[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[DarthYoshi]

@ABR: I can see how a Mafia rolecop would help out the Hardboiled setup, but I think if you did that, maybe change it to a 13-player setup and add an extra VT? The PRs in Hardboiled are already pretty swingy, and a rolecop that would help the Maf eliminate them sooner seems more apt to increase that swinginess, whereas an extra VT would give town a second mislynch in case the game swings towards the worst-case scenario for town (which is, D1 mislynch on town, and three town die N1 (tracker/vig chooses vig and shoots town, maf shoots town, and hider hides between one of the two shot townies), which creates MyLo on D2). A Mafia rolecop + 1 VT would, together, address both balance and swinginess.

Just a thought, take it FWIW.

[DarthYoshi]

Here is what my brain comes up with when it has had one too many Starbucks Doubleshots to start the day. I give you...

Faith Plus One!

11-player setup

3 Mafia Goons

2 Town-aligned Faith Healers

1 Town-aligned Sane Cop

5 Vanilla Townies

Special Mechanic: If both Faith Healers protect the same person in one night, the protection is guaranteed to not work. Y'know, competing religions and whatnot.

Day start.

What do people think? I literally just thought of it on my way to work this morning while mulling in my head the recent discussion about the brokenness of the Basic 12P setup. So feel free to critique it, both good and bad.

Edit:

version 1.1, per Empking's suggestion, is the following 13-player setup:

3 Mafia Goons
2 Town-aligned Faith Healers
1 Town-aligned Sane Cop
7 Vanilla Townies

Same special mechanic, and still daystart.

[DarthYoshi]

BTW, bonus points to anyone who gets the pop culture reference in the game's title.

[DarthYoshi]

@Emp: So, 13-player setup w/ 7 VTs?

[DarthYoshi]

Magua--that's why they're faith healers and not doctors. Even if a faith healer dies and the cop is outed, scum still have a minimum 50% chance of NKing the cop regardless of faith healer protection.

[DarthYoshi]

Chkflip--I'm flattered; by all means, go for it. We're far enough apart in the Open queue that it should be fine.

[DarthYoshi]

Magua--faith healers are docs with a 50% success rate. I added the 0% success rate for protecting the same person for this setup as an unconventional way to discourage the follow-the-cop tactic with the added benefit of upping the WIFOM factor. Plus, two faith healers would make for interesting scum claim/CC scenarios, I'm hoping.

[DarthYoshi]

@Tragedy--by "positive" and "negative" results what do you mean? Positive = innocent or guilty?

[DarthYoshi]

Oh, so FBI agents are basically rolecops searching for VTs? I thought by townie you meant alignment.

[DarthYoshi]

bvoigt, how would a lynch threshold be calculated? By total number of potential votes, or of number of votes functionally available, etc? I could see detrimental potential for no-lynches there.

Unrelated, and addressed to entire thread:


Had a thought about my Faith Plus One setup—as a variation to spice things up for anyone for whom the 1.1 version is too conventional, I offer the 1.2 version, which substitutes the cop for a town-aligned JOAT with exclusively investigatory powers:

3 Mafia Goons

2 Town-aligned Faith Healers (doctors with a 50% failure rate)

1 Town-aligned Jack-of-All-Trades w/ the following 1-shot abilities: Investigate, Track, Watch

7 Vanilla Townies

Special Mechanic: If both Faith Healers protect the same person on a given night, the protection is guaranteed to fail.

Day start.

Thoughts? Criticisms?

[DarthYoshi]

Balance looks okay, lot depends on the JOAT but that might not be a bad thing. It's your standard 10/3 split, and 3 weak town power roles. It being open means they're confirmable (although obv scum can claim them) in fact any scum being lynched should claim JOAT. Hmm. With the faith healers there then it makes it even more interesting.

I was thinking about that myself--the JOAT definitely makes the game swingier (which I am okay with atm), but I'm also wondering if it actually weakens the town compared to having a straight-up alignment cop, and if maybe giving the JOAT a one-shot rolecop ability as well might be in order.

I personally think the first scum strung up would be more likely to claim FH, as until a FH flips, there can't be a credible CC. Second scum would def claim JOAT, tho.

