TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless

[lilith2013]

first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lilith2013]

Why didn't you play in the other game then?

[lilith2013]

super, fyi this site has been trying to move away from the word "lynch." It's not a bannable offense for players, but more of like a culture thing.

[lilith2013]

oh, did you get relegated here by the blacklists? is this the outcast game?

[lilith2013]

Intensity and aggression for why I like you.

Post 7 for the townread, especially the part about DkKoba.

For a self-branded scum tryhard, immediate antagonization of a player you're familiar with seems like an unusual strategy for scum. Or am I mistaken?

really? I kind of leaned the other way. I mean, that's the strategy that I've used myself when I have to fool people who know me.

[lilith2013]

that means nothing

[lilith2013]

re: activity, I am indeed very busy with work but when I'm around I'm pretty spammy. audit season (:

[lilith2013]

Feel like scum are more likely to notice that the setup is nightless

Koba, explain the vote

how does that make a "townslip" more likely to come from town? scum could just.... fake it

[lilith2013]

er... no, I'm saying you can't (or maybe shouldn't) argue for something being a townslip or scumslip

[lilith2013]

thats good.

did u know black flag is a bad setup?

themoreyouknow

you've been saying it repeatedly. I'm not sure I "know" that black flag is a bad setup. What constitutes "knowing"? Can we ever truly "know" something?

[lilith2013]

If you find something that scum is unlikely to think to fake, then it's towny

Or if they do analysis based on the mech mistake that seems very genuine

Etc

I'm pretty sure scum fake setup slips plenty

[lilith2013]

really? I kind of leaned the other way. I mean, that's the strategy that I've used myself when I have to fool people who know me.

I'm sure that every behaviour you can think of has been attempted by scum in the past. I think that it's unusual on average.

Also consider that that wasn't a simple playful push, it was an early discredit using out-of-game information.

So do you scumread Super, then?

Not really?

[lilith2013]

infinity are you trying to pocket me already

[lilith2013]

Auro, what would be your approach to playing scum when you’ve rolled against people who know you well?

pedit: my reaction was “eh.” I don’t have much of an impression yet, for me this conversation is more about you than it is about her

[lilith2013]

Do you think infinity and SS have similar approaches to mafia..?

[lilith2013]

Or like

Are they readable in similar ways?

Otherwise, while fascinating, I’m not really sure how this helps

[lilith2013]

Okay

pedit: SS is me

[lilith2013]

yeah i think as long as you don't talk about other games in this thread you can do that

[lilith2013]

Auro, what would be your approach to playing scum when you’ve rolled against people who know you well?

Townblocking them and making them paranoid of me

Seriously though, if I was scum I'd be worried about people who don't know me well and would probably tailor my game to them.
Knowing me well doesn't mean reading me well

Uh... I assumed knowing well == being able to read well in this context

[lilith2013]

happy birthday super!

[lilith2013]

Don't have much experience playing with people who can read me well :3

can you humor me and answer in the hypothetical then?

this is like pulling teeth for no reason

[lilith2013]

@auro

like if you are scum and are enjoying this back and forth and the deflecting and all of that, ok keep doing your thing

if you're town then surely you can just answer my question/engage with me in a straightforward way, which didn't necessitate you to have played with people who can read you well because it was already a "how would you do this thing" hypothetical and not me asking what you've done in the past. and I will enjoy this game a lot more and you will probably also enjoy this game more without me shoving questions down your throat unless you're into the extended argument thing, and then we will all be closer to correctly townreading townies and scumreading scumbutts etc etc. isn't that what you want?

[lilith2013]

@Lilith: Um, I'd probably try to figure out what specific elements of my play allow them to read me easily, and then emulate the same? Maybe change my style to introduce some unfamiliarity. Kill them off early before they realize.

Once we're done, please do explain the rationale behind this line of questioning.

generally: the plan is that there is no plan. I just see posts that I want to talk about and then I ask about them and I keep doing that until I find something that makes me go :thinking face: and then I ask more questions about that. rinse and repeat.

specifically: you took a stance that super was towny because she did something that you think would be an unusual strategy for scum. I'm trying to figure out why you think it's an unusual strategy for scum, because I don't agree.

[lilith2013]

o............kay

[lilith2013]

boop

pedit: goddammit the pagetop

[lilith2013]

not me asking what you've done in the past

My response also had the implication that it was a novel hypothetical and thus would have me think about it as opposed to having a ready answer, and I'm surprised you didn't read it that way.

I don't mind the mention of it being novel, but what was preventing you from just... including your hypothetical answer too

[lilith2013]

specifically: you took a stance that super was towny because she did something that you think would be an unusual strategy for scum. I'm trying to figure out why you think it's an unusual strategy for scum, because I don't agree.

My thinking of whether something is an unusual strategy as scum is independent from whether I personally would adopt it

they're related in my head

why do you think it's unusual then?

[lilith2013]

side note: as expected, we are outpacing the post rate of all other TM games

[lilith2013]

uh.. super, is it bringing you to the draft screen again or back to the game thread?

[lilith2013]

hello peta

I feel obligated to point out that I have spammy scumgames too

[lilith2013]

I don't mind the mention of it being novel, but what was preventing you from just... including your hypothetical answer too

At the time, I assumed that given it was a novel hypothetical and also one that wouldn't apply to this game anyway that it was generally unhelpful.

Well, consider this a heads up that I ask about a lot of random things but I promise they’re all related to something/make sense in my head/help me sort. So I’d appreciate if you’d humor me regardless of how useful or unuseful you think it is

[lilith2013]

you can’t eat vibes!

[lilith2013]

embarrassingly, that’s something my friends used to say and I assumed it was a well-known meme or something. turns out that’s not the case.........

[lilith2013]

Obviously it depends on the person, but my approach in the past has been “if I don’t think I can fake a decent read progression and get them to townread me on that basis, then go aggro”

[lilith2013]

on one hand, I feel left out; on the other, not really townreading enough to think that hypothetical bloc is all town

[lilith2013]

lol auro I just reread your initial reply to me and you did actually answer. then I got all up in arms about you not answering. sorry

[lilith2013]

can we revisit why you think super's opening post would be an unusual strategy for scum?

[lilith2013]

infinity what’s your opinion on koba?

[lilith2013]

meh

[lilith2013]

chennis isn’t townreading super so not sure why you are trying to argue with him that he shouldn’t townread her

[lilith2013]

koba do you have specific reasons to think super is scum? otherwise this point seems like beating a dead horse

[lilith2013]

see above

[lilith2013]

super do you need a hug

[lilith2013]

damn we gave tbone an accidental pagetop. ragrets

[lilith2013]

koba do you have specific reasons to think super is scum? otherwise this point seems like beating a dead horse

[lilith2013]

have not had time to sit down and write replies/thoughts since last night, planning to do that tomorrow

[lilith2013]

re: activity, I am indeed very busy with work but when I'm around I'm pretty spammy. audit season (:

as I have

already

mentioned, I’m very busy with work and I’m

working this weekend

. I’ve promised to try to get to doing stuff today and I’m trying my best to make that happen. until I actually have a chance to sit down and think about things I just frankly do not have the mental capacity to do anything

[lilith2013]

realized I forgot to to give super a hug emoji but now I’m feeling pissy about her changing her read on me when I feel like I’ve done the same amount as fire and she has fire as solid town where I’m null for whatever reason so you know what no hug 4 u

[lilith2013]

@flopz

I’ve promised to try to get to doing stuff today and I’m trying my best to make that happen.

@fire I know and I have a new client this year on top of my usual ones and the new client is a goddamn garbage fire (: (: (:

[lilith2013]

oh, relevant!!! SS kind of agreed that infinity’s entrance feels similar to how he (SS) would approach a game as scum but doesn’t thjnk he and infinity are similar enough, at least early game, for that to be scum-indicative

[lilith2013]

good news, I am down to the last item on my to-do list for today! bad news, it's a big boi.

[lilith2013]

@auro my only set of questions was predicated on me misreading your post and led to me thinking you were intentionally trying to deflect from answering my question which wasn’t even like a particularly strong/pressing issue for me until I thought you were deflecting. As soon as I realized I was wrong, I dropped it. This is the only line of questioning I’ve pursued so far this game because I have not been able to participate fully since then.

conveniently I am now garnering a bunch of “null/scum” reads as soon as my activity dropped. effort /= alignment!!! activity /= alignment!!! in a vacuum, super reevaluating me when she didn’t really need to seems towny, but it happened right as I was becoming less vocal in thread, thereby making me an easier miselim target than I initially would have seemed when I was active on friday. super was originally townreading me because my posts read as genuine and is townreading firebringer off tone as well, yet she only reevaluated her read on me while keeping her townread on fb - the primary difference I see between our two slots being that firebringer was around to hang out in thread and therefore push back on people pushing him. I don’t know if I’m scumreading her for it but it seems awfully convenient that she and infinity and auro have very similar reads on me for very similar reasons. Maybe that points to scum in auro/infinity instead though.

[lilith2013]

I’m still working so I can’t do full sitdown/readthrough/post walls. Tomorrow.

[lilith2013]

This is the only line of questioning I’ve pursued so far this game because I have not been able to participate fully since then.

[lilith2013]

i was told ur a major lurksack as scum by teammates and theres also ~reasons~

do u have any opinion on at least a skim of anything? just like a little flash read helps sort u

I’m a major lurksack when I’m working until 2am most nights and weekends and my eyes hurt so much that I physically can’t look at a screen without tearing up

I coincidentally happened to roll scum like 6 times in a row after I became really busy at work

I skimmed like 20 pages that happened between Friday night and Saturday night and the one thing I retained was that I didn’t like flopz’ (and whoever he was talking to) foray into what seemed like irrelevant meta discussions. I don’t even remember if it was flopz or what was being discussed, I just remember disliking it because it didn’t seem like it was helping anyone on either side sort the other and so felt unnecessary. I think maybe the wagons being so evenly split is a sign that scum didn’t really care where the wagon was at that time, so potentially all wagons on town.

[lilith2013]

also I forgot to add that super reversed her read on me after I didn’t townread her back so that was another reason I thought she might have been trying to open up a door to miselimming me

[lilith2013]

the way you're so upset about me lessening a tr on you just makes me think you're probably town cos of holding onto it so deeply lol

I’ve been steaming about it all day. great fuel for mashing keys on excel tbh

[lilith2013]

i was told ur a major lurksack as scum by teammates and theres also ~reasons~

do u have any opinion on at least a skim of anything? just like a little flash read helps sort u

I’m a major lurksack when I’m working until 2am most nights and weekends and my eyes hurt so much that I physically can’t look at a screen without tearing up

I coincidentally happened to roll scum like 6 times in a row after I became really busy at work

I skimmed like 20 pages that happened between Friday night and Saturday night and the one thing I retained was that I didn’t like flopz’ (and whoever he was talking to) foray into what seemed like irrelevant meta discussions. I don’t even remember if it was flopz or what was being discussed, I just remember disliking it because it didn’t seem like it was helping anyone on either side sort the other and so felt unnecessary. I think maybe the wagons being so evenly split is a sign that scum didn’t really care where the wagon was at that time, so potentially all wagons on town.

so what would u say is the difference between ur scum and ur town play?

I’ll answer this tomorrow. I do actually have to finish my work now and I think I tend to get overly philosophical and it’s gonna be a long-winded answer

[lilith2013]

i was told ur a major lurksack as scum by teammates and theres also ~reasons~

also what do you mean by "~reasons"? what kind of reasons

[lilith2013]

the way you're so upset about me lessening a tr on you just makes me think you're probably town cos of holding onto it so deeply lol

I’ve been steaming about it all day. great fuel for mashing keys on excel tbh

did it actually bother u that much?

I mean I'm not like personally upset but I did say:

now I’m feeling pissy

[lilith2013]

Lilith, would you mind leaving a vote on Ampharos?

why?

[lilith2013]

Wagons make the game progress better, and let's begin to fish out the lurkerz

why amy in particular?

[lilith2013]

not prepared to vote until I have reads, sorry

[lilith2013]

its nearly post 1000 and u dont have a signle person who has pinged u as scummy that u wanna pursue better?

I don't feel comfortable voting until I'm up to date on reads and gamestate. don't really care what you think and I'm not going to make up bullshit reads to make myself look townier and I'm also not going to vote someone without a specific reason.

not prepared to vote until I have reads, sorry

Why are votes for pressure a bad thing? So you would've said this regardless of who I would ask to vote for?

