Amnesiac Mafia: The Movie! That's a Wrap!

[Frozen Angel]

everyone called for first but no one called the second place

so second

also VOTE: Klick cause first players smell

just gonna say that I probably wont be active much tonight and will start playing game tomorrow night cause I'm really busy

[Frozen Angel]

lets see if I can catch up or not

so first page, click announcing they going vla so wagoning him is scummy then shows up to comment again - meh - like the tiny tiny tiny tiny stress in click, I can see u

firebringer writing poems - oki

VOTE: Firebringer
I really don't enjoy their entrance and I dare say it's possibly scummy.

why?

VOTE: Firebringer
I really don't enjoy their entrance and I dare say it's possibly scummy.

You're probably town!

super why?

should I read FB poems

[Frozen Angel]

[The cowboy doesn't find BlueSnakelet story very convincing]

Cowboy: You don't know how you know her name but don't know how you remember it. That seems very fishy. Where were you and What were you doing this morning?

yeah this is actually try harding mode on FB

Btw I am gonna say GiF is my first townlean here, for no reason in particular except vibe.

Pocketed

gut is fine. rvs is for gut mainly. and seeing someone going try hard like fb

Wait is this going to be the first game where I am being consensus townread on page 2?
Rather than consensus scumread on that page, that is.

Not town reading you at all actually if it helps

not sure why would you think about how others are percieving you at this stage of game

[Frozen Angel]

VOTE: Firebringer
I really don't enjoy their entrance and I dare say it's possibly scummy.

You're probably town!

super why?

This doesn't feel at all like the desired opening play for scum

How so? they just dropped a single read out right at end of rvs. how is that not a desired opening for scum?

[Frozen Angel]

Wait is this going to be the first game where I am being consensus townread on page 2?
Rather than consensus scumread on that page, that is.

Hold up, who is townreading you on page 2? I went back and checked and didn't see it.

and? whats the point of this question?

Alisae informed me Icedragon is the same as Dragoneater.
I don't believe this

I don't believe Alisae is in this game?

They actually said that in mafia chat of the large theme I was modding that was finished.

I’ll scumread you too just to make you feel comfortable

Thanks! Not used to being townread before page 10.

I see now that Klick is townreadin you, but why are you acting like everybody is?

oki "acting" as you think its fake? like he doesn't think that?

[Frozen Angel]

Because people like you aren't going to like it!

why do you think I disliked it? I just noted its existence. it doesn't give me any kind of info either way. that's why asked about what was behind the post in his thought process

I actually have more read on your tr on it than I have on the original read itself. (leaning toward the dislike category)

pedit: his going after blue for the titus thingy was what I called try harding on page 2 IMO I don't care about his rp

[Frozen Angel]

Now, what else have we here? Firebringer taking the movie theme maybe a little too seriously, whatever.

But I'm not all that fond of just brazenly declaring you're unhappy for not being scum.

Dunnstral is asking questions and means business, like that.

Dragon entered sounding kind of aggressive?

Not sure what to make of that yet.

Oh, I did have a thought which might be beneficial, and games where doing this would make sense are few and far between.

In this setup, there are no true power roles. Everyone is equal. Even if you die with a power role, someone else may randomly get it the next day. How does everyone feel about a day one massclaim?

do you think the colored one was an act/could be an act?

elaborate red one

and about blue line mech wise this will actually lead to the current game powers being known/probably scum has utility to somehow mess with the roles when they know whats in play?

I see no point in mass claim. you think mod forgot to give scum proper ways of fake claiming and setup breaks with massclaim in a switching roles like how it is in this setup?

how I read a suggestion of mass claim? goofy

I don't think its actually scummy by nature that you suggested this but I really wanna know your thought process to reach this conclusion

[Frozen Angel]

I'm incredibly skeptical of people who try to steer conversations towards mech this early.

do you think its pro scum to do that? why?

[Frozen Angel]

I would argue Dragon didn't seem to care about RVS much either. I feel like both of their entrances could be considered "aggressive with a disregard for RVS" so I just wanted to see why Dunnstral got the pass.

It was a difference in tone. Dunnstral was asking questions, but Dragon seemed angry at Firebringer for the act and voted them for it.

this "anger" is based on the vote they put? how is a vote showing "anger" to you? you think they cant be just thinking what FB was doing was pro scum and it was an emotional vote?

Might as well explain where I was going with this, since I just learned my idea would not work. I wondered if the mafia would be told which amnesiac roles had been assigned to them, even if they would not get to use them. But I asked, and they are told, so no such luck. Would have been too good to be true.

Is feysal experienced enough as a scum player to fake this? anyone has meta with them?

[Frozen Angel]

Maybe Dunnstral is town and Fey is just giving free town points to Dunn for some reason. That take on dunns questions is just baffling to me.

alisae says it was a nothing statement to say about those questions, i agree. Like how and what does those questions you think is sorting other players from Dunnstral? You gave me nothing on how it is just that it is.

I think Fey was saying Dunn is doing things = townie. Like as an easy freebie read to give out to someone he knows is town i guess and didn't think anyone would question it?

VOTE: Feysal

I don't agree with shea early statement though on the whole bringing up the mass claiming was scummy. As a counter point to my own now push on Feysal, i think going for full claim or not and how to play the mechanic game is more a philisophical uestion of mafia and usually not alignment telling.

I don't believe Feysal read on Dunnstral

I actually like this post. I don't think feysal is building up to make a read. they just dropping them and not just the dunn one. I also don't feel like I get the "ice dragon is angry so voted FB" thing at all. it all just feels so shallow and with 0 try for actual sorting it - like from an informed perspective

then again the mass claim and recalling it as "oh I checked with mod and game is not breakable cause scum will have fake claims" is so weird too. like I can see a scum planning on acting like they wanted to break setup but they cant but it feels so obvious that its a fake act that it makes me doubt if its actually real at this point. so I prefer to know meta on this

I think fb would be playing this game differently as scum, but also I like REALLY don't like the ali stuff.

you doing like it as you don't agree with it or you think is faked somehow? can you elaborate

[Frozen Angel]

He has played dozens of games with me.
And I listed him as one of the people i was hyped to play a game with.

Ive actually always considered dunny to be a mafia friend. So the fact he took my rp as insulting him, was just really baffling to me.

Theres a lot of things to unpackage there I just don't want to right now.

As soon as I started posting you said it wasn't worth listening to me? Did you not?

too emotional defense from dunn really. no try to sort back FB even though the first poke was him going on FB tail.

Maybe Dunnstral is town and Fey is just giving free town points to Dunn for some reason. That take on Dunns questions is just baffling to me.

Okay, you want my attention? You have it now.

I did not think I would need to explain game basics to someone who has been around as long as you, but apparently I was mistaken. As town you ask questions, you receive answers, you evaluate the answers to see where they are coming from and whether the thought process behind them makes sense for town. Sometimes it results in nothing, sometimes you get a better read on someone, but you keep trying. That is one way to scumhunt, and that is what Dunnstral appeared to be doing. So what did you think of those questions then?

I'm also noticing a weird pattern here. First Dunnstral questions you, and you vote them without answering. Dunn says they did not like your post 26, and you accuse Dunn of being scum. I like Dunn's questioning and also dislike how you brazenly declared you did not get a scum role like you wanted, and you accuse me of being scum with Dunn. And then... suddenly you drop the scumread on Dunn, but I'm still scum in your eyes, because why? How is this read progression supposed to make sense? And after all this, you go back to accusing us of being scum together.

What are you smoking? Seems like you believe offense is the best defense, and attacked the two players who had voiced suspicion of you.

wait so you think everyone who asks questions are scumhunting?

also you think he dropped a scum read on you to distract a push against himself?

[Frozen Angel]

Firebringer town

did you came out of vla just to drop this read? does this mean you're caught up?

[Frozen Angel]

Hello Feysal! You seem like an interesting player and I'm looking forward to playing with you

I've not read particularly carefully up to this point as I'm still on V/LA, but is there anyone so far that has made you feel that they are particularly likely to be town?

yeah this doesn't feel right you're either here or you're not. whats the point of reminding the v/la if you're dropping reads and responding? just to not take heat and steer stuff?

[Frozen Angel]

Lady Lambdadelta's thoughts in my own words:

Titus is fence sitting really hard this game. She is capable of playing this worthlessly as town, but not with a team she has to look out for and with other players she respects.

This is me/Firebringer town and Titus faking reads on both to position herself where she needs to be. She is going out of her way to be middle of the road.

Thestatusquo is almost a scumread because he is asking Titus all these questions and trying to get answers when personality wise he should just be voting her right now to force an answer.

Feysal is town for getting overwhelmed in their interaction with Firebringer.

Klick is town for having sane posts after some other rough posts in the thread.

Black is maybe town due to interactions with Thestatusquo, but both are unlikely to be town together.

DragonEater feels too naive to be mafia and is a gut town read. They would be getting more direction as mafia.

Pink Ball is mafia for the interaction with Feysal about the drinking game being an attempt to be a social townie and slip under the radar.

Also there is at least one lurker mafia right now. Maybe just the one and it is Titus, Thestatusquo, Pink Ball, and one more. The rest of the active posters feel like town.

VOTE: Titus

this post seems to have a lot of linked reads I don't feel these reads are all but I guess people have different intuitive to follow.

I really want you to elaborate the red one cause it makes no sense

[Frozen Angel]

alright I skimmed game.

lets get some more votes on klick to ruin their VLA

titus says they need more of me, you have it. now I need more of you

someone drop a meta read on feysel. I think there is a good chance feysel is scum for:
1 - not developing reads and being extremely reactionary
2 - the whole scums probably not having fake claims ready - lets break setup with day 1 mass claim fake act

though I also adore their avatar and I still wanna see more of klick

[Frozen Angel]

oh and I think there is a good chance FB dun was tvt and feysel freaked when FB called out its possibility and went after feysel instead somewhere in those pages.

[Frozen Angel]

But I'm not all that fond of just brazenly declaring you're unhappy for not being scum.

Do you think the colored one was an act/could be an act?

Not sure what you mean by act. Firebringer does not need to act brazen as scum, he is. I would not put it past him to rub it in our faces like this.

Dragon entered sounding kind of aggressive?

Elaborate red one.

I've seen Dragon's town games, and got the impression that he was more relaxed in them. I would have expected him to join in on the joke for a laugh, not to tell Firebringer to knock it off. There is a sort of nervousness I get from his play, and I wonder why that is.

In this setup, there are no true power roles. Everyone is equal. Even if you die with a power role, someone else may randomly get it the next day. How does everyone feel about a day one massclaim?

I don't think its actually scummy by nature that you suggested this but I really wanna know your thought process to reach this conclusion.

I see you already found my later post where I explained. Yes, in retrospect it was too good to be true, but for a moment I thought the benefits might outweigh the downsides.

So why you did not like him stating he hated not ranging mafia if you think it's truthful?

nervousness is different from anger I suppose. I think that makes sense with what you posted earlier about your view on him though.

Do you usually mech spec and try to break setups right at start of games?

[Frozen Angel]

oo emotional defense from dunn really. no try to sort back FB even though the first poke was him going on FB tail.

That isn't emotional defense.

It really was a little bit emotional tbh. Like you had counter points but it felt like you're angry at FB for how he went that avenue on you. I actually think it's a sign that the argument between you and him was natural but a very weak sign for that

[Frozen Angel]

I think titus is town.

why?

[Frozen Angel]

yeah this is actually try harding mode on FB

This was def not a try hard post ur commenting on. This was me playing around

yeah well, I'm just saying you were playing around really seriously then. It felt a little bit out of character for you to make that jump on page 2. just a thing I noted to keep in mind.

breaking the rvs wall or trying to provoke reactions, regardless gotta note it down.

[Frozen Angel]

No. Scum usually doesn't propose a massclaim the way Feysal did.

How do they usually propose it?

They don't.

they were like yeah lets mass claim

and then I asked mode and scum has fake claim so it wont work

Like I can't be the only one who thinks that doesn't look like a genuine thought process. why would they start mech specing assuming scum doesn't have fake claim and setup is breakable as town?

but then are they the kinda scum player who would fake such thing just for you and others to call it a town tell? Thats why I asked meta about this. seems like no one has any of it.

[Frozen Angel]

@Frozen Angel
Alisae is demanding your world view. All of your reads. ALL OF THEM

I don't vomit reads, they gotta be produced.

I'm actually also really busy on sundays, Mondays and tuesdays and gonna try to work on putting 2 and 2 together in Wednesday when I'm not just skimming the game

[Frozen Angel]

Firebringer town

did you came out of vla just to drop this read? does this mean you're caught up?

No

Hello Feysal! You seem like an interesting player and I'm looking forward to playing with you

I've not read particularly carefully up to this point as I'm still on V/LA, but is there anyone so far that has made you feel that they are particularly likely to be town?

yeah this doesn't feel right you're either here or you're not. whats the point of reminding the v/la if you're dropping reads and responding? just to not take heat and steer stuff?

If you'd genuinely like an explanation, I've been at Eastermeet this weekend - literally on vacation with low access. I'm excited for this game and am eager to play, but I have been spending most of my time focusing on the meet I was at. There were a couple of points during the meet when I had some down time, in which I decided to check in on this on my phone with poor data reception. To be clear, V/LA does not mean 'you're either here or you're not'.

PEdit: I've given a few and I'm catching up on the rest now
Because I'm no longer V/LA :O

vla actually means I cant check and post in game so don't prod me but fair enough.

From where I'm at right now FA feels very similar to Cosmos where she was scum though

Go on please.

It's not a very strongly formed thought
But the basic idea is that in Cosmos I felt like

FA's approach was largely to question other people's takes as a means to develop her own view of the game and make it look genuine

It's different from a town approach in terms of motive for posting; the whole point of what FA was doing in Cosmos felt like it was to look town through having considered and nuanced takes that were developed by sort of hijacking other players' genuine thoughts and critiquing them
And here it feels very similar, I feel like almost everything FA has done has been a critique of another original perspective with only a couple of reads originating from something she has brought up herself

It all fits under this umbrella idea of 'I think FA wants to look town right now rather than actually doing town things'

I don't like to self meta but since you brought it up here it goes

I ask a lot of questions to find a thought process error in what people say at different times. Someone is portraying they feel like this about something at some point, when asked in 3 different manners about it they say something that has a conflict with what they portrayed first = they were faking that initial though and they don't own it.

if you find a conflicting pattern of thought process you caught scum.

Whose reads are you accusing me of copying here exactly? I don't think anyone else was pushing you for vla (actually drixx wrote a line for that too that I remember) and not vla, or sorted the 3 way of dun FB freysel like me upon that skim?

so why dropping that I'm copying people read without actually saying who and what you think I'm copying to "look genuine"?

also it was a catch up so its pretty much copying what everyone else was saying/asking them questions about them and some raw ideas I had on top of my head while skimming it

[Frozen Angel]

Let's dive deeper. What reads feel sourced from FA? A sample that doesn't?

Let's dive deeper. What reads feel sourced from FA? A sample that doesn't?

I felt it most strongly in her interaction with me. 336 particularly alerted me to this as a concept:

Because people like you aren't going to like it!

why do you think I disliked it? I just noted its existence. it doesn't give me any kind of info either way. that's why asked about what was behind the post in his thought process

I actually have more read on your tr on it than I have on the original read itself. (leaning toward the dislike category)

pedit: his going after blue for the titus thingy was what I called try harding on page 2 IMO I don't care about his rp

It's high-detail, specifically contradicts assumptions I made about her perspective, and develops what appears to be a nuanced take on both myself and DragonEater without doing the heavy lifting. I remember her doing something that made me feel very similar to this in Cosmos. Let me go find it

viewtopic.php?p=13538654#p13538654

I'd like to quote that post but I can't quite make it happen, idk whether I just am not able to quote from locked threads at all or if it's a mobile-specific issue

It's not an exact match to what I'm describing here, but basically I made an assumption based on VCA, and FA used it as a means of discrediting what I was saying while developing her own read on me as well as the situation without adding much genuine original thought outside of detailed analysis of my own thought.
The same sort of thing happened in her early-game argument with STD, in their conversation about 'shading'. This is probably a better example of it, it happened in like the first 10ish pages of that game.

341 feels similar. Lots of critical thought in a very focused way towards specific details of Feysal's 97. She gives the appearance of a nuanced perspective but it's limited to what she could derive from 97 itself, and I think the projection of nuance could be intentional.


I actually fairly like FA's last two posts as counterexamples of this - they contain clear general conclusions based on the things she's been talking about. The add-on in 361 a minute and a half later feels kind of like legitimate thought. But I want more of that from her.

Dunn, I literally just said that. You think town!LLD uses her precious words to restate what I already said?

VOTE: Dunn

@Klick, Thanks for the response. Will try to review in an hour

yeah i actually like klick trying to meta me with that. seems like he really tried for finding references for what he was saying actually tbh even though that is not me copying anyone or dropping tones of questions. It actually is me trying to not jump to a conclusion and see how stuff are in a scum game. as town though I also analyze and drop questions and I don't make conclusions till I have em. have you ever seen me play in a game as town?

btw for the record in that other game I was not trying to discredit you. I was trying to show that I'm analyzing what you said (which I would have same analysis as town still reading that post) and to drop questions that would fake how I actually try and find things that have a conflict with a town perspective but also for real analyzing/questioning you. Your VCA conclusion there felt like it could be coming from an informed perspective there. that game was multiball and I genuinely was scum hunting.

@titus where did you go after an hour. why saying nothing about klick homework?

[Frozen Angel]

So I am actually going to say Klick is a townlean of mine (and I was also convinced by their case that FA is scummy here).

Why was klick scum leaning me? explain their "case" in your own words please

[Frozen Angel]

oo emotional defense from dunn really. no try to sort back FB even though the first poke was him going on FB tail.

That isn't emotional defense.

It really was a little bit emotional tbh. Like you had counter points but it felt like you're angry at FB for how he went that avenue on you. I actually think it's a sign that the argument between you and him was natural but a very weak sign for that

about this

I really think you were not trying to sort FB back there that feels out of place. I care more about that then about the emotion in it.

[Frozen Angel]

Firebringer town

did you came out of vla just to drop this read? does this mean you're caught up?

No

Hello Feysal! You seem like an interesting player and I'm looking forward to playing with you

I've not read particularly carefully up to this point as I'm still on V/LA, but is there anyone so far that has made you feel that they are particularly likely to be town?

yeah this doesn't feel right you're either here or you're not. whats the point of reminding the v/la if you're dropping reads and responding? just to not take heat and steer stuff?

If you'd genuinely like an explanation, I've been at Eastermeet this weekend - literally on vacation with low access. I'm excited for this game and am eager to play, but I have been spending most of my time focusing on the meet I was at. There were a couple of points during the meet when I had some down time, in which I decided to check in on this on my phone with poor data reception. To be clear, V/LA does not mean 'you're either here or you're not'.

PEdit: I've given a few and I'm catching up on the rest now
Because I'm no longer V/LA :O

vla actually means I cant check and post in game so don't prod me but fair enough.

From where I'm at right now FA feels very similar to Cosmos where she was scum though

Go on please.

It's not a very strongly formed thought
But the basic idea is that in Cosmos I felt like

FA's approach was largely to question other people's takes as a means to develop her own view of the game and make it look genuine

It's different from a town approach in terms of motive for posting; the whole point of what FA was doing in Cosmos felt like it was to look town through having considered and nuanced takes that were developed by sort of hijacking other players' genuine thoughts and critiquing them
And here it feels very similar, I feel like almost everything FA has done has been a critique of another original perspective with only a couple of reads originating from something she has brought up herself

It all fits under this umbrella idea of 'I think FA wants to look town right now rather than actually doing town things'

I don't like to self meta but since you brought it up here it goes

I ask a lot of questions to find a thought process error in what people say at different times. Someone is portraying they feel like this about something at some point, when asked in 3 different manners about it they say something that has a conflict with what they portrayed first = they were faking that initial though and they don't own it.

if you find a conflicting pattern of thought process you caught scum.

Whose reads are you accusing me of copying here exactly? I don't think anyone else was pushing you for vla (actually drixx wrote a line for that too that I remember) and not vla, or sorted the 3 way of dun FB freysel like me upon that skim?

so why dropping that I'm copying people read without actually saying who and what you think I'm copying to "look genuine"?

also it was a catch up so its pretty much copying what everyone else was saying/asking them questions about them and some raw ideas I had on top of my head while skimming it

I have to go to work in a minute, but two quick questions:

Can you give me an link or two of times you successfully found scum with this technique?
Can you give me an example or two of times you thought you caught scum with this technique, but were wrong?

well I don't play that much and I have a goldfish memory but you can see me playing like that in every one of my town games unless if I'm busy or something. I ask a lot, specially about what people meant. I throw fos if I think it'll help me get more info and I compare all info from same slot to see if its inconsistency with their own mindset or a town mindset or not.

this was my last town game I think

viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=90328&user_select%5B%5D=36948

I'm kyoko in there and it has a bit of role playing but the essence of my play is similar. I caught biancospino with same analysis at the very start of game but like my initial scumread of Wednesday later in that game was wrong.

if you want more games you will have to go for like 2 years or more back xd

[Frozen Angel]

Yeah I wanna do this now actually

VOTE: DragonEater70

So I am actually going to say Klick is a townlean of mine (and I was also convinced by their case that FA is scummy here).

Why was klick scum leaning me? explain their "case" in your own words please

I really want this btw, when you're back. 100% serious

[Frozen Angel]

I liked FA's entrance and her thoughts felt like they were coming from a genuine solvey place, however I started to doubt that after reading some of what Klick put down about her. Klick has a couple of good points about why he thinks FA is scummy here even if they aren't very strong. Like they seem like things that would make Klick sus of FA but not necessarily things that could get others onboard. FA's whole reaction to the Klick push was to discredit it and then jump on Dragon for following it and I feel like this could be interpreted as her going for an easier target

"discredit"

where did I discredit klick's push on me I want you to specifically point out to what you mean when you use that word cause all I did was clarifying to him why what he sees is not scum indicative of me while completely acknowledging what he was seeing without any confrontation

also my vote/scumread on dragon eater is not because of

him agreeing with klick

its because I think he is not, in reality, agreeing with klick, I think he is actually faking reading/following what he wrote about me and just went on sheeping someone who expressed town reading him on their scum read.

why?

truthfully mostly

gut feeling

about how he jumped on that read. but also cause in my head klick made a link between my play here and what he saw before while dragon eater cant make such link in their head like them.

I really think he saw klick posting a meta read and without questioning "is this meta sufficient" or "is this even making sense" sheep it, while klick's doubting himself on forming the meta read before, suggests he is unlike dragon eater and was evaluating that link.

hence I think dragon eater is an opportunistic scum who is using the tr that was expressed on them to steer behind klick on this linked read

[Frozen Angel]

@black like I need you to actually make a list of all times/instances you accuse me of "discrediting" klick. cause that's a very specifically weird word to describe our interactions as in no context I talked about what he was doing and was basically explaining what he did not see from my meta.

why did you use that word?

[Frozen Angel]

@black like I need you to actually make a list of all times/instances you accuse me of "discrediting" klick. cause that's a very specifically weird word to describe our interactions as in no context I talked about what he was doing and was basically explaining what he did not see from my meta.

why did you use that word?

