TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

Thanks. I’ll start reading through in a bit.

[Luca Blight]

I've just blasted through 40 pages. That'll do for Today.

It seems a pretty cagey game. Goofball is my biggest TR atm. Hopkirk and Poka seemed Townie early on. I TL Dannflor and Mastina.

Biggest SR at this stage is probably IV, based on gut mostly. I'll try to finish catching-up Tomorrow.

[Luca Blight]

I replaced hercule

[Luca Blight]

I’m up to page 61. I’ll try and finish my catch-up today.

[Luca Blight]

I’m up to page 61. I’ll try and finish my catch-up today.

I'm not sure what we needed from you was to read the

entire

game but it's commendable

I read the first half of the game quite closely, but have skimmed most of it since then tbh.

I've now roughly caught up.

[Luca Blight]

I still think all of Goofball, Mastina and Dannflor are Town. I don't have much else right now tbh. I'll start Iso'ing the people being wagoned.

[Luca Blight]

I still think all of Goofball, Mastina and Dannflor are Town. I don't have much else right now tbh. I'll start Iso'ing the people being wagoned.

This is underwhelming.

I'm well aware, thanks.

It takes me a while to get a feel for games that I replace into, and no-one this game stands out as being particularly scummy. It's going to take more than a skim-through to solidify my reads.

[Luca Blight]

Not very closely.

Petapan agrees with my Goofball TR, and thought Lamb was scum earlier, but hasn't been keeping track too much.

[Luca Blight]

I never said I hard SR you.

Your tone feels Townie but there were a few things that pinged me, that I'm struggling to even remember rn. I'll do some ISO'ing to refresh my memory.

[Luca Blight]

Just going through your ISO now and I'll quote a few bits that stand out.

the more i read the more im thinking im the idiot here for not grasping what you are saying and that we might be talking past each other on hercule's 1st post

I've read hercule's 2nd post and I don't get the "fucking awful" vibes that you are getting from it. He probably didn't prewrite the 2nd post so that's why it seems improvisational and I think it's fine if it references his voice reaction from 12h ago or whatever?

idk, im pretty mixed on hercule especially now that everyone is shading them but it's not like, unexpected shade to me given his posting style i guess

This, and the posts prior where you seemed to be defending my slot, but which culminates with fence-sitting felt a little performative (a new word I learned). It's exactly the sort of thing I could see scum doing to look good/productive while not really committing themselves or doing anything significant.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: hercule fair

see, i kind of don't think hercule does like the exact same shit he did in the first game (immediate lamisty self-arguments and suggestions for why he should be conftown) but with a slightly different tone unless he's thinking on like level 3? but maybe he just is like, thinking on level 3 here

fwiw i think lld and mastina are my top townleans

And here you vote my slot while seeming to say you think it's more likely it's Town, but it's

possible

my slot could be scum?

It's as though you've allowed yourself to be talked into the vote, in order to look as though you're being fair and open minded about it.

[Luca Blight]

This vote seems opportunistic to me, given the wagon on tw at the time and that you had barely mentioned his slot before this.

the worst has requested replacement; searching for a replacement.

VOTE: the worst

[Luca Blight]

Although you soon jump back off, which redeems it a bit I guess.

VOTE: Titus teehee

I still don't really understand the purpose of tw vote.

[Luca Blight]

So yeah, to sum up: IV seems Townie based on tone for the most part. His interactions feel natural, but I can't really point to anything content-wise that strikes me as particularly Townie, and there are a few scummy bits in there. Some of it could be down to play style, as he seems to be a naturally cautious player.

I'll ISO Lady Lamb next.

[Luca Blight]

I don't think Lamb's early pressure on my slot is that bad. I can understand why she didn't like Hercule's second post.

Honestly can I ever play a game with Mastina where she doesn't scum read me?

Look, you want to kill me? Burden of Proficiency me. Give me one day to decide who dies, and if they flip town, kill me.

But never listen to the worst player in this game who has an actual 0 % read record on me.

The number of town games I have played where Mastina has literally called me scum for every day in them and then oops we're both town

is fucking why I refuse to engage with her and eliminate her reads in reverse, tbh

I find it strange how quick she is to read Mastina as 'bad town' rather than possible scum here. The whole BoP offer is a bit performative, as she must have realised that would never be agreed to.

[Luca Blight]

679 makes for difficult reading. For some reason I get townvibes from it. She's apparently such a good scum player though that it's making me doubt any town!ping I get from her posts.

[Luca Blight]

2191 - I was TR'ing Lady Lamb up until this point, but she's lost me here. I could buy her conviction on pushing my slot, and later the Xtoxm slot, but this all or nothing push against Mastina feels more like scum frustration at being continually scumread. I don't see a compelling reason to suddenly flip her Mastina read in such a dramatic fashion.

[Luca Blight]

LLD hates being scum read tho

I don't understand how she flips her townread on Mastina to a hard scumread based on the reasoning in 2257. It seems to me like they're arguing over semantics?

[Luca Blight]

This:

I read the first half of the game quite closely, but have skimmed most of it since then tbh.

does not square with

this:

It's going to take more than a skim-through to solidify my reads.

And definitely not with having three charmin townreads and no scumreads.

Actually, it does.

[Luca Blight]

Those were my only confident reads after about 43 pages or so, yes. I acquire reads better through ISO'ing, which is what I'm doing now.

I'm glad you find it amusing, anyway.

[Luca Blight]

By half way through the game your contribution was:

LLD can be Toiwn
I like IV's posting
Ceph's posting is looser
I kinds lika Xtoxm's hostility
Leaning towards Hercule

And that was you playing in real time, not catching up on 80+ pages, so pipe down.

[Luca Blight]

It's a culmination of TW being low hanging fruit and then replacing

I really don't get this part.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Ythan

I feel as though he's coasting on his Lady Lamb vote while having Poka as his main SR, but not really pushing it or doing anything at all. I don't see any progression or reasoning behind his thoughts or reads.

[Luca Blight]

The more I mull it over the more I think Lady Lamb is likely Town.

[Luca Blight]

So, my question is how do I fix LLD v DGB when LLD is largely checked out...

Hmm

VOTE: the worst

Mastina, help me bus worst.

mastina's scum with TW. The moment I ask her to lim a scumread, she backs off the scumread.

