TM 2023 | Open: PYP S_TM | Endgame

[Rad]

Alright 1 day 13 hours left. I'm leaning on Ali's read here but you won't get any "I knew it!" from me if he flips town.

VOTE: Staeg

Still happy to jump on a Mena wagon

I don't love the Mara wagon but I get why Gimli's more interested in it than any other.

[Rad]

I don't think that puts you at E-1 Staeg.

[Rad]

Yeah gimli jumped off, it puts you at E-2 I think (Ali, Bella, Imag, Mara, Me)

[Rad]

Rad's Ali-sheeping and "you won't get any "I knew it!" from me if he flips town." is so bad.

It's true, I'm bad, I suck at this game. Does that move make me scum though?

[Rad]

Hells yeah let's hear this one lol

[Rad]

first game in 6 months, out of the gate with latest scum meta pocketing Ali owning everyone let's gooooooo!

[Rad]

Also there was a question somewhere and the answer was that rad independently scummy from imag and therefore we would be down to flip both of them even if one flips town

k there's your answer LLD

[Rad]

To summarise koba’s argument and to clarify an important point — rad is arguing that by saying that he’s pocketed ali, that means he must have snowed ali completely or whatever. No, I never said that, we just said he’s pocketed ali — koba believes he’s done this by stroking Ali’s ego (and jingle agrees and says that ali is susceptible to pockets like this) which is why they’ve been telling me to urge er to re-eval

They think that two things can be seen from looking at rad’s games. One is a trend of pocketing strong players when scum, and the second is a trend of having far more shallow analysis when scum

To the first point: koba would like everyone to look at this game (viewtopic.php?t=89776&user_select%5B%5D=36603) where rad pockets fancypants (an SE and therefore someone rad might be warier of) in a similar way to how he’s pocketed ali here — if you doubt this then search “fancy” there and see how the pattern of interaction looks compared to this game and ali

Also on this note, he’s absolutely trying to play down his ability as scum in this game by going “oh me? Little old me? Pocket someone? I could never uwu” (paraphrased) when his scumgames show that he has clear ability to do so

To the second point — look at an example of rad’s analysis in a towngame here (viewtopic.php?p=13494489#p13494489). Okay, done? Now look at his play in a scumgame here (viewtopic.php?p=13485793#p13485793). Yes, there are some superficial differences, but look at the level of the analysis actually being performed. Done? Now look at this (viewtopic.php?p=13754166#p13754166) and decide which one it’s more similar to

If you have time and want to do a more thorough dive then here’s his entire ISO link from that newbie scumgame to compare with his ISO in this game (viewtopic.php?t=89776&user_select%5B%5D=36603)

No mention of pocketing Furtive eh? I don't think I pocketed Fancy at all, but ok! I absolutely pocketed Furtive though.

[Rad]

Also @dats, koba wants to know what shea thinks about black not weighing in on rad’s game here

Black says she plans to read the game on Friday. Make of that what you will. CSF is catching up and Aureal is caught up.

[Rad]

Also on this note, he’s absolutely trying to play down his ability as scum in this game by going “oh me? Little old me? Pocket someone? I could never uwu” (paraphrased) when his scumgames show that he has clear ability to do so

lol

I think my scum game is better cause I'm just better at blending in than I am at solving

I did pocket a newbie Furtive, so that was fun. My plan was to let him be angry and not anger him. Pretty simple approach and it worked. If I was going to apply that here I'd have done so with LLD. But whatever you say koba!

[Rad]

Black says she'll be around for D2. Again, make of that what you will.

[Rad]

first game in 6 months, out of the gate with latest scum meta pocketing Ali owning everyone let's gooooooo!

Get a new line this one is tired

Eh to be fair, I misunderstood this:

The cliff notes is that rad is v much playing to scum meta apparently

I read that as me playing to whatever the latest scum meta is on the site (like e.g. a starcraft meta that everyone's using currently) which is a hilarious thought that I'd be super in tune with what scum are successfully doing lately, given I haven't played in 6 months. But he's just talking about thinking I'm aligned with my own previous scum meta. So ehhh it's actually a "new line" but I was misunderstanding the claim to begin with.

