Newbie #518 - Trouble in Ees' Heaven (Game Over!)

[Petunho]

/confirming

I have a cunning plan... agaín

[Petunho]

Vote: DeadlyMan

I hate votes without explanation.

[Petunho]

@Shadoglare: Like NabNab said there is no reason to worry yet, 'cause you are only L-2.

I don't know if you noticed but stating that you are regular joe, you in my mind also stated that you don't have a powerrole. If you are thinking of claiming in the future, your first post didn't do any favor for its credibility.

Happy birthday to our Mod!

Lets have a cake...

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[Petunho]

Since when makes you less scummier to tell that you're not scum? If you tell you're a scum it makes you scummier, and if you tell you're innocent you're even scummier.

I'm not quite following the logic behind this one. Why would someone even tell that they are scum and why is that less scummy than stating your innocence. And if someone says he's scum that wont make him scummier but it makes him hmmm... a scum.

It depends on the situation where you state your innocence, if it makes you look scummier. If someone have good proof for innocence, it really doesn't make him look scummy. You cannot generalize that so, that every time I say I'm a townie, it makes me scummier.

This statement really looks like what ever I would say to proof my innocence, it would make me look more scummy in your eyes. Why are you trying to scare people not to defend them selves? Looking for easy lynch? Wanting people just to swallow your accusations without saying a word to safe them. Not liking this at all! Scummy logic from the start to the end!

I have a better place for my vote.

Unvote: DeadlyMan, Vote: Quitex

[Petunho]

So YOU thin k your logic is better than mine?
Thats sad because I didnt understood your logic.

Of course I think my logic on this case is better, why else would I have posted that. I'm not saying that my logic is bullet proof like MoS cleverly showed (unless he really is a scum).

Are you trying to confuse me?

No, I'm showing that your logic is false and that may be confusing to somebody.

Now If I would be looking for a quick lynch I would have put DeadlyMan on L-1. So, your logic fails... if thats wht you meant =_=

I didn't say you were looking for quick lynch. I said you were looking for

easy

lynch by making people think it's not a good thing to try proof their innocence because it would make them look scummy. So my logic doesn't fail because didn't meant what you thought I meant.

Do you really think that it's not never good thing to state

[Petunho]

@Petunho: That's some heavy stuff to be throwing out on Page 2. Essentially you're saying that the scumminess of claiming innocence varies from case to case (a wise observation), but for all intents and purposes, Shadoglare's opening post is a case where it's fairly scummy. QX might have been slightly out of line making a generalization. But "Scummy logic from start to finish"? it looks like someone's trying too hard.

I wasn't really attacking against QX's reasoning towards Shadoglare's townie statement. I was, like you said, attacking against that kind of generalization where QX states that it's never good thing to say you are innocent. I don't see any proper logic behind that, only scummy logic trying to make people avoid clearing their reputation saying they are innocent.

[Petunho]

I don't see any proper logic behind that, only scummy logic trying to make people avoid clearing their reputation saying they are innocent.

You talk about generalizations, then you throw this at me.

Do you or do you not agree that saying "Hey guys, I'm not scum!" is scummy?
Do you realize that that is not the only way to show innocence?

Yes it is scummy if you say only that sentence and don't back it up anyway. Like I said in earlier post:

It depends on the situation where you state your innocence, if it makes you look scummier.

If someone have good proof for innocence, it really doesn't make him look scummy.

You cannot generalize that so, that every time I say I'm a townie, it makes me scummier.

This is what I'm going after. If you give good proof for your innocence statement there is no reason to keep that scummy only because you have stated that you aren't a scum. In QX post he makes everything related to statement of one's own innocence scummy and that is not always true. Do you agree with this?

I myself haven't been talking just about one sentence like "I'm townie" I'm talking about the whole innocence proofing situation.

[Petunho]

Petunho, what proof, exactly, are you expecting people to be able to provide in their first posts of the game?

Like I have mentioned before in post 35 I didn't refer to Shadoglare's first post but I'm referring to the generalization QX made. I'm talking proofing your innocence in general during the game not about the proofs in the first post. To answer your question, no-one expects people to give proof of their innocence in their first post.

[Petunho]

I see a clear connection between these two quotes:

If you tell you're a scum it makes you scummier, and if you tell you're innocent you're even scummier.

he makes everything related to statement of one's own innocence scummy and that is not always true.

I don't see any twisting here. I say it with different words but that doesn't make it twisting QX's point. The point is there and it is what QX said. I'm standing behind my comments and opinion concerning QX's post.

I am fully ready to put him at L-1. What does everybody else have to say about this?

You are ready to put me L-1 but you don't vote me to put me L-2. Why is that? In addition you ask other peoples opinion before voting like wanting to test the ice with a stick to know if it safe to put that kind of vote without looking scummy. You know very well that putting somebody L-1 on the second page is very scummy move and you want to know if it possible to give that kind of vote and get away of it without looking scummy.

How I see this comment, is that you want to find a safe place to put your vote, where it's not questioned by other people. If you see me scummy enough to put me in the lynching range why aren't you putting me L-2? You are in my mind trying to lead people to vote me into L-2 and then you can give the L-1 vote because you have already stated that you can put me in that situation. L-2 vote is much easier to give than L-1 vote, and now that you have stated that you ready to give it, no-one wouldn't see it scummy.

[Petunho]

QX's point was "Just posting 'I'm Innocent' is pretty scummy"

You are saying his point was "Proving innocence is scummy"

It's the distiction we already made between posting and proving that you glossed over. Once we get further into the game and there's precedent to quote, there's nothing wrong with making an attempt at proving innocence, and QX fully realizes that and has said that, he just neglected to say it the first time.

