TM 2023 | Super Mario Bros Mafia | Game Over!
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
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My strategy here is the same as with all Mario games. Find yoshi. Drop yoshi in pit of lava. Win Game.
VOTE: petaThis is a Parachute.-
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It's safe to say I will be straight up ignoring the fire flower, since the only actual use of a doublevoter is balance considerations if scum has access to a doublevote and therefore it's garbage.This is a Parachute.-
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Oh, hm. I hadn't considered it could be the type of doublevoter that would allow for two elims on D1.In post 17, Radical Rat wrote: This is probably correct regardless, but I think a double hammer would be really funny
To skip the beating around the bush:
@SIRCAKEZ, LORD OF TRASH:Would the fire flower potentially be able to cause two eliminations on D1 by voting for two separate people?
If that is the case it might be the way the setup gets off of evens, and thus actually useful. Good catch.This is a Parachute.-
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Weird flex given afaik you've both been retired for at least as long as I have.In post 22, wgeurts wrote: I probably know your play the best in this gameThis is a Parachute.-
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I think Fate's been retired since before I joined the site, wogurts (pronounced like Gogurt, fite me) used to be big in site admin stuff but is mostly lurker-y and I just finished my first game in two years. Even before that, Cerb basically only hydra'd with another player on his team. I think everyone else is reasonably active? Maybe?This is a Parachute.-
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You're adorable.
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Do you think Cerbs would specifically try to pocket a rusty player, though?In post 25, wgeurts wrote: Considering that means few have had the chance to play with them it still standsThis is a Parachute.-
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Stop sheeping LLD, peta. She can't read me.This is a Parachute.-
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Apparently my vote is now serious.This is a Parachute.-
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LLD has never not scumread me and also we literally just swept a town together, it's not very impressive.
Koba wants to know what Dunn thinks.This is a Parachute.-
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Except that your question doesn't clarify whether a split vote double voter would cause a single hammer or a double hammer and would thus require a follow up question.In post 54, Radical Rat wrote: Kinda weird that you just rephrase my already asked questions and call it skipping beating around the bush.This is a Parachute.-
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I DID assume it was a traditional doublevote (Like it apparently is), but when you pointed out that it might actually serve a purpose, I felt getting the mech speak completely out of the way as quickly as possible was the right thing to do. What do you think about wgeurts?This is a Parachute.-
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Why?In post 60, HighPrincessErinys wrote: We should still probably give it to someone, right?
It doesn't do anything and just bloats the thread to do so.This is a Parachute.-
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I specifically want no one to have it.This is a Parachute.-
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
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It explicitly doesn't have any use for town and any discussion about who we should give it to is a waste of time. In a different game, the best use of a doublevoter is to use it once to confirm it exists and then never use it again because it taints VCA. We've already confirmed it exists, so we can safely just... not give a shit about the role and instead do actual AI indicative things instead of having a big mechanical red herring for scum to hide behind.In post 71, Adorable wrote: What does that mean by bloats the thread?This is a Parachute.-
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You're the not ETL pig person, right?This is a Parachute.-
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I answered my own question by looking at your join date. Don't worry about it Porkens.This is a Parachute.-
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Adorable (Average ™ Enjoyers)
Radical Rat (Klickin’ Chickens)
HighPrincessErinys Whimsical Activities)
Cerberus v666 (We Don’t Mafia)
Cat Scratch Fever (Good in Plaid)
Wgeurts (Crispy Cream Puffs)
Petapan (Polymewl)
not spoken:
Fate (Ancient Guard)
Porkens (Pork Eaters)
A few pages old, but this is our working list.This is a Parachute.-
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
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Because we think wogurts has a strong potential to be scum aorn. Ask a silly question...In post 84, Cat Scratch Fever wrote: Why is wgeurts lower than Cerb?
