Newbie 569: (Game Over)

[Claus]

Hello!

[Claus]

If you want to show codes, you can use:

Code: Select all

The [code] tag ignores tags, like this:
[b]Use [b] to bold[/b]

And yes, Sonic is right: you want to bold things that you want the mod to see, like votes, unvotes, prod requests, etc. Fos/Unfos are usually bolded also, but that is not required.

[Claus]

Urgh, that didn't go right.

Code: Select all

[b]Use [b] to bold![/b]

And this is why you want to hit the "preview" button, to see if all your tags are correct

[Claus]

Well, Good game for everyone.

I'm one of the two ICs in the game (the other is roland garros). Our role here is to help you guys get the ropes of forum Mafia. So you can expect honest answers to any questions regarding how to play the game, regardless of my alignment.

Of course, we are also playing to win

So let's kick the game off:

Chickenfish: why were you voting WrathofShadows?
Vampire: who do you hope to be the mafia?

[Claus]

@ Sonic:

This is the startgame. Nothing "will happen", you have to do something, and see how other people react to it. This "something" is making questions to other people, comments to other people's posts, or voting, if you think something is fishy.

@Vampire:

As I've read random voting gets discussion going so

Vote: Claus

that evil santa is just creepy.

Lol. You are not the first one to say that. Very well.

I note that the question directed at chickenfish was answered by Sonic not sure what to make of that as tel or not.....

Also he ask in post 18 if this is the random voting stage which is confirmed in the next post then in post 20 it is stated that He is reserving his vote for now as there is no information.
Ok so what information do you need to place a random vote?

And yes it may seem I am coming on a bit strong with my pressure on Sonic and it is very early in the game but I am just wishing to get a better understanding from him.
Also would be great to have some posts from the other players as well.

I personally don't like random voting, because I don't think that random vote generates any info to the town. It is a copt-out.

For instance, you say you are pressuring "sonic", still your vote is on me. Don't you think that this is a bit contradictory?

[Claus]

@ Chickenfish

Don't you think the fact that you say it doesn't generate info, and then go on to begin a discussion based on it is a bit contradictory?

Not completely Let me try to rephrase that.

All votes bring info. You vote because you find someone scummy. You vote because you want to extract reactions from someone. You vote because you want to distance yourself from someone. So when someone votes, you look at that vote, try to imagine the reasoning behind it, and see if that reasoning makes sense as town, and as scum. Then you can hold someone responsible for their vote.

And this is the problem with random votes. They have no responsibility. "why did you vote like that? Oh because it was random" - open and close, there is nothing you can follow on from there.

Unless, of course, you suspect the vote is not so random. Which was the case of my comment - I find it a bit suspect to slap a "random" vote on one person, and then question a completely different person, to the point of saying "sorry if I'm putting too much pressure".

Does this make more sense to you?

@ Vampire:

-> Regarding quotation: You can quote by pressing the button "quote" on top of each post. You should also take a look at the tag buttons: try to help yourself a bit here

-> If I understood correctly, you questioned sonic to start discussion, but you don't think he is particularly town or mafia. You think your random vote was good because it sparked discussion. I won't argue with that. Now that it has served its initial purpose, do you still like your random vote?

-> I think you are playing the newbie card a bit too much, and I really don't like your "vote A, question B" strategy, so I'll put my money where my mouth is:

vote: thevampireofdusseldorf

@ Sonnic, Battousai:

What do you think of the discussion between me, vampire and CF?

[Claus]

Yay. Lots of activity.

Sorry guys, but I got a busy spell at work today and tomorrow. A more fleshed out post will probably come on saturday.

I'm enjoying this game

[Claus]

Hey folks! Missed me?

Ok, sorry for being away so long, this week was kinda hellish to me.

Good news:
- To compensate I was away for so long, I'll take the time to write few detailed posts with re-read of the game and a player-by-player opinion.

Bad news:
- After I write these posts, I'll be going on a trip tomorrow that will probably leave me away from the internet until wednesday.

