Newbie 569: (Game Over)

[sonickid01]

I'm here, got the role.

[sonickid01]

I think bolding should be used whenever you make a descision to do something like voting, unvoting, FoS, etc.

You type the [] with a "b" in the middle and then everything between it and this thing [/] (there's a b right after the slash) will be bolded. If I try it it'll bold everything and you won't see it.
Example:

vote: sonickid01

unvote

.
Alternatively, you go to "post reply" and press the bolded B button after you highlight what you want to be bolded (I think) or just press it, type what needs to be boldfaced, and then press it again and continue.

You can click "quote" on my post to see how I did it, and then press the "back" button on your browser or something.

May I request that we

prod: WrathofShadows?

[sonickid01]

I assume Quitex is the replacement?

He was voting because of lurking. Like he said.

This point in the game is known as the "random voting" stage, right?

[sonickid01]

Hm.

I'm reserving my vote for now. There's no information right now; it's the start of the game, so I'll wait it out.[/b]

[sonickid01]

Geez, I got it.

You can call me Sonic if you like.

Still waiting for something to happen...

[sonickid01]

Random vote: Battousai

because I'm not a big fan of Naruto. *shot by every Naruto fanperson in the world*

Although Chickenfish seems quite eager to do something. It's a bit fishy, if you asked me. *shot a second time for recycling a joke and for lameness*

[sonickid01]

I was kidding. The joke was implied by the horrible overused pun. :/

[sonickid01]

@ Sonnic, Battousai:

What do you think of the discussion between me, vampire and CF?

...
Intense. Head hurts.

OK, so to understand what you're saying, I'll try to paraphrase it:

You basically vote to get information for the most part. When I see that someone votes, I need to look and see the thought process behind a vote for any possible angle.

Gotcha, in that case.

So random voting gets the game started, but doesn't do a whole lot other than that.

In which case, since you're already at L-2, I'll turn on you and as a way of saying thanks for helping me out:

unvote, Vote: Claus

to get some info out of you.

XD *shot by Claus*[/b]

[sonickid01]

Another thing I cant understand: I place a FoS on sonic trying to get attention of him and onto me, perhaps you put the wrong name in there or I am not reading it right please explain this to me.

I think he means that by FoS-ing myself, he suspects that you were trying to draw attention to yourself or me rather than Claus, because he suspects that you and him are scum. I also do find that to be a bit suspicious as well; I interpret it as trying to scrape suspicion off of your partner, if you are both scum, and onto someone else.

Batt- lol, 6/7 people, the 7th being yourself. Suspicious as well, but I'm more unsure about Chickenfish.

However, on the other hand, I do agree with Chickenfish. At L-1, only a mafia member would try to just go in and lynch immediately. If anyone does go for the hammer, it's a huge sign that says "Hi! Lynch me, I'm scum!" (I screwed up a game on a different board by being hasty and not thinking and randomly hammering an innocent, so this sounds hypocritical from me. )

However, I doubt that with the knowledge that we're not going to do anything at L-1, no one will probably crack down.

I guess that I'm not extremely sure of Chicken, but he does seem (it's not really a joke this time, ) a bit fishy.

FOMS: Chickenfish

[/b]

[sonickid01]

not sure ive got this quoting thing write yet but im trying.......

sonickid01 wrote

However, I doubt that with the knowledge that we're not going to do anything at L-1, no one will probably crack down.

It had occured to me that perhaps claus and sonic could be partners........
placing a L-1 on your partner so early in the game, yes there is risk of town hammering but that is less likely than scum doing it and it could be a very bold move to distance each other for the rest of the game.......it does leave sonic with obvious pressure on him for this but I think most early stuff is more easily explained/forgoten.
Heh thought i would put this out there wildy speculative as it is.

What I meant by that is that if I were in the position of staring down L-1 this early into the game, if I were scum I don't think I'd let any information through because I would know it was a bluff. Later on, should there be significant evidence against me, I would reveal something most likely. Claus doesn't have much evidence against him and he probably knows that so putting him at L-1 probably won't get much, if anything.

I do not say I'm defending Claus. Although I don't have a lot of proof of this statement since I voted for Claus earlier to just try to get information out of him, which I now realize won't work because (see above opinion in paragraph), though I haven't unvoted off of him. All I mean is L-1 won't really work to get a whole lot of information this early in the game UNLESS we actually intend to lynch someone.

Like I said before, my suspicion's more to Chickenfish than anyone but not very heavily. Your Potatoes = L-1 argument sort of makes sense and sort of doesn't. L-1 is a very good reason to suspect someone depending on circumstance. L-1 is not entirely random like potatoes, however. :^P (I don't like that automatic smiley. XD *shot*) However, I was just trying to get info.

Vampire, I wasn't trying to distance myself from anyone. Like I said, I was trying to get information, but as it's my second game I think I was trying to jump in too early.