And yeah, the readslist was from a little before porkens came into the thread, but there's not much from the slot anyway.This is a Parachute.-
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I think if you look at it wogurts actually looks far worse in those interactions. 22 kind of implies wgeurts has the impression of being buddied, but there's no real follow up. It's very much a "look, I'm paranoid of you!" post, but I don't actually see any real paranoia. cerb otoh looks like someone who is reaching out for engagement.In post 88, Cat Scratch Fever wrote: I think Cerb's posts have been lengthy and wordy but don't have much meat to them & feel vaguely pocket-y of wgeurts
As far as other posts by wgeurtz I disliked, the pressing of Adorable this early is NAGL and the defence of me/undermining peta's push raised my brows.This is a Parachute.-
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Mostly a sign that I'm bored with the pace of the game. I can't say I've played enough mafia since coming out of retirement to say I often do anything, and preretirement pinning down my meta based on specific actions was an exercise in futility.In post 90, petapan wrote: jingle do you often make reads lists on page 4 of gamesThis is a Parachute.-
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
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For ease of meta, my mafia playing for the last 5? years has all been on the account Bingle, and the only completed game since sometime in 2021 when I burned out hard is this one: viewtopic.php?t=90476This is a Parachute.-
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
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yeah, some years ago FakeGod convinced me to make an alt to keep my modding and gameplay separate. I only play events like TM on my main nowadays.This is a Parachute.-
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Oh, no, in this particular instance it was because I was talking through reads with Koba. We've probably talked more about this game today than there is actual content in this game. The curse of having free time and a teammate like Koba.This is a Parachute.-
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The read is primarily koba's (and has been) but I'm not expected to force it through atm. I think you are scum independent of that, however.This is a Parachute.-
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I generally don’t think I have reliable reads on page 100. Reads are not the forte of my towngame, barring some specific players. I’m way better at managing the gamestate to make winning possible than actually having the right reads.In post 103, Porkens wrote: Do you seriously think you have reliable reads at this point?
Doesn’t stop me litigating the reads I have though, because even if they’re wrong they generate reads for other people.This is a Parachute.-
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I’m not sure how it could be when it’s a generic philosophical response about my overall approach to the game. Do you think I’d lie when there’s an audience of like 70 people, and probably at least a third of them can confirm that is actually my thoughts about the game?In post 111, Porkens wrote: That’s so insanely scummyThis is a Parachute.-
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Noted but also ew.In post 112, petapan wrote:
this is especially true in team mafia because having 3 other people shouting in your ear very often creates an echo chamber effect that can lead you to confirmation bias your reads, and that can lead to people mutually tunneling each other and consuming the thread in a destructive fashion. i am trying to avoid thisThis is a Parachute.-
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This isn’t really an explanation of why what you did but an admission that it is what I was seeing. It also doesn’t really shake the feeling I got that your response was intended to make cerbs look worse.In post 144, wgeurts wrote:
I don't genuinely think Cerb was scum-buddying with me, prior to the game starting we were already excited to have the opportunity to play again and have some mafia history together. His post largely read as jest, and I responded with some pomp in turn. By itself, that post is entirely NAI. I am not paranoid of Cerb to put it simply, I'm playing along with them. ^^
I guess the question remains: what do you intend to do now to response to the reach out/establish a better groundwork to work with cerbs, and why haven’t you been doing it til now.This is a Parachute.-
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Not really a huge deal, but as a point of clarification this isn’t actually what I meant.In post 157, HighPrincessErinys wrote: Because there is very much a difference in Jingle expressly saying they don't think they EVER have reliable reads,
There are games when I’m confident on my reads. There are games when I’m confident on my reads from the early game. As a whole, I don’t think I am impressive in either my scumhunting or town hunting, although there are people who disagree. Even when I’m not confident on my reads, I’m going to be arguing them.
The ways in which I benefit the town, instead, are much more aligned with other aspects of the game. I’m great at recognizing and derailing shittunnels from other people. I’m good at dragging activity out of chronic lurkers. I’m one of the best, if not the actual best, at working with mechanics to make the game unwinnable for scum. I’m pretty good at gamestate analysis.
Not admitting the shortcomings I know I have doesn’t do me any good, and in fact hurts our chances.
Hope that explains things a bit better, although if it doesn’t I’ll ask you the same question I asked peta: “What could I possibly have to gain by lying publicly about my experience in front of a bunch of people who have seen me play?”This is a Parachute.-
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Did they scumslip?In post 171, wgeurts wrote: Also got some commentary on Jingle from Xof.This is a Parachute.-
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
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I’m sodeeyeing porkers a bit for roughly the reasons you seem to be on our princess friend. There’s a lot of prima facie doing but not a lot that seems likely to lead anywhere. I’m not particularly interested in poking them atm though, because there IS the doing side of things and the going somewhere might be impending. I feel like it’ll be a better situation to read porkens if I just let them do their own thing for now.This is a Parachute.-
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Sorry, porkens, for the porkers bits. My phone keeps trying to autocorrect your name and I keep not catching it.