[Rad]

By my count you could easily flip me here

[Rad]

Csf caught up (kinda) and doesn't think either imaginality or staeg are scum either. But she specifically read only those isos and mara's to try to catch up in time. Thinks staeg is more scummy than either imaginality or mara but just because staeg is playing like she plays scum.

[Rad]

How about this. We kill imaginality here. If town, we kill between mith ceph and Mena tomorrow. If scum, you can kill me.

[Rad]

Is that a yes or an mmmm yeah I like that idea?

[Rad]

I tried a Mena flash wagon you up for it?

Pedit ah here comes the steag murder?

[Rad]

That was @ ceph

[Rad]

How about this. We kill imaginality here. If town, we kill between mith ceph and Mena tomorrow. If scum, you can kill me.

I dare anyone to come up with a mindset this post makes sense from other than knowing imaginality is town

Why suggest killing him if you're that sure he's town

We gotta kill someone no? I hear a no kill is bad for town, so sayeth my newbie games and lost. And since the three of you are in both my and imaginality's poe fuck it, time to gambit

[Rad]

I believe staeg essentially claimed as well to be fair, and if I misunderstood what he said then I lose my town read on him anyway

[Rad]

Where is your confidence in imaginality town coming from weren't you scumreading him like 15 pages ago

Never have I ever

[Rad]

I believe staeg essentially claimed as well to be fair, and if I misunderstood what he said then I lose my town read on him anyway

I have eyes too and I didn't post about it because I'm town

Like if my dumbass noticed it certainly scum + their 4 player teams did so??

[Rad]

You apparently believe those slots are both town with specific roles tho and I have a hard time believing you want to kill either of them if that's what you think is happening

I already said I don't want to kill either and that I town read both. I tried a mena flash wagon, and I've always been told that skipping a lim is a bad thing, and these are the 2 wagons that have a chance. You guys could probably flash wagon me successfully but other than that, those are our choices.

[Rad]

I think ceph and I have either seen the same thing and came to different conclusions, or saw different things, and Staeg you're suggesting neither of us saw anything that you intended as a soft claim. So I have no idea what to do or think about you at this point.

[Rad]

Just ignore it and also have you considered selfvoting

Nope <3

[Rad]

How about this. We kill imaginality here. If town, we kill between mith ceph and Mena tomorrow. If scum, you can kill me.

I dare anyone to come up with a mindset this post makes sense from other than knowing imaginality is town

Why suggest killing him if you're that sure he's town

This and the whole “I think Staeg is town but I’m following Alisae around like a lost puppy”. Eesh. Didn’t think I would be persuaded off imaginality, but here we are.

UNVOTE: imaginality
VOTE: RadVOTE:

It's true only scum would do that

[Rad]

I'll point something else out I just noticed, after discussing Mena with CSF, especially since I do not care about my future scum games and that gives me an advantage here.

If you like looking at my meta, here ya go. I'm significantly more active in town games.

Post count:
Newbie 2096 - Town - 329 (2nd of 9)
Newbie 2097 - Scum (rep in after d1) - 60 (8th of 9, and last was a lurker who repped out in final day)
Newbie 2099 - Scum - 152 (7th of 10)
Newbie 2101 - Town - (rep in after d1) - 151 (3rd of 9 but highest is 153 so pratically tied for #1 lol)
LOST - Town - 970 (5th of 26)

This game: So far 3rd behind LLD and Ali and 4th not even close

[Rad]

sorry correction: 2099 was 7/9 not 10

[Rad]

K planning on sleeping soon, wanted to say if a flash wagon on me does spring up tonight before I wake up, please let me respond before hammer <3 ty

[Rad]

Neat I'm not dead (yet).

What kind of psychotic world does a scum!rad not park his vote on one of staeg and imag and stfu and wait it out? Even in a scumteam of rad staeg imag it makes no sense to not just bus one and gain town cred, and in a rad + one of staeg imag team why the fuck wouldn't I just sit on the town and wait?

[Rad]

Yeah staeg should have jumped to me if scum

UNVOTE:

Run me up soon if you guys are going to so I can claim and you can make your decision with enough time

[Rad]

Ali gimli staeg is my town core right now

[Rad]

Mena pushing so hard on me as to recruit people one by one is going to look really bad when I flip town, so maybe that's uninformed town

Mith blending in with an easy vote on me.