I read your #555 and looked over the Klick interaction again. I think "discredit" is the wrong word. It felt like you were trying to tell Klick he was wrong about you in the first post you made responding to him (491) but after looking back it reads more like you had issues with Klick's reasons (ie: copying reads, approach to the game)

so? I know he is wrong and I tried to explain why

how is that a reason for you to scum read me - or to describe it as discredit or something like that? Are you retracting that read of yours?

[Frozen Angel]

I still dont know what he meant with copying reads part btw cause I didn't do that in any context in this game and klick still didn't respond to that part.

[Frozen Angel]

oo I forgot to respond to 516

So why did you not like him stating he hated not ranging mafia if you think it's truthful?

Firebringer is known for his trolling. When I saw that, my thought was pretty much "Ugh, is he actually scum and trolling us right now?" I did not actually know he liked playing as scum, only that he was capable of being bold when he was.

I did go back for another look, and on second reading it does not seem like taunting the town. Saying he did not get the role he wanted was more an offhand remark while talking about his role play, and he did not come out and say he was unhappy about not being scum until Dunnstral confronted him about it.

Do you usually mech spec and try to break setups right at start of games?

Just to be clear, you're asking me to provide meta on myself? One of the first lessons I learned on this site is that self-meta is fraught with peril. I have never lied about it, but have still gotten in trouble for it, because meta is often a matter of opinion and subjective.

With that out of the way, the short answer is I don't know. I have done something like that before, maybe at the start or later in game, but I don't remember all my games and I can't say how common it is. I also don't think it is worth delving deep into years old meta, so I'm just going to point you to three posts in three games as three alignments which I think are relevant, and give you a little context. Make of that what you will.

Spoiler: Self meta, aka rambling about the good old days

Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den #2515
I was a serial killer with a special win condition. Early in the game I had spoken of the need to organize the town, because I think everyone had damaging abilities, and I expected it to become a town-on-town bloodbath. It got so bad that third parties outnumbered the town. This was the post where I claimed, and offered to remove myself from the game by name-claiming, using a punishing game mechanic to my benefit. Ultimately I lived, because everyone left except the town had achieved their win conditions, and the mod did not want to drag it out.

Mini 1406: Sherlock Mafia #348
I started this by trying to bait people to talk about flavor, hoping to spot townslips. It was a major blunder. Later I figured out that we were actually playing assassin in the palace rather than regular mafia. I was a guard who did not know the identity of the king, and even some guards who were informed had not realized what the setup was. That remained my only achievement in game, though we did win.

Machina Mafia #150
I played this as an alt, and was scum. In this game power roles were divided in two pieces, with sensors and emitters needing receivers to target them. There was discussion about how we should play this, and I participated in that, offering my suggestions and calling out bad logic. I got executed, but ultimately Lady Lambdadelta carried the scum team to victory.

Like I can't be the only one who thinks that doesn't look like a genuine thought process. Why would they start mech specing assuming scum doesn't have fake claim and setup is breakable as town?

You want to know? I'll tell you why.

At Dawn, members of the town will receive their Amnesiac Role. There are a number of roles in rotation that will be randomly distributed each Dawn Phase. That means that even dead players will be assigned Amnesiac Roles at Dawn. (Though they will not be PMed, since they are dead) The Mafia Team will be assigned Amnesiac Roles in the same random manner, though the roles will not be granted to them.

In this game, scum do not have fake claims. They get real roles assigned to them from the same pool as town every morning. It says here that the roles are not granted to them though, and that left it ambiguous in my mind whether they would even be told what they were. I could just about imagine a game where scum would need to keep track of which roles town had claimed during previous days, maybe even making up a fake claim and pretending it had been assigned to a dead player on the days they did not claim it themselves. Getting ahead of that might have been beneficial, but as already stated, it does not work.

1 - so you still don't like it or are natural about it now on second read?

2 - self meta is totally fine. I don't like self meta about I would naturally townread/scumread this slot in such similar circumstances, but self meta about play style and how you dig the game is pretty fine.

why I asked you that question was, its very odd for a town player to start a game assuming

they can break the setup.

This is not really something that a town mind set thinks about in general at the very start of game at all. I do understand in which scenario game would break here and why you though mass claiming does it but why even thinking about breaking game in first place?

so this self meta you provided helps with that concern actually cause it seems you actually go for town slips or way to break things or do heavy mech spec before anything else in games at least sometimes.

but yes again I see how this game would be breakable and having a breakable game is not something I assume town-mindsets normally would think off.

regardless this is actually a very good post by feysal

[Frozen Angel]

how is that a reason for you to scum read me - or to describe it as discredit or something like that? Are you retracting that read of yours?

I don't scumread you, I'd say you're pretty close to null atm

can you write in two sentences why you scum read pink and blue? (color issues aside)

[Frozen Angel]

I liked FA's entrance and her thoughts felt like they were coming from a genuine solvey place, however I started to doubt that after reading some of what Klick put down about her. Klick has a couple of good points about why he thinks FA is scummy here even if they aren't very strong. Like they seem like things that would make Klick sus of FA but not necessarily things that could get others onboard. FA's whole reaction to the Klick push was to discredit it and then jump on Dragon for following it and I feel like this could be interpreted as her going for an easier target

"discredit"

where did I discredit klick's push on me I want you to specifically point out to what you mean when you use that word cause all I did was clarifying to him why what he sees is not scum indicative of me while completely acknowledging what he was seeing without any confrontation

also my vote/scumread on dragon eater is not because of

him agreeing with klick

its because I think he is not, in reality, agreeing with klick, I think he is actually faking reading/following what he wrote about me and just went on sheeping someone who expressed town reading him on their scum read.

why?

truthfully mostly

gut feeling

about how he jumped on that read. but also cause in my head klick made a link between my play here and what he saw before while dragon eater cant make such link in their head like them.

I really think he saw klick posting a meta read and without questioning "is this meta sufficient" or "is this even making sense" sheep it, while klick's doubting himself on forming the meta read before, suggests he is unlike dragon eater and was evaluating that link.

hence I think dragon eater is an opportunistic scum who is using the tr that was expressed on them to steer behind klick on this linked read

I think that this is a plausible theory, but is there any supporting evidence? Why do you think this?

cause I felt like it was what he did really.

like when klick made the meta link I was like yeah I can see him getting there in my headbut when dragon eater jumped on it, I was like can he see that? klick was pretty analytical with how he approached it. klick was like yeah I think its what she did as scum before but was still up downing it in his head. dragon eater just ignored the updowning klick was doing and went like yeah you town read me I gonna say I read your iso give a town read to you and jump on your only read without ever saying anything else about me.

that's why I asked him to repeat the klick case in his own words but he either didn't see me asking or just didn't check game since

[Frozen Angel]

Just for the record unless if you engage with me and drop a question or something, wagoning me will not give you anything cause I never learnt how to respond to random votes being thrown at me when there are no questions attached to them.

I liked FA's entrance and her thoughts felt like they were coming from a genuine solvey place, however I started to doubt that after reading some of what Klick put down about her. Klick has a couple of good points about why he thinks FA is scummy here even if they aren't very strong. Like they seem like things that would make Klick sus of FA but not necessarily things that could get others onboard. FA's whole reaction to the Klick push was to discredit it and then jump on Dragon for following it and I feel like this could be interpreted as her going for an easier target

"discredit"

where did I discredit klick's push on me I want you to specifically point out to what you mean when you use that word cause all I did was clarifying to him why what he sees is not scum indicative of me while completely acknowledging what he was seeing without any confrontation

also my vote/scumread on dragon eater is not because of

him agreeing with klick

its because I think he is not, in reality, agreeing with klick, I think he is actually faking reading/following what he wrote about me and just went on sheeping someone who expressed town reading him on their scum read.

why?

truthfully mostly

gut feeling

about how he jumped on that read. but also cause in my head klick made a link between my play here and what he saw before while dragon eater cant make such link in their head like them.

I really think he saw klick posting a meta read and without questioning "is this meta sufficient" or "is this even making sense" sheep it, while klick's doubting himself on forming the meta read before, suggests he is unlike dragon eater and was evaluating that link.

hence I think dragon eater is an opportunistic scum who is using the tr that was expressed on them to steer behind klick on this linked read

I think that this is a plausible theory, but is there any supporting evidence? Why do you think this?

LLD thinks that this FA post looks defensive and stilted, like FA is trying to get out from under something instead of arguing something she believes in. And FA fits in as the lurk mafia LLD was looking for.

I (Dunn) am in agreement after having the above framed to me like so, because I am not seeing why FA is thinking this way about Dragoneater so it looks like sowing doubt and trying to deflect. "Getting out from under something" is a good phrase that I'll use again here.

VOTE: Frozen Angel

LLD thinks that Titus might be voting FA thinking that FA can save themself so that Titus can swap their vote later, or worst case get bus cred. Because Titus' vote on FA feels like Titus got there with zero reasoning and is dissonant from their prior take. Giving up on Black and saying "meh" doesn't make sense.

If Titus wants to bus, we should let her bus and then dunk on her tomorrow.

I'm (Dunn) going to add that it is not clear why Titus decided to vote for FA over other options, which I feels lends merit to this being a bus that Titus is not expecting to take off.

what about me choosing dragon eater as next option is "defensive". He was not even casing me/voting me. he just drop 1 line to sheep klick.

like why would LLD think scum me would feel any sort of pressure to feel defensive about that by voting him. I was voting klick before switching to dragoneater since RVS and being back on klick would have been more "defensive" no?

I'm really (and I mean really) not a fan of people who make linked reads like the one you made in day one. especially when they are so shallow like the one you made.

titus vote on me as you said is without any explanation. how did you judge that its a bus or not without knowing any of our alignments or their reasons for voting? the fact you made the link based on nothing makes me think (again call it a gut feeling actually) that there is a chance your read on one side or both side of that link might be fake.

[Frozen Angel]

I read 732 from FA above and feel I need some time to think about it. Or to break it up into little pieces.

-Klick is more analytical than DragonEater
-Dragoneater ignored Klick's analysis and voted for FA
-Dragoneater did not say anything else about FA
-You want Dragoneater to explain Klick's analysis in their own words

klick had a reason to make that meta link and went back and forth on it as I expected that thought process to do when actually analyzing it. the read is naturally made or I think it is.

Dragon eater was klicks first tr who they just repeated they tr. dragon eater says they read klick iso to develop a read on them say they read the case on me and agree with it completely ignoring how klick himself went back and forth on it or without any kind of validating the completion of the meta.

so I asked them to actually repeat what klick found scummy about me. Klick did explain similarities in my playstyle in a multiball game we played in which I was a scum but without actually reading how I actually played in such game how would dragon eater capture the essence of what klick was saying about me to completely jump on that train? I feel like dragoneater dropping a scum read on me in that particular moment was from an opportunistic scum mindset not because they actually read and validated the stuff klick was saying.

[Frozen Angel]

Dunn, did LLD tell you that this is the right time to buss?

You are free to engage with the points we've made if you'd like.

What points do u want me to engage with. It looks like ur bussing
It looks like LLD told u to buss and then claim Titus is the one that is doing the bussing.
I agree FA is scummy, I just think ur trying to buss and then say Titus is the scum post flip.

well I will flip town but I agree that linked read is super out of place. if hypothetically I flip, a scum!dun will probably be like well I was wrong on fa but titus was the one who pushed them without reason at the time I thought it was bussing but I it was just scum steering for miselim blah blah

its just such an easy way for a scum to take a position about my rising up wagon.

[Frozen Angel]

btw furitive said he finds kuribo a bit sus in this game but didn't elaborate at all. nothing specific about them stick out to me on my initial skim and in on later pages personally but I'l keep in mind for doing an iso sweep when I have more time

[Frozen Angel]

why are you even discussing about game being single/multi ball.

multiball games are usually announced pregame and if they arent there is nothing we can do but preogressing game to figure it out if its one.

It's simple really. you all need to just relax on making linked reads and create more focused solo reads for day 1 when there ain't more info to go with.

[Frozen Angel]

FA are you asking for me to ask LLD something, or are you making your case to the general public in 739

ask it from LLD

[Frozen Angel]

btw furitive said he finds kuribo a bit sus in this game but didn't elaborate at all. nothing specific about them stick out to me on my initial skim and in on later pages personally but I'l keep in mind for doing an iso sweep when I have more time

If furtive thinks kuribo is sus then I'm locktowning kuribo

a history there?

[Frozen Angel]

I expected better of you ali. tell him I'm disappointed FB

[Frozen Angel]

let's do it differently

many people expressing hard tr on dragon eater right now

I wanna know why? try to sell a tr to me if you can, each of you individually.

[Frozen Angel]

like their iso is full of this moments:

"hey x, thanks for tr on me, I agree with what you said with this other super active poster , so I scum read them too" it just feels really unnatural. He literally did the same with "feysel" case on FB too.

He had been evaluating dun vs FB on his own and he unvoted both earlier. why would his return to FB because of feysel case?!

[Frozen Angel]

I just feel like if you trace his thought process, its not in the same channel. Its going up and down a lot in different directions.

[Frozen Angel]

well technically feysel is semi scum reading dragoneater actually but that's not the important part. I get the vibe dragon eater is rather trying to appeal to other slots that actually producing reads.

[Frozen Angel]

I am super exhausted tonight so won't be here. will catch up in the morning.

[Frozen Angel]

we need more votes on dragon eater, so many slots randomly dropping a tr on it for almost no valid reason, that makes me think its actually faked

I belive their read making thought process is faked up.

[Frozen Angel]

actually faked by few* - possibly

I still need everyone who dropped a tr on dragon eater to elaborate

[Frozen Angel]

I have repeatedly explained my dragoneater read and you have refused to engage with it.

I didn't do my usual iso checks. sundays mondays tuesdays are the worst/busiest days for me. I should have some time to go back and check/categorize these stuff more closely.

what I said was more of a "general feeling"

I also saw black explaining his read last page after i asked. again I'm exhausted, will go through these stuff tomorrow.

[Frozen Angel]

people who say they scum read me. If you don't drop in a question or explain your thinking process, you will get absolutely nothing out of me or anyone else voting on the wagon right now this way.

My wagon is the easiest to hope on right now, cause no one voting explains anything or asks anything and people in town and scum will be like yeah I hit it too.

Do work for your vote on my wagon so you make other people work for their votes on my wagon as well so at least you can sort them based on it.

[Frozen Angel]

Alright, you're about to see a bunch of long wall posts as I will iso-hunt different slots of this game. so far I've been basically skimming the game/even my catch up as this is the first day I actually have time to do some surgery in game. Regardless I'm gonna start with the slot that stood out most to me on the skim. so if you don't like wall posts skip to the ---- part at end of each post where I explain my general impression on each slot.

VOTE: Firebringer
I really don't enjoy their entrance and I dare say it's possibly scummy.

This is the first notable read made by slot. Need to note it down.

Wait is this going to be the first game where I am being consensus townread on page 2?
Rather than consensus scumread on that page, that is.

This self awareness is actually not fitting with what I remember of dragon eater form the game I modded and they played it or the other games I saw them in previously. In the other game they even had a guilty and were not safe aware about how and when to drop it in thread. They didn't "care" as much about how they were perceived by other slots is what I feel. so this as his first posts in this game, feels so different personality-wise.

Guys I re-read FB vs Dunn and honestly I've been scumreading both, but now I want to individually TR each one of them for making a good push on a scummy slot.
I'm honestly confused.

Going for dun as his questions were not hitting anything - makes sense as a read but his way of backing off from that is him trying to stay in a safe position with both slots he had been uncomfortable with. Not neccessirly distancing scum, can be distancing town but its definitely distancing, as if he would want the slots sorted he would probably ask questions of each or try and engage with each/iso read their past posts, make actual assessments about each individual - instead of just saying they both are scum read of his but he town read them for going after each other at same time.

Also on rethinking of the Dunn v FB, I think that Dunn's vote was justified. On the other hand, FB's scumcase is based on something that IS scummy on Dunn's part, but could easily be pushed by scum and therefore doesn't warrant a TR on FB.
Therefore I am no longer TRing FB for pushing Dunn, and am gonna probably vote FB (after I finish the catchup).
For noe though I'll UNVOTE:

again distancing. his two scum read changed to two town read but "those two town read are actually right about what they found scummy on other slot" this is not really being an assertive mindset. Its just going with both flows.

VOTE: Firebringer
I really don't enjoy their entrance and I dare say it's possibly scummy.

why?

Their roleplay was triggering my PTSD from scum-spam in your Demon Hunter game. It felt like unnecessarily drawn out fluff that didn't help us get out of RVS and that was actually hindering us from having a readable thread.

Where did FB do RP in the other game. They posted lot of fluff and open wolfed but never saw them RP there? I think this justifies the first read dropped though in a sense, if its gut based and based on the exp of demon slayer game (not trusting FB fluffing in general) so consistency points for this

oh and I think there is a good chance FB dun was tvt and feysel freaked when FB called out its possibility and went after feysel instead somewhere in those pages.

I actually agree with you on it possibly being tvt

full back off on the they might be right about each other, appealing to me making this read

Okay I just read through Klick's ISO, and initially it felt a bit weird:
It is kinda weird that Klick gave like 4 townreads with minimal explanation and no scumreads. It feels very easy to fake, I guess. And none of their posts really stood out for me at the start.

But then I continued reading and I saw those posts, which have a genuine town mindset IMO:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Firebringer
I really don't enjoy their entrance and I dare say it's possibly scummy.

You're probably town!

super why?

This doesn't feel at all like the desired opening play for scum

I've played like 3ish games in a row with Titus where she has been scum and in this game I'm getting a zeal from her that I haven't felt in other games. I think she's engaged her town solving brain in a way that she wasn't quite there for in the last few games I've been in with her.

It could be Team Mafia making her tryhard even if she's scum but I'm enjoying her content so far regardless and am fine to boost what she's currently doing for the thread.

From where I'm at right now FA feels very similar to Cosmos where she was scum though

Go on please.

It's not a very strongly formed thought
But the basic idea is that in Cosmos I felt like FA's approach was largely to question other people's takes as a means to develop her own view of the game and make it look genuine
It's different from a town approach in terms of motive for posting; the whole point of what FA was doing in Cosmos felt like it was to look town through having considered and nuanced takes that were developed by sort of hijacking other players' genuine thoughts and critiquing them
And here it feels very similar, I feel like almost everything FA has done has been a critique of another original perspective with only a couple of reads originating from something she has brought up herself

It all fits under this umbrella idea of 'I think FA wants to look town right now rather than actually doing town things'

Let's dive deeper. What reads feel sourced from FA? A sample that doesn't?

I felt it most strongly in her interaction with me. 336 particularly alerted me to this as a concept:

Because people like you aren't going to like it!

why do you think I disliked it? I just noted its existence. it doesn't give me any kind of info either way. that's why asked about what was behind the post in his thought process

I actually have more read on your tr on it than I have on the original read itself. (leaning toward the dislike category)

pedit: his going after blue for the titus thingy was what I called try harding on page 2 IMO I don't care about his rp

It's high-detail, specifically contradicts assumptions I made about her perspective, and develops what appears to be a nuanced take on both myself and DragonEater without doing the heavy lifting. I remember her doing something that made me feel very similar to this in Cosmos. Let me go find it

viewtopic.php?p=13538654#p13538654

I'd like to quote that post but I can't quite make it happen, idk whether I just am not able to quote from locked threads at all or if it's a mobile-specific issue

It's not an exact match to what I'm describing here, but basically I made an assumption based on VCA, and FA used it as a means of discrediting what I was saying while developing her own read on me as well as the situation without adding much genuine original thought outside of detailed analysis of my own thought.
The same sort of thing happened in her early-game argument with STD, in their conversation about 'shading'. This is probably a better example of it, it happened in like the first 10ish pages of that game.

341 feels similar. Lots of critical thought in a very focused way towards specific details of Feysal's 97. She gives the appearance of a nuanced perspective but it's limited to what she could derive from 97 itself, and I think the projection of nuance could be intentional.


I actually fairly like FA's last two posts as counterexamples of this - they contain clear general conclusions based on the things she's been talking about. The add-on in 361 a minute and a half later feels kind of like legitimate thought. But I want more of that from her.

So I am actually going to say Klick is a townlean of mine (and I was also convinced by their case that FA is scummy here).

"these posts come from a town mind set" is not assertive either. its appealing. (though klick is really hunting stuff/being assertive in those posts so I agree with the read).

But the second line is not something he should have said on klick read. klick posted a meta read on those posts he himself had doubts on, the meta read he posted is really focused on a behavior than anything else and he didn't try to assert if meta read is sufficient or correct on that channel and he doesn't have any kind of vision about how I play scum like klick does = hence I think its just a try for appeal to klick in this post than a real scum read.

hence why i asked him to explain klicks case in his own words at the time, which he ghosted on that request so far.

Also Klick, your readlist is so interesting to me. Why am I in first place? And why is GiF so low?

why so self-conscious? Dragon eater is not searching and being assertive, he is just going with the flow and being self councious

Ugh god I really don't like dragon's response there

vote: Dragon

Not to reiterate the things that Shea just said, but I do agree with him on this. You never once questioned four people calling you town seemingly with no good reason. And then calling yourself limbait, ehhhhhhh

Just feels like a way to preliminary poo-poo a wagon on you

Read my completed games - I've been called limbait several times on D1, different games.

This just doesn't make sense as a response. he didnt ask if people calling yourself limbait is a typical thing or even you being a limbait is a typical thing. he is saying you're not questioning people town reading you to assert them. (intrestingly you just did question one close to this post - so it seems you read this issue with your playing style and went and tried to remedy that before even responding to this post). and you not trying to assert people who town read you, means your self awareness is not for sorting people who make reads about you and its just for your positioning in game - which is more fitting for a scum mind set.

You being a limbait usually is completely irrelivent

@Feysal, I read your case on FB and I agree that their push on Dunn is scummy.
VOTE: Firebringer

After going with my read on FB dunn, he went with another appealing over assertion and went with feysel case on FB and went back to voting FB

------------------------------

Dragon eater is scummy. He is just not solving. He is incredibly self aware but not the type who want to assert why people have reads on him/just about people having reads on him - he is flip flopping on FB dun case with every read others make - he is appealing to "hotter" cases people post without asserting the cases. = he wants to have reads more than he wants to find the reads = he is probably informed and is just working on his own position in game than solving.

lets please have more votes on dragoneater.

[Frozen Angel]

btw all I got from gimli so far was that he saw game is already 40 pages and posted a gif of a kid running away to hide

[Frozen Angel]

gonna iso the wagon on me next, starting with titus

Black, I have a 75% meta tell on you.

I'm deliberately going to let others post to see if they see it.

You remind me of me when I started.

Your only loss was a town game correct?

where did that meta read go?

@Black How do you feel about Feysal for proposing it?

Can you give me your mehs?

titus is doing random stuff but they don't seem directed and they seem to be helpful for sorting in general

her later chat with dunn feels natural

her chat with klick about klick meta on me feels natural too

From where I'm at right now FA feels very similar to Cosmos where she was scum though

Go on please.

It's not a very strongly formed thought
But the basic idea is that in Cosmos I felt like FA's approach was largely to question other people's takes as a means to develop her own view of the game and make it look genuine
It's different from a town approach in terms of motive for posting; the whole point of what FA was doing in Cosmos felt like it was to look town through having considered and nuanced takes that were developed by sort of hijacking other players' genuine thoughts and critiquing them
And here it feels very similar, I feel like almost everything FA has done has been a critique of another original perspective with only a couple of reads originating from something she has brought up herself

It all fits under this umbrella idea of 'I think FA wants to look town right now rather than actually doing town things'

Let's dive deeper. What reads feel sourced from FA? A sample that doesn't?