While I do intentionally butcher usernames like wogurtses, I don’t do so with anything I think is potentially offensive on purpose and will definitely stop if asked.This is a Parachute.-
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I don’t believe in fate. Like Santa or the irs you’re just one of those things we tell children to scare them into behaving.In post 182, Fate wrote: JINGLE DONT THREATEN YOUR TOWNREAD BY IGNORING METhis is a Parachute.-
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I didn't mean to imply you wouldn't be active. In fact, I would go so far to say that Team Mafia you will be almost identical to RR you as far as thread presence goes because you have Drixx whispering sweet nothings in your ear and that's how you always play from my reference point.In post 193, Cerberus v666 wrote: inaccurate one.This is a Parachute.-
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Good thing RL kept me away from thread long enough to miss out on being blanket handwaived then!In post 192, Fate wrote: For those questioning me, shhhhh, all in due time
Can you expand on where you've seen my name come up? I've definitely heard a lot of Fate stories (I believe you may be the founder of the Screaming Death Clan?) but it's interesting to me that you seem at least slightly familiar with me coming into this game where as far as I know you, uh, shouldn't be.This is a Parachute.-
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I'm not sure if you're talking to wgeurtz or me here, but FWIW I could definitely see a theoretical town cerb trying to pocket wgeurtz as a place to use for a start in putting the thread together. Pocketing isn't an exclusively scum activity, even if it is far less dangerous for scum because they don't have to worry about pocketing a scum player and just ending up a worthless pile of town crap.In post 193, Cerberus v666 wrote: Still feels insulting. Since you're talking about me, reaching out towards the person I know best in the game(especially one who I know is capable of putting together reads with actual reasoning behind them in the early game, which basically everybody fucking sucks at) is essential NAI. Town!Me does it because if I assume I have the best chance of catching them if scum, and if town I know we can work well together. Scum!Me does it because town!me would do it.
When you get a chance could you give your thoughts on the wgeurtz scumlean I explained? I think you specifically are well placed to give insight.This is a Parachute.-
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Not cerb, but yeah. When wgeurtz and I joined it was pretty par for the course for analytical players to have notes on everyone as town, regardless of the level of content. That particular bit is NAI. You should focus more on content and whether you think the content is real or if it fits an agenda.In post 200, wgeurts wrote: You evidently never had the pleasure of playing with me when I was active. That's how I play the game, I've got a spreadsheet I note people's thought progressions, votes, and go back to once people start flipping so I can find associative-tells and patterns. Cerb at minimum can vouch, that's just how I roll.This is a Parachute.-
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wogurtz, DK want's to hear more about your peta read, if you can.In post 206, wgeurts wrote: As a sidenote, I'm going to openly say it's not a good idea to judge anyone in this game for what their teammates are or aren't saying. It's a common tactic for experienced mafia in Team Mafia to muddy the waters of their reads and once again, evade accountability.
Also, I'd never weaponize hydra dissonance. How dare you.This is a Parachute.-
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I will attempt to do so, but cannot make promises. It's a subconscious process at this point.This is a Parachute.-
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I still scumread them. I'm aware peta offered a back down to let the thread develop more and I tend to agree that making this the peta and Jingle show would be bad for the game, but as of right now I'm definitely planning on going back there when I'm done poking other beehives.
I don't need a vote to poke people when I have my trusty gas powered stick.This is a Parachute.-
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If you're on desktop you can highlight a section and quote that section with the little tooltip, but mobile you just have to delete out the shit you don't want to quote.In post 225, Adorable wrote: Cerb has not been asking me good questions and these are the kind of questions that don't help on scum hunting. It looked like busywork to me. I would prefer players ask me question with a single quote and not a wallpost because I don't know how to edit the huge wall.This is a Parachute.-
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Mostly 42 and the leads rist, but wgeurtz is poking them in a way that I think fairly obviously won't encourage actually indicative interaction. Specifically for 42,In post 228, Cerberus v666 wrote: I believe wgeurts says this a bit later on, but I AM a very methodical player, quite conniving as any alignment, and certainly competent as scum(historically, who knows what the fuck I am now). An expression of paranoia without any action behind it seems...in character to me, given their history with me. I would expect also generic paranoia of me to be expressed by(limiting this to people who are involved in Team Mafia) Alisae, Firebringer, Frozen Angel, Mastina, and Titus, so I guess I feel like this is a me thing more than a scumtell/stretch on the part of people who have played with me many times.