And, the % part can't really be avoided. If both faith healers were doc's, it'd be a broken setup, as Magua pointed out earlier.

[DarthYoshi]

Herodotus: In that setup, I'm assuming would the docs not be told if they were effective or not, and that if one died, they would simply flip doctor, with no indication of effectiveness?

That's an interesting twist for sure.

[DarthYoshi]

Awesome. Me likey too. Thanks for the feedback and suggestions!

So right now, I've got four possible setups. All four have 3 Mafia Goons and 7 VTs:

v 1.1
2 Town-aligned Faith Healers (each w/ 50% failure rate)
1 Town-aligned Sane Cop

v 1.2
2 Town-aligned Faith Healers (each w/ 50% failure rate)
1 Town-aligned Jack-of-all-Trades w/ one-shot investigate, track, watch, and rolecop abilities


v 1.3
1 Town-aligned Righteous Faith Healer (not told they are effective, simply flips FH)
1 Town-aligned Heretic Faith Healer (not told they are ineffective, simply flips FH)
1 Town-aligned Sane Cop (can call him/her/it an Inquisitor or whatever for flavor purposes)

v 1.4
1 Town-aligned Righteous Faith Healer
1 Town-aligned Heretic Faith Healer
1 Town-aligned Jack-of-all-Trades w/ one-shot investigate, track, watch, and rolecop abilities

1.1 is obviously the most conventional, and 1.4 is obviously the swingiest (though I actually like a rolecop for the JOAT in 1.4, as the JOAT would learn a doc's role, but not their effectiveness, mmmmm). That being said, any other significant kinks in any of these (balance or otherwise)? If Farside approves, I am for sure going to run one of these versions for my Open game once I'm at the top of the mod queue.

[DarthYoshi]

Oh.

Why shouldn't ppl moderate their own setups in the Open queue? I understand that it needs to be nominated first, but I'm genuinely just wondering--I never heard of such a rule.

[DarthYoshi]

Faith Plus One.

It is the name of Cartman's Christian rock band in an episode of South Park several years back.

[DarthYoshi]

Animorpherv--in all versions, the FH's would not be allowed to self-protect, so the best case scenario for them cross-protecting each other would be in v. 1.1 and 1.2, where each protection still has a 50% chance of failure (is this what you were thinking of?).

In 1.3 and 1.4 (the versions w/ the fix Herodotus suggested), there is a 100% ineffective FH, so the FH's cannot effectively cross-protect.

[DarthYoshi]

I love how chkflip is pushing my setup even harder than I am.

Andrew--that setup could still be broken with the follow-the-cop technique.

Animorpherv--very sorry I forgot to reply to you, man--if making the faith healers immune to protection is necessary for approval, then I'll totally allow that change, but tbh, I'm not as worried about it--other setups get by w/ multiple protective roles without those roles having to be immune to protection.

[DarthYoshi]

@animorpherv--but w/ one protective + one investigatory role (rather than two protective), couldn't the town still have two cleared townies in a day? The point of Faith Plus One is to allow both protective and investigatory roles in an open setup without relying on the more cliched solutions of maf roleblockers, macho cops, etc.

@cjdrum--with that many investigatory roles in the game, I'd make one of the mafia a godfather or ninja at the very least.

[DarthYoshi]

@Quil--just curious, why a watcher instead of a tracker?

Also, what about adding a Miller to help mitigate that 3rd scenario of doc + cop w/ no maf RB?

[DarthYoshi]

@Quil--just curious, why a watcher instead of a tracker?

Also, what about adding a Miller to help mitigate that 3rd scenario of doc + cop w/ no maf RB?

because then the miller knows the setup and it is outed when he outs

because tracker if tracking roleblocker may see both the kill and the RB. I don't want this happening


I don't want a framer because then the scumteam knows the setup.

Re: tracker--fair 'nuff, mostly I was worried about the broken doc + watcher combo, but I think this setup avoids it.

Re: miller--sorry, I should clarify--have it be like, a 50% chance there is a miller in the setup regardless?