[sonickid01]

Great move, Quitex. Me and Chicken voting for the same person does sorta point to a possibility of scuminess. However, my only reasoning for voting Claus was to get a bit of info, nothing more than that. I put him at L-1 with that because I knew there wouldn't be a lynch this early like I said earlier, unless there was a hammer of mafia. Chicken, on the other hand, was voting for an actual reason. If we were both the scumpair, we wouldn't vote the same person this early- it'd give ourselves away.

If I were to think of a scumpair possibility, it'd be Claus and Vampire. Vampire "randomvoted" Claus. Perhaps to draw suspicion away from the possibility since random votes mean nothing. Then I vote for Claus, and he unvotes, but keeps an FoS on him to make it look unsuspicious.

I'm now suspicious of Claus & Vampire in addition to Chicken, but that's half the players. :/[/b]

[sonickid01]

So you're telling us you're both possible scum?

I meant that that's a very good point, not that I'm scum.

How'd you know? Gut feeling? For the record, Gut feeling is good when you're @ day 2 and a scum was killed on day 1. But gut feeling may cost us a game on day 1.

My common sense tells me that a lynch this quick points out immediately one out of two scum. So even if Claus did end up lynched, we already have one mafia pointed out directly. Although that's one IC gone, there's another one still there.

[/quote]Note here that you're suspicious of the other 3 people on this game that are under the hammer. Are you trying to convince someone to vote for Claus and FOS Vampire on their way, while making CF and yourself less scummypartnerlike?[/quote]
At this point in the game, it may be a bit early to consider a lynch. I'm not trying to get anyone hammered. I'm only trying to convince someone of the possibility that they're scum, not telling anyone to hammer anyone.

[sonickid01]

Sonic:

While CF is agressive, and thus possibly an overeager townie, Sonic is just bloodthirsty.

He spends two posts on page 1 saying he is "waiting for stuff to happen". Then he random votes, and says CF is suspicious out of the blue.

I only put an FOMS on him. And it was because I agreed with the logic of Vampire.

He puts me in L-1 to get "info out of me"... but doesn't make me any questions. What kind of info exactly you wanted? How would I know? He didn't even say I was suspicious, and that vote sat there a loooong time (i think it is still there, right?)

Yes, it's still there. You had said that you are supposed to vote people and see how they react, but I think I misunderstood or something.

Then the next post, he agrees with everything that CF says, but FoS'es him. The fact that he just did something similar to me makes me wonder if this is distancing, or if he is really trying to throw dirt on CF for my lynch.

I don't quite remember an FOS, just an FOMS. It wasn't any heavy suspicion.

Then he buddies up QX by going "great move!" then throwing dirt on Vampire out of nowhere. He thinks I'm scum - that is the first time he actually says that, because his original vote was to "get info from me".

I meant "great move" in a sense that I thought it was a good idea to create a list of possibilities. I wasn't intending to suck up to anyone if that's what you're thinking. I said I was suspicious, but I didn't FOS you and Vampire. I said it's a possibility. I don't believe I threw dirt at anyone. In my own opinion, I'd have to say you're exaggerating. Which, if you take that statement and try to turn it over, does not mean I'm heavily believing that you're scum, but only that you're exaggerating.

And his last post:
Quote:
My common sense tells me that a lynch this quick points out immediately one out of two scum. So even if Claus did end up lynched, we already have one mafia pointed out directly. Although that's one IC gone, there's another one still there.


Is terrible as well. He is trying to convince us that If you mislynch me, then that would be okay because the hammerer would be the "mafia pointed out directly?". "One ic gone, but we still have one" seems like "hey, I'm not sure, but we don't lose much by lynching him".

So Sonic's vote starts as info vote, then I'm scum with vampire (even though I had posted nothing in between), and then it would be an okay mislynch, because the hammerer would be scum.

I see my mistake here. ICs are more important than I'd originally assumed. I can see that ICs are heavily depended upon for newbies. I believe I must have doubted the worth of help like that, and I realize that that sounded really stupid.[/i]

[sonickid01]

@ Sonic: Anything you may say to convince us to changes our votes to either CF or Someone else?

Only that I noticed that Claus seemed very defensive when I began to suspect him. However, I do realize that this doesn't point to scum. That's the only thing I have to say, really.

@sonic If you had to pick three people in order of most scummy who would they be?

I'm not really sure. It's hard to tell. The only real evidence I have against Claus so far is that he was a bit defensive in my opinion, but that's not much. I do have suspicion against one person. In reality, I'm mostly suspicious of only the following person.

I believe there's a scumminess in Chickenfish. He acted in a bit of a strange way to Claus's jumbled posts comment. I don't think that he could've accidentally interpreted as the comment being directed toward his spelling/grammar. He seemed like he was trying to avoid the subject of his possible scumminess, very suspicious.

FoS: Chickenfish

Additionally, Batt's mess-up seemed a little odd, but meh.

And I don't see a point in voting Claus any more when it was just a long random vote and didn't actually mean anything, and isn't doing anything.