Her walls are IioA, especially 1905. Her "content" gives nothing verifiable. She just states someone is scum and then states their actions are scummy. She's trying to create a t v t atmosphere and people like dgb are eating it up.

Mastina and the worst are scums.

Ceph is right about game health though.

This push seems dishonest.

Mastina SR's Titus more than tw, and had said so before this sudden push from Titus. It's understandable that when a bigger scumread of yours votes a lesser scumread, you're not going to be massively enthused about also joining that wagon right there and then. This seemed a bit manipulative, as though designed to make Mastina look bad more than anything.

[Luca Blight]

IV has become a TR of mine. His sorting of Ythan seemed genuine.

[Luca Blight]

Sorry hop i dont want to answer ur questions do i have to

Bell we have 2 days left. Nobody wants to flip ceph.

Okay, why is Ythan scum? As either alignment they seem to have little feelings of obligation toward their team. I don't see anything.

I don't like how he waited until he was wagoned to start voting his biggest SR. I think as Town he would have been pushing it already, but as scum didn't want to rock the boat unnecessarily and felt comfy on the Lady Lamb wagon.

[Luca Blight]

IV - in what world is evidence that runs counter to what you have asserted thus far not "things going wrong"?

hmm, at the time i interpreted "things going wrong" as very strong wording. it's also possible the way mastina framed it at the time in 2291 i felt like it was very strong (e.g. a big claim, flips, etc. is what come to mind for me); as a town player I will reassess and bounce around even if none of those happen.

And I believe town!Titus is that kind of player too from my limited experience with her. Her processes felt more substantiated in games I remember with her whereas here it does feel a bit more mechanical/blanket-assertiony without as much reasoning. I am honestly kind of at a loss for her confidence level on what's happening in this gamestate for the amount of content she's put out, especially coming from a player who tends in excel more in the lategame. If this is some sort of a style-change then maybe that would nullify this read of her a bit, idk. In a confirmation-biased way it almost feels like she's planning on parking her solve for now and setting up for her theory to be wrong, or justification to continue pushing her theory (which one would obviously depend on if the flip was consistent with her "theory" or not)

I get that mastina is not popular for some of you all this game but I think scum are going to double down on blanket-discrediting mastina and that's what I'm seeing from Titus and it's giving me a weird vibe

I'm also just not seeing the whole "mastina is spamming and manipulating the gamestate so she's scum!" thing at all that I believe Titus is proposing

I could be wrong on any of those fronts for sure but that's probably the crux of my gut-scumlean on her rn

Good post, I agree with most of this.

[Luca Blight]

I get that mastina is not popular for some of you all this game but I think scum are going to double down on blanket-discrediting mastina and that's what I'm seeing from Titus and it's giving me a weird vibe

I think you're putting too much faith into mastina and blindly following her off of a cliff.

Um... not what was said by even a mile?

[Luca Blight]

I'm getting Townie vibes from Poka in 2546

[Luca Blight]

For cephrir yeah,
too many posts 'not giving a shit because I rolled town this game'
and I hate mastina posting posts.

It just feels like someone grasping at something to talk about and deciding to present themselves a certain way.

I'm not really vibing with this.

I get what you're saying, but it feels like an insignificant thing to push an elim for at this stage. Ceph's posting has generally felt Townie to me.

[Luca Blight]

I got nothing on Ythan.
They refuse to answer the questions I would usually ask to get a read on them and calling it spoon feeding.
At least the owl had reads and eventually gave in and spoon fed me.

These are the slots that need sorting sooner rather than later.

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

My thoughts:

I like Dannflor's posts. I don't know if he posts in a way that I'd find different if he were scum. He feels good

Cephrir feels ok. Last game I was actually suspicious of him but didn't like how the wagon was forming around what seemed to be his thoughts of Mastina, this game I'm not really, except that he sometimes reverts to feeling unhelpful sometimes

Okapoka, I don't think he's that bad this game, or that different. He's just not as towny this go around which raises some eyebrows

Agar is towny, people just don't like his playstyle/posting style. Most people probably skim past his posts.

This feels like town Mastina due to the amount of energy she's able to put into whatever she is doing here, and she somehow feels different when she's scum, like she's acting in bad faith rather than just being tunneled

Xtoxm feels tonally different from the last game to a degree where they feel town this time. I think their push on lld is questionable given the reasons they laid out being, in my opinion, bad, especially when they showed they're able to case someone

The way Innocent Villager is treating me is weird. I thought they were fine but writing this out I think most of their posting is nullish and they deserve more scrutiny.

Hopkirk, I don't really know, one of my teammates thinks he's town. I don't find the case against him convincing, which leaves him at null but not towny

Winter Flakes is indeed blending into the background, and I'm also forgetting that they're in this game. I feel like last game they were a lot more involved.

Titus goes between towny and scummy. I like some of her posts, tonally, others not so much.

Ythan should probably get more scrutiny from me, he isn't doing anything, he's capable of doing stuff, he's being unhelpful for some reason. I don't have strong feelings about this flipping scum.

LLD - I think the case against them is garbage, which has been brought up several times but plowed through. I don't find them particularly towny though. I'm trying to work with them here. DGB is easily the scummier of the two which is why I'm not voting on LLD.

DGB is really scummy and different from last game. Numerous people have listed them as a strong townread but I don't think that has ever been well substantiated beyond LLD being scum (what if LLD isn't scum?). Why can't DGB and LLD both be scum anyway? That feels more likely that just LLD being scum to me

Luca Blight - Hercule was alright, I think. I don't have an opinion on what Luca has done

Bell - Predecessor felt kind of scummy, Bell feels kind of scummy

jjh927 isn't doing much, but at least he can point back to posts and his train of thought can be followed.

Almost50 is vaguely towny but I don't remember anything he's posted int he last week or so.

That seems a lot of words for very little content.

[Luca Blight]

an aside before i forget

@Luca, DGB

im curious if either of you have impressions about Titus's play here since you both just finished a Large Normal with her (LN 231)?

I'm agreeing with her general reads/thoughts a lot more than I did in that game, where I misread her as being scum. Her (imo misplaced) confidence in Mastina being scum seems similar to some of her pushes in the previous game.

[Luca Blight]

DGB has felt strongly Town to me all game.

I'm gonna be busy for a few hours but I'll ISO them again later.

