Newbie 573: The Bourne Identity - Game Over!

[cicero]

/confirm!

[cicero]

I think it's love.

Vote MSK

for doom confirming. How dare he! My mom was doom confirmed. Have you no couth? Or did you not THINK of that!!??

[cicero]

And oh yeah...

FOS

to Cat Herder for that blatant OMGUS. An inauspicious debut, sir!

[cicero]

Yep. That's us.

[cicero]

Re-submitting.vote

MSK

[cicero]

true. Sorry.

Vote MSK

Lordie. My own inauspicious debut! Where are the rest of you guys?

[cicero]

Hallo!

As you've likely caught on by now, this early stage is known as random voting stage. Everyone usually casts a vote based on little or no information, (because there's little or no information to be had) and discussion proceeds from there. Just because there's little infomation doesn't mean there's none though. Try to figure out what you can already deduce from people's "random" choices.

While we're waiting for some of you to pop in and do or (re-do) your votes, some questions:

1. How many of you have played mafia online before.
2. How many of you play it in real life at parties or with a werewolf cardgame or whatever, but have never played it before?
3. How many of you would know what we meant if we said WIFOM?
4. How did you stumble on mafiascum.net?

Also, just so you know, The typical length of a newbie game in real days is going to be somewhere between one to two real world months.
When you get past the newbie game stage a lot of people on this site, like myself and Adel, choose to play in more than one game at once thereby giving you more to do each real life day and helping you stay engaged.

Anyway, try to post at least once per real life day or more (more is good!) and treat the game as a commitment. It's a lot more fun that way.

Flaking/Quitting: If you're ever thinking of quitting, first, please don't. Just post pointed questions and accusatons instead. Stir the pot.

If you do decide you dont want to play anymore, please send a message to the mod so we dont have to spend four days guessing about where you went. It's just courtesy. Just because it's the internet and you're anonymous, doesn't mean you have to be a douche.

[cicero]

@Oierw - Why did you FOS us and not vote? Scared to commit? What should that tell me about your alignment?

@Cat Herder - Serious about voting Adel... do you generally think it's a good idea to just vote the people who vote for you, first? Let's see.

Unvote. Vote Cat Herder

. Why would he do that, what would that tell you about his alignment?

@all - Do you think Lord_Hur is trying to be my buddy buddy? Why would he do that? What does that tell you about his alignment?

By the way, I love cats. Does that mean I'm scum with Cat Herder?

This is WIFOM

Answer my questions, plz.

[cicero]

@Lord_Hur

Re: WIFOM, that's it exactly.

On the other question, how do I know you don't know my alignment? Scum in this setup know everyone's alignment.

(not trying to actually diminish your thank you btw. You're welcome.)

[cicero]

@Oierw - Fair point. Do you have any reason to think ICs are more likely scum?

[cicero]

On the other question, how do I know you don't know my alignment? Scum in this setup know everyone's alignment.

Hmm you answered your own question :/ only by being scum you would know that i'm townie, and thus don't know your alignment.

Now my brain hurts. That's my point. You may "know" you're townie but I don't. your sarcastic answer to me with the rolling eyes included the statement that you don't even know my alignment. But I have no way of knowing whether you know my alignment or not. That's all.

[cicero]

No worries.

[cicero]

Oh Adel, you crazy robot you.

Unvote. Vote Adel

Arent you playing it just a little close to your vest right now?

[cicero]

Get out.

[cicero]

Oh, btw cicero, you didnt answer yuor own questions... Obviously n° 3 is superfluous, but I'd like to hear about the others...

I'm going last. Otherwise I'll spoil the answers.

[cicero]

Just do a topic search and look it up. My record is pretty good so far i think, but I dont really pay attention to record because it's such a team effort. I'm quite competent as town or scum though.

[cicero]

Haha. That's ok.

The idea behind asking my questions - that arent related to anyone's guilt or innocence - was just to get an idea of how new the players really were. When you said you wanted my answers above I thought you were meaning my "suspicion based" questions. Those are the ones I wanted to wait to answer.

In terms of my experience questions:

1. Ive played lots of mafia before.
2. Only online.
3. I know WIFOM
4. an old girlfriend told me about mafia games. Then I found mafiascum.net off the wikipedia link.