Ceph's reaction to my staeg soft claim suggestion felt townie but I also don't see why he believes it's scummy for me to have mentioned it.

[Rad]

Run me up soon if you guys are going to so I can claim and you can make your decision with enough time

If you plan on claiming, you can claim right now if you really want because you are likely the elim people are very likely to just vote you.

If Staeg is not happening tbh I'm just going to go back to Imaginality.

No not yet. I'll be refreshing throughout today so if it gets close I'll do it then.

[Rad]

Staeg might be playing it cool?

I feel like with the recent flurry of town-town reads on me and Staeg, either Staeg is scum, or scum are already fully on our wagons (these possibilities are not mutually exclusive, in fact I think both are true).

From others' perspective (you don't know I'm town I think you should also question this idea that it's TvT. Because similar to what Rad said about what he'd have done if scum: if Staeg and I are TvT with me claimed UB and Staeg high in draft, I think scum would've pushed one or the other of us over the edge by now? I don't think scum pass up the chance to kill either one of us.

I'm wondering if some of the movement away to Rad etc was prompted by Staeg buddies who got nervous when they could see the me v Staeg ending in Staeg rather than me getting limmed as they were hoping. So are trying to find a different mislim.

This is a great point and has me thinking about a different solve.

[Rad]

Then mena joined rad. Mena is probably the town in this lol

I agree with this

Ali look at the wagons and consider this perspective: scum is in {mith, ceph, staeg, lld}

At the height we have: imaginality (5): mith, Cephrir, Staeg, Datisi, Menalque

LLD announces 1 more and she'll hammer.

In a town!Imaginality world... sec let me continue after I post

not going to post this later as it'll look like I'm just using LLD here because she just voted me, so let me continue this post after I post this much

[Rad]

Anyway, I'll continue now...

Then mena joined rad. Mena is probably the town in this lol

I agree with this

Ali look at the wagons and consider this perspective: scum is in {mith, ceph, staeg, lld}

At the height we have: imaginality (5): mith, Cephrir, Staeg, Datisi, Menalque

LLD announces 1 more and she'll hammer.

In a town!Imaginality world...

one of the following need to jump on Imag to make the kill:

Alisae, Bellaphant, Rad, Ythan, Mara, Gimli

None of us do. So town!imaginality mislim is out of the question.

Staeg's wagon however does pick up:

Staeg (6): Alisae, Bellaphant, imaginality, Marashu, Rad, Gimli

In this scenario, that's pure town.

Off wagon we still have Menalque Datisi and Ythan. Staeg could easily be the flip here if they're not careful and there's a ton of suspicion about me going around. Ceph has even started a fuck it wagon on me and by my count at that time, I could see the following switching their vote to me:

Mara, Staeg, Datisi, Menalque, Mith, LLD

Mith slides onto my wagon ezmode and Mena goes to bat for scum. Scum can just sit back and watch me burn here with Mena taking the blame.

Now LLD has jumped on to keep the momentum going.

Never 4 but fuck #5 draws the line at mith.

The change of wagon from Imag to me makes sense in a scum!Staeg world and much less sense in a TvT Staeg vs Imag world

Ythan here is just stubborn town that found scum and refuses to interact until that scum is dead.

[Rad]

Looking for feedback from my town people in this read:

Ali, Bella, Mena, Mara, Imag, Gimli, Datisi, Ythan

[Rad]

If I had a dayvig with 3 shots today, I would have shot rad, asked him his highest town read, shot them, then shot rad again just to rub it the fuck in.

ngl I love this post

[Rad]

Ali

gimli

staeg is my town core right now

This is a weird fucking addition

nah I get my reads primarily based on how they interact with my slot, specifically with regards to timing and gimli has consistently defended me when it would be bad timing for scum to do so.

[Rad]

I'm pretty sure it's at least 4 on rad bc mith/ceph/me/you

yeah 4 sounds right

[Rad]

Datisi please read my thoughts here before committing to voting me:

viewtopic.php?p=13755837#p13755837

[Rad]

Datisi's vote puts me as a likely lim here. Staeg Mara please do not quick hammer me and let me claim if you intend to vote me.