=====================================

Game re-read, player by player (italics are comments):

- SonicId

Page 1- "I'll hold on to my vote. Nothing Happening"
"Still waiting for something to happen"

- This is funny, considering the P2 game -

Page 2- Random Votes battosai. Says that CF is "too eager".
- Puts me at L-1 to "get info from me" -

what info?

Page 3- Agrees with a lot of CF says, but then FoSes him anyway.

Why? Cries of "distancing" are heard.

- Says that suspicion of me is wavering, and
suspicion of CF is growing. But vote is still on me. Says
that putting me at L-1 was a move to get information out of me.

- IF you are being honest, Sonic (which I'm not so sure), I'd
say that putting people near lynch is a GREAT way
to get info from them - the info you want is how they
react, and who they think should be lynched instead.

The only problem in your plan (if it is honest) is that I was
ass-busy this week and couldn't take the time to answer
properly.

- "Great move QX" -

this guy seriously wants to see blood

.
Says that me and vampire are the scumpair, but "suspects" CF

Page 4 -
"My common sense tells me that a lynch this quick points out
immediately one out of two scum. So even if Claus did end up
lynched, we already have one mafia pointed out directly.
Although that's one IC gone, there's another one still there. "

In other words, we can myslinch just this once... it will tell us
that one out of 4 players is scum! And we won't lose much, we
still have an IC! (who we don't know if is or is not scum)

- Vampire

Page 1- Random votes me. Questions sonic for the "waiting"
Page 2- Answer me that his random vote and questions are just "rocking the boat".
- Unvotes me when sonic puts me at L-1
- FoSes me because my reasons for voting him are few.

True that.

Asks me how sure I am that he is scum.
- Finds RolandGarros townie. FoSes CF. Finds me slightly scummy.
Page 3 - FoSes CF. Says that there is no reason to defend other
people so early in the game.
- Suggests that L-1 could be distancing between me and sonic.
Page 4 - Says that QX gambit is fabricating reasons to vote
CF and sonic, and votes him.
- Attacks QX again, saying his gambit was just a mean to try to get
one of CF/Sonic/Me lynched. Says that has pro-town feelings
regarding CF.
- says QX is scum.

- Roland

Page 2- Random vote Quitex "hey buddy!"
- Vampire seems a legit newbie town, and claus doesn't seem
scummy. Find CF defending sonic strange. We shouldn't be
"lynching" ICs -

We shouldn't be making lynch/no lynch
judgement based on someone's IC status.

Page 3- Accuses Sonic of Distancing from CF. Says that CF's "L-1 are
safe" theory is good.
- Quick discussion between Roland and CF regarding potatoes.
Seems kinda empty.
- "discusses" QX strategy -

uuuh, his strategy is craplogic. an IC should know better.

Page 4 - Oh yeah, now that you mention it, QX plan was quite bad.
I think I see him as scum now. Yep. (no vote).

- Chickenfish

Page 2- Questions my logic about "random votes = bad".
Votes me for not liking my logic.
- Says that only mafia don't use "randomvote"
Says that I'm overeager so keep the vote on me.
- FoSes battousai for FoSing sonic.

CF is rigth when he says that
L-2 is not dangerous, but you shouldn't be putting people at L-1
without a good reason. Mafia, or overeager townies could
hammer.

- Reaffirms that L-1 is not a dangerous place. FoSes Batt for
"assuming everyone could be scum".
Page 3- he defended Sonic because Batt's logic was crap - except it
wasn't.

I'm starting to feel that CF is buddying it up to sonic.

- Quick discussion between Roland and CF regarding potatoes.

don't see the point of this discussion.

Page 4 - Denounces Quitex logic, and says that He and me are partners,
and need to be lynched today.

What happened to vampire? And
what did I do to you, man?

- Battosai

Page 2- Random votes Roland
- FoS sonic for putting me at L-1. then say everyone but Vampire
could be scum.

The FoS everyone is naive, but not entirely bad.

Page 3- The everybody list came from overthinking why Claus wasn't
dead yet. I'm not a noob. I don't like pairing.
- Everyone, please remove your random votes.
Page 4- Says that QX is slightly scummy, but not sure.