This is extremely towny. this means she is fully reading/following klick meta read, asking for examples, trying to see if it applies and what might be left there to explore. This is how you treat a meta read like that as town.

Meh

VOTE: FA

I don't have the energy to fight the thread over Black.

why is black scum? can you case her? cause most stuff you posted till this point is like is a tell you can have based on past experience and not much based on what she posted so far in game so is hard to follow.

I feel like if any other player just randomly started talking about multiball for no reason whatsoever in the middle of day one I would just vote them immediately.

Yeah it's TM. Multiball not a thing.

I actually need to recheck why this multiball discussion started again but it was really weird and I mentioned at time too.

but i'm also willing to vote frozen angel :thumbs up emoji:

Can you? I'd like to see wagons going and I much prefer FA.

why? You have not been trying to converse with me at all. what you hope to gain from a wagon on me when people are just dropping a vote without explaining and there isn't something for me to respond to?

I figured it best to get into the NAI stuff here just in case.

Spoiler: What's going on with me

In late March I went to the ER for some scary symptoms. They ran tests and found only a chest defect I was told was cosmetic. It wasn't. The defect symptoms can, but don't always, get worse as people age.

I struggle with breathing and focusing sometimes. For a minute or two I get occasional blood oxygen crashes that immediately come back up.

The main fix is surgery. I am having my first meeting May 10th. Post surgery I should have a fair amount of mafia time as well. I am playing as a distraction. I am not subbing out. I am not auto town or auto scum for this. It's just setting expectations.

I may VLA and post at the time of surgery. My health is up in the air. Vanishing at any point is NAI.

get better soon <3 best wishes for you

I figured it best to get into the NAI stuff here just in case.

Spoiler: What's going on with me

In late March I went to the ER for some scary symptoms. They ran tests and found only a chest defect I was told was cosmetic. It wasn't. The defect symptoms can, but don't always, get worse as people age.

I struggle with breathing and focusing sometimes. For a minute or two I get occasional blood oxygen crashes that immediately come back up.

The main fix is surgery. I am having my first meeting May 10th. Post surgery I should have a fair amount of mafia time as well. I am playing as a distraction. I am not subbing out. I am not auto town or auto scum for this. It's just setting expectations.

I may VLA and post at the time of surgery. My health is up in the air. Vanishing at any point is NAI.

Spoiler: OOG

If by any chance getting stressed out worsen the symptoms, please tell us if you start feeling this way. This a game after all, your health is a priority. Hope everything works out!

Will do but this game isn't stressing. We need wagons though. Smaller games already got them.

can you read dragon eater iso when you have time and tell me whats your read on him

------

titus town read, assertive, nice discussions with players, reading their cases and trying to make people elaborate them, looking for wagons but not sure what she wants to achieve with her wagon on me.

[Frozen Angel]

dunn next

I’ll scumread you too just to make you feel comfortable

Thanks! Not used to being townread before page 10.

I see now that Klick is townreadin you, but why are you acting like everybody is?

This is good directly out of rvs push, also on FB

26 is me talking about how i was not happy i didn't get a scum pm.

OK. This is an answer to what I was asking. What you posted in 57 was not - why did you choose to make this more difficult?

Additionally, why did you vote for me in post 57?

This is just too aggressive though. Like I feel "feelings" behind dun like "anger"? It just doesn't make sense in his posts around this area.

I wasn't attempting to insult you or be aggressive with roleplay and I really can't fathom how you see it that way,

You said "rambling nonsense as if he is schizo." and "talking to this man might be a waste of his time".

You don't see how that is insulting/aggressive? Really?

he is angry for sure. makes me think his push was genuine

I think that BlueSnakelet looks awkward here.

Their first post, 28, gives me that feeling. After that they banter for a bit and then in post 44 seem to say "what's the point of theme games" in response to someone else not liking roleplay. I feel this is a weird stance to have as usually this kind of thing is not present in theme games. I'm not sure where BlueSnakelet is coming from here.

assertive

It was a difference in tone. Dunnstral was asking questions, but Dragon seemed angry at Firebringer for the act and voted them for it.

Meh. I feel like Dunnstral felt a little angry in his tone, but we can agree to disagree

I'm not angry. But I'm also not going to entertain someone being difficult just for the sake of it. I ended up asking Fire the same question multiple times because he was not answering it. I did mean what I said about using mental health as an insult as being in bad taste but I'm not taking it personally.

nah you were angry. or maybe that's not the best choice of word. still could sense strong feelings there.

what I don't see is you actually sorting FB back through these feelings though. You are questioning him here but there isn't enough attempt to solving him.

I was not aware that Firebringer preferred playing as mafia and so I didn't know what post 26 meant in the context of the game's special role system. I thought maybe they didn't understand how the game worked. I didn't like that instead of answering me they made that post and voted me and then I feel danced around calling me scummy instead of answering what I was saying. I found it took them a long time to articulate what exactly they took issue with in my posting, and then even then never really went into detail, instead preferring broad statements akin to "I didn't like it".

Yes I've played with Firebringer before

You still have vote on FB here, but this is like you debunking your own read on FB. it has an essence of solve in it but more like solving your own case on him than trying to sort FB himself. and why didn't you unvote FB earlier? or are you scumreading FB here for some other reason than his responses about what alignment he prefers to play area?

He has played dozens of games with me.
And I listed him as one of the people i was hyped to play a game with.

Ive actually always considered dunny to be a mafia friend. So the fact he took my rp as insulting him, was just really baffling to me.

Theres a lot of things to unpackage there I just don't want to right now.

As soon as I started posting you said it wasn't worth listening to me? Did you not?

I can see the emotion and its consistent

is there a history? I mean something happened in last game you two played vs each other?

dunn posts are too serious. he is questioning stuff after this point that actually can be useful for sorting slots but in general are easy to fake if scum?

Lady Lambdadelta's thoughts in my own words:

Titus is fence sitting really hard this game. She is capable of playing this worthlessly as town, but not with a team she has to look out for and with other players she respects.

This is me/Firebringer town and Titus faking reads on both to position herself where she needs to be. She is going out of her way to be middle of the road.

Thestatusquo is almost a scumread because he is asking Titus all these questions and trying to get answers when personality wise he should just be voting her right now to force an answer.

Feysal is town for getting overwhelmed in their interaction with Firebringer.

Klick is town for having sane posts after some other rough posts in the thread.

Black is maybe town due to interactions with Thestatusquo, but both are unlikely to be town together.

DragonEater feels too naive to be mafia and is a gut town read. They would be getting more direction as mafia.

Pink Ball is mafia for the interaction with Feysal about the drinking game being an attempt to be a social townie and slip under the radar.

Also there is at least one lurker mafia right now. Maybe just the one and it is Titus, Thestatusquo, Pink Ball, and one more. The rest of the active posters feel like town.

VOTE: Titus

This is a very assertive read list. getting from those feelings regarding FB to produce a town read on him and hunting whoever would have been steering that convo (going after titus) is interesting.

oo emotional defense from dunn really. no try to sort back FB even though the first poke was him going on FB tail.

That isn't emotional defense.

not sure why you deny?

dunn titus convo about black has a relaxed titus saying they scum read black for meta and not explained out reason, and dunn saying they have no meta and they like black play. I kinda feel I believe the scum read based on meta more than feeling this strong about going after that read by dunn and if one was scum in this convo between titus and dunn, it's dun.

oo emotional defense from dunn really. no try to sort back FB even though the first poke was him going on FB tail.

That isn't emotional defense.

It really was a little bit emotional tbh. Like you had counter points but it felt like you're angry at FB for how he went that avenue on you. I actually think it's a sign that the argument between you and him was natural but a very weak sign for that

about this

I really think you were not trying to sort FB back there that feels out of place. I care more about that then about the emotion in it.

Oh it was emotional? OK thanks for telling me how I felt.

Look, I was clearly trying to sort Firebringer. I started this interaction by questioning them, and voted for them when they didn't answer me. I've explained what I think about Firebringer a few times.

I do not like this push from you.

you're welcome. why do you wanna slap me in this post though?

seems like this is just how you play and I might be reading too much into it but my point is whatever emotion was there was consistent.

and you were not sorting FB. You did ask him a question, you were right that he didn't give a complete answer so you voted him, played around that vote a bit and engaged directly with him but not to actually sort his reads/posts or even his read about you. and then you called it a tvt and moved on. it felt like a personality clash without actually discussing why would a scum mindset/scum!FB would do this or that or analyzing stuff.

I never said I think it makes you scum. I just think it doesn't mean you're town. The push on FB was not based on something strong anyway, you just made it big going hard at him (maybe that's why I sensed that emotion there)

still gotta keep a note of this as well to see how it makes sense in larger picture

I liked FA's entrance and her thoughts felt like they were coming from a genuine solvey place, however I started to doubt that after reading some of what Klick put down about her. Klick has a couple of good points about why he thinks FA is scummy here even if they aren't very strong. Like they seem like things that would make Klick sus of FA but not necessarily things that could get others onboard. FA's whole reaction to the Klick push was to discredit it and then jump on Dragon for following it and I feel like this could be interpreted as her going for an easier target

"discredit"

where did I discredit klick's push on me I want you to specifically point out to what you mean when you use that word cause all I did was clarifying to him why what he sees is not scum indicative of me while completely acknowledging what he was seeing without any confrontation

also my vote/scumread on dragon eater is not because of

him agreeing with klick

its because I think he is not, in reality, agreeing with klick, I think he is actually faking reading/following what he wrote about me and just went on sheeping someone who expressed town reading him on their scum read.

why?

truthfully mostly

gut feeling

about how he jumped on that read. but also cause in my head klick made a link between my play here and what he saw before while dragon eater cant make such link in their head like them.

I really think he saw klick posting a meta read and without questioning "is this meta sufficient" or "is this even making sense" sheep it, while klick's doubting himself on forming the meta read before, suggests he is unlike dragon eater and was evaluating that link.

hence I think dragon eater is an opportunistic scum who is using the tr that was expressed on them to steer behind klick on this linked read

I think that this is a plausible theory, but is there any supporting evidence? Why do you think this?

LLD thinks that this FA post looks defensive and stilted, like FA is trying to get out from under something instead of arguing something she believes in. And FA fits in as the lurk mafia LLD was looking for.

I (Dunn) am in agreement after having the above framed to me like so, because I am not seeing why FA is thinking this way about Dragoneater so it looks like sowing doubt and trying to deflect. "Getting out from under something" is a good phrase that I'll use again here.

VOTE: Frozen Angel

LLD thinks that Titus might be voting FA thinking that FA can save themself so that Titus can swap their vote later, or worst case get bus cred. Because Titus' vote on FA feels like Titus got there with zero reasoning and is dissonant from their prior take. Giving up on Black and saying "meh" doesn't make sense.

If Titus wants to bus, we should let her bus and then dunk on her tomorrow.

I'm (Dunn) going to add that it is not clear why Titus decided to vote for FA over other options, which I feels lends merit to this being a bus that Titus is not expecting to take off.

This post makes mose sense in light of knowing dunn went after titus and he and lld felt she could have been steering a tvt on him and FB before as well.

but still its the perfect position for a possible scum to sit to sort mislims

I gotta say, Titus is really acting like Black is being unreasonable this game. And I feel Black has been entertaining Titus' requests this whole time, and then Titus acts like it's not good enough and that Black isn't working with Titus.

So to me, Titus is the one being unreasonable here. Scumreading Black is one thing, but acting like they aren't giving you what you are asking for feels.. I don't know, manipulative somehow? It seems bad at least.

this feels a bit white knighting but I find it towny actually. its really assertive about black. what would be motivation for scum!dun to hard block a titus push on black?

though titus is not providing enough to justify a scum read on black in first place so dunn is right about titus being unreasonable. I still think titus is town regardless

Fire, LLD says you saw how she coached her scum buddies in the PYP game you replaced into. You should know that LLD makes people say things in their own words. And not putting her face or name on it. So she could have had me take this from my own standpoint. She says you need to shelf your paranoia for a day or two, and that this is team mafia and you're playing like you're staring down the gun from LLD and seeing ghosts.

I am not interested in limming your slot today. I am just calling out what I see.

LLD says this is the last bit for now because this is my (Dunn's) game and not hers to play, but in response to this:

She gets this but she is town reading you in large part because you don't have a single care about how you come across, but also have to understand as much as LLD can make the arguments she's made any game, it's also possible for you to see this as a possible outcome in any game. There's no real way for LLD to be able to prove that we are not bussing, except FA flipping town.

All we can do is to continue giving reads, be town, and hope that you find us. Our responses to you here are under the concept that you are in fact town and have a chance of finding us. LLD gets that you aren't going to flip us day one, that's a fair shout.

Not flipping us is good, reading us correctly is better.

appealy but towny response

I read 732 from FA above and feel I need some time to think about it. Or to break it up into little pieces.

-Klick is more analytical than DragonEater
-Dragoneater ignored Klick's analysis and voted for FA
-Dragoneater did not say anything else about FA
-You want Dragoneater to explain Klick's analysis in their own words

assertive

I'll ping LLD but keep in mind that this is also my opinion FA and here are my responses to your points:

what about me choosing dragon eater as next option is "defensive". He was not even casing me/voting me. he just drop 1 line to sheep klick.

DragonEater said:

So I am actually going to say Klick is a townlean of mine (and I was also convinced by their case that FA is scummy here).

So I think it is fair to say that moving the pressure onto DragonEater can be "defensive" here as they seem keen to vote for you, even if they are not currently voting you.

I'm really (and I mean really) not a fan of people who make linked reads like the one you made in day one. especially when they are so shallow like the one you made.

I don't think the read is shallow. I think Titus voting for very little to no reason and not having an explanation for that when called out is a compelling point.

titus vote on me as you said is without any explanation. how did you judge that its a bus or not without knowing any of our alignments or their reasons for voting? the fact you made the link based on nothing makes me think (again call it a gut feeling actually) that there is a chance your read on one side or both side of that link might be fake.

We don't have to "know" your alignments. We are scumreading Titus. We are scumreading you. We think the vote from Titus onto you looks like a bus for reasons we have explained. It feels dissonant with earlier takes and came out of nowhere. The link is not based on "nothing". On top of that, they seem very uninterested in adding any verbal pressure to you beyond their naked vote, and we've seen how into it she can get with Black.

I was voting klick who was the main person with the scum read (meta read) on me. I expressed a TR on klick, elaborated the meta read calmly and tried to elaborate why they have been wrong.

but I switched vote from klick to dragon eater who just said 4 words that they agree with klick not to defend against an accusation. my vote on dragon eater is not because he scum reads me,in contrary I think that line was fake and an instance of them going with the flow. so what I did was far from being defensive but I can see why would you think its reactionary.

-------------------

Dunn, extremely engaging, definitely a top poster/game conscious mover acc - is being assertive, and sorting slots or at least not afraid of dropping reads.

is consistent on his thought process. some positioning felt really easy place for a scum!dun to be. don't understand why he wants to hardblock the titus on black read but I understand his titus impression

though tbh he is being really undecisive about his titus read that is a bit bugging me. like he directly called titus as a scum steering him vs FB tvt, he also said titus is a scum bussing me who is another of their scum reads but then later when its about titus read on black he just calls titus "unfair" and not scum pushing for scum!reasons. so it feels unsettling the more I think about it.

null town lean more toward null

[Frozen Angel]

Save the dragon

p6
shea might be bad
i think this is town fb
black town

consistent method for catching up. dropping reads only but not explaining digesting them

ended up on the most readable case in game (klick meta read on me) not asserting me personally.

i think feysal could be scum and you're more likely to be scum, not that you're necessarily scum together

i like black's posting

can you write 1 or 2 lines about each of your scum reads. just a rough idea why you feel like that about each?

pg 20
dont like drixx

I guess I don't like you either. Please feel free to make a list of reasons for the dislike though. Those in game who have played with me will likely be interested and it will give them things to chew on if they're even bothering to try and sort me today.

oof scummy response

VOTE: drixx

why is that post scummy in your opinion?

i know but it sounded like he was affected by it

i'm a very vibey player and i sort of play by sense of smell, i don't really make cases and if i do they're pretty shoddy because the truth is i kind of go with my gut

you can still tell people why you smelling this or that to a point.

shea how do you feel about FA

I could see myself voting FA if black comes back with something that makes me think shes town.

this interaction seems a bit calculated. I am the general councios scum read of game it seems at this time, so scum trying to build up to vote on me?

That feels more like that than town trying to wagon me to sort me/other voters on me.

Why do you scumread me @Save The Dragons over the people you actually engaged with/talked about who you offered scumread on to the point of advertising wagoning me like that?

----------------

I will not be able to make a read on players like him in the early days at the very least. you all should make him work for his vote on my wagon so you can sort them later for it.

consistent flow in game - which is not really AI but is the only thing I can say about them. If you put a gun to my head I would say null - slight town in general but specially with their way for advertising voting me and how Thestatusquo responded I wanna drop them a tier to pure null.

[Frozen Angel]

Kuirbo

some thoughts before i go back to bed:
I hate day 1

Firebringer is town, at least that's my gut. I do find FB to be one of the hardest players for me to read on this site, but that's just me

leaning town on Shea, though I do disagree about not liking FB bringing Ali into the conversation. At the time, the only game open was ours and it's not like our teammates were busy with their own games. If anything, I kinda like FB/Ali's enthusiasm for getting Ali involved. Also it seems like FB's thought process has been wide open and well-explained.

Jury's still out on Dunn but I at least like the volume of content. good lord, that's not saying much at all, I really need to re-read this stuff in the morning.
Titus I like what she's been doing but I also know that I can't necessarily read her as easily as I can some other players. At least not on Day 1.
Kinda iffy on dragoneater, the whole "lol why is everyone townreading me" was kinda weird on page two when that wasn't a thing
I feel like fey kinda accidentally towntold in a way that wouldn't be intuitive to fake
I don't like the idea of massclaiming, at least not at the moment. I do agree with Fire that we should claim our Day 1 roles on Day 2 etc

that's where I am for now, see y'all in the morning

seems natural progression in general. one of only people to call out dragon eater self awareness I assume - I'm just seeing this post for the first time cause I somehow missed it on my skim earlier.

what you like about what titus been doing btw there?

RP is so far the opposite of tryhard

If you called FB's roleplay fluff, I'd be on board for that, even if I see it as NAI

But tryhard? Not even hardly

My point wasn't about him "try harding to sort the game" It was about try harding to post stuff. It felt like he senses an obligation to post a lot of stuff (including his RP stuff and the vote he did and he cased hard but was not about much to begin with) at that stage of game.

VOTE: Dunnstral

Cowboy turns back to Old Man (Dunnstral) who nows begins rambling nonsense as if he is schizo.

Cowboy: Hey, Old Man. What in tarnation are you yammering on about?
Old Man: Sonny boy, did you even read?
Cowboy: Read what? [The cowboy is about to figure out talking to this man might be a waste of his time but continues anyways]
Cowboy: Theres nothing to read here. [he points in the general area]
Cowboy: What are you doing in this saloon?

why did he feel the need to do this when RVS window was closing and he was one of people who was doing it? I feel like dunn didn't really like how FB rp'ed in this when FB was just horseplaying with no intentions which cause the clash they had later on. so yeah by that word I didn't mean FB was being serious. I just mean FB was doing a lot of random stuff just for sake of doing them. if it makes more sense.

Anyways I'll iso him later on too

I don't think Pink is nearly as scummy as he was in the game we played together a few weeks back, which is really saying something because PB was a third party that game and I let the rest of the town talk me out of pushing him day 1.

This game is weird, Mala and I both feel there's this bizarre vibe in this game where it seems like people are sidestepping me like some of y'all just don't want the smoke and hassle of arguing with me on day 1. This isn't necessarily directed at anyone in particular, more of a "general feel" of the game.

In this game, scum do not have fake claims. They get real roles assigned to them from the same pool as town every morning. It says here that the roles are not granted to them though, and that left it ambiguous in my mind whether they would even be told what they were. I could just about imagine a game where scum would need to keep track of which roles town had claimed during previous days, maybe even making up a fake claim and pretending it had been assigned to a dead player on the days they did not claim it themselves. Getting ahead of that might have been beneficial, but as already stated, it does not work.

Right, so one thing to keep in mind is that if you, say, get a neighbor role with someone else and you both actually get the role, then you're essentially masons because you're confirmed town to one another.

I like how kuribo been progressing on dragon eater and I like him complaining about being ignored cause he evidently was. this all just fit and feel consistent with what I expect that mind state to be

I do have at least one super secret scum read that I'm not willing to jump into on day one anyway just because holy shit it's not worth the hassle of trying to make fetch happen this early. Some people are just hard / annoying to elim, esp on day 1, so I get it. Esp since I recognize that people see me the same way.

Buuuuut if you think I'm talking about you, then I very well might be and you should just NK me tonight

you should just say what you think. It might get lost in thread for now if people don't wanna support it but its something town can trace back to in later days based on flips and info.

This game is weird, Mala and I both feel there's this bizarre vibe in this game where it seems like people are sidestepping me like some of y'all just don't want the smoke and hassle of arguing with me on day 1. This isn't necessarily directed at anyone in particular, more of a "general feel" of the game.

Are you someone the wolves should be afraid of?

I'll ISO you here in a little and engage with you

Eh, I meant more along the lines of I'm a pain in the ass to argue with and I used to be... ummm, let's say really really toxic. I haven't been elim'd as town in over ten years now, so it's def a pain in the ass for scum to try and push me altogether. I don't play that way anymore, but you know how reputations go.

I did have a streak of a number of games a few years back where I tunneled on scum day one, but I'm also rusty. The last game I played, (the first in over a year, and my first non-hydra game in like, two or three) the one I mentioned to Pink just now, my reads were... I don't wanna say *bad*, but they were just left of center. But I got NK'd anyway, mostly because of the massclaim and the fact that I was a doctor.

This is a different case of self awareness than what dragon eater is showing. dragon feels nervous about game state and that's why they are self aware but kuribo is more uh self aware to use it as a utility kind of sense to sort

FAs takes all feel...uh. Bad. Extremely bad.

If someone who is sus of dragoneater could tell me why they think the interaction with me was more likely to come from scum I'd appreciate it. FA and Kuribo both expressed this view I think.

Oh, here it is.

More like to come from scum than town is kind of a loaded way of saying it. I'd say that my gut tells me in this case it's worth pursuing whether it does come from scum or town. It's a jumping off point.

PEdit: I'm not ignoring you, dude, there are a lot of posts, I missed one, relax

"FAs takes all feel...uh. Bad. Extremely bad. "

@Thestatusquo missed it on my skims earlier but why didn't you feel the need to engage with me about them? which take of mine feels bad/extremly bad to you and why?

also jump off me kuribo, I'm here to engage with people about my reads.

This one too. I'm interested in poking your dragon read because you seem to be reacting to things exactly opposite of me.