[Rad]

Mena do you read me scum or are you leaning heavily on your teammates?

[Rad]

Ali

gimli

staeg is my town core right now

This is a weird fucking addition

It feels weirder that it came after I dropped some shade on rad.

I'm so fucking confused. The last three pages I've flipped my read on you, lld, like three times.

The timing of the shade had me concerned. Not the shade itself. In fact you reading me town instead of scum is more sus to me than visa versa, but you reading me town previously and beginning to shade me when the tides were turning against me felt opportunistic.

That said I think my theory is correct and you're just town

[Rad]

Datisi please read my thoughts here before committing to voting me:

viewtopic.php?p=13755837#p13755837

ok i read it

it's a cool theory and all, but it does nothing to actually convince me that the premises - scum in lld/ceph/mith/staeg - are actually true. it's just assuming those premises based on ~things~ that i don't agree on.

but i do have issues with the conclusion as well. the idea is, what. staeg was vaguely scummy but not really, and a pure town wagon of 6 town members just so happened to appear on them? and THEN, scum is all working in tandem to save their ass?

and the thing is, if a scumteam is something like lld/ceph/mith/staeg - well first of all we're fucked (idk about staeg but afaik the others are Good). second of all, i don't think i could ever figure out someone like that on d1. third, i don't think the gamestate would've gotten so fucked for them that they have to panic save their own teammate like this.

Ok so you're sticking with your vote on me? I was hoping you'd be town reading me here so I wouldn't have to claim since I consider you one of the tipping point slots for whether I get limmed here or not.

[Rad]

Mena do you read me scum or are you leaning heavily on your teammates?

kinda both? I now scum read you myself but obviously that's been heavily informed by Koba's case and I'm aware that I could be confbiasing on how I've been perceiving both you and imag from what koba/jingle said beforehand. jingle is slightly less involved in the game than koba, so kinda trusting him to act as a break on the confbias if that's what he sees it as or if he thinks the mech we're using is sus

I didn't like your shift from having me as strong town lean --> scum --> back to town, or the way you went about me saying that koba/jingle thought you were pocketing Ali

the fact you jumped to immediately characterise it as your scumgame not being good enough/you not being able to pocket a player that strong by snowing them instead of asking me why they thought you were pocketing er pinged me quite hard because I think it was a very uncharitable way of approaching a suggestion from a slot you were supposedly strongly town leaning at that point, and that's probably the main individual reason why I like you for scum rn outside of anything koba/jingle have said

I'm easily convinced that people who are being reasonable and respectful are town. I know that about myself so I tend to second guess slots that I feel fit into that paradigm. With your teammates attacking me for what I know is ridiculous, you swung hard from one of my top town reads to wtf is this shit must be scum how did I misread him so hard. Hope that makes sense.

[Rad]

Ali

gimli

staeg is my town core right now

This is a weird fucking addition

It feels weirder that it came after I dropped some shade on rad.

I'm so fucking confused. The last three pages I've flipped my read on you, lld, like three times.

The timing of the shade had me concerned. Not the shade itself. In fact you reading me town instead of scum is more sus to me than visa versa, but you reading me town previously and beginning to shade me when the tides were turning against me felt opportunistic.

That said I think my theory is correct and you're just town

Yeah, but no? That post about hyper posting really pinged klick,, can you talk more about it?

Also, why gimli? I'd vig the slot (and ythan) to put out of misery

Gimli's all about the timing of his defense of my slot.

Let me explain the hyper posting thought. First, consider a scum!Rad scenario with that. Either scum!Rad decides to just go all out and play way differently here, posting like crazy like he's never done with the intent to one day point out how that's super townie of him, or he did that naturally and noticed "wow i'm posting like crazy and that's usually something only town me does! let me point it out!". Both of those scenarios seem ridiculous to me, but ok, that's your call.

Town!Rad notices people are focusing heavily on his meta and missing something that's quite obvious about his meta.