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

auro's opinion on hercule talking about his scum playstyle is that it's town indicitive
he says that scum can steal a march on a possible question about it by posting in this way, but that it would be unnecessary to go into such depth
herc believes that he will be able to earn townreads from the way he plays, which, if scum, would require confidence on hercs part that he can both make a substantial change in the way plays scum, and also get townread doing it
he also thinks scum herc would know such a play is unlikely to repay him well

he criticizes llds push on hercs 2nd post, saying repeated attacks have been made but no explanation of why it is scum indicative
why scum, as opposed to exhilarated town? does she expect the hercule is disingenuous in his belief that his team has players that are strong in town roles?

he is confused at the number of people treating mastina in an insulting way, and notes that he has mastina as locktown (????)
feels that agar reacted disproportionately to mastina calling him null, however he's not sure if it's alignment indicitive

at this point he offers a readslist:
town: mastina, hercule, iv, ceph
scum: agar, lld, dgb

his stomach feeling on a50 is scum. i've told him that i veto any d1 a50 vote wishes he has.

I don't like:

• The read on herc is super convoluted, it goes back and forth and I don't understand why auro leans town on it. His approach isn't commonly seen, and personally I am unable to ascribe a lean in any direction, I fail to comprehend how anyone can feel so strongly about it.
  
• Scumreading LLD for her aggressive scum read of hercule without considering that an aggressive town read is just as bizarre.
  
• Completely unexplained scum read on me (also I know it's wrong, so there's that).

I like:

• Scumreading LLD for her aggressive scum read of hercule is a reasonable position to take in isolation.
  
• Noticing AGar flinching when poked with a null read.

Xtoxm, please ask your other team members for reads while the game is still young and it won't take them an eternity.

I feel like Goofball was being genuinely solvey here without trying to push an agenda.

Spoiler:

This pains me but I cannot shake off the scum read.

VOTE: InnocentVillager

I’m kidding I actually appreciate it

DGB why does that pain you

IV is so much fun to collaborate with when he's town and I don't think it's gonna happen here.

I really vibed with this early IV scumread, and I felt the emotion was genuine.

A50 is such a nervous scum wreck.

I'm a little curious on Goofball's progression on A50, who Goofball TR, then SR, then null read without much in the way of explanation.

Spoiler:

The scum have dispersed and divided themselves among hercule and myself, perhaps others.

@Titus

- I totally agree with your IV vote, but we only have one yeet today.

@Dannflor

- I totally agree with your chicken vote, but we only have one yeet today.

@AGar

- You're not voting but we really need you. I beg you, help us.

@jjh927, Winter Flakes

- While the worst if VLA, he certainly deserves examination. A lot of the small wagons are on very scummy players. the worst won't last long and you'll be vindicated eventually, but this wagon isn't happening today. I know you're town. Please help.

A50

- You like to march to your own drum, can you make an exception today and cooperate?

Townies, it's nearly impossible to yeet a scum that their buddy are loathe to sacrifice because of their high value, especially on Day 1 - we need a consensus among so many people. Scum will gladly help a yeet a low value partner for towncred, but here they have decided to defend LLD with their teeth.

But we can do this. We can hit a high value scum on Day 1.

We can

fight back

against the derailment.

A high value scum means a high value yeet for town. Imagine how well positioned we will be without LLD!scum to disrupt our scum hunting.

WE. CAN. DO. THIS.

TOGETHER.

This call to action felt super Townie to me. Goofball is identifying who he believes are fellow Town members and trying to create a sense organization and unity.

Spoiler:

My LLD scumread is not in a vacuum.

I know I am terse, and I don't usually wall post. So let me try a little harder to convince you all.

• You can see in the posts above (viewtopic.php?p=12572656#p12572656), in real time, how I viewed LLD's blustery game start totally discrediting mastina as scummy. It could have been good-natured ribbing, which I considered, but LLD came in like a sledgehammer. LLD made a full series of posts trying to de-fang mastina's future scumhunting. I detected a hint of trying to demoralize her. LLD tends to be over the top, but this was over the top even for her:
  viewtopic.php?p=12559295#p12559295
  viewtopic.php?p=12559296#p12559296
  viewtopic.php?p=12559301#p12559301
  These posts are LLD pre-emptively, and aggressively neutralizing mastina.

• If I had any doubt that LLD wanted to neutralize mastina, these doubts vanished when LLD literally voted hercule to put her money where her mouth is, so to speak. Then LLD makes a case on hercule after deciding that using mastina as an
  absolute compass
  to solve the game (even if in reverse). At the time of LLD's case, I wasn't sure about hercule's entry post, she might have had a point, but later I began to town read hercule and I saw it from a different perspective.

• Now, I know I'm not going to convince anyone but myself with how I found LLD's scum ego post scummy, but to be transparent in my thinking, I found it scummy in the context of the neutralization of mastina, and based on mastina's supposed bad reads, manufacturing a case on hercule off the cuff. It was a huge wall of manipulation that didn't come from a townie mindset.

• I found the rage/anger/AtE to be hollow and insincere (that's a matter of personal interpretation, I realize). I usually respond to AtE, I am one of the site's biggest sucker for AtE. So, AtE has to be pretty bad not to move me. LLD's AtE left me completely cold, which is astonishing.

• Now she's strategically lurking as her scumpals manufacture a counterwagon on her attacker.

I don't 100% buy this case, but I can see why Goofball thinks the 'neutralization' of Mastina could be a genuine scum strategy.

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

IV - in what world is evidence that runs counter to what you have asserted thus far not "things going wrong"?

hmm, at the time i interpreted "things going wrong" as very strong wording. it's also possible the way mastina framed it at the time in 2291 i felt like it was very strong (e.g. a big claim, flips, etc. is what come to mind for me); as a town player I will reassess and bounce around even if none of those happen.