[cicero]

No actually. I didnt ask those questions for strategic reasons at all. And would have asked them as scum. I asked them so I could gauge my play explanations. I didnt want to be patronising if you guys were all on, or mostly on, third newbie games, or were experienced players from other sites or from offline. I didnt want to assume anything about experience level, basically.

The things I've done as pro-town are ask a bunch of questions to get people talking. But Im still waiting for some of our co-players to show up and get involved. The more time it takes them to do so the more I'll assume they have something to hide.

[cicero]

- How do you know someone is not posting because he has something to hide, as opposed to having a natural tendency to be reserved, trying to not get attention cause he has a power role, or even having a busy period IRL ?

Adel is right. So, I often check to see if someone is busy elsewhere on the site. But I also pester and harass people into posting if I can. I have a certain reputation here for loathing lurkers. I also dont just raise up my hands and give up if someone say's they're busy at home. That'll do for a bit, but ultimately if you cant invest time in a game, you should get replaced. And on more than one occasion someone has claimed "busy" and turned up scum. The trick, I guess, is deciding whether your gut tells you they are telling the truth. Scum DO have an instinctive natural tendency to post less, because you can screw up in any post. Posting means attention to you, and attention to you means more scrutiny and scrutiny can up your chance of finding yourself at the end of a hangman's noose. So looking at the people who are hesitant to post or overly cautious is a good thing imho.

Also, you mention power roles. As a power role, you might think the best thing you can do is just not post, but that's not always good strategy. When I'm scum, I'll often shoot a really quiet player at night simply because it doesnt leave much trail. I call it "shooting in the corner". Being quiet can make you more conspicuous in some ways.

But all of this is contextual. There's no right move and wrong move. You just need to look at the game as you see it, size up the other players, and make the best moves your brain can think of under the circumstances.

[cicero]

Hey MSK - you still in the game?

[cicero]

My attempts to generate conversation have been blocked by invisible sludge.

[cicero]

Musher can you comment on the suspicion questions I put forward? Out of those options and given the play in the game, who already feels scummy to you. and why?

[cicero]

What about his responses? Are they consistent with your theory?

[cicero]

Adel, who's more likely to be scum, Lordhur or Musher? No reasons please for now.

[cicero]

Yup.

[cicero]

@cierco- i guess when i have reread lord_hurs posts he has covered his mistakes with good answers, i dont know why but i just have a hunch that he is scum, he may not be i just have a feeling.

Can you expand on this line of thought? What are his good answers, why are they good, and what makes posts gave rise to your feeling?

Why didnt you answer my question when I posed it to you... but are in like a jackrabbit once I ask Adel and get the answer I expected?

[cicero]

I'll bandwagon and go for Adel.
btw, will probably be afk for Saturday, is that alright?

Heya, MSK. Welcome to the game. Do you mean AFK until saturday or on Saturday? It's no problem being AFK on saturday. Thanks for letting us know. (it's not really a problem being AFK until saturday either so long as you let us know.)

What's your reason for bandwagoning Adel? If you want to bandwagon her, why didnt you vote her? What did you hope to accomplish with that post?

[cicero]

What's your reason for bandwagoning Adel? If you want to bandwagon her, why didnt you vote her? What did you hope to accomplish with that post?

Sorry, still new to the game.

Vote: Adel

Unvote. Vote MSK

Clearly.

You didnt answer my question and you put Adel at L-1. (one vote from lynch). You have much to learn, young padawan.

Quote tag fixed -- Stoofer

[cicero]

Mod: that's a borked tag in my last quote. Not a vote for Adel. Fix if you get a chance

[cicero]

Do you have some secret reason to believe Adel is scum that you dont want to persuade the rest of the town with?

Yeah. I like my questions answered. I like people to explain why they think someone deserves to be lynched. I'm funny like that.

[cicero]

unvote

can cicero explain why please?

Explain what? Why you unvoted?

[cicero]

I'm not sure. I imagine you found this:

I saw that Adel was close to being lynched and I knew we didn't have any information to go on yet, so I voted for him on the chance that he actually is scum.

to be genuine? The desire for information?

I note the gender mix up but all that tells me is that you are a bit less likely to be scumbuddies together.

Other than that, I don't know.

[cicero]

Vote Count

Adel: 2 (the_cat_herder cicero)
the_cat_herder: 1 (Adel )
Musher333: 1 (lord_hur)
lord_hur: (Musher333 )

Not voting: 2 (MSK oierw)

Then you did this:

unvote: vote MSK
for being gutsy newbie scum.