Did I miss wgeurts pressing adorable, and if I did, what about it appears bad to you? With regards to peta's push, do you feel that peta's push was weak enough that wgeurts jumping in was an easy way to score brownie points with you? Or is there some other eye brow raising point?
The first bit would be fine on it's own and even slightly towny, (calling attention to specific people to ask for them to talk about them is a great way to get info out) but the latter half is aggressive and feels like wgeurtz has already made a judgment before looking at what content gets produced. Arguing that someone needs to have reasons for not having thoughts isn't going to suddenly make them have reasons for not having thoughts, but it is a decent setup for a push later on. Given the context of Adorable coming in with her LHF selflabel, the aggressiveness of the push is :eyebrows:.In post 42, wgeurts wrote: Thoughts on the interactions between me, Jingle, Cerb and Peta? Fine to have null reads, but you're going to need to elaborate why you have null reads.This is a Parachute.-
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I don't think you've played games with this account, but we've definitely played together and meshed well while I was on Bingle. I think I've also modded games you've been in and I've definitely reviewed and spectated games you've been in (I've modded more games than I've played and reviewed more games than is reasonable) although mostly on RR. The only individual reaction I can recall is the first game we played together where I accused you of being someone from my first on site game and it turned out it was just a similar username.In post 228, Cerberus v666 wrote: Jingle, did we ever actually play in any games together in the past? I know your name, but your last two listed strong points are basically my own and therefore I feel like I should know you better than I do.This is a Parachute.-
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I think peta's push was fairly obviously not going to lead anywhere at that point, but I don't think wgeurtz was actually trying to buddy me with the defense. I think it was more a posting for the sake of being seen doing something thing than any actual specific motivation. If wgeurts townread me and thought I was in danger defending me would make sense, but I don't think anyone would think I needed to be defended there. If wgeurtz was trying to read peta, I think letting peta push me and seeing their angle would be more useful in the long run. As it is, it's just fluff. It's a "I'm doing something!" post, but there's no real gain behind it which makes it easy for scum to fake.In post 228, Cerberus v666 wrote: peta's push was weak enough that wgeurts jumping in was an easy way to score brownie points with you? Or is there some other eye brow raising point?
Not a strong read by any metric, but I'm definitely giving wgeurts attention because of it.This is a Parachute.-
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You did.In post 233, Cerberus v666 wrote: did I?This is a Parachute.-
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You already addressed it in your first wall.In post 233, Cerberus v666 wrote: Hmm what post? I'll go look for it myself after this post probably, but in case I don't have something up before you get to this thread, please assist! I'm pretty sure you're talking about your sentiment that wgeurts' posting with regards to me was intended to make me look bad more so than anything else?This is a Parachute.-
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I feel a bit better about Adorable, HPE, and Cerbs. Rat still fine. I have a scumread on Fate, but Mena and DK agree that I might be insane. We'll see how this plays out.
Still feel scum overall on wgeurts and peta, but those should both cook without much effort.
Porkens, who are you most interested in sorting aorn?This is a Parachute.-
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wgeurtz linked TM2021. Honestly I wish I could find my notes from that game (I was feeding Ari thoughts constantly).In post 242, Adorable wrote: Where did you get this info from?This is a Parachute.-
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Was it GiF who suggested you take the double vote?This is a Parachute.-
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A mechanical thought occurs. It is possible that there is a role or roles that benefit from having powerups. It is possible that Adorable has one of these roles. I don't want Adorable to say whether this is the case. I'm mentioning this because at this point I don't particularly mind if scum kill adorable on the back of this speculation and I've decided I actually want the powerup awarded in case this is the case.
VOTE: Powerup: AdorableThis is a Parachute.-
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That's a loaded question. I am relatively strongly townreading adorable, but also I would probably be pro giving her the power even if I weren't.