And I believe town!Titus is that kind of player too from my limited experience with her. Her processes felt more substantiated in games I remember with her whereas here it does feel a bit more mechanical/blanket-assertiony without as much reasoning. I am honestly kind of at a loss for her confidence level on what's happening in this gamestate for the amount of content she's put out, especially coming from a player who tends in excel more in the lategame. If this is some sort of a style-change then maybe that would nullify this read of her a bit, idk. In a confirmation-biased way it almost feels like she's planning on parking her solve for now and setting up for her theory to be wrong, or justification to continue pushing her theory (which one would obviously depend on if the flip was consistent with her "theory" or not)

I get that mastina is not popular for some of you all this game but I think scum are going to double down on blanket-discrediting mastina and that's what I'm seeing from Titus and it's giving me a weird vibe

I'm also just not seeing the whole "mastina is spamming and manipulating the gamestate so she's scum!" thing at all that I believe Titus is proposing

I could be wrong on any of those fronts for sure but that's probably the crux of my gut-scumlean on her rn

Good post, I agree with most of this.

an aside before i forget

@Luca, DGB

im curious if either of you have impressions about Titus's play here since you both just finished a Large Normal with her (LN 231)?

I'm agreeing with her general reads/thoughts a lot more than I did in that game, where I misread her as being scum. Her (imo misplaced) confidence in Mastina being scum seems similar to some of her pushes in the previous game.

wait sorry now i'm a bit confused because it seems like you agreed with some of my reasoning to SL Titus earlier (part of it being I think this is dissimilar to her early towngame)? and here you're saying you're seeing a lot of similarities to her [early?] towngame?

can you describe what you agree with/don't?

I agree that scum could be trying to discredit Mastina. I agree that Titus has way too much confidence in her Mastina SR, based on her reasoning.

I don't know Titus' scum game, but her game/reads so far seems better/more accurate (which is not necessarily more townie) than in the previous game, and her push against Mastina is somewhat similar to a push Titus made against a Townie in the previous game, although that occurred later on into the game.

Long and short of it is, I don't have enough info to reliably meta-read Titus and I think her actions this game have been independently scummy.

[Luca Blight]

@Luca, wrt DGB, i think (could be mistaken?) ironically it's things like this that are fueling the dgb case? (specifically 1574 and 1510)

people are complaining about LLD pushing an agenda when it didn't last town game, lol

I think people are comparing this game to the last game too much.

Goofball was pretty strong with their pushes in the game we were just in together.

[Luca Blight]

What happened to the Ythan wagon again?

[Luca Blight]

I'd be willing to vote Titus if you're up for it? I'm also not a fan of either of the main wagons.

The fact people are resisting a Titus wagon while willing to wagon Goofball for BS reasons should be a red flag in of itself.

[Luca Blight]

Also petapan (who apparently has some experience with Goofball) is confident they're Town as well.

[Luca Blight]

Lady Lambdadelta

(6): DrippingGoofball, Xtoxm, mastina, Hopkirk, Ythan, jjh927

DrippingGoofball

(6): Dunnstral, Cephrir, OkaPoka, Dannflor, Lady Lambdadelta, innocentvillager

Ythan

(4): Luca Blight, Titus, AGar, Bell

Bell

(1): Winter Flakes

OkaPoka

(1): Almost50

Just making some guesses about the purity of these wagons, the Ythan wagon doesn't look great right now tbh. I'm leaning slightly Town on AGar, but I'm not sure about Bell and I SR Titus.

The Lamb wagon ends with Hopkirk, Ythan and jjh927. I could definitely see scum existing in that group.

I'll admit the Goofball wagon looks fairly pure by comparison.

[Luca Blight]

It doesn't make me feel good seeing two of the players I'm not sure about on vanity wagons at this stage.

[Luca Blight]

This post coming from this player is :chef's kiss:

I thought the same earlier when you of all people laughed at my lack of reads despite having offered less than anyone else in the game yourself. Your posts since then have improved, but you're clearly as much of a slow starter as I am, but seem to lack awareness of this.

[Luca Blight]

I don't know Titus' scum game, but her game/reads so far seems better/more accurate (which is not necessarily more townie) than in the previous game, and her push against Mastina is somewhat similar to a push Titus made against a Townie in the previous game, although that occurred later on into the game.

i reread this again and realized i want more

how do you know they're "better/more accurate" this game...?

how does her push against mastina feel similar to a push she made on townie in the other game?

I don't know, but it feels that way to me. Titus' views on the previous game seemed so backwards that I couldn't relate to them at all, and in the end she was wrong on most of her reads as I had expected. Here, apart from her Mastina read, I agree with a number of her thoughts and reads.

The push was similar in the sense that she was way too confident based on flawed reasoning.

[Luca Blight]

My read on Bell is improving.

Also, where did this come from

Because I can't think it came from Bell directly

It did. Scum!Bell doesn't try at all here. No need for him to.

This is a very shallow read. I don't get the feeling that Bell is trying

that

hard. As scum he'd probably be worried about being flashwagoned if he didn't do anything.

[Luca Blight]

I could hyper wagon IV if 10 people agreed to it, otherwise if you think I'm town, you need to be voting DGB.

I'm not vibing with this. IV has been genuinely invested in the outcome of this elim on a level that I think would be hard to fake as scum.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Lady Lambdadelta

I don't really like her recent posts which makes me feel a little better about this.

Think that's E-2

[Luca Blight]

Well I'm going to sleep soon and won't be back for deadline

[Luca Blight]

I’ve just woken up, I’ll catch-up in an hour or so.

[Luca Blight]

Luca Blight: Luca Blight himself has had some good comments, and some bad comments.

At the end of the day, he voted for LLD for some reason despite talking abotu DGB earlier

, and as LLD put it there were reasons for finding Hercule scummy that didn't go away. The slot I'm least sure of in black hole tier, so I put it at the end, but I do believe it needs to go sooner rather than later.

DGB was my biggest TR, what are you talking about?

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: mastina

Case me or die. I want to have this out. I may not respond right away but I want you solved. No more vague meta statements. If I am wrong on you, I should be able to see you having genuine logic here, even if wrong.

This feels like Titus knows a case on her in incoming and she's trying to preemptively discredit it.

Fuck it.

VOTE: Ythan

We still need that case from Mastina.

If she is so convinced and passionate about her Mastina read then I don't get why she is compromising already, especially after what ended up happening on D1 where most people compromised on wagons they weren't particularly keen on.

VOTE: Titus

[Luca Blight]

@Luca, mastina has been promising that case for what feels like weeks now. Of course I expect it.

Second, my vote on Ythan is not a compromise at all. I have reasons to scumread him.

I get that, but given Mastina's biggest SR just flipped Town it's quite possible her reads/view of the game may have altered somewhat, but instead of considering that it feels like you're gearing up for fight or flight mode.