Unvote

Fixed a pair of tags.

[sonickid01]

Sorry for not posting much recently. I got sick with a cold and a fever. I don't have time to post a lot now, but later throughout the day I'll probably be able to post more. No need to prod me again, I didn't entirely forget about the game, I just got sick.

[sonickid01]

You wanted a list of players and thoughts, Claus?
Alrighty then. Going back through some posts here and there and rereading them closely, I don't have any major opinion about anybody right now. Yes, this is extremely wish-washy, I know, but I came up with this:

Chickenfish: I'm not trying to "buddy up" with Claus when I say this, but yeah, you're a bit hotheaded as of late. Why such a big argument over the context of OMGUS? He seems really hung up on it but meh. However, some of his points against Quitex, I have found valid, although the comments like "reality check" seem to be a bit unnecessary and irrelevant in my opinion.

Battousai: A little quieter than most everyone else, save for Roland, but not lurkish. Not much of an opinion here. He hasn't said a whole lot as of late from what I remember, which makes me wonder, but whatever.

Claus: I definitely think you know what you're talking about seeing as you're an IC. Not much opinion. I'm wishy-washy.

Quitex: Your statement "The crap of "scums won't give themselves away" its just what it is: crap" I disagree with. Scums wouldn't give themselves away, would they? It's highly unlikely, unless they're playing some sort of super-reverse-psychology and it works. However, I don't really have much to say

Rolandgarros: Your lurkful (if that's a word. :^P) behavior is a bit shady in my opinion, like others have mentioned. But that's the only real opinion I've got on you.

Vampire: I think you've got good questions & intents, despite what Chicken says. I'm sorta leaning to the side that doubts you are scummy, although it's very possible that I'm wrong.

This is my most "wishy-washy" post in the game. I don't have much real opinion at this point. I don't think I was paying as much attention to the game as I should have, but I am focusing now.

[sonickid01]

I don't agree with you there, Quitex, although it may be a bit off subject. Claus mentioned earlier that you have to think of a move through the eyes of both a scum and a town, and try to see the reasons behind either case. Therefore, to catch the scum, town MUST think as scum, right? Also, I'd like to make clear that this is NOT defending or buddying up with CF, only saying an opinion.

Vampire, you want me to try and convince you that I should stay to Day 2? OK, I think my problem was basically a lack of a bit of aggression here. Would you agree? If I can prove myself to be more aggressive and suspicious, then would you allow me to live to Day 2?

Batt, you want my defense? The lack of giving any real information and lack of any real opinion on anyone is from the lack of my aggression in this game. That was, and I don't like having to pull the Newbie card, because this is my second game of mafia, the first being not even finished on a different forum. I tried to lay back a tad and learn more than do anything drastic. I L-1ed Claus before because there I didn't think there would be a lynch that early.

I dunno if you'd call that a real defense. You probably are not convinced, but that's the reason I was unhelpful. If I'm unhelpful Day 2, you can always lynch me then.

Lastly, I'd like to ask Quitex why he believes the town wouldn't want to think as scum. It's a bit of wierd logic to me.

[sonickid01]

Town will NEVER think as scum.

We should take into consideration what scums would do in certain situations.

I think I'm just being picky here, but meh. Anyway...

Town is obviously not scum, so town shouldn't think as scum? Red isn't blue, therefore, red can't be blue. :^P In most situations, I think that we should think as scum, not just certain ones. Although I think I know what you may be trying to say- we should think as scum, but maybe not act as scum. Is that what you meant?

The changing of mind makes me slightly suspicious. However, don't see this as some act of desperation from me. I'm not simply trying to slide off suspicion. I'm making an opinion and thought on an action clear. This and Quitex's previous "scum won't give themselves away" comment are looking a bit shady to me. If anyone can tell me exactly how town being not scum should keep them from thinking as scum, that'd be great.

BTW, everyone, what is WIFOM? I found that it means Wine In Front Of me from the Mafiascum wiki, but it still confuses me. What does that mean? Is it basically just that reverse-reverse-reverse-reverse psychology game situation?

[sonickid01]

This and Quitex's previous "scum won't give themselves away" comment are looking a bit shady to me.

I really fail to remember where did I said that.

The scums would hammer already.

The crap of "scums won't give themselves away" its just what it is: crap.

So, please mates, think it that way: Why scums would take that long to hammer a TOWN, who in the end is in the other side of the coin, in the other team, NOT with the scums?

It was a while back. I used the wrong wording to describe the quote. I should have said it's the "'scum won't give themselves away' is crap" quote. But please know I am not just scrambling for random dirt.

Question to the ICs: is it considered a good or bad move to try and get things that people said a while ago, several pages back, like how I just did with Quitex's quote? I'm a little confused about that, and you're there to answer questions, right? :^P

Also, Quitex, can you give me a general, brief example of a certain other time we would want to think as scum? It may sound like a dumb question, but I'd like an example, if you can come up with one.