As I said, at the time I didn't see it as something you wanted a response to, I just figured you were throwing in your two cents. You do that a lot. And I don't say that as a criticism, you've mentioned yourself in this game that it's part of your style to comment on the goingson around you. I think that's fine that you do that. But you do have to understand that when you have dozens and dozens of posts, yes, there will be instances where people just figure you're offering commentary / putting your view on the record rather than asking for further input. What I'm saying is that if you do have direct questions, I'm not the brightest guy, it helps to be direct.

My scumread on Dragon isn't super strong. I even have a stronger scumread that, like I mention, just isn't worth pushing today. Interacting with Dragon for what I saw as "oh shit, yeah, I should have questioned why people called me town on page 2 instead of just bragging about it" is as good a jump-in point as any for me. Because that's ultimately how I saw his action in that. It was a retcon. An attempt to fix an oversight. Perhaps from inexperienced scum, perhaps from town who didn't realize that it can be indicative of buddying. My job here is to figure out which, and coming at Dragon for it is the best way I know how to do that.

I like this progression

I'm really not reading any of this shit about multiball

Unless and until I see a flipped scum with a team name and a different color, I'm assuming it's one scum team

towny reaction.

------------------

my strongest town read I would say between the people I did ISO and I didn't notice them much over my skim before.

not sure why furtive dropped that line that he is sus, I asked them, and still no details but I'll share that too when he responds.

[Frozen Angel]

Drixx

FB, Kuribo, Dunn and TSQ all seem town to me. I don't like Klick's ISO, most especially the re-entry from VLA.

I'm still on V/LA

Okay. But there's a clear 220 post gap after you announced V/LA, and you clearly made a re-entry with a few posts in a row, and they were bad. Responding with "I'm still on V/LA" is disingenuous at best.

poking klick when he was going on and off and posting in game is consistent

drixx what in dragon eater iso did you find scummy and why didn't you ever elaborate that?

I told Black she looked way less "multi tasking" than her other town games, I don't feel that way anymore and realized that I was getting blindspotted via Titus and Shea

I haven't looked at any other games yet as I didn't want to spoil my initial impressions. If Black's play was organic, you would expect the

distribution of engagement

to look WAY different than it does.

can you elaborate on that? you think black is being hyper focused on the people she wanna talk with?

@pink ball yes it was at you.

I will, but at this point Black has been pretty much contributing and the only times that she has been out of focus has been when either you or Titus call her scummy for not contributing, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy rather than the factual truth

Check out Black in ISO and then go back and see how it looks in comparison to the way the game is flowing. It LOOKS super opportunistic and reactionary. Also tally up Black's responses/questions by slot and see where she is and is not paying attention. It should be illuminating.

I told Black she looked way less "multi tasking" than her other town games, I don't feel that way anymore and realized that I was getting blindspotted via Titus and Shea

I haven't looked at any other games yet as I didn't want to spoil my initial impressions. If Black's play was organic, you would expect the distribution of engagement to look WAY different than it does.

I've been constantly reading the game so I've seen Black's posts in a live action manner, maybe that's why we disagree here? I understand the 'opportunistic' vibe but to me it's explained because Black has been engaging the game constantly with whoever is active at the time and both Titus and Shea had spikes of activity and their main focus was Black, so she had to interact a lot about her own slot instead of focusing on other things.

I think there is merit in solving this puzzle though, especially if Titus ends being town and me recognizing that would be huge, so I'll have to reread. Right now I'm building my scumcase on DragonEater though.

So if your impression that Black is responding organically to people as they post is correct, the # of posts at/about each slot should show a pretty strong correlation to the activity of each slot. But it doesn't.

this is actually a very mathematical mindset and I dig it. I need to verify when checking black but I can see this as a possible hunt.

I do not have the knowledge to tell whether that argument about graph correlation has merit or not.

I mean ... you can just map Black's engagement ratio with each slot in her town games, and them map the engagement per slot here and you're gonna see a bunch of games that have similar outputs and then this game as an outlier. That isn't hard evidence in and of itself, but paired with actually evaluating Black's posts and how Black has responded to Titus and myself, it starts to look pretty bad.

but you said you didn't check her meta?

Kowah thinks drixx is scummy

and kind of a neutral read on feysal. I can elaborate on those if people want. I asked him to look at those two people.

Korina mentioned something about DE being town and FB being scummy but I think they've only read a few pages so far.

I will tell ceph he smells esp because he hasn't posted any thoughts yet.

So ... you refused to give any reasons for your own read, and now you come in with an ATA read?

Bro...

drixx engaging with save the dragon feels - ultra defensive for drixx. idk why would he care about being scumread by that particular player to engage him that much about it

you know? I know/agree you gotta engage with people scum reading you for their reasoning but save the dragon is not posting reasons for anything, so why care so much about their read on YOU over everything else?

Drixx out of curiosity what are you trying to accomplish?

I know that std is trying to accomplish. He's trying to annoy you, and he's succeeding.

But your motives in this little exchange are a mystery to me. I don't think you actually believe you're going to get more out of std than this.

Suppose I'm roped today or killed tonight and then you know for sure I'm town. How does STD look then? Town should never refuse to explain reads because in any future where their alignment is confirmed, their thought process is on display to help their team.

At the moment there's also nothing else to engage with sadly.

Also ... I'm not annoyed, I promise.

still factually true but why care only about their read on you? they also dropped a random read on many other people without explaining any of them that would still go against what you said here

---------------------------

I have to put drixx a bit lower than null toward scum read. He is a very fact checking/mathematical/logic driven player so this might be why I get this impression but he feels hyper focused.

for someone who spent half of his posts explaining why people need to elaborate reads, he didn't elaborate his own dragon eater read/vote yet and he clearly doesn't care about rest of save the dragon reads just the one he has on him. doesn't make sense in my head

[Frozen Angel]

each of these iso dives take a lot of time. but I'll do them all for sure - hopefully all be done before night. feel free to ask me stuff and engage with me about any in meantime

[Frozen Angel]

@klick what does my content being soulless even mean?!

you can ask me questions about any of my reads if you believe I don't believe it

@Thestatusquo I literally have a conclusion part at end of each iso post. whatever I did before today was skimming and posting what came to my mind and today I went digging.

instead of using random words to just jump on my wagon, you all could try and engage with me on my clear and transparent reads.

Its so clear that you all are either being lazy with this wagon or have ulterior motives.

[Frozen Angel]

also titus dragon eater is the scummiest slot I have seen in this game.

You have to read what i wrote about him and engage about him with me instead of saying I think he is town cause of his first post (that I will fight you that is actually a very scummy opening)

[Frozen Angel]

@klick what does my content being soulless even mean?!

you can ask me questions about any of my reads if you believe I don't believe it

Bahahaha I essentially just said the same thing to TSQ.

I don't have confidence in my ability to get meaningful conclusions for myself based on asking you questions about your reads. I don't think it would help me read you accurately.

I feel like you're putting a lot of brain energy into the thread, but I don't see evidence of belief and I don't think asking you about it will help me see that.

so you think I'm actually thinking and evaluating stuff and you think that is more from my scum!me?

This makes no sense

I responded to both your meta read and and am doing concentrated work right now to sort the game and you just drop a vote on me cause I'm "soulless"? and now you're saying you don't even engage with me about my reads to evaluate if they are real or not but wanna still accuse they arent?

[Frozen Angel]

so you want to scum read me no matter what?

if that's the case tell me so I stop caring about responding to your concerns about my slot and spend my energy elsewhere

[Frozen Angel]

I think FA has done a lot of busy work with no conclusion.

Also I am actually offended by this. from town or scum you. each of those ise reads took like 30 min to 1 hour

and its obvious you never read any of them before dropping this judgement cause literally 1/3rd of those posts is pure conclusions and evalutions if not more and its so out there for people to see that I cant in any universe believe anyone who read them would ever dare to say something so BS like this about them

[Frozen Angel]

I will continue my iso digs after dinner later on. if you guys felt you can actually try and sort me or wanna engage with me about my reads and not discredit them, feel free and I will be here to respond to your concerns

[Frozen Angel]

also titus dragon eater is the scummiest slot I have seen in this game.

Who else is scummy to you?

if you would care enough to read my iso's you would see I also dropped a scum lean on drixx and explained why.

[Frozen Angel]

@klick what does my content being soulless even mean?!

you can ask me questions about any of my reads if you believe I don't believe it

Bahahaha I essentially just said the same thing to TSQ.

I don't have confidence in my ability to get meaningful conclusions for myself based on asking you questions about your reads. I don't think it would help me read you accurately.

I feel like you're putting a lot of brain energy into the thread, but I don't see evidence of belief and I don't think asking you about it will help me see that.

so you think I'm actually thinking and evaluating stuff and you think that is more from my scum!me?

This makes no sense

I responded to both your meta read and and am doing concentrated work right now to sort the game and you just drop a vote on me cause I'm "soulless"? and now you're saying you don't even engage with me about my reads to evaluate if they are real or not but wanna still accuse they arent?

You have already defined your metric of what you believe the difference between town and scum is
I believe you intentionally play to appear as though you're doing the town stuff when you're scum, yes
And that would involve going through a lot of mental processes to show your work on how much you're thinking about who is town and scum

Is it unreasonable to say you'd basically approach the game like that if you were scum here?

ofc

I wanna believe I'm a good scum player. I would definitely try and appear solving when scum too

whats you're point?

If I sum up your entire case on me rn you're scumreading me cause you "feel" I'm scum. or that I don't believe my reads? I am not informed. I am evaluating stuff. I won't express strong reads when I don't have them and it's a large theme with lots of players that I didn't even have the time to read their entire iso fully and just skimmed their posts.

I do believe in what I'm doing but sure you can say I'm not super sold on any of my reads. Thats the state you are when you're actually sorting the game and hoping for people to engage with you so those reads become stronger one way or another.

whats even you're point? that I'm soulless? cause I spend hours iso diving to actually produce reads instead of vomiting them like how some people are doing it?

[Frozen Angel]

Like if you wanna scum read me and accuse me of being calculative scum, go ahead tell me what reads I'm faking, whats my motivation and what thinking process comes from a scum mind set on my behalf

But you're refusing to engage with me about those

but you can't just call me soulless and drop a vote on me "for not believing those reads when you're not even trying to engage with me about them. That is wrong

[Frozen Angel]

also dragon going site flaked is irrelivent. He was scummy in his entire iso when he was here.

viewtopic.php?p=13743770#p13743770

read that post and tell me where I'm wrong or if you see things differently or stop trying to discredit my read on him

[Frozen Angel]

I am voting scum to get them limed

I have a lot of reasons for my scum read and I am confident with my vote. at least till dragon eater appears and prove me wrong or I see something more promising about someone else being scum.

and I did case them. Unlike the wagon on me, my reasons for scumreading dragoneater can't even be more transparent. while the lazy town or the opportunistic scum on my wagon will not get anything from me or the other votes on the wagon on me cause elitteraly no one cares even to drop a single question from me about this read or that read or my motivation for doing this or that or even explain properly why they're scumreading me

so ty and not ty. you're discredit of my dragon read/vote is completely noted. also you're ignorance of the rest of my reads/conclusions and how transparently I explained each.

[Frozen Angel]

the reason for the wagon on me is cause klick linked something from this game to a multiball game we played together (in which I was actually also scumhunting) saying why am I asking too many questions or how I scum hunt

and everyone else being like yeah oki someone has a meta read, lets just jump on a wagon cause they seem cool with how they explain it and then a bunch of people randomly jumping on the wagon without having any kind of read on my slot just for the sake of wagoning

I can tolerate this much but when you go and discredit my vote/reads as an excuse to jump on the train or when you purposefully refuse to engage with me about them, accusing me of not believing it for no f..ing reason, then we have a real problem

You can see my conclusions in a completely assertive way. I literally called people town or scum and explained why completely transparently. how can you even suggest that my "busy work" was without conclusion and I don't want to reach conclusions with them when almost all those posts are "conclusions"

tf are conclusions then?

[Frozen Angel]

Like I have a high level of tolerance and I want to believe its way higher than in the old days when i was playing this game but these last two comments by you and klick full-on triggered me.

so congrats with that

[Frozen Angel]

The emotion seems real tbh.

instead of discussing how I felt, what if you actually start reading my posts and let us see if you dare tell me again if there are no conclusions in them?

[Frozen Angel]

The emotion seems real tbh.

I agree but do you think it's frustrated townie real or caught scum real?

This is such a lame post

what do you think yourself? why you're poking the water before jumping to a read yourself and committing to it?

You said you didn't read the iso so you don't know why I'm even angry at the thestatusqueue for making that comment. So why are you asking this completely random question instead of checking for the premises and making your own read?

[Frozen Angel]

I'll need to walk off, eat dinner and cool down. will be back later

pedit: read my iso posts/at least the conclusion parts in them that I separated with ----

I did that so no one can complain about them being walls to just ignore them.

[Frozen Angel]

Like if you wanna scum read me and accuse me of being calculative scum, go ahead tell me what reads I'm faking, whats my motivation and what thinking process comes from a scum mind set on my behalf

But you're refusing to engage with me about those

but you can't just call me soulless and drop a vote on me "for not believing those reads when you're not even trying to engage with me about them. That is wrong

Sure I can, if I believe it correlates with you being scum
What basis do you have for saying I can't do that?

what correlates with me being scum?

what does even mean that you think I'm soulless?

WHAT DO YOU THINK I DONT BELIEVE?

what part of my reads/stuff I do you think is fake and coming from a scum!me?

You cant just say I think x is scum and me thinking that correlates with them being scummy and just have a scum read on them. Thats not solving

or are you even trying to solve me?

You directly say you'll refuse to engage with me about anything cause you're bad at it and then you call me scum and you vote me

well f you too if you're town and doing this lazy shit. You're free to vote me for no reason, but you don't get the right to discredit my reads and accuse them of being fake without elaborating - engaging with me. I spent hours in this game already making those reads and for trying to solve and I wont let some random comment like that be dropped about them and not call it out

[Frozen Angel]

the reason for the wagon on me is cause klick linked something from this game to a multiball game we played together (in which I was actually also scumhunting) saying why am I asking too many questions or how I scum hunt

You wait until you don't like what I'm saying to mention the multiball thing. Did it only just occur to you that that game was multiball, or have you been saving that fact for later?

I said that fact on my first post explaining your meta read. or did you even read my response to you then?

[Frozen Angel]

Let's dive deeper. What reads feel sourced from FA? A sample that doesn't?

Let's dive deeper. What reads feel sourced from FA? A sample that doesn't?

I felt it most strongly in her interaction with me. 336 particularly alerted me to this as a concept:

Because people like you aren't going to like it!

why do you think I disliked it? I just noted its existence. it doesn't give me any kind of info either way. that's why asked about what was behind the post in his thought process

I actually have more read on your tr on it than I have on the original read itself. (leaning toward the dislike category)

pedit: his going after blue for the titus thingy was what I called try harding on page 2 IMO I don't care about his rp

It's high-detail, specifically contradicts assumptions I made about her perspective, and develops what appears to be a nuanced take on both myself and DragonEater without doing the heavy lifting. I remember her doing something that made me feel very similar to this in Cosmos. Let me go find it

viewtopic.php?p=13538654#p13538654

I'd like to quote that post but I can't quite make it happen, idk whether I just am not able to quote from locked threads at all or if it's a mobile-specific issue

It's not an exact match to what I'm describing here, but basically I made an assumption based on VCA, and FA used it as a means of discrediting what I was saying while developing her own read on me as well as the situation without adding much genuine original thought outside of detailed analysis of my own thought.
The same sort of thing happened in her early-game argument with STD, in their conversation about 'shading'. This is probably a better example of it, it happened in like the first 10ish pages of that game.

341 feels similar. Lots of critical thought in a very focused way towards specific details of Feysal's 97. She gives the appearance of a nuanced perspective but it's limited to what she could derive from 97 itself, and I think the projection of nuance could be intentional.


I actually fairly like FA's last two posts as counterexamples of this - they contain clear general conclusions based on the things she's been talking about. The add-on in 361 a minute and a half later feels kind of like legitimate thought. But I want more of that from her.

Dunn, I literally just said that. You think town!LLD uses her precious words to restate what I already said?

VOTE: Dunn

@Klick, Thanks for the response. Will try to review in an hour

yeah i actually like klick trying to meta me with that. seems like he really tried for finding references for what he was saying actually tbh even though that is not me copying anyone or dropping tones of questions. It actually is me trying to not jump to a conclusion and see how stuff are in a scum game. as town though I also analyze and drop questions and I don't make conclusions till I have em. have you ever seen me play in a game as town?

btw for the record in that other game I was not trying to discredit you. I was trying to show that I'm analyzing what you said (which I would have same analysis as town still reading that post) and to drop questions that would fake how I actually try and find things that have a conflict with a town perspective but also for real analyzing/questioning you. Your VCA conclusion there felt like it could be coming from an informed perspective there. that game was multiball and I genuinely was scum hunting.

@titus where did you go after an hour. why saying nothing about klick homework?

do you read? do you really?

[Frozen Angel]

I'll need to walk off, eat dinner and cool down. will be back later

pedit: read my iso posts/at least the conclusion parts in them that I separated with ----

I did that so no one can complain about them being walls to just ignore them.

I read all of them

That was to black though not you.

[Frozen Angel]

This feels like legitimate frustrated FA here. I can say this from bitter experience and the fact that I'm fairly sure FA no longer considers me a friend.

I consider you a friend. we had some good or bad games and they all were games. I don't hold grudge against you for anything

I was also way more heated in general in the past and crossed some really awful lines. I apologize for those and hope you forgave them

did you read my post about you? do you have a response about my read on you?

[Frozen Angel]

the reason for the wagon on me is cause klick linked something from this game to a multiball game we played together (in which I was actually also scumhunting) saying why am I asking too many questions or how I scum hunt

You wait until you don't like what I'm saying to mention the multiball thing. Did it only just occur to you that that game was multiball, or have you been saving that fact for later?

This feels slightly disingenuous.

Pretty sure FA mentioned that pretty early on.

Let's dive deeper. What reads feel sourced from FA? A sample that doesn't?

Let's dive deeper. What reads feel sourced from FA? A sample that doesn't?

I felt it most strongly in her interaction with me. 336 particularly alerted me to this as a concept:

Because people like you aren't going to like it!

why do you think I disliked it? I just noted its existence. it doesn't give me any kind of info either way. that's why asked about what was behind the post in his thought process

I actually have more read on your tr on it than I have on the original read itself. (leaning toward the dislike category)

pedit: his going after blue for the titus thingy was what I called try harding on page 2 IMO I don't care about his rp

It's high-detail, specifically contradicts assumptions I made about her perspective, and develops what appears to be a nuanced take on both myself and DragonEater without doing the heavy lifting. I remember her doing something that made me feel very similar to this in Cosmos. Let me go find it

viewtopic.php?p=13538654#p13538654

I'd like to quote that post but I can't quite make it happen, idk whether I just am not able to quote from locked threads at all or if it's a mobile-specific issue

It's not an exact match to what I'm describing here, but basically I made an assumption based on VCA, and FA used it as a means of discrediting what I was saying while developing her own read on me as well as the situation without adding much genuine original thought outside of detailed analysis of my own thought.
The same sort of thing happened in her early-game argument with STD, in their conversation about 'shading'. This is probably a better example of it, it happened in like the first 10ish pages of that game.

341 feels similar. Lots of critical thought in a very focused way towards specific details of Feysal's 97. She gives the appearance of a nuanced perspective but it's limited to what she could derive from 97 itself, and I think the projection of nuance could be intentional.


I actually fairly like FA's last two posts as counterexamples of this - they contain clear general conclusions based on the things she's been talking about. The add-on in 361 a minute and a half later feels kind of like legitimate thought. But I want more of that from her.

Dunn, I literally just said that. You think town!LLD uses her precious words to restate what I already said?

VOTE: Dunn

@Klick, Thanks for the response. Will try to review in an hour

yeah i actually like klick trying to meta me with that. seems like he really tried for finding references for what he was saying actually tbh even though that is not me copying anyone or dropping tones of questions. It actually is me trying to not jump to a conclusion and see how stuff are in a scum game. as town though I also analyze and drop questions and I don't make conclusions till I have em. have you ever seen me play in a game as town?

btw for the record in that other game I was not trying to discredit you. I was trying to show that I'm analyzing what you said (which I would have same analysis as town still reading that post) and to drop questions that would fake how I actually try and find things that have a conflict with a town perspective but also for real analyzing/questioning you. Your VCA conclusion there felt like it could be coming from an informed perspective there. that game was multiball and I genuinely was scum hunting.

@titus where did you go after an hour. why saying nothing about klick homework?

I missed that to be fair
I don't think it changes the essence of how odd her tone shift looks to me

let me summarize your read on me

you scumread for a meta that doesn't hold up, and you stop responding about my answer to you about it (and you were just caught not reading those answers cause you literally said something that I said opposite of before)
thenyou scumread me for me evaluating stuff and not believing them but you don't wanna engage with me about those reads to see if I believe them or not, and you don't wanna even mention which read/or what is exactly what you're accusing me that I'm faking
Now you're scum reading me for my tone cause I'm loosing my shit over you

great job sherlock. You managed to piss me off when you started discrediting my effort and not wanting to engage with me about it and I don't care if you will scum read me for my tone about this cause at this point I'm sure town or scum you wanted to scum read me and stick with it no matter what.

My question is why did you hold off voting me for this long though?

[Frozen Angel]

Let's get more to the point

I wanna believe I'm a good scum player. I would definitely try and appear solving when scum too

whats you're point?

Why do you keep pushing me to read your logical thought process that you spent hours crafting as a means of determining whether you're town or scum, when you know that's not actually an effective means of solving for your alignment?

I don't care about your read on me per say. If you wanted to engage with me and fix that read I was up for it and I proved it with how I approached you when you dropped the meta read.

but I wont let you say I don't believe my read on dragon eater/drixx or the rest as a way to discredit my efforts just so you can justify your lazy shitty vote on me.

[Frozen Angel]

If i wanted to rage on town on my wagon for being lazy I would rage on titus who literally never dropped my name more than 3 times in entire game and none of them were actually about me and more about my wagon.

I don't give a shit if you just want to drop a random vote that you or no one else will get anything out of. I'm here to find scum and to respond to people who think I'm scum and fix their impression if they engage with me.

The reason I raged at you and thestatusqueue is the shining discredit of my efforts in such blatant way not cause you dropped a vote on me or scum read me and I stand by my justified rage till you actually decide to engage with my reads or take back your random shitty discrediting judgement of them

[Frozen Angel]

Let's get more to the point

I wanna believe I'm a good scum player. I would definitely try and appear solving when scum too

whats you're point?

Why do you keep pushing me to read your logical thought process that you spent hours crafting as a means of determining whether you're town or scum, when you know that's not actually an effective means of solving for your alignment?

I don't care about your read on me per say. If you wanted to engage with me and fix that read I was up for it and I proved it with how I approached you when you dropped the meta read.

but I wont let you say I don't believe my read on dragon eater/drixx or the rest as a way to discredit my efforts just so you can justify your lazy shitty vote on me.

I'm not interested in the person I suspect 'fixing' my read through careful crafting of logical arguments that they spend hours making sure they can justify. That doesn't correlate with your alignment. You could do that as town or as scum.

Is that wrong?

Yes from an uninformed mindset here, they can think I'm scum too. like every other slot in game. people can do stuff as town or scum. there is literally nothing in game a scum is not capable of doing too. NO action or reaction is town or scum only. they are either belonging to a town or a scum mindset when you see a pattern of behavior that make more sense in either side.