I do like the setup. I also despise maf RBs. And yet, the third scenario does worry me a tad. If there is a minor tweak to be had, I'll second the nomination gladly.

[DarthYoshi]

Quil--you could add a mechanic like what is in the "Follow the Cop...or Not" setup, where if the cop is protected (or watched?), his investigation result comes back either paranoid (always guilty) or naive (always innocent).

Or...just make the cop macho. Since the cop won't know if there is a doc or a watcher, that should prevent the cop from outing him/herself on D1.

I think you're on the right track with this setup, though, so I'll second Amrun's nomination if/when that minor tweak can be had.

second "Scales of Justice"

[DarthYoshi]

Medical School of Hard Knocks

1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Rolecop

2 Town-Aligned Armed Compulsive Doctors
1 Town-Aligned Tracker
4 Vanilla Townies

Special mechanic: The Armed Compulsive Doctors begin the game as any typical Compulsive Doctor--they must protect one person per night and cannot choose to not protect. If their protection is ever successful, they are notified and stripped of their protecting powers, and instead given a one-shot vig ability. (This role was originated by, I think, the Fonz over on the "Should the Doctor be Euthanized?" thread--I just added the compulsive part.)

The Mafia also has a factional one-shot Hitman ability (a kill that bypasses protection).

Day start.

Seriously just something I thought off the top of my head, and the number of respective playslots may still need to be tweaked, but thoughts?

[DarthYoshi]

I like this. This makes the compulsive doctors think very carefully about who to protect, as it gives them a powerful role.

Question: will the 1-shot vig ability be compulsive?

Thanks! I actually thought about making the one-shot vig ability be compulsive and decided against it, because if it happened on, say, the night of MyLo, town auto-loses.

I'm also open to suggestions for a more catchy title from anyone.

[DarthYoshi]

@CSL: You're right, but I think encouraging bad vig play like that (on the night of MyLo, or the night before LyLo, I think optimal vig play is to NOT shoot) is not something the setup should be aiming to do.

That being said, not having the vig be compulsive isn't an idea I'm wedded to--if it'll help the game get put in the open queue, I'm happy to change it, but given the choice, I'd rather make the vig action elective rather than compulsory.

[DarthYoshi]

Hoopla--I'm actually fine with the IC/tracker choice, if anything, I might give the Maf PR playslot a choice of a Hitman ability to counter it.

I agree with Quil that there is no reason why the maf PR would choose GF or BP; maybe take them out and give it the Hitman choice (making the Hitman 1, 2, etc -shot if need be for balance)?

I do like the concept an awful lot, though. If the maf PR slot can be tweaked, I'll gladly nominate it.

[DarthYoshi]

@CSL: You're right, but I think encouraging bad vig play like that (on the night of MyLo, or the night before LyLo, I think optimal vig play is to NOT shoot) is not something the setup should be aiming to do.

That being said, not having the vig be compulsive isn't an idea I'm wedded to--if it'll help the game get put in the open queue, I'm happy to change it, but given the choice, I'd rather make the vig action elective rather than compulsory.

An elective vig is better, because it can choose not to shoot unless he's pretty sure of who scum is.

At the same time I like the idea that they *must* shoot.
They don't prevent a death altogether they just delay and move the death onto someone else.

That's a fair point, and I think it is a really intriguing role concept; I just don't know how to properly balance that for situations like MyLo or whatnot.

I think the setup has only been nommed and 2nded (by CSL and Quil respectively), if I can coerce/bribe/enchant someone else into 3rding/nthing it, I'd be a very happy evil dinosaur.

[DarthYoshi]

This feels fixed-ish.

Mafia

(3)

2x Mafia Goons
1x Vigilante Disabler/2-Shot Roleblocker/Role Cop

Town

(10)

1x Cop/Vigilante
1x Innocent Child/Tracker
1x Bodyguard/2-Shot Jailkeeper
7x Townies

~~

- If the Vig Disabler is chosen by scum, it makes the Vig shoot blanks (essentially the opposite of an Enabler). If the Disabler dies, the vig can start shooting.
- Vig doesn't get told if their shot gets blocked or if they shoot blanks.