I was always going to answer no, but wanted to see what your reason would be.

What is pressure voting amy going to do while she's not in the thread? Do you think it'll suddenly make her appear?

[lilith2013]

?? okay, I mean the reason can be as stupid as "I felt like it," but I'll humor you:

Subject: Micro 939 - Zoey's Extraordinary Mafia - Game over

(2) MariaR -lilith, Knightmare

Currently thinking scum is in {knightmare, cakes, ceejay}

Why keep your vote on maria then?

I haven’t found a person I want to vote seriously yet

[lilith2013]

the reason can be as stupid as "I felt like it,"

[lilith2013]

not sure where you're trying to go with this. do you think I'm lying about not wanting to vote unless I have a reason that makes me want to vote?

[lilith2013]

I just don’t like voting someone unless I personally want to vote them. I’m a contrarian. As soon as someone asks or tells me to do something, my whole body screams NO even if the thing requested is perfectly reasomable, benefits me personally, or even was a thing I wanted to do on my own prior to being asked

pedit: both of you asking me to vote makes me want to not vote even more

[lilith2013]

okay and you think me being stubborn is scum-indicative because?

[lilith2013]

because I haven’t read so I don’t have any fucking stances???? According to your logic, I’d be townier if I made up bullshit reads. wtf is this reasoning? Do you not think that as scum I’d be faking reads and pushing someone by this point????

[lilith2013]

on that note, good NIGHT.

[lilith2013]

I have a secret about Lilith: I've seen her pick petty fights as scum multiple times IIRC

Please explain how this is relevant here:
- I’m not the one picking a fight, both you and koba are pressuring me. I literally just responded to it. Koba’s words imply that they think it would be townier of me to make up fake reads than to be honest about where I am in the game. How would you respond to that?
- I also don’t think my responses have been “petty,” and if anything I’ve been stopping myself from having a more emotional reaction in thread.
- looks like you’re just bringing this up to try to discredit me without addressing anything I actually said. like you’re trying to be like “oh this doesn’t actually mean lilith is town” for no reason other than to cast doubt on me because, again, I don’t think this is relevant to the situation at hand.

I’ll be the first to admit I’m happy to pick fights as scum but that doesn’t even come close to what happened so it seems like you’re just trying to stir up shit.

[lilith2013]

koba your reasoning on me makes zero sense. Do you really believe that if I were scum, I would deliberately not have any reads and wouldn’t have just made up some reads when you asked me? I’ve been very clear about not being able to put in the mental energy to do a full read-through - do you not believe me?

[lilith2013]

okay and if you just waited I would get around to doing what I said I would

[lilith2013]

Kind of scumreading auro now, his main contributions yesterday were 1) trying to push a wagon on a person who isn’t around while having expressed scumleans on 3 people who were in thread that he could have pushed or engaged with instead; and 2) questioning me on not wanting to vote a person I wasn’t scumreading. And I don’t feel good about most of his engagement with me being providing snips about my scum meta without adequately describing how that results in a scumlean on me

[lilith2013]

Hi Johnny and congrats!

[lilith2013]

I’m about to do a reread so I could summarize afterwards if that would still help

[lilith2013]

In the last 50 pages there have been pretty much 0 scumreads people would be uncomfortable expressing, except Koba on Super

what does this mean

[lilith2013]

okay, what conclusion are you drawing from that? Are there specific people who you think are trying to be “safe” with their reads?

[lilith2013]

personally I find it fishy that amy just happens to pop up right before the 48 hour mark from her last post

[lilith2013]

What significance do you think it has then/why call it out? What about it is concerning or what are you concerned about?

[lilith2013]

well I'm starting my reread now - hopefully that will generate some good stuff.

[lilith2013]

I didn’t select to be in this game lol.

what alignment do you like being the most? :3

Scum how about u

town.

would you be happier if you flipped scum?

@super where did you think this line of questioning was going? did you think fire's answer would be AI, and if so, how?

[lilith2013]

scumslipped

was this serious? if so, why/where do you think super scumslipped?

[lilith2013]

once again, don't really care what you want

[lilith2013]

if i was scum id just lurk out till then instead of laying my traps

Something i have seen i dont like but keeping it to myself rn

what "traps" did you lay? afterwards you said it was infinity's post that you didn't like, but... you didn't make any allusion to his posts so how exactly were you "trapping"?

[lilith2013]

let me get this straight

you feel frustrated when I don't have any stances

when I go to read so that I have actual thoughts on the game, you think I'm fluffing my postcount

are you reading your posts?

[lilith2013]

legitimately I don't think anything I do would satisfy whatever you want, you're so set on trying to discredit me or doubtcast me or whatever this is that you've implied you would rather I make up reads than be honest about not having read the game and that you would rather I shut up and not post after you said you are scumreading me for not having reads

pedit: seeing as I'm missing most of the game anyway, I'm just going to read the whole thing.

[lilith2013]

see I used to do that and then people complained at me for it being too difficult to try to parse a long post

[lilith2013]

ok

[lilith2013]

you still haven't answered how that was me picking a fight. I didn't start anything. I said I didn't want to vote anyone and then both of you started pressuring me so I responded.

[lilith2013]

I disagree that a pressure wagon on someone who was not in thread would give more valuable information than pressuring someone who was in thread who you were suspicious of

[lilith2013]

and I would have expected more engagement from you regarding your three scumleans, regardless of where your vote was

[lilith2013]

you still haven't answered how that was me picking a fight. I didn't start anything. I said I didn't want to vote anyone and then both of you started pressuring me so I responded.

I didn't argue that you

picked

a fight, I'm saying you were being petty.

then why say this?

I have a secret about Lilith: I've seen her

pick

petty fights as scum multiple times IIRC

because this sure makes it seem like you think I

picked

a petty fight in this game.

I disagree that a pressure wagon on someone who was not in thread would give more valuable information than pressuring someone who was in thread who you were suspicious of

So you disagree that their scum partners would have a useful reaction in thread to see their lurker teammate threatened?
Does pressure always require a vote when someone's active?

no, and that's my point #1, that you didn't engage with your other scumleans! except to question me about not wanting to join a pressure wagon which I think is kind of a ridiculous point unless you can somehow explain why you think that's scum-indicative

[lilith2013]

what reaction are you expecting scum partners to have from a pressure wagon on a basically empty slot?

[lilith2013]

I really can't wrap my head around this. What is my vote going to do when you've explicitly announced that you want a pressure wagon on amy and I have explicitly stated I'm not scumreading her? I don't understand what you think is going to come of that that would be AI for like, anyone, or give associatives that would be useful

[lilith2013]

*grumble grumble*

meta

*grumble grumble*

[lilith2013]

sigh. I wouldn't have mentioned what you're referring to as me being petty at all if it weren't for you questioning why I didn't want to vote. If it were up to me, I would have said "sorry not voting amy" and you would have been like "ok" and that would have been the end of it. I am not

trying

to be in a petty fight.

[lilith2013]

like I'm just a petty fucking person okay

[lilith2013]

Before I answer this: I want to hear if you believe there's no useful potential reaction from scum partners off a pressure wagon on an empty slot.

see this post:

I really can't wrap my head around this. What is my vote going to do when you've explicitly announced that you want a pressure wagon on amy and I have explicitly stated I'm not scumreading her? I don't understand what you think is going to come of that that would be AI for like, anyone, or give associatives that would be useful

more explicitly, it's not going to be useful for me. Like either there isn't going to be a useful reaction or I'm not going to be able to parse whatever the reaction is anyway so like, I don't really see the point.

[lilith2013]

sigh. I wouldn't have mentioned what you're referring to as me being petty at all if it weren't for you questioning why I didn't want to vote. If it were up to me, I would have said "sorry not voting amy" and you would have been like "ok" and that would have been the end of it. I am not

trying

to be in a petty fight.

I meaaaaann everyone's complaining about the lack of scumreads and everyone's votes are split off and I expected

you

would understand the value of forming wagons in a game such as Black Flag [where losing a single scum could be detrimental to scum and would hence gather reactions].

I'm not sure what this means/why the emphasis? I am very very vocally not a mechanically or strategically strong player

like I'm just a petty fucking person okay

(Little secret: I actually like that, it makes our mafia games more exciting) but c'mon, you do use this to pretty good advantage when scum [/quote]
I don't disagree but I'm legitimately trying to

not

be in a petty fight and I feel like I tried to explain where I'm coming from re: the pressure wagon stuff beyond just being like "no YOU're bad"

[lilith2013]

sigh. I wouldn't have mentioned what you're referring to as me being petty at all if it weren't for you questioning why I didn't want to vote. If it were up to me, I would have said "sorry not voting amy" and you would have been like "ok" and that would have been the end of it. I am not

trying

to be in a petty fight.

I meaaaaann everyone's complaining about the lack of scumreads and everyone's votes are split off and I expected

you

would understand the value of forming wagons in a game such as Black Flag [where losing a single scum could be detrimental to scum and would hence gather reactions].

I'm not sure what this means/why the emphasis? I am very very vocally not a mechanically or strategically strong player

like I'm just a petty fucking person okay

(Little secret: I actually like that, it makes our mafia games more exciting) but c'mon, you do use this to pretty good advantage when scum

I don't disagree but I'm legitimately trying to

not

be in a petty fight and I feel like I tried to explain where I'm coming from re: the pressure wagon stuff beyond just being like "no YOU're bad"

fixed quotes

[lilith2013]

if you could like, ELI5 the wagon thing that would probably help get through to me on where you're coming from re: wagons

you seem to be under the (extremely mistaken) impression that I understand mafia strategy

[lilith2013]

Lilith, outside of {Chennis/AL/Auro} who would you say is your strongest scumread (note that I am not implying you consider any of the {} a scumread, I'm just removing the two popular scumreads and me who you've stated a scumread on), and how comfortable would you be voting them (considering I'd never asked this question)?

if you could like, ELI5 the wagon thing that would probably help get through to me on where you're coming from re: wagons

you seem to be under the (extremely mistaken) impression that I understand mafia strategy

Sure so the premise is that in Flag setups, two mafia gone -> town wins, so Maf are gonna be pretty careful about not losing one of their own unless they're intentionally bussing. When votes are split and people are just talking back and forth, that's a very convenient spot for scum who can simply participate in discourse without any real threats, and also begin to control narratives together. Constant wagoning and getting people close to elimination sorta "raises the stakes" if you get what I mean, and forces scum out of their comfort zones: for example, if you and I were scum I might happily keep you at a distance and shade you here and there, but if there was a sudden wagon on one of us we'd be wary of participating in it and leading to our elim - and therefore the wagon can bring about a forced change in our positions.

The net benefit is more readable positions. I appreciate that you're trying to see my viewpoint about this instead of escalating.

counterpoint: I did read some of the wiki page on this setup back when the TM setups were first announced, and I thought one of the more popular/successful gambits in Black Flag was bussing because scum are specifically disincentivized to bus and so most people, when looking for associatives, will assume that scum are not bussing

thereby making bussing a viable strategy

I see what you mean though, that unexpected wagons would force either unplanned bussing or awkward positioning around trying to stay off the wagon, but personally I don't have a lot of confidence in my ability to distinguish meaning from wagon positioning, so it seems not very useful to me (as in me, specifically).

[lilith2013]

Lilith, outside of {Chennis/AL/Auro} who would you say is your strongest scumread (note that I am not implying you consider any of the {} a scumread, I'm just removing the two popular scumreads and me who you've stated a scumread on), and how comfortable would you be voting them (considering I'd never asked this question)?

Can I finish reading first?

[lilith2013]

re:1312 okay I think that's fair

when you brought up me picking petty fights, were you trying to imply that you saw my posts as scummy?

pedit: made it to page 10 and then had to do work stuff and I resumed around the time you first posted

[lilith2013]

when you brought up me picking petty fights, were you trying to imply that you saw my posts as scummy?

No I was discrediting that your stubbornness re: petty things (fwiw I also view your complaints about Fire being tr for less content also a little petty) is towny for you. I think the pettiness itself is NAI

both the way you said it and the timing of that post seemed to me that you weren't trying to say "this is NAI" directly but like, hoping to discredit me (as opposed to discrediting specific reads on me), and I had a similar feeling about your other comment about my play this game (lines of questioning thing). I'll agree me being pissy/petty/etc is NAI. I think I do have somewhat of a legitimate gripe with super for reevaluating a tonal read on me apropos of nothing but not doing the same for fb.

