit the dust - he was on the AC-wagon and was on the radar of several people, so why not let him life and hope that the town sorts it out between themselves? strange....]

What BT and riktus say about Hemi is reasonable, and generally resembles what I think about, also Hemis defense seems appealing to me, although, upon reading your thoughts about it (especially that "preempting your first reaction"-thing) and watching myself react to it, I find it more and more supicious. Plus the fact that she and Riktuis could have worked together to lynch a townie like that - I'm nowhere convinced that riktus and Hemi are scum, but I think its highly possible, and if it weren't so dangerous, I'd vote for them (more about this later), but I'm not sure enough that they arescum, plus I want more input from VR (and Hemi, too).

Okay, time for me to say some things about the "third vote on M4yhem and then turn around"-thing.
I'm not going to aim for an explanation that gets this off my back, because
a) I tried before and it dfailed,
b) I think that BT and riktus are satisfied with different things, so its pointless to try either way
c) (and the most important thing) There are two angles of how to play this game: Either I try everything (literally, that includes lying, pleading an d whatnot) to minimize the chance that I get lynched, so the town does not loose (yes, that is another "I'm innocent"-post there, but I'm okay with saying that now because) or to be as truthful as I can, so everyone else can make an informed decision. Plus iot has the added beenfit that lying as town can backfire,a nd if it does, its quite horrible - like claiming townie when you are the doctor - seems like a good idea at the first glance, but it will backfire and hurt the town, because the decisions everyone else makes are made on bad information, thus possibly faulty conclusions. At least, I think - I have the feeling that I still don't know enough about this game.

Okay, I'm not sure, but I think what happened was really this: That I overlooked AC's vote. Sure, it's bolded, but when I reread that part of the thread, it happened again to me: I saw teh postcopunt, saw AC's post, saw mine, and asked myself "Huh? Where does the third vote coem from?" When I then saw that AC'S vote was to the right, at the end of his post - agh, I just reread and it happened again. There is an "unvote" at teh beginning of his post, and then comes some lengthy stuff, that I just skimmed over, and his vote slipped through.
The other thing, teh newbishness: Of course, in theory I knew what voting third for someone means: Thats the whole basis on which I voted for and attacked M4yhem. But that theoretical knowledge had (yet) not lead to the conclusion that I have to be really careful when I vote and should ideally doublecheck how many votes there are for any given person and if I'm okay with the possibility of a (mis-)lynch right now and here. If that insight had crept into my behaviour back then, I'd have paid more attention to the posts beforemine, not just skimming, but making sure that there was no vote and making it conciously aware to me at how many votes M4yhem would have been (and how the two scummers could possibly react, if my target was actually town).
I think that it was happened, and that is why I voted for him, and then retracted my vote as soon as he posted something back, because then I counted, and began to make myself clear what the implications of the theoretical knowledge are. Not that I did not vote after that for wuite a long time, for these exact reasons.
Also note that if I am scum, what would have been my possible plan? Why would I do such a thing? Before me, two people (namely blahgo and M4yhem) voted third for someone and got heavily attacked for it - do you really think I would vote third in such a situation then? It would have bben way safer to do it like riktus (or like I did after that): to just nopt vote, to contribute, but hold your vote back. Thus, you leave no hard, tangible trails and can retcon your position way better (thats why people generally get a Fos when they dont vote for people they accuse [and thats what makes VR's turnaround-post kinda strange]).

In the past, I tried to get this accusation off of me as quickly as possible (and that bites me in the behind now, of course), but taht has a) not worked (and rightly so) and b) its not teh best way to go, because allowing the others to make their decisions as informed as possible is important. [Note: That does not mean I'm fishing for a copclaim or something. There are situations in which withholding information is the better way to go, but this wasn't]

This whole thing sounds corny to me, but I don't know how to make it so that it doesn't.

One thing that does not depend on how believable I am or something: If i am scum, that play would be really stupid. There would have bene no reason for me to place that vote, because I wasn't under pressure or something. Letting the town sort it out for itself is a valid and good plan for the mafia. Just lay back, wait who they accuse and get near to lynch, chime in, say soemthing founded, but don't get too active so there will be less suspicion on you. Of course, that can backfire, but leaning myself out of the window like that? Why?