But you accused me of something here and you don't wanna talk about that at all and are dodging my questions about it

You said I don't believe in my reads. prove that or gtfo with your random shit.

and "I don't wanna engage with you about your reads cause they wont help me determine if you believe them or not" is not an acceptable out of this argument.

I wont let you discredit everything I do by just saying you don't believe them. and then everyone going to do their own thing and their happy place

[Frozen Angel]

If i wanted to rage on town on my wagon for being lazy I would rage on titus who literally never dropped my name more than 3 times in entire game and none of them were actually about me and more about my wagon.

I don't give a shit if you just want to drop a random vote that you or no one else will get anything out of. I'm here to find scum and to respond to people who think I'm scum and fix their impression if they engage with me.

The reason I raged at you and thestatusqueue is the shining discredit of my efforts in such blatant way not cause you dropped a vote on me or scum read me and I stand by my justified rage till you actually decide to engage with my reads or take back your random shitty discrediting judgement of them

What should I do if I want to get an accurate read on you?

I don't know

I never tried sorting a frozen angel in my life.

But that is still you dodging my questions regarding what you accused me of.

what is me being soulless and how you determined it? what reads do you believe I posted and why you think I don't believe them?

[Frozen Angel]

I don't care what you read me as, as much as I care why you read me like that

You need to elaborate why you think I don't believe my reads

and you need to stop dodging me about that right now

[Frozen Angel]

I don't know

I never tried sorting a frozen angel in my life.

But you know better than anyone else the choices you make when you're town vs when you're scum. What do you do about making arguments that you KNOW aren't true when you're scum because you have to push falsehoods? What is authentic in your town game that you notice you're unable to replicate when you're scum? Etc. Etc.

Those things are way more relevant to sorting your alignment than getting into pointless arguments about the weeds.

But that is still you dodging my questions regarding what you accused me of.

what is me being soulless and how you determined it? what reads do you believe I posted and why you think I don't believe them?

I don't know it's a feeling I had reading your posts and I haven't deeply analysed it. When I read your analysis of your reads it is missing a level of *belief* that is observable in your posting, because it's all logical arguments and only logical arguments without your own assumptions or perspective. It's a holistic point that applies to all of your deeply-exained reads and not the nitty-gritty details that you want to discuss.

sure since you're asking me to talk about myself again

as town I'm concerned about two things:
- finding scum by analyzing everything when I can and by getting as much as I can out of people with questions
- responding to any concerns players have about me being town

as scum I would play to fake the two attidues above. like anyone else playing. In general as scum I wouldn't care if I was about to case my partner if they are doing something I can find scummy and I would defend against people scum reading me by either discrediting their cases or pushing them back.

in general I ask a lot, I engage a lot, and I sort better when I'm directly involved in a convo with someone when town and I play fearless when scum. my scum hunting is based on patterns of actions/reactions not singular action/reaction judgements.

take out whatever you want from that or double check with people who actually sorted me before in different games.

and in general I don't drop a hypothesis about someone being scum to scum read them or town read them. I put 2+2s together and see if it all in one picture makes sense as town or scum. calling my reads soulless cause I'm evaluating patterns of actions logically is ... oki?

but going that far for calling them soulless?!

You think I logically evaluated dragoneater and logically think they are scum without believing it. But my logic holds? if it does why you think they are town and my read is faked by a scum me rather than a town with a different perspective/playstyle than you?

[Frozen Angel]

I think maybe "soulless" is the wrong word but Klick's bottom paragraph in 1267 pretty much summarizes how I feel about what I've read from FA. I admit I need to look deeper to get a better feeling here

so you read the iso's finally?

what do you think about my read on drixx and titus and dunn?

[Frozen Angel]

---------------------------

I have to put drixx a bit lower than null toward scum read. He is a very fact checking/mathematical/logic driven player so this might be why I get this impression but he feels hyper focused.

for someone who spent half of his posts explaining why people need to elaborate reads, he didn't elaborate his own dragon eater read/vote yet and he clearly doesn't care about rest of save the dragon reads just the one he has on him. doesn't make sense in my head

For the stuff up top with Black, I think you missed the post where I explained what I had done, which was just data collection without reading the games. I still haven't gone to read them.


Mostly I've been skim reading this day one, and my notes are pretty basic at this point. I work from home now so I can check in more often than the last time I was playing in 2020, but I'm still more limited than when I played a lot in years past, so a lot of my attention has been on folks who are actively around when I am. STD got attention because there was just no reasons for anything, but that has been explained to me to be not only "normal" for them but also immutable. I'm not sure how never explaining anything leads to anywhere useful, but for now I'm putting it on the shelf to revisit later.

I think it's perfectly normal for people who have played with me before to have a hard time reading me early and consequently they put me on the scum end of things. I'm generally not interested in obvtowning on day one, for a myriad of reasons that don't make sense to elaborate upon just now. You know this from experience tho, which is (I think) why you hedged your read by pointing out my style.

I read the part where you explained what you did about black later, but I remember being confused if you did meta check her or not at the end? cause you said you don't wanna do that and then then pulled some data from her games? i will reread that part again later

I note your answer about why you focused on STD read on you.

that just doesn't explain why you didn't explain your read on dragon and still are not doing it?

[Frozen Angel]

---------------------------

I have to put drixx a bit lower than null toward scum read. He is a very fact checking/mathematical/logic driven player so this might be why I get this impression but he feels hyper focused.

for someone who spent half of his posts explaining why people need to elaborate reads, he didn't elaborate his own dragon eater read/vote yet and he clearly doesn't care about rest of save the dragon reads just the one he has on him. doesn't make sense in my head

For the stuff up top with Black, I think you missed the post where I explained what I had done, which was just data collection without reading the games. I still haven't gone to read them.


Mostly I've been skim reading this day one, and my notes are pretty basic at this point. I work from home now so I can check in more often than the last time I was playing in 2020, but I'm still more limited than when I played a lot in years past, so a lot of my attention has been on folks who are actively around when I am. STD got attention because there was just no reasons for anything, but that has been explained to me to be not only "normal" for them but also immutable. I'm not sure how never explaining anything leads to anywhere useful, but for now I'm putting it on the shelf to revisit later.

I think it's perfectly normal for people who have played with me before to have a hard time reading me early and consequently they put me on the scum end of things. I'm generally not interested in obvtowning on day one, for a myriad of reasons that don't make sense to elaborate upon just now. You know this from experience tho, which is (I think) why you hedged your read by pointing out my style.

I read the part where you explained what you did about black later, but I remember being confused if you did meta check her or not at the end? cause you said you don't wanna do that and then then pulled some data from her games? i will reread that part again later

I note your answer about why you focused on STD read on you.

that just doesn't explain why you didn't explain your read on dragon and still are not doing it?

I didn't like the wagon Dragon was on and of the people on that wagon, Dragon had the worst ISO. I didn't say this earlier? I feel like I remember saying this earlier, but maybe not?

You said they had the worst iso but I wonder why you never elaborated why you think that. that's just saying you don't like what they posted so far. but why? that's what I think is inconsistent with what you were saying to save the dragon about his vote on you about not leaving votes unexplained.

[Frozen Angel]

The main point of the last few pages of posting for me has been to get a better read on FA and I feel like I've accomplished that

so you didn't think I don't believe my reads and was reaction testing?

[Frozen Angel]

so you read the iso's finally?

what do you think about my read on drixx and titus and dunn?

Nope, not yet. I got that feeling from some of your other posts. I need to look at the rest to see if the feeling is consistent but I've been mostly live posting today after Fey's ISO wore me out

You need to elaborate on that with examples when you have time

[Frozen Angel]

gimli read the last few pages (only these few pages) and this is his impression:

Klick do you think you're the kind of scum player who struggles to find town reads or struggles to find scum reads, generally speaking?

Your offhand response to me is really sticking in my brain.

The thing is that is exactly why I said your read list felt safe to me.

You have a lot of people in the town bin and a few people in the scum bin who other people have put in the work to scum read already. It didn't seem like you were interested in breaking new ground at all and it felt like you weren't trying to ruffle any feathers.

These two posts look like thestusquo is trying to setup something random to do a possible softpush on klick.

he also didn't like how he tip toes on our slot. - started saying I'm not posting conclusions and then went ahead to try and WK klick's whatever that was on our slot.

he thinks klick's position comes from a town with so many town reads who want to start a level 0 suspicion to get something going and see where it leads so he got a towny impression about how klick was handling this.

----

also regarding kuribo furtive said earlier he felt he was posturing and explaining stuff more than investigating (around the time he complained about people ignoring him) so that was why he said he thinks kuribo is a bit sus.



------------------------

my own impression is kuribo is towny and whatever he posted in his iso feels consistent and legit. also in last few pages, he was the actually the only one who defended me for right reasons and not "my emotions". and by right reason I mean how the entire rage was because I wont stand people calling my reads soulless just to ignore them and as an excuse for throwing them out and not because I raged on it's own and I tr that.

I still klick is null slight town with how he linked what I was doing in this game with what he saw of me in another game and I think him doing what he did about my reads in last few pages can be coming from town and wont say anything about his alignment on its own.

and I also suspect thestatusqueue especially for his line about my reads not having conclusions. cause even if I entertain someone reading my reads and thinking they are soulless I can't accept in any universe someone read them and assumed they are not conclusive with that big separated conclusion part on each of those posts.

[Frozen Angel]

oh and I think black was fence sitting in past few pages to see where this coin will flip with how he dropped one-liners here and there without committing to any side.

[Frozen Angel]

there is absolutely no rush

sure dive in my posts whenever and assert your read when you feel comfortable

but if you wanna say stuff like I didn't like your tone here and there and I feel this or that is fake, I need examples and elaborations

-----

and I didn't say your fence sitting is neccessirly scummy. Its just weird that you tried to rise the flame up by dropping one liner questions like "is it caught scum or angry town" without committing to a read

That part feels a bit scum motivated and I will keep a note of it.

[Frozen Angel]

In contrary, I think there was a purpose behind them

I think the purpose was to add to the fuel without committing to a side of that convo and wherever coin flips go with it.

But I will let you catch up so we can engage on your reads about my reads and everything so we can dive deeper and engage better

[Frozen Angel]

VOTE: Firebringer
I really don't enjoy their entrance and I dare say it's possibly scummy.

What questions do you like specifically? And tell me why you liked them.

All three in their first three posts. And because each of them seemed aimed at trying to read a different player.

I just read those posts, and I actually disagree, those questions are soooo meh it kinda feels like scum blending in.

VOTE: Dunn

Guys I re-read FB vs Dunn and honestly I've been scumreading both, but now I want to individually TR each one of them for making a good push on a scummy slot.
I'm honestly confused.

Also on rethinking of the Dunn v FB, I think that Dunn's vote was justified. On the other hand, FB's scumcase is based on something that IS scummy on Dunn's part, but could easily be pushed by scum and therefore doesn't warrant a TR on FB.
Therefore I am no longer TRing FB for pushing Dunn, and am gonna probably vote FB (after I finish the catchup).
For noe though I'll UNVOTE:

@Feysal, I read your case on FB and I agree that their push on Dunn is scummy.
VOTE: Firebringer

This progression is what I found to be really bad.

oki, thanks for clarifying

I understand what you mean cause one of main reasons I find him scummy is this exact same progression too

[Frozen Angel]

I think the purpose was to add to the fuel without committing to a side of that convo and wherever coin flips go with it.

How would you have felt about my questions if I asked them later and not in the middle of it? Your issue seems to be the timing of my posts and not the actual questions themselves

its not about timing but timing matters too for sure

I didn't get this feeling that you asked those questions to get "answers" but to imply ideas without committing to them.

[Frozen Angel]

I see. Well I was implying ideas without committing to them. That's generally why people ask questions

huh?

you ask questions to find out something/about what you don't have an idea about

not when you wanna suggest an idea to someone else. well you can use questions for that in general but its more of a scum mind set utility to imply a read without committing to it. specially when others are in the middle of an argument about it.

[Frozen Angel]

I wokr up today with a horrible headache. I'll catch up and check out the game later in afternoon

[Frozen Angel]

FA I want to prioritize reading over your posts and your ISO reads but I may not get around to that today

no rush but still waiting for this black

But I like that Klick thinks that I'm scummy

why?

I agree black deflected the question but I also agree that koba asking about FB is kinda weird

This is exactly how I was feeling of that exchange.

Thanks for acknowledging that you're being and asshole towards me, everything makes much more sense now. Have a good one

even though black is straight up deflecting pink here and not engaging with him to reevaluate him, I find it also weird that pink ball is so obsessed with blacks sr on him when the scumread was on him since the start of game. like the logic behind this emotion here doesn't make sense.

maybe exaggerating anger so it could be a motivation for black to change attidue? I don't find this neccessirly scummy but I feel a bit of a manipulation involved in emotion.

Wait... Black, what did you meant with that emoji

I take that back. I think he legit felt black is dismissing his "advise" and got pissed but then thought to himself "did he or did he mean he is noting it"

so emotion feel legit actually

Guys I re-read FB vs Dunn and honestly I've been scumreading both, but now I want to individually TR each one of them for making a good push on a scummy slot.
I'm honestly confused.

Going for dun as his questions were not hitting anything - makes sense as a read but his way of backing off from that is him trying to stay in a safe position with both slots he had been uncomfortable with. Not neccessirly distancing scum, can be distancing town but its definitely distancing, as if he would want the slots sorted he would probably ask questions of each or try and engage with each/iso read their past posts, make actual assessments about each individual - instead of just saying they both are scum read of his but he town read them for going after each other at same time.

Also on rethinking of the Dunn v FB, I think that Dunn's vote was justified. On the other hand, FB's scumcase is based on something that IS scummy on Dunn's part, but could easily be pushed by scum and therefore doesn't warrant a TR on FB.
Therefore I am no longer TRing FB for pushing Dunn, and am gonna probably vote FB (after I finish the catchup).
For noe though I'll UNVOTE:

again distancing. his two scum read changed to two town read but "those two town read are actually right about what they found scummy on other slot" this is not really being an assertive mindset. Its just going with both flows.

What is "distancing town"?

No action is inherently done by town or scum. Town can also decide to get away from something or someone if they feel they need to or want to. in that context a town!dragon could hypothetically been trying to engage with your argument/not finding a proper way and deciding to back off to let it resolve by others/on its own. so it could have been town distancing from the argument and not necessarily scum side lining it.

I just think this when seen in a pattern with all other stuff makes more sense to be from a scum!dragon

[Frozen Angel]

I will continue to assert that I was not angry. And I disagree that I am "too aggressive" in post 68

again, maybe "angry" is not the correct description. Lets just say "the emotion" as I can't describe what I mean with a proper adjective.

Me insisting that Firebringer provide an answer does not mean I am mad or getting emotional. I prefer the word "assertive" as I wasn't willing to let the point go.

yes you were not

Xof also says that he vibes with PB's thoughts on FA. The fight between Klick and FA was needlessly mean. Xof townreads Klick.

It certainly wasn't. I won't let

anyone

discredit me as an excuse to drop a random lazy vote on me and then refuse to engage with me about it. I regret nothing about showing my anger regarding that.

I will wait for your review on dragon eater

[Frozen Angel]

My thoughts on 1137 which is FA talking about Dragoneater:
I don't understand how you get to "dragoneater can be distancing town" - is that not a mafia strategy? Why would he be doing that as town?
You make it a point to point out that Dragoneater is not being assertive, but I don't think that is a mafia tell. It is more of a personality tell, I feel. Though saying that they are appealing could be a mafia tell.
"He is not solving" - that actually might be the case. I remember people pointed out that he only does things when others prod him to do so.

I explained "distancing town" choice of word above.

anyways I think dragon eater is self conscious in a scummy way, is side fencing on arguments, going with the flow on different reads even if its in direct paradox with "what supposed to be his mindset and thought process" and that he dropped some reads/votes without investigating the details just to sheep others. all these little dots together means he is having a scum mindset (that is more about his own survival and manipulating perceptions) when he is dealing with the game than one that is for solving. hence I scum read this slot.

1139; FA talking about Titus:
I disagree that Titus asking a question about a meta read is "very towny". This isn't difficult to do as mafia, I feel.
Yes you are right that Titus has not conversed with you and the vote doesn't really make sense. See the above point and think about motivations again: She isn't trying to sort you, she is potentially looking for a reason to jump on wagon (this is if you are town and she is mafia)
I disagree with you settling at a town read as I don't think your analysis shows that except for the first point which I disagree with.

I think she wanted to dig deeper into the read and didn't want to just take klick's take there on face-value to accept/reject it. I think in general and in past titus doesn't have a good record for solving me (or I might be assuming wrong, idk I don't have the data to back this up we played like a thousand games) and i don't remember her ever using meta for reading me herself. I feel she had been depending on others trying to meta me few times though and made her own links after this was initiated by them to evaluate those reads.

again this is my impression based on what I remember barely in my head or how I felt about titus based on games we played what? like 4 to 6 years ago so its not really data driven.

I still think the general attempt for digging deeper on that meta read is more town driven than scum driven yet its still easily fakeable by scum who find an easy way to frame me. but I lean on first for titus.

[Frozen Angel]

1140 FA talking about Me:
Disagreements aside, you appear to be trying to figure out my motives with the emotion talk.
You seem to think assertive = town again, which I don't agree with the premise of.
Response to 755 is fair in that it could be that you were going off of something sus Dragoneater did instead of being reactionary against someone who would vote you.
I wouldn't say I am indecisive about Titus. I don't think that my post about Titus being unfair makes any assumptions that Titus has to be town to do so.

In general I don't find any action or reaction or behavior towny or scummy standalone. same goes for being "assertive". but this is inherently a town tell as town tries to figure stuff out and assert why scum intends to fake reaching conclusions to set stuff up "in general".

so when I am writing stuff that I see during an iso read or in general, I'm just noting down stuff - not necessarily saying people are town or scum for it. They only are town or scum if the pattern of those tells/notes make more sense in a scum or town mind set.

In your case, I felt the assertive attidue is pretty hungry for solve and not really steering toward certain reads that an informed scum perspective would, so I leaned town on that behavior.

In general, I don't think you're treating titus the same way you're treating other slots in game and it's weird in personality perspective. I think You explained why you scumread titus and you're even making linked reads with her being scum and you being certain of that side of link, yet you're not willing to case her and elaborate your scum read on titus. undecisive is probably not the best way to explain it, dismotivated or not as hungry to grab a bite of this read is a better way to explaining it I hope lmao

so you just calling her unfair and not scum/not questioning her harder on her black read is what I find unfitting

regardless that's my take on your titus read and it just doesn't fit with rest of pattern I noted about you which is the worrisome/unsettling part about your iso for me.

[Frozen Angel]

1141 FA talking about Save The Dragons:
I don't think that "consistent method for catching up" warrants anything more than a null read.
The rest is mostly asking questions and wondering why Save The Dragons scumreads you.
Oh and you do acknowledge that "consistent flow" is not AI, Not sure why you are wanting to call them slight town then...? Though you end up at null.

I usually lean toward town on my null reads. innocent till proven guilty. I just find it hard to find anything on players like save the dragon who barely talk about anything but I didn't find anything unsettling and whole thing feels natural so a meh null tr was that way more close to null - with a lot of uncertainty involved. I cant make a proper read on these players in general till later days.

I really really liked his response later to my iso reads btw, explaining why he voted me and what he was after. it really felt honest.

1143FA talking about Drixx:
There's that word again, "consistent". I feel that you are off base when you say this.
Saying Drixx feels defensive is a fair point that you back up by saying Save The Dragons has no reasoning.

So let me explain what I mean when use that word.

players move from point A to point B to point C during the game. when I say consistent I don't mean A=B=C. I actually mean how they got from A to B is very similar in nature to how they got from B to C.

by nature we can consider personality, logic, general behaviors, how reactionary someone is, how mathematical someone is, how confident someone is, ...

why does this matter? when a scum is trying to force a result they manipulate their own emotions/supposable thought process/tools to get what they want out of stuff. for example dropping an omgus vote can be done by town or scum, but a player who is reactionary against player A but is pretty chill when player B does something warns informed perspective (and it becomes more of a sign of it when this behavioral dishonesty happens more often)

[Frozen Angel]

General question for Frozen angel before I go whip out my notepad and start giving some ~analysis~ of her posts to explain my read or maybe my read will flip midway or w/e.
Maybe its because im in the backburner for you pressure wise, but i think i never ever explained my read on you. Yet i don't think theres once u asked me explicitly to explain.

Now maybe its cause u townread me and u don't care. I don't know. Doesn't seem like thats something you would want to dig into unless you felt very comfortable with your read on me. I mean, someone calls me scum and i can't see why and im not strong on them i do wonder why.

But i digress. I should get out the notepad and get going. I also have like other games to read and shit.

I questioned

everyone

who were voting me and asked multiple times for people to engage with me about my reads. That clearly includes you too. I said you wont get anything out of me or anyone else voting me without explaining why you scumread me or by dropping random baseless votes.

what I read you is a town lean on my skim, and I do care about helping you and all other players to see me as town as much as I care about sucm hunting so I will definitely engage with people who try to communicate with me instead of just dropping a naked vote or call sr and move on from me. but I wont be wasting time chasing all lazy town one by one to ask their reads on me when they can just answer I'm sheeping he or she and throw me in a loop that goes nowhere. instead i use my time more efficiently digging deeper in game/fixing my reads and find people who would ask me questions/wanna engage with me.

Spoiler: Frozen Angel the Firebringer Notes of Destiny

100 posts woah. Okay i am only taking notes on like a quarter of these or half at most. No way i get to them all. Lets go through them and give some thoughts.

329 I didn't like FA calling my early stuff try hard. I think she later explained this as something else.
330 I feel like this isn't really a town question Frozen angel asks. The framing is why wouldn't scum desire to open like dragoneater and im just feeling meh. But i guess the i will write this off as NAI.
336 like the questioning of klick i think here
349 at first i didn't like FA agreeing with my post here but i feel more favorable to it in hindsight.

okay im like only a 1/3 through this iso. I feel more like FA town. Idk. Her thought process seems more clear to me now then before. It felt pretty fake and manufactured in the moment but seeing the whole it looks better

Maybe the only thing i don't like about FA is how fast the switch on Feysal played out?


i feel like this game is going to take a lot of my weekend.

I have a very different dictionary and vocab use than most people. by try hard I didn't mean you were forcing stuff. I mean you were trying hard to have posts/closing rvs/getting early reactions/seeing what dunn was about/testing the waters i don't know the exact motivation, but the jump on dunn felt like you were trying hard to do more at that time and I actually town leaned on that on first impression.

dragon eater post about how he doesn't like your RP and voting you was completely NAI in RVS stage on its own and the town read on it is very lame. Its such a random reason and random vote and there is absolutely no substance in it that can ever trace back to them if they dropped it as a scum.

the main thing i was worried about on feysel was that, are they a player with this town mindset t think about breaking the game outright? would they be faking such attidue as scum? and I think its very important to figure that out and I'm shocked no one else went on that avenue. some just called feysel town cause of it and moved on (from which I find GIF suspicious on the skim cause I remember their post) and titus did it too but hers felt more natural. I will try and iso feysel later today or max tomorrow.

