biancospino's Mini Normal Review, March 2023 (Released)
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biancospino he/shecompulsive complex Inventorhe/she
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Hello.
So, the idea here is to have multiple namely strong investigatives that in actuality are each substantially weakened. Both the Jailkeeper and the Watcher may get a (pseudo)guilty on exactly one of the Wolves, only if that particular Wolf kills, and only if the other is still alive, and the TA can potentially get a guilty on both but only if the third one is still alive, and to balance that they can get a strong false inno on that third one. On the whole, in whatever order the Wolves are taken down, the last one can in no way be guilted by mech, and one of them is effectly impossible to guilty by any role in the setup.
Since there is a lot of town power anyway, to counterbalance I added some red herrings in the false Enablers and a couple of identical TPR (ideally something useless, I thought Visitors but maybe Checkers would be better to avoid giving out feel-bad roles?).
The false Enabler are supposed to seem believable to their holders, but to be unbelievable to exist toghether with an actual existing role, so to maximize the possibility that town counterclaims itself. The info on the majority of enablers not being false serves to increase facilitate that.-
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biancospino he/shecompulsive complex Inventorhe/she
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Also hi Dats, I'm actually doing a Mini because you asked but seems like you won't actually be able to play it :/
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biancospino he/shecompulsive complex Inventorhe/she
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What if, I change the Visitors back to Voyeurs (that way they can possibly verify the Watcher; or maybe even full RoleWatchers?), remove the Track from the Traitor, and make the TA a Bulletproof-Enabler instead of Tracker-Enabler so that they be hinted of the existence of a Traitor? Or maybe even straight out informing them that one exist-
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Mhm, I see. Perhaps this would be better just run as a theme? My problem is the Traitor kinda needs to be lazy otherwise there is the nightmare scenario that the Watcher and TA find the two main wolves N1 and N2 and it's autowin for the Village-
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biancospino he/shecompulsive complex Inventorhe/she
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Or, other idea, make the Traitor a lazy compulsive Doctor, and replace the TA with a Gunsmith-
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This would also make the Village much stronger since it could guilty a non-doc wolf even if the other is dead, idk if that isn't too much-
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But idk, I prefer the version with the Traitor frankly. But I understand if that isn't salvageable-
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Mhm, wouldn't removing Unstoppable/Ninja make the Village broken? That way they could potentially easily just nail both of them mechanically by N2-
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Being honest, and that may sound a bit silly, the general concept of W-Enabler Ninja + Jk-Enabler Unstoppabler vs W + JK was really the core idea around which I plotted everything else, so if we remove that I wouldn't feel the setup to be really mine-
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On second thought, I don't like the Commuter here.
(I also thought of making the Village Enableralsoa Seer-Enabler to be extra evil, but in the end maybe not, that would be a tad bastardly)-
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You'll probably going to reject this on the stop but. What if I replaced one VT with a second novice TA? (and maybe simplify the Alien-Enabler thing, the "loyal" made more sense in the og version)In post 20, mastina wrote: I'm a bit tired but first instinct is this is scumsided.
Spoiler:-
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Yes, as long as there is some alternative mechanism to prevent the game being auto'ed by mech alone by N2. TA-Enabler lazy Traitor + TA seemed like a way to assure that which jived well with the rest of the setup, but I would be satisfied with alternative mechanisms, albeit perhaps I wouldn't find them as aestetically pleasing.In post 22, Datisi wrote: bianco, would you be satisfied with a setup whose only enablers are the jailkeeper enabler and the watcher enabler?
To that purpose, the town Enablers can be safely cut, however I do worry that the town PRs may become a self-confirming claim without some manner of confounding factor. If the problem is that an excessive amount of Enablers is too gimmicky, what if the town Enabler was turned into an Informed Alien-Finder Neapolitan-Finder Tracker-Finder (with the info "at least a majority of linked roles are linked to an existing role"), and at this point with multitasking off by default?-
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I will be V/LA till monday, however I will likely be around to check this PT at least once or twice a day.
Also, bump?-
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Hmh, I see. If there is no actual need for red herrings, then yes, I'm fine with dropping them.
WOLVES
1 Werewolf Alien-Enabler disloyal Unstoppable
1 Werewolf Watcher-Ebabler Ninja
1 TA-Enabler Bulletproof Tracker lazy Traitor
VILLAGE
1 Jailkeeper
1 Watcher
2 Informed novice TAs [there is a Traitor]
1 multitasking TA-Finder Tracker-Finder
5 VTs
Or maybe even drop the Finder, it's there mainly to sligthly strengthening town by helping to avoid the issue that if both TAs claim that could result in a mislim chain-
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EBWOPIn post 26, biancospino wrote: Hmh, I see. If there is no actual need for red herrings, then yes, I'm fine with dropping them.