[sonickid01]

Yup, a pleasure.
One example of where we would want to think as scum is after night is over. We need to see the reasons why scums killed an specific person (if any... If not, why would they not kill anyone as well) and how that gives us clues of who the scums are.

I may not be an IC, but I may advise you to always put the quotes when quoting while-back statements (or at least add the post # ) but for me that's perfectly fine.

OK. That does make sense. Now can you give me a situation where it would be harmful and/or unhelpful to try and think as scum?

And is a prod on Claus really necessary? He said he was gone on another trip, right? Or is my mind backward?

[sonickid01]

OK.

So you guys got up to page 13...

Eh.

I'll get a list like Claus wants when I can. I'll try in a following post to get as much as possible, but it's more than likely I'll have to continue it in more than one post if I can't finish, probably get it done completely tomorrow.

I'll read over everything and get that stuff together as soon as possible.

[sonickid01]

Perhaps I should have given Qx time to claim but I dropped enough hints about claiming that I thought there were no power roles on the line.

OK, I said I would start being more aggressive, so...

"Perhaps?" We now lack our only power role... I had a wierd sense that Qx was cop. We're now looking at LyLo, and are disadvantaged by a lack of any sort of firm info from the cop.

Vampire, you hammered someone who had voted you. Seems a little scummy to me.

FoS: Vampireofdusseldorf

What exactly led you to believe that Qx did not have a power role?

Next post; I was typing that list of thoughts on all those posts, and then just got finished and noticed that Vampire had hammered and it was night, so I held on to it to post it the beginning of Day 2. All of the thoughts in the following post are from BEFORE the hammer.

[sonickid01]

#221- Vampire
I don't think that the ICs are supposed to simply tell us the answer. I know you don't think that, but it sounded to me like you were very demanding. However, it doesn't really matter.

#225- Vampire
Quote:
Honestly if I had a no vote cast and anyone was at 3 votes then I would hammer just to get to day two.

0_0; A little scary. It sounds to me that you are simply looking for a bit of blood and getting impatient. Although you say that it was scumbait, I don't quite think it was. I doubt that you would have covered that statement so soon after saying it. You could have waited to see what happens. Sounds more like a cover-up to me. Little suspicious in my eyes... But meh, I'll see.

#231- Quitex
I really sense a bunch of hatred from you. You seem really argumentative. That last bit of extreme sarcasm seems a little... odd to me. It seems irrelevant, only an opportunity to express anger. It's almost like you are trying to get whatever you can to "get back at" those who disagree with you. While I'm not yet saying I'm against you or for the other side, I don't think that that is needed. I think it could be just an attempt to make yourself seem less scummy by using anger and trying to make yourself look as pro-town as possible by being stubborn and bitter. However, I'm not sure on that one. That's not a big scumtell, but I'm shifty.

#238- Vampire
A little brash. Unless this is more of your scumbait?

#240- Vampire
I agree with QX's statement (statement, not saying I do or don't agree with his logic), contrary to what you believe. It is very possible that the scums will act as scum to appear pro-towny. That is how they would play it smart, by disguising themselves, correct? Otherwise, unless they've got some other strategy, they're stupid scum, right? I don't believe that what you said in this post is scummy here.

#253- Vampire
Good point. So the chart is basically +/- 6 at most, because scum could skew it like that. However, Roland is right a post afterword. That's not a probability of anything at all. It's people's personal opinions, and (1) there's the scum skewing, and (2) humans are human, they are wrong quite often.

#257- Quitex
So if you're so confident of me and Cf as a scumpair, then why the vote on Vampire? Then IMMEDIATELY after, you point out Vampire on the same thing. You're trying to point out his fault and what you've done well, but I find it hard to follow. It's a little hypocritical. Also, please provide an example of Roland's style if you may or something.

Bunch of later posts, I think are just pointless arguments.

#274- Roland
Part of me wants to wait to see your motives, but hiding stuff like motives is a bit shady in my opinion. It's a chance I'm not willing to take. Hiding stuff from everyone, yes, keeps the scum from knowing your motives, but the town is kept in the dark too. It only leads me to be suspicious of your reasoning. I could easily mislynch and say that it was for future planning, I'll explain at the next bridge. I'd really like to be a fun-spoiler and ask what the motives were.

5 next posts: what? Doesn't really means anything. All you're doing is just insulting Vampire. It's the whole insult thing again that hapened with CF. I would honestly have to say that you're stooping down low a bit. Then Roland makes an entirely useless point as a comeback. :^P

#280- Quitex
I don't quite know what FoI is. Is it Finger of Innocence? If so, why? Because an IC does his job doesn't mean that he is a townie necessarily. Would you agree?

#282- Roland
Reminds me of Chickenfish's earlier posts.

#290- Quitex
I don't see exactly how Vampire was scumhiding. he may not have been right but I don't think that he was exactly scumhiding.