[Frozen Angel]

I don't really feel like playing today, but I've seen StD and FA both say it seemed like I was deflecting Koba's question last night so I'll try to explain, because I don't see it as deflecting in any way

I originally misread PB's 1375 as Koba wanting me to dive into FB's ISO like I said I wanted to do earlier in the day. To me this felt like Koba was trying to shade me by saying I still haven't done what I said I was gonna do, and I felt the motivation behind this was to make me look bad and get me off of PB for a moment

This is pretty apparent when you read my 1381 and 1382

I didn't think Koba was asking what my FB read was because I've mentioned my FB read a few times already, and I assumed if Koba was scumreading me they would've been keeping up with the game enough to know where I stand on FB. I say this in 1396

So StD/FA, can you explain why you think I was deflecting here? And what would my motivation for not saying my FB read be if you truly believe I was trying to deflect?

It just felt like you were set on your own path in that convo and even though PB appealed multiple time to change course and discuss this or that you wanted to stay on what you were saying from before/effectively shutting him down in that argument

The "tell me your read on this random slot that has nothing to do with this argument" was really out of place by pinkball/his teammate guess makes more sense if it really came of his team mate and he wanted to share their opinion in moment cause it had nothing to do with that convo.

You also gave no reason for why you scumread PB. youdid vote him for him not sharing his dragoneater read but why is it scummy? you said the reason you scumread pb now is changed from why you were scumreading him before. this is still not enough info and you were asked about it in that convo too didn't elaborate

[Frozen Angel]

Dragoneater, I still feel he's town. I liked the way he decided to put his money where his mouth is with his vote on me. He's not familiar with my socratic, trapping style. If he's scum, I see him with scum with Shea Dunn or Black only as they were the ones I was disputing.

I like binning ppl as town and I'm real reluctant to go back on a TR without strong evidence.

I feel DragonEater70 wagon is an attempt to save FA.

Lovely that you say that cause I was feeling strongly the resistance on forming dragon eater wagon and my wagon is to save him.

[Frozen Angel]

I don't think you understand. This looks like the same thing Save the Dragons said about my posts, about them sounding highly edited, as if I was trying to hide my true thoughts and feelings. Your posts sound well reasoned and thought out, but some people want to see an emotional response. I don't know if Klick was trying to elicit one from you, but looks like he just did.

I'm fine with people looking for different things to sort. but calling my posts soulless or inconclusive was just discrediting them which caused me to have a more emotional response.

this is a little bit different from how save the dragon called your posts too edited tbh, because that means he is acknowledging your work and thinks you're spending too much time making them appear better which is a trait for looking better. not saying I don't think its scummy personally. I'm just saying its a bit different than what klick and thestatusqueue did last night about my reads.

[Frozen Angel]

Actually there's 40 new pages and it's a bit much, so I am going to just read the last 3 pages for now, then look at anything interesting that picks my interest.

can you read this post in particular and respond to my scum read on you when you have time

viewtopic.php?p=13743770#p13743770

[Frozen Angel]

I don't think you understand. This looks like the same thing Save the Dragons said about my posts, about them sounding highly edited, as if I was trying to hide my true thoughts and feelings. Your posts sound well reasoned and thought out, but some people want to see an emotional response. I don't know if Klick was trying to elicit one from you, but looks like he just did.

I'm fine with people looking for different things to sort. but calling my posts soulless or inconclusive was just discrediting them which caused me to have a more emotional response.

this is a little bit different from how save the dragon called your posts too edited tbh, because that means he is acknowledging your work and thinks you're spending too much time making them appear better which is a trait for looking better. not saying I don't think its scummy personally. I'm just saying its a bit different than what klick and thestatusqueue did last night about my reads.

not saying i think it's scummy personally.*

I meant

[Frozen Angel]

Titus have you had time to read my iso as you said you would?

can you elaborate why you even scumread me?

[Frozen Angel]

I saw PBs large wall on dragoneater but I had migraine all day today, so I'll check that and DE's response to stuff tomorrow.

I think DEr ignored me asking him to react to my case on him which I hope he fixes by the time I go back to game tomorrow

night all

[Frozen Angel]

I had become so busy irl today that I didn't have time for anything but I skimmed the game

@dragon eater the post is this I also linked to it last night but you ignored me completely in between conversing with others

Spoiler: the post

Alright, you're about to see a bunch of long wall posts as I will iso-hunt different slots of this game. so far I've been basically skimming the game/even my catch up as this is the first day I actually have time to do some surgery in game. Regardless I'm gonna start with the slot that stood out most to me on the skim. so if you don't like wall posts skip to the ---- part at end of each post where I explain my general impression on each slot.

VOTE: Firebringer
I really don't enjoy their entrance and I dare say it's possibly scummy.

This is the first notable read made by slot. Need to note it down.

Wait is this going to be the first game where I am being consensus townread on page 2?
Rather than consensus scumread on that page, that is.

This self awareness is actually not fitting with what I remember of dragon eater form the game I modded and they played it or the other games I saw them in previously. In the other game they even had a guilty and were not safe aware about how and when to drop it in thread. They didn't "care" as much about how they were perceived by other slots is what I feel. so this as his first posts in this game, feels so different personality-wise.

Guys I re-read FB vs Dunn and honestly I've been scumreading both, but now I want to individually TR each one of them for making a good push on a scummy slot.
I'm honestly confused.

Going for dun as his questions were not hitting anything - makes sense as a read but his way of backing off from that is him trying to stay in a safe position with both slots he had been uncomfortable with. Not neccessirly distancing scum, can be distancing town but its definitely distancing, as if he would want the slots sorted he would probably ask questions of each or try and engage with each/iso read their past posts, make actual assessments about each individual - instead of just saying they both are scum read of his but he town read them for going after each other at same time.

Also on rethinking of the Dunn v FB, I think that Dunn's vote was justified. On the other hand, FB's scumcase is based on something that IS scummy on Dunn's part, but could easily be pushed by scum and therefore doesn't warrant a TR on FB.
Therefore I am no longer TRing FB for pushing Dunn, and am gonna probably vote FB (after I finish the catchup).
For noe though I'll UNVOTE:

again distancing. his two scum read changed to two town read but "those two town read are actually right about what they found scummy on other slot" this is not really being an assertive mindset. Its just going with both flows.

VOTE: Firebringer
I really don't enjoy their entrance and I dare say it's possibly scummy.

why?

Their roleplay was triggering my PTSD from scum-spam in your Demon Hunter game. It felt like unnecessarily drawn out fluff that didn't help us get out of RVS and that was actually hindering us from having a readable thread.

Where did FB do RP in the other game. They posted lot of fluff and open wolfed but never saw them RP there? I think this justifies the first read dropped though in a sense, if its gut based and based on the exp of demon slayer game (not trusting FB fluffing in general) so consistency points for this

oh and I think there is a good chance FB dun was tvt and feysel freaked when FB called out its possibility and went after feysel instead somewhere in those pages.

I actually agree with you on it possibly being tvt

full back off on the they might be right about each other, appealing to me making this read

Okay I just read through Klick's ISO, and initially it felt a bit weird:
It is kinda weird that Klick gave like 4 townreads with minimal explanation and no scumreads. It feels very easy to fake, I guess. And none of their posts really stood out for me at the start.

But then I continued reading and I saw those posts, which have a genuine town mindset IMO:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Firebringer
I really don't enjoy their entrance and I dare say it's possibly scummy.

You're probably town!

super why?

This doesn't feel at all like the desired opening play for scum

I've played like 3ish games in a row with Titus where she has been scum and in this game I'm getting a zeal from her that I haven't felt in other games. I think she's engaged her town solving brain in a way that she wasn't quite there for in the last few games I've been in with her.

It could be Team Mafia making her tryhard even if she's scum but I'm enjoying her content so far regardless and am fine to boost what she's currently doing for the thread.

From where I'm at right now FA feels very similar to Cosmos where she was scum though

Go on please.

It's not a very strongly formed thought
But the basic idea is that in Cosmos I felt like FA's approach was largely to question other people's takes as a means to develop her own view of the game and make it look genuine
It's different from a town approach in terms of motive for posting; the whole point of what FA was doing in Cosmos felt like it was to look town through having considered and nuanced takes that were developed by sort of hijacking other players' genuine thoughts and critiquing them
And here it feels very similar, I feel like almost everything FA has done has been a critique of another original perspective with only a couple of reads originating from something she has brought up herself

It all fits under this umbrella idea of 'I think FA wants to look town right now rather than actually doing town things'

Let's dive deeper. What reads feel sourced from FA? A sample that doesn't?

I felt it most strongly in her interaction with me. 336 particularly alerted me to this as a concept:

Because people like you aren't going to like it!

why do you think I disliked it? I just noted its existence. it doesn't give me any kind of info either way. that's why asked about what was behind the post in his thought process

I actually have more read on your tr on it than I have on the original read itself. (leaning toward the dislike category)

pedit: his going after blue for the titus thingy was what I called try harding on page 2 IMO I don't care about his rp

It's high-detail, specifically contradicts assumptions I made about her perspective, and develops what appears to be a nuanced take on both myself and DragonEater without doing the heavy lifting. I remember her doing something that made me feel very similar to this in Cosmos. Let me go find it

viewtopic.php?p=13538654#p13538654

I'd like to quote that post but I can't quite make it happen, idk whether I just am not able to quote from locked threads at all or if it's a mobile-specific issue

It's not an exact match to what I'm describing here, but basically I made an assumption based on VCA, and FA used it as a means of discrediting what I was saying while developing her own read on me as well as the situation without adding much genuine original thought outside of detailed analysis of my own thought.
The same sort of thing happened in her early-game argument with STD, in their conversation about 'shading'. This is probably a better example of it, it happened in like the first 10ish pages of that game.

341 feels similar. Lots of critical thought in a very focused way towards specific details of Feysal's 97. She gives the appearance of a nuanced perspective but it's limited to what she could derive from 97 itself, and I think the projection of nuance could be intentional.


I actually fairly like FA's last two posts as counterexamples of this - they contain clear general conclusions based on the things she's been talking about. The add-on in 361 a minute and a half later feels kind of like legitimate thought. But I want more of that from her.

So I am actually going to say Klick is a townlean of mine (and I was also convinced by their case that FA is scummy here).

"these posts come from a town mind set" is not assertive either. its appealing. (though klick is really hunting stuff/being assertive in those posts so I agree with the read).

But the second line is not something he should have said on klick read. klick posted a meta read on those posts he himself had doubts on, the meta read he posted is really focused on a behavior than anything else and he didn't try to assert if meta read is sufficient or correct on that channel and he doesn't have any kind of vision about how I play scum like klick does = hence I think its just a try for appeal to klick in this post than a real scum read.

hence why i asked him to explain klicks case in his own words at the time, which he ghosted on that request so far.

Also Klick, your readlist is so interesting to me. Why am I in first place? And why is GiF so low?

why so self-conscious? Dragon eater is not searching and being assertive, he is just going with the flow and being self councious

Ugh god I really don't like dragon's response there

vote: Dragon

Not to reiterate the things that Shea just said, but I do agree with him on this. You never once questioned four people calling you town seemingly with no good reason. And then calling yourself limbait, ehhhhhhh

Just feels like a way to preliminary poo-poo a wagon on you

Read my completed games - I've been called limbait several times on D1, different games.

This just doesn't make sense as a response. he didnt ask if people calling yourself limbait is a typical thing or even you being a limbait is a typical thing. he is saying you're not questioning people town reading you to assert them. (intrestingly you just did question one close to this post - so it seems you read this issue with your playing style and went and tried to remedy that before even responding to this post). and you not trying to assert people who town read you, means your self awareness is not for sorting people who make reads about you and its just for your positioning in game - which is more fitting for a scum mind set.

You being a limbait usually is completely irrelivent

@Feysal, I read your case on FB and I agree that their push on Dunn is scummy.
VOTE: Firebringer

After going with my read on FB dunn, he went with another appealing over assertion and went with feysel case on FB and went back to voting FB

------------------------------

Dragon eater is scummy. He is just not solving. He is incredibly self aware but not the type who want to assert why people have reads on him/just about people having reads on him - he is flip flopping on FB dun case with every read others make - he is appealing to "hotter" cases people post without asserting the cases. = he wants to have reads more than he wants to find the reads = he is probably informed and is just working on his own position in game than solving.

lets please have more votes on dragoneater.

but I'm waiting patiently for you to actually address my case on you

[Frozen Angel]

I have extremly mixed feelings about GIF wagon,

maybe mainly cause I want to see dragon eater pushed even further and cause I think they are scum being saved more than I town read GIF.

also regarding the setup spec, as a mech player and someone who passionately enjoy designing new mech and setups, I think we have to mass claim at least actions/who we targeted tomorrow if not roles. so whenever in later days we wanted to put on all actions together and mass claim, we have target info in a fixed state. cause roles to get confirmed in this setup so knowing actions pinpoint scum. Not sure if mass claiming roles is a good idea cause we don't know what kind of roles scum might have to manipulate the roles and it can help them escape a mass claim trap in later days. in addition, it can also manipulate the actions people gonna cast cause it will be easier to observe the roles in game specially as the game goes on.

I also get why titus thinks it causes a toxic environment that might cause scum to block scum hunting and push people for mech hunting when an early mass claim happens. regardless mech is info still and cant be ignored specially in a unique setup like this.

[Frozen Angel]

GIF why do you scumread me?

[Frozen Angel]

drixx vs std tells me almost absolutely nothing about either of them. I don't think std is scummy for feeling iffy about drixx and not wagoining him as drixx expects him too nor I think drixx is scummy for wanting std to wagon him properly or back off. so I'll stick with my reads from before with both though I think std earns few town points for explaining his reason for voting me earlier

I still feel uneasy that drixx is so hyper focused on STD and specially STD's read on him when STD dropped reads like that on everyone.

[Frozen Angel]

I still feel uneasy that drixx is so hyper focused on STD and specially STD's read on him when STD dropped reads like that on everyone.

I don't feel like STD really explained much of that reads list that was posted. Focusing on the "read" on me is just step one. If we're able to engage on that, I can get a better feel and then it matters more what reasons put the other people where they are.

Do you understand why I would start with getting clarity on myself?

I understand why logically you would focus on his read on you first

regardless I just can't help but feel uneasy about you not generalizing your concern after all those discussions though. like it's just bugging me when I read the discussion. lets keep it at that for now and not consider it AI neccessirly

[Frozen Angel]

I'll catch up in a second but I want to late out more nuanced thoughts on massclaim first.

Proposition 1: Massclaim all roles and actions every day.

Assumption: Roles stay the same day to day.
Pro: We know exactly what roles are in the game or there is scum in the VT claimers.
Pro: Scum find it harder to fake claim.
Con: A smart scumteam can still fake claim existing roles to complicate things.
Con: The scumteam know the exact capabilities of town any given day and have perfect planning for night actions. They have at least 12 people to come up with the perfect mechanical solution.

Assumption: Roles can change day to day. (Meaning a tracker shows up where none existed, cop removed, modifiers added etc.)
Mass claim every day for the prior night just becomes the smart play as past roles cannot determine future actions.

Proposition 2: Claim only roles with guilties or innos, successful protections, kills (vigilante, PGO etc) and negative utility roles (Alien/Commuter/Compulsive).
Pro: We gain information that is necessary in the short term.
Pro: Scum don't know what protectives are in the game (Doc, jailkeeper, bulletproof etc) until a kill is successfully blocked.
Pro: Scum can't night plan around what they don't know exists unless they roll it themselves some night.
Neutral: We can't dictate every single action. I find this a pro as we can't force a particular action so mech talk is less.
Neutral: Scum can fake claim, but they'd have to rely upon the prior holder being dead as an excuse. They run the risk of CCing a townie who is alive. (Assumption: Roles don't rerand.)

Unrelated Mech note
Follow the innocent is a thing in this game. If there is a cop, they check someone. Then someone else checks that cop. We hope to hit town. If we always hit town, then scum become boxed in. Suppose the following, Adam is town. Adam checks Brian who is town. Charlie then randoms cop. Charlie checks Brian who is town. That means if Charlie dies after his result and flips town both Adam and Brian are conftown.

This mechanic likely won't work if scum know what protectives are in the game as they could counter it.

I'm strongly in favor of proposition 2.

proposition 3: Massclaim who everyone targeted without claiming action. or claim not targeting anyone. This sets up the ground for a mass claim on later phases where scum might get caught in a lie.
Pro: No one will know what roles was used by who so existance of town utility will stay hidden from scum (unless if they have investigation roles to search for some utility on their own)
Pro: People cant change their claims later on when they have more info about existing roles in setup. This makes it hard for people to find a fake claim that fits the narrative.
Natural: This has same natural status as proposition 2.

I really think we need to claim targets every day and not necessarily the roles themselves. This setup requires a mass claim on later days probably and claiming targets can trap people in certain narratives where scum gets caught regardless - and still people will have the freedom to use their roles as they see fit.

[Frozen Angel]

Whats the rule of 3??

I'm shocked you don't remember this. Anytime a scum mentions three or more slots, there's a likelihood one of them is scum. In this case, there would be a scum in the green names, a scum in the light green names, and a scum in the yellow names. This would suggest that one of my SRs on Black or Drixx is wrong. I'd likely change over to an FA/Black or Drixx/Keysal based on interactions. (I'm supposing 4 scum).

It's not absolute as the GiF partner is a decent theory. However, it could be a whiteknight pocket. Based on the rule of 3, I'd just exclude or investigate GiF after a Klick flip.

are these linked reads assuming klick is scum?

pedit: that's a given, guilties and innoes must always be claimed anyway

[Frozen Angel]

FA, will you join me on Klick or are you deadset on DragonEater? I don't like Klick's trajectory on DragonEater which gives me real reservations.

I have some mixed feelings about Klick that makes me wanna iso dive him.

some stuff I find towny:
- him linking something he sees in this game with past experience with me, is showing they were really thinking about creating such link/our past experiences
- him asking repeatedly about how they can solve me and checking how I'm doing things to match with it and seeing if I'm lying about it

some stuff concern me:
- them misrepping my reads/efforts and then trying to shut me down arguing against it - but finally saying it was to get a substantial read from me without really digging into why they ever says they think I don't believe my reads (essentially dodging that question all over that discussion) I don't think it was a reaction test as they tried to show it at end so I'm concerned.
- them not going on gif/dropping a question while having them as scum and going on DE (which is a wagon I endorse) without a substantial reasons as you mentioned. I'm not a fan of linked reads but in my head its just a bit odd cause he cased me so hard to vote me and did absolutely nothing to vote DE which is a contrast.

so on a skim level I'm torn about what I wanna do regarding klick and what's my current read on the slot

[Frozen Angel]

@FA I don’t. I believe I literally voted you just for wagon sake last time

sure,

why are you still voting me when I'm no longer a wagon? Don't you have any scum reads of your own to be voting?

[Frozen Angel]

FA, if you're still here, I'd like to discuss worlds with you.

I don't see DragonEater as scum unless it's with Drixx who is positioning to have his proposition go through and to remove criticism at the same time.

Meanwhile I have major reservations on Klick based on the last few pages.
First, he didn't vote the GiF wagon despite GiF being low on his reads.
Second, he voted for DragonEater with very little progression or rationale for doing so.
Third, his spat feels very artificial (weakest point).

It lends some credence to the Klick + GiF theory. However, it's not my favorite. My favorite is that Klick wants to oppose kuribo because he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar fishing and forgot about GiF as a scumread or wanted to save it for later. So he tries to push over the major wagon.

So worlds
DragonEater + Drixx
Klick + GiF,/Dunn/Black or Drixx
Klick/Dunn/Black or Drixx/Feysal <--- this one is the most likely if Drixx is town.

I'm here in background - multitasking basically with work so I read new stuff that gets posted for rest of night before I sleep

I really think I need to dig deeper for evaluating klick. like i saw him doing some ++ stuff that are evaluation on a town mindset (but still fakable as scum) and stuff that are -- and just fit for a scum mindset (but can be done by a town being lazy (?), opportunistic (?), testing the water (?))

idk if it makes sense but that's how I see klick rn.

I'm really not a fan of linking reads in day 1 but I can see universes all those reads work, maybe beside the last line cause I cant see the links at all and you need to explain.

my issue is I can see another universe in which DE is scum and you're advertising for a wagon on me and GIF and now klick is a way to strong arm a miselim and save the less active buddy on day 1.

this is why i prefer to solo scum/town read people on day 1 and avoid linking my reads till I have more info on at least one side of that "link"

[Frozen Angel]

can you elaborate why you town read DE titus?

[Frozen Angel]

I just cant follow all your theories titus. I don't get why you were scum reading me and why you were confident DE's wagon is a distraction from my wagon and not vice versa. I still don't know why you town read DE and I don't know why you chose GIF to push after me.

so its a bit hard for me to follow your initiative, even though upon my iso dive on you I found your initiative overall towny for your specific playstyle as I mentioned before.

so it will really help if you just point at stuff you seeing on each slot so I can analyze and follow your thinking process over them.

[Frozen Angel]

FA, are you asking for a readwall? I tend to read players in relation to each other. I no longer think DE was a wagon to save you. While it's a remote possibility, I would not expected to see the game stagnate with no one pushing that hard for either wagon (PB excluded but he was for DE).

GiF push was a meh it's possible, my townreads are okay with it and it got the game moving. We need 8 to lim and can't get above 4 because everyone has their pet project. It's like herding cats.

DE was my first real townread. If you look at the first 5 pages, I lay it out there.

nah not read wall, just like being pointed in directions so I can follow your thought process better.

I honestly don't see how what was in first 5 pages made you think they are almost "conf town" the way you treated them later on during game. though you retracted from that stance now at this time.

I understand your intention for getting some wagons going, I just am curios if there was more for the choices you had for wagoning than just that.

[Frozen Angel]

Part of me think Frozen angel should be hard townreading Klick for how Klick didn't do anything in Demons Mafia. But another part of me thinks maybe im just thinking too superficially on Klick scum game and FA thinks more highly. The way FA has put reads on klick feels a bit off to me given she modded that game. Saw the scum chat, saw how Klick was just not interested in it. Then comes to this game and doesn't point it out or mention it?

Feels a bit strange. But hey i never pointed out demon slayer meta explanation either. So there could be reasons this never crossed her mind or she thought not to mention it.

klick didn't do "anything" in that game to the point that klickwork was basically alisae only.

so why would I assume something based on a game he didn't play at all?

[Frozen Angel]

like there wasnt a single klickwork post in that game made by klick nor he posted anything substantial in sucm chat. the slot was alisae only.

are you trying to say klick abanden games completely when randing scum with a pattern?

[Frozen Angel]

I can see ways for masons to work in a setup like this. explains why kuribo was angry about being forced to claim in that fashion when he wasn't even a wagon.

and I trust it completely cause I think kuribo is town anyway.

[Frozen Angel]

klick didn't do "anything" in that game to the point that klickwork was basically alisae only.

so why would I assume something based on a game he didn't play at all?

because clearly from that i would take that as an example of klick not feeling comfortable as scum.....

Not playing a game in its entirety can just mean they were busy or something irl came up or whatever. that's how I had that flagged in my mind anyway. its not like they were playing and being uncomfortable (showing that) for me to make a link like that.

but that's good to know about klick

do you think scum!klick is capable of making a 180 on reads to associate with a wagon in general os is more conservative and careful in nature?