What are your reasons for SR'ing Ythan?

meh

luca be honest how much of d1 did you read

I said before that I read up until page 43 quite closely before burning out and skimming until page 80 or so.

[Luca Blight]

@Luca, mastina changes her mind as often as gravity reverses itself. Rare but it does happen. When it does, she needs evidence. If she's town, I'd have it.

Based on your taking things out of context, I am thinking you might be scum. You most certainly are if mastina is town.

The context being meta? Which makes no sense, given I haven't played with Mastina for years.

[Luca Blight]

@Titus: what are you reasons for SR'ing Ythan?

[Luca Blight]

your*

[Luca Blight]

I like IV's thought process on why Winter Flakes is Town.

[Luca Blight]

I think A50 is Town based on his posting today.

[Luca Blight]

Right now I believe the following players are Town:

IV
Mastina
Ceph
Poka
A50
AGar

[Luca Blight]

@Luca, mastina changes her mind as often as gravity reverses itself. Rare but it does happen. When it does, she needs evidence. If she's town, I'd have it.

Based on your taking things out of context, I am thinking you might be scum. You most certainly are if mastina is town.

The context being meta? Which makes no sense, given I haven't played with Mastina for years.

EoD and personality. Meta's a tiny fraction.

You come in here and can selectively read whatever's going on to suit your position.

Is this referring to me or Ythan?

I didn't 'selectively read' anything. You were already one of my biggest SR's, and your posting today hasn't made me feel any better about you. It's a tactic I've seen scum do often - they vote someone who they know will vote them, and preemptively try to undermine what they're about to say. You then try to say that if Mastina is Town then I'm scum, which opens you up to vote me in case you feel obliged to change your mind on Mastina. I don't see how this is a natural progression.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: mastina

Case me or die. I want to have this out. I may not respond right away but I want you solved. No more vague meta statements. If I am wrong on you, I should be able to see you having genuine logic here, even if wrong.

This is an example of attacking before being attacked, of initiating the conflict before it arrives on your doorstep.

Basically, if Mastina continues to push Titus then Titus can say 'see, I knew she would do that', while also leaving the possibility open that Mastina could change her mind. Titus then continued this by associating me as being scum if Mastina is Town, which is completely baseless.

[Luca Blight]

Based on the D1 wagons I think it's unlikely both Titus and Ythan are scum, and right now I'm leaning towards Titus being the more likely of the two as her play seems more calculated than Ythan's.

[Luca Blight]

I had a strong TR on Hopkirk early on, but he hasn't made much of an impression on me recently so I'll need to review him again today. Dunn as well, as he has pinged me a few times.

[Luca Blight]

Based on the D1 wagons I think it's unlikely both Titus and Ythan are scum, and right now I'm leaning towards Titus being the more likely of the two as her play seems more calculated than Ythan's.

why do either of them have to be scum..?

I didn't say they did? But I'd say it's likely.

[Luca Blight]

Does anyone still strongly TR him? I purely TR him based on tone early on, but that's it.

[Luca Blight]

IV, what do you think of my points against Titus?

[Luca Blight]

Based on the D1 wagons I think it's unlikely both Titus and Ythan are scum, and right now I'm leaning towards Titus being the more likely of the two as her play seems more calculated than Ythan's.

why do either of them have to be scum..?

I didn't say they did? But I'd say it's likely.

the way you worded it was like:

"of the D1 wagons, i don't think they're both scum

i think Titus is more likely of the two"

which pinged to me as you were setting one of up them up as scum when they could both be town, whether maliciously or not? there was just a missing link there for me, idk

They are both SR's of mine, and Titus is the bigger SR of the two. I think it goes without saying that I could be completely wrong.

[Luca Blight]

Man, this game is dead whenever I'm online. I'll probably wake up to 30 pages again.

[Luca Blight]

Hi Titus

[Luca Blight]

Just as planned.

lol just noticed this

[Luca Blight]

I'm leaning town on Dunnstrall for 3154. It seems like legit Townie solving, although it was obviously pre-written and prepared and his posts in general haven't been near that standard.

I still don't get his point that I 'talked about DGB' and then voted Lady Lamb? Perhaps you can explain that one.

[Luca Blight]

I could see jjh being scum. He hasn't done anything particularly scummy, but seems to have just done enough to get by without causing many waves. I got a Town ping from his conversation with Lady Lamb D1 (about my slot, I believe) but in general his play has been on the safe side.

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

okapoka yells at infinity to ping Winter on discord to get Winter to move his vote, then this sequence of posts happens

I am here

what are the options? lld dgb and ythan?

I dont really like either of those options but if lld green flips we get more info I think is she at L-1?

this came at the same time, then there was a 6 hr gap until this post:

I popped back in because Infinity pinged me on discord after Oka asked him to?

and then he finally votes dgb

this is not how a scum hydra handles this interaction, imo

I like this thought-process from IV but I'm not sure I entirely agree with it. We don't know how much help he's getting from his teammates, and I'm not sure what he would necessarily do differently as scum in that position than if he were Town? Are you taking meta into account when drawing that conclusion?

As scum, saying 'I don't like either wagon but...' is about as safe and easy a thing as you could do tbh. Most players were saying the same thing, so it's easy to blend in that way.

[Luca Blight]

Is there anything in particular you want me to look at?

[Luca Blight]

I'm about to sleep but I'll review your and Mastina's interactions again Tomorrow.

[Luca Blight]

I think Luca has been in catch up mode for a suspiciously long time. I would normally have caught up over night if I hadn't been on vacation. What's your excuse Luca?

I feel like you're manipulating what I said here. I live in a different timezone, meaning there is usually little activity when I'm online and then I have to catch-up every real life day to a ton of pages. Today it's only about 4-5 pages, which is refreshing to see.

Why is luca in your strong town's hoppityhopkirk?

@Lucas, do you prefer being town or scum? Does it usually take you this long to catch up in a game of mafia? Are there extenuating circumstances?

I prefer Town, and again you're presenting it as though I'm still catching up from the point where I replaced in, which if you'd read my posts you'd know isn't the case.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: mastina

Case me or die. I want to have this out. I may not respond right away but I want you solved. No more vague meta statements. If I am wrong on you, I should be able to see you having genuine logic here, even if wrong.

This feels like Titus knows a case on her in incoming and she's trying to preemptively discredit it.