Why have the vig disabler, exactly? If I draw the Vig/Cop playslot, and I know there is a guaranteed protective role of some sort in the setup, I'm choosing Cop every time.

[DarthYoshi]

Farside: correct, if the hitman ability bypasses a doc protect, then the doc does not receive the vig ability then.

[DarthYoshi]

Sleepwalker Mafia

1 Godfather
2 Mafia Goons
1 Sleepwalker
1 Sane Cop
1 Sane Doc
7 Vanilla Townie

-The Sleepwalker is Town-aligned. They win when all threats have been eliminated.
-The Sleepwalker does not know that they are the Sleepwalker. They get a Vanilla Townie Role PM.
-If the Cop targets the Sleepwalker, the Cop is killed. They still get a "Town" read though.
-If the Doc targets the Sleepwalker, the Doc is killed. The Sleepwalker is not protected.
-If the Mafia targets the Sleepwalker, the Godfather is killed, but flips town. The Sleepwalker is safe.
-The Godfather is simply a Mafia Goon who sends the NK PM.

Another idea of mine... feedback please...

The Sleepwalker sounds basically like a Paranoid Gun Owner, which is a (usually town aligned) player who shoots anyone who targets them at night. PGOs are extremely swingy roles, and I don't think are a good fit for most setups.

[DarthYoshi]

Also, now that I think about it, that setup can be broken via the follow the cop technique as well.

[DarthYoshi]

Also, now that I think about it, that setup can be broken via the follow the cop technique as well.

A Mafia Roleblocker thrown into the setup could prevent that

So could making the cop macho, or turning the doc into a jailkeeper, both of which I personally think are preferable to inserting a maf roleblocker (but I am certainly in the minority on this issue here).

[DarthYoshi]

Sleepwalker Mafia

1 Godfather
2 Mafia Goons
1 Sleepwalker
1 Sane Cop
1 Sane Doc
7 Vanilla Townie

-The Sleepwalker is Town-aligned. They win when all threats have been eliminated.
-The Sleepwalker does not know that they are the Sleepwalker. They get a Vanilla Townie Role PM.
-If the Cop targets the Sleepwalker, the Cop is killed. They still get a "Town" read though.
-If the Doc targets the Sleepwalker, the Doc is killed. The Sleepwalker is not protected.
-If the Mafia targets the Sleepwalker, the Godfather is killed, but flips town. The Sleepwalker is safe.
-The Godfather is simply a Mafia Goon who sends the NK PM.

Another idea of mine... feedback please...

The Sleepwalker sounds basically like a Paranoid Gun Owner, which is a (usually town aligned) player who shoots anyone who targets them at night. PGOs are extremely swingy roles, and I don't think are a good fit for most setups.

However, correct me if Im wrong, but the PGO is aware of their role. A sleepwalker is a modified PGO. Kind of like Oblivious PGO or somethin

Right, I'm not saying it is exactly the same thing, but mostly the same thing, and quite honestly, that the Sleepwalker doesn't know they are the Sleepwalker only makes the role even swingier than the already-swingy PGO.

[DarthYoshi]

Don't the town essentially control the nightkill, though? One townie will claim doctor on day one. MAfia don't know if its real or not, but can't take the chance it isn't because if it is the real doc they can't kill anyone else. Next day, same thing. If the doctor doesn't die in the night, you know the person claiming was mafia, lynch away!

I guess the mafia could try and shoot elsewhere, but they would have to balance this out with the possibility the actual doctor did claim, and they would be wasting a night.

Solution: Doc is modkilled if he claims.

This is never a solution.

Well, it was the first thing that came to mind.

In the world of mafia, first ideas are sometimes not the best ones.

This is one such case. Vi is right.

[DarthYoshi]

What Sleepy said. This is quite a swingy setup as is.

The Fedex driver is a borderline non-normal role, I'd take it out and give the scum a different PR. So, basically, redo the scum PRs.

The Newb Gunmaker is extremely swingy. I'd remove it.

I do like the idea. If the scum PRs can be redone and the Newb Gunmaker canned, it'd be an interesting game that demanded a higher-than-typical level of skill from the town PRs.