[lilith2013]

It wasn’t a stated factor but it was like, very

conveniently

timed fmpov

[lilith2013]

@koba do you think we should be townreading super?

[lilith2013]

in the middle of typing up a several thousand word post (:

[lilith2013]

oh I wasn't even really sure what you were referring to, but I am writing a response to your original post now

[lilith2013]

There's something specific I'm looking forward to from you Lilith, let's see if you do it

well now I want to know what it is

[lilith2013]

MENA!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lilith2013]

Wrong game

viewtopic.php?p=12527884#p12527884

I'm home, where's your post Lilly!!!!!

I'm still on page 30, I'm trying to be really thorough since I wasn't able to put much thought into those posts before (◕‸ ◕✿)

[lilith2013]

viewtopic.php?p=12527884#p12527884

[lilith2013]

also the lighthearted reaction to being told theyre about to be hammered i liked, im biased :3

[lilith2013]

okay it's finally fucking here. I feel like I've spent the last 6 hours of my life glued to this computer and I'm exhausted but it's here. I did, like, skim the last 10ish pages because I was mostly here for those but LET'S GO

[lilith2013]

preface: I really am not vibing with this format. I want to go in order but I also want to be able to clearly label what is what and what each person is supposed to respond to and what is for the whole thread to read and this is not happening the way I want it to. hopefully this will be the only time I have to do this and I can just spampost the rest of the time. "@" sections = directed to the named person. "thoughts re:" sections = not directed to them specifically, just thoughts from me.

also this "catch-up post" ended up being HELLA long so I'm going to break it up (but keep the posts spoilered). apologies for the consecutive posts.

[lilith2013]

super gets her own post because it's the longest by far:

Spoiler: @super

I didn’t select to be in this game lol.

what alignment do you like being the most? :3

Scum how about u

town.

would you be happier if you flipped scum?

@super where did you think this line of questioning was going? did you think fire's answer would be AI, and if so, how?

well they said they would prefer to be scum so I was curious if they flipped scum maybe they'd enter the game more cheerful - it was early on so in a sense it was me creating content but also trying to get a read on FB based on their entrance and their negativity towards black flag

peta told me it was NAI though cos they were complaining about black flag pregame

what did you think was going to come out of the original question about which alignment he likes the most - was that going to be AI in some way?


Here we are. Posts that you wanted responses to (and maybe some you didn’t):

Super’s ISO of each player – sorry if this is a long one but I’m finally going to be analysing the game properly now instead of glancing at posts and not fully reading into everything properly

Lilith

– I kinda liked the way Lilith entered the thread, it’s probably not even alignment indicative but I’m going to point out my initial gut-read anyways cos why the fk not? Lilith being like “first!!!!!!!!!!” to me is such a vibe and again, it’s probably a dumb thing to read into but personally I’m a pretty excited townie and the posts following that just felt chill and easy-going to a point where I just felt like they had no real nervousness or anxiety entering the thread – which I think town have a much easier time doing.

The above is the part where I feel like your reads on me and fb were quite similar. Like the “chill vibes” thing. Which I’m okay with when the reads were consistent.

viewtopic.php?p=12513566#p12513566 - #65 Lilith discredits Auro’s read on me which is fair enough but I find it interesting that Lilith says they “leaned the other way” (implying they scumread me for it I assume?) because it’s something they have done before yet Lilith has 0 meta on me or anything so honestly it should be NAI for them.

Again, I said it didn’t make me scumread you and that this conversation was more about Auro (who I have played with) than it was about you. My thinking that scum are more likely to do one thing than another doesn’t necessarily translate to thinking that scum are more likely to do it than town, so I didn’t see it as AI and I specifically said “I don’t have much of an impression.” I feel like you’re extrapolating a read here that I didn’t have and I specifically said I didn’t have.

Lilith also then discredits Autumn’s read or at least questioning of Koba’s “townslip” and says scum could just fake it – which is true but I find it interesting that Lilith’s early focus has been on discrediting reads instead of actually game-solving (genuinely trying to read people, which is what I focus on when trying to figure out someone’s alignment – how genuine they are being in their solving and tonal stuff).

I think you can probably get a decent explanation of my train of thought around this series of posts in the “thoughts re: infinity/autumn” section. I also have what I think may be a strange playstyle in that I tend to “nitpick” at things which I think you’re seeing as discrediting, and it might not make sense to you but it makes sense to me.

viewtopic.php?p=12513651#p12513651 - #87 – I also noticed that Firebringer was repeatedly complaining about the setup and honestly it was definitely weird for me at first and I kinda townread them for it but Petapan told me it’s NAI for them – I’ll talk about this more in my ISO of FB but anyways … I find it interesting that Lilith points this out but doesn’t really seem to be talking to FB in a way to figure out their alignment at all – it’s just a statement like.. “you’ve been saying it repeatedly” – okay Lilith – so, what do you think that means for their alignment then? And then they ask FB this dumb questioning about knowing the setup, it just feels meh and doesn’t seem like Lilith is even trying to read the slot idk am I crazy, hopefully this makes sense lmao

My read on fb is that I am unable to read fb and I’m probably going to end up outsourcing this to my team because who the fuck actually knows how to read him? From what I can tell, I think the general site consensus is, and I agree with this, that he is always jokey and sarcastic and whatever chill energy vibes stuff he has going on and I don’t particularly think any of these posts are AI. I have no insight into the difference between his towngames and scumgames because they look the same to me and with the limited amount of mental energy I have, it’s just not worth trying to parse fb when it’s going to require a Herculean amount of effort to get a read that I’m like 1% confident in.

I think the conversation between Auro/Lilith points to them probably not being partnered honestly. Auro is asking Lilith if they scumread my slot then and then Lilith is just like “not really?” even though they implied they felt the opposite about my intro post (meaning you kinda scum-leant it idk lol) – honestly just saying “not really” here is making me more or less think Lilith might just be town cos it’s such a shit answer LOL

See above, wasn’t a scumread.

Lilith literally spends most of their posts just engaging with Auro

Idk if this really requires a response but I think auro is the person I’m most familiar with (and even that level of familiarity is “not very familiar” when it comes to reading him because I’ve only been in like two games with him and both times I think I was scum and he was town so I’ve never had to read him). Never played with chennis, johnny, flopz, or you; and I think I’ve been in max one or two games with the rest of the list. So this is like, probably somewhat attributable to just straight up comfort level with auro as a person/player.

#139 – just really doubt Lilith/Auro are partners for this post also this is where I first started townreading Lilith because I find this post to be fairly genuine and it kinda feels like an appeal to Auro if they are town, but yeah it’s definitely where my townread began

So Lilith is going on about why Auro thinks it is an usual strategy for scum which is fine but honestly it still doesn’t feel like Lilith is actually trying to read Auro it’s more just trying to discredit their read on me like you can not agree on that read Auro has on me Lilith but do you think their read is genuine? Do you think they’re making this read on me up? What do you think that means for Auro’s alignment? I still think Lilith is fairly towny and all but I wanna know where their thought process on their read on Auro is here cos it feels like a little bicker about why reading someone as town for something may actually not be a good way to read someone instead of figuring out whether that person is mafia or not – does this make any sense??? I dunno but it’s a silly convo where I think Lilith is focusing on things that don’t necessarily matter

See above, my playstyle is probably not going to make sense to you given what you’ve said, but it makes sense to me.

#178 I kinda like that Lilith points out that Peta’s read on her isn’t completely legit cos she also can be spammy as scum

#239 again Lilith is hyper-focused on Auro and nothing else about their dumb read on me… like get over it and find mafia and talk to other people Lilith this just doesn’t make sense to me that you’re so focused on discrediting their read on me here

ok I mean I think I addressed this at least a bit, not really sure if I have a better explanation other than “it seemed relevant to me at the time and sometimes I’m just really fucking stubborn and can’t let go of something” which I feel like is in line with a bunch of other things I've said so far this game

Lilith then asks Infinity’s read on Koba and then bounces

This is a fair point, I thought I had mentioned already the work stuff but must have been after this. This was basically based on something a teammate said and I didn’t really have time/energy for anything else because of work.

I want to actually hear what Lilith’s reads are – it’s funny cos Lilith was my strongest townread based on my lurks and original vibes but now I’m not so sure after ISOing and seeing she has been so focused on Auro and no one else in the game. What are your other reads Lilith? What’s your thoughts on Auro since you’ve mostly spoken to them yet haven’t outed any reads at all? It’s funny cos I’m starting to worry Koba might be my biggest townread and I know they just are gonna fear-read me all game which might be a pain in my ass

She’s null, leaning-maybe town cos there are some towny things I have seen from her but need to see more.

As I’ve said, I think the reevaluation of your read on me, in a vacuum, is generally towny. The core of my issues with this reevaluation are the timing and the contrast to the reevaluation of fb. After I’d become less active, I think I probably would have seemed much more miselim-able around this time than I’d seemed when the thread originally opened and I was active. And this post came during that time. But I think infinity/auro following suit shortly after is probably worse than this. I’ll get to the contrast shortly.

I’m doing the rest of my ISO now after I took some time away to clear my head a bit, I’m going to try and not get too heated. I also have decided I wanna give everyone a cute nickname in the thread, Lilith was my first ISO already and I might quickly just add a little synopsis of my conclusion of them here so my reads are all together and it helps people find my thoughts easier.

Lilith – aka Lilly

Null-Leaning Maybe Town

- I ended up basically just having Lilith as a null read, there were reasons for me to town-read them but honestly their lack of actual scum-hunting and high-focus on Auro kinda made me a bit anxious of my original gut TR. After properly ISOing them I think I just really need to see where their head is at with their reads and Lilly if you’re reading this please read my ISO of you cos I asked some stuff that I want you to respond to but take your time. There was definitely a post directed at Auro which I townread early on and Gira and Jess both have a light townread on this slot but Jess didn’t elaborate that much so I don’t know why she townreads Lilly but anyways I just need Lilly to add some more content! I just think she dropped off a bit after my original read

I’m still confused about the reevaluation because nothing had changed in my posting other than the fact that I had no new posts. On the one hand you say I “dropped off” but on the other you say my original set of posts lacked scum-hunting, so I feel in some sense that this is also an incongruous explanation for the change in your read on me, and again, and it happened to conveniently coincide with my drop in activity.

FireBringer – aka Firb

Town

-

I had a pretty early town-lean on FireBringer because of the way they entered the thread complaining about the setup, I mentioned this with my team and said that I thought the fact they entered the thread kinda negatively was a risky thing to do as scum cos why would they wanna draw so much attention to themselves? Gira (petapan) told me because they were already complaining pre-game that this was likely NAI for them though so I slightly pushed the read aside.

I asked Firebringer what alignment they preferred because I was curious if maybe because they also flipped scum maybe that’s also why they were miserable about the setup (I love being town and kinda just assume everyone else does too) and in post #17 they say they prefer being scum which IMO made me kinda town-lean them in that moment too cos would they really be that complainy and miserable if they flipped scum in the setup they already disliked? (and scum was their fav alignment) obviously this isn’t the strongest read ever but it definitely was something I was thinking about. I like Firebringer’s response in their #19 post as well – I asked them whether they’d be happier if they flipped scum and they were like “probably but black flag still sucks” which felt like such a genuine response idk lol

Something about firebringer’s general vibe is just towny to me. Their first few posts are just so goddamn chill and it’s such a vibe that I just can’t help but think they’re town because of how laid back they are and how they just don’t seem to give a fuck.

#88 is also pretty towny imo, FB just saying their mission is to make someone paranoid is just…. Again, they do not give any fucks what people think of their slot and I townread them for it.