So he goes through and sorts and counts his games:

bulba - 456
juice - 270
fancy - 258
elemk - bbt - 183
spartan - 178
alwaysnever - flower - 156
rad - 152
cat.jpeg - 49
goldfish - 16

koba - 329
hem - 269
whiskey - bbt - 266
furtive - 243
bell - 149
rce - 139
take - 91
rad - 60 (+10 rep out)
TL - drap - 30

Yeah ok, I should point this out! So I compile all my games and come up with the results.

I get that it's wifomy but tbh when have I ever not been wifomy in any of my town games?

The whole thought process was spurred by me and CSF discussing how Ali and LLD have been dominating the game with post count, and then I noticed I was actually 3rd so we laughed and I did my investigation.

[Rad]

Ali

gimli

staeg is my town core right now

This is a weird fucking addition

nah I get my reads primarily based on how they interact with my slot, specifically with regards to timing and gimli has consistently defended me when it would be bad timing for scum to do so.

i

if you're town this is a horrible way to read people, it's so open for abuse i ahhhh

yeah maybe but it's specifically a timing thing and I have found town with it in the past. So it's basically the only tool I have in my toolbelt that's ever produced anything correct, aside from listening to dead town reads.

[Rad]

Staeg it is then

VOTE: Staeg

[Rad]

That's E-2 on Staeg

[Rad]

What's there to follow up on? No one took the offer. You want me to pester people about it?

[Rad]

@mena

[Rad]

Ok well believe whatever you want, I can't change your mind so enjoy!

[Rad]

How would eod chaos benefit scum when the 3 people up for lim are all probably town? Just throw out your ideas so people can consider them, and beside if you're town surely scum will consider killing you tonight

[Rad]

What's there to follow up on? No one took the offer. You want me to pester people about it?

Why make that offer at all? If you are town, what was your thought process?

No one was paying attention to my scum reads so I wanted to gamble on imaginality being town so the focus could correct itself in the direction I believed in.

[Rad]

Ayyy you guys stop being so funny now

[Rad]

Ayyy you guys stop being so funny now

[Rad]

Whoops phone double post

[Rad]

Don't quick hammer me thx

[Rad]

Staeg will vote me so question is if lld will. I'll claim if lld says she will

[Rad]

Alternately I'll vote imag and I believe he's ok with that cause he's smart town

[Rad]

Claim

Keep doing scum's job for them

[Rad]

Fuck off mena I literally told everyone to do this shit earlier and no one fucking did except ceph and mith. Not my fault if everyone wants to flash wagon me before bed. I'm waiting for lld

[Rad]

Ali you want me to claim I will

[Rad]

I'm doc. Gg. Now murder me because you believe I'm trying to out real doc, and then murder imag when he picks up doc

[Rad]

Look harder at mith ceph staeg lld tomorrow please

[Rad]

No crumbs. This is literally the first pr I have gotten on this site (and only once before on a different site). Crumbs probably a good idea huh. Oh well I'm bad

[Rad]

Can you be more specific with your question Mena? I made the post so I could explain my thoughts out loud with the game.

[Rad]

Also it's been really fucking annoying that 1-4 was Don't kill! And me at 5 with fucking doc was fuck that guy!

[Rad]

I wanted to not be the nk so I held back a little less than is usually hold back, but my normal town game would have probably been scummy enough and not gotten me limmed. Owell

[Rad]

Mara yes staeg has been on the block for some time now, but the general idea has been don't lim top 4 and when talking about potentially running up gimli.

[Rad]

As in, that seems like a funny thing to post as town doc

Like why would you think that imag dies when you are the doc?

And you could be on… the role you believe is likely to be a town pr by the time he’d be a good kill target… when you could just prevent that?

I'm what world would I protect imag?

[Rad]

Mara yes staeg has been on the block for some time now, but the general idea has been don't lim top 4 and when talking about potentially running up gimli.

Ebwop Even* when taking about

[Rad]

Man I hate phone posting

[Rad]

You think he’d be a good NK target on N2 or something and you literally said so yet if he would be a good NK target and you’re a doc so you believe scum would think he was a good value kill, why would you not just go on him there to protect him and deny scum a kill?

I'm expecting they will target the cop if one exists, which is ascetic or whatever and I can't protect that.