- Quitex

Page 2- Full read of the game. FoS CF and Sonic. Theorizes Claus/Vampire
scumpair. Ask me to elaborate on differences between 26 and 32:
Page 3- Puts me at L-1, to draw out scum to hammer me. Says that if no
one hammers me, then CF and Sonic must me scum

= THIS MAKES NO SENSE! if you tell your plan ahead of time like this,
it disappears in a puff of WIFOM! = for instance, if Roland were scum,
all he has to do is not vote, and you will suspect CF and Sonic.
Craplogic-dar pinging.

Page 4- unvotes me.

Seems that the vote on me and the "plan" was a farce

. Accuses
Vampire and CF based on their reactions.
- Votes sonic, asks Vampire to vote with him. Accuses vampire
of misrepresenting him but don't out and out says he's scum.



============
Next post:

I'll answer some questions people made to me.

[Claus]

@Claus
Are these the only two reasons for voting me?
Say you had to put money on me being mafia $0-$10 how much would you lay down?

1 - Yep. Those two reasons were all I had for voting you.
2 - Excellent question. At the time I voted, I would lay down maybe $3. Make it $3.14 because Math is Sexy.

Now, vampire, in my experience, the best way to play D1 is to start voting on weak, but valid reasons (and I think you acknowledged that that is exactly what my first vote was), and slowly either make your case stronger based on the reactions of the other person, or change to a stronger case if you see that nothing will fall from the tree you are shaking. Continuing your "bet" analogy, think of it as drawing a low pair, putting a few chips on the table, and then hoping to get something better on the draw, or folding if you don't.

I think this strategy draws more and more interesting reactions, when compared to pure random/joke voting.

I liked your responses to my vote, and your later game tells me that you are really trying to scumhunt. So If I were to put money now, it would be less than 0.5$.

unvote

Claus contradicted himself. @ post 26 he tells that: "I don't think that random vote generates any info to the town", and @ post 35: "All votes bring info". Please elaborate on this, Claus.

Yeah, that was a very poor attempt at trying to convince you guys that random vote is not the cool thing everyone think it is.

All votes bring "some" info, but the more random a vote is, the less info it brings. Totally random votes (dice tags, random.org, etc), bring almost no info (except "hey, I want to vote but I don't want to be held responsible for my vote). Joke votes come next. Votes without stated reason are slightly better, and votes with light reasons, accompanied by questions, seem to me the most profitable way to get discussion going D1.

Anyway, this is strategy discussion, not scumhunting discussion - maybe we should continue this on the "mafia discussion" board.

=================
Next, some opinion on the players and the game, and a new vote before I go away.

[Claus]

Ok, here are my impressions of these 4 pages:

Strategy discussion:
Is L-1 safe?

I agree only partially to CF's "L-1 is safe". Of course, the hammer vote draws attention on D2. On the other hand, the town eventually needs to hammer, to move the game forward.

Personally, I don't find the hammer vote any more suspicious that the other 3 votes that are also needed to lynch someone. There are exceptions, like the quick hammer, and the "yeah, you're right" hammer. But in general I don't think a reasoned hammer vote any more suspicious than a reasoned L-1 vote.

So, my position on L-2 and L-1 is this:

L-2 is nothing. Second votes by themselves don't put a lot of pressure on newbie games. Don't be afraid to second vote, even for weak reasons, and don't make a big deal of them.

L-1 requires responsibility. When we reach L-1, the three people voting must be held responsible by their votes. They want the lynchee dead. If you are random voting, not really THAT suspicious, or trying some crazy theory, you don't belong to L-1.

That said, don't be afraid to go to L-1 if you are ready to take responsibility for your vote. In other words, if you are reasonably suspicious, even if not 100% certain, by all means do put that L-1 vote. The reason is that L-2 is too weak, in a newbie game you need to get to L-1 to put pressure on someone. These numbers don't necessarily hold true for larger games.

In short. L-1 is not exactly "safe". It implies that the three people voting are ready to have the votee dead.