#108 is another post from FB that I like – they out that they townread Koba (even though they were voting them to kinda defend me early on which imo is such a way to get to my heart lmao) and they say they aren’t going to unvote though because they want people to still be paranoid of them – I just really don’t see scum being like this

#439 lol I kinda love how FB just does not give a shit that their posts aren’t very game-solvey or useful/they’re just kinda memeing – a lot of their posts overall are just filler tbh but for some reason I just really don’t see scum being like this at all. I don’t know FB and I don’t know if they are like this as scum but their tone and the way they are playing kinda fits in with how I think this person would play if they were in a setup they hated and were also town lmao

I just think FB is town at the moment and I feel pretty comfortable in this read

This brings me to: contrast

And maybe some like, personal (and you could say petty) annoyance/resentment towards fb as a player about how he slides by in like every single game without really needing to do anything because, as I mentioned, I feel like the general consensus is “who can read fb? not me” and thus we plebes who are not so fortunate are forced to toil for our continued survival every day

Okay, to get back to the issue at hand:

Here you have looked at fb’s ISO but do not take issue with his low amount of content, but you take issue with my low amount of content

He’s in thread more than I was during this period but you still take issue with my level of content over his

The original tonal reads seemed very similar, fb is in the thread but I’m not, but you prioritize reevaluating my lack of content over his lack of content when I just... am not there to produce content

Does it make sense why I’m feeling like you’re not treating us equally? And why I have an issue with your conclusions on the two of us being so different? I feel like you’ve taken such a critical eye to my ISO but not at all to his.

I read the rest of the ISOs but I don’t think I have anything to argue about from those so I’m not going to bother quoting them

VOTE: Vote: Autumn Leaves

first vote of the game idek if I'm doing it correctly... but ...damn I just read Leafy's intro again and it's bad. anything you have to say for yourself Leaf-o????

It felt like you had a pretty strong townread on infinity in your last ISO of him, so - what made that strong read flip so quickly/drastically? Was there a reason you didn't consider his opening posts in your ISO of him?

okay seems like this was a reaction test or something.. can you explain why you wanted to reaction test him at this particular point? or was there a particular reason?

this makes me actually wary of Chen because they have been the one who has been inciting the most fear into the towncore which is something scum would be wanting to do since it is nightless - gira made a good point in saying that as scum you cannot allow an uncontested townbloc to form and pushing against people who would otherwise be universal townreads is >rand scum

okay I mean, sure, but is it not true that this game has felt too "in unison"? first everyone scumreads infinity, townreads me, scumreads amy, townreads koba, townreads fb? Are you not concerned that there seems to be little to no resistance to most of the events that have occurred in this game?

[lilith2013]

@everyone else (I know amy is on here and she just replaced out but I wrote my responses to her before that happened and dammit I want my effort to be seen)

Spoiler: @koba

can someone explain why amp is scummy cuz their entrance reads were beefy and that kinda player usually sorts itself in tbe long run
also i think chenn is also possible scum and i wanna addess that when im a few drinks in

what about her reads were "beefy"? imo they were pretty vague and could easily be faked. Is there anything specifically in her readslist that felt towny to you?

so what would u say is the difference between ur scum and ur town play?

the short version: as scum, I don't know how to form an actual trajectory over an extended period of time / on multiple people at a time / that looks natural. I thought I was going to wax more poetic on this but I'm fucking fatigued after typing the rest of this catch-up so... let me know if you want to discuss more.

Spoiler: @auro

really? I kind of leaned the other way. I mean, that's the strategy that I've used myself when I have to fool people who know me.

I'm sure that every behaviour you can think of has been attempted by scum in the past. I think that it's unusual on average.

Also consider that that wasn't a simple playful push, it was an early discredit using out-of-game information.

So do you scumread Super, then?

why is an early discredit using out-of-game information more likely to be town? why is it townier than if she had made a "simple playful push," since you say that like it should make a difference? why does it being "unusual for scum" make you townread super? I feel like this is a surface level conclusion that doesn't actually talk about your personal opinion/thoughts regarding super's towniness/content and feels quite detached.

Well, consider this a heads up that I ask about a lot of random things but I promise they’re all related to something/make sense in my head/help me sort. So I’d appreciate if you’d humor me regardless of how useful or unuseful you think it is

Sure. And I'm curious - can you give me your answer to the same hypothetical?

why did you ask this?

The AL wagon is interesting from a gamestate perspective.

I'd like to know what you meant by this.

Auro's Solid(??) Conclusions™

Super

: Moderate town. Vibe with her, love the enthusiasm, study of her EM scumgames pending but I'm sure she'd put in a ton of effort as scum.

chennisden

: Lean town. Ironically this is not so much from his content itself but rather the mild emotion I could parse from his posts. Covered this in earlier posts.

Flopz

: Null town, and one of the slots I need to take a good look at again. Asked Xtoxm to ISO him as well.

Firebringer

: Null town, was comfy with Fire!town earlier but now I'm kinda getting thrown off, he's succeeding in his paranoia mission .-.

Auro

: Null town. Who knows, really?

JohnnyFarrar

: Null~ needs more posts, no reason to believe intentional lurk.

Ampharos

: Null~ needs more posts, don't think he was intentionally lurking either

Lilith2013

: Lean scum. Was never concerned with her activity and I'm waiting for her to come back, but I'm not a huge fan of her set of questions as a whole. She has a harder time asking meaningful questions as scum IME and that's the feeling I get so far.

DkKoba

: Lean scum. I get the feel that he's mucking up the gamestate and his impatience and stubbornness feel

Autumn Leaves

: Lean scum. Attacks on me seemed fabricated. Seemed to show towny exasperation which eroded my read, but his lack of follow-up in figuring out what's off is pulling him down again.

**Tiers are unranked

This scumread on koba seems really out of left field, can you explain how you got there? I don't really remember any indication from previous posts that you were scumreading them.

Spoiler: @fb

he would treat lilith as eternal null which i found interest cause i was hard towning her

does norwee have an explanation for this? he's only played one game with me and I was town so.. I have no idea where this is coming from

Spoiler: @amy (now useless rip)

mmmmmmmmokay, we got enough of a game on our hands that I'm comfortable doing a quick sort

==lean v==

lilith

- Simply put, I think she's been asking the right sorts of questions, and showing the proper amount of care and followup towards said questions. It's easy for scum to just fire off some nonsense questions to try to blend in... but the fact that she's hounding people for answers and seems to be legitimately considering them and following up pretty strongly indicates town to me.

Which questions are you referring to, and how are they the "right sorts" of questions?

dkkoba

- honestly mostly vibes. I tried to find a concrete thing I could point to but I honestly just think the way they're navigating the thread rn is town-indicative. This is the type of read that always seems to wind up biting me in the ass somewhere down the line but that's future Amy's problem, heh

Can you explain what you mean by "the way they're navigating the thread"?

Super

- This one's cheating because I'm extremely susceptible to people who know how to write more than two sentences in a post, but I think I agree with her assessment that she should be a fairly easily townread (off my whopping sample size of one game lmao) and I'm feelin' it here.

Why were/are you townreading super?

==also kinda lean v but weaker i guess? tiers are fake anyways==

chennisden

- I noted #156 as being a read I thought was towny - I don't think it's necessarily a GOOD read here, but I think it's the type that comes from town more often than not.

okay

Auro

- seems comfortable in-thread, in a villagery sort of way.

I also don't really know what this means. Can you give an example of him seeming comfortable and why that's town-indicative?

Autumn Leaves

(or Infinity, or whoever) - Approach feels somewhat cagey, and if Firebringer is town then I like this slot's posting about koba's "slip" a hell of a lot less - I think there's a tendency for scum to legitimately want to call things townslips if the person doing them is town, and I think that sharing such a thought is an easy way to contribute to the thread without much effort (obviously koba would ALSO have to be town here, but that's not something I'm super concerned about rn). I specify Firebringer being town in this scenario primarily due to the way Firebringer talks about this slot later on - namely, throwing a lot of shade and supporting votes in a way that I don't think is w/w.

Again, could you point to a couple posts and describe what about them seems cagey to you?

I do seem to be on the outside looking in wrt meta stuff - I've got one game with Super, but it was a hydra game, and I've got one game with Auro (and maybe lilith? or maybe I made that up) as part of a THREE-headed hydra and I honestly couldn't tell you whose posts were whose for that one, so I'm not counting it. Kinda refreshing tbh - means I have to rely a lot more on actual analysis than I usually do, especially d1.

VOTE: Autumn Leaves

hi yes, I was in cards of destiny as the D&D hydra

why vote infinity over fb here? do you think fb is likely to be town?

Spoiler: @infinity/autumn

VOTE: auro

I'm still on page 7 but I wanted to do this, chenn's reason for SRing auro feels like it matches up pretty well, and I've gotten good mileage out of emotional tells like those, even very early.

what was your read on chennis at the time? did you have a read on auro or was this just sheeping or? this feels like you are just not particularly invested in this vote

Sigh

Chenn can you at least talk to me? Because I was gonna try to convince you that auro is still scum, but the feeling around the read is a bit similar to when I've been wrong on strong SRs in the past. So idk. I'm already struggling this game because I don't do well when people SR me, or when they don't engage with me, and both have been happening a lot this game. I also have too many TRs. I am pretty confident

super is town based on the lilith read and the interactions with koba

, so that's a place to start at least. But yeah my teammates are all busy and I need people to talk to.

Koba you know that I struggle when people SR me as town and don't engage with me so you continuing to do those things is pretty awful play.

Can you explain what you mean by "super is town based on the lilith read and the interactions with koba," and also explain how your read changed to where you think she might be scum?

Except lilith is still towny, so that's good.

What made you say this?

Congrats johnny!

As far as a summary goes, koba has been tunneled on super for most of the game, me and chenn were SRing auro at the beginning but backed off, flopz and his buddies were SRing me at the beginning, but then backed off because part of the case was based on misremembering meta. Koba was also SRing me but lately they've been re-evaluating a lot of reads. Lilith hasn't really been here but she came back recently. I'm re-evaluating a bunch of reads since my early take on the game felt off. The game seems to be kinda resetting since a bunch of people are coming back and/or re-evaluating. Amph hasn't been here and we're wagoning her for pressure I guess. Chenn and fb got into a meme-y 1v1 which people are trying to get reads from for some reason. Most people TR koba and super.

Lilith, what are your reads on flopz and chenn?

scumreading flopz, townleaning chenn
Can you describe what you've been doing up to this point in the game in terms of "re-evaluating"? What was the progressions of your reads/results of your reevaluation when you posted this?

[lilith2013]

Spoiler: thoughts re: infinity/autumn

Feels like his early posts are focused on discussing townslips. At first I thought he was trying to explain that it was a true townslip from koba:

Feel like scum are more likely to notice that the setup is nightless

Koba, explain the vote

Depending on meta, it's NAI yeah

If you find something that scum is unlikely to think to fake, then it's towny

Or if they do analysis based on the mech mistake that seems very genuine

Etc

Lilith I like it when you post

PEdit: depends on what the specific slip is though.

but on the previous page he specifically asked koba if they fake townslips a lot:

no the townslip was real its me being town

Ok but you do fake townslips a lot right

so where exactly was this discussion on townslips going?? why keep discussing it if he thought koba would be a person who would try to fake it? how was continuing to talk about townslips going to help him sort anyone if he already knew/thought that it shouldn't be town-indicative of koba because koba would be someone who fakes slips?

Now this chain is getting messy. What message were you saying you didn't disagree with?

My initial question was in regard to your reaction to Super's post, whose post you were saying you did not like there. As it seems Super's post agreed with what you were saying in terms of Koba's bad (read as lack of) reasoning that you referenced in 129. So I wanted to know why you didn't like it?

This felt towny to me, like he's really putting in the effort to try and sort chenn

lol I said "meh" to myself, then clicked to the next page and saw myself post "meh." at least I'm consistent.. This post and flopz' post quoted in it just feel kinda underwhelming to me.

This is also how I won a lot of my scumgames when I still played. I didn't try to create bad vibes early on, I just let town do whatever they wanted, bantered, and tried to create "good vibes" (and made sure I was part of the "group.") I am concerned that this is happening to the game right now.

Hard agree with this take, I'm voting amph right now because I don't know who's scum inside the townbloc/activitybloc and I think amph is the most likely scum outside of it.

more "meh," I'm a bit underwhelmed again. I feel like not putting in effort to sort the "townbloc" even though you've stated you think there's scum in it is like... just such a "path of least resistance" especially with all of the suspicion on amy's slot at this point

Spoiler: thoughts re: chennis

Auro your posts feel purposeful to the point of being manipulative - I feel like you have an agenda that's too well-defined to be uninformed

Interesting, can you talk to me in specifics? Which posts of mine suggest I'm being manipulative?

Manipulative was probably the wrong word, agenda-driven is probably better. I guess what I'm trying to say is your posts seem to be subtly doing things.

