Let's Study Games - Redemption Mechanics

[Malkon05]

I feel like returnees in marathon games have had bigger impacts overall on the game than returnees in long term games.

Like Skelda and Kilby both won marathon games after having been voted off/idoled at one point.

I also feel like people should take how the person went out and what they did with their time back in into consideration. For example, in Power/Courage/Wisdom, I feel like I'd have held Mipha in more regard because she technically was idoled out rather than voted out. Did she leave? Sure, but like it wasn't as bad? Now that game I thought had a pretty good returnee mechanic as well and Mipha was 1 vote away from winning that game after making FTC (the 3rd returnee in MS history to do so in a long form game I believe).

So like sure it's easy to say "I'll never vote a returnee" but like I think criteria needs to be taken into consideration, were they truly voted out or just an unfortunate idol victim? How much time did they spend out of the game? What did they do differently to ensure it didn't happen again after they returned?

I just wish this topic was more...willing to be considered in terms of winnability. I know people have a stigma and if the person didn't use their time well after returning I think that's something to take into consideration.

I ranted a lot about this in Survivor of the Fittest but like it just feels super black and white to have the mentality not to give a returnee a valid shot to make a case because you've already decided they shouldn't win simply because they played the mechanic of the game.


To answer the actual question being asked here, I've had to re-evaluate my stance on this because of some of the responses people gave in the spec lounge for Survivor of the Fittest. I'm not sure returnee mechanics should be in play going forward, because enough people have expressed that they will already be in the mindset of not wanting to vote for a returnee, that ultimately it just makes me think the poor person who went through mental hell to get voted out, fight their way back in, and then not win it all just because they are a returnee is just fighting a battle they will never win.

It's a shitty mindset but like, I've seen no evidence to the contrary thus far. Mipha, Monica & Azmodan were the closest three to accomplish this goal thus far since they all made FTC and lost by 1 vote which partially has to do with returnee bias.

So what's the actual point any further?

For me, I guess I'm more open minded and want to know and would care about things that others wouldn't. I just think it's a problem that none of us care for, so why have it at all?

[Malkon05]

Same question to you, Malkon; when you added a return twist into PvCvW, what were you hoping to gain from the mechanic?

The entire point of PCW was to prevent pagongs and keep the game as socially fluid as possible. So the more returnees that came back with the ability to be open minded to new possibilities that weren't locked in based on prior tribal connections since likely they now knew which people screwed them over.

It...had some moments such as with Ancient Oven who returned at merge with a vengeance against the people who voted her out and actually went on to play a great game and went out because an ally didn't want to risk their own game to keep her in.

On the flip side you have Oaki who came in at the same point who just...jumped in bed with the people who voted him out (and then didn't come back at a crucial tc where they would have saved themselves potentially).

Mipha got idoled out at like f12 or f11 I can't recall (different than Ancient Oven and Oaki) and played a very fluid game when she returned that put her in a position to survive some harrowing situations but I feel she was the most "balanced" and willing to do whatever it took to get farther than the prior two returnees.

So in this case, I think the pagong lines from prior tribes that were already blurred, blurred further for 2/3rds of the people who came back.

In that game all three returnees made f9. Oaki got 9th, Ancient Oven I believe got 7th and Mipha got 2nd.

Both Oaki and Ancient Oven were pre-merge boots that returned at merge.

Mipha was a merge boot (2nd or 3rd) and returned at f9 when the returnee mechanic officially ended.

[Malkon05]

I think part of PCW was also is there an EOE format that can realistically work in an LSG format since it wasn't a 1 and done sort of format, but people had lives and ways to gain or lose lives and unless they either directly asked to "quit" or lost all their lives they could continue, and the final challenge to return involved how well they had been able to salvage those lives, but it also contributed based on the fact that it wasn't just 1 returnee but multiple to helping the overall goal of preventing pagongs.

Forgot to mention that.

[Malkon05]

LOL the Flim/Flam Pinkie Pie drama was hilarious.