#298-299
More insulting. Why is it getting so angry here?

#309- CF
I'd have to say I agree with you at this point. That was so many posts, and most was not helpful. Roland and Vampire have been arguing in what I see is a very similar way as to how Quitex and CF have- not extremely helpful. I've seen not a whole lot of info except that for all practical purposes Roland and Vampire basically hate each other now. :^P Roland's been very adamant all of the sudden now on teaching Vampire a lesson. Honestly, it's not doing much. While you're an IC, I think it'd be best if you backed off, Rolandgarros. Obviously he's not going to learn, being this stubborn.

#323- Roland
That seems more like it. However, I'm not entirely sure.

---

Alright, so I think I'm mostly suspicious of Vampire now more than anything. Earlier, I believed he was playing very well for a newb. Now he seems to have declined in his playing, possibly from becoming desperate? I dunno. My guess- he and Roland pulled an excellent disguise as scumpartners. Roland may have been trying to, as the IC, teach his newb scumpartner something. Then they pulled an incredibly gambit (that's not the word I'm looking for, but I can't think of what it is right now).

*****************************

Like I said, that's just my thoughts before Vampire hammered.

[sonickid01]

I'm here guys, but I can't post right now. I'll try and come back later to post again, but I can't at the moment. Expect something from me around the afternoon or evening, I guess.

[sonickid01]

OK, so it'll sound like I'm just making excuses, but yesterday my internet died and it just came back. :^P

sonickid01 wrote:
Like I said, that's just my thoughts before Vampire hammered.

Again as with roland I would like to mention post event posting (especialy after a lynch) is highly dunious, In this case I am inclined to believe that this was mostly true and done before night but at the same time if you are scum you can slip in whatever you like knowing it will be read in a new context than the one you had intentioned it to be seen in.

sonickid01 wrote:
I had a wierd sense that Qx was cop

Was it just a sense or were there things that Qx did or said which gave you suspicion of him being cop.

I just copied and pasted what I'd written before the hammer on Day 2. I didn't try and change anything- it's my pure thoughts. If you find something you think I might have changed, then please point it out to me.

I dunno why I had that sense. Something just clicked in my head, I guess. I don't know exactly how cops act typically or anything, so I don't know how I knew in the back of my mind. Some sort of instinct told me he might be the cop; I have no idea why or how. But that's besides the point and not relevant.

Roland, I don't see how that's overly protown. I just was stating that something in my mind told me that he was a cop. I know that was irrelevant and probably not worthy of posting, but what makes you think it was overly pro-townish?

Um... Vampire? I don't quite understand what you're saying here:

nice move by sonic to debunk this theory of Qxs by trying to say claus is scum (lies) and I am his partner (also lies I am town), hmm funny as I was in the last vote with claus at L-1.

How could I lie if I didn't know that Claus wasn't scum? That's not a lie, that's an incorrect guess. I'm not a fortune teller if that's what you're implying.

Alrighty then, so my guess as to why Claus was nightkilled? Probably to draw because he was pretty protown. It would make me seem shady as well. I would be the obvious choice for a Day 2 lynch. The most obvious choice at this point for a lynch, of course, is me then. However, I think that I'm being framed. If I were to think of another possible person other than myself who might have killed Claus, it would be Chickenfish. A few people found him pretty suspicious as well early game. It would help to frame me and/or trap the town in WIFOM.[/quote]

[sonickid01]

I can understand me being the easy target for town but this worries me (very wierd being worried about labeled town).

Wait, why would you be worried? I don't think I exactly understand what you're saying. Is it that it could be risky dropping any one from suspicion? But if you're innocent, then why would that be risky? It's helpful more than anything?

Anyone could have killed claus for a WIFOM thing with sonic, yet you only mentioned it with me and yourself.

OK, let me see his list of reasons... my thoughts are in { }s.

Sonic: Claus supported day 2 lynch of him {The obvious choice, but brings up a slew of WIFOM}
CF: Looked suspicious in almost everyone's eyes, needed to divert attention {... to Sonic, via WIFOM}
VAMP: WIFOM of sonic
Roland: Appeared somewhat scummy to vamp and claus (from chart he was third choice) {Possibly. It might kill two birds with one stone; Claus was suspicious of me first, Quitex second (who's the cop in fact), and him last. However, toward the end of the day, Claus said he started liking my answers and had only a "lingering suspicion" of me. It would benefit Roland, as he is the only person left on the list. Plus there's the WIFOM on me.}
Battousai: WIFOM of sonic

-

So basically, everyone, including me, has a WIFOM reasoning on myself, but Roland has extra reasoning. :/

[sonickid01]

Sonic being worried about being labeled town by scum is valid and batt I am not sure about at all.
Read Post 378 and let me know what you think, this certainly gets me labeled town by the two other townies and is much more assuring than the chance of being deemed town by one townie.