Another thing: Blahgo and M4yhem got attacked for placing/calling for a third vote. If it really were in my concious mind that my vote was the third, would I have placed it then? There were two people already under heavy fire for it, so I'd do the exact same thing? Huh? That'S like seeing someone topuching an electric fence, then saying "oh, man you are really stupid to do that" and then going and touching it yourself deliberately. The only way I see how I could have done that is because I did not knew it was the third vote when I cast mine (ie, touching the fence unintentiony).
Further evidence for (or at least indication) for that is that as soon as M4yhem said that I had cast the third vote, I unvoted. I don't see a plausible scenario where this would have happened and I would have cast that vote having in mind that it is the third.

Voting:

By thinking about it, it occured to me that voting now is one of the most irresponsible and dangerous things to do now, but as soon as a townie votes another townie, all teh mafia has to do is to pile up their votes and then its Good Game. So DON'T DO IT, unless you are really, really, sure and would be perfectly okay with a lynch right now anm dthen. Or, in other words: Handle it like your vote weren't a vote, but a Daykill, like in Bad Idea Mafia (a hilarious read, btw - shortest day one ever!). I just wanted to say this to prevent accidents. I thought about not saying it, and then waiting for someone to vote and then attacking them, but a) the defense against it is way too easy and/or wifom-ish, and b) it really could spell doom for the town, and albeit it might not really be that likely to happen, what happens when it happens is that we loose, so it beats all other arguments. The risk might be low, but the negative reward is way to high (was that clear at all? Man, I suck at explaining today...).

"Why did M4yhem got offed"-thing:

Well, yes, its timeconsuming, but a) its a good way to get soemthing out of everyone (atm its between us three only),
b) its a good way to get all possible scenarios into the discussion, so we can't overlook the real thing on accident and
c) letting people accuse themselves is a nive way to get information out of them, imho. If it wouldn't feeling like shootingmyself in my foot, I'd do it more oftzen, but when everyone is doing it, it doesn't feel as bad to me as it normally would. What do you think, BT?

Oh, and thanks for the cookie. Im not rereading this whoel thing, too...

[Dr. Doom]

Anyone still alive? Or are still bummed out from the MarathonDay?

[Dr. Doom]

Okay, no time for an inmdepth answer (fridays are terrible) - I hope I'll be able to answer tomorrow more indepth, or at least at Sunday.

But still some things:

a) I think soem of your arguments hold no water, for example that you find it bnot good that I speculate about who I'd chose when I where scum. I dont see why you don't like that.

b) glorious: Well, you see, up until that point, it felt like all my (and Ac's) attempts at preventing a lynch from him were utterly futile, and possible more damaging to him/me than then benefical. When M4yhem changed his vote (something I found incredibly scummy back then, but chose not to discuss on Day 1), I felt for the first time that I coudl actually change things and peoples thinking in this game. That's why it was glorious.

c) Okay, admitted, you said you'd do riktus later, but doesn't his hammer vote bother you?

d) Hemi and me being scum: Yep, it would be an awesome play, because at least one of us would probably survive Day 2 without heavy doubt. But it would require a lot more Communication than what could have possibly happened between the two of us. Remember, we never played together before, and Night one would have been the first point in time where we could have talked freely. That is not enough Communication to coordinate such a thing. Plus, I would not call suspicion on him now - there are way more viable targets (riktus, you, BT) to go after, in order to try and end the game Day two and not go into the risky Overtime.

Well, more later.

Oh, and Hemi, friggin post something. If it wern't for 3 to lynch, I'd vote you right now for lurking (@ the IC's: or is that considered a stupid play? I dunno, both sides seem to have good arguments).

[Dr. Doom]

meow...

I mean: I'm sorry, but I probably won't be able to post today or tomorrow, and after that I'll be on vacation for about one-and-a-half weeks. Expect at most posts like this one: Short and without much analyis - I'm sorry, but it can't be helped really.

Hemi, post!

[Dr. Doom]

Just to chime in.
VR, please respond to my short post about yours, thx.
Welcome Ultimate Avalon - the fingers on Hemi just aren't there for lusking but also for driving a lynch on a townie (and subsequent buddying up to a dead guy). Good luck with that (if you are town)!

Hrm, thats all atm. People, post stuff, so I can analyze it
(there is a medium probability that I'll do an analysis/attack/rebuttal of VR's post in the near future).