This is not a good argument

3449 is a bad post. So is 3473.

Thanks for the constructive criticism, guys.

[Luca Blight]

Right now I believe the following players are Town:

IV
Mastina
Ceph
Poka
A50
AGar

y tho?

I've stated why I TR IV - the amount of effort and emotional investment he put into Yesterday's elim would take some magnificent acting skills and emotional fitness if he were scum, especially given both wagons were on Town.

Mastina reads to me like a tunneling Townie who absolutely believes in her reads, and is relentless in pushing them despite all the shit she gets for it. I hard TR Goofball Yesterday for similar reasons.

Ceph's posting seems Townie generally. This is more of a tonal read, but I might have to review at some stage. He was also hard Townread by Dannflor.

Poka has been perhaps the most proactive player this game and was solving with more and more urgency as the deadline grew nearer

A50's posting today has been Townie, maybe I'll elaborate on that later

Agar is antagonistic on a level that scum would most likely avoid. He is willing to make enemies in order to push his scumreads, and doesn't seem very self-aware of his posting at all. It feels as though there's a restlessness in him to drive the game on, and he isn't making pretty posts for the sake of blending in.

[Luca Blight]

I don't agree with your assessment that Titus is preemptively goign after Mastina to defend herself - it doesn't make sense

and it doesn't account for what she would do as town

.

You mean that she would do that as either alignment?

It's something I've seen so many times, for example in a game where I fos'd scum!Norwegian at EoD, and the start of next day he comes out swinging at me before I could make my case on him.

Anyway I'll review Mastina v Titus again in a bit

[Luca Blight]

u should elaborate on the a50 read, am very interested

Sure. I'm going afk for a bit so maybe in about 30 mins - 1 hour

[Luca Blight]

Poka has been perhaps the most proactive player this game and was solving with more and more urgency as the deadline grew nearer

What, in your eyes, is the definition of "solving"?

In the context of Mafia, advancing the game by asking questions, pushing wagons etc in order to create AI information and trying to figure out who's Town and who's scum.

Why do you ask?

[Luca Blight]

Actually, Dann also had the Announcing Modifier. Can everybody ask their "more-experienced-in-moderating team members" what that could mean?

Did I ask YOU to give an opinion? Are you am experienced mod? Which one of your team members gave that response? And -most of all- WTF does the answer have to do with the question?

The previous game didn't have a repeated Modifier. This game does. I am asking what that means from the perspective of setup speculation done by experienced mods in Normal Games. What does the fact a game didn't have something have to do with the fact another game does?

You know what? I'll stop it at this. I was just trying to make it clear to EVERYONE how you are pretending to be engaged but are actually contributing absolutely nothing.

This feels like someone genuinely trying to make sense of the game and being frustrated by a lack of cooperation
.

Even in the most hallowed halls of believing vca is a real thing I'm pretty sure you don't get to say "because wagon analysis" with no further thought

I was immediately counterwagoned when Ythan hit 8. LLD and DGB were both town. Wagon analysis makes sense to me that scum jumped to derail the Ythan wagon. I have said it like 10 times.

I happen to agree. I am not as good as Titus in VCA, but it did feel weird that the Ythan wagon collapsed without a claim, and I did say as much back then.

Ythan is either Town or Scum. If Town, the wagon was either Scum-driven or Town-driven. If Scum driven it makes no sense for it to have sprung up to begin with, since both the main two wagons were on Town (and significantly more powerful players). If Town driven, then Scum would have -at least- tried to fish for roles through it, forcing a claim and then switching to LLD/DGB to force claims off them too (with an already established example). It would have also helped them eliminate LLD "for refusing to claim".

If Ythan is Scum though, this is reason enough for the Scum team to look elsewhere, since -at that point- Ythan seemed more likely to get eliminated than LLD/DGB, so they switched to Titus in a bid to rescue Ythan.

I fail to remember the exact formation of the wagons on Titus/Ythan at this time (and I'm too lazy to go dig my text file) but the one thing I do remember is that IV was "presumably bus'ing" Ythan and switched to Titus soon after. I also seem to remember jjh abandoned the LLD wagon to join Titus' at the time, which does coincide with the narrative I'm theorycrafting here.

I like the logic and solving presented here. I've played with scum!A50 once before and his play is so much better than in that game. It was a while ago so maybe he's improved drastically, but these posts feel Townie to me.

[Luca Blight]

if i get miseliminated or vigged we will have fucking WORDS

You are admitting you don't want to play, but you are ALSO saying you will be mad if you get eliminated?? PLAY THE BLOODY GAME. SHOW US WHY WE ARE WRING IN SRing YOU.

Hint: It's even MUCH MORE SCUMMY when we are actually wagoning someone else. It's weird and inexplicable to me.

This is townie frustration

[Luca Blight]

Do you have any scumreads besides Titus?

Yes, I've already said I suspect Titus, jjh, Ythan and to a lesser extent Winter Flakes and Hopkirk. I'm also becoming increasingly suspicious of Bell.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Luca???

Man why did we have to lose both my rocks day 1. The SS Warthog is left without a rudder.

You, sir, are officially demoted a tier in my reads. You were suggesting we elim jjh instead of Ythan (which I don't agree with but can understand and would not have fought against) but you decided to go for a third person based on someone else's reads?? Why?? Why is Luca now a better lim than jjh/Ythan??

I like this as well, as A50 had already said he suspected my slot and so he would have no reason to take this stance as scum. A50 is trying to narrow the elim pool instead of keeping his options open, as would be more inclined to do as scum.

[Luca Blight]

I'll sit and nod at being voted for my toxicity in that interaction but anyone building reads on thinking a50 is trying is full of shit.

He's clearly trying? Obviously that doesn't mean he's necessarily town, but I'm not sure how you can deny that.

In his previous scum game I played with him he was literally like 'I don't know who to SR, just elim me instead', so this is an immense display of effort compared to that.

[Luca Blight]

I've finally found some time to spend on Titus v Mastina, and I'm reminded of why I SR Titus in the first place:

So, my question is how do I fix LLD v DGB when LLD is largely checked out...

Hmm

VOTE: the worst

Mastina, help me bus worst.

Mastina, help me bus worst.

The problem is that worstie's the scumread of mine most likely to be wrong.