I wasn't saying it's invalid, or scummy exactly- I just don't quite follow why there's any worry. I'm probably just out of it and not paying attention or something and it's really obvious, but can you just explain how you're worried about scum labeling you town (or point me to exactly where you said it before if you did and I didn't read properly)?

I'll post my thoughts on 378 later.

[sonickid01]

OK, so I don't like post 378 too much. The idea is kind of weird. It seems very risky to just assume that someone is totally townie. However, because you obviously want everyone on your side, you said that someone who disagrees is likely scum. "I expect scum will try and rubbish this idea." Your other idea (I'm fairly certain it was yours, if not correct me) didn't work extremely well before, of making the list of all the suspicions. It helped but did not lead us to the lynch, it misled us.

But I'm thinking, you may be right.
So we have all the following people left:

Roland
Batt
Sonic
Vampire
CF

Two of which are scum. We are now suspecting all of those. However, by proclaiming you townie, we have:

Roland
Batt
Sonic
CF

to suspect, two of which, if this assumption is right, are scum. Ok, so then we have four people, named 1, 2, 3, and 4. Assuming 1 and 2 are the scum, then 3 and 4 only have to suspect three people, rather than 4 with Vampire around. The chances of mislynching drop from 50% to 33%, so the chance of hitting scum rises from 50% to 66%. From 1-in-2 to 2-in-3 chance. Plus there's a sort of "scummyness bonus."

That's assuming you are town.

That is very tempting for me. However, there's one fatal flaw in the plan- what if you aren't town? It would be very easy for a scum that doesn't have a lot of suspicion on him to make this same move. The benefits of this from the POV of scum is almost scary.

In the event that you are lying and are mafia...

You can easily REDUCE your chance of getting a mafia lynched. Let me put it this way; there's 2 scum. Assuming you are one, then out of you and your partner, there's a 40% chance between you two of getting lynched, and letting the town escape from lylo (40% = 2/5) By eliminating yourself, then there's only the possibility of your partner getting lynched, which is now from 2/5- 1/4, 40% to 25%. And even if your partner does get lynched, then you're still there. :/

However, suspicion is likely to fall on you if he does get lynched. If your partner is lynched and found to be scum, suspicion can fall on you. Then it's game over. 1-in-4 chance of mafia losing. From what I've seen of your playing, I doubt that you would do that. However, this bold move in the first place leads me to believe that you would.

On the other hand, throughout the game you were fairly pro-town and I'm leaning to believe that you are genuinely trying to catch the scum. Therefore, despite the odds of you getting away with it if you were to be scum, then there is your partner. If we lynch a scum following this order then I will immediately have heavy suspicions on you. 1-in-4 chance, plus the "scummyness bonus."

I think I'll go with you on this one. Not entirely supporting it 100%. I'd say I'm supporting it about... 75%. But yes, I will assume for now that you are not scum.

Roland, what do you say about this?

[sonickid01]

I'm willing to go with it but I'm going to watch Vampire extremely closely throughout it. I have as suspicion on him but if he is scum, we might be able to catch him and back out. But there's too much might. :/

I'm still going with it, but I'm not entirely sure about it. I'll see what happens.

If Vampire tries to go and target someone and keep trying to lead us further, I'll know that he's up to something.

[sonickid01]

I believe that Roland said that you were implying that Batt would be removed because you already mentioned him to have believed you to be town.

Why you would try this is fairly obvious; because you may have already tricked us.

As a townie, I can sort of see why he would come up with this, but more clearly I can see how Vampire is more of a scum thinking he's got the wool over our eyes enough so that he can pull off such a gambit and be trusted.

You may be really good at fooling people. However, that last statement you made is why I decided to accept to assume that you are town for now.

[sonickid01]

People? The only person left is CF, who's gone.

Should we wait before moving on for CF to return and take an opinion on this?

[sonickid01]

Yeah, CF, that's what I was thinking as well.

But here's a suggestion; why don't we let CF play without assuming that you are innocent, while the rest of us do? It'll allow us to keep an eye on you while we discuss.

Eh, besides that, listen CF. It sounds like a weird idea. But it may help town; he's right, if he isn't just scum, then it definitely increases our chances of catching one. I'm unsure as well, but I think that if Vamp tries something funny, we may be able to catch him. If he perhaps tries to lead us further then I'll immediately throw some suspicion on him. :/ Plus, this isn't a lifelong commitment, we can easily get out at any time.

Vampire, attacking his post after he disagrees? A little strange in my opinion. But I assume you are town, so meh.

[sonickid01]

Which means, I guess, that the town is slightly divided. We're sorta breaking into little "teams" again.

Roland and I are very, VERY cautiously agreeing to the gambit. CF says against it and Batt, I think, is sort of midway.

I suggest that everyone takes me as a given townie.

So those at the moment not accepting of this plan seems to be only CF and given how strongly I support this idea if he does not change his view on this I will be forced to vote him as my top suspect.

you appear more scummy to me at least.

That worked well. :/ I just got thought it was funny, that's all.