33, 42 - trying to form a bloc

85 - justifying said bloc

106 - prematurely attempting to force someone to take the position of the opposition to said block

Also I don't know exactly why but "nobody here can read me well xD" gives me heebie jeebies

Even your jokey posts kind of feel purposeful. Maybe it's a "you" thing, I don't honestly remember after who knows how long, but by default I'd at least be suspicious of this behavior and call it out

I don't think I really agree with these characterizations of auro's posts even if I like the push on auro overall. In particular I wouldn't say that 106 was trying to force koba to oppose the block, and if anything was doing that it would have been auro asking if I scumread super. However, the timing of the push coincides with where I was starting to comment on auro's posts during my reread so I feel like maybe the right intent is still there.

so I woke up and had a discussion with shady and gira this morning about Koba and me wanting them to ISO them because I'm worried they could be scum refusing to change their read on me and it felt weird to me that they honestly don't TR me by now - shady made a good point in saying that a townblock of 4 town and 1 scum is game-winning for town. he said anyone inciting fear into a towncore is probably coming from a scum!mindset because scum literally have it harder than town this setup as they have to miselim 4 townies to win - meaning scum will NOT want there to be a townblock. having 1 deepwolf isn't a worry for us and Koba being hyper paranoid of me/inciting fear into my slot when they know good and well as town I'm very fucking towny is a worry because it DOES NOT MATTER to them if I'm scum if they're town because the townblock only needs 4 townies in it to win.

I don't think Koba is scum at this point and I want this to be known because I know this post is going to bug them

- shady is actually sending me his read on Koba's ISO as I'm typing this and he is saying he still townreads them but that they shouldn't be so wary of me when even if I am scum it doesn't matter cos you'd need two deepwolves this game to lose as town.

this makes me actually wary of Chen because they have been the one who has been inciting the most fear into the towncore which is something scum would be wanting to do since it is nightless - gira made a good point in saying that as scum you cannot allow an uncontested townbloc to form and pushing against people who would otherwise be universal townreads is >rand scum

It's a fair point that you don't need your bloc to be perfect, but I'm actually really wary of

you

because you've been the one trying to get people to blindly trust a towncore that is probably little better than random, which is something scum would want to do for obvious reasons

I have no reason to trust this towncore. I think super/fb are probably more likely town than not, but I do not want to start drawing boxes, and before you say "but chennis nobody was saying we should locktown X Y and Z," yeah that might be technically true, but is it really? Are we really approaching every slot with the due diligence it deserves or are we just too scared to break this tentative townblock? A townblock that can't survive scrutiny doesn't deserve to even exist.

I'm not calling for the "leaders" of the townblock to be lynched, I'm calling for the townblock to be

examined

. There's a major difference.

in general I feel like chennis has been kind of, vocally against the majority in a way that I think doesn't benefit him as scum very much, and I like this analysis and the general thought process here around questioning the.. staleness? of the gamestate in his following posts (eg 1231)

Spoiler: thoughts re: super

I'm not really sure what I think of Koba this game, Shady actually was saying that Koba's reasoning for townreading me felt like a genuine thought from Koba and Shady also liked Koba's initial vote on me because he thinks scum!Koba may have actually not voted me straight away after reading my post about them probably wanting to tunnel me this game (but Shady also said that Koba would probably wanna push me as scum cos they know pushing me makes me break as town/unable to form reads as town). I feel like Koba might actually be town now that I'm typing this cos I am thinking that if Koba was scum they probably would wanna push me hard so I had trouble reading other players in the game and getting reads. I do like how Koba thinks I can be towny as scum and only cracked at lylo though it's cute, but I flipped town so I'mma be towny all game

this is becoming a larger reads post cos you guys are actually posting a lot faster than I expected and just wanna out my thoughts before I go out for dinner

as I said before I think Lilith is town, they're coming across as very genuine in their interactions with Auro and Peta backed my read up on them up so I feel confident in this at the moment (things can change idk but right now I think they're pretty towny)

Firebringer is an interesting read for me lmao, early on I kinda tr their entrance of not liking black flag, cos Idk why mafia would wanna draw so much attention to themselves like this - I mentioned this to my teammates and Peta said that this is NAI for Firebringer because apparently they were complaining about this setup pre-game too so idk. I need to hear their reads out more to get a proper read on them but honestly I am slightly leaning town only cos their behaviour just feels... idk - them telling people they're trying to get paranoia on them, I dunno if they'd be like that as scum :S

Autumn I need to probably see more from I don't really know what to think

Auro I kinda felt were town but this is probably being influenced by their own read on me, but I felt like it was a genuine read and I like how they kinda jumped straight into scumhunting

others I haven't really read much, Chennis is a cute pichu thing who didn't understand my first question directed at them and when I responded it fkd up and I never actually went back to respond properly I should probably do that

I don't think I really like this post in retrospect, in light of super later backing off from townreading me. This post actually indicates a stronger tonal read on me than the read she had on fb and, once again, her townread disappeared at a really convenient time for reasons that I think are circumspect, because nothing about the original reason super listed for townreading me had changed, it was just my activity level. the other reads are kinda meh. Maybe I'm just a party pooper but the recent sorting and re-sorting of koba in thread is coming off as excessive possibly to the point of being performative

thoughts above are corroborated by super having me at the

top

of her readslist here:

i meant reads on everyone

ok from towniest to least i'd go

lilith
koba (this read makes me nervous though)
firebringer (breather? idr)
auro
autumn
chennis


idr who else is in the game cos i have a memory of a goldfish

oh there is amy (amph?) who I played a MU game with so that's exciting but I don't think she has posted yet

also I really dislike the townread on flopz but I don't think that's necessarily scum-indicative, I just strongly disagree with it maybe

here is my little reads list for today before others come back and post and add some content:

Town: Koba, Firebringer
Leaning town: Lilith,
Need to see more from: Amy, Johnny
On the fence: Auro, Flopz
Lower-tier/Null: Autumn/Chen

I don't exactly have any scumreads and I've downgraded a lot of people since my big ISO-bin because I think I'm townreading people too easily and I only want to focus on having REALLY strong townreads to be deserved to be 100% in my town pool - for example I read some stuff Autumn said as tonally good but it wasn't as strong as a read I have on others - same as Chen-Chen, the only reason they dropped is because their defensiveness to me weird ~strange~ and I don't like them inciting paranoia to a townbloc which imo is something scum would be doing this game - I do agree that we should be wary of a townbloc forming if it has two scum in it, it's always good to be careful but being continuously paranoid about it d1 is a strange thing for me to understand - we have 3 MLs we can use

Koba is just Town. I think their responses to me have been good and their wariness of me makes sense, I could go into a deep analysis of why they're town but meh I don't feel like it right now unless someone presses it.


Firebringer has felt Town to me most of the game because of their attitude/interactions with others, I started townreading them even more when they spouted a random thought of me potentially pocketing them but them just being OK with it. it'd be kinda lame to find out they are scum this game and I got pocketed by someone who hasn't really been producing the greatest reads ever but idk I just vibe with this slot a lot and if later on they ping me maybe I will re-evaluate this read.

Lilith I had a pretty early TR on for a post which gave off good tone but it dropped when I ISOd their slot and realised a lot of their effort was focused on Auro but they never came to any conclusions on that slot until now - I think their anger at me and read on me feels genuine and this points to them being town because of how much they fucking cared about my townread dissipating, idk if scum would be hyper focused on that and then go and say it was scummy of me - idk felt town indicative to be that annoyed about it. peta says her drop in content is worrying and the excuses are fakeable but he still town-leans her but says she needs to do more

Flops is a funny one because I had been townreading their approach and vibing with the way they were playing but my teammates have a different idea of this slot and kinda scumread them, hence why I'm on the fence and probably need to interact with them 1 v 1 more. they seem like a good player and someone who could very much sneak into a townbloc of some kind, peta thinks the extent in which he is citing teammates is excessive

Auro I had a early tr on for their read on me - idk why they'd try and pocket me so early on (literally in their first post) but yeah. peta thinks they feel a bit scummy and thinks they wander off into theotricals without taking any stances - plus 876 feels fencesitty to peta. another slot I'm on the fence about and need to 1 v 1

Amy I need to see more from and will probably try meta read her through the MU game we played - I have a feeling her lack of being here and playing a game is kinda towny tbh lol

Johnny I also need more from but peta says he is known to be very lurky as town and an easy miselim for scum, peta also thinks he doesn't sound like he is forcing content and liked their take on koba but not enough to town read him yet

Chen I had reasons to tr in my ISO and I probably need to look back over that - I kinda explained earlier why they dropped down for me and it's going to take a lot more for me to just TR a player, I'm gonna try being harder on myself anyways. peta said they have no idea what they think of chen but kinda townlean from their recent posts(?)

Autumn another slot I tonally tr a bit but yeah again, as I said, I don't know if that's enough for me to tr them fully - they did incite some paranoia on me but yeah idk what they means for them. peta says could be town but didn't really like 606.

peta told me not to say his reads cos they were just super vague and impressionistic but I posted some of them anyways cos they kinda help me since he knows you guys more than me

I basically TR koba/fb/lilith and everyone else needs to impress me with their towniness

pretty meh on this though, I'm struggling to distinguish between general sorting and vague fencesittiness though

Spoiler: thoughts re: auro

Intensity and aggression for why I like you.

Post 7 for the townread, especially the part about DkKoba.

For a self-branded scum tryhard, immediate antagonization of a player you're familiar with seems like an unusual strategy for scum. Or am I mistaken?

something about this post is still rubbing me the wrong way. I don't know what it is exactly but my initial reaction was to try to poke at Auro for it and I don't feel like that was a wrong instinct. I didn't really get anything satisfactory out of it but I feel like this post was really early for a townread on a super post that I was personally quite skeptical of, and it almost feels like buddying in retrospect. at least I don't think it's S/S.

what about the Koba part is a towntell? (I was honestly going to post the same thing regardless of my alignment about Koba so it was pre-planned fwiw)

Do you not consider my last paragraph in that post to be an explanation?

Noted re: you pre-planning it, if you know what I mean.

Firebringer will you like me less if I say I like mountainous nightless? :3

I don't think I like this either. Super gives Auro an explanation for her post that in my opinion should change his read but it doesn't and he barely reacts.

re: back and forth with me on "what would you do as scum." As I mentioned, I noticed later that he had actually answered my question in his first post so I missed it and thought he was deflecting my questions and kept hounding him. I stopped as soon as I realized but also feel like auro should have noticed himself that he had answered my question and that might actually make me feel worse about this conversation than if he hadn't answered the question and deflected me later

I got work to do :$ can't afford to sit refreshing MS all day. I'll usually have lower activity during the week.

Firebringer, I'm actually a little thrown off by your play tbh, it just feels unfamiliar. Your 1v1 with Chennisden (btw I figured how ya got that username Chennis, nice one) feels like a meme (love the rap battle btw) do you actually have something on him? Also you called my AL vote a good vote, mentioned your teammates scumread him, and also said you think he's scum: I'm wondering why you haven't pushed AL directly / voted for him so far?
Also 722 is not fully correct look at this game viewtopic.php?f=56&t=83407

DkKoba, you're pretty worried about my lurking while also continuously dodging my Q about Nancy's secret: mind answering? You

just

read my scumgames and I'm pretty much a hyperposter in those so asking me if I'm lurking because I'm "scared" is

I strongly disagree with takes on AL's opening being bad, fwiw I loved the poem. However I'm expecting AL to adopt a more aggressive inquisitive style right now after his recognition that something's off and said he'll talk to people to figure it out, but his posts in recent pages seem to be laid-back.