Ok, this was a piece of playstyle discussion. Some people may disagree with me, but that was just an honest piece of IC'ing.

Now for scumhunting:
=======================
Player list (I'm being a bit nicer here than I usually am)

Nice List (people I don't find so scummy):

Vampire:

Handled my questions well, and I feel he is genuinely trying to scumhunt. What is your current opinion of Sonic? I feel that you are so happy for having "caught" QX, that you might fall pray to tunnel vision.

Battousai:

He has been extremely timid in his play. He FoSed Sonic for the L-1, and then spoke out against pairing, both of which I find good points. But he has not really gone after anybody.

A bit TOO timid to be scum. I would like to know more clearly who he thinks is scum. Battousai, if you HAD to kill two players right now, who would they be and why?

Unlisted (people I find a little scummy)

Roland:

Seems to be playing okay, making questions and positioning himself. Sitting back a little, but maybe that is his IC style (let the newbies run the show).

The only thing that pinged my scumdar about Roland is that he readly accepts QX "plan" as good, and that "good results could come from it". It gets a little worse when Vampire questions this and Roland backtracks a bit. I could see Roland-scum doing this to "buddy up" with QX. Roland, do you have any comments?

Also, your list is Sonic/CF/QX. How much more scummy do you think Sonic is related to CF? And CF related to QX?

QX:

I liked his initial re-read and questions. Paper trail. I don't agree with the A and B are a pair, or C and D are a pair - I think that leaves a lot of margin for error. I Like the analysis of "reasons to vote".

The "plan" is dumb. Just dumb. If its REAL reason was really to test if Sonic + CF are scum, it fails due to WIFOM, specially when you spell it all out in your post. If you really wanted to do this, you should have just voted me with a minimal or non-existant reason, and see what happened.

But later he backtracks a bit, and it seems his "plan" was actually an elaborate way to fish for reactions. If it was that, it is quite smarter.

Still a backtrack is a backtrack, and this feels a bit odd for me, I'll put you on my neutral list for unpredictability.

Naughty List:

CF:

Extremely agressive and overeager. Which is funny, because these seem to be the reasons he is voting me for.

He seems extremely on the wall with regards to Sonic. But I wonder if this is because Sonic is playing along with his game ("I'm right!" pride)

His accusations of QX border the OMGUSy.

And the really strange thing is that his vote is based on a Playstyle disagreement between me and him - The value of random vote thing. Still his vote is firmly planted on me, and every time he attacks someone, he tries to link them to me.

2 theories: 1- I was not active, and thus an easy target. And the linkings he made would be used as basis for a D2 lynch. 2- he is an extremely stubborn townie.

CF- I would like you to sum up your case on me BEFORE these posts. Because I don't see how a playstyle disagreement can be such a strong reason for your 4 page long vote. If I was scum, what would I gain by telling people that random votes are not such a hot idea?

Sonic:

While CF is agressive, and thus possibly an overeager townie, Sonic is just bloodthirsty.

He spends two posts on page 1 saying he is "waiting for stuff to happen". Then he random votes, and says CF is suspicious out of the blue.

He puts me in L-1 to get "info out of me"... but doesn't make me any questions. What kind of info exactly you wanted? How would I know? He didn't even say I was suspicious, and that vote sat there a loooong time (i think it is still there, right?)

Then the next post, he agrees with everything that CF says, but FoS'es him. The fact that he just did something similar to me makes me wonder if this is distancing, or if he is really trying to throw dirt on CF for my lynch.

his post number 9 says nothing at all.

Then he buddies up QX by going "great move!" then throwing dirt on Vampire out of nowhere. He thinks I'm scum - that is the first time he actually says that, because his original vote was to "get info from me".

And his last post:

My common sense tells me that a lynch this quick points out immediately one out of two scum. So even if Claus did end up lynched, we already have one mafia pointed out directly. Although that's one IC gone, there's another one still there.

Is terrible as well. He is trying to convince us that If you mislynch me, then that would be okay because the hammerer would be the "mafia pointed out directly?". "One ic gone, but we still have one" seems like "hey, I'm not sure, but we don't lose much by lynching him".