Since when you have been able to read QX thoughts? I have made my opinion clear but QX didn't really comment those before couple of post ago. I have been arguing this case with you and from that QX's quoted post you cannot tell that he meant only "I'm innocent" type of posts. You can understand that also the way I'm understood it. QX did clarify his opinion at last and I'm glad to see that, but I would have hoped that clarification from him earlier.

And honestly, the specifics of this aren't what's the point. Even if you are absolutely right and QX was saying (in essence) "defensivness is scummy," it's not somthing to call "scummy logic from start to finish," it's a common mistake (and up for debate for some players). What piqued my interest was the violence with which you came down upon him.

Violence? Pretty strong word you selected, but you have a point there. I was going strong against him and I went strong against him because I believed in my opinion and I want to hear reaction from other player. You can ask people two ways to explain themselves: nicely or aggressively. Balancing between these two is the essence in this game. You have to know when to use nice posts and when aggressive posts. I choose aggressive style and if you see that scummy so be it, but often being a bitch gives better results from other people, you just have to know when to stop pushing the line.

[Petunho]

You know what happens here,

Pet

?

This is the first time I have countered to that name for me I would prefer Petu (nick name here in Finland) but be free to use the easiest for you. Pet - still laughing for that...

Hey, Im glad to see aggresive posters. Gives the spice to the game. But as I already stated today, what I disliked is the word game ou played with my quote. Being aggresive doesnt mean that you can do whatever shit you want to make with someone else's point.

I agree that twisting somebody's words to mean completely different thing is not part of aggressive playing. But I still stand behind my posted words, I saw your post as I have explained and I myself don't think I have twisted your point. I attacked you 'cause I saw your logic wrong. Now after explanation it seems I have misunderstood your point and I can move on.

And while I'll get loads of crap by doing this

Unvote: Quitex

Especially after GhostWriter wrote this one:

His continued defense at this point doesn't really mean to much, because at this point, if he stops defending himself, it will likely make him look even more suspicious in the eyes of most people.

I'll do it 'cause I believe I have really misunderstood QX's opinion and there for my accusations and vote don't have any ground anymore.

[Petunho]

I still think the first day is pretty random..

I don't agree with you. The start of the day is usually random but not the whole day. When people start posting more and more you can get a better image of their scumminess and then the randomness disappears. Of course the day would be completely random if nobody posted anything but that's not the case in this game. You shouldn't take that kind of attitude because it won't help us to hunt down the scums.

[Petunho]

Hmmm.. so what is the evidence we have so far?
Should those with "random" votes just jump on the one with the majority vote just to come to a decision?
*ponder*

What!!?? How stupid would that be! Not only because it's me who have the most votes, but just vote somebody because he have most votes atm is the most stupid reason to vote somebody! We are trying to find the scums here and that's noway of doing that. We haven't heard from people enough to make a decision yet.

[Petunho]

Vote: Shadoglare

I want a good explanation for your statement. How do you see that would be useful for the town to everyone to jump on? Are you yourself convinced that I'm the one to lynch today? We have had only couple of pages of discussion and at least I want to hear more from people before we go and jump to lynch someone with so stupid reason as you suggested.

[Petunho]

What just happened! We have two persons on L-1 and we are on the edge of lynch.

-MoS any explanation for your vote? (Still not loving votes without explanation)
-Everybody glad with their votes?
-GW why vote QX L-1?

I would like to hear Shado's explanation for his post so don't be hasty with your votes. I trust NabNab ain't giving a hasty vote but I hope that no-one gets jumpy with their vote.

[Petunho]

Like I have stated before my vote against you wasn't valid anymore 'cause it based on misunderstanding and you being L-1 doesn't make it any valid at the moment. So I don't see any reason to give you the final vote, you really aren't on top of my scummylist.

Shadoglare is the most scummy and my vote stands. He have tried to hurry this day several times and the last post tried to make somebody (me) lynched just 'cause he had then the most votes. And earlier he had stated "Pet is on my "suspected innocent" list". Why so sudden change of mind? From probably innocent to lynch him 'cause he have the most votes, not liking this moodiness of his at all. This sounds a nervous-scum-bell in my head. Can you hear it?

Other person I'm vary of is MoS. He have had almost zero proper posts and suddenly he appears an gives vote without explanation at all. Give us your analyze/opinion of the situation I know you have one. You just cannot pop in and give votes without explaining them. Trying to live under the radar are you?

GhostWriter, I didn't expect you to give that kind of vote. And what is it with people not giving explanation for their votes! Explain yourself! This was your first vote and that's L-1 vote. You said you have some kind of base for your vote. Please give it to us or I'll personally keep you responsible of QX possible lynch.

Waiting for NabNab's analyze of the situation. Lighten us, please.

[Petunho]

I'm not under the radar at all.

Yes you are. You don't give us anything useful and when I want something you still deny giving me anything. If this isn't living under radar I don't know what is.

My vote does not require explanation. This is not rocket science, people. It's pretty clear if you just read the post that caused my vote.

Great way to make people make their opinion of your vote by them self and not giving the reason yourself.

We are living in a yellow öh...under the radar.

Where would we get if everybody just voted and said 'It's doesn't need explanation'. Not only I wanted the explanation for your vote I would also like to see some kind of analyze of the situation. Don't expect people to be able to read your thoughts.

[Petunho]

Thanks for NabNab for making sense in this mess.