I like a lot of Flopz' takes and I also like Flopz, but I'm having a hard time forming a read on him :$

Johnny, can you tell me whether and how Chennis' posts after his attack on me have influenced your read on him? Do your reads from 264 look different now? (Especially interested in whether the "blind spots" have opened up)

I think I like this post more than I expected (which is to say: more than none), agree with points on infinity although not on.. maybe anyone else but I feel like at this point maybe that's a good sign

Spoiler: thoughts re: koba

I don't think I have good reasons to scumread them per se, but a lot of their positions seem like they are posturing to achieve certain things in the thread. Not necessarily scum-indicative, but it's not a playstyle that I agree with when it comes from town. For example, they insist that super might be scum and should not be townread and say that they have a gut feeling that super is scum, but then post things like this:

auro sees big paragraph from super: oh fuck this player is probably dangerous better pocket them

which doesn't mesh with the idea that super is scum. If they're scumreading auro then surely they don't think scum!auro is trying to "pocket" scum!super? I feel like this language belies the scumread/gutread on super that koba has been claiming to have.

can someone explain why amp is scummy cuz their entrance reads were beefy and that kinda player usually sorts itself in tbe long run
also i think chenn is also possible scum and i wanna addess that when im a few drinks in

I think this response is kind of weird considering all of the vagueness I found in the referenced post by amy. Just feels like they didn't bother to actually read the readslist and just saw a lot of words and went "ok." corresponding questions in the @koba section

my gut says flopz is scum and thats why theyre relying a lot on teammates to get "reads" rn. Flopz, what are YOUR personal reads rn?

decent take/followup on this post I think, and it lines up with where I'm at on flopz as well

VOTE: flopz

okay good vote

Spoiler: thoughts re: amy (ampharos)

mmmmmmmmokay, we got enough of a game on our hands that I'm comfortable doing a quick sort

==lean v==

lilith

- Simply put, I think she's been asking the right sorts of questions, and showing the proper amount of care and followup towards said questions. It's easy for scum to just fire off some nonsense questions to try to blend in... but the fact that she's hounding people for answers and seems to be legitimately considering them and following up pretty strongly indicates town to me.

dkkoba

- honestly mostly vibes. I tried to find a concrete thing I could point to but I honestly just think the way they're navigating the thread rn is town-indicative. This is the type of read that always seems to wind up biting me in the ass somewhere down the line but that's future Amy's problem, heh

Super

- This one's cheating because I'm extremely susceptible to people who know how to write more than two sentences in a post, but I think I agree with her assessment that she should be a fairly easily townread (off my whopping sample size of one game lmao) and I'm feelin' it here.

==also kinda lean v but weaker i guess? tiers are fake anyways==

chennisden

- I noted #156 as being a read I thought was towny - I don't think it's necessarily a GOOD read here, but I think it's the type that comes from town more often than not.

Auro

- seems comfortable in-thread, in a villagery sort of way.

==danger zone!==

Firebringer

- Seems to be the sort of poster I always have trouble drawing a bead on, but I feel like the schtick felt a little forced early on, and I feel like his game-relevant contributions have been... easy, I guess? The most against-the-grain thing he's done, as far as I can tell, is locking Auro town, and if he's scum that seems like an easy TMI to make? Just based on the sort of poster Auro seems to be.

Autumn Leaves

(or Infinity, or whoever) - Approach feels somewhat cagey, and if Firebringer is town then I like this slot's posting about koba's "slip" a hell of a lot less - I think there's a tendency for scum to legitimately want to call things townslips if the person doing them is town, and I think that sharing such a thought is an easy way to contribute to the thread without much effort (obviously koba would ALSO have to be town here, but that's not something I'm super concerned about rn). I specify Firebringer being town in this scenario primarily due to the way Firebringer talks about this slot later on - namely, throwing a lot of shade and supporting votes in a way that I don't think is w/w.

===========

that's probably everyone who's posted, I think

I do seem to be on the outside looking in wrt meta stuff - I've got one game with Super, but it was a hydra game, and I've got one game with Auro (and maybe lilith? or maybe I made that up) as part of a THREE-headed hydra and I honestly couldn't tell you whose posts were whose for that one, so I'm not counting it. Kinda refreshing tbh - means I have to rely a lot more on actual analysis than I usually do, especially d1.

VOTE: Autumn Leaves

I initially didn't like this post
on reread I was okay with where the reads were position-wise
on second reread I still didn't like the post though

I'm probably not going to be able to explain this one properly but like, the reads themselves seem fine, they seem to be not crazy far out of lef field, so what on earth is my brain ringing alarm bells for? I should be happy that amy's reads are reasonable.. right????? and my conclusion is that it's something about the way she expresses the reads that doesn't sit right with me, and similar to what chennis was saying recently, these are kinda like,

safe

reads... ie easy for scum to make when looking at the gamestate at that time. and I don't think anything here is particularly unfakeable as scum. the townreads section is.. quite vague and I came away from this post with no idea of the specific things people had done to make amy townread them or like examples of where she thought they were towny. the scumreads section is also quite vague and I'm not very satisfied with the explanations on both infinity and fb which seem to be very conditional and then she voted infinity without explaining why she preferred infinity over fb (which by her written conditions in her reads, implies she thinks fb is more likely to be town?). I also feel like town!amy in the one game I've seen her in was a lot more specific/analytical than this, so while I hesitate to use meta as a sole argument for scumreading, I think more specificity is within her townrange and have yet to see it.

Spoiler: thoughts re: flopz

don't really understand the townreads on this slot, I feel like a lot of their posts follow a very similar pattern of looking like they have content but not really saying much. For example:

Back to my reads, Lilith- Don't disagree with what they were saying to AL or really what they were saying with Auro.

119/120 - fire/lilith is weird, not sure how either would not know that Team Mafia means working with your team, it's kind of in the name.

188 - fortunately that term is mainly relegated to Zoomers so most people don't use it and I am always grateful for that.

I like their challenges to Autumn about the whole townslips/scumslips thingie

almost none of this is AI, the comments don't say anything about what he thinks my alignment is based on the linked post, and just like.... how is this post even contributing to moving the game forward?

other posts (ie 387, 395): remembered correctly earlier, I disliked this kind of derailing into meta discussion on infinity, it feels super tangential and again not like it's really trying to move the game forward. He basically drops this train of thought entirely and I don't see any sign of reads having been furthered as a result of the discussion.

more posts that I feel like are not really doing much to further the gamestate and all seem pretty surface-level in terms of the questions, and therefore fakeable:

FireBringer – aka Firb

Town

-

#439 lol I kinda love how FB just does not give a shit that their posts aren’t very game-solvey or useful/they’re just kinda memeing – a lot of their posts overall are just filler tbh but for some reason I just really don’t see scum being like this at all. I don’t know FB and I don’t know if they are like this as scum but their tone and the way they are playing kinda fits in with how I think this person would play if they were in a setup they hated and were also town lmao

Thanks for doing a readslist, I feel like there are too many players trying to coast here and some effortposting is always good to see.

I wanted to ask you more about your fire read, I recently subscribed to a "Charging at coasters/lurkers" newsletter so am looking for the juiciest target atm. Why does doing nothing strike you as so Townie, like I can understand the aloofness, showing they don't care about the game as much which is arguably a more townie mindset but is that enough for you to rate them so high when they really haven't exactly done much else?

Btw, to link a post, you just type in the number of the post, highlight it and then click to post button on the right side of the preview screen (near the smilies).

as a fellow spammer

Can you give me some things to work with lad, I don't want this game to devolve into more pulling teeth then it has already. Who do you think are acting the most scummy atm? Also have your views changed on AL changed?

Johnny, I just went through your ISO and you're basically just screaming Null. I need

moooooooore

.

Can you throw a cheeky bit of substance my way.

Are you still SRing Chen and Koba or have those changed now? Also, what's your view on the others you haven't talked about yet, it's interesting that you don't have a view on AL or Auro yet so would like to explore that further.

Woah, also congrats on the kid. Missed that the last time I saw your posts.

Looking through the posts after I went to bed yesterday, I think I'm reasonably comfortable with a TownKoba read.

Koba seems to be continuing their "I'm right, I have all the answers and I'm not sharing them with anyone, everyone else is below me" shtick which everyone whose had the pleasure to play with them will know and love. This is a nightless game Koba, please actually work with us and not try to solve the game on your own becuase that doesn't help anyone.

I would like to ask is if anyone else has experience with their scum-game and if there are any differences in play-style becuase from what I've seen this looks the same to their previous town game with me.

and this jfc

have not had time to sit down and write replies/thoughts since last night, planning to do that tomorrow

Hi Lilith, so is this going to happen today or are you saying you're too busy?

god I could quote his whole damn ISO. I'm just going to stop here because this seems like not a good use of post space. but his whole ISO is just this very surface-level stuff that doesn't really try to sort anyone imo

sorry I know this is getting excessive but just like, every single time I see flopz show up in the thread I'm like "damn I need to quote this to point to a really low-effort/fakeable/surface-level/non-game-solving post" and then I remember I already have probably too many examples but just wtf is this ISO. I'm on page 30 and I have yet to see a post from flopz that I'd consider town-indicative.

Spoiler: thoughts re: fb

Coolio, so have your AL reads changed or do you still think that they are a bit scummy? (I'm ref 227)

my autumn leaves read is about at same state as was before. yeah.

What exactly is you Autumn read as I think that's the only comment you've made about them and that's not excatly giving much info

I think autumn leaves is scum. I thought their entrance and interaction with lilith was how he would go about it as scum trying to pocket her. That initial vibe hasn't died but it is quelled in that he hasn't done anything directly that makes me think he is working for townreads or appease anyone, but at same time i think well maybe his alignment dependent on if lilith is scum or town and i want to get a good read there.

On the one hand I really like this post
On the other I'm frankly shocked that fb has made a content-ful post that I agree with and think is good and am possibly slightly alarmed by it because I don't know that I was expecting to ever see eye-to-eye with fb on mafia things
Some of my team members have agreed that we like fb and we like fb's posts but have no idea what that means for his alignment. same with:

i really do have a scum read on chennis. I need to case him so u all see what im seeing. Initially the push was memey but i think i posted "ohh i believe he really is scum" and it was at that point i really bought into the chennisden scum thing.

If you wanna do this now I'm all ears

ohh let me give u the short version before i give long version:
short version is i think chennisden is exceptionally wooden for whaat he has posted. I think he has holding back emotions and got some passive aggressive when it came to me earlier in game, i tought he was being exceptionally strange in our 1v1 and i think he knew what he wanted out of that cause there was nothing he was doing to progress a read.

look at his post of 156; at tht point i think he waas trying to give too much on a read to say he had a read when he didn't haave anything. In other words tried harder to put words to postings to justify read when nothing existed. and when he dove more into it 174 i don't feel he believes u were scum originally or his interaction screams he is talking to an actual scumread.

look at his interaction with me. first few posts in this game he talked about me like he disliked me (he says he reads me by annoyance level with me); that pretty much was non-existent in our little tiff and he backed of easily. Now could u say he was just holding back, sure, its just i don't think he had any intention of using that to read me. I think he got stuck into a reactionary omgus, didn't know how to progress with that omgus because he couldn't find anything to do push or angle to take it, decided "fuck it. ill just say im joking don't care" and left it. Like it was easy to do that, and then he pretends like he had balls to do something in which he showed no courage or conviction to do while saying he was like doing something out of ordinary for someone to do.

[lilith2013]

and finally, quick summary of where I think I am in terms of reads:

infinity/autumn: probscum, don't like recent "oh let me reevaluate the townbloc, super might be scum" stuff without seeming to put in much effort to reevaluate
chennis: like his vocal dissent, think it's not scum-indicative
super: ???? fucking paranoid
auro: probably town I think based on similar thoughts on infinity but not very strong read
koba: probably town but I want to scumread them but it's probably only because I didn't like their approach to me and I'm kind of trusting some other reads on this one
amy: null
flopz: scum please burn with fire
fb: ???????? who the fuck knows
johnny: null

[lilith2013]

does norwee have an explanation for this? he's only played one game with me and I was town so.. I have no idea where this is coming from

i can ask him if you want.

yes please, I don't think it'll affect much reads-wise given the state of my read on you (lmao) but just out of curiosity

[lilith2013]

nancy said i should locktown u forever for this much effort and im inclined to agree

lilith can effort as scum. She probably would not be able to effort in same way she just did as scum though.

yeah I mean - can I effort as scum? absolutely (probably need to be very drunk though). would I? probably only if I had a killer team (fond memories of city that never sleeps)

[lilith2013]

VOTE: flopz let's kill it with fire thanks

[lilith2013]

oh sorry (◕‸ ◕✿) uh... let's kill it with lava

[lilith2013]

AURO DID YOU GET WHAT YOU WANTED

[lilith2013]

Lilith,

1. I addressed it here:

Sure. Scum generally think about the outcomes of their actions and whether they are ultimately benefit from them. When someone's in unfamiliar territory with only one known player, antagonizing them early is on an average detrimental.

I'm making a distinction between pushing someone and antagonizing them - the former is a much safer play, as in the latter case the person you antagonized may just be disposed towards having you out.