So Sonic's vote starts as info vote, then I'm scum with vampire (even though I had posted nothing in between), and then it would be an okay mislynch, because the hammerer would be scum.

Holy "I don't believe in the reasons I'm in this bandwagon but I'm pushing for it anyway" batman!

====================

Vote: Sonic

Pretty sure he's clumsy scum.

And now I leave for my trip. Maybe I'll be able to check in, but probably you won't hear from me again until wednesday.

Take care!

[Claus]

CF. You have not yet answered my question. If possible, please do it. What, before my big post, have made you so convinced that I am scum?

You keep just repeating it over and over again, without anything to back it up it seems. Wishing it does not makes it true. If you are town, you need to consider other options and discard/confirm them, and/or back up your votes.

Finally, I did add information to the game. In particular, I backed out of my vote on Vampire, because I realized I was wrong about him. And I think my case on Sonic is pretty worthwhile.

Do you disagree that he gave three completely reasons to vote me (to get info, because I'm scum, because a claus myslinch would reveal the scum) in the period where I gave NO feedback into the game?

This means that his reasons for voting me are completely divorced from whatever I did in game - in other words, fabricated. That is a pretty big scumtell.

[Claus]

EBWOP - three completely different reasons

(EBWOP - edit by way of (new) post, since we can't edit the posts directly)

[Claus]

@Claus: I haven't replied to your question because my vote was already explained - it's like asking Quitex to tell me why he thinks sonic and I are scum...

You see, here is the problem. It seems to me that you are starting to see the game in terms of "teams" - me and Quitex against you and Sonic. I did the very same mistake in my first game here.

Now, last post, I did a short, to the point summary of why I think Sonic scummy (and I have to reply to his post). I want you to do the same thing.

I see your posts as a jumbled mess - If you are scum, you are trying to hide the wholes in your logic by shouting very loud and waving a lot. If you are town, this exercise may help you see if there is something wrong in your logic.

Also, a second question I made to you, which you did not answer, is: what do you think of my reasons to find Sonic scummy? Do you agree/disagree with them, and why?

I'll reply the other questions directed at me later - Sorry to leave you hanging, Quitex, Vampire and Sonic.

[Claus]

Replying to Sonic's answer. I'll reply to Vampire's earlier question later.

(sorry if my posts seem broken in the "flow" of the game - I try to put the questions and messages directed at my in a pile, and take the older posts from that pile first).

and that vote sat there a loooong time (i think it is still there, right?)

Yes, it's still there. You had said that you are supposed to vote people and see how they react, but I think I misunderstood or something.

I have reacted a bit since your vote. And other people have done stuff as well. Do you still have reasons to have your vote sitting on me, and if so, what reasons are those?

I don't quite remember an FOS, just an FOMS. It wasn't any heavy suspicion.

You know, Sonic. That is my big problem with you. You don't have "heavy suspicions" on anyone. That is called "wish-washy"-ness.

Then he buddies up QX by going "great move!"

I meant "great move" in a sense that I thought it was a good idea to create a list of possibilities.

Except that it was not. But okay, I'll take this answer.

I see my mistake here. ICs are more important than I'd originally assumed. I can see that ICs are heavily depended upon for newbies.

This is very confusing Sonic. If you are honest about the confusion, let me tell you this: ICs are not important to the "town x scum" game - don't vote or unvote based on that. The two ICs are here just to clear doubts and to point out "poor" play (in the sense that it goes against the common sense - we're not perfect, but we try our best).

I still think there is a very real chance that you are scum. But maybe I am misunderstanding the way you play. If you could provide us with a list of players and what you think about them at this moment, it would help. Try to be concise.

[Claus]

@Quitex: I was, in fact, NOT insulting your broken English, and I highly suspected it wasn't your first language anyway, and as such would mean no offense. I was more pointing out that Claus had a go at me for apparent 'jumbled posting', which comes across as odd in the contrast. That is all.