As an experienced player who has played with MoS before, I can get what he's driving at (and it's really not all that difficult for those of you playing dumb out there), but he's still not being a very good IC. I would be gratified by more out of him simply on a policy level and also noting that a scum-IC has far less incentive to provide the town with good tips.

This was pretty much what I was also going after. The games I have played/watched the IC usually try to make post like you have done and MoS refusal to do that must have some kind of reason. It's easy to dodge the questions like he have, saying it's obvious, but it doesn't make him look very good in my eyes.

Hmmm.. so what is the evidence we have so far?
Should those with "random" votes just jump on the one with the majority vote just to come to a decision?
*ponder*

Suspicous? Yes. Consistent? Also yes. The only thing I've seen Shadoglare do in this thread (besides opening with an "I'm not scum" post) is openly press for a quicklynch. Is this scummy? To a point. Scum generally want a quicklynch, but leaving WIFOM out of the equation, they're not going to try for one on a meta. I would really be inclined to chalk this up more to newbiness/impatience rather than manevolence.

This behaviour have been continues from Shado like I also stated, but it doesn't make any favor for town to try to rush things. I myself see this more scummy than newbiness, he have been told several times that rushing things isn't a good thing and still he continues to do so.

Then he (QX) goes on to say that Petunho is his second subject of suspicion. Meaning that (if you take him at his word) he has just allowed his vote to be directed almost entirely by someone who he strongly suspects to be scum?

This is weird. I didn't think this that way, but if he really thought I was scum why did he even think I would accuse on my scumbuddy? When I think somebody is scum I valuate carefully their sayings and doesn't take granted anything they say. Odd thinking by QX.

Then we have a gem from Petunho complaining that there are two people at L-1, but neglecting to do anything about it. He has the power to unvote, to maybe prevent a quicklynch. There is no rational reason why this town should have two seperate people stuck at L-1. It's just inviting a quicklynch. All 6 of you have it in your power to end this.

I was thinking of unvoting, but because of the voting situation then I didn't. Let me clarify my thinking. Vote situation was following.

Shadoglare - 3 (DeadlyMan, Petunho, Quitex)
Quitex - 3 (Shadoglare, GhostWriter, Mastermind of Sin)
Petunho - 1 (NabakovNabakov)

On the edge of lynching were Shado and QX. Who could lynch them in this situation?

Lets take QX first:
Person to lynch him could be NabNab, DeadlyMan, QX himself and me. I knew i wasn't going to lynch him, QX surele not, I trusted you NabNab that you wouldn't give the last vote. Only person I was a bit vary of was DeadlyMan, but he had stated he had good place for his vote so I didn't see reason to unvote. Pressure on person gets them speak more and more and then there might slip something unintended.

Shadoglare's situation:
Person to lynch him was GhostWriter, Mastermind of Sin, Shadoglare and NabNab. Twofirstly mentioned wouldn't lynch him 'cause they already had the chance to do so and they didn't. Shado wouldn't lynch himself and again I trusted you NabNab to keep your vote on me and not to make rushed decisions. So no danger on this side then.

Like I said, L-1 puts so musch pressure on person and they have to talk and that was what I was after for. Maybe there were risk in this but I didn't see it too dangerous.

QX then posts a defense that comes off a tad nervous. Followed by a Petunho post that dumps suspicion on both people voting for QX. This comes out in particular:

Please give it to us or I'll personally keep you responsible of QX possible lynch.

Like I have stated I hate votes without explanation and both votes on QX came without giving one. That's why I attacked them. I wanted clarification for their votes. I didn't say they were on wrong tracks, I just want to be informed why certain things happen.

[Petunho]

Hmmm.. so what is the evidence we have so far?
Should those with "random" votes just jump on the one with the majority vote just to come to a decision?
*ponder*

What!!?? How stupid would that be! Not only because it's me who have the most votes, but just vote somebody because he have most votes atm is the most stupid reason to vote somebody! We are trying to find the scums here and that's noway of doing that. We haven't heard from people enough to make a decision yet.

@Pet, clarification on your state of mind in this post would be helpful. Also, when did your vote switch from pressure to lynching and why?

Clarification on it's way. I was shocked to read this post from Shado, because it made no sense and obviously 'cause the target was me without any proper base for the targeting. Shado's post have some kind of newbmistake sound in it, but I also saw it scummy way to propose people to make hasty votes on me. Even one vote could have been enough to scums to lynch me and it made me nervous. I thought about voting him already in this post (in the morning) but I decided to think it a bit more and gave the pressure vote in post 75 (in the evening) to get really Shado thinking of his post.

I didn't expect no-one to vote Shado in L-1 situation, but when I the next time logged in there was already to people at L-1. I was surprised of the situation (and of course relieved that one of the L-1 persons wasn't me) and if I would have logged in earlier and seen only QX L-1 vote (and not MoS's and GW's votes that put also QX L-1 situation) I would have unvoted 'cause there were too many uncasted votes atm and it would have been too big threat for me not to get answers from Shado. But because I came back when it was two people on L-1, I checked the voting situation and came to the conclusion I mentioned in post 101. I didn't think there really was a clear lynching danger and I saw the situation good way of getting people talk and it gives a good way to see peoples voting actions. Yes it was risky, I admit that, but because everyone is still alive my conclusion of the situation was right.

Did it clarify my thoughts for you NabNab?

[Petunho]

Let's get this thing going again. DeadlyMan's lurking through the game have caught my eye and it doesn't please me at all. He's going unnoticed 'cause his non-posting play. No replies from him in two pages and no comments concerning this double L-1 situation.