[Dr. Doom]

Plus: Buddying up to M4yhem after his death. If you can find where she indicated that she trusted him before he died, please quote that - I want to see it.

[Dr. Doom]

1) Victor? What? Oh, that one. No, I'm not named after him - I did not knew he existed when I created this Name, although I knew the Name was too cool to not be already taken. Oh well.

2) I agree with BT for the most part, although I find sentences like "Of course it was in post #150 that VR had a change of heart [...]" not very good - its not "of course" - nothing is given in this game.
In general, I just don't like "rethoric", as it takes away from the core fo the argument, although I use (and used) it too.

3) Hemi not Fosing or Voting for M4yhem could be interpreted as her trusting M4yhem, but otoh it would be somewhat counterproductive to Fos or Vote for someone who votes for the same target as you do.
I'm not convinced by that, anyway. It just occured to me.

4)

Billy- How come you are voting for Doom and not Ac? If you really believe them to be scum together, shouldn't a lynch of Ac be just as good as a lynch of doom? Or are you afraid of hammering a townie?

You answered to that in your first post of the day, and you answered it again now, and both versions stay true to each other. I'd still like to hear some more about that, though.

5) Riktus, more Input, please. Over the whole course of the Game, you voted twice, and Fosed about three Persons. Something more substantiable and traceable would be nice.

6) There are way too much replacements. BT is blahgo, okay (although teh new Avatar still confuses the heck out of me), and UA is now Hemi. *sigh*

7) VR, post something! You and

Hemi

UA are my Primesuspects, and I'd rather lynch one of you two (and might lose the game) than lynch noone and loose 100%.

Grrr, more later, sitting in an Internetcafe and running out of time. I'll be back home from my vacation on Friday, and might post something then or Thursday evening (although my friday is packed to the brim, so the best guess would be Saturday) - until then, I don't have the time to do full analysisses of posts and stuff.

[Dr. Doom]

Yay!

[Dr. Doom]

Okay, some posts were lost: One, where BT says something about climing Cop (namely, that it is extremly advantegous to cliam Cop if you are now, EXCEPT if you have investigated M4yhem), and second one, where I said I had a good idea, but no time to explain it. More on that later.

UA and VR: POST!

[Dr. Doom]

The site was down for the last few days, and BT posted soemthing after you, I think.

[Dr. Doom]

Agree with UA. There seems to be no Cop.

Some things:

1) I'm kinda torn on you, riktus. You seem so innocent, yet you did not vote all Day 1 until you basically offed a townie and then claimed it was an error. Dang, if I type it out that way, it really gives me headaches. Plaese say soemthing about that again (eg, if I misrepresented you, or if I overlooked(is taht a word?) something or anything).

2) I think BT is town. Your defence vs my attacks was well and good, you questioning me was also well an dgood (although its bad that it can't really come to a [good] conclusion).

3) UA - I don't know. Campaigning all Day 1 for atownie so opnely? Brazen move for scum, but realistic? I dunno. Otoh, her behaviour was bad, really bad during Day 1 (want lynch now, etc) and I agree with whoever (BT?) said that she picked out teh weakest of the pack.
What also strikes me is that she never even considered other options really, but kept campaigning to lynch someone for lurking and not defending himself well, but Ac never really acted scummy (imho, at least). Thoughts about that?

4) VR/Replacement - I think he is our best shot for today - the other one could be either UA or riktus, I think, but not sure on both of them (although I think UA is more scummy than riktus, on teh whole).

I di not reread teh thread for this, so its all from memory - thats why there are no quotes or anything, and that why I don't have a foundation for VR (its just a gutfeeling now, but I'm sure if I reread him, I'll remember the things that tick me off).

Food for thought & Discussion.

[Dr. Doom]

1) UA/VR

a) For their overall scumminess, and for VR voting directly after Hemi prompted everyone to vote for AC. Plus, he never really defended himself from that. Plus, his defend against my accusations left something to be desired (imho).


2) UA/Riktus
For offing a townie, and riktus for not leaving enough traces behind. Too few votes and Fosses. Otoh, he called out Hemi for his scummy actions on Day 2 (distancing? Bussing? Who knows).