OK, so YOU strongly support YOUR idea. Of course you would, seeing as only you know your allignment. Basically, forgive me and correct me if I misinterpret, but I think I can translate what you're saying for this whole thing: "Consider me firmly townie, and if you don't I'll vote you." So you supporting this means that everyone who is townie must? Again, forgive me if I'm mistaken, but aren't different townies entitled to (egad!) their own opinions?

The way I see it, you're trying to take over the town. Which is a very scummy move. You've played well the whole game, and I can see how you would have a dark side. You hammered Qx, the cop (granted, you did give him a chance to roleclaim however), and are now trying to totally drive the town. If I were in your position, then if this worked, the next thing I'd do is another bold move since I've already gained so much trust. If you try anything else, I'm watching you.

I'm still going with your plan, but, as Roland said, with a grain of salt. I would place an FoS on you, but that would contradict assuming you are town, wouldn't it? :^P

I thought about the whole thing. I am now going with you 60%. I think I'll give you a "3 strikes" system before I am totally suspicious of you. The forceful attempt at gaining CF's acceptance is one strike already.

[sonickid01]

I think you might have misunderstood what I meant by strikes. I meant strikes based on suspicious moves. If that was sarcasm, then I don't like the tone.

I see your point here:

If you look at how this would work then it is by no means me trying to take over the town............again It would give the two other townies better odds than myself at finding scum giving the power to them to cathch scum, not any control to me.

However, such a bold move seems like you're trying to somehow sway the town. I don't think I like that feeling.

If you are town and I know there is two of you out there I am baffled why you are not supporting this move with more strength.
Given the only reason I can come up with is that you are worried I am scum.

Um, all four of us, the rest of us, don't 100% agree with what you're doing. That means that both the townies and both the scum are not totally going with you. Also, you only count one reason we're unsure. You're correct, your mathematical skills are entirely fine. However, if Qx or some cop were to have inspected someone and found them guilty, then told that to the town (assuming it was already proven they are cop, and it was just a random guess with no previous evidence), then there's only one reason there that they are scum too. Granted, this'll probably lead back to that potato argument since a cop and what's going on now is totally different, but my point is: it's quality, not quantity. There is a fairly decent chance that you are scum. It's that nearly blind assumption that you are not lying that bothers me. You have been very pro-town before, but listen to what I say, you could also be very good at being scum.

How do I quell this suspicion..........by becoming bolder and attracting more suspicion onto myself.

I can see what you're trying to say here. Going out as the brave hero may lend you a free "get out of jail" card. However, it brings up a WIFOM situation; what if it's, again, just an act? You could use that as a suspicion shield. :/

The resistance, Vampire, is not that I see you as scum, but see the possibility. It's very likely that you are extremely good scum. However, two more strikes and I will bring about that suspicion.

It almost seems opportunistic that someone in LyLo would go out and be Superman for us all. Or at least, that's how I see it.

I don't see any possible evidence that could directly prove that you are not scum. You could say that you were protown the whole game, but then the WIFOM appears there. I believe that the only solid possible evidence would've been one of Qx's investigations, but he's lynched.

I'd like to think of you as town. I'm still going with your plan, but as I said, 60% sure. If you could give me a reason or two of good quality (not quantity :^P) that we should assume you town, then I will be with you at least 90% or so.

Roland and Batt and CF, what is your take on the argument?

[sonickid01]

I thought of something.

The only real firm 100% way we can know who anyone is from a cop who isn't lying. That was Qx if he had gotten to Night 1. However, without firm evidence of anything... could anyone have gotten away with this? Therefore, it seems almost opportunistic of Vampire to have made this move. Maybe?

I have more thoughts, but have to go now. I'll post them later, more than likely tomorrow.

[sonickid01]

Yesterday I was typing some huge post and I accidentally hit my computer's power button just as I finished. XP

Now if this does not lead to a quick scum win then three things are to be considered:

if

IF

Strike two, Vampire. :/ You're killing yourself here. A vote in LyLo? For what, from the way I see it your reason is "he won't agree with me, therefore I don't like him." This is a dangerous position, Vampire. You've put us in a tough spot here by putting anyone at L-2. The only reasons I could really see of you doing this is that you're some kind of daredevil (which I can definitely see you as) or you're scum knowing that no one will hammer. Unfortunately, daredevils may get us killed. :/ From my point of view (I'm not insulting you personally here) you're whining about not having everyone's support.

Also, I thought of something just now.

I suggest that everyone takes me as a given townie.

How do I quell this suspicion..........by becoming bolder and attracting more suspicion onto myself

You're contradicting yourself here. You want your name cleared but are trying to make yourself seem more suspicious. Strange? If you don't want people on your case then don't be suspicious!

If I was scum you would have three townies reacting to this suggestion (might have been easier to sell then but draw whatever conclusions you wish)

Unless your scum partner is good as well.

We have both townies and both scum against you or at least not 100% with you. Does that tell you anything?