[Rad]

No crumbs. This is literally the first pr I have gotten on this site (and only once before on a different site). Crumbs probably a good idea huh. Oh well I'm bad

why doctor

I have never been a nk cause my town game is scummy, and I think I might be able to pick a good protect target, especially when I have a team to help me figure it out

[Rad]

5 I think

[Rad]

Thought you were asking about vote count on me, sorry

[Rad]

VOTE: Mith

my legacy <3

[Rad]

what's lolcat, sounds fun

[Rad]

LLD i already claimed lol

[Rad]

but like, don't bother keeping up with the thread, that's fine

[Rad]

what's lolcat, sounds fun

its basically when you opt to troll and fluff post because you're a wolf and you're always dying

Ooooh, well I'm town and definitely dying so is that the same thing?

[Rad]

oh, then i'm killing Rad today because that claim is uh oh stinky haha pooooo and even if it's real it feeds it to imaginality theoretically which leaves ? for the scum team

i think?

that confidence that imag is town, i love it

[Rad]

Like, I'm trying to think what is a "good claim" that Rad potentially makes that saves them if they are mafia and I am drawing blanks

probably something less awesome than doc since I knew my claiming doc would likely get me murdered anyway, so as to "save the real doc from counter-claiming"

I really, really didn't want to have to claim today cause I knew that meant I just die here

[Rad]

Doctor falling to 5 is ??? and the concept that this person played today like they did while holding a doctor role is ???

i was surprised when i got it as well. I figured I'd try for doc, cause it should have fit my playstyle better than other options, and if it didn't fall through I'd know there's probably a doc above me and me being a VT is probably best for town anyway.

[Rad]

the role you draft SHOULD impact how you play, in some capacity

It did and I mentioned that here:

I wanted to not be the nk so I held back a little less than is usually hold back, but my normal town game would have probably been scummy enough and not gotten me limmed. Owell

No crumbs. This is literally the first pr I have gotten on this site (and only once before on a different site). Crumbs probably a good idea huh. Oh well I'm bad

why doctor

I have never been a nk cause my town game is scummy, and I think I might be able to pick a good protect target, especially when I have a team to help me figure it out

[Rad]

Doctor falling to 5 is ??? and the concept that this person played today like they did while holding a doctor role is ???

can you explain this logic more indepth? I think Doctor in this setup is one of those roles where it's not high prio because I imagine town probably wants to take the 1-shot vig and cop off the table as soon as they could. It's like the first "middle of the ground" roles that get picked up

Why do you think their play is questionable while holding a doctor? They're a newer player who hasn't gotten a PR before. Like what are you expecting from them?

Doctor is high prio because the other side of Doctor is Roleblocker which is the single most premium scum role in the setup.

I raised this question about roleblocker, because my instinct was that since i got doc maybe no one above me is scum since RB seems like it would be a top pick, but my team believed that there were a lot of good scum roles to pick from and that RB wasn't necessarily the top pick

[Rad]

weird of you to do the hammer when you specifically wanted someone else to hammer, but <3 anyway

GL town

remember { ceph, mith, staeg, lld }

[Rad]

spoiler i'm town

[Rad]

Fwiw I had Bella down as the immediate imag partner, but the timing of the unvote makes this feeling shakier; if imag is town I really don't like where Ythan's at

are you saying you didn't scum read me?

[Rad]

Enjoy your d2 mena/koba

[Rad]

ya actually what the fuck am i saying people should just place votes and whatever happens happens.

I strongly agree, especially as it pertains to Mara and Gimli

Also I'm not claiming today even if the alternative is limming in case anyone was waiting on that to inform their vote

I took this as a vt claim having picked the same thing as ythan and not wanting to out them in case they were town btw. I'm curious if ceph also had that impression or if not, what did he see?

GG! Nice job town. Nice play Ali, had me completely fooled. I had gimli early but let him pocket me even with recognizing it was probably him pocketing me. I wanted mith to be scum so bad lol. This was not a game where I'd have benefited town so probably heavily +town that I was first lim

[Rad]

Hah all good koba. I come up with stupid ideas as town and got all excited that I was finally a pr.

[Rad]

Btw what's up with those night kills? Staeg and mara? I'm still confused.