Super's post felt like the latter to me, as it was an immediate discredit of any future push from DkKoba. It made more sense that it was a remark just coming from town as opposed to a planned, intentional scum post. Super's confident attitude in surrounding posts strengthened this.

Did you miss this, or was this explanation unsatisfactory?

oh oops I wrote the question before I got to this part and then forgot I wrote it because the post was so large so uh... let's say I missed it

2. I was just curious, as I stated. It felt mildly interesting because you asked me that question.

cool

3. Yup it was the quick successive jump-ons, a trend I noted was happening often in game. I mentioned it to X and he said it could indicate scum in the "outgroup" [people not participating in these quick stance trends] and agreed to take a look at it together, actual analysis still pending, will do soon.

very interested in the results of said analysis

4. I was getting increasingly annoyed at his posting and he felt more disruptive in a noisy sense, especially all that progression around Super which was but then again it does seem to just be his style and I have to account for bias

lol

[lilith2013]

oh idk

[lilith2013]

hold on I feel like that was years ago in my brain, I forgot that even happened

[lilith2013]

I stopped as soon as I realized but also feel like auro should have noticed himself

So my interpretation of your question was as though it was independent hypothetical and not directly in the context of what was going on with Super - given that I said I don't believe that how whether someone specific would do it as scum is independent of probability assignments of whether scum would do it in general just clarifying

ok

AURO DID YOU GET WHAT YOU WANTED

No, I was expecting you to specifically pursue the <Auro isn't engaging with his scumleans> attack you made a while ago: does this mean you were satisfied with my address of it? What happened to it?

okay I think your explanations about wanting wagons made sense and I was probably letting my annoyance of being a scumlean on your readslist me influence my mindset to not want to agree with you, but I think if I get past the level 1 pettiness I see where you were coming from and I'm like, not super happy with this resolution (I'd rather be RIGHT, you know?) but I don't think it's worth pursuing further

[lilith2013]

Spoiler: long post reply to lilith eww content

And maybe some like, personal (and you could say petty) annoyance/resentment towards fb as a player about how he slides by in like every single game without really needing to do anything because, as I mentioned, I feel like the general consensus is “who can read fb? not me” and thus we plebes who are not so fortunate are forced to toil for our continued survival every day

Okay, to get back to the issue at hand:

Here you have looked at fb’s ISO but do not take issue with his low amount of content, but you take issue with my low amount of content

He’s in thread more than I was during this period but you still take issue with my level of content over his

The original tonal reads seemed very similar, fb is in the thread but I’m not, but you prioritize reevaluating my lack of content over his lack of content when I just... am not there to produce content

u should see all the games in which i get eliminated because people can't read me. you probably only see the games that "people let me get away with it". as if its my fault others are challenged in their ability to form a strong opinion of me. which sometimes it is, but i think i leave plenty of evidence and could write a book on how to read me, i just won't because i am not gonna help others improve reading me when i think its their job to do it.

i also 100% agree with u people reading me of tone are wrong and dumbheaded but i can't do nothing about it for ur annoyance because people gonna do it whether i tell them to or not.

also if u want to enjoy the status of the "let people let u slide" or w/e, ur gonna have to learn how to not care about how others view ur slot. Which u have yet to learn in ur mafia career. I think you see people giving me passes for not giving content and wish u get more leeway but ur not going to get that leeway till u learn that appeasing those people is always going to end up with u doing a dance in front of them to get that read u want. idk just tips for mental health.

As I’ve said, I think the reevaluation of your read on me, in a vacuum, is generally towny. The core of my issues with this reevaluation are the timing and the contrast to the reevaluation of fb. After I’d become less active, I think I probably would have seemed much more miselim-able around this time than I’d seemed when the thread originally opened and I was active. And this post came during that time. But I think infinity/auro following suit shortly after is probably worse than this. I’ll get to the contrast shortly.

i was guilty of this too, its very hard not to look back in the moment and go "who isn't here, whaat is going on, i have nothing going on who haasn't posted in awhile" and for reads to weaken dull or get forgetten. Much easier when ur just here all the time, i think u know that. Super is more in the moment player so she is going to forget so just keep reminding her when u get back.

My read on fb is that I am unable to read fb and I’m probably going to end up outsourcing this to my team because who the fuck actually knows how to read him? From what I can tell, I think the general site consensus is, and I agree with this, that he is always jokey and sarcastic and whatever chill energy vibes stuff he has going on and I don’t particularly think any of these posts are AI. I have no insight into the difference between his towngames and scumgames because they look the same to me and with the limited amount of mental energy I have, it’s just not worth trying to parse fb when it’s going to require a Herculean amount of effort to get a read that I’m like 1% confident in.

i give content out and when i do i think u can tell the alignment. don't feel like arguing the site consensus because thats pointless.
ive thought about changing my playstyle radically, you know almost not shit posts/ no sarcasm/ just plain straight to the point posting about how to solve the game.
what i got was something i hated. I hated myself, i hated everyone i played with, i was miserable and playing a game. Sure people said i was much more readable but i just didn't like it, i won't ever do thaat again. I will content when i content. end of story if people can't read it. :shrug:

On the one hand I really like this post
On the other I'm frankly shocked that fb has made a content-ful post that I agree with and think is good and am possibly slightly alarmed by it because I don't know that I was expecting to ever see eye-to-eye with fb on mafia things
Some of my team members have agreed that we like fb and we like fb's posts but have no idea what that means for his alignment. same with:

this is what i mean when i see people remember things they want to. If i had to give a rough guess. Id say my content to shitpost is a horrendous 90:10 for every 9 shit posts i put out some content. So when you are bombarded by shit. you won't remember content. We have agreed about mafia things in other games. This is not the first nor the last.

I'm frankly shocked

I appreciate the reply. I'm not like, upset at you because I don't really think it's your fault and obviously you should play in a way that makes you enjoy the game, I'm more just like, complaining about the general masses

*gesticulates wildly*

you know? cause I'm petty and shit

Also tell worstie hi, and datisi i want my hat.

duck says hi warmpuppy! datisi is not on.

[lilith2013]

oh, I don't think my team has been able to keep up with this game I ping them if I have specific requests and that's p much what they can manage given the postcount. I can ask him to read your ISO though.

[lilith2013]

I don't really disagree with the vote itself but super and infinity are both townreading flopz and I'm just like ?????????????????

[lilith2013]

boop?

[lilith2013]

@auro

*ahem*

our good duck is unfortunately waylaid with real life things for the foreseeable future. His Duckness wishes to inform you that he will not be able to read through your ISO unless there is a specific post on which you wish him to opine. He sends his regrets.

[lilith2013]

I'm not opening any vocaroos.

So if you need to communicate anything to me use your words.

sorry @super I kind of agree with this - I can try to listen but tbh reading is much easier for me

[lilith2013]

i think the wagons being all over the place means we're in the ballpark of scum and we're just having trouble consolidating on 1

that means we should all agree on my wagon

I don't really disagree with the vote itself but super and infinity are both townreading flopz and I'm just like ?????????????????

interesting point.

would scum have flopz be the designated deep wolf here?
wait that assumes super is scum or infinity right.

hmm no. Maybe infinity? I am conlicted. Infinity having bad takes doesn't mean scum. Thats just bad

also auro im not sure ready to fight u one by one maybe i just need to recase chenn i don't think i detailed the case to the best of my abilities.

tbh this isn’t where my thoughts were heading at all but I think the points made are even better

[lilith2013]

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark

[lilith2013]

and infinity litearlly uses gut all the time and if him and I are seeing the same things from u then I'm willing to see him as town reaching the same conclusion as me now.

Hi can you explain how you got here from “infinity is so bad their reads are performatjive let’s yeet them already”?

[lilith2013]

Spoiler: super’s 1526

@Lilly

1) Me asking FB which alignment they prefer probably just comes down to my own meta of myself. I personally hate being mafia and love being town so I normally would enter a thread pretty happy as town and I think my general demeanour is a lot happier as town so I was asking FB that question because I found their entry into the thread to be quite negative (continuously saying that they didn’t like black flag etc) so I asked them what alignment they preferred since I was like “maybe they flipped scum and were unhappy” lmao – I guess to me it can be AI for some players, I’ve obviously never played with FB before so I had no meta on how they’d be at all, I was just using what I knew about myself to try and maybe get a read on someone else which may or may not have been a good way to read someone but it was definitely something
2) Your entry into the thread was a lot happier than FB’s entry – I found FB to tone and entry chill but a lot different to yours – you seemed excited, whereas FB was just like “fuck black flag” – very different reads on both of you early on IMO even if they came from a similar tonal category
3) I’m cool with the discrediting response ty for answering that
4) So you’re saying FB is completely unreadable then? Is it bad that I disagree and think every player plays differently as town and scum so there would be ways to read them? I get that they may be like this as scum and town so it’s NAI but I guess I just really do TR them this game and maybe I’m crazy and maybe my read is wrong but I really do feel as though they are town – and perhaps they do play this way as both alignments but I’ve never played with them you have to remember so I’m always going to have a different perspective as you. It’s not just a tonal read I have on FB – there have been posts that I read as super fucking towny. For example their entire reaction to me asking if they were town and their response to that and then them wondering how they should actually respond was sooo towny to me (I could quote the posts if you need reference to where I TR them for you to understand my vibe) – they also brought up a good point about me having them pocketed which I think a thought only town would come up with (it felt incredibly genuine imo) again, I can quote if you need to understand my FB read better
5) I think the reason I lessened my TR on you was because you never outed any actual reads after all the conversing you had done with Auro and so I was like huh? Lily did all that and left? I still thought you could be town (and do think you’re very likely town now btw) but I just wanted to hear what your reads were/thoughts were on people. I think all of your explanations are really good – and it’s fine that you had to go to work and couldn’t go deeper in what you were saying – I definitely don’t just throw a read away like that so easily and am always willing to talk it out later with you
6) The re-evaluation was because it was my first ISO of you and that’s why I was reading deeper into your slot – before that it wasn’t a read where I had fully read all your posts and analysed you properly. Your drop in activity and my read on you makes sense btw considering peta literally told me if you were lurky you were scum so of couse I’mma be wary when you disappear and my partner has mentioned you being a lurky scum to me three times, but it wasn’t the sole reason for my drop in read (I think it was the way to me it didn’t feel like you were genuinely trying to read into AUro and it felt like a pointless back and fourth where you never ended up with a conclusion on it)
7) As I have said my read on FB is very different to my read on you and you shouldn’t be comparing it honestly – their lack of content is different since I can tell they aren’t the type of player top continuously drop reads or ISOs whereas my team said you’d be a lot more active and competent than a player like FB – but anyways I feel like this convo could keep going around in circles about the read dropping lol
8) I wanted to reaction test AL at that point because I had read an earlier post from them which was quite emotional and read to me like they were sick of being scumread (I think I pointed it out in my ISO of them and said I tr them for it cos I defs read into tone/whether someone is being genuine or not too much sometimes) – I had no reason to SR them at that point but I thought I could get a better read on them if I voted them and pushed them a little even if my reasoning was obviously a reaction test which AL kinda noticed anyways – I honestly backed off cos I wasn’t really sure how their reaction was, it wasn’t bad or anything… I did kinda like their explanation of being nervous kinda/? But idk, I still think there is a good chance AL could maybe be scum this game
9) I haven’t really thought about the resistance? Idk it’s d1 and it’s a really long d1 and I honestly just want to see a flip at this point. I don’t think people have been that in unision I just think people haven’t been here lmao – the most active people are like me, koba, FB, autumn, auro, chen and sometimes you now so idk I can see why the game has felt super in unison cos some players haven’t really been here to be pushed on or read into (I have no idea what Johnny’s slot remotely is, every time Flopz is here I can’t properly 1 on 1 engage cos I am busy and Amy has barely said a thing and you haven’t had the time either) – I would be making more pushes if I felt like I had a proper reason to be pushing is what I’m saying and now I’m pushing someone and getting flack for it so fucking yolo

Here are the issues I have with your approach to fb / me:
- peta’s never played with town!me, in fact I think he’s only played with me once, and I haven’t played any games with the rest of your team, so who or what is giving you the idea that I’m “supposed” to be active/competent?
———sidenote I really dislike that I’m being BoPed here because like, I should be able to have a towngame where I can’t be as active as I typically am and not get immediately scumread for it. And I did mention being really busy with work in early posts. Come

on

. I don’t think peta even knows me well enough to know what my typical towngame is like anyway, so this line of reasoning just feels gross
- when peta lists meta on me you listen (if I lurk I’m scum) but when he lists meta on fb you don’t (the tone in fb’s posts is NAI)? “I’ve never played with these people so I will closely follow the reads given to me by my team on one person but don’t care that they’re saying the other person’s posts are NAI, I’m going to read them however I want!” How does this make sense? in fact I’d venture to guess that peta is, if anything,

more

familiar with fire’s meta than he is with mine, yet you chose not to take his word for fire but have listened to him on me
- in essence I feel like you’re basically picking and choosing your reads here, and it

just so happened

to coincide with a point in the game where I would have looked more achievable of a miselim than before

[lilith2013]

re: reading fire

I think he can seem very towny as both alignments, in both tone and content. I, and I expect many others on this site, have been burned (ha) by assuming what we think would be town coming from anyone else applies to him. I do not trust my read of him. I do not trust your read of him. I will probably not trust any read of him until he is dead (but am not particularly interested in making that happen). Is he readable? yeah, probably. I don’t know how to though.