Here's an idea; why don't we take myself as a given town as well. That only leaves Roland, Batt, and CF to suspect as well. If I am not lying, then two of those are scum! Unless we get misleaded we have a guaranteed win, since the scum wouldn't hammer their partner (or maybe they would but whatever). Our chances of winning are incredibly high, 80%-90% or so. That way, the scum is totally dead meat. This has obvious benefits to the town, and anyone who disagrees will be seen as suspicious.

I had more to say but have to go.

[sonickid01]

Strike two, Vampire. :/

I'm very tempted to pull out now

So you were under my vote, and then it seems you just sort of cracked. :/ Yet you still have your vote on CF. More than likely, it was a mistake and I'll let it slide... for now.

Also, after I pointed out a couple of your mistakes, you seem to sort of try to abandon the idea. A little more inconspicuous than just saying "I take that back."

Also, you say you're tempted to pull out. I'm a little confused. Are you in or out? Did I convince you that the idea was tricky?

Now, it's like you tried to back yourself out right before I became fully suspicious of you. Before you can mess up again, you stop and try to avoid my vote. I believe that if you were town, would you have tried to defend yourself even if you did pull out?

OK, so if I were in your position making the same moves from the POV of scum, then here's what I would think.

"Yes! They totally trust me and think I'm a townie. And Qx was the only solid proof of anything! Why don't I try and make a bold move like totally 100% clearing my name. Half the mafia's safe then. And if they continue to believe it even after my partner is lynched I'M STILL TOTALLY SAFE! I could easily get the town killed off from there."

After Sonickid01 doesn't like/attacks (depending on how much you don't like me)...

"Dang, they've pretty much caught me. The WIFOMs didn't work too well. I was too eager, I should've been more calm and perhaps waited it out a little more and been a little less drastic. I also made a few stupid mistakes. I should probably settle down and start trying to be more like I was before, to get everyone's trust back."

--

Now as town's POV making those moves here's what I would think:

"This move will definitely help us catch the scum. Everyone'll be able to easily deduce who the scums are. This'll work out."

After Sonickid01's attack:

"Alright, so they didn't take it. The reason is that they don't believe me to be town, despite that I've played pro-town the whole game. Somehow, I need to prove that I am. Dangit, if I hadn't hammered the cop I could have some proof. Maybe I can find something. Just saying I was protown will lead to the WIFOM. :/"

Which leads me to ask you, is there anything at all that you can say to make me believe you are town? If not, then I won't immediately point you out. However I am a bit suspicious.

FOS: Vampire

Well that's just plain retarded... If you're town you've just totally blown it for us...

What do you mean by "blown it for us?" He changed his mind yeah, but what did he screw up?

[sonickid01]

Leaving today for 1-2 days, I might have a chance to post but meh.

Vampire, I believe Roland, CF, and I felt the same way about that phrase. It seemed too much like a trap to get everyone, town or scum, to agree. If it were something more 100% obvious and/or sure, it definitely would have made sense, like after proving that someone was cop and having them give an investigation and you could say someone who disagrees is more than likely scum.

Well, since everyone's posted and there hasn't been a hammer, you definitely either:

1. If you're scum, then you were always safe
2. If you're town, you definitely lucked out.

Which leads me to agree with you there, you or CF is scum. :/

[sonickid01]

Gah, I hate you Batt, I wanted to be the hammer. XD *shot*. I was joking for those who couldn't tell.

I was reading through the pages and saw Roland's vote and thought "yes!" I thought that I provided a pretty good argument against Vampire's "I'm Town" gambit.

I was sure I was gonna be lynched but then Vamp helped me out.

Anything I could've improved on?

[sonickid01]

sonic and Batt, why didn't you guys just hammer?

Dunno why Batt didn't, pro'lly for the same reason as me, but:

1. If I randomly placed a vote on you when you had one before and Batt wasn't around to hammer, and because Vampire is far from close to an idiot, he'd unvote, and then would I look suspicious?
2. Because of #1, it'd lay suspicion on both of you, making it easier for me.
3. I sorta wanted the game to last, because I was liking it. :^P

When everyone began to suspect CF and I as a scum team, I tried to play along on that and slide suspicion on us, because even if I get lynched, so would, more than likely, CF.

That said yay for lynching scum!

You string up Chickenfish. You soon regret this though, as sonickid01 and Battousai kill off the last two townies.

Game over, scum wins!

XDDDDDDDDD I thought that that was just hilarious.

I laughed here and there throughout the gambit. I was trying to get suspicion onto Vampire after his gambit, and then it was like CF just took the night shift and got himself killed for me.

However, Vampire is an excellent townie. Or I'm sorry to say, he was just until that Gambit, but then he was good after that. I had to reread it several times before I knew that this meant a way out. I was hoping no one would catch onto me being more active at that point.

That was fun. It's always good as scum to be eating popcorn while two townies literally fight to the death.