WOLVES
1 Werewolf Jailkeeper-Enabler disloyal Unstoppable
1 Werewolf Watcher-Ebabler Ninja
1 TA-Enabler Bulletproof Tracker lazy Traitor
VILLAGE
1 Jailkeeper
1 Watcher
2 Informed novice TAs [there is a Traitor]
1 multitasking TA-Finder Tracker-Finder
5 VTs
Or maybe even drop the Finder, it's there mainly to sligthly strengthening town by helping to avoid the issue that if both TAs claim that could result in a mislim chain-
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The more I think about it the less I understand why I felt the need to gate the TA(s) with novice...
What if, the TA were ungated and there were a more overtly useful Finder;
WOLVES
1 Werewolf JK-Enabler disloyal Unstoppable
1 Werewolf Watcher-Ebabler Ninja
1 TA-Enabler Bulletproof Tracker lazy Traitor
VILLAGE
1 Jailkeeper
1 Watcher
1 Informed TAs [there is a Traitor]
1 multitasking BP-Finder Informed-Finder
6 VTs
This way the Finder can get a pseudoguilty on the Traitor with the BP check.
Alternatively, what if the TAs were informed of such shenanigan:
WOLVES
1 Werewolf JK-Enabler disloyal Unstoppable
1 Werewolf Watcher-Ebabler Ninja
1 TA-Enabler Bulletproof Tracker lazy Traitor
VILLAGE
1 Jailkeeper
1 Watcher
2 Informed (novice?) TAs [there are two non-Vanilla Village players with the same role (or maybe even there are two Village TAs)]
1 multitasking TA-Finder Tracker-Finder
5 VTs
PUBLIC INFO
There is a Traitor-
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What if I alter the JK to something stronger (this deviates from the og Unstoppable+JK idea, but little enough that I would still like it)
WOLVES
1 Werewolf Alien-Enabler disloyal Unstoppable
1 Werewolf Watcher-Ebabler Ninja
1 TA-Enabler Bulletproof disloyal Rolestopper lazy Traitor
VILLAGE
1 disloyal Alien
1 Watcher
1 Informed TA [there is a Traitor]
1 multitasking BP-Finder Informed-Finder Ninja-Finder
1 Ninja FruitVendor
5 VTs
That way the Alien has a lot of synergies with the other TPRs. The Finder is also stronger.
To counterbalance I've changed the Track to a disloyal Rolestop, which may mess things up a bit, and added something useless to act as a false positive for the Ninja-Finder (thou if that is still too scumsided, what if it was a Ninja Neighborizer instead? I get that it would be mostly the same thing, but maybe it sounds slightly more town-y)-
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Thinking about it, I see that if the Unstoppable gets executed D1 then that would vanificate most of the Village power at once, which is probably unfun. What if I split the Finder's power:
WOLVES
1 Werewolf Alien-Enabler disloyal Unstoppable
1 Werewolf Watcher-Ebabler Ninja
1 TA-Enabler Bulletproof disloyal Rolestopper lazy Traitor
VILLAGE
1 disloyal Alien
1 Watcher
1 Informed TA [there is a Traitor]
1 multitasking BP-Finder Ninja-Finder
1 Ninja multitasking Enabler-Finder Informed-Finder
5 VTs-
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Yeah, I'm not sure why I thought that could be a good idea (thou I was under the impression that an Unstoppable would pierce a disloyal Alien's block).
WOLVES
1 Werewolf Jailkeeper-Enabler disloyal Unstoppable
1 Werewolf Watcher-Enabler Ninja
1 TA-Enabler Bulletproof Tracker lazy Traitor
VILLAGE
1 Jailkeeper
1 Watcher
1 Informed TA [there is a Traitor]
1 multitasking BP-Finder Finder-Finder
1 multitasking Enabler-Finder Informed-Finder
5 VTs
(Incidentally, I'm using stuff like Enabler-Finder and I'm not really sure that's it is actually normal since Enabler is not actually a role on its own)-
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biancospino he/shecompulsive complex Inventorhe/she
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Uhm, I can see that being a problem; though tbh I would more fine with the Village temporaneally assuming assuming wrongly about the setup composition than them ending up with a slot they believe to be 100% guilty on mech who isn't -- if anything because I worry they would feel more cheated in the second scenario. I don't want players to think I'm just screwing with them.In post 37, Datisi wrote: one thing that i am kind of worried about
"lazy traitor" is a role that hasn't ever been used (iirc). i don't think even the most normals-savvy players are gonna think of the possibility of that role existing.
so, in the event that two main scum flip, and the game is not yet over, AND the TA outs the info that there is a traitor in the game - i fear people might start thinking they're dealing with a 4-person scumteam. and sure, that is gonna get disproved once they get to final 3, but i feel like it would wreak havoc on the game in the meantime.
so i would potentially make it public information that there are 3 players aligned with the mafia.
though that brings its own problems, maybe they'd think the TA is lying if two main scum flip and they claim there's a traitor and the game doesn't end...