Unvote: Shadoglare, Vote: DeadlyMan

Couple of notes to make from the voting situation while ago. In my mind we have cleared two things based on the voting: QX - GW and QX - Shado cannot be scum pairs. Okay, it's possible but highly unlikely to scums to vote each other L-1 situation. Do you agree? Let's keep this in mind in the future.

For me it's a complete mystery who's our scum and just as my first newbie game ended and it turned out that two most protown looking guys were the scums, I'm even more confused. I have beginning to think that the best way of scumhunting is to follow with great interest the voting situation. Who votes who and when. Especially L-1 situations are most interesting and clarifying. That's why I hope everyone looks again the voting situation (I mean the double L-1 situation) and thinks why somebody voted somebody or not voted.

[Petunho]

We aren't at L-1. We're at L-2, and the scum aren't going to be so hasty that they would lynch right away on Day 1. That would expose them. So we can't clear any scumpairs yet, because we don't have enough data.

A bit confusion here about what I meant. I didn't mean the voting situation at the moment but I meant this situation couple of pages back when we were on this situation:

Shadoglare - 3 (DeadlyMan, Petunho, Quitex)
Quitex - 3 (Shadoglare, GhostWriter, Mastermind of Sin)
Petunho - 1 (NabakovNabakov)

Where the L-1 votes for Shado and QX was given by QX and GW. Was it likely to scums to put his buddy in L-1, I doubt it. How do you see this MoS?

Interesting point this one, he is Stating that I am scum. are you really really sure that I am scum? My name apearing in both of those situations make me very uncomfortable.

No I'm not sure you are scum and your name only appears there 'cause the voting situation mentioned above. I only stated that those aren't probable scumpairs, meaning that if one of them is scum the other isn't and vice versa.

[Petunho]

After re-re-re-reading the posts I getting bad vibes from GW's playing and he has also went lurking.

Unvote: DeadlyMan, Vote: GhostWriter

[Petunho]

This is perhaps the scummiest time possible to conduct a lurker hunt.

I don't agree with this. I don't see this time any scummier to hunt down scummy looking players (=lurkers) than other time. I don't want anyone to go unnoticed so that someone can avoid first day's lynch just because he isn't participating. And to clarify, I didn't base my vote against GW solely on because he's lurking. Vote against DeadlyMan was complete lurker hunt, that I admit, and changed my vote when he came alive.

[Petunho]

@ Pet: You're very very defensive and pointing fingers here and there.

To go back on this comment. Yes, I'm pointing fingers here and there but not without reason, but I don't know where you got this 'very very defensive' thing. In the start of the game I was accused of aggressiveness and now it's turned into defensiveness. Could you clarify where this comes from.

Good, you suspect me from bad vibes. That's wonderful, because that's my main reason for suspecting you. You seem to be playing very randomly, throwing votes around like a kid trying to skip rocks on a pond. Half the time, there's very little for you to be basing them off of, though I do admire you as you attempt to justify your votes.

Shall we start to talk you reasons to vote? Your first and only vote was against QX, that also was L-1 vote. It was based on your guts saying that me and QX are scumbuddies. How good reason is that, especially for L-1 vote? Not at all better than my vote against you, that was L-3 vote. Both was based on guts, where my vote is merely getting attention risen also against you, your vote put somebody in the edge of lynch.

I'd vote for you now, however, I don't feel like having it look like an OMGUS vote. So, for now, I'll leave a FOS on you and just wait for a bit.

Scummy.

[Petunho]

I'd vote for you now, however, I don't feel like having it look like an OMGUS vote. So, for now, I'll leave a FOS on you and just wait for a bit.

Scummy.

@ Petu's last statemet: Care to elaborate?

This is scummy move from GW not to get attention drawn into himself. Saying I'm worthy his vote and then not voting 'cause it would get the spotlight on him. This is game he have been playing today; trying to go unnoticed and making this kind of statements.

Confirm vote: GhostWriter

@Pet: I have no problems with prodding lurkers, just hunting them to pull pressure off yourself. Instead of requesting a prod, you went straight for a vote, why? What would you have done if DeadlyMan had never posted?

I don't see this the way of getting attention away from me, on the contrary voting gets attention more to me than it gets on on the voted people. If people are lurking and following the discussion and not participating by posting, they will notice the vote on them and it's difficult to ignore it. Prodding is good way too, but by voting we get to know that both of people I voted were truly lurking and not forgotten the game. Good to know, don't you agree. If DM had never posted I would probably asked for prod (and voted, depending the voting situation).

[Petunho]

@Petu: You have some very convoluted ideas about attention and focus. How is asking for clarification on an accusation trying to reduce attention? Wouldn't it just prolong the affair?

Are you referring to my QX/GW/Petu quote in my previous post. There QX asked for the clarification and I gave it to him. GW wasn't asking for explanation it was QX. This was QX's post

"@ Petu's last statemet: Care to elaborate?"

Did you misread my post or did I misunderstood yours?

Even the rest of your statement indicates that the goal was to focus attention on the person being voted.

Yes it was, but it also puts me on the spotlight as well. I was also just referring to this case, it wasn't universal truth.

Please clarify the situations under which you would or would not have voted.

If somebody haven't posted anything and there have been ~3 days since game started and nobody hasn't asked for prod and/or voted on him, I would ask for prod and vote on the person.

[Petunho]

And that is probably my last vote for this day. If I see someone else as scummy, I can save that vote for day 2.

Can I have the reasons why you see me scummy? You have talked all the time how I look scummy but you haven't given us any reason why is that! Also determining your vote like that is not good for the town. You have to be a scum or very antitown townie, either way you aren't helping town at all with your playing. Am I really alone with this opinion?