Doubly so IF LLD were town; the worst's chances of being town go UP with LLD town, rather than down.

mastina's scum with TW. The moment I ask her to lim a scumread, she backs off the scumread.

This seems like such a dishonest progression from Titus, and basically seemed like entrapment. Mastina had already stated before this that she was least sure of tw out of her SR's, so it doesn't feel like a justified conclusion to draw and instead comes across as manipulative.

That said, I can sympathize a bit more with Titus in regards to Mastina's push on her, which up until this point had been heavily emphasized but largely unexplained.

[Luca Blight]

I realise it's all meta stuff, but I really think 2117 is Townie from Mastina. It completely makes sense that she would have what she believes is a soulread on Titus based on such intricacies in her playstyle, and to me it makes sense. I don't personally like to put too much emphasis on meta, but on occasion I've also felt these kinds of reads where I can just tell a player is scum based on having played with them before, and when people ask you to explain it it's really difficult. I just had a game with Bugspray and I knew they were scum right from the start based on meta, but it took a few days to convince people I was right.

[Luca Blight]

No, you were pretty clear that you were covering old ground.

I don't know what you're talking about. I'm covering old ground to expand/solidify my read on Titus, and because Titus specifically asked me to?

[Luca Blight]

I'm just in the process of updating my read on Titus

[Luca Blight]

I still don't like Titus' ultimatum to Mastina at the start of this day.

VOTE: mastina

Case me or die. I want to have this out. I may not respond right away but I want you solved. No more vague meta statements. If I am wrong on you, I should be able to see you having genuine logic here, even if wrong.

I don't think Mastina's meta statements were vague. They were at the start, but she later explained it as well as could be done imo. Yes, you could argue the origins of Titus' scumread of Mastina go back to D1 which makes it not preemptive, but the origins of that SR aren't exactly pure as I highlighted earlier. I get that from Titus' perspective, regardless of alignment, she is going to be pissed at being pushed so strongly based on meta reasons that are difficult, and annoying, to defend yourself against. Tbh this is reminding me a bit again of some of her pushes in the last game I played with Town!her, and maybe she is just tunneling as well. I'll need to reflect more and probably see more content in order to become more sure of my read either way.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Bell

OMGUS

[Luca Blight]

Step aside A50 and Ythan, it's time for the main event.

[Luca Blight]

3814 @ IV

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler: Titus's problems with mastina's case as I understand it

(Btw this is more in line with Titus being a town mediator--it's lower-effort than her normal town mediator, but there is a notable marked difference between her mediating that game and this game.)


I could go on and point out more of the town posting from Titus that game, but basically--I could instantly tell that Titus was town that game from posts like the above. It immediately was her as I know her. Lower-effort than previous eras of Titus, but still very obviously her as town.

This game she isn't that at all.

Mastina quotes a series of posts from another game above this. What she doesn't do is state the difference. It's a long spammy version of meta and hoping people fill in the details.

Yo Mastina
Read this game regarding Titus

Are you...trying to prove my point in regards to Titus???

Because that game is immediately obviously Titus-town. It's her towngame immediately and transparently so, and I can point to the town factors that make her town which are utterly absent from this game.

Mastina basically says that there's certain things that made me obvious town but doesn't mention them.

It's another fill in the gaps post by mastina.

Mastina is literally just spamming and hoping you fill in the blanks rather than engage my content, probably because it's right.

Mastina's whole posting is mentioning various factors exist to determine Titus town from Titus scum and that I am not doing those things. It's an outright lie which is why she never details the factors. The closest she comes is quoting posts from another game and leaving people to draw their own conclusions.

And yeah, I get that Town!Titus and scum!Titus would be pissed off by it, like I said. I don't think it's scummy on Mastina's part, though.

[Luca Blight]

I was targeted by a babysitter. I'll be afk today. Spending the afternoon with a date online.

Why would you even announce that? What are your thoughts elsewhere?

I also think Titus shouldn't have been so quick to reveal this. It doesn't really do anything to help Town but potentially gives scum useful info, if Titus is Town herself.

[Luca Blight]

It also potentially gives scum a valuable heads up. This is a large normal, and the role probably resolves itself if Town, which I agree it most likely is. I guess given there's a vig maybe it's not the worst thing in the world to reveal it now, thinking about it.

Do you have any thoughts on my updated posts about you and Mastina?

[Luca Blight]

Adding Xtoxm to the list of my townreads on the advice of petapan, who says he's worlds away from his play in the previous game and in FL vs Hectic. Petapan also TR's Dunnstral.

[Luca Blight]

Town:

Mastina, IV, Agar, A50, Poka, Dunnstral, Xtoxm, Ceph

PoE:

Bell, Titus, Ythan, Hopkirk, Winter Flakes, jjh

[Luca Blight]

Mastina pointed it out in 1975 which Titus never directly addresses, and then Titus goes on to present the same opinion in 2141

[Luca Blight]

Do you have any thoughts on my updated posts about you and Mastina?

You needed more time and data to determine your read on mastina. That makes sense. We need her case to read her.

The fact you seem to have a problem with me wanting to hold her accountable is astonishing.

Mastina's only contributions have been a wrong push on LLD and a wrong push on me. I'm being charitable there.

I don't have a problem with that? I clearly said that you'd most likely be pissed off with Mastina's push as either alignment, that's why I unvoted you.

Being wrong =/= scum, and she has done more than that, like correctly TR'ing my slot and defending it with conviction.

[Luca Blight]

Luca I can't find why u voted bell. Is it just omgusing

He fabricated a reason to vote me.

[Luca Blight]

It also potentially gives scum a valuable heads up

This line alone should make you rethink your SR on Titus. Why would SCUM her announce it in the thread, rather than share it with her team in the PT? I can only see ONE possibility for that to happen, and that would be if Titus is Scum

with

the Babysitter, and even then I don't see why they would preemptively out the existence of that role.

Disagree?

I can imagine if I were scum and got targeted by an announcer I might feel it would seem scummy to hide it.

This thought had also crossed my mind. It could also be to draw reactions in order to determine who the babysitter is.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: luca
the spirit of dann flows through me

This is some weak sauce.

ythan wagon is really meh like to me it just seems like policy based on personality which i don't really like. don't think it has a good chance of flipping red either imo

jjh i'm more willing to vote but i wanna go here first

Why?

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: luca
the spirit of dann flows through me

This also continues to be fine

Anything you want to talk about?