Then I did this:

Unvote. Vote MSK

With no intervening votes that I see.

0 + 1 + 1 = 2.

L-1 =3

I checked before I did it, actually. Is there something I missed or was there a problem with Stoofer's vote count? Then there was an FOS by Cat Herder and your unvote.

So I'm not following.

[cicero]

That'll teach you to lecture me in front of the children, sweetie.

[cicero]

Unvote

What'd Adele just talk about, Cat Herder?

[cicero]

I saw that Adel was close to being lynched and I knew we didn't have any information to go on yet, so I voted for him on the chance that he actually is scum.

That's very very poor logic... anyone has an equal chance of being scum (scums are randomly selected right?).

That's exactly my reasoning.

Um... what?

(ps. You should all put up avatar pictures n' stay awhile )

[cicero]

I just voted Adel to get someone lynched, as we have no evidence either way on anybody.

K, MSK: With 7 players, no doctor and a day start (games here can either start in the Nightkill "night" phase or the daykill "day" phase):

Day 1: 7 players - Lynch wrong - nightkill day 1
Day 2: 5 players - 3 townies 2 scum. Lynch wrong Nightkill
Day 3: Game over

What does that tell you about the result of lynching just anyone for information on day 1 in a game this small?

It means we start day 2 in a "Lynch Right or Lose" situation. Very dangerous. That's why a lot of discussion on day one is a good thing. It's also why you need to find better ways of getting information than killing.

Think of the cop as a bonus not as a dependable crutch.

As for a No Lynch, Adel is much smarter than I am mathematically but basically.

Day 1: 7 Players - No lynch Nightkill
Day 2: 6 Players - 4 Townies 2 scum lynch wrong Nightkill
Day 3: Game over. (2 townies and 2 scum alive means town doesnt have enough votes to lynch)

So a no lynch, I think, just ups your odds of losing as town by keeping an extra townie alive. 40% vs. 33% straight shot at hitting scum all other things being equal on day 2. By keeping an extra player around you also lower the cops odds of hitting scum. (1 in 7 vs 1 in 6)

So both scenarios are bad but a mislynch is better than a No Lynch. But really both options suck.

In short. We gotta try really hard to lynch right. Today. Don't be in a huge rush to lynch anyone.

[cicero]

Well it depends on the size of the game. But day ones are usually the longest day. I'm betting this one lasts 2 weeks. Large games often put a deadline of 4 weeks on them but theyve been known to go much longer. The more people post the faster they can go.

Already getting restless, eh?

[cicero]

You don't claim cop if all you have is an innocent result unless

a) You are about to be lynched, or
b) The person you know to be innocent is about to be lynched

which isnt that far off from what Lord Hur is saying. First, try to get the town to make the right move without resorting to claiming. Claim as a last resort.

[cicero]

I dont know what a modified hypocop is, sadly. But based on the logic I already set out, I have to disagree that No Lynch is a good idea. I'll be curious to see your numbers. And to see if I believe 'em.

[cicero]

oierw, what the devil are you talking about?

Who is scum?

[cicero]

it doesn't work afterall. darn.

vote: MSK

I'm having trouble figuring out how you could possibly have thought it would. I'm a dumb lawyer and you are a mathematical supercomputer. Since it seemed pretty obvious to me (once I learned what hypocop was) that it would work better with 6 players than with 7 (to the extent that it could work at all in a game this short) for reasons I had articulated (probability of cop finding a guilty party tonight go from 2 in 7 to 2 in 6).

So why shouldn't I vote for you as the scum you probably are?

[cicero]

Update: Probably be gone for today as well as tomorrow, sorry.
Keeping my vote at No Lynch.

Any reasons why? I thought I just explained pretty clearly why it's a bad idea. I don't mind getting my ass kicked in an argument. Happens semi-regularly. But why just dismiss what I said, MSK?

[cicero]

So how does it work after a mislynch, one wonders?

[cicero]

By the way, what's a good time to do a full analysis on everyone ? Day 2 ?

Any time. There's no exact right time for it. The analysis should be an ongoing process. Post your analysis whenever you think it's strategically advantageous to do so.

[cicero]

Unvote. Vote Oierw

This guy is scum. He's barely posting and when he does avoids giving suspicion. I have tiny reasons to think the rest of you might be town. Oierw gives me none at all.