All in all though, given from the input and discussion that happened betwenn the three of us on Day 2, I have teh feeling that BT and riktus are town, so VR or UA would be my wish for today, slightly leaning towards UA, but I'm okay with Hemi as well.

[Dr. Doom]

throw a coin? ^^

[Dr. Doom]

Welcome Now a Ranger! I'm sorry that you are very near to get lynched and are more or less the prime suspect of three (four if you count UA) people, but I can't help it.

And Happy Birthday to you, Ultima Avalon. I'm sorry that your birthday present from me to you is likely going to be a vote, but its the spirit that counts, right? Err, no, wait...

This is indeed confusing, and I'm not sure what to make of it. I say noone votes until further discussion has happened.

The more I think of it, the more UA seems scummy, btw. From what riktus, BT and me have posted, it seemed clear that we form some kind of voting Block (when it comes down to either

VR

NAR or UA, that is), and if we are right about our scum, than that is indeed a very scary prospect for scum - something that might prompt this kind of behaviour. Last Ditch, Over the Top, Dashing, etc...
Not sure on this, though.

What I wanted to post this morning was actually that we should vote for UA, since he comes up in four out of five possible scumpairings posted by ma and BT (riktus, if you ever made such a list, I can't find it (lost in teh servercrash perhaps?)).
Plus, VR fossed him.

Guys, all in all, I really think we found em, they know, we know, and there is not really much they can do.

[Boy, I so hope that neither BT nor riktus are scum trying to play me/us....]

[Dr. Doom]

@UA - ac made a really bad and unhelpful play in not defending himself, but Hemi made quite an overblown attempt to get him lynched ("want ac lynched now please" etc.). She was in many ways the driving force behind his lynch, and that is what the problem people ahve with her is really.

I agree, though I'd normally call you for not even mentioning that you were the one who Hammered AC (ie, you could try to avert attention away from you on Hemi/UA).

@UA basically, read Day two. There, everything that riktus/BT/I found scummy about Hemi has been talked about.

About UA and NAR:

If you two are scumhunting townies, I'm the Queen of England.[/Appeal to Emotion]
Instead on focussing that make me, riktus or BT scummy (and there is stuff), you focus on each other, [Speculation] probably hoping that by attacking another player (that will turn up scum), they can somehow convince one of teh remaing townies that they aren't scum, but the other townie is, thus winning teh game.[/Speculation]

Btw, the fact that there is a vote on someone and teh scum still haven't won, proves that either UA or NaR are in fact scum.

riktus, when does your vacation end? I'm ready to lynch either UA or NaR now, and the other one tomorrow. I do not think that more then what was already said can be brought up, though that does not mean that everything is lost, if either one of you, UA or NaR should in fact be town! If you are really town, and really don't want to loose, you still have the chance to do that. I'm also open to more debate coming from you, BT or riktus, and I'm also willing about discussing me/my behaviour. I just think that nothing really new will come out of it.

[Dr. Doom]

If UA's town, then the scum have played a great game.

No, they didn't, because if UA is town, you are scum. Since everyone has seen and reacted to her vote, there are three possible combinations:

1) UA is scum, and NaR isn't
2) UA is town and NaR isn't
3) Both are scum (which I think is true).

There is, however teh chance that you both are town and the scum (riktus and BT, from my perspective) just didn't do it, since riktus has sporadic access at best atm. But even if that were the case, they could have voted for UA a long while ago without anyone heavily attacking or fosing them.

[Dr. Doom]

Meh, I can go either way. As I pointed out, one of teh two is with 100% accuracy scum (because neither of us three has ended the game yet).

UA is more scummier, yes, but if you look at NaR's posts more closely, he does not defend against anything we have put up against him, doesn't even reacted to my post, etc. As I said earlier, these two are never ever (ie, this game - eternity is 14 Pages!;)) scumhunting townies.

On another note: There is no Cop in this game, except if he got M4yhem the first day. (which would have not been a bad chaoice, buit not the wisest one, too - riktus as teh ahmmerer, VR/BT as one of the people who got heavily accused, me to check if I was scum protectingh my buddy, Hemi for driving the whole shebang - M4yhem was in no way the best pick for a Cop).
So, I'm pretty sure that there is no Cop.