[Petunho]

That's wonderful, because that's my main reason for suspecting you. You seem to be playing very randomly, throwing votes around like a kid trying to skip rocks on a pond. Half the time, there's very little for you to be basing them off of, though I do admire you as you attempt to justify your votes.

Um, she already gave the reasons, Petu. I dont know if you're expecting anything else.

My mistake then, but that hardly seems (to me at least) a reason to give permanent vote. I have been throwing votes around to get discussion going on but my targets haven't been random. I have given every vote based on something that I see scummy and if GW doesn't agree with my opinion on votes, that doesn't make my votes wrong.

PS. Hoping to hear from MoS.

[Petunho]

Would you put lurker/inactive GW at L-1? Would you lynch him?

I'm not willing to lynch or even putting somebody L-1 just for their lurking/inactiveness. That would stupid move to make just based on lurking, there have to be something else behind that kind of votes. Lurking is scummy but just based on that it's very hard to lynch somebody. Of course situations are unique but in general this is my opinion.

You were talking especially about GW, and like I have mentioned, my suspicion against him isn't solely based on his lurking. If he goes lurking, I want him to come back to answer the questions before giving those critical votes. There's no mind (only scummymind would do this) of lynching somebody before he gets his speak. And again it depends the situation, but in general I would say this.

Probably, he's done a lot of scummy things and activity is no excuse, but I could see cases on GW or yourself winning my vote. One thing that is seriously holding me back is how well a scumpair between you and him would work. Do you realize how obvious you are when you jump to each other's defense?

Good point again from NabNab. Activity is one thing to follow but don't make final decision based on that. Yes, I tried to bring this discussion alive 'cause I really don't want to see deadline, which would pressure us to make hasty decisions. Deadline would get people talking but there are better ways for the town to get talking going again. Active players are good for the game, but scums are also often the active ones.

This scumpair thingy is one of my favorites. Thinking possible scumpairs and how they have played and interacted is very interesting and important thing to think.

Who have had distancing between them, who have hardly commented each others posts, who have voted who, how certain players react to each other.

Many things to think. Let's all think these things from our own perspective.

Here have been flying much things around lately and no-one cannot say they have nothing to add to this discussion. Pointing at you Shado, DeadlyMan and MoS.

[Petunho]

Well, I cast my vote ages ago and haven't changed my mind. Frankly I'm waiting for others to either make up their minds or to say something that convinces me I'm wrong (or at the least makes me suspect a second scum). Until then I'm not sure if there's much else I can contribute...

How about trying to convince others to support your vote. IF you think you are right you should try to prove it to rest of us and not just wait others do the job for you. I try to activate you then:

Why are you voting QX? Have you even thought voting somebody else? Don't you see GW'sactions at least strange? Why are you just waiting everybody else do the job?

[Petunho]

Hello everybody! Don't kill our thread!

Mod: Can we have prod on DeadlyMan... again.

You may live in awkward time zone, but that's no reason to have this low activity. You can post here when ever suits you best and make analyzis whenever during the day. More activity please 'cause you aren't helping the town at all.

If you need questions to be answered or thoughts to think of here's some:

You haven't voted for anyone, why is that? Who is your main suspect at the moment? What do you think of my attack against GW? Why Shado tries to pass under the radar saying he have nothing to say? Am I trying to make people forget the twin L-1's? Does QX try to help me with that? Why would that be? NabNab have attacked me all day, is that strange or is it justified?

Have MoS cathed up yet? Waiting for Shado's answers.

[Petunho]

Something to you all to chew on for Christmas. First of all nobody here isn't looking townie enough not to be above my suspicion. Some are more scummy looking than others but nobody is even close to confirmed townie for me.

My thought so far on the players:

GhostWriter

: He's my top suspect atm, because his trying to go under the radar, style and content of his posts and the votes he have made. GW have given two votes, one L-1 without explanation before I asked for it, the second vote I almost had to drag out of him. He was ready to give L-1 vote quickly but he didn't want to give me vote after I accused him of scumminess fearing to get attention risen against him. Certain inconsistence with his voting habit that I don't like.

Other thing I don't like is how he goes lurking and explains it that he don't have anything to say and access problems. He haven't neither brought very little up and he have us very little content to work with, but he isn't the worst person on this matter here. And the most thing that bothers me, is the way he said that vote on me would be final vote from him today whatever happens during the rest of this day. Not helping the town at all with that.

DeadlyMan

: The lurking from DM pisses me off! 4 posts and we have played one month already and the last post from him was 10 days ago. If I only had a long stick to poke him with. Really, come on DeadlyMan, post or get replaced it really hampers our scum hunt. So, it have been very hard to read DM 'cause there really isn't much to read from him. Prod prod prod prod prod prod prod prod prod prod lynch.

QX

: Lots of posts from QX and I would say quite townie playing from him. Many things rosen up and much which I agree with, but there have been certain issues that prevents me to say he is townie. I'm following his actions very closely to make decision of his possible scumminess. His style to play indicates townie but some posts indicates scumminess. I have to read QX posts again, maybe tomorrow to make better read on him. He's in the gray area atm.

NabNab

: Most interesting player here. Looks townie, but like NabNab himself stated on other thread he likes to play scum and act like very protown player. This taken into consideration it's hard to say is NabNab really townie or not. Like I said earlier, in my last game the most protown players were the scums, so I'm not ready to give NabNab free pass. He have chasing me during the whole day, and I have to admit there have been reasons for him to do so. Part of the reason is that I have posted lot of content and there really is much to grab on. Good to have player that can analyze things deeply. Because MoS and NabNab have played together I really want to hear their opinion of each other (this requires that MoS also posts something for us to analyze for).