[Frozen Angel]

I've been holding off on voting DragonEater because I didn't want him to feel pressured after just coming back from a v/la and wanted him to have time to respond to stuff. But I feel that he's not really interested in doing that and I think this makes them more likely to be mafia.

Specifically I am thinking about way back when FA asked DragonEater to explain why they agreed with Klick's suspicion on FA in their own words. And then I asked them that again when they came back and FA linked them to their own questions but he never acknowledged me or answered FA.

VOTE: DragonEater

This btw. I'm feeling I'm being outright ignored at this point. He came back to thread I almost instantly linked to my case on him. he asked link me to case before leaving the game for night. I did so again in morning and he is vanished still.

Like he was online at same time as me when I asked the question and linked to my case when he came back.

[Frozen Angel]

Actually there's 40 new pages and it's a bit much, so I am going to just read the last 3 pages for now, then look at anything interesting that picks my interest.

can you read this post in particular and respond to my scum read on you when you have time

viewtopic.php?p=13743770#p13743770

I saw PBs large wall on dragoneater but I had migraine all day today, so I'll check that and DE's response to stuff tomorrow.

I think DEr ignored me asking him to react to my case on him which I hope he fixes by the time I go back to game tomorrow

night all

I had become so busy irl today that I didn't have time for anything but I skimmed the game

@dragon eater the post is this I also linked to it last night but you ignored me completely in between conversing with others

Spoiler: the post

Alright, you're about to see a bunch of long wall posts as I will iso-hunt different slots of this game. so far I've been basically skimming the game/even my catch up as this is the first day I actually have time to do some surgery in game. Regardless I'm gonna start with the slot that stood out most to me on the skim. so if you don't like wall posts skip to the ---- part at end of each post where I explain my general impression on each slot.

VOTE: Firebringer
I really don't enjoy their entrance and I dare say it's possibly scummy.

This is the first notable read made by slot. Need to note it down.

Wait is this going to be the first game where I am being consensus townread on page 2?
Rather than consensus scumread on that page, that is.

This self awareness is actually not fitting with what I remember of dragon eater form the game I modded and they played it or the other games I saw them in previously. In the other game they even had a guilty and were not safe aware about how and when to drop it in thread. They didn't "care" as much about how they were perceived by other slots is what I feel. so this as his first posts in this game, feels so different personality-wise.

Guys I re-read FB vs Dunn and honestly I've been scumreading both, but now I want to individually TR each one of them for making a good push on a scummy slot.
I'm honestly confused.

Going for dun as his questions were not hitting anything - makes sense as a read but his way of backing off from that is him trying to stay in a safe position with both slots he had been uncomfortable with. Not neccessirly distancing scum, can be distancing town but its definitely distancing, as if he would want the slots sorted he would probably ask questions of each or try and engage with each/iso read their past posts, make actual assessments about each individual - instead of just saying they both are scum read of his but he town read them for going after each other at same time.

Also on rethinking of the Dunn v FB, I think that Dunn's vote was justified. On the other hand, FB's scumcase is based on something that IS scummy on Dunn's part, but could easily be pushed by scum and therefore doesn't warrant a TR on FB.
Therefore I am no longer TRing FB for pushing Dunn, and am gonna probably vote FB (after I finish the catchup).
For noe though I'll UNVOTE:

again distancing. his two scum read changed to two town read but "those two town read are actually right about what they found scummy on other slot" this is not really being an assertive mindset. Its just going with both flows.

VOTE: Firebringer
I really don't enjoy their entrance and I dare say it's possibly scummy.

why?

Their roleplay was triggering my PTSD from scum-spam in your Demon Hunter game. It felt like unnecessarily drawn out fluff that didn't help us get out of RVS and that was actually hindering us from having a readable thread.

Where did FB do RP in the other game. They posted lot of fluff and open wolfed but never saw them RP there? I think this justifies the first read dropped though in a sense, if its gut based and based on the exp of demon slayer game (not trusting FB fluffing in general) so consistency points for this

oh and I think there is a good chance FB dun was tvt and feysel freaked when FB called out its possibility and went after feysel instead somewhere in those pages.

I actually agree with you on it possibly being tvt

full back off on the they might be right about each other, appealing to me making this read

Okay I just read through Klick's ISO, and initially it felt a bit weird:
It is kinda weird that Klick gave like 4 townreads with minimal explanation and no scumreads. It feels very easy to fake, I guess. And none of their posts really stood out for me at the start.

But then I continued reading and I saw those posts, which have a genuine town mindset IMO:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Firebringer
I really don't enjoy their entrance and I dare say it's possibly scummy.

You're probably town!

super why?

This doesn't feel at all like the desired opening play for scum

I've played like 3ish games in a row with Titus where she has been scum and in this game I'm getting a zeal from her that I haven't felt in other games. I think she's engaged her town solving brain in a way that she wasn't quite there for in the last few games I've been in with her.

It could be Team Mafia making her tryhard even if she's scum but I'm enjoying her content so far regardless and am fine to boost what she's currently doing for the thread.

From where I'm at right now FA feels very similar to Cosmos where she was scum though

Go on please.

It's not a very strongly formed thought
But the basic idea is that in Cosmos I felt like FA's approach was largely to question other people's takes as a means to develop her own view of the game and make it look genuine
It's different from a town approach in terms of motive for posting; the whole point of what FA was doing in Cosmos felt like it was to look town through having considered and nuanced takes that were developed by sort of hijacking other players' genuine thoughts and critiquing them
And here it feels very similar, I feel like almost everything FA has done has been a critique of another original perspective with only a couple of reads originating from something she has brought up herself

It all fits under this umbrella idea of 'I think FA wants to look town right now rather than actually doing town things'

Let's dive deeper. What reads feel sourced from FA? A sample that doesn't?

I felt it most strongly in her interaction with me. 336 particularly alerted me to this as a concept:

Because people like you aren't going to like it!

why do you think I disliked it? I just noted its existence. it doesn't give me any kind of info either way. that's why asked about what was behind the post in his thought process

I actually have more read on your tr on it than I have on the original read itself. (leaning toward the dislike category)

pedit: his going after blue for the titus thingy was what I called try harding on page 2 IMO I don't care about his rp

It's high-detail, specifically contradicts assumptions I made about her perspective, and develops what appears to be a nuanced take on both myself and DragonEater without doing the heavy lifting. I remember her doing something that made me feel very similar to this in Cosmos. Let me go find it

viewtopic.php?p=13538654#p13538654

I'd like to quote that post but I can't quite make it happen, idk whether I just am not able to quote from locked threads at all or if it's a mobile-specific issue

It's not an exact match to what I'm describing here, but basically I made an assumption based on VCA, and FA used it as a means of discrediting what I was saying while developing her own read on me as well as the situation without adding much genuine original thought outside of detailed analysis of my own thought.
The same sort of thing happened in her early-game argument with STD, in their conversation about 'shading'. This is probably a better example of it, it happened in like the first 10ish pages of that game.

341 feels similar. Lots of critical thought in a very focused way towards specific details of Feysal's 97. She gives the appearance of a nuanced perspective but it's limited to what she could derive from 97 itself, and I think the projection of nuance could be intentional.


I actually fairly like FA's last two posts as counterexamples of this - they contain clear general conclusions based on the things she's been talking about. The add-on in 361 a minute and a half later feels kind of like legitimate thought. But I want more of that from her.

So I am actually going to say Klick is a townlean of mine (and I was also convinced by their case that FA is scummy here).

"these posts come from a town mind set" is not assertive either. its appealing. (though klick is really hunting stuff/being assertive in those posts so I agree with the read).

But the second line is not something he should have said on klick read. klick posted a meta read on those posts he himself had doubts on, the meta read he posted is really focused on a behavior than anything else and he didn't try to assert if meta read is sufficient or correct on that channel and he doesn't have any kind of vision about how I play scum like klick does = hence I think its just a try for appeal to klick in this post than a real scum read.

hence why i asked him to explain klicks case in his own words at the time, which he ghosted on that request so far.

Also Klick, your readlist is so interesting to me. Why am I in first place? And why is GiF so low?

why so self-conscious? Dragon eater is not searching and being assertive, he is just going with the flow and being self councious

Ugh god I really don't like dragon's response there

vote: Dragon

Not to reiterate the things that Shea just said, but I do agree with him on this. You never once questioned four people calling you town seemingly with no good reason. And then calling yourself limbait, ehhhhhhh

Just feels like a way to preliminary poo-poo a wagon on you

Read my completed games - I've been called limbait several times on D1, different games.

This just doesn't make sense as a response. he didnt ask if people calling yourself limbait is a typical thing or even you being a limbait is a typical thing. he is saying you're not questioning people town reading you to assert them. (intrestingly you just did question one close to this post - so it seems you read this issue with your playing style and went and tried to remedy that before even responding to this post). and you not trying to assert people who town read you, means your self awareness is not for sorting people who make reads about you and its just for your positioning in game - which is more fitting for a scum mind set.

You being a limbait usually is completely irrelivent

@Feysal, I read your case on FB and I agree that their push on Dunn is scummy.
VOTE: Firebringer

After going with my read on FB dunn, he went with another appealing over assertion and went with feysel case on FB and went back to voting FB

------------------------------

Dragon eater is scummy. He is just not solving. He is incredibly self aware but not the type who want to assert why people have reads on him/just about people having reads on him - he is flip flopping on FB dun case with every read others make - he is appealing to "hotter" cases people post without asserting the cases. = he wants to have reads more than he wants to find the reads = he is probably informed and is just working on his own position in game than solving.

lets please have more votes on dragoneater.

but I'm waiting patiently for you to actually address my case on you

[Frozen Angel]

I'm actually offended if the reason Klick abandoned the game is because of what he randed. I know in a hydra one head is allowed to be dominant and the other does less work, maybe that's how they wanted the hydra to work,

but regardless of playing solo or in a hydra no one is allowed to abandon the game in its entirety for what they randed. Thats so against the spirit of the game and extremely lame

[Frozen Angel]

I'm probably not going to get a chance to read today. I've been flying all day.

I've heard Dunnstral and Feysal are town while Drixx and Frozen Angel are suspicious.

who did you hear this from and can your source elaborate all 4 reads, please?

[Frozen Angel]

klick didn't do "anything" in that game to the point that klickwork was basically alisae only.

so why would I assume something based on a game he didn't play at all?

because clearly from that i would take that as an example of klick not feeling comfortable as scum.....

Not playing a game in its entirety can just mean they were busy or something irl came up or whatever. that's how I had that flagged in my mind anyway. its not like they were playing and being uncomfortable (showing that) for me to make a link like that.

but that's good to know about klick

do you think scum!klick is capable of making a 180 on reads to associate with a wagon in general os is more conservative and careful in nature?

Did you not follow our scum discord chat at all? Like it's not like I made zero contributions, I was really clear in that chat that in the later stages of the game I wasn't posting because I was afraid of screwing everything up and dislike being scum.

I was reading yes. I remember Alisae asking you every night to join, but days were ending so fast that you didn't have time to drop any comments in the game. and then on later nights contributing with setup spec a bit to scum discussions. and that at that point you were hesitant to post at all cause you were not in the game at all till that point.

please don't tell me you consider that, playing the game.

So in my head, it was like you were distant from the game in day phases cause of some issues or whatever and not necessarily cause you were the nervous cause of scum, but you were following and sharing some insights about claims in scum chat and even talked about playing on last day that it didn't happen.

Honestly though, and I'll be blunt that I think you asking this like you were also expecting me to town read you here cause you abandoned my game when you were scum is an insult by yourself to your own gameplay regardless of your alignment here. and if my impression is wrong nad you were not expecting that, then whatever.

pedit yeah vla, days ending fast and discussing setup and nothing else in scum chat. so I said you abandened the game. Its fine cause it was a hydra slot. But I wont meta that cause I respect people and I never assume people do that for alignments. Which I think was the case with you as well.

[Frozen Angel]

Wow I haven't been here for a while. Sorryyyyy. Honestly I think my mind is melting due to IRL reasons and it makes me feel intimidated from playing this game which is all about brainpower. But I'll do my best to be more active here now.
Catching up now.

My team is scumreading Drixx and FA so I am gonna look at those two.

First question:

I pulled out the specific posts from DE which showed an inorganic progression of "reads" and strong opportunism, and I'm not sure if you caught/reacted to that?

Which posts are those?

"Your team" is scumreading me now huh? not you yourself specifically

who in your team is scumreading me?

and why didn't you still read/respond to my case on you?

[Frozen Angel]

You dropped a scumread on me (sheeping the person who dropped a completely random TR on you = klick with their meta read) before you vanished from game since then I had posted a case scumreading you, and then pinkball did.

but now someone else is scumreading me apparently in your team?

I find it really hard to believe.

can you explain what was klicks meta read on me in your own words?

[Frozen Angel]

FA tries to talk to you in post 1510
I tried to talk to you in 1561

Here is what I have to say about your posts:

Seeing PB do that kind of effort makes me think DragonEater70 may need to be info flipped.

Note haven't read details.

I disagree. That effort can come from scum, especially scum backed into a corner

And I think Dragon's responses to it have been townie so far

I don't think Dragon has responded to any of the points that I find compelling from PB, instead choosing to respond to some more technical details like that PB was faking a read. So I disagree here, I don't like the way they are responding right now.

And I still feel this way. I feel honed in on the confident thing and some other miscellaneous stuff but didn't really address what I felt was the main argument.

How many times people should bring up the cases and questions for you to notice/respond to them?

[Frozen Angel]

so my case sucks huh? and you have nothing to say about it?

nothing about how I found you too self aware yet not solving? that I think you don't develop reads but rather sheep them and go on flows?

So I am actually going to say Klick is a townlean of mine (and I was also convinced by their case that FA is scummy here).

Why was klick scum leaning me? explain their "case" in your own words please

I think I have but in case I haven't:
Klick was saying they saw a certain attitude from scum!you in a completed game, and linked a post. In the post they linked, you were sort of mega-analyzing and simultaneously attacking/countering somebody else's take (or their assumption, to be precise). Or "hijacking" it, as Klick called it.
Then Klick quoted one of your posts this game (336), in which you do almost exactly the same thing. And it definitely smells like something AI.

That wasn't his meta read though. Like it was sbut you're mixing things. He mentioned 2 different things

The meta read was that he thinks I was "showing a lot of critical/logiacl thought" on very little details in an attempt to discredit than solve and he thinks I did it as scum to them before in a multiball game as well. that post 336 was an example of him mentioning that

his second part (about hijacking) that you quoted without properly explaining, is not about me sheeping others reads. its about how he thinks scum me would be rather reflective of the flow and opportunistic in nature to use that flow for steering the game/blending in.

Klick never responded how that second "meta" is applicable to my play in this game. but apparently you agreed with his meta read and scumread me for it? so explain what did you see in this game that was me sheeping others reads/jumping on their conclusions for my benefit or "hijacking" it as you call it?

Also regarding your team mates scum reading me. I want you to tell me what "each of them" find scummy. Like I want you talk to me as you're 3 different players here with their own scumreads if you're telling the truth and didn't just make that up randomly which I bet you did cause it could not scream more that it's fake

[Frozen Angel]

BTW, since you asked nicely,
VOTE: Frozen Angel

Couldn't be more honored to be voted by obvscum.

[Frozen Angel]

You faked agreeing with klick on that meta read

as you faked your read evolution on dun/fb

as you faked evaluating my read/case on you and having absolutely nothing to say about it when "self-aware" you that was everywhere in the early game if was with a town mindset would not let go of those points

as you faked your "team" scumreading me suddenly as a back track from your own read

as you faked "having a scum read on me now" to drop that vote without 0 evaluation on my slot/motivations/posts and just because I'm hard pushing you and for you to appear consistent

This is just an extremely nervous scum caught.

case closed

[Frozen Angel]

How did you word your question? I see something in the game rules for cryptography between games but there is also something in site rules:

I wrote three messages in total, explaining what I intended to do, in fact quoting the very rule you did. I got the okay, I just needed to do it in public where everyone would get to see it.

10. Do not use cryptography, invisible text, or otherwise take any action that attempts to create an in-game private communication channel in plain sight using out-of-game information or agreements to communicate with some but not all players in a mafia game. You are allowed to provide "breadcrumbs" or crumb, as long as anyone could reasonably understand and interpret the meaning.

You are allowed to create in-game communications if you are using information or agreements produced within the same game - for example, if you agree on a code in a game-related PT.

Using references to information or agreements produced outside of the game that you know only specific people will be able to understand is not allowed.

I specifically asked about the bolded part. This is exactly what I'm doing here.

That part says for example a scum with night chat only can decide with each other when one of them says butterfly the other uses day vig in game.

its not for encrypted messaging through the day. if you have a private chat you can talk with other person. If you don't you cant. cant just let two people make their own code/private chat in mafia games regardless of setup with encrypted messaging.

[Frozen Angel]

the funniest thing with dragon eater vote here is there never was a klick case on me - just an observation that they themself pointed on some ups and downs of it they could see. and then dragoneater comes, without linking the full picture of the meta read, agreeing with it and dropping fos on me, without even trying to see if meta applies in this game.

and then they repeat the case "in their own word", taking klick words from here and there glueing it together, using a klick post example wrong with the part of meta that is not even a proper example of

and then they drop a vote on me like they just solved my slot with that when in reality they did absolutely nothing to evaluate my slot

[Frozen Angel]

Because people like you aren't going to like it!

why do you think I disliked it? I just noted its existence. it doesn't give me any kind of info either way. that's why asked about what was behind the post in his thought process

I actually have more read on your tr on it than I have on the original read itself. (leaning toward the dislike category)

pedit: his going after blue for the titus thingy was what I called try harding on page 2 IMO I don't care about his rp

How is this post hijacking a read or an example of what you just described dragoneater?

[Frozen Angel]

nothing about how I found you too self aware yet not solving? that I think you don't develop reads but rather sheep them and go on flows?

What exactly do you want me to say? "Well actually you wrong I am not in fact self aware"?
I'd much rather do something productive with my time.
And you know what, yes I can see how me agreeing with other people's scumcases can be seen as sheepy, but it's a total misrep to say I don't have reads of my own. I've stated quite a few reads this game, the vast majority of which were my own.

In regards to not solving, I am trying my best but honestly I've been away for several days and I have no idea what is going on so it's a bit hard to completely follow the logic of all the accusations and reads. But if you want to know, here's a readlist I threw together earlier today while discussing in my team chat:

Shea - top townread
GiF, FB, Dunn, Kuribo - moderate to high townread.
PB - unsure, probably scummy.
Titus - null scum
FA - scummy
Rest of players - I need to read more to see where I'm at.

So your last post before vanishing was you saying you agree with feysel case that FB is scummy after having FB towny,

now you don't have any read on feysel and you have FB back as high tr without reading more of game as you were away?

[Frozen Angel]

You faked agreeing with klick on that meta read

as you faked your read evolution on dun/fb

as you faked evaluating my read/case on you and having absolutely nothing to say about it when "self-aware" you that was everywhere in the early game if was with a town mindset would not let go of those points

as you faked your "team" scumreading me suddenly as a back track from your own read

as you faked "having a scum read on me now" to drop that vote without 0 evaluation on my slot/motivations/posts and just because I'm hard pushing you and for you to appear consistent

This is just an extremely nervous scum caught.

case closed

And that's why I am not bothering replying to your case on me. What can I say except "I didn't fake it?"
Is there even a way to prove that I genuinely agreed with Klick's metaread?
I never faked evaluating your read on me, because I never cared about your read on me. It's based on BS assumptions.
I never faked having a SR on you, I voted because I dislike your push and it's irritating, maddening even, and you are taunting me to vote you basically. Maybe you don't see it, but it feels that way.

no cause with explaining it half way the way you did and using wrong example for wrong part of his meta read, you proved you didn't agree with the meta read, you just saw someone posting something shiny in game and went like oh me likely let me jump on it without evaluating what it was or what it applies on or if its even valid.

case in point, you didn't even mention half of the meta read/ and the more important half of it.

klick never posted a sample of a read I did "hijack" in this game, they even said when they was explaining the rest of meta read that my latest posts at the time were counter to that meta so they are not sure what to think about it so why did you go with that part of the meta read with an example of the other part of meta read and why didn't you - back at time care enough to search for actual examples that it would apply on before dropping the scum read on me at the time, or now that I'm insisting you to elaborate the read even with you vanishing for days and me no longer being a concern of any other slot in game but you.

[Frozen Angel]

I don't have a read on Feysal because I don't remember anything they did at all. Sure I guess it was them who proposed that FB was scummy but it didn't strike me as something to remember about them.

I changed my read on FB due to discussion in my team chat, pointing out that it's actually typical of FB to behave the way they do this game as town. I'd also earlier said I think FB and Dunn could be TvT.
Also, this might sound as a very weird reason to TR FB, but I generally don't like to keep early scumreads in Large Theme games. Experience has taught me that the players I scumread very early are basically always town (100% of players I scumread in first few pages of both of my completed large games were town, IIRC). So I accounted for that and raised his position on the readlist.

You were not in game but you had a full on discussion about FB and other slots (me drixx etc) with your team mates?

"Experience has taught me that the players I scumread very early are basically always town (100% of players I scumread in first few pages of both of my completed large games were town, IIRC). So I accounted for that and raised his position on the readlist."

I'm always wrong with my initial scumreads so I'll townread whoever I scumread first - what?!!!

also FB wasn't your scumread. the mindset you were portraying was painting him as town originally, you just dropped a read that you agree with feysel that FB is scummy out of nowhere so how is that even applyable here?

[Frozen Angel]

So I will assume that everyone at least claimed targets or will do that, and I will claim that I targeted no one last night.

so I don't have much time for the game, right now, I have some notes written considering the dragon flip that I will post tomorrow hopefully if I manage to sit behind the game for like 2 hours to sort everything up.

I think there are a lot of clues regarding how the dragon eater wagon was handled yesterday, and about who might have been informed about it, so it's a good idea to dig that grave a little to see what we get.

This is the only post you gonna get out of me today cause I already am late for doing something else and I'll be so exhausted in an hour and half from now when I'm done with that.

so see you all tomorrow

[Frozen Angel]

What I'm worried about a complete mass claim is chances of scum powers that can counter some aspects/skills even not knowing who will has them.

we don't know what scum utility exists in a game like this and (those skills should exist to balance the movements of roles and how pr cant be removed from game.

So I prefer just claiming targets personally until later days and why I suggested this yesterday and tried explaining it.

But if you all insist on a full mass claim I'm fine with that too and will do so if everyone else is doing it.

[Frozen Angel]

for what it's worth I think titus "being confused about setup" and going back on her day 1 "propositions" about no-claims seems genuine on first look.

[Frozen Angel]

also wtf is with this game and the cryptomessaging and asking for looking up "words" or "characters" in role pms to confirm roles

did you guys forget how all these stuff are the most awful things that can be suggested in a mafia game and so against the spirit of game itself?

like just focus on the game. discussing mech doesn't mean you need to literally break the game by asking for quotes. let people paraphrase claims and play game as it should be

[Frozen Angel]

that last rant is as a regular game designer and a passionate mod and not really related to game/my reads itself.

anyways will try to read day 2 more thoroughly tomorrow and will post my notes about day 1

nini

[Frozen Angel]

I changed FA to vanilla. If that is not their role they can say so.

What does Visionary do?

wait did everyone else you wrote as vanilla explicitly claim vanilla?