Lynch one of the two today, the other tomorrow, nearly regardless of what one of the two say or what happens during the night. The only thing that can help these two (apart from giood, hard arguments), is wifomy, desperate gambits, so expect them to happen.

The possible scumbags, with those taken out that could have ended the game already (in least possible to most possible):

1) & 2): BT/NaR and BT/UA - tied, and totally unlikely now.
3) riktus/NaR - quite unlikely, too. Its only higher than the other two because riktus appears to be slightly scummier than BT.
4) riktus/UA - the only other realistic one, imho. would have been quite a day one, and the hammer by riktus would have really been a mistake - awesome play then, and they'd deserve the win.
5)UA/NaR - for all the reasons stated. One of the two must be scum ("must be" as in "if people play correctly"), or the game would have ended by now.

From 4) and 5) combined, lets lynch UA, but as long as we stick to to the two, the order of people does not really matter.

[Dr. Doom]

Yep, and your role PM strongly urges you to lie about your alignment... [/rethorics]

As to what else you two had to say:

Well, I don't know what to say. Do you two WANT to get lynched or what?

[Dr. Doom]

1) Why exactly do you vot efor each other? Give reasons, please.

2) riktus, say something. I don't want to vote without your consent, so please say something, as this gets kinda boring.

3) People in Order of scumminess (seen from the outside, ie without knowing my Role PM):

1)/2) UA/NaR

3)/4) riktus/Dr. Doom

5) BT

Remember that since we still not have lost this game, either NaR or UA (or both) MUST be scum with nearly 100% validity.

[Dr. Doom]

If you two decide to lynch someone in my absence, have at it. I really couldn't care less which of UA/NaR is lynched at this point. They are both scum.

My thoughts exactly. I think we successfully figured out who the scum is, and the scum know it. This games is kinda boring for me right now, because we have done what we needed to do (finding scum), and now we just have to act upon it.

I'm for long days as everyone else, but this thread has reached page 14, and I don't know what more discussion will bring. One of UA and NaR has to be scum, so at least we got a 50/50 chance. Please, riktus, just lets vote for UA (or NaR, if you prefer - I don't care) and get over with this.

[Dr. Doom]

1) Wait, you say that you investigated VR? And came up guilty? Why didn't you say so immediately after replacing in?

2) Why not the other wayx round? Why not making me your enemy and BT your friend?

3) Your plan has one fault: If you were a known enemy of BT, and you'd get nightkilled, it could have been me trying to cast suspicion on BT.

Plus: You'd be dead, so you couldn't tell anyone anything. Your plan is bad.

Well, I don't really believe you anyway, but its better to lynch VR then to lynch UA then.

Three scenarios:

1) VR is actually town, and UA is scum. Well, that would be bad luck then, and we'd loose, but I'm willing to take the risk.

2) VR is scum, and Ua is scum. We'd still lynch scum today, and we can say if we believe UA or not tomorrow.

3)VR is scum, and BT is a Cop. Well, we'll have another investigation then by tomorrow (if UA survives the night), and we will see tomorrow.

Notes:
There could be a Doc, so if UA survives the night, that does not mean he is scum automatically. I urge the Doc (if there is one) to immediately come out tomorrow if UA survived the night and say if he protected or not, because that will give us valuable information.

Another Note: I'll be Offline until May, 2nd (or May, firast evening). I'll look into this game tomorrow morning, but then I'll be off.

Well, I'm all for a NaR lynch now, so if you want me to vote for him, say so until tomorrow morning (GMT).

[Dr. Doom]

I'm town, and FYI there is a doc.

You mean you are the Doc?

When I replaced Hemi, I knew two things. Most fingers were pointed at me, and that Hemi was a cop who hit scumdirt on Night 1

Wait, you say that you investigated VR? And came up guilty? Why didn't you say so immediately after replacing in?

Number 1 conclusion is wrong. I don't think that's what UA meant.

And if that is not what UA meant, what did UA meant then?

Okay, please don't lynch till I'm back, sorry to keep you up. *sighs*

[Dr. Doom]

VR protected Dr. Doom, and I would guess ( I will never know for sure, as VulcanRaven hasn't returned ) that he/she protected Dr. Doom because he brought lots of content into the game and had long posts.


I didn't know what to make of your claim. I just know that you claimed doc, and the rest was ambiguous to me. I just didn't think you said you got a guilty on me. I guess you said you did, which isn't true.