Locking anything majorly significant behind a public use vote is kind of poor game design, and not something I'd expect from Cakez. Like... if scum needs a strongman or scumvig to be competitive and that's locked behind calling extra attention to themselves, that's a bad decision I think Cakez is better than making. If its moderate power, like a roleblock, then it sucks but it's not the end of the world if it turns on. If it's moderate townpower, like a tracker or a doctor we might lose adorable because I'm pointing scum at adorable by outing this, but I think it likely scum will just assume that it's not worth worrying over but also we wouldn't get the power anyway if I didn't make that post. If it's no power at all, scum might be swayed into shooting Adorable over someone who is more immediately threatening to them.
[p]253[/p] implies that there is a mechanical reason for wanting the power, and while GiF is a troll who might have told Adorable to go for the powerup because he knew/expected it was a waste of town's time, he's also a good enough mod that if there was a reason to want it he would definitely coach Adorable into trying for it at that point. And leaving which of those is actually the case openended is pretty obviously the right way to approach this as town.This is a Parachute.-
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
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I'm more concerned with the application of the tell this early. It was explicitly beetlejuicing, but beetlejuicing is really only a scumtell if it's a pattern of behavior.This is a Parachute.-
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I apologize if [p]257[/p] is hard to read, my sentences got away from me a bit. I can definitely take another crack at explaining that if someone needs me to.This is a Parachute.-
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THEY GOT RID OF SHORTHAND POST TAGS? YOU MONSTERS!This is a Parachute.-
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
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Kind of? I'm presenting multiple different choices to scum that will all have a visible impact on the game state. Based on what happens (Adorable is NK'd/elim'd and flips VT, Adorable is NK'd/elim'd and flips not VT, Adorable lives and claims a result, Adorable lives and doesn't claim a result, Adorable lives and claims that there was no real mechanical reason for the powerup grab) we have more to go on as to what scum thinks is going on, and if we can figure out what scum thinks is going on we can work from there to figure out what their plan is. If we know the scum plan, we can more accurately scumhunt. It's all about tailoring the game to a place where we CAN solve the game instead of just trying to solve the game from the opening of the thread.In post 263, Cat Scratch Fever wrote: Basically you value the opportunity to keep scum guessing?This is a Parachute.-
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I mean... first of all not necessarily. They could be worried about the NK/elim and hoping that the next powerup is something they might be able to get, which I think makes sense with the self perception of being limbait regardless of her alignment. Second of all, this plays into the whole "The type of role that would be locked behind a public vote is likely less powerful than something else due to the swing the lock introduces." bit I brought up.In post 264, Radical Rat wrote: Eh, I think if it were something actually important Adorable would have been pushing back harder against us abandoning the power up.This is a Parachute.-
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Showing up to the thread immediately after being talked about, specifically immediately after being called scum. It's named after the movie Beetlejuice.In post 267, wgeurts wrote: Okay what the hell is beetlejuicing
Also, as I said, it's not reliably scum indicative on it's own, but is worth noting, particularly in conjunction with things like active lurking and fluffposting.This is a Parachute.-
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Jingle For Whom the Bell Trolls
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This is actually why it was originally considered a scumtell, the popular thought being that someone who is watching the thread but not contributing is more likely to be scum because they're, you know, not contributing. As a standalone tell it tends to be completely worthless because plenty of people read the thread constantly without replying as town, and plenty of people reply to every little thing as scum.In post 272, HighPrincessErinys wrote: This one has been keeping a fairly close eye on the thread today so far aside from going outside a couple times, so its not exactly beetlejuicing it feels?
It's worth noting, because if ALL someone is doing is replying to the thread when they're brought up, it likely means they're not interested in solving the game and instead more interested in managing how people see them.
This has been Theory Time with Jingle, the part of the game where Jingle comes out and sings a silly song.This is a Parachute.-
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Koba townreads porkens and I'm vaguely sheeping that for now because I don't have a read of my own. I think Koba's Porkens read is a meta thing, but honestly we didn't spend much time on it before we moved on to other topics. Apparently it's a fairly confident read, which is good enough for D1 for me.In post 278, HighPrincessErinys wrote: Could folks give me their opinions on Fate and Porkens?
I have a scumread on Fate, but both Koba and Mena tell me my reasoning is weird. I'll make it public when fate has come around and done more.This is a Parachute.-
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