[Malkon05]

This site can't handle returnees as a concept so they probably shouldn't exist. I've returned to games twice now and both times felt like hitting a brick wall when you come back. Players alive have no respect for this mechanic and normally that's because people feel safe in their own gameplay so there isn't an attempt to use the mechanic to help themselves.

I just don't think players are going to ever take this mechanic seriously so maybe we just let it die. Now doing variations of it with the fittest challenge isn't bad because the player who gets voted out isn't missing out on gameplay. It's akin to being sent to exile.

Bottom line though, in order for this to work, we have to have a majority of players being willing to accept it as a feasible way to win and I don't think we are there.

This might be jaded Malkon talking, but I see zero lies in this post and this was the point I was trying to make earlier. I think until we can shift our mindset on how we view "survivor" and "returnees" that having the mechanic in LSGs is essentially pointless going forward. It's been tried and has produced nothing positive for anyone. Returnees struggle just to end up being dismissed. People complain about the mechanic.

There's no win with the current mindset of MS.

Live games and meets are different.

[Malkon05]

This site can't handle returnees as a concept so they probably shouldn't exist. I've returned to games twice now and both times felt like hitting a brick wall when you come back. Players alive have no respect for this mechanic and normally that's because people feel safe in their own gameplay so there isn't an attempt to use the mechanic to help themselves.

I just don't think players are going to ever take this mechanic seriously so maybe we just let it die. Now doing variations of it with the fittest challenge isn't bad because the player who gets voted out isn't missing out on gameplay. It's akin to being sent to exile.

Bottom line though, in order for this to work, we have to have a majority of players being willing to accept it as a feasible way to win and I don't think we are there.

I'm way out of the loop on recent MS history, but is this actually true? Has a returnee made it to the end and lost because they were a returnee before?

It's a touch more complicated than that, but there are definitely people who have blatantly said "they would never vote for a returnee to win under any circumstance". During PCW there were definitely people who weren't going to give Mipha the time of day on the sole fact that she missed...what 3 rounds of the game and was idoled rather than truly voted out?

[Malkon05]

This site can't handle returnees as a concept so they probably shouldn't exist. I've returned to games twice now and both times felt like hitting a brick wall when you come back. Players alive have no respect for this mechanic and normally that's because people feel safe in their own gameplay so there isn't an attempt to use the mechanic to help themselves.

I just don't think players are going to ever take this mechanic seriously so maybe we just let it die. Now doing variations of it with the fittest challenge isn't bad because the player who gets voted out isn't missing out on gameplay. It's akin to being sent to exile.

Bottom line though, in order for this to work, we have to have a majority of players being willing to accept it as a feasible way to win and I don't think we are there.

I'm way out of the loop on recent MS history, but is this actually true? Has a returnee made it to the end and lost because they were a returnee before?

It's a touch more complicated than that, but there are definitely people who have blatantly said "they would never vote for a returnee to win under any circumstance". During PCW there were definitely people who weren't going to give Mipha the time of day on the sole fact that she missed...what 3 rounds of the game and was idoled rather than truly voted out?

Was this a significant number of people? It seemed like the Jurors mostly gave her fair consideration, and she came one vote away from winning.

Mipha and Dark Rey were both very close to winning, and I really just disagree with the idea that MS will never vote for a returnee. They might have a more uphill battle, but they probably should. I do think Jurors want more than just being a returnee and making it to the end as an final argument though. That isn't a case in and of itself.

Well when the difference is 1 or 2 votes "a significant number" isn't really a relevant point to bring up. I can name at least 3 people who weren't going to, which might not seem like "a significant number" but like those are votes that Mipha didn't have access to which could have been 3 more open minded people willing to consider which made a difference between earning a win and never having a shot to begin with.

I'm not saying Mipha should have won, the jury decided it at the end of the day and there were votes she did have access to she didn't get, that's a whole other topic for a day and this is not a discussion about that.

The topic here is, has having a returnee twist in an LSG produced any significant results or anything interesting?

Yes, it's produced jurors and finalists who have lost by 1 vote. The thing has been tested over and over again.