[Frozen Angel]

If so there is one person who is lieing

[Frozen Angel]

I was vanilla yesterday but these claims make no sense

I was under assumption there are exactly 15 roles and they switching hands right? then why no one claimed the role I got today?

[Frozen Angel]

oh the dead also had roles. Ignore me, please. I need my caffeine and I'm multi-tasking while trying to skim the game as well

pedit: let me not talk about till tomorrow.

[Frozen Angel]

GIF why do you scum read me?

[Frozen Angel]

oh it was pink balls readlist not yours

I blame my super dehydration right now

@pink ball

why you have those scum pool? is that PoE or is it based on something else? why the categories are separated like that?

[Frozen Angel]

Oh and there's also the chance that Black and PB are scum together. Assuming they are scum and they can get town roped today and get a kill through tonight, then Black can claim to have passed it along to someone who claims something else already and that gets a "mislim" tomorrow as well, and then another night kill ... I believe that would be LYLO, assuming 4 scum.

I'm pretty busy at work today ... would appreciate responses.

For what it's worth ... what Black and PB just did is the kind of play that appeals to me as scum. Make the town think I'm conftown (or very nearly so) and run the table.

Occam’s razor etc

Did you really just try to say "Occam's Razor" in response to me pointing out that it could be a (very good, if so) scum gambit? If we consider them conftown and then do what people naturally do and follow their lead, they literally get a free pass to LYLO from this claim.

Yes I said occam’s razor
Is it possible that it’s a scum gambit? Yes.
Is it likely that it’s a scum gambit? Hell no

this is actually a logical fallacy. You cant decide its likelihood from your perspective.

Think vice versa, if they/one of them are scum then its 100% a scum gambit of a sort
if they are town then they are telling the truth.

so without knowing their alignment you cant decide which is more likelier cause this is a conditional likelihood. you cant just assume people are telling the truth before applying occam's razor. that doesn't work like that.

[Frozen Angel]

occams razor applies when two different scenarios without conditions exist that one is likelier than the other. Then you should accept the most likely scenario as the case (this is also with considerations like how town number is more than scum number so all likelihoods are skewed toward town tells). But you can't assume people are town before applying occam razor

[Frozen Angel]

Fa where's your head at

I wanna reread GIF, klick, black and PB. I'm super uncomfortable with how pb and black are acting like each other are conftown and I think GIF is not really showing a hunting spirit.

+ I have some notes about day 1 but I need to actually spend time to sort my thoughts.

so give me 24 hours more

[Frozen Angel]

Klick why were you townreading dragon eater again in day 1? Like you explicitly dropped a town read on the slot repeatedly. can you elaborate how your read on him developed through the day?

[Frozen Angel]

idk what you’re talking about assuming alignment before application.

They’re either telling the truth or not telling the truth.

If they are not telling the truth, then they are either faking the existence of the role or they’re buddies with the real role that they are pretending that it worked.

Faking the existence of the role is very unlikely when they both know that they can’t blame things on rng forever. Visionary is there to fuck with that too and Jingle would’ve caught onto that before scum PB-Black pulls stuff like this.

Given that they both showed lack of coordination on that crumb thingy earlier, both pretending that the role is working as scum is also unlikely. Plus Black asked Titus on same thing before asking PB about the same thing.

So both possible reasons for them lying is unlikely. Then what is likely? Them telling the truth.

we know scum also get the roles they just don't get powers. so how can we be sure one of them isn't scum? or both arent scum and the role is entirely not fake? both are possible scenarios

you cant say its unlikely for them to be scum cause they claimed same role.

but I do agree that they don't seem coordinated so its either both town or one scum IMO too. That still wont make your occams razor not a logical fallacy. they can be town or scum and neither case is more likelier.

[Frozen Angel]

and its fine klick. I wont be here much more tonight. I'm not really energetic and need rest.

[Frozen Angel]

There's no way you read over me/PB and came to the conclusion that we're acting like each other are conftown. Read it again

let me type it more accurately, from my skim it was seen like this

well pb was calling you town for it and then saying it doesn't mean he himself is conftown
and you were saying you don't think he is conftown but you don't want him in this day at least
and there were other people who were saying it means you guys are town but neither complaint about it and naturally disengaged from each other

just felt like at least one of you might have an extra motivation for that disengaging/humble act and not directly saying that these claims mean absolutely nothing logically about either of your alignments at least at this point in game so I need to review both. the interaction didn't felt natural on its conclusion part on my skim and unlike gif who thinks this clears both of you I actually feel a bit alerted for how you guys got to the conclusions you did and how other slots reacted to it so I need to read this and rest of stuff more tomorrow

[Frozen Angel]

Chance of 1 scum 1 town means something like 1/15 chance because it means the role happened to rand onto right person at the right time (or wrong person at the wrong time?)

chance of someone being scum is naturally 4/15 or 3/15 in this setup and this claim doesn't reduce it mechanically for either of them as scum had 4/15 or 3/15 chance to obtain the role like everyone else and could claim having it/targetting others with it.

since neither scenario is more likely (considering the natural town/scum distribution ratio) occam razor doesn't apply here

[Frozen Angel]

I see 3 possible scenarios beside them both being town

either both are scum and that whole claim was theatre. they made a scenario where people would think a scum!pb is conftowning a poe suspect black who is also scum. town would say pb had no motivation for this and clear both as town

or black is scum here, had the role as the roles scum get so acted the way she did to get someone conftown them cause they knew someone else had the role too

or pb is scum here, had the role in roles scum get and to attach himself to another town, "conftowned" the other player who had the role in their own words, so people would read them as town too

please tell me mechanically how any of the above are unlikely if you wanna say mech dictates both are town.

[Frozen Angel]

Drixx, if I am incorrect, please feel free to correct me. I am going to be ill for quite awhile so your BoP is unfair. However, we shouldn't go into moon logic.

I'm locktowning Black if PB town. Is that conftown? No as Black said. There's a one in 15ish chance. I'm ok with that if I lose to that. I'd obviously check in elo.

If Black is town and PB scum, then PB must pick up Black's crumbs and commit to that action. This forecloses any realistic argument Black is scum. That's not consistent with PB's play. PB has been townreading me and I raised Black suspicion. Confirming Black as likely town effectively undoes the benefit of that pocket.

The most likely scenario is Black and PB are aligned.

I don't get the 1 in 15 chance and where it comes from.

why would you assume scum wouldnt have all the roles they getting shared with each other. scum having the role has 4/15 or something chance - not 1/15 and that's just the natural bias of town having more player than scum.

that doesn't mean someone is more likely town than scum more than what we know naturally about all slots having more chance of being town than scum

[Frozen Angel]

I see 3 possible scenarios beside them both being town

either both are scum and that whole claim was theatre. they made a scenario where people would think a scum!pb is conftowning a poe suspect black who is also scum. town would say pb had no motivation for this and clear both as town

or black is scum here, had the role as the roles scum get so acted the way she did to get someone conftown them cause they knew someone else had the role too

or pb is scum here, had the role in roles scum get and to attach himself to another town, "conftowned" the other player who had the role in their own words, so people would read them as town too

please tell me mechanically how any of the above are unlikely if you wanna say mech dictates both are town.

either I'm so stupid or this argument is so stupid.

[Frozen Angel]

but good night. I'll do my thing tomorrow. promise

[Frozen Angel]

Logically, I expect Black to die here to limit the opportunity to confirm or deny any more people. The scum could, if Black is town, shoot in her PoE. That benefits us. If the role scrambles to a living player, we get a guilty, so that's unlikely to happen.

They could take a gamble that Black targets them and shoot Black. In this case, we'd get scum in Black's PoE but possibly lose the caterer role. If scum shoot Black and Black targets town, we are in the same situation as today but scum are forced to shoot scummy people until the PoE dies.

@FA, Yes, PB could claim on another scum but that's getting into moon logic terrority as it needs scum to notice crumbs, discuss who should claim it, and then have intense theater. PB was largely townread prior to the claim. If they'd go there, they'd go Klick or Dunn and sooner in the day.

I don't think not clearing someone for wrong/not fool proof reasons enters moon logic territory. clearing people is extremely sensitive thing to do. You can claim you town read interaction and stuff but the moment you say you think it lock town/conf town them you're removing them from scum hunting pool and its dangerous if its not done with a fool proof reason.

in this case, I see many ways for either to be scum individually or together that even if it doesn't sound likely based on how they did the claim, its enough to say the claims themselves are not clearing anyone.

You cant have people cleared for wrong reasons going to late days. If I learned one thing modding my games is, the town has a huge tendency to forget and never analyze back stuff they moved on from.

[Frozen Angel]

Wait if we die with the roles, they stay in the rotation?

So even after I'm dead someone can get stuck having to read that lover PT?

This game just got way more fun, bbl I got a PT to fill with fanfic

yeah according to mod and based on questions I asked, the dead players will be part of rotation too. some roles will be inactive on later phases based on how rotation is and what roles randomize to be with dead players.

[Frozen Angel]

Logically, I expect Black to die here to limit the opportunity to confirm or deny any more people. The scum could, if Black is town, shoot in her PoE. That benefits us. If the role scrambles to a living player, we get a guilty, so that's unlikely to happen.

They could take a gamble that Black targets them and shoot Black. In this case, we'd get scum in Black's PoE but possibly lose the caterer role. If scum shoot Black and Black targets town, we are in the same situation as today but scum are forced to shoot scummy people until the PoE dies.

@FA, Yes, PB could claim on another scum but that's getting into moon logic terrority as it needs scum to notice crumbs, discuss who should claim it, and then have intense theater. PB was largely townread prior to the claim. If they'd go there, they'd go Klick or Dunn and sooner in the day.

I don't think not clearing someone for wrong/not fool proof reasons enters moon logic territory. clearing people is extremely sensitive thing to do. You can claim you town read interaction and stuff but the moment you say you think it lock town/conf town them you're removing them from scum hunting pool and its dangerous if its not done with a fool proof reason.

in this case, I see many ways for either to be scum individually or together that even if it doesn't sound likely based on how they did the claim, its enough to say the claims themselves are not clearing anyone.

You cant have people cleared for wrong reasons going to late days. If I learned one thing modding my games is, the town has a huge tendency to forget and never analyze back stuff they moved on from.

That's straight up not me. You know this.

You still can't use the world cleared. what if you're dead before late phases come and town does their random thing and skip anlyizing back

[Frozen Angel]

Logically, I expect Black to die here to limit the opportunity to confirm or deny any more people. The scum could, if Black is town, shoot in her PoE. That benefits us. If the role scrambles to a living player, we get a guilty, so that's unlikely to happen.

They could take a gamble that Black targets them and shoot Black. In this case, we'd get scum in Black's PoE but possibly lose the caterer role. If scum shoot Black and Black targets town, we are in the same situation as today but scum are forced to shoot scummy people until the PoE dies.

@FA, Yes, PB could claim on another scum but that's getting into moon logic terrority as it needs scum to notice crumbs, discuss who should claim it, and then have intense theater. PB was largely townread prior to the claim. If they'd go there, they'd go Klick or Dunn and sooner in the day.

I don't think not clearing someone for wrong/not fool proof reasons enters moon logic territory. clearing people is extremely sensitive thing to do. You can claim you town read interaction and stuff but the moment you say you think it lock town/conf town them you're removing them from scum hunting pool and its dangerous if its not done with a fool proof reason.

in this case, I see many ways for either to be scum individually or together that even if it doesn't sound likely based on how they did the claim, its enough to say the claims themselves are not clearing anyone.

You cant have people cleared for wrong reasons going to late days. If I learned one thing modding my games is, the town has a huge tendency to forget and never analyze back stuff they moved on from.

That's straight up not me. You know this.

You still can't use the world cleared. what if you're dead before late phases come and town does their random thing and skip anlyizing back

3406 doesn't claim clear. Hence why I have locktown v conftown.

What's your read list?

posted earlier where I am with game

I need to reread some stuff to solidify a stance. till then good night

[Frozen Angel]

and lock town and conf town are synonymous. you probably mean strong town read vs conf town.

[Frozen Angel]

I have almost 0 time to even read this game at this time so I'm just tagging along and will lurk till I have actual time.

Its stupidly convenient how everyone's focus shift on me when I go a bit inactive cause of real life. I'm really busy cause I'm studying PHD and I work and I don't have weekends to spare. like I really shouldn't be playing and only reason I'm playing is cause its team mafia, and it makes me feel bad that I'm not putting in real effort

I'm gonna say this in case a wagon shifts on me that I think the scum were mainly the people avoiding dragon eater and not the ones pushing him cause I still think he played scummy and the way people stayed away from dragon eater. I haven't been reading the game and I'm like what 10 pages behind if not more but I'm not scum. If you wanna form a wagon on me, force each other to explain their scum read on me in detail and not just throw a random wagon so at least if I get elimed you get info out of the wagon itself.

-----------------------------------------

anyways I saw titus claim I can confirm that my role is not active and a role block has 0 effect on it.

The only reason I said I'm not vt is that no one else claimed to have my role tbh not that its anything special. I already crumbed heavy what I am and it will be irrefutable in future phases when others also have the roles anyway cause its a very rare thing that's used in this game and its obvious when you know what you're looking for.

my role means this game is almost definitely single ball btw.

[Frozen Angel]

oh and I still can be targeted I'm not claiming ascetic or some shit.

[Frozen Angel]

I just read last 2 pages and saw like 10 times me being mentioned and a team mate of mine said I'm getting scum read, so I'm just dropping a disclaimer. I don't have time to read back nor to answer if anything was dropped my way. this is all I have time to post tonight. will try to drop some time to catch up tomorrow.

[Frozen Angel]

Are your teammates following the game for you? What do they think of the gamestate? Some reads maybe?

no they actually arent following. I'll ask them for reads as I had been asking them to engage multiple times but we're a team of busy people I guess. and it seems they are specifically afraid of catching up with a large theme game that has so many pages. It was more of a random one line comment gimli dropped but I know he doesn't have time for playing mafia properly at this time either.

[Frozen Angel]

received the prod and responding. I had been out all day today and my eyes are about to bleed the way they are red rn. my next free day is probably Wednesday xd

I really wanna spend - even few minutes to sort the two wagons but I cant do it tonight either . My issue right now is, I don't necessarily like the wagon composition on titus (specially the middle votes) while I like the voters on klick wagon more but I think from my impression klick has more scum quality than titus with the way he was playing day 1. and that's why I haven't been voting so I can make up my mind on the top wagon.

[Frozen Angel]

yea

[Frozen Angel]

anyways I saw titus claim I can confirm that my role is not active and a role block has 0 effect on it.

The only reason I said I'm not vt is that no one else claimed to have my role tbh not that its anything special. I already crumbed heavy what I am and it will be irrefutable in future phases when others also have the roles anyway cause its a very rare thing that's used in this game and its obvious when you know what you're looking for.

my role means this game is almost definitely single ball btw.

oh and I still can be targeted I'm not claiming ascetic or some shit.

I am interested in this

So I will assume that everyone at least claimed targets or will do that, and I will claim that I targeted no one last night.

so I don't have much time for the game, right now, I have some notes written considering the dragon flip that I will post tomorrow hopefully if I manage to sit behind the game for like 2 hours to sort everything up.

I think there are a lot of clues regarding how the dragon eater wagon was handled yesterday, and about who might have been informed about it, so it's a good idea to dig that grave a little to see what we get.

This is the only post you gonna get out of me today cause I already am late for doing something else and I'll be so exhausted in an hour and half from now when I'm done with that.

so see you all tomorrow

I will say my claim was in this post for now, till everyone else claim their day 2. The main reason I didn't claim immediately yesterday was to not let scum "use this utility to fake claim things" as I knew it must have been came from the two dead slots in day/night 1 to me and scum should not have seen this role at least till last night phase so if someone else claims the role I claimed in this post or we get an investigation result concerning it we can confirm the result when I claim

[Frozen Angel]

My claim cant be fixed its litteraly on that post in a pretty obvious manner already so I don't think I need to rush it

[Frozen Angel]

so FB got the caterer and the original owner of role died?

My mind is not really in game like the rest of you, but why would scum kill black if they couldn't use that for a gambit/fake clearing themself attempt? Black seems like a very weird choice of kill tbh

[Frozen Angel]

instead of pretending "i didn't target anyone' is a claim of a role.
Just claim ur shit.

Ur claiming vanilla town on day 1 then?
Great, what were u yesterday.

I claimed my day 1 role in day 2. I claimed vanilla

and I already claimed my day 2 role in that specific post I quoted from day 2. and I claimed the different aspects of that role in multiple ways/posts in day 2 already so when I fully claim they will all uniquely and undeniably will come together anyway so whats the rush with that?

Since I know scum didn't have the role at least till today, I prefer others to claim first. I'll go last with full claiming for obvious reasons.

[Frozen Angel]

and just claiming targets was a better version of early massclaim for this game I still insist. when on later phases we would get to a full mass claim we would have possibly some scum trapped in claims they couldn't logically have that way without outing the actual actions we have,

Cause I can't believe scum have no utility to manipulate/stop the utilities that are switching hands this game cause that would be a broken setup.

But I said it day 1 and went with the chosen version of massclaim as if its started we gotta do it for sure.

no where I said I wont claim

[Frozen Angel]

so FB got the caterer and the original owner of role died?

My mind is not really in game like the rest of you, but why would scum kill black if they couldn't use that for a gambit/fake clearing themself attempt? Black seems like a very weird choice of kill tbh

black could confirm a slot is scum by targeting them and them not owning caterer so that explains the kill I guess specially as a panic kill if they though that is likely that he is targeting scum.

or scum had a way to use the kill to perform a gambit/fake clear themselves and they didn't want black to talk.

Its one of the two cause I'm sure black was not targeted as a "threatening town player" by day play in this player base - no offense meant black

[Frozen Angel]

So let's yeet Klick and see what happens?

Still waiting for your PoE

FB
FA

Titus

GiF
Klick

So based on that logic there is a scum between FB, GIF and Klick (well and me in the poe)

regardless of who black targeted

.

so these 4 slots including me is where we need to focus hunt today

[Frozen Angel]

Would you agree to those 4 slots including yourself claiming first then?

I'm gonna repeat it again

I already claimed the role in my day 2 posts of mine.

It's unique/undeniable and basically, the only thing that fits what I explained it would be. The role I had was USELESS and it's actually a negative utility. The only reason I didn't claim outright is that scum didn't have this role till the start of this day phase at least with absolute certainty cause of the day 1 roles claims (it came from a dead player certainly) so I don't want to give them ideas for a fake claim.

so what's the point of rushing me to actually name my claim even if I'm you're POE?

[Frozen Angel]

Let's clear up mech a little here. Let's assume Firebringer is mafia and is in possession of the Caterer. The role does

not

need to specifically, coincidentally rand onto Firebringer. Any of Firebringer's teammates could have received the Caterer role, and then Firebringer can "switch" fake claims with that mafia player as a more advantageous player inside of the PoE. This increases the odds from 1/15 to hitting Firebringer to something like 4/15 of hitting Firebringer's team.


I'm not saying that this is what happened. I think the most likely explanation is that Firebringer simply received the Caterer normally, and 4/15 is still pretty low odds.

I'm not completely familiar with the caterer role

what I understood is it cant target a scum - if it does it goes randomly to someone else - but can it randomly go to scum?

[Frozen Angel]

FA you say we should be focusing in a pool including you but you want to claim last for some reason. And I don't understand why you need to claim last if your role does not have an active targeting part.

I'm not seeing your claim in that post.

you know what, whatever, cause this cant affect their today's claims anymore anyway and it doesn't matter that much.

I was a "gravedigger" its a rare negative utility that means the holder will be seen targeting the scum kill to tracker/watcher. In this specific setup that roles swap in, it can be used for scum to get out of a guilty if they know it exists which is why I decided to not outright claim it (it also won't mess with tracker/guity just will give them an extra result which I could explain with how I softed/well arguably I had claimed it cause I used the literal words). The way no one claimed it as their d1 role means the dead town members had it and scum didn't know it exists till the start of this day phase or till now.

[Frozen Angel]

I thought you said FA was in your blind spot so that is a really interesting and honestly out of character reaction from you TSQ

I like the reaction tbh.

[Frozen Angel]

Nobody has claimed a tracker or watcher or any other role that sees visits except for the visionary; and that wouldn't work with your claimed role because they'd be watching themselves die twice, basically.

I don't think the claim makes sense

But it was my day 2 role and I explained different aspects of it during day 2 and someone else must have had it at this point to confirm it exists in this setup.

Now you get why I was shocked with the mass claim result of day 1 roles.

[Frozen Angel]

Why did you not claim this role when you got it? So that you don't get fake guiltied and have to try to explain after.

it can be used for scum to get out of a guilty if they know it exists which is why I decided to not outright claim it

But you are the one who had the role yesterday, so this explanation doesn't make sense to me; they would be ccing you

No one claimed for having it in day 1 is why I hold it - without actually holding it.

There was no point

for an early claim as it doesn't mess with watcher/tracker its just an extra explainable result anyway if those role even exists.

and I was thinking where this role is coming from and why no one claimed it for day 1? Its only explanation is it came from the two dead players or that scum were having the role and waiting for perfect moment to claim it for getting away with kills?

so i just withhold direct claiming it till this day phase, where hopefully someone else can claim it exists too

[Frozen Angel]

Let's assume 4 mafia, 4 dead players, and FA getting the role again. FA is town in this scenario.

9/15. That's a 60% chance that a townie does

not

get the role to back FA's claim up. Your "good chance" is less than half and I'm still not seeing the benefits to not claiming in the first place.

But I did claim it in first post in day 2. I just didn't tell you I claimed it or where in the post I did it.

so I claimed the role without screaming loud about it cause there was no point in doing so. what was the benefit of claiming it?

The benefits of not claiming it loud outweighs the benefits of loudly claiming it during day 2 in this game state/scenario and there was no benefit in either scenario so I just decided to go in this direction.

[Frozen Angel]

Popcorn Frozen Angel (hi!)

hi!

I claimed few posts above. I doubt you would miss that so this is wierd

[Frozen Angel]

popcorn GIF though

[Frozen Angel]

Let's assume 4 mafia, 4 dead players, and FA getting the role again. FA is town in this scenario.

9/15. That's a 60% chance that a townie does

not

get the role to back FA's claim up. Your "good chance" is less than half and I'm still not seeing the benefits to not claiming in the first place.

but yeah its a 40% chance that someone else gets it, and there were no benefits for it being claimed either. so its 40% more toward a benefit

and as scum didn't know this exists at least till day phase, they couldn't plan a fake claim in case of a guilty exists considering that role exists in this setup in this day phase cause I didn't claim

I don't know why its complicated

[Frozen Angel]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Gravedigger

Never heard of this role before but it's on the wiki. Was going to give a negative reply to 4841 otherwise.

OK I see you said "dig that grave" which is a crumb. So I now believe you could have explained a false guilty without disaster. But I still don't understand how this benefits the town rather than being neutral to keep quiet about the role on day 2. What would mafia do knowing your role existed on day 2?

It was almost natural on both scenarios. on scale of 0 being really bad to 10 being really good. claiming it outright was 5, and not claiming it outright was 6 cause there was a chance it would get confirmed today by someone else and that scum couldn't plan knowing such negative utility exists in setup (cause role likely came from a dead player in day 1)

so i went with 6 over 5 its just as simple as that