[cicero]

no...

Um...

Yes.

[cicero]

Unvote Vote Cat_herder

You're better at ignoring things than responding to fair questions. Me no like.

[cicero]

You miss my point about Adel and MSK. My idea was based on the absence of gender on her avatar. If they had been scumbuddies and chatted pre-game Adel may have let him know her gender in casual conversation. Maybe not though. It isn't much but I couldn't figure out what Adel was on about so I thought real hard. Turns out it was just a votecount mix up. It's actually not a very good point, that you're right about. What might be more fun is looking back to see if any newbies already called her "her" and whether any gender clues were given before that happened. Because THAT could be indicative of a scum pairing. But this is too many words already devoted to highly improbable things so I shall stop.

The Hypocop idea is problematic, if for no other reason than it asks the cop to investigate with no flexibility the number beneath his own instead of someone he/she might in his/her gut suspect. I'm not a big fan of believing in scumtells being amazing things, but intuition certainly has its place. Nevertheless, it's worth seeing the simulation.

[cicero]

2. Because the mafia typically don't lynch each other. A matrix is a better way to visualize this information, I need to draw it up sometime. There really isn't anything to go on day 1, so it is random with two actors who won't vote for each other.

By this logic you're not scum.
i'm not saying you are or not. Just by logic

Err can you develop your thoughts ? I have no idea what lead you to this conclusion.

Answer this question with something other than "No".

[cicero]

I think I see what's going on there. OK. You were just saying because Adel said townie things she is townie. First, don't bet on it. Second, what's so townie about it? It seems a pretty straight articulation of fact that one would have no problem saying as either scum or town.

[cicero]

/poke!

With my pokin' stick!

[cicero]

I agree. it's a constant problem in newbie games.

[cicero]

Yeah. Just not taking to it and quitting. Especially when in newbie games people are often in just one game on this site, which makes the process agonisingly slow, and the game has very little in the way of interesting power role mechanics. I found the game got a LOT better after I finished my first newbie game, and joined several other games. It keeps you coming back to the site with something to do.

More importantly, Musher, who is scum?

[cicero]

No. it's not a trick question, it's an attempt to get back on topic. The topic being "who is scum."

[cicero]

Mod could you prod MSK?

[cicero]

Newbie games are boring.

[cicero]

You don't have my meta straight, but you're accidentally correct. I havent thrown verbiage in this game as much as usual because when I try I can't get it to stick. No one takes the bait.

[cicero]

mod: Request Prod on all players

[cicero]

I knew I should have written "all players who are not named Adel"

[cicero]

Your ability to talk so much with a ball gag on is truly impressive.

[cicero]

Who would you rather lynch Adel? MSK or Cat Herder? And why?

[cicero]

Vote Cat Herder

There you go. L-1.

[cicero]

Or... hammer?

[cicero]

Ah. ok. I havent been paying attention well today

[cicero]

Yeah it shouldn't really be up to the ICs to do all the heavy lifting. You guys need to contribute and fight with each other n' shit.

[cicero]

First, welcome Quintex! How you doing?

Second, I'm posting this in all my games:
------------
Hey all. I'm not V/LA but work and life are hectic for the next bit so my posting frequency, and specifically, depth - are going to be a little un-cicero. Enjoy the breathing room?
------------

Third: Adel has no idea what I'm like as town vs. scum, and frankly neither do I. I think she's right about that point though. As scum. I'd probably have pushed through a mislynch by now, out of sheer impatience and boredom.

Fourth: No newbie is very far from being an IC. I joined this site in June last year. Now I'm considered experience. If you want to see a disastrous performance as a newbie read my newbie play in

newbie 436

. On the other hand, read it because that game sucked ten times less than this game does. So take inspiration and get fighting.

Fifth: Mafia isn't rocket science. It doesnt exactly take eons to develop proficiency. So don't be intimidated by an "IC". I certainly wasnt in my newbie game. And one of the ICs was scum, Mister Flay. And he's so experienced I'm still a super-noob in comparison.