To be honest with you, I was quickly re-reading Quitex now, and he also has a serious problem of Jumbled posting. He could also use some re-reading of his posts before posting for clarity.

[Claus]

Answering Vampire:

I would put $1 that either Sonic or CF are scum. However, I would put the same dollar that BOTH of them are not scum.

I'll wait for sonic's answer to my last post before making an acessment of which of them is more likely to be scum.

About Quitex, I have not read quitex that closely. A quick re-read of his posts got me confused (his posts are very messed up - a bit like the CF, but without the fury). The big red sign in Quitex play is his "I'm sure roland is town, I know his playstyle". I have not seen roland as that town - he is simply not participating in the game much.

Gotta run.

[Claus]

@claus the max bet was $10 so a $1 bet doesn't convey much conviction,

Ooops, I mis-read your post. I thought it was a 0-1 bet.

This is why I don't really like "numeric" scummyness value. My personal way of putting this is that, at the time of that post, Sonic, then CF, were on the top of my list. I'm doing another read now and will post some more soon.

[Claus]

Answering some (not so) recent questions

As for why I think you're scummy:
Initial vote was for making contradictions like 'randomvoting gives no info' and 'all votes give info'.

How would that help me, if I were scum? Using that as a initial voting reason is just fine, but I can't see this as a scumtell.

After that you seemed to be trying to lead the town into doing what you wanted it to do, such as 'What do you think of this Chickenfish?' and asking questions of people who were seemingly irrelevant to the statements.

Trying to lead the town is not a scumtell. Asking questions is not a scumtell. I know what you think of this "Oh, asking questions just let the scum... answer those questions!", but I think you are wrong in that regard. Asking questions is a good way to poke holes in the positions held by scum.

For instance, Sonic was not able to answer most of the questions that I posed him, instead resorting to "well, my suspicions were not thaaaaat strong", and eventually backing out of his vote on me.

Since then it has been some sort of cross between overeagerness and simply turning a blind eye to the obvious idiocy of Quitex that makes me suspicious.

I don't think Quitex is being an idiot any more than you are being an idiot. Chill down, getting personal in this game is a no-no - this is a game. Cool down.

Your point is a good one, though, I haven't paid as much attention to Quitex's game as I have to yours or Sonic's game. Blame that on the fact that Quitex is not attacking me. So you are wrong linking me to QX.

The same way, I was linking you to Sonic because you were turning an almost complete blind eye to Sonic's game. Would you deny that? That is why I asked YOUR opinion about sonic - because it seemed to me (and it still seems) that you are ignoring his game.

You may find it dumb that I think only parts of QX's plays are scummy, while you find his "whole game completely idiotic", but that is the point: pointing out specific weak spots on people's game (like his strange position towards Roland) is more effective for sorting out scum than a blanket attack on the person itself.

=========================

@claus why only mention CFs post and not Qxs as you must have known that it would make you look biased?

Honestly, because I'm not reading this game as closely as I should. You must have seen that recently I reckognized that mistake. Let's see if I can make up for it.

Only that I noticed that Claus seemed very defensive when I began to suspect him. However, I do realize that this doesn't point to scum. That's the only thing I have to say, really.

Defensiveness is not a scumtell. If I'm defensive, it is because I see that you don't seem to have a reason of your own to consider me scum. Except that now that CF is going after Quitex, you don't want to vote for me anymore - because it "went nowhere" - So I'm not scummy anymore? Interesting.

Discussion between CF and Vampire on posts 139-143:

People have different ways to play. Someone who plays differently than you is NOT a scumtell. Careful about that. I'd say that both are contributing well as their first games, so let's not get into a fight about that.

I personally think that Vampire's "what do you think of this?" style is conductive to scumhunting rather than just stating what you think, CF. Since one of the reasons you think that I'm scum is because I was asking questions, I can see where you disagree with that, but I think you are wrong here.

Not everyone will want to put all their thoughts forward, and some people are quite confortable lurking. Asking direct questions is a good way to find out if someone has something to hide, and is also a nice way to make a stale game move.

==============

Okay, I don't have more time to re-read today.