What if I give the TA two separate informations:
* There is Traitor
* There is a player aligned with the Wolves with the lazy modifier
That way they may not be completely blindsighted.
What if all the Finders were one-shot?In post 38, Datisi wrote: enabler-finder feels like it might become a cop if scum starts flipping and there's a good mech player in town who can deduce the roles of the other scum-
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Or, sequester the more useful Finder abilities into a JoaT, so to gate the Enabler one in particularIn post 39, biancospino wrote: What if all the Finders were one-shot?
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The Enabler-Finder is likely the stronger, so it does need some gating probably. What if I make one multitasking and the other odd/even.
(And, thinking about it, giving some sort of hint to the TA is probably a good idea)
WOLVES
1 Werewolf Jailkeeper-Enabler disloyal Unstoppable
1 Werewolf Watcher-Enabler Ninja
1 TA-Enabler Bulletproof Tracker lazy Traitor
VILLAGE
1 Jailkeeper
1 Watcher
1 Informed TA- There is a Traitor.
- There is a player with the lazy modifier.
1 even-nights Enabler-Finder odd-nights Informed-Finder
5 VTs-
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@Implo, can furtiveglance be added to this PT? He's my backup-mod-
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They would know they have a Traitor, at least I think that must be per normal guidelines; but not who they are.In post 46, furtiveglance wrote: Also, would the Wolves be informed of the Traitor or who it is?
The Traitor is actually supposed tohelpscum in the setup, as they're essentially a TA-godfather and they become a full-fledged wolf instead of being endgamed if they are last wolf standing, and 3 of the TPRs are hard-countered by stuff the wolf team has, but I can see the wolves not knowing that and perhaps feeling a bit cheated. I guess one can solve that by removing the dupliced Finders and giving the village something else instead, but then my worry is that if that PR dies early the rest of the setup is quite heavily wolfleaning-
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Mhm, I may see the problem. What if instead I make the BP-Finder significantly less useful by making it a Tracker-Finder instead?
WOLVES
1 Werewolf Jailkeeper-Enabler disloyal Unstoppable
1 Werewolf Watcher-Enabler Ninja
1 TA-Enabler Bulletproof Tracker lazy Traitor
VILLAGE
1 Jailkeeper
1 Watcher
1 Informed TA- There is a Traitor.
- There is a player with the lazy modifier.
1 even-nights Enabler-Finder odd-nights Informed-Finder
5 VTs-
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Bumping this.
After some thoughts, I do actually like this version (Tracker-Finder instead of BP-Finder) slightly more, though I'm still entirely fine with the BP version if this happens to be an overcorrection.In post 52, biancospino wrote: Mhm, I may see the problem. What if instead I make the BP-Finder significantly less useful by making it a Tracker-Finder instead?
WOLVES
1 Werewolf Jailkeeper-Enabler disloyal Unstoppable
1 Werewolf Watcher-Enabler Ninja
1 TA-Enabler Bulletproof Tracker lazy Traitor
VILLAGE
1 Jailkeeper
1 Watcher
1 Informed TA- There is a Traitor.
- There is a player with the lazy modifier.
1 even-nights Enabler-Finder odd-nights Informed-Finder
5 VTs
And as we're here, I also have role PMs ready
Spoiler: Role PMs
Spoiler: Result PMs
I do have a question on the lazy Traitor wording. I have worded it as
However I do worry that this wording would pretty much confirm to the Traitor that there are no lazy-Enablers (nor any third party or more than one Traitor, but that would follow for the guidelines anyway so that's less of a concern). To solve this, I've come up with a more verbose wording, but then I worry this may be confusing:when no non-Traitor member of your faction is alive you gain access to the Wolves' factional PT and to the Wolves' factional nightkill.when no non-Traitor member of your faction is alive, you are endgamed; however, since you're lazy, if there are less than two player alive not aligned with the Village when that would happen, instead you gain access to the Wolves' factional PT and to the Wolves' factional nightkill.-
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biancospino he/shecompulsive complex Inventorhe/she
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I mean, I can't really, since the lazy Traitor would be endgamed if all non-Traitors wolves are dead but there are still another Traitor alive. But in a scumteam of three there may not be two Traitors anyway, so that's (probably?) not really a problem -- btw, a Traitor should know the identities of the entire scumteam,In post 55, Datisi wrote: as for ruling out a second traitor, you can just change it into something like "when all scum but you are dead".including potential additional Traitors, correct?-
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Is the concern here just the townIn post 54, furtiveglance wrote: I think town will win and mafia might grumblehavingmany PRs regardless of what they actually are, lest they may gain an advantage in massclaim?-
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Ah, if they are not informed of who the other Traitor is then I would have to state both conditions (if there are no non-Traitors, you are endgamed; unless you are the last wolf, in which case you become a full wolf yada yada). And I should also reword the information they get about alignments.In post 59, Datisi wrote:
yes, you can? the fact that they'd get endgamed at 2 traitors alive doesn't mean you can't use "if you're the last member of the mafia alive, you become a full mafia member". that sentence simply explains what happens if they are the last scum standing, but it does NOT say it's possible for that scenario to occur.In post 57, biancospino wrote:
I mean, I can't really, since the lazy Traitor would be endgamed if all non-Traitors wolves are dead but there are still another Traitor alive. But in a scumteam of three there may not be two Traitors anyway, so that's (probably?) not really a problem -- btw, a Traitor should know the identities of the entire scumteam,In post 55, Datisi wrote: as for ruling out a second traitor, you can just change it into something like "when all scum but you are dead".including potential additional Traitors, correct?