Don't let the ICs in here just lead the town and blindly follow.

and finally sixth, and this is more game relevant: I'll never understand Adel's tricksy play. Adel, you and I play very differently. basically I try to play townie as town and scum. You play scummy as town and scum - which probably explains you being lynched 12 times as scum. Like that comment about how the scum would be fools not to nightkill you. I know you have a sneaky strategy to influence player actions behind it and your most previous statement about me as town. But it just makes me go "is she being sneaky to trick scum" or "is she being sneaky because she is scum." Adel just read that, and, if she's town went "grrr. Cicero! read my mind and shush!!" but I want to point out to the players the two differences in playstyle. So you can all decide: What's Adel doing? Is she town or is she scum?

[cicero]

Sorry. I'll be sure to call you "Q-U-I-T-E-X hun" from now on, Q-U-I-T-E-X hun.

Lord Hur: You mixed up night killing and lynching in post 234 there. Be careful, you'll confuse the Asperger kids!

[cicero]

EBWOP(Edit within another post) to my 236. "lynched 12 times as scum" should be "lynched 12 times as town".

[cicero]

Well if you say it's true, it must be then.

Or I could request that you demonstrate. Use quotes.

When has there been attention on me thast I needed to get off of me? Please, elaborate.

[cicero]

I've been lynched 12 times as town. It is really frustrating.

Have I been lynched 12 times? I thought that I've only been scum a total of four times... hmmm...

EBWOP(Edit within another post) to my 236. "lynched 12 times as scum" should be "lynched 12 times as town".

[cicero]

You. Fucking. Bastards.

I can't believe I'm alone in here with you now.

A-DELLLLLLLLLL!!!!!

[cicero]

Quitex - First, you may be my favorite person of the decade for actually coming in to this game and playing the fucking thing. And also calling me the best (Neener Neener, Adel!) So: sunshine raindrops and puppydogs for you.

Now, here's a rotten shock. Adel's death is actually proof positive that I am town for terrible reasons. I would keep Adel in here for company and fun. Because these chuckleheads and bringing it. And for the challenge. You think my baby scumbuddy would learn as much with Adel gone? No. I'd tell him "well normally" we might kill Adel but..." But of course that WIFOM explanation will do us no good, so try this.

Adel told the whole town she was not the cop, and the two stupid newbies didnt notice it. Do you think it was an accident, her telling people that scum would be idiots not to nightkill her? To newbs she set herself up as bait. With me, she pretty much just told me she isnt the cop, so I would gone looking to shoot the cop.

Now you're next thing is total crap:

The only thing I disliked about him was his constant pointing here and there. If you have a supect, stick with him. Sure look at everyone else, but to change your vote in less than 6 posts away while having high suspicions on someone else ain't exactly the way to go.

There's nothing there to stick to. I voted for reactions and to force interplay and to get people to play. The stupidest thing I could have done was follow your "advice" above. Trust me, when it's time to lock on I know how to lock on.

1. Why you think was Adel, and not you?

I think Adel convinced the scum she was the better player through her statistical analysis and more withdrawn manner.

2. What wen't wrong on day one?

People wouldn't play the game. Final lynch was basically random.

3. Who will take the blame for it? The one leading the town or the whole 4 people who voted?

I dunno. Need to re-read. Look at who hammered her, Oierw was it? And also you. You're pretty tops as suspects go, given your predecessor.

[cicero]

Hi there. First I am not "very" active in other threads. At least not for me.

Second, I'm trying to dial back and let you kids get to know each other.

Im still not scum just because I'm alive. If you are all out of stuff to say to each other I'll weigh in. Need me to? I shall read and post within 12 hours, sirs! (or so...)

[cicero]

Im still not scum just because I'm alive.

Am I the only one not understanding this affirmation ? It seems to me that the fact you're alive rather makes you scummy, since you would have been the most logical choice for a NK (as I said in a previous post) ; on the other hand, you being alive is perfectly logical if you are scum.

Or... what if the two noob scum (which there are because I am indeed town) decided to do a quick IC one-two punch. Nightkill one of the ICs and lynch the other for being alive and the apparently obvious night choice. Then spend the rest of their time on the site bragging about it.

Because that is

exactly

what's going on here.

[cicero]

Second, I'm trying to dial back and let you kids get to know each other.

Why so cocky about being an IC? You should be here everytime-all the times.

As for my reasons to vote for Oierw, it seems as the logic scumpair for Cicero, one is very active, the other, is not.