Utterly Lie. I'm the real Doc. see you at the Lynching Block tomorrow, scum.

Top repeat: I claim Doc. I'm the real one. and I have waited since Day one for scum to claim it - I thought about ways to lure out scummers to claim Doc, but everything I could have done would have looked like I were role-fishing.
[Another thing I wanted to say since I got my role PM: "The Doc's the Doc, Dawg"].

btw, I protected riktus Night One.

Another Note: That I might survive the Night doesn't mean anything (concrete) about my alignment, because Nowascum could just let me live to discredit me.

Since NaR is the absolutely best game for today (froma "we dont want to loose now"-point of view, but see below for some discussion on that, I strongly urge either riktus or BT to vote for him. I still don't believe UA one bit, but VR just has proven (as in "with 100% accuracy") that he is scum. Of course, I can't present that evidence to you, because it's my role PM, so you have to trust me on this one. Whew.

So, in Conclusion, a 100% not-going-to-loose-the-game-vote on NaR:

Vote: NowaRanger

.

Sadly, I'll probably not make it into Endgame.
Well, I'll still win together with you guys, but oh well. Go Town!!

[Dr. Doom]

Edit:

Vote: Now a Ranger

riktus, if you find that UA would be the better play for today for tactical reasons, vote him. Also note that when riktus votes, and we did not loose then, that riktus is a cleared townie, so BT, don't move your vote if you want a townie to be cleared.
You two were/are an awesome town I really loved/love to play with.

[Dr. Doom]

Whoa: Maybe I did not think that one through enough, but maybe here is a surefire way to win:

If riktus is scum, he votes for UA now and we loose.

If riktus is town, vote for NaR. After his role is the revealed, I will be a confirmed townie (because a) there must be at least one scum in {Ua, NaR}, or else scum would have won by now b)If I'd be scum with NaR, I'd have hammered UA by now and won c) If I were scum with UA, the town would have lost the moment riktus voted for NaR). I'll protect you at night, so Ultimascum has two possibilities:

1) No Nightkill. UA will come out claiming she got guilty on BT, because that is her only chance. No way to completely clear BT, I suppose, but I trust him.

2) Kill BT. That means, we are two confirmed townies left, so UA is lynched.

3) Kill me. Well, riktus is a confirmed townie by then, and you'll just have to trust BT then (or better: trust you, maybe Ua is teh Cop after all, which I highly doubt but can't rule out with 100% Accuracy)

Happy votinmg for NaR, riktus!

[Dr. Doom]

Ach, forget it, no point in doing tactics anymore. You two are just so ridiculously scummy, why don't you just claim mafia?

I'll end this day now.

Unvote. Vote: Ultima Avalon

.

I'll protect riktus (to Now a Scummer: Will I really protect him? Wifom, but now its teh othe rway round: Town doing it on Scum! Nehnehnehneh!)

[Dr. Doom]

Quadrupel-post: NaR, you should be lynched tomorrow on Lynch all Liars. Or, to quote Glork (I belive): "If you think lying is good for the town, you did not think hard enough".

[Dr. Doom]

1) What I just said out loud and thought about you, BT, is not printable. Fsck does not even begin to describe it (no hard feelings). I was SOOO f*ing sure that you were town, BT.... Damm!" Damm the Devil! Damm the Devil to Hell!

2) I would have not believed your Copclaim (maybe) because you could/should have just claimed after two Docs claimed. One of them got to be town,. so you would have survived.

3) I'm sorry riktus! He just seemed so damm pro-town!

4) UA: woah, incredibly bad play, asorry to to say that. I know, I'm a newbie myself, but you did not mounted anything resembling a decent defense Day two, nor a good attack. Plus, why didn't you claim earlier?

5) I officially hate you now, BT. Well, no hard feelings, but for the record, I hate you.

6) That was an awesome play, BT. Very good job on Day two. VEEERY Good job.

7) Good job, NaR, too. You were so scummy, the onl yway to top that would have been to actually claim scum.

8)

OOOOOOOOOOOOOM WHAT THE HELL MAN! WE HAD THEM. Billys refusal to change votes after THE MOST RIDICULOUS CLAIM OF ALL TIME would have cynched this for us.....GAH! "

Well, he said lots of times earlier taht he was indiofferent on who to vote out of the two of you, so I would have not hold it against him.