MoS

: What really I can say about him? Nothing to crab on, nothing to analyze, nothing that have helped the town, nothing that have risen my suspicion aka I don't have any read on him. His absence has been suspicious but nothing else to grab on.

Shado

: Little surprise for me too that I perceive Shado as most townie atm. He have made good points and his playing have been logical through the game. The posts that tried to hurry up the game looks for me a good way to get discussion going on and I really don't think first timer scum would state 'I'm townie' in the first post. He have good read on the game adn I liked his clarification on his thoughts of other players.

Scumpairs. Here's one that I have thought through my mind.

GW-NabNab

: This possible pair have been in my mind for quite a time now and in certain perspective this seems ridiculous, but sometimes this looks very possible pair. My attention rose 'cause the lack of interaction between these guys. Some minor mentions in their post about each other but nothing severe. Recently NabNab's posts have taken GW more to attention, so I'm not so sure about this pair anymore.

Maybe more of my thoughts tomorrow. Merry Christmas to all!

[Petunho]

I'll be leaving this evening on vacation and I'll be gone untill next thursday. Internet access is most likely zero during that time.

I hope you wont kill the thread when I'm away. I don't want to see that deadline hitting us when I'm gone. Just to mention, I'm still happy with my vote on GW.

Happy New Year to you all!

[Petunho]

Back from the Northern Finland. Oh, I love snow and winter swimming!

I try to look more closely on the posts in the next couple of days.

One question for the mod: Is DeadlyMan still around?

[Petunho]

Firstly: I'll also vote for DeadlyMan if he doesn't show up during this week.

You claim to want to "help the town", yet by pointing fingers at everyone else, you've narrowed it down to everyone else. If we were to go on what you've said, then it only narrows it down to not being you. I happen to find that to be very suspicious.

I'm pointing at lot of people to make everybody participate and hear their opinions. I think it's more protown to keep your scumrange as wide as possible than narrowing it just for one or two people and forgetting everybody else.

I like to poke on man people to see what are their opinions and how do they react. We have to collect as much information as possible and some people need to be poked to get reaction/opinion out of them - you for example. By throwing votes around I have in my mind made some kind of scummylist. So it have helped at least me to determine better who the scums are.

As for my vote being my final vote for the day, it doesn't help YOU, but it helps the town

if

my suspicions are right.

IF

I need to know everyone's answer: Why do you think it will be a better idea to vote me out rather than SG? than Petu? than NabNab? than MoS? than GW?

Than SG - Cause I see SG more protown player than you and your emotional playing style could lead us to quicklynch tomorrow (not likely but possible).

Me - Uh, yeah.

NabNab - NabNab has given me more protown feeling than you and his analyzes are more logical than yours. He contributes to the game very much.

MoS - He has cunning style to see peoples play and spot things. He has more to give us than you and I see him more protown than you now that he has started to post.

GW - Difficult one. If you made some drastic scummy move you had to go before GW.

[Petunho]

Sorry for my absence.

Wait tell me when SG has been

(more)

protown

(than me)

and why erasing MoS's lurking posting style all of a sudden because he decided to come back?

And can you tell me, why did you want to an answer to your (in my mind kind disturbing) question? Why did you ask that kind of very hypothetic question where you aren't in no danger of getting lynched? Why did you try to draw attention to yourself and getting people look more closely to your actions and try to really look for scumminess from you?

When MoS came back his posts have been in my mind good and enlightening. Yes, he lurked a bit but now, that he's back and have given us good points to think about, I'm not willing to lynch him before you. That's my opinion now and things might change.

Why SG have been more protown than you? He have made good questions, provoked discussion and in my mind been quite logic in his actions. You on the other hand gave an hasty L-1 vote, drawed it back when you were in danger of getting lynched and appealed to emotion to somebody else to draw their vote back. Not liking that kind of shiftiness. Some inconsistence in your actions during this game, especially concerning your opinion of me.

[Petunho]

So, we have about a day to make the decision. I hope that we can come to a conclusion who we shall lynch and not going no-lynch into the night.

To state here the only thing I'm sure, I'm not willing to vote NabNab off today. I'll try look and read the entire thread through tomorrow and see if there is reason to change my vote.

[Petunho]

And where is Petu, btw?

Sorry about my absence, especially when I said I would re-read everything. After I had posted my last post, my computer's HD said "Puff" and that's why didn't get to chance to look things up again before the night.

Why MoS? Did he make some posts where he indicated the real scums? Are the scums trying to lead us to wrong direction with their kill?

I recomend that everybody looks at yesterday's voting situations again and remembers that MoS and GW are townies. I have found one suspicious thing about those votings and I'll elaborate that today or more likely tomorrow.

[Petunho]

Damn! I wrote my post 2 hours and then site crashed... I'll write it again tomorrow.

[Petunho]

And here I go again hoping the best...

I mentioned that people should look at the voting situations in the previous day. I personally interested in this voting situation (confirmed townies bolded):

Shadoglare - 3 (DeadlyMan, Petunho, Quitex)
Quitex - 3 (Shadoglare,

GhostWriter

,

Mastermind of Sin

)
Petunho - 1 (NabakovNabakov)

And I also want to quote this one:

Couple of notes to make from the voting situation while ago. In my mind we have cleared two things based on the voting:

QX - GW and QX - Shado

cannot be scum pairs. Okay, it's possible but highly unlikely to scums to vote each other L-1 situation. Do you agree? Let's keep this in mind in the future.