There is nothing logical about this supposition by the way. Sometimes scumpairs have different levels of activity. Sometimes they are both very active. Logic is the application of true premises validly in order to come to truthful conclusions. Logic doesn't live in the same city as your quote above because your premise "one partner will necessarily be more active and the other will not" is simply not a statement that can appropriately be described as true.

You must know this.

In addition, it seems astonishingly scummy to proceed as follows:

- Cicero is alive.

- Cicero is the optimal nightkill.

- Scum never do WIFOM actions to manipulate a situation to their benefit.

- Oirw doesn't talk much.

- Scumpairs always have an active member and a quiet member.

- Therefore Oirw is clearly Cicero's Scumbuddy. Vote Oirw.

You can't honestly be serious.

[cicero]

Stupid? What exactly is stupid?

[cicero]

Well. Stupid or not that's what they did.

The false premise also is that I'm better mafia player than Adel. This is not true. Nor is it clear that I was the biggest threat to scum in this game. Go back and look at her posts. Adel posted less than me but what she said was more dangerous. I was busy bouncing around trying to get people talking and playing professor mafia. Adel was watching. Any newbie with a tiny bit of experience, like say Quitex, could do a quick search on us both and figure out that Adel has quite a few more completed games and more wins than I do.

Quitex is operating based on a false premise: that I was the bigger threat. But even if that premise were true, the conclusion still doesnt follow necessarily. I am impressed with the cheeky audaciousness of this gambit, if indeed Quitex is the scum.

I'm not voting for him yet though. Unlike QUitex I dont have an interest in mislynching based on one pet theory baby wrapped in the swaddling cloths of WIFOM and confirmation bias.

[cicero]

Quitex, I'm really not. And you've now descended into being annoying as well as illogical. That's simply no answer to my point.

[cicero]

Where on earth did you get the idea that all scumpairs get the luxury of deciding that one will be talkative and the other quiet?

Why are you being like this? Is it for effect?

[cicero]

I feel like Quitex wants to get lynched. :S

[cicero]

I think the scumpair is maybe Quitex and Oierw. No one has quicklynched either Quitex or Oierw despite opportunity to do so.

This may just be though due to scheduling. But also odd is Quitex's absurd argument that I am scum therefore vote Oierw.

[cicero]

The scum are Quitex and Oierw.

[cicero]

Vote Quitex

[cicero]

No reasonable person makes a circuitous case that makes me scum, then Oierw my scumbuddy and then votes the second person instead of the first. Quitex voted Oierw knowing Oierw was his buddy.

Scum wouldnt hammer. Scum were occupied.

Even as it stands I don't need to worry about scum hammering Quitex because Quitex IS scum.

in 332 Oierw calls for an unvote. Quitex dutifully does so.

Also Quitex was sitting on Oierw for quite a while and yet no Quickhammer came. Not even a bare attempt. Now granted, this is not great evidence because a quick hammer requires the two scum to be on and paying attention at the same time. Which makes L-2 in this game slightly less dangerous than in other games.

I vote Quitex, Oierw unvotes. I've screwed with his plan.

[cicero]

How about answering that question that makes you think Quitex is town?

[cicero]

Was that a hammer vote he did on himself?

[cicero]

Christ. I think we found Adel a husband.

Oierw. Cut that shit out. thx.

[cicero]

Deservedly so, too.

Congrats to you both.

Quitex came in and got the game going. Lord_Hur did a good job of looking townie the whole time. At the end I was believing Musher was the cop because his explanation, with the sudden vote on Quitex at the beginning of day two and his 99% assurance that Quitex was scum, looked exactly like what he said it was. A cop with found scum.

Oierw, you would have been better served posting WHY you thought there was more evidence in favor of Lord Hur and letting Musher respond to it.

Still, prior to Musher's explanation on his Quitex vote he was third on my list of scum with Oierw as second, so I wasnt exactly prescient.

[cicero]

...or you could have just taken the time to analyze their posts better instead of ending the game with a shrug and a coin toss.

[cicero]

Also - I'm not a fan of elaborate gambit plays. Adel is but I'm not. I find before you lie as town, you should think VERY carefully about the implications. A lot of time you'll just end up making another townie, like say me, suspicion of your lies. Who will then annoyingly chase you around for the rest of the game calling you scum. This provides cover for the real scum. But I can't very well NOT follow you around you yelling at you because, from my perspective, you may very well be scum.

[cicero]

K. Im taking this off my watch list. Good game, all.

Ciao