[lilith2013]

re: reading fire

I think he can seem very towny as both alignments, in both tone and content. I, and I expect many others on this site, have been burned (ha) by assuming what we think would be town coming from anyone else applies to him. I do not trust my read of him. I do not trust your read of him. I will probably not trust any read of him until he is dead (but am not particularly interested in making that happen). Is he readable? yeah, probably. I don’t know how to though.

And I really don’t know that I expect you to be able to read him.

[lilith2013]

MENA!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Lili!!!! So excited to be rolling scum

with

against you for once!!!

ftfy

[lilith2013]

please explain reads/order ty

[lilith2013]

/shrug

[lilith2013]

gun to head I think he’s town but I have nothing to back up my read. My teammates like his posts, I like his posts, I have no idea what that means for his alignment.

[lilith2013]

I have thoughts on that that I don’t think are super relevant at the moment but I’ll bring it up later probably

[lilith2013]

personally I think each of my walls should count for an additional 10-20 posts

[lilith2013]

chennis do you have recent reads you can share please

[lilith2013]

That kind of shook my view of both slots really hard and made me question if I was really paying enough attention to the game.

What does that mean for auro/super alignments?

[lilith2013]

good news guys, I have 0 remaining townreads

[lilith2013]

paranoia hit hard. I haven’t had time to parse all the long posts probably.

[lilith2013]

oops - probably won’t be able to for a while

[lilith2013]

Lili how would you feel about voting for infinity?

Stance on infinity: probscum, I don’t like his posts, but consolidation on infinity feels way too easy

[lilith2013]

Why is Auro a keystone slot to you?

[lilith2013]

mena do you think koba is town

[lilith2013]

I honestly cry a bit at every flopz post and if he’s town, I’m struggling to see why

n o o n e

is pushing him

[lilith2013]

here is this juicy LHF screaming for scum to get an easy miselim, oh yes, but instead they go for (mena??? super?????)

what is this gamestate

[lilith2013]

here is this juicy LHF screaming for scum to get an easy miselim, oh yes, but instead they go for (mena??? super?????)

what is this gamestate

i don't see it. how is flopz low hanging fruit

low charisma, low aggressiveness, low thread presence, low content level -> easy miselim

[lilith2013]

can someone explain why amp is scummy cuz their entrance reads were beefy and that kinda player usually sorts itself in tbe long run
also i think chenn is also possible scum and i wanna addess that when im a few drinks in

what about her reads were "beefy"? imo they were pretty vague and could easily be faked. Is there anything specifically in her readslist that felt towny to you?

@koba can you please respond to this

[lilith2013]

I assumed I did not have to answer if I was not townreading infinity

[lilith2013]

at this point I honestly might scumcase the whole plist and see which one feels least awful

[lilith2013]

lilith i think ur infected. infected by audit season. Maybe its disrupting thoughts or something cause im kind of surprised you have zero townreads.

yeah i have to go back to work ._. idk. things feel very wrong

[lilith2013]

Lili how would you feel about voting for infinity?

Stance on infinity: probscum, I don’t like his posts, but consolidation on infinity feels way too easy

I already said this though

quite frankly if a post has been made since I went to sleep that is longer than two sentences, I haven’t parsed it yet

[lilith2013]

no

[lilith2013]

I’ll save you the energy of trying to convince me and quote this for you

Spoiler:

its nearly post 1000 and u dont have a signle person who has pinged u as scummy that u wanna pursue better?

I don't feel comfortable voting until I'm up to date on reads and gamestate. don't really care what you think and I'm not going to make up bullshit reads to make myself look townier and I'm also not going to vote someone without a specific reason.

not prepared to vote until I have reads, sorry

Why are votes for pressure a bad thing? So you would've said this regardless of who I would ask to vote for?

I was always going to answer no, but wanted to see what your reason would be.

What is pressure voting amy going to do while she's not in the thread? Do you think it'll suddenly make her appear?

What is pressure voting amy going to do while she's not in the thread? Do you think it'll suddenly make her appear?

No but it could cause her teammates to react if scum, so...

I don't specifically recall that you only vote when you have specific reasons, can you cite that from any prior game if possible?

?? okay, I mean the reason can be as stupid as "I felt like it," but I'll humor you:

Subject: Micro 939 - Zoey's Extraordinary Mafia - Game over

(2) MariaR -lilith, Knightmare

Currently thinking scum is in {knightmare, cakes, ceejay}

Why keep your vote on maria then?

I haven’t found a person I want to vote seriously yet

And yet there you were willing to switch your RVS vote to wagon Maria a few posts earlier...

the reason can be as stupid as "I felt like it,"

not sure where you're trying to go with this. do you think I'm lying about not wanting to vote unless I have a reason that makes me want to vote?

I'm trying to understand the hesitation to leave a vote in play for wagoning someone as a non-serious vote.

I just don’t like voting someone unless I personally want to vote them. I’m a contrarian. As soon as someone asks or tells me to do something, my whole body screams NO even if the thing requested is perfectly reasomable, benefits me personally, or even was a thing I wanted to do on my own prior to being asked

pedit: both of you asking me to vote makes me want to not vote even more

[lilith2013]

Like I think your thing about consolidation is kinda unfounded when it’s proving this hard to get infinity even 3 votes

I think I have this feeling because of the first infinity wagon which did feel too easy

[lilith2013]

infinity, what would you say your degree of confidence is on super vs mena? can you articulate any differences between the two reads?

[lilith2013]

Can you describe what “him usually obvtowning when pushed on” looks like and how he’s different here?

[lilith2013]

Also what about his reads seemed fake to you?

[lilith2013]

I like Mena. I don't wanna lim there.

I'd be down for a chenny or super vote, or koba if you twisted my arm.

Johnny can you explain your reads on chennis/super/koba?

[lilith2013]

mena - can you explain to me why you had super as your strongest townread and fb as your strongest scumread but haven’t tried to convince her that fb is scum?

[lilith2013]

*crickets*

okay guess this is my cue to resume work

[lilith2013]

has he? I must have missed it among all the thread vomit

[lilith2013]

appropriate pagebottom i think

[lilith2013]

weirdly I think fb is the leading wagon with a whopping 4 votes

[lilith2013]

Like I think your thing about consolidation is kinda unfounded when it’s proving this hard to get infinity even 3 votes

I think I have this feeling because of the first infinity wagon which did feel too easy

You mean the other one that never got above 3 votes?

there were like 5 people in the thread and it seemed like everyone except me was jumping on him at the same time

[lilith2013]

I’m not against an infinity wagon if I come to the conclusion of scumreading him but I have to get there on my own

[lilith2013]

oh our most recent vc is probably very many pages ago

[lilith2013]

won’t happen for a while I’m still working. would probably go faster if I wasn’t checking ms but impulse control am I right

[lilith2013]

that is a horrible proposition, why are you offering up your strongest townread for elimination

[lilith2013]

what are you gleaning from the chaos, auro?

[lilith2013]

can someone explain why amp is scummy cuz their entrance reads were beefy and that kinda player usually sorts itself in tbe long run
also i think chenn is also possible scum and i wanna addess that when im a few drinks in

what about her reads were "beefy"? imo they were pretty vague and could easily be faked. Is there anything specifically in her readslist that felt towny to you?

@koba can you please respond to this

[lilith2013]

and infinity litearlly uses gut all the time and if him and I are seeing the same things from u then I'm willing to see him as town reaching the same conclusion as me now.

Hi can you explain how you got here from “infinity is so bad their reads are performatjive let’s yeet them already”?

[lilith2013]

auro do you have a read on me?

everyone's reads on me now feel lazy, I think I efforted too hard and now I have no one to yell at for not townreading me properly

[lilith2013]

wtf have I done

[lilith2013]

w o w

[lilith2013]

@mena I think it bears repeating that I'm working probably 12-15 hour days 6 days a week right now and have zero mental energy to parse anything like what you and infinity posted at each other today. I will get to it when I have time/brainpower. once I feel comfortable actually being in a place in this game I will, like, put myself on a wagon or add my momentum somewhere. telling me to blindly sheep isn't going to convince me to do anything. sorry if you feel frustrated but like that is not who I am. I'll stop there.

@auro see above. no.

for what it's worth I have been working on multiple theories of why this game is turning out the way it is but again, minimal brainpower available.

[lilith2013]

actually, no, I think this is also worth saying:

you've just told me that I'm not someone you can successfully work with but tbh I feel like you've just expected me to say "okay!" and cave and do whatever you want - and you're more interested in making what

you

want happen than in actually working together. and that's representative of your entire attitude this game. you're not the town leader just because you said so. if you actually want me/people to work with you then you can't demand everyone obey and expect that we will.

[lilith2013]

ok

[lilith2013]

I’m allergic to cooked pineapple so I can’t have pineapple pizza even if I wanted to

[lilith2013]

to try to collect some of my thoughts into coherent sentences:

I don’t think it’s fair for mena to take potshots at people who aren’t doing what he wants. I saw he apologized but I feel like his post was supposed to make me feel guilty that I wasn’t trying hard enough to please him or something. I really dislike feeling guilt tripped.

[lilith2013]

whats ur favorite pizza lilith

I’m an unapologetic meat eater. ideal pizza is extra cheese, pepperoni, salami, bacon, jalapenos

[lilith2013]

There must be more jalapenos than anything else combined. including dough

[lilith2013]

to people who keep discussing my lack of reads

I think it bears repeating that I'm working probably 12-15 hour days 6 days a week right now and have zero mental energy to parse anything like what you and infinity posted at each other today. I will get to it when I have time/brainpower. once I feel comfortable actually being in a place in this game I will, like, put myself on a wagon or add my momentum somewhere.

my lack of reads is NOT going to change until I get the time and mental capacity to actually read and understand all the shit that’s happened in thread

if you keep bringing it up I’ll keep quoting this post

ffs if I knew I would

still

be getting called out for this I wouldn’t have spent 8 fucking hours on monday writing 5k words because I could have just

not

done that and be in the exact same position as I am now

[lilith2013]

@koba:

and infinity litearlly uses gut all the time and if him and I are seeing the same things from u then I'm willing to see him as town reaching the same conclusion as me now.

Hi can you explain how you got here from “infinity is so bad their reads are performatjive let’s yeet them already”?

can someone explain why amp is scummy cuz their entrance reads were beefy and that kinda player usually sorts itself in tbe long run
also i think chenn is also possible scum and i wanna addess that when im a few drinks in

what about her reads were "beefy"? imo they were pretty vague and could easily be faked. Is there anything specifically in her readslist that felt towny to you?

@koba can you please respond to this

[lilith2013]

as for why I’m not townreading mena from his entrance,

effort /= alignment!!! activity /= alignment!!!

I believe it’s fully within mena’s scumrange to enter a game with a high level of energy and hype, and I also think that’s probably general consensus on site

[lilith2013]

until I’m able to thoroughly pick apart his posts I don’t trust a tone read there

[lilith2013]

also l m a o at super

still

saying I’m less towny than fire, mena, and koba

@super the reason I dropped the argument was because I don’t think I’m ever going to get what I’m looking for, which is an admission that you treating me and fb differently was wrong. Either you’re town and believe in your reads, or you’re scum and (given the extent of the back-and-forth so far) are willing/able to keep twisting your reasoning to justify it. Inefficient use of my brainpower if I know I’m never going to get what I want out of it.