I forgot all about Dark Rey. That's a 4th person who has returned, made FTC and lost by 1 vote which further strengthens my post.

Unless the pattern changes, what's the point of having this twist? There is a mindset that exists out there that people will not vote people to win simply for being a returnee and it was...very eye opening to see it.

Unless people can have a different mindset, I don't see the point in furthering an LSG twist that puts people through heck to survive, come back, and have no proven scenario where it actually produces a winner after however long MS has been going on for.

Like do we keep doing the same thing over and over and expect difference results? That feels pretty insane to me lol.

And again, Live games and meets and marathon games are different because it's proven having a returnee twist actually yields results that make the entire twist worth doing as it does affect results and for whatever reason those "fast" games allow for returnees to actually get back in and have a shot at winning.

I've just yet to see an LSG game with a returnee twist that counters the idea that continuing to plan and design these games with twists where people are going to earn their way back and play the game and beat their head against a wall only to lose produces a result other than the two I listed above.

DN did say it feels good to return and earn it, but ultimately it's pretty frustrating to see people use returnee bias against the returnee simply for playing a game with part of a design that was built into it.

I don't really want to get off topic by nitpicking specific things like "a significant amount" and sure, there exists a world in which a returnee could in theory win, but I have yet to see it play out on MS is the bottom line of what I'm saying.

[Malkon05]

This site can't handle returnees as a concept so they probably shouldn't exist. I've returned to games twice now and both times felt like hitting a brick wall when you come back. Players alive have no respect for this mechanic and normally that's because people feel safe in their own gameplay so there isn't an attempt to use the mechanic to help themselves.

I just don't think players are going to ever take this mechanic seriously so maybe we just let it die. Now doing variations of it with the fittest challenge isn't bad because the player who gets voted out isn't missing out on gameplay. It's akin to being sent to exile.

Bottom line though, in order for this to work, we have to have a majority of players being willing to accept it as a feasible way to win and I don't think we are there.

I'm way out of the loop on recent MS history, but is this actually true? Has a returnee made it to the end and lost because they were a returnee before?

It's a touch more complicated than that, but there are definitely people who have blatantly said "they would never vote for a returnee to win under any circumstance". During PCW there were definitely people who weren't going to give Mipha the time of day on the sole fact that she missed...what 3 rounds of the game and was idoled rather than truly voted out?

Was this a significant number of people? It seemed like the Jurors mostly gave her fair consideration, and she came one vote away from winning.

Mipha and Dark Rey were both very close to winning, and I really just disagree with the idea that MS will never vote for a returnee. They might have a more uphill battle, but they probably should. I do think Jurors want more than just being a returnee and making it to the end as an final argument though. That isn't a case in and of itself.

Well when the difference is 1 or 2 votes "a significant number" isn't really a relevant point to bring up. I can name at least 3 people who weren't going to, which might not seem like "a significant number" but like those are votes that Mipha didn't have access to which could have been 3 more open minded people willing to consider which made a difference between earning a win and never having a shot to begin with.

I'm not saying Mipha should have won, the jury decided it at the end of the day and there were votes she did have access to she didn't get, that's a whole other topic for a day and this is not a discussion about that.

The topic here is, has having a returnee twist in an LSG produced any significant results or anything interesting?

Yes, it's produced jurors and finalists who have lost by 1 vote. The thing has been tested over and over again.

I forgot all about Dark Rey. That's a 4th person who has returned, made FTC and lost by 1 vote which further strengthens my post.

Unless the pattern changes, what's the point of having this twist? There is a mindset that exists out there that people will not vote people to win simply for being a returnee and it was...very eye opening to see it.

Unless people can have a different mindset, I don't see the point in furthering an LSG twist that puts people through heck to survive, come back, and have no proven scenario where it actually produces a winner after however long MS has been going on for.

Like do we keep doing the same thing over and over and expect difference results? That feels pretty insane to me lol.