i'm pretty sure there cannot be 2 traitors in a team of 3. and no, if there's 2 traitors, they're not aware who the other traitor is. source: played a normal once where i was scum and we had two traitors, and they both thought this random townie was the other traitor. very fun.
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Wait, does a Traitor knowIn post 59, Datisi wrote: i'm pretty sure there cannot be 2 traitors in a team of 3. and no, if there's 2 traitors, they're not aware who the other traitor is. source: played a normal once where i was scum and we had two traitors, and they both thought this random townie was the other traitor.ifthere exists another Traitor?
If the answer is yes then the point is moot and I may cut the verbiage-
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(Oh, and also the phrase "or by posting the same in the Wolves' PT should of course be removed from the Traitor PM's /confirm line)
Spoiler:-
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biancospino he/shecompulsive complex Inventorhe/she
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So, uh, is this passed?
Anyway, here's the rulepost which I've just realized I've never remebered to post (the backup-mod color is a placeholder. @furtive, feel free to chooce whichever color you like as long as it isn't a shade of purple)
Spoiler: rules-
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:(
Hope you fell better. Happy scumday btw-
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biancospino he/shecompulsive complex Inventorhe/she
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Bumping since CSF's mini is filling up-
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biancospino he/shecompulsive complex Inventorhe/she
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Oh, yes, the public info is no more accurate at all. I was just assuming we just blanked that section entirely-
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biancospino he/shecompulsive complex Inventorhe/she
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Corrected PMS:
Spoiler: Role PMs
Spoiler: Result PMs
I have daytalk on and multitasking off by default in the rules.
One thing; should a complex tag be used?-
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... that info would actually still be true, uh. In all cases, the Enabler gimmick is much less marked now, so still I don't think it needs to be given.In post 75, biancospino wrote: Oh, yes, the public info is no more accurate at all. I was just assuming we just blanked that section entirely-
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biancospino he/shecompulsive complex Inventorhe/she
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Then, provided Mastina approves of it, I'll use it-
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In post 76, biancospino wrote: One thing; should a complex tag be used?In post 78, Datisi wrote: i would prefer if a complex tag were used, yes
@mastina?In post 79, biancospino wrote: Then, provided Mastina approves of it, I'll use it-
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Sorry to hear, hope you're all better nowIn post 81, mastina wrote: Been sick for the last ten days, am normally much faster. Sorry for the delay.-
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- Posts: 2338
- Joined: October 18, 2022
- Pronoun: he/she
- Location: UTC+1
idk if I can announce it myself in the queue, so I've PM'd implo to that effectIn post 82, mastina wrote:
It would be for the better, yes.In post 79, biancospino wrote:Then, provided Mastina approves of it, I'll use it-
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biancospino he/shecompulsive complex Inventorhe/she
- compulsive complex Inventor
- compulsive complex Inventor
- Posts: 2338
- Joined: October 18, 2022
- Pronoun: he/she
- Location: UTC+1
Wait nvm, I saw that Enchant did announce it as his last normal entered signups, so that's probably fine-
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biancospino he/shecompulsive complex Inventorhe/she
- compulsive complex Inventor
- compulsive complex Inventor
- Posts: 2338
- Joined: October 18, 2022
- Pronoun: he/she
- Location: UTC+1
Role and result PMs
Spoiler: Role PMs
Spoiler: Result PMs-
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biancospino he/shecompulsive complex Inventorhe/she
- compulsive complex Inventor
- compulsive complex Inventor
- Posts: 2338
- Joined: October 18, 2022
- Pronoun: he/she
- Location: UTC+1
Sorry, meant to post this in the gamethraed
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