My current scumlist is:
Sonic

I'm pretty sure he is the scum - his answers and recent comments have not cleared him in my eyes. If I'm right, I think that it is unlikely that CF is his partner.

I will put QX and Roland next in my list, for different reasons: Roland, because he is hiding in the shadows in this game. QX, mainly because of his "roland is town", which I see as a scumtell. One small towntell for QX, though, is his early gambit. Although that gambit was dumb, I don't see a scum being so daring. I might be wrong, though.

CF is neutral as well. His furious game does not sit right with me, even though I usually see that as a town-tell. I certainly don't see Sonic and CF scum - hugged too tight to me, although the constant "Oh, he is suspicious, yeah! FoS" from sonic towards CF negates that a little bit. But on average, I can't see both as scum together.

I don't have a good read at battousai. His early posts seemed townish enough, but I haven't followed his later posts that closely. Shame.

I'm pretty confident about vampire's towness. Seems to be genuinely scumhunting.

========================

And with this I leave for another week-long trip. I might be able to access the net and answer questions in the mean time, but don't count on it.

Good luck!

[Claus]

picked up the prod. Sorry about that people. Allow me some time to catch up with the recent posts.

[Claus]

Quick, quick post. Wow, you guys doubled the number of pages while I was away!

I'll grab some memorable quotes from these pages and comment on them as I go.

This is the short version of the story, though: Sonic in these pages seem to have changed to the better, and QX is looking much worse. Roland mysterious behavior seemed to serve only ONE reason to me: save QX's butt.

unvote. Vote QX

FOS: roland

mod: please prod sonic

Will do.

Sonic, when you're back, please try to do the same thing I did below, commenting on the thread from your last post.

See you guys tomorrow night.

===

Vampire - good "point system". I'll probably try to use that in the future.

Let me tell you that the most pro-town player in this game has been Claus, mostly because he's one of the ICs but I guess his pro-townish behavior is very natural and not intnetional (intentional as "I'm scum! I must act pro-townish")

Whut?

Claus told that one clear scumtell from myself is to tell that I think that Roland is town. Well, I really think he is town. Reasons? Maybe not as active as we would want to, but when he comes he makes good questions and give acceptable answers.

While this is true of his latest posts, this is not what you originally pegged him as town for. That was because of his "play style, which you are used to".

Strange then that CF has stuck to this theory most of the game,

Sticking to one's theory stubbornly, for me, is a small town tell, although I have been proven wrong on that before. I still stick to this theory on general principles. This is one of the reasons I favored Sonic over CF for a lynch.

- QX post 200 is full of lose.

- I kinda liked Sonic's defense on 201

- Sonoc's questions to the ICs:
Wifom is circular reasoning. Just that. Sometimes it is overused in mafia games.

Question to the ICs: is it considered a good or bad move to try and get things that people said a while ago, several pages back, like how I just did with Quitex's quote?

Anything is fair game. But if you dig a VERY old quote, take into account the possibility that your target may have changed his mind in the meanwhile. Of course, if he did, you should consider the reasons for he changing his mind.

- 216 post is bad. Nitpicking much, QX?
- - 3 times of not acting very town-like.
1- Your trap
2- You assuming a lurking roland was town
3- you suddenly assuming that I was town
4- you changing your reasons to assume that roland was town
5- you accusing vampire of being scum for something that was quite pro-town like.

Ooops, that was one too many.

- 219
Ouch Sorry about that, really - I did not expect these days to be this busy, but I'll try to catch up more.

- 224
I agree with roland that you can't put people at L-1 JUST to get a reaction. Like I said before, you must truly think that the person is scum (or, that the person would be a good lynch, which in very small games is the same thing). I think the QX L-1 at this time is appropriate.

However, sometimes L-1 may _also_ server as "asking for reaction". Some players never contribute unless their neck is on the line. Note the word _also_ however. Using L-1 only for reaction is not smart (I think).

Also, I think Vampire's non-sequitur was just blowing off steam of a very tiring game. I don't see it as anti-town.