Whew. Finally over. A shame that I (we) lost, though.
Oh, and sorry for you two again (and you, M4yhem) - would you have done it different? Or: What could I have done better?

You had us at the end of day 1.

Yay! And it proves one thing right: If you can keep your temper (like you did), you can win as scum. That's teh most important thing to remember as scum, me thinks: During the course of teh game, someone, somewhere will get suspicious, and that someone will drag out all your damm, dirty details. But: Keep your act together. that does not mean Game Over. Town can always be convinced otherwise.

Oh, and my gut led me wrong onm this one. My gut just screamed: "UA scum! Nar scum! riktus town! BT town!!"
Sure, there was a last bit of doubt when I voted you, UA, but I had that doubt with NaR as well. I should have gotten attentive when I had no Idea on how to clear BT.

[Dr. Doom]

Emphasis mine means that when you quote something and ephasise (ie,

bold

or put in

italics

or

underline

) sonmething that is not emphasised in the original. Example:

Bus

sing

(Emphasis mine) from "throwing people under the

Bus

".

[Dr. Doom]

Good night everyone!

[Dr. Doom]

but I was dreading a day 3 with you me and UA.

Nah, nothing to fear for day three with you and me:

Vote: UA

Let's get over with this game

Or something like that. Maybe, just maybe I would have thought twice, but still. I was more convinced of you being town than I was of riktus. Damm.

Sorry to UA again. Yeah, lets play another one together.
Arg. We had a Cop and a Doc didn't manage to lynch a single scum? Urg.

It just hit me in teh head this morning why M4yhem had to go. because he voted for BT/VR/bought my story. Good decision to off him, and I'll never let myself get distracted why scum kills people. It forces them to make random choices, which is better than strategic ones.
Damm, I nearly twice claimed Doc earlier, to make it easier for the Cop, but if UA had claimed then, I would not had believed her. Claiming early with info is important, as I said in the long Post about my M4yhem hicc-up: More info, the better.

Ach, Good game. Got me really excited, and I did not have a clue till after the end.
thx at the compliment for me hiding the Doc. It was quite easy. Just don't say it [I'm not too sure what would have happened if I had successfully protected the first night].

Oh, and where did you gather that Hemi was a Cop? I'd be nice to know such things...

[Dr. Doom]

Err, I never claimed Vanilla Townie. I said that I'm innocent. And I said that in the reallife games I attended to, that people there never claimed, except that everyone said that they are Vanilla townie.
If I had claimed townie, I would have been (very rightly) reprimanded for that, since it makes it easier for the scum to find Powerroles (or you are lying).

[Dr. Doom]

Erm, I was convinced that UA/NAR were scum from nearly the beginning of Day two, around the time where we discussed a Copclaim.

I voted for UA because to me, it didn't matter in which order we lynch you two. I knew you were scum because of your Docclaim, and I did not believe the Copclaim.

[Dr. Doom]

I did not even notice the post of yours between mine. It was just that I wanted to get on with game.

[Dr. Doom]

Yap.

[Dr. Doom]

To explain further: I was so convinced on the NaR/UA scumpair, that I threw all securities (eg, my plan to clear riktus) in the wind and just decided to get it on. Maybe if I had just voted NaR and riktus would have voted him, too, then riktus and UA might have won it on Day 3 (I'd surely been dead by then, wouldn't I, Billy Twiscum?)

[Dr. Doom]

Mhm. I dunno if that counterclaim thing would have worked on me, but I would have been dead Day 3 anyway.

[Dr. Doom]

How does the average graph get calculated?

[Dr. Doom]

You still hate me Doom? I expect that if we are ever in a game together again you will probably random vote me, eh?

You betcha! I just made my wiki-entry. No, I don't really hate you - You played excellently, and beat me (the town) fair and square (you too, Now a Ranger!). It's just that I was so sure that I had won my first ever Online-mafia for a week or so, and that actually winning it was just a formality, when you suddenly posted "Game Over"! Damm, I was already telling my flatmate about my glorious win and got all excited and stuff, but - alas! - you decieved me.

@Mr. Flay - How do you gather these stats? Nice tool for working out Deadlines, too.