So if QX is scum Shado isn't and vice versa. Both can be also townies but I doupt that. When we add to these facts that NabNab has been L-2 quite a time and he isn't lynched. I would say that QX is a scum.

FOS: Quitex

. I'm not voting before more discussion has been created and I'm more secure about my vote. Are you still happy with your vote QX?

If QX-NabNab is scumbuddy this is a great way to distance each other and they win any way. If NabNab gets lynched (and turns out to be a scum) QX looks very good and I can also see the scenario where QX jumps out when second vote is casted shouting "What a hell, don't put him L-1 just yet" and turns against the voter and also NabNab jumps on the wagon accusing the voter on the same thing. Quite a scenario but I could see that being true, especially 'cause scums had the time to discuss their strategy during the night and this would be one thing they decided to do.

I also am greatly suspicious against NabNab not because he has acted scummily, but just the opposite. So pure townie moves, that makes me uneasy. Especially when he had mentioned in other threat that he acts protown when he's scum. I can see that NabNab wanted MoS to go 'cause he had the best look at his playing style and killing him of it helped NabNab's life quite a bit.

On the other hand his logic has been good to my eye, especially the unvoting previous day which lead to GW's lynching. He's right that lynch was much better decision that No-lynch would have been.

1) Nab is scum and no-one wants to hammer

Nobody cannot yet hammer him. He's only L-2.

2) Quitex is scum and the townies are being nice and cautious by not dropping a second vote (although his scump coulda done this by now, to bandwagon the hell out of Nab)

I can see this, but also can see that scums are cautios not to raise any attention against themselves. Who have been going under radar during the whole time? Shado and CallMeLiam (=CML). That could also be a cautios scumpair we are looking for. They just wait and see if somebody gives the second vote and then hammers. This 'cause they both are quite unactive and cannot be sure that both are online on the same time to quick hammer NabNab.

Also our confirmed and NK'ed townie MoS attacked Shado in the first time and Shado wanted him to breath more easily on this day. Did MoS get you worried, Shado? Or why not?

3)The scum are asleep.

I agree that this isn't the case.


I would like to hear CML's answers to these NabNab's questions:

I'm actually liking Shadowglare a bit more after my last read through.

Elaborate

NabNab's quick vote on me simply because I was on GW looks bad to me.

Elaborate

Oh, and I still likes me some Pentunho.

Elaborate (Specifically, do you like him as a player or as a target? I have a hard time telling from the syntax)

So here we are. Let's find those bastards, shall we?

[Petunho]

Based on these observations, if QX is scum, Shadoglare is bussing him. But here's a fun fact. Shadoglare voted QX on Page One and didn't remove or change his vote the entire day. He consistently placed QX at the top of his scumlist and didn't even unvote (despite having the opportunity iirc) when QX was at L-1. If that's distancing, it's hardcore.

I agree and when you add to this the fact that QX put Shado L-1 I'm positive they aren't scumbuddies.

NabNab wrote this one:

A scumgroup of CallMeLiam and QuiteX seems to be most likely. Comments?

And imediately QX wrote this one:

So by now I think Callmeliam is the one wh may be the scummiest of all you three, disgusting people! But, we dont know.

Looks suspicious to me that QX, right after NabNab introduced QX-CML scumpair, puts suspicion on CML. Looks a bit like distancing to me...hmm

@ Petu: In a NabNab being scum situation, who do you think would be the scumpair, and why?

Like a stated before, I would put my money on you being his partner. I had the scenario where you two ahd planned this days actions which I explained in my previous post.

Also, why would you think as NabNab as a town?

NabNab has been very active when talking about scumhunting and taking the action to question people. His logic has been almost flawless the entire game and the way he has palyed pleases me. And this is also why I really don't understand why you people call him being under radar. He has been one of the most vocal palyers in this game and hasn't feared to present his opinions. The only ones who have been under radar are DeadlyMan/CML and Shado.

I'm not sure who the summies are yet, but so far I suspect those who are probably *not* include GhostWriter and possibly Pet. I was thinking of adding Mastermind as well, until I saw in one post him saying he was one of the scummies - thus I don't know if this was meant to be a joke because he's a townie, or some kind of "reverse psychology" meaning that he's a scummy but hoping that because he's saying he's a summy we'll think he isn't.

This looks very suspcious to me! Shado listed in early game two confirmed townies as townies and also added me (who I know being town also). Coincidence, I don't think so. I think Shado was trying to suck up the townies and he (and also CML) have continued to try to buddy up with me.

So NabNab' mentioned QX-CML as possible scumpair. Could be, could be. But I can also see Shado-CML and QX-Shado but heeey wait a second! That last scumpair is NOT possible! So that leaves me with those two firstly mentioned pairs (QX-CML and Shado-CML) and in both of them we have CML! His predecessor was a huge lurker and CML came to repalce him and I'm not seeing much protown playing here. Because I'm seeing NabNab protown it comes down to this: the possible couples are QX-CML and Shado-CML so, it's pure logic . CML must be scum -->

VOTE: CallMeLiam

[Petunho]

I'm not quite willing to call a QX-Shado pair impossible (I could see Shado taking pre-game advice to distance extremely literally or fearing a connection for removing his vote at a critical point), but it is certainly the least likely.

But how possible do you see that 'QX - the scum' would put 'Shado - the QX's scumbuddy' in L-1 by giving the third vote on Shado in post #76. I really cannot see this happening and that'sthe main reason I see that QX-Shado pair is impossible.

[Petunho]

That being said, some things have a much higher trajectory than others, and I would be willing to completely agree with you if you were to term a QX-Shado pairing "extremely unlikely" or some such phrase. I just can't call it impossible.