And again, Live games and meets and marathon games are different because it's proven having a returnee twist actually yields results that make the entire twist worth doing as it does affect results and for whatever reason those "fast" games allow for returnees to actually get back in and have a shot at winning.

I've just yet to see an LSG game with a returnee twist that counters the idea that continuing to plan and design these games with twists where people are going to earn their way back and play the game and beat their head against a wall only to lose produces a result other than the two I listed above.

DN did say it feels good to return and earn it, but ultimately it's pretty frustrating to see people use returnee bias against the returnee simply for playing a game with part of a design that was built into it.

I don't really want to get off topic by nitpicking specific things like "a significant amount" and sure, there exists a world in which a returnee could in theory win, but I have yet to see it play out on MS is the bottom line of what I'm saying.

I think if you're losing by one vote, that's a vote that came down to the whim of one person and it realistically could have gone either way. That to me is not the same thing as saying that returnees never can win. If we played enough games, eventually a returnee would win. They aren't included in every game, and when they are included, they don't usually make it to the end. In fact, Dark Rey and Mipha are the only finalist returnees I can think of, though I may be forgetting some. If they were losing with 0 votes, that'd be different to me and would indicate that most of our Jurors will not vote for returnees under any circumstances.

But not really worth getting into tbh. We're both overall against returnees. I just think you're being a bit reductive, and it kind of seems like you're blaming Jurors for standards they aren't even necessarily applying. And you also used to say that you would absolutely never vote for a returnee to win under any circumstances, and you even criticized me for casting my Jury vote for Kilby in a live game after he was voted out, so the irony here isn't lost on me. Maybe you're projecting a lil bit, idk

Id like to point out I've never been a returnee and I have voted for at least one to win on one of two juries I've had an opportunity to do so, but if you want receipts, I can get them. I was trying to be respectful of people by not.

[Malkon05]

I do recognize I used to be part of the problem, but my stance has changed recently and I have been very vocal in saying so.

I'm not saying people can't change, but it was pretty defeating to try to advocate for returnees and have people shoot me down pretty fucking blatantly to the point that I don't see a point in having a returnee mechanic at all.

Which is probably a reductive attitude to have, and I honestly stated "this is probably jaded Malkon talking" a few posts before this specific conversation.

[Malkon05]

So my understanding of your argument is that:

- the community has a significant portion of people that would outright refuse to vote for a returnee, for the sole reason of them having been eliminated from the game previously
- this attitude is the problem with having returnees in LSGs, as opposed to the implementation of the returnee mechanic, because no matter how a player returns, there will still be some players who refuse to vote for returning players to win
- if returnees were to be implemented (and you seem to like them as twists themselves), then there needs to be a change in the community's attitude towards them, instead of a change in their implementation

Does this sum up your argument against returning players in LSGs, Malkon?

This is actually a pretty good summary of the long ranty thing I did

first point: I would clarify, significant enough. On a strict ratio basis I think there are more people at least willing to entertain the possibility of voting a returnee than not, but with the inherent bias that for their vote a returnee would have to do more to prove they deserve it over people who played the whole time. There are people who would flat out "never vote a returnee" but I wouldn't call it a significant number of people, but significant enough that it does affect games with this mechanic.

second point: correct.

third point: Mostly yes. If there's a way to actually implement returnees into a game in a way people won't have returnee bias, I'm all for it. I just don't know if such a magical solution exists.

Aside from that you summed me up very well <3

[Malkon05]

If we aren't counting survivor meet, the only game I had a returnee mechanic for was PCW:

Oaki was the 3rd boot, Ancient Oven was one of the two 4th boots, both returned at f13 merge (3 rounds on RC for Oaki, 2 rounds for Ancient Oven). Mipha was idoled out during the 7th vote and returned 3 rounds later at the final 9 from RC. All three finalists made the final 9. Oaki was then eliminated officially in 9th, Ancient Oven 7th and Mipha lost FTC 6-5-4 (she was the 5, though one of those votes was an advantage an ally gave her).

RC = Resurrection Chamber which was like RI, but you have lives and can opt to quit at any time like EoE (which 3 people chose to do).