- 225/226
Vampire vote is kind of good. Roland's answer is kind of good as well. I don't agree with the "Newbies should play it out" as much as roland, but I can see his point. However, this justifiable reason to taking a backseat is a very good hiding place for scum who don't want to position themselves (and this is why roland is not so townie to my eyes).

Well, there are still 4 pages around, let's see what roland comes up with.

- 228
good PbP on quitex and roland.

- 230
This is a non-sequitur. Quitex, what would be the purpose of a most townie list? Giving the scum a list of who they should kill first?

While I'm not as nazi as some players are about saying "So and So is probably town", as you have seen, an out and out list like that only helps scum. (think about the difference between a scum listing and a town listing).

Leading. The. Town. Is. NOT. A. SCUMTELL.

- 241
Roland, my opinion (as I read this posts), is that QX got caught red-handed here. While I still have a lingering suspicion of Sonic, his last posts* were better than his firsts, and his answers were good.

Vampire's case on QX is good, and his case on you is reasonable. As it stands, I think QX is a good lynch.

* (although he has disappeared, but I can't complain about that, can I?)

- 249
Democracy IS overrated (as a political system), but In general I agree with this post very much.

- 250
You know, since vampire started pushing harder for QX and linking him to roland, roland started attacking him in a way that seems quite underhanded to me. He keeps saying "this looks wrong", "this looks wrong", but he doesn't go out and out to say that vampire is scum (like CF did to me), or that vampire is wrong and the scum is someone else (like I did to CF).

This post crowns this sentiment. Roland wants to blow away the suspicion on QX with an argument about RL politics. Me no like.

- 257
Don't like the feeling in this post.

- 261
Pride trap. Vampire is now dragged into defending his chart-child, when we could be talking about post 228, which is much more interesting.

- Roland, I must agree with vampire that your "I'm misteryous" attitude does not help. We as IC should help the newbies figure out things by themselves, but you are taking this a bit too far. Town has very little reason to flaunt to be hiding intentions like this. Scum point for you sir.

- 274
OMG, roland is doing the ultra hidden training to transform vampire into the ULTIMATE MAFIA PLAYER in a single game. What now, are you going to put him to wax in, wax out cars in a garage?

Colour me doubtful.

- 290 and 295:
Roland is not asking vampire important stuff. He is picking vampires arguments and not actually saying that vampire is scum (quite to the countrary, since he said he didn't want to lynch him).

Vampire on the other hand, WAS asking questions out of everyone.

So, you are making things out backwards, QX.

- 299
Roland, I must admit, you are a great troll. You have been this for 2 pages with mastery. But I still don't see where you want to lead this if you are town. Your current attitude only makes sense to me as scum.

- The next 10 or so posts

AAAAAAAAAAAARGH! You two guys put a lid on it!

- 315
Yeah, it is. Sorry, CF.

[Claus]

Ouch. That hurt. Go town.

[Claus]

Wow. Well, I was right about Sonic. AND I was right about CF. Angry people != scum.

Surprisingly good game scum. The CF and Vampire headbutting kinda handed it over for you, but you handled the opportunity well. I'll try to write more detailed comments later.

Also sorry for not being a more active player in the first day. That week sucked.

[Claus]

Also, it was a lovely game where no one got replaced, and the pacing of posting was fast! Thanks for the game, everyone!

[Claus]

I think I made a post about the night kill of claus mentioning this and said it unlikely but not impossible that they were a scum team and paired sonic most likey to batt.

From the little I read of D2, I think this was your critical mistake. Trying to guess the reasons for nightkill is WIFOM to the highest degree, and usually a fruitless enterprise. You need to work with what you HAVE i.e. what is written in the thread.

I think this game is also a great opportunity for CF and Vamp to learn to differentiate between a tunneling stubborn town, who honestly believes you are scum, and craplogicking scum. But I think you two played well, in the "spirit of the game" sense.

Batt, if you have the nighttalk logs, I'm sure people would love to see them.

[Claus]

Yeah, the pace of this game was good, we didn't even need any replacements. That was impressive!