'Impossible' was a bit too radical word to use I agree with that, but I would still say I'm 99% sure that they aren't scumbuddies. That's is why I'm so convinced that my vote is on the right person.

[Petunho]

I wont make any comments about the SG/QX - CML/QX scumbuddyness or whatever, unless we start including other possibilities. My question is, if I'm included in both of the possibilities, wouldn't be more intelligent to target me first?

Reading is tech:

So NabNab' mentioned QX-CML as possible scumpair. Could be, could be. But I can also see Shado-CML and

QX-Shado

but heeey wait a second!

That last scumpair is NOT possible!

So that leaves me with those two firstly mentioned pairs (QX-CML and Shado-CML) and in both of them we have CML!

His predecessor was a huge lurker and CML came to repalce him and I'm not seeing much protown playing here. Because I'm seeing NabNab protown it comes down to this:

the possible couples are QX-CML and Shado-CML

so, it's pure logic . CML must be scum -->

How on Earth did you read that so, that you are included in both possibilities.

[Petunho]

Petunho's "logic" in choosing me as certain scum is laughable. You'd been doing so well! Shado and QX had been bussing one another all day one, so they can't be scum, but when I pipe up and voice my suspicion of QX when he actually starts to act scummy then I get voted? Voted during LYLO no less. Poor poor form there old chap.

My logic is based on the two 'facts' which I belive is true. One is NabNab isn't scum and that QX&Shado isn't scumbuddies. That leaves me the only option that you have to be one of the scums. This is pure logic from my side and I believe it 100%.

So, for the sake of the town win, please, vote for NabNab. He is the option to go, and if he's not, I'll take the blame for it.

Whaaat? We mislynch now and the game is over, the fact that you take the blame doesn't help a bit. A lost game is a lost game. You are really trying to push NabNab's lynch with appeal to emotion. No pure logic there and your case against NabNab is so clearly on a very thin base.

A scumgroup of CallMeLiam and QuiteX seems to be most likely. Comments?

I agree! After that comment both of them have really taken you the target and tried really push the lynch. They got scared, they paniced, they got hasty, they blew their cover. Guilty!

This comes to make my guess of Shadoglare being scum more likely, having me believing that SG and NabNab are more likely to be scum buddies.

So, the only option left in your mind is that I lynch NabNab. That's not gonna happen unless cop stands out and says he got guilty investigation of NabNab. Cop had investigated someone during the night and just like somebody said he probably got innocent result or he investigated MoS. CML said that both the doc and cop should stay undercover, but I would say that now is the time of claiming, if either one of those two (NabNab/CML) is cop or doc.

To conclude this: It's up to you Shado to make the right decision! Don't make a hasty decision. Think the cases against both of them and don't fear to question people at this point. We have plenty of time left to talk things clear. Make the right decision!

[Petunho]

Damn! And we had it cracked open with NabNab already! I would had hoped that Shado would have talked a bit before voting, but what is done is done.

Would you, NabNab, had claimed Cop if Shado would had said you were the most likely target for him to vote?

Nice game overall. Explanation of my actions should be in place. I received a Doc-role and 'cause I haven't played a Doc before I had to think a new playing strategy. As a Doc I had a night decision and I was determined not to get killed or lynched during the first day/night. The best strategy for this was to look scummy enough not to get scums to lynch me in the first night but townie enough to be spared from the lynching mob during the game. So I made extra effort to get that scummy vibe comingout of me, that would not been the case if I would have been a a vanilla townie.

I played my first game with BattleMage who is an aggressive player and I basically ripped of some of his tactics by playing rather aggressive and making his style of comments. Throwing my votes around, questoning people aggresive style and pissing people during the day was a selected strategy for me to get that scummy look on me. In the same time had to be logical enough and be carefull not to get carried away with my aggressiveness, so that I wouldn't get lynched. It was quite a balancing between those two but I think I carried it out pretty well.

Petunho: Very nice play. That I had difficulty reading you is good, ambiguity is essential to playing Doc in the daytime. I think I had just been startled by how aggressive you were out the gate. Sorry for voting you practically all of D1.

Thanks! This proves my strategy was some kind of correctly executed and I was glad that I got voted and somebody kept bringing up my possible scumminess. That maybe influenced so that I didn't got killed during the night. So, no hard feelings from that vote.

Thank you all for a good game, and sorry for the rough time I gave you on Day 1 Petunho.

I got what I ordered - a rough time. Sono hard feelings here and hopefully not ther neither. And sorry about the lynch.

I enjoyed the game and I'm very glad that I was correct in the end although it didn't end up town to win the game. I was correct on the QX/Shado case and the analyze of the double L-1 situation hit also the target. Too bad I didn't convince Shado enough to vote for CML. In the end I was thinking of claiming Doc to get more acceptance on my accusation towards CML but came too conclusion that it wouldn't had helped. Would that affected your decision Shado?

I myself enjoyed NabNab's style and your firm analyzes. I got all the time during the game pro-town vibes, but just like I said in my last game two most protown players turned out to be scums, so I was a bit sceptical towards you. I'm also glad that I made the right decision to protect you in the first night.

QXs playing was hard to get a grip of, but yesterday evening writing my previous post I looked the case you and CML had piled against NabNab and that was on such a thin base. I should have pointed that out more clearly... hmph. Pretty nice game from scums driving the bandwagons in both days. Right lynch today (CML) would in my mind lead to town to win in the next day. I would have protected NabNab again, but who would NabNab investigated and who would QX got killed/roleblocked?

Nice game and I hope to see you in other games!