[Luca Blight]

Mastina, can you remind me why you TR jjh?

[Luca Blight]

I'm still happy with my Bell vote. Mastina's thoughts in 4121 reflect my own, and his vote on me was really bad.

[Luca Blight]

^ It's hard for everyone.

Job training for a month, 6 hours a day everyday. I'm not sure how it will effect activity besides negatively.

VOTE: Luca

No, you were pretty clear that you were covering old ground.

You've had a small burst to activity but the takes are lukewarm.

I still don't know wtf he's talking about here. He's avoided interactions with me since this post.

[Luca Blight]

I'm still suspicious of jjh but I'm willing to sheep Mastina's meta read on him for now. The only other player I might be tempted to vote today is Winter Flakes.

[Luca Blight]

I forgot about Titus. I might still be open to that as well.

[Luca Blight]

I'm not really putting that much stock into it - I'm still suspicious of him as I said. I prefer to elim the other people I mentioned so I'm fine leaving jjh be for now.

[Luca Blight]

I don't understand why you don't understand

[Luca Blight]

I don't strongly SR jjh. I think he's played it safe and his content has been lacking, but if that's normal in terms of his Town!meta then fine I guess. I TR Mastina and judging from her Titus case she clearly has a memory for meta, so I'm fine sheeping her opinion for now.

My team give opinions when I ask for them. Is there something you want me to ask them?

[Luca Blight]

In terms of 'intentional choice' the answer is probably yes. Joq replaced into another game and didn't want any opinions etc while catching up in order to get a fresh view of the game, and it worked well, so they suggested I should do the same. I'm pretty much flying solo but asking for opinions on slots I can't much of a read on.

[Luca Blight]

Yes, they didn't want to influence my view of the game or my reads as I was catching up. They said they are only loosely following the game but are happy to take a closer look if I need a second opinion on something, or to help with meta on certain players.

[Luca Blight]

bell improving

Can you talk me through your read progression on Bell?

[Luca Blight]

I think Bell is likely town here anyone wanna weigh in on that?

Why do you think so?

[Luca Blight]

Ceph is pinging me today. I feel as though he's following the path of least resistance rather than genuinely trying to solve the game.

[Luca Blight]

@Poka:

I don't get why you seem to have no problem with Bell's vote on me, given you TR my slot and that his vote made no sense. He's avoided clarifying what he meant despite me asking twice since. It feels as though he's looking to avoid conflict and doesn't really believe in his read, because if he did he would want to highlight exactly why he thinks I'm scum. Atm it feels like he wanted to quietly vote me without causing any fuss, and it's backfired on him.

[Luca Blight]

Ceph, you've been shading me all day but haven't given a single reason for why you SR me.

[Luca Blight]

@Poka:

I don't get why you seem to have no problem with Bell's vote on me, given you TR my slot and that his vote made no sense. He's avoided clarifying what he meant despite me asking twice since. It feels as though he's looking to avoid conflict and doesn't really believe in his read, because if he did he would want to highlight exactly why he thinks I'm scum. Atm it feels like he wanted to quietly vote me without causing any fuss, and it's backfired on him.

well tbh im interested in bell doing anything. although i will admit im a little sad he's not casing you further but also i don't townread you enough nor do i think it matters enough where i care about stopping pressure on you. im pretty sure he's voting you because he didn't like your catchup fwiw at least that's what i got out of it

His main reason seemed to be that I was covering old ground, while conveniently ignoring that I was doing so to solidify my position on Titus v Mastina and because Titus specifically asked me to look over it again. When I pointed this out he was just like 'no, you were covering old ground' and voted me without any further explanation, and has avoided talking to or about me ever since.

[Luca Blight]

I think I've finally worked out what Ythan is talking about. Took a while.

[Luca Blight]

Although I could be completely wrong

[Luca Blight]

If it's what I think it is then I don't see how it's a townslip on Bell's part, as if Ythan hadn't drawn attention to it it's quite possible that no-one would have noticed.

[Luca Blight]

I think this means Ythan is probably town tho, unless he's doing some genius play

[Luca Blight]

luca isn't your pfp supposed to be the meme where you've ascended on another plane of existence

you should be completely confident

I haven't ascended to Hopkirk's level yet, I'm still reaching

[Luca Blight]

Poka, if you had to solve the game right now what would be your guess?

[Luca Blight]

Poka, if you had to solve the game right now what would be your guess?

i dont have a solve i just have a poe pool

i have a list of people that i think i can comfortably call town and willing to bet the game on them being town?

Ok let's hear it

[Luca Blight]

?????????????????????? what in the living fuck is going on

I thought I knew but apparently not

[Luca Blight]

Mastina seems more obviously Town than most on your list.

You think she cases Titus like that and suddenly changes her mind as scum?

[Luca Blight]

I would assume Dannflor targeted Goofball, as no-one has said they were targeted.

[Luca Blight]

Do you mind explaining your vote?

[Luca Blight]

So you think I'm lying about not receiving a message saying I was targeted?

[Luca Blight]

I just double-checked my pm's and I definitely didn't get a message, other than a day start pm.

Why would I even need to lie about this if I were scum?

[Luca Blight]

@Poka:

you leaned town on Agar earlier, but now you're willing to bet the game on him being Town. Explain this progression, please.

[Luca Blight]

So you think scum never move from one town wagon to another unless absolutely necessary? That seems really weak to me.

also:

im willing to bet the game on

me, dunn, agar, ceph, iv, xtoxm,

maybe ythan

all being town here. that's 7. we have 15 people alive, i think if i find like 1 or 2 more townies then i dont really care about who we eliminate as long as we just cull from the bottom

You had already townbinned Agar here, when you weren't yet sure on Ythan. Your progression doesn't quite add up, unless I'm missing something?

[Luca Blight]

V/LA until Monday

[Luca Blight]

Wow, being run up to E-1 while on V/LA? Very classy, guys.

VOTE: Luca

Eliminate {bell, Titus, winter flakes, Poka, jjh} in that order and I believe Town wins the game.

Good luck

[Luca Blight]

Just vig Bell tonight pls ty

And Dannflor didn’t target me btw

[Luca Blight]

Nice one, Hopkirk. Wp everyone

This was a really hard game to replace into as scum, what with it being a re-roll